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General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: uknsaunders on December 17, 2013, 04:22:48 PM
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Cook has lost 3 tosses. England have bowled first 3 times. Seamers haven't been maintaining pressure and Swann bowls Day 1. 2nd Innings England have a huge deficit thanks to rubbish batting and it's still day 3. Sorry to point out the obvious but a spinner needs a bit more to work with. Monty has an advantage to the right handers but not much if you bowl days 1-3 mainly and the oppo are under no pressure whatsoever.
Lyon benefited from crap batting under pressure, though he did seem to get more out of the pitch 1st innings at the Gabba.
Finger firmly pointing at the batsman and possibly at our seamers. Losing the toss doesn't help - #cooksfault
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Wouldn't disagree with much of that but I think you would also have to concede that Swann's bowling has looked unimaginative for a bowler of his perceived class (ditto for Jimmy). However, it's difficult to conjure something from nothing without batsmen making unforced errors as you have already commented with Lyon.
Swann has contained well at times. Nasser's 'analysis' comparing the two spinners (admittedly more in terms of how both sets of batsmen played them than how they had bowled) made me laugh though; Lyon apparently had England's batsmen mesmerised while Australia had taken the attack to Swann, even though he was going at 2s while they tried to mount a lead until Watson went berserk! In that sense, I agree that the seamers have not done the perception of his performance any favours
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Think coaches maybe missed a trick and should have worked on gettiing overspin as this was what caused the problems for us not the amount of sidespin?
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As I'm far from an expert on spin bowling, could anyone more informed please give an opinion on whether Warne's analysis earlier in the series highlighting Lyon's superior seam position on release holds much weight? Might it account for the lack of 'bite' evident in Swann's efforts so far?
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Maybe his elbow hasn't healed properly?
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I'm not sure about the seam position per se, but it has been clear throughout that Swann was looking for ripping turn and Lyon bowling for check spin and bounce. As such, their game plans have been very different.
The toss is an interesting point here - three tosses in a row and all of them were good ones to win as they allowed the Australian batsmen to avoid the scoreboard pressure which routinely killed them in India and England. I don't think its as easy as to say that that advantage gifted Australia the series - I think England would have looked tired and short of firepower in either event - but it has definitely magnified the perception of difference between the teams. Swann is not the only bowler affected -Tremlett in the first game and Bresnan in this would have benefitted from batsmen looking for opportunities that were not there - and it has been difficult for some of the English batsmen too.
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I'm sure he knows more about it than most (including me) . From what I have read from other great spinners, dropping the ball onto the deck and the amount of revolutions count for a lot as well.
My original point, as a spinner at club level, is it's awfully hard work when the oppo are racing along as 100-0 off 20 compared to being 50-5. If teams have to block for dear life or chase the game from a bad situation as a spinner you are more likely to pick up wickets.
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Bit contentious maybe, but from the bits I've seen so far, the best Swann bowled was in tandem with Monty.
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Cooks fault is being a bit harsh. Tossing a coin, as much as we'd hate to admit it, is completely 50/50. Cook may be losing the toss, but it's hardly his fault that he is unlucky!
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in anything other than English conditions that has tended to be the way - Panesar is a specialist at blocking up an end for overs, sessions even days on end and that allows Swann to come into the attack at times of his choosing and unfurl his bag of tricks.
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Maybe his elbow hasn't healed properly?
rumours persist about him retiring in the next 18 months for that reason. I think he's 34 now but given the longevity of spinners surely another 5 years isn't impossible. Ajmal is 36 btw and showing no signs of slowing up.
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Cooks fault is being a bit harsh. Tossing a coin, as much as we'd hate to admit it, is completely 50/50. Cook may be losing the toss, but it's hardly his fault that he is unlucky!
maybe but it has a huge bearing on any spinner taking wickets. It doesn't excuse Swann from criticism but he would of been very much in the game bowling last in any of those tests.
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rumours persist about him retiring in the next 18 months for that reason. I think he's 34 now but given the longevity of spinners surely another 5 years isn't impossible. Ajmal is 36 btw and showing no signs of slowing up.
It's constantly said he won't be around for 2015, I'd imagine his elbow is (No Swearing Please). Cooks back I'd also a concern if that's persistsnt.
Tbh, bowlers haven't performed as they should BUT they've had little rest in each game, been hampered by drops, mis stumpings etc and of course when the batsmen collapse and surrender the initiative so regularly eventually they will just mentally not be 'up for it'
Like everything in sport and life, it's easy to be good when all goes well .. Much harder when all is falling around you. WARNE IN 2005 showed the mental resolve when all around him failed
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It's constantly said he won't be around for 2015, I'd imagine his elbow is (No Swearing Please). Cooks back I'd also a concern if that's persistsnt.
Tbh, bowlers haven't performed as they should BUT they've had little rest in each game, been hampered by drops, mis stumpings etc and of course when the batsmen collapse and surrender the initiative so regularly eventually they will just mentally not be 'up for it'
Like everything in sport and life, it's easy to be good when all goes well .. Much harder when all is falling around you. WARNE IN 2005 showed the mental resolve when all around him failed
Woah there with complaints about the bowlers... While they've managed to reduce the batting to <150 in the first innings for around , we've then had no idea how to prize nuggety wickets out, bowlers or captain.
Then we've scored next to nothing, giving the bowlers half a day to recover before asking them to go out and do it all again, but slightly more knackered, with nothing to bowl at...
I think we really should be looking at the batsmen here...
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Cooks fault is being a bit harsh. Tossing a coin, as much as we'd hate to admit it, is completely 50/50. Cook may be losing the toss, but it's hardly his fault that he is unlucky!
Don't agree. He's been consistently defensive with his calls this tour and ignores the weather, team and conditions when making the heads/tails shout. He's been a bit of a flat track bully in that sense - he owned the coin toss in the Summer on the home grounds, though as soon as he steps foot overseas he loses his supposed coin management talent.
Tbh I love him as a batsman, though I think if we'd have a better man doing the coin toss we wouldn't be in this sorry state.
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The toss makes a difference!
On those wickets the team taking advantage of day 1 and 2 have an advantage!
Plus Swann bowling in day 4/5 would make a difference too!
But if England lose all three tosses then they still need to bat well in their first innings, and they haven't!
I will be interested to see if England bat well when(IF!) they do win a toss and bat first!
Plus, would it make a difference now? England will have very little confidence and the Aussies will be full of confidence!
Lets face it, England have batted badly and therefore put all the pressure on the bowlers!
And on top of that, they have dropped catches, missed fielding and stumping opportunities, and looked well below par!
So having to field and bowl for longer periods its little wonder that the bowlers are looking tired!
Would it have made any difference if England had of win the toss? Of course!!
Would it still be 3-0? Probably!
It would have been closer but I still think that the Aussies are batting better, fielding better, and bowling better!
So the lead is deserved!!
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Don't agree. He's been consistently defensive with his calls this tour and ignores the weather, team and conditions when making the heads/tails shout. He's been a bit of a flat track bully in that sense - he owned the coin toss in the Summer on the home grounds, though as soon as he steps foot overseas he loses his supposed coin management talent.
Tbh I love him as a batsman, though I think if we'd have a better man doing the coin toss we wouldn't be in this sorry state.
Sorry, but what the heck do external conditions have to do with calling a coin? Last time I checked (and incidentally it was in my year 8 maths probability lesson yesterday), calling heads or tails is still a 50% call, whether its blowing a hooly, or still as a millpond!
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Tbh I love him as a batsman, though I think if we'd have a better man doing the coin toss we wouldn't be in this sorry state.
Totally agree. If we have a captain who lost that many tosses we would replace him with an expert (No Swearing Please). Flower should have Cook working 24/7 on his tossing calls.
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If you've watch Swann since his debut the most obvious problem with his bowling is he's never developed an arm ball to right handed batsmen.
If a right hander goes after him, he goes straight on the defensive and it's very one dimensional.
Swann's thrived on umpires being more trigger happy in the modern day.
Had he been around in the 1990s he's have been axed after 5-10 Tests.
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Quickest offspinner to 250 Test wickets
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Quickest offspinner to 250 Test wickets
DRS can do that for modern day spinners...
And anyway England average 11 Tests per year, so it's a rather irrelevant fact.
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If you've watch Swann since his debut the most obvious problem with his bowling is he's never developed an arm ball to right handed batsmen.
erm, since he has one to left handed batsmen in your argument, I believe you may have stumped yourself...
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erm, since he has one to left handed batsmen in your argument, I believe you may have stumped yourself...
Left hander from around the wicket, the ball comes in with the drift...
He hasn't got an arm ball to right handed batsmen.
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Sorry, but what the heck do external conditions have to do with calling a coin? Last time I checked (and incidentally it was in my year 8 maths probability lesson yesterday), calling heads or tails is still a 50% call, whether its blowing a hooly, or still as a millpond!
Heads when it's overcast, tails when it's sunny. Everyone knows that.
That is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read. Haha
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DRS can do that for modern day spinners...
And anyway England average 11 Tests per year, so it's a rather irrelevant fact.
Then why aren't there a pack of them?
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Then why aren't there a pack of them?
Australia normally average 7-9 Tests per year.
South Africa 6-8 Tests per year.
India average 6-8 Tests per year
Pakistan average 6-8 Tests per year
So by process of elimination if Swann's playing more Tests than most other spinners, he'll take more wickets.
Not exactly rocket science...
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I understand that, but where are the offspinners dominating modern cricket? That's my point. DRS-less Ashwin playing mostly on dusty decks? Not really, Ojha cleans up. Narine? Mendis? Duminy?
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I understand that, but where are the offspinners dominating modern cricket? That's my point. DRS-less Ashwin playing mostly on dusty decks? Not really, Ojha cleans up. Narine? Mendis? Duminy?
DRS has effected umpires even when it's not used in all series.
Umpires are more bowler favoured. Umpires could be considered 'braver'.
Lots of front foot LBWs in modern day cricket off spin bowlers.
In the 1990s, if a batsman came forward and was hit on the pad, there's no way in hell an umpire would consider giving the batsman out.
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But it's not a simple as that though - conditions and rule parameters change from era to era. In the 90s more than an odd pitch may have grass on it. There is no contemporary of Swann in a true offspin sense who has consistently offered such a defensive and attacking benefit to a side.
He has also got people out in manners other than left hand LBWs.
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But it's not a simple as that though - conditions and rule parameters change from era to era. In the 90s more than an odd pitch may have grass on it. There is no contemporary of Swann in a true offspin sense who has consistently offered such a defensive and attacking benefit to a side.
He has also got people out in manners other than left hand LBWs.
Obviously he gets wickets in different matters
But in terms of %, Swann's LBW ratio is the highest of any spinner in Test history.
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He hasn't got an arm ball to right handed batsmen.
He has, its the same one, its just not much of a threat to them!
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Heads when it's overcast, tails when it's sunny. Everyone knows that.
That is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read. Haha
Whoosh
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He has, its the same one, its just not much of a threat to them!
How would an arm ball to a right hander from over the wicket be the same as an arm ball from round the wicket to a lefty to be the same?
Two totally different skills. Bowling to right and left handers requires different skills.
After 5 years, Swann's failed to make the continual improvements to challenge top class right handers.
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How would an arm ball to a right hander from over the wicket be the same as an arm ball from round the wicket to a lefty to be the same?
Two totally different skills. Bowling to right and left handers requires different skills.
After 5 years, Swann's failed to make the continual improvements to challenge top class right handers.
Not sure if serious...
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Not sure if serious...
Isn't an arm ball one that goes straight on?
So would be the same ball to righties and lefties? It would only be the end product (past edge or bat/into pads) that's be different.
I think (and I may be wrong) that he is talking about a doosra, that spins away from the right hander.
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I think (and I may be wrong) that he is talking about a doosra, that spins away from the right hander.
And hasn't there been vast amounts of cumulative viewing of videos of off spinners that has resulted in the opinion that none of those who claim to have a doosra actually bowl it legitimately, rather that they all chuck it?
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Isn't an arm ball one that goes straight on?
So would be the same ball to righties and lefties? It would only be the end product (past edge or bat/into pads) that's be different.
I think (and I may be wrong) that he is talking about a doosra, that spins away from the right hander.
I'm not talking about the doosra.
Bowling the arm ball to right handers is difficult.
The great Muralidaran only perfected his towards the end of his career.
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And hasn't there been vast amounts of cumulative viewing of videos of off spinners that has resulted in the opinion that none of those who claim to have a doosra actually bowl it legitimately, rather that they all chuck it?
Saqlain didn't throw it.
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Saqlain didn't throw it.
Neither did Sonny Ramadhin, nor most of the doosra bowlers from the past.
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Saqlain didn't throw it.
oh yes he bloody well did!
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I'm not talking about the doosra.
Bowling the arm ball to right handers is difficult.
The great Muralidaran only perfected his towards the end of his career.
How to bowl an arm ball to the right hander
Bowl it.
Don't let it turn.
How difficult can it be?
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How to bowl an arm ball to the right hander
Bowl it.
Don't let it turn.
How difficult can it be?
It's pretty different… The angle you bowl it in at, how you conceal it… Yeah, he can probably bowl one to a right hander, it's just not as effective as the one he bowls against left handed batsman.
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It's pretty different… The angle you bowl it in at, how you conceal it… Yeah, he can probably bowl one to a right hander, it's just not as effective as the one he bowls against left handed batsman.
I presume, not being much of a bowler, that the reason he does better to lefties is because of the amount of spin? An arm ball,bit of drift maybe and goes straight on,lefties play for spin, through the gate and bowled.
For right handers, the only real way would be for an edge? Much smaller target to hit.
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I presume, not being much of a bowler, that the reason he does better to lefties is because of the amount of spin? An arm ball,bit of drift maybe and goes straight on,lefties play for spin, through the gate and bowled.
For right handers, the only real way would be for an edge? Much smaller target to hit.
Yeah, that's probably right. ;) I don't know much about spin bowling either, (Wish I brought my Bob Woolmer book with me now!) but I know from bowling it that off spin bowling from round the wicket is pretty different from over. Maybe because of the way your body works as a whole, as you twist a little more when bowling from round the wicket, so maybe more revs and drift. Also, you play deliveries moving into you differently from deliveries moving away, so good right handers have no problem playing balls that move into their pads. A coach once told me that I should look to bowl outswing rather than stick with my inswing, because as I go up a few levels, you'll find that batsmen prefer to play in-swing, as they just let the ball run off the bat, but as soon as you get that lateral movement away from them, that's when you will get an edge. After you bowl a few overs of that, and the batsmen get used to that, then bowl the ball that swings in, and pin them lbw or bowl them. As a result, I've not taken many wickets this season… :-[
I'm guessing in a way, that's basically what Swann is aiming for when he bowls that arm ball to a leftie.
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Or you could do what Nathan Lyon does and create the angle by coming around the wicket. His 'straight onner' ball had us in all sorts of bother.
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Nathan Lyon is absolute dog (No Swearing Please).
England Batsmen have batted like utter, utter donkeys.
The bowlers have been average, including Swann,
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Nathan Lyon is absolute dog (No Swearing Please).
England Batsmen have batted like utter, utter donkeys.
The bowlers have been average, including Swann,
A side from Swann, who in this series looks like a pie chucker. Lyon's better than any other spinner England have.
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Australia normally average 7-9 Tests per year.
South Africa 6-8 Tests per year.
India average 6-8 Tests per year
Pakistan average 6-8 Tests per year
So by process of elimination if Swann's playing more Tests than most other spinners, he'll take more wickets.
Not exactly rocket science...
Gerry, you make a lot of sense...always do, but why are you attempting to enlighten those that do not want to know?
The levels of ignorance on these forums is breath taking.
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Gerry, you make a lot of sense...always do, but why are you attempting to enlighten those that do not want to know?
The levels of ignorance on these forums is breath taking.
Cheers mate
I live in hope, maybe one day someone might heed my comments...
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Haha Vic! I thought you and Gerry were the same person, you both speak so much sense ;) it's just the way you do it that gets peoples backs up!
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Well, Swanny has retired from all forms of cricket. Too early in my view.
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Haha Vic! I thought you and Gerry were the same person, you both speak so much sense ;) it's just the way you do it that gets peoples backs up!
Gerry is a Yarpie, I am Melbourne born and bred.
Still, Gerry knows his stuff...you have to respect the guy.
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Nathan Lyon is absolute dog (No Swearing Please).
Talking out of your (No Swearing Please) mate. End of.
England haven't batted well that's pretty obvious, but to say that's made Lyon look better than he is, is ridiculous. The Aussie bowling attack is as good as I've seen for quite a few years. A balanced mixture.
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Gerry is a Yarpie, I am Melbourne born and bred.
Still, Gerry knows his stuff...you have to respect the guy.
Respect Gerry? I am speechless! The guy slags off anyone who plays for England, however good they are...and everyone from SA and Aus can do not wrong!
The guy is so biased, that he will not even give credit where it's due! Stokes hits a decent ton, and not a word of saying, "well done" or even "he did ok". Oh no! It's the Aussie bowlers trying too hard and that's the only reason! Sorry, but with that pathetic statement, maybe we should all jump on that one! Hey, maybe the English bowlers went too hard at the Aussie batsmen and that's why they hit some tons!! By the way, I don;t believe a word of that cr@p! I actually say congratulations to the Aussies for outplaying the English in the field, with the bat and with the ball!
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The levels of ignorance on these forums is breath taking.
Especially when that bloke Nicholas is going off on one? ;)
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Especially when that bloke Nicholas is going off on one? ;)
Thought for a moment you were talking about me then ;)