Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: Buzz on February 27, 2013, 10:22:19 AM
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I was having some banter on twitter with B3 last night and they call themselves batmakers - which is technically true as they make bats... but for some reason it grated with me.
I think the reason for this is that to me they are not pod shavers - which I consider someone who hand makes bats the traditional way - but they didn't say they were, so I can't complain.
I am not sure where that leaves others who use CNC machines, of which there are several, to make their bats but what do you think are the right way to define the difference?
Please don't get me wrong, I have no issue with machine made bats, I really think it is a great way to make bats - I also really love a traditional hand made bat - this isn't about a preference between the two, more a question of how do we think we should define the different techniques.
Am I being too pedantic?
Does it even matter?
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Bat Manufacturer might be more appropriate for people that use CNC. Yes they make bats, but not in a traditional sense. They use a modern, machine manufactured process, as opposed to say H4L, who do things by hand
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Who are the best podshavers in the world?
James Laver? Uses a copy lathe.
Tim Keeley? Uses a CNC machine.
Julian Millichamp? Imports part mades from India.
Depends where you draw the line, as always.
I guess a podshaver is the traditional term, and should as such be given to someone who can make a bat from scratch. Batmaker is just a guy/brand who makes bats in any fashion.
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I think they're positives for both. No two completely hand mad bats will be the same, similar but not identical. However, cnc'd bats will be mm perfect. So if your making volume profiles then that's the way to go. I personally feel that hand made are more personal to the person making and the customer but as you say buzz there's no right or wrong answer.
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Indeed - I prefer to avoid purely CNC bats because in the weights I tend to use you get stitched with the most dense clefts, but that doesn't mean that they are pure evil, it just means that they are not the best choice for me.
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My only issue with CNC bats is cost. I would never pay a premium price for a bat made by a machine on a production line. I'm happy to pay a premium for a 'proper' batmakers bat as I find it easier to justify the cost as I appreciate the time and effort put into the product.
Is one better than the other? Probably not! But if we are to ensure that the future of batmaking lies in the skills of the 'podshaver' rather than a computer programmer then we should support the guys doing it by hand. Having said that, when the cost value of a CNC bat is truly reflected in it's RRP then I imagine I'll be first in the queue for one!
Both 'make' bats but only one 'crafts' a bat imo.
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which one is more commercially viable?
money will always rule all!
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thats a valid point - CNC should not be used as a means of artificially inflating prices - yes GM, that does mean you!
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My only issue with CNC bats is cost. I would never pay a premium price for a bat made by a machine on a production line. I'm happy to pay a premium for a 'proper' batmakers bat as I find it easier to justify the cost as I appreciate the time and effort put into the product.
Is one better than the other? Probably not! But if we are to ensure that the future of batmaking lies in the skills of the 'podshaver' rather than a computer programmer then we should support the guys doing it by hand. Having said that, when the cost of a CNC bat is truly reflected in it's RRP then I imagine I'll be first in the queue for one!
Both 'make' bats but only one 'crafts' a bat imo.
What he said!
But I completely understand why people use copy lathes, if you imagine making a lot of bats by hand you've got to take some of the donkey work from it IMO, and having something taken down to a part made takes some of that out.
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Both 'make' bats but only one 'crafts' a bat imo.
...and there you have it...
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which one is more commercially viable?
money will always rule all!
Cnc is more viable for mass production. Time is money after all!
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Cnc is more viable for mass production. Time is money after all!
Plus people are more expensive than machines! :(
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CNC was more expensive than handcrafting when I was doing maths for outsourcing (but may be cheaper if in house), but CNC won over due to the uniformity. If you have 100 bats on one shelf you want them to look as similar as possible.
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Julian Millichamp? Imports part mades from India.
I didn't know this - has this been discussed before?
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I didn't know this - has this been discussed before?
Yes.
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I didn't know this - has this been discussed before?
He's doing it now he's getting on a bit I believe.
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So which brands in the UK make truly handmade bats, then?
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CNC was more expensive than handcrafting when I was doing maths for outsourcing (but may be cheaper if in house), but CNC won over due to the uniformity. If you have 100 bats on one shelf you want them to look as similar as possible.
CNC in the UK is likely to be no cheaper than handcrafted on the sub-continent at the same volume of production due to both capital and operational costs onshore and labour arbitrage. Whilst the labour rate for IT and Business related tasks is getting steadily more expensive, I'd be surprised if it has increased much for batmakers. If you want to sell your product as Handmade, then you may well choose the outsourced option...
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So which brands in the UK make truly handmade bats, then?
Hell 4 Leather
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If you was to be picky is there any bat maker in the world that does not use a machine for any part of batmaking? I.e cutting the splice , sanding etc ? A true handmade bat would be made with no machine work?
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If you was to be picky is there any bat maker in the world that does not use a machine for any part of batmaking? I.e cutting the splice , sanding etc ? A true handmade bat would be made with no machine work?
You beat me to it. Define what you mean by handmade?
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The price to make a true handmade bat would be outrageous, even down to cutting the tree ,would it have to be done by hand?
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it basically comes down to time and money :)
cheaper to make a bat when u just buy the cleft.. and do everything your self..
but very time consuming slightly more expensive if u use cnc/copy lath, but can get more volume done so more sales!
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If you was to be picky is there any bat maker in the world that does not use a machine for any part of batmaking? I.e cutting the splice , sanding etc ? A true handmade bat would be made with no machine work?
This is a reasonable comment and one I hadn't considered.
For the purposes of this, I am talking about shaping by hand, rather than by machine.
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Many years ago, perhaps 20, i had to meet up with some friends at Crown Sports in Dewsbury. I got chatting to the then owner Colin Easton. They were currently machining splicing and pressing a large consignment of bats from a very well known bat maker.
I was gutted, i think i then realised that the maker i had always aspired to actually was maybe using maybe just clever marketing to sell his product. How naive i was.
Nothing illegal, no lies, just clever marketing. But to me it was just a little smoke and mirrors.
Having said that Colin working was a joy to behold, what a knife man. He was a true craftsman of the highest order, and to a young bat maker like me, some one to truly admire.
One of several in West Yorks in those days, Alf Evans was another. No fancy stickers, no marketing, no blarney, no thick edges or concave backs. Just proper time served craftsmen who made proper bats either for the stars or village cricketers. All great stuff, but sadly gone.
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I was having some banter on twitter with B3 last night and they call themselves batmakers - which is technically true as they make bats... but for some reason it grated with me.
I think the reason for this is that to me they are not pod shavers - which I consider someone who hand makes bats the traditional way - but they didn't say they were, so I can't complain.
I am not sure where that leaves others who use CNC machines, of which there are several, to make their bats but what do you think are the right way to define the difference?
Please don't get me wrong, I have no issue with machine made bats, I really think it is a great way to make bats - I also really love a traditional hand made bat - this isn't about a preference between the two, more a question of how do we think we should define the different techniques.
Am I being too pedantic?
Does it even matter?
Not sure it matters to the masses, i think its a little bit more romantic beleiving you have got a hand made bat.
One question, can GM, B3 or TK make a bat by hand? If so they become both, just for business reasons they cnc. Just a shame this mass producing isn't reflected in the price.
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One question, can GM, B3 or TK make a bat by hand?
GM - Yes, B3 - I have no idea, TK yes
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Slightly off topic but I have been think about machine made bats lately and this maybe stating the obvious but you would typically never get a bat that is exceptionally huge for its weight in medium to heavy range would you? machine would basically cut out the same dimensions everytime so all bats are exactly the same spec but weight is different.. so unless you use a light bat machine ones would never be huge...
Anyone that can make a bat by hand although uses some machines is a podshaver to me...
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Many years ago, perhaps 20, i had to meet up with some friends at Crown Sports in Dewsbury. I got chatting to the then owner Colin Easton. They were currently machining splicing and pressing a large consignment of bats from a very well known bat maker.
I was gutted, i think i then realised that the maker i had always aspired to actually was maybe using maybe just clever marketing to sell his product. How naive i was.
Nothing illegal, no lies, just clever marketing. But to me it was just a little smoke and mirrors.
Having said that Colin working was a joy to behold, what a knife man. He was a true craftsman of the highest order, and to a young bat maker like me, some one to truly admire.
One of several in West Yorks in those days, Alf Evans was another. No fancy stickers, no marketing, no blarney, no thick edges or concave backs. Just proper time served craftsmen who made proper bats either for the stars or village cricketers. All great stuff, but sadly gone.
plenty of yorkshire bat makers 20 years ago!
Eric loxton
Richard Wensley
Colin Easton
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GM - Yes, B3 - I have no idea, TK yes
Yes they can there ex gm batmaker can
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Thing about CNC made bats is that a computer can bang out exact replica's in so fast a time that the market doesn't allow for bulk suppliers to make bats by hand. Unless you have an army of batmakers under one roof!
Having said that one of the nicest bats I have used was a GM Luna 606, £95 and went like the eurostar!
I do like the feel of a GM bat, they are always neat and tidy and there is an amount of care that goes into making them. Currently I am using a Kooka Rogue that is also a lovely bat to use, wouldn't mind one day having a handmade bat though.... :-[
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So which brands in the UK make truly handmade bats, then?
Very few that I know off
Salix - Andrew Kember
H4L - Matt Barden
Choice Willow - Gary Sandford
By this I mean the shaping, rasping of the handle, shaping of the shoulders etc. These 3 can do this from a raw cleft to my knowledge I expect there are others.
I personally agree with most on here. I wouldn't not buy a bat tht gas been CNC made but I wouldn't pay a heavy premium for one when the companies above will offer you a fully customised service for the same price and indeed less at times.
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Chase do everything....... ;)
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So do Crown Sports in the north east :)
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So do Crown Sports in the north east :)
Who? Never heard of them before! May have to have a little google search.
Forgot about dan at chase
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Theyre in Boldon in the North East mate, theyre great bats and you can go and get the full boutique experience seeing the bat being made etc! As far as im aware for that experience its pretty cheap compared to other brands and ping really nicely!
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Just finalised a couple of RK bats from Ryan on the forum and from what I have seen and heard he may need to be added to the list of bat makers.
I look foward to recieving these.
Just checked the Crown website and its down :(
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It all comes down to what u class as a bat maker. Like Ryan I can't press but I can handle, cut to length, shape shoulders and produce a bat from a pressed cleft. I've not seen any of Ryan's work first hand but pictures and feedback look good so sure your gonna get a couple of beauties there
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I thought Pod Shaving was a term used to describe the techniques used to make a cricket bat; drawknife, spokeshaves etc, mainly Hand Made or Shaped. To me a Bat Maker is the same thing, hand work.
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Tony at Warsop makes his by hand.
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Very few that I know off
Salix - Andrew Kember
H4L - Matt Barden
Choice Willow - Gary Sandford
By this I mean the shaping, rasping of the handle, shaping of the shoulders etc. These 3 can do this from a raw cleft to my knowledge I expect there are others.
I personally agree with most on here. I wouldn't not buy a bat tht gas been CNC made but I wouldn't pay a heavy premium for one when the companies above will offer you a fully customised service for the same price and indeed less at times.
Interesting subject. We make everything from scratch apart from the handles which are made for us but we are looking into that now. We press everything ourselves too. Machines do a good job when making bats. My feeling is and I may be wrong that some clefts may now require to be made in exactly the shape the CNC I programmed to as every cleft has different properties so can that be allowed for by a machine, I don't know I doubt it because when making by hand you are permanently evaluating the cleft as you go along. Yes you are keeping to your desired shape but slight changes are made to get exactly what you are looking for in that cleft.
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Julian selects EVERY cleft from JS Wrights himself, sends them to India where he gets the clefts handled and pressed in a factory that he help set up using the old Stuart Surridge press. These handled clefts are shipped out to him and weigh around 3.10 pounds. He made me a bat this afternoon in less that 2 hours that is an absolute pinger and picks up a dream! There is no money in rough sawing the clefts and putting the handles in. If you could witness what I experienced this afternoon watching an absolute Master at work, you would understand why he is considered one of the best in the World by a long shot! He used nothing but a draw knife, hand planer and some sanding and polishing wheels. Incredible!
Ticked off my bucket list....!
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Julian selects EVERY cleft from JS Wrights himself, sends them to India where he gets the clefts handled and pressed in a factory that he help set up using the old Stuart Surridge press. These handled clefts are shipped out to him and weigh around 3.10 pounds. He made me a bat this afternoon in less that 2 hours that is an absolute pinger and picks up a dream! There is no money in rough sawing the clefts and putting the handles in. If you could witness what I experienced this afternoon watching an absolute Master at work, you would understand why he is considered one of the best in the World by a long shot! He used nothing but a draw knife, hand planer and some sanding and polishing wheels. Incredible!
Ticked off my bucket list....!
I seriously hope you were there with your camera/video camera and give us a blow by blow/ shaving by shaving account...
please!!
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I seriously hope you were there with your camera/video camera and give us a blow by blow/ shaving by shaving account...
please!!
If there's no evidence, it didn't happen and you were just dreaming! ;)
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Very few that I know off
Salix - Andrew Kember
H4L - Matt Barden
Choice Willow - Gary Sandford
By this I mean the shaping, rasping of the handle, shaping of the shoulders etc. These 3 can do this from a raw cleft to my knowledge I expect there are others.
I personally agree with most on here. I wouldn't not buy a bat tht gas been CNC made but I wouldn't pay a heavy premium for one when the companies above will offer you a fully customised service for the same price and indeed less at times.
You say this but don't you have a B3 and several GM's?
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"I wouldn't not buy a bat that has been CNC made"
Double negative there, mate - Wouldn't not
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What about M&H? I've heard from some that they make and press all of their bats where others have said they basically shape pre-mades. Anyone know the REAL answer?
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What about M&H? I've heard from some that they make and press all of their bats where others have said they basically shape pre-mades. Anyone know the REAL answer?
It's definitely one of the two you mentioned mate (unless they use a different method than people think) ;)
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So which brands in the UK make truly handmade bats, then?
Charlie French. He even does his own handles from scratch
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