Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: Buzz on August 16, 2014, 07:49:22 AM
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I have been thinking a little about the role of captains in cricket and wanted to ask whether a good team needs a great captain or whether only average teams need a great captain.
what do you think...
with cook now seemingly invincible again, but it isn't his captaincy which has changed, it is his bowlers bowling the right length (and some ludicrous pitches) that have made the difference.
Graeme Smith is lauded for being a great captain, but would SA, for example, have done better with a more natural captain with a better feel for the game (and not choked so often?)
does the length of the game matter?
again using SA as the benchmark, they have the better players so perform better over the longer game. in a short game the weaker players can have one of those days...
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Hows about Ponting.. Was he a great captain or did he just have a freakishly good team at his disposal?
I think a great captain will make a team be better than the sum of it's parts, but ultimately it's the caliber of the players that matters.
I guess the only exception would be where 2 teams are relevantly evenly matched
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Ponting was a reasonable captain but probably would have been better if he hadn't been gifted one of the greatest teams ever at the start of his captaincy. By having it so easy at the start, he never really had to be too inventive or original. This showed at the end when at times, he looked to be quite frustrated. Clarke will be a better captain in the long run from the experience he has garnered during the tough times along with a killer instinct, hopefully!
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Hows about Ponting.. Was he a great captain or did he just have a freakishly good team at his disposal?
I think a great captain will make a team be better than the sum of it's parts, but ultimately it's the caliber of the players that matters.
I guess the only exception would be where 2 teams are relevantly evenly matched
He just had a good team. I really don't rate him even though statistically he is one of the all time best captains.
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It's not difficult captaincy when you have a great team where everyone knows there own role and can deliver let the batters bat and the bowlers bowl but a good captain in a poor team with a tactical brain who understands players and the game itself can up to a point make a difference.
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This is too complex of a question to answer/explore in one post!
I think that better teams need a different type of good captain to weaker ones, and club sides need different qualities from their leaders to professional sides. For example, Smith was a great captain for South Africa for the first five years because he was a strong character who brought a disparate bunch together, but he didn't adapt to the changing needs of his team by providing the nous to get them over the line in those tight "choke" situations.
Steve Waugh is a similar example - lauded at the time, he was the right man to keep a stellar side in check and focused on their goals. Would he have done much with the team Michael Clarke inherited? Probably not...
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I think a captain should mold the team inspire,cajole,lead, be the man they turn to install discipline good and bad teams need a good captain but a good captain job is to lead.
Now it is different from your village club side to test side as they have so many people like psychologists and mentors.
A team should and will reflect there skipper for Ponting it was gritty win at all costs, I find it interesting watching Brendon McCullum captain recently he has risen his game and that of his teams and you can physically see the effect he has on his squad.
Think it a different role also if your in a team of world beaters it will be like clock work but in a poor team and your the best player you have to drag them up be improving things either mentally which i think is the key at club level.
All teams need good captains just different types from man managers Motivators, Leaders from the front type , Strategists, but what i will say is i think captaincy has a time scale because eventually you have done everything and your time comes to step down.
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He just had a good team. I really don't rate him even though statistically he is one of the all time best captains.
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Why not ?
What is the role of a captain ?
Some captains are strategically brilliant but incapable of holding a spot in the team ala Darren Sammy....
Others might be strategically unimaginative but lead the team from the front like an MS Dhoni or a Misbah
My opinion is that a team reflects the personality of the captain - a defensive mindset from a captain usually results in a defensive team and that is why I rate Ricky ponting so highly. He was an aggressive, lead from the front captain and his team had a killer instinct that they might not have had, had they been captained by a Justin Langer or a Damien Martin.
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Darren sammy is not strategically brilliant...
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Average teams need great captains I.E. Stephen fleming
great teams need great leaders whether the captain or senior players I.E. Clive lloyd
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Here we have the difference between leaders and captains. Clive Lloyd was a great leader of men - but he was not a great captain. Steve Waugh was similar, as was Graeme Smith.
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Good question!!
My view.
A good team does need a capt but a different one to a weaker side. A weaker side needs someone with far more leadership qualities than tactical skill. The capt of a good team probably needs less leadership but more man management as his players will all expect to bat higher than their roles dictate and so managing egos is me bigger thing.
I've not seen many good skippers tbh, most are either just guys who want to do everything so capt.. Guys who think they are good capts but aren't or just old guys still hanging on to their position in the team via being skipper
Good teams can suffer if they start to fragment due to people competing for spots and people get protective over their slot and bat for themselves. My club now have someone who seems to think they should be higher up,and is throwing all sorts of stats and moans about it.. Even though everyone knows his best position is where he is now it doesn't stop it being disruptive. That's when a good capt will manage it, a bad one will mismanage it, ending up,wih a weaker team all around
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A good captain is needed.
A great team can lose with some poor decisions.
But an average side can win with some great changes, ideas, plans.
There's always an exception to every rule, and when India are as bad as they were in the last 3 tests, it just becomes a walkover.
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The real question is, is a good captain responsible for the exceptional performance of players/a team over a sustained period?
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The real question is, is a good captain responsible for the exceptional performance of players/a team over a sustained period?
If it's a club capt and a player trusts them and respects them then they will be relaxed, not fear for their position and so will feel 'free'. Which as we know, generally means you play better
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All teams need a good captain, the key to captaincy is to know when and how to make the right decisions. The right decision in an experienced and winning team might be to say as little as possible, let the settled batting line up and bowling attack just do their stuff and make the right call at the toss. In a young team if might be to stick with a batting line up (even in a losing run, assuming you've picked the right line up in the first place) so everyone feels settled and free perform and in the field taking yourself out of first slip and going to mid off to give the bowlers encouragement and making the right bowling changes at the right time.
Make the wrong decisions in any team and you won't have your team behind you for very long.
The worst things I see from skippers (aside from batting on a wet track :() are chopping and changing the batting order (no bat likes flying up and down the order) and using a bowler 1 week but then not for the next couple and expecting him to perform at a whim whenever you call on him next. No forthought at all!
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As above all teams need a good captain. I have seen good teams perform poorly with a poor captain. Likewise average teams often perform well with the right captaincy. It's a skill to recognise a teams strengths and weaknesses and to play each week in a way that maximises that strength while negating the weaknesses. It can be firm leadership, man management or tactical awareness but by having somebody who can read conditions and tailor a way of winning for his team, you stand a much better chance. Taking decisions on who is most effective where in the batting order or who is the better bowling certain conditions, are match winning decisions. Lost count of the number of times a good team has lost because the skipper "played by numbers" rather than what worked well in the conditions. It does make a difference.
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I wonder if any of this comes down to the skipper's relationship with the selectors.
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I wonder if any of this comes down to the skipper's relationship with the selectors.
I was once told "games are won at lost at selection" as much to do with not having your best xi available as getting the players you want. There is also the issue of getting players you don't want and being under pressure to use them - ie. first team skipper needs somebody to get some "overs in" and you are forced to bowl a spinner on a green seamer.
Brings me onto pre-planning and balance. A good skipper will have a plan A,B,C etc. He needs the players to implement it though. 30 years ago you could get away with a decent seam attack and no real spinner. Now wickets are covered more often and surfaces dryer, so having the option of 2 spinners is a prerequisite. Having a balanced attack and batting line up requires a bit of horse trading but you can't do much with 5 swing bowlers on a square turner.
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Others might be strategically unimaginative but lead the team from the front like an MS Dhoni or a Misbah
My opinion is that a team reflects the personality of the captain - a defensive mindset from a captain usually results in a defensive team and that is why I rate Ricky ponting so highly. He was an aggressive, lead from the front captain and his team had a killer instinct that they might not have had, had they been captained by a Justin Langer or a Damien Martin.
Really...Dhoni is unimaginative...?? I will have to diagree on that.
Ponting might not have had a chance to exhibit his imaginative or tactical brilliance as he had probably the best post 1980 team. But with that team anybody would have had the same success as he did.
I agree that any team needs a good captain but average teams need the best captains. The best example I can think of right now is Imran Khan winning the '92 world cup.
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Really...Dhoni is unimaginative...?? I will have to diagree on that.
Ponting might not have had a chance to exhibit his imaginative or tactical brilliance as he had probably the best post 1980 team. But with that team anybody would have had the same success as he did.
I agree that any team needs a good captain but average teams need the best captains. The best example I can think of right now is Imran Khan winning the '92 world cup.
Really ? You think Misbah would've had the same success leading that Australian outfit ? How about Inzamam ? I think absolutely not.
A defensive captain would've completely changed the mindset and approach of that team. A lot of the wins that the Ponting aussie side went for would've been draws. A lot of the time with 5 wickets down with nothing on the board, Australia would counter attack and snatch the game away from the opponent. For a captain like the two mentioned above, their approach is the exact opposite.
I think inferior captaincy is the primary reason why Pakistani teams post Imran Khan have always underachieved.
As for Dhoni - in test cricket he is absolutely unimaginative and in over his head.
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few people have mentioned club cricket which is very different - in club cricket, sorry to say, the biggest skill a captain needs is the skill to get his best XI players on the field. So many clubs struggle to get that in their ones, because the skippers p155 so many people off...
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Really ? You think Misbah would've had the same success leading that Australian outfit ? How about Inzamam ? I think absolutely not.
A defensive captain would've completely changed the mindset and approach of that team. A lot of the wins that the Ponting aussie side went for would've been draws. A lot of the time with 5 wickets down with nothing on the board, Australia would counter attack and snatch the game away from the opponent. For a captain like the two mentioned above, their approach is the exact opposite.
I think inferior captaincy is the primary reason why Pakistani teams post Imran Khan have always underachieved.
As for Dhoni - in test cricket he is absolutely unimaginative and in over his head.
I would say that the kind of team Ponting had made anything possible. If you have someone like Gilly coming at 5 down and smashing (and I literally mean smashing) centuries at will is any captains dream.
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Are we on about club or pro teams ?? I assumed amateur.
Totally different beasts
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when I originally asked the question, I didn't specify pro or amateur.
I was referring to pro because the requirements are very different for amateurs, when getting 11 on the park is harder than captaining the match!
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Being a 4th XI skipper is quite difficult at times. Most of this season we've been able to get 5 or 6 saturday teams out which makes life simpler, but last season we only had a 5th XI for half the year. Selection wise that meant we'd be at the bottom of the ladder most weeks, so getting my best XI out on a regular basis was difficult. This season availability has been so good that half of last year's 4s are now playing friendlies in the 5th XI.
I'd say 90% of club cricket captaincy is getting your team togethter and getting them where they are supposed to be.
The 10% on field stuff is fairly simple when people don't start trying to move the field around without my say so. A lot of this season I've had people playing for me who believe their divine right is to play in the 2s/3s and that they are above playing for me.
It really doesn't help matters and when they don't perform, they are the first people that get the axe as their attitude usually stinks and no matter what you say to them to try and get them playing for the team, they play selfishly.
A few times this year, I've had to drop people to the 5s as they aren't performing or costing us too many runs/wickets. A few of them have gone and scored runs and come straight back up, but the ones that refuse to play for the 5s have not got back in my team, no matter how much I might need them
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Really ? You think Misbah would've had the same success leading that Australian outfit ? How about Inzamam ? I think absolutely not.
A defensive captain would've completely changed the mindset and approach of that team. A lot of the wins that the Ponting aussie side went for would've been draws. A lot of the time with 5 wickets down with nothing on the board, Australia would counter attack and snatch the game away from the opponent. For a captain like the two mentioned above, their approach is the exact opposite.
I think inferior captaincy is the primary reason why Pakistani teams post Imran Khan have always underachieved.
As for Dhoni - in test cricket he is absolutely unimaginative and in over his head.
Looks like you are a fan of ponting - nothing wrong in that. Don't let that cloud your memory tough. Great batsman but okayish captain
For an awesome team that he had Ponting was rather a defensive captain- in fact if it wasn't for Warnie's antics ponting would have never made capo.
Warnie was bossing captain ponting around in most games- field placements etc. Please rewatch Ashes 2005.
Experienced openers like Hayden and langer to demolish any attack and then attacking Batsmen going till the end. Gilly and symonds were lower middle order batsmen- is that not proof enough! Then McGrath , Jason Gillespie and Warne to attack from both ends - an autopilot of some kind would have won most games.
Watching Clarke captain gives even more contrast to Ponting.
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Looks like you are a fan of ponting - nothing wrong in that. Don't let that cloud your memory tough. Great batsman but okayish captain
For an awesome team that he had Ponting was rather a defensive captain- in fact if it wasn't for Warnie's antics ponting would have never made capo.
Warnie was bossing captain ponting around in most games- field placements etc. Please rewatch Ashes 2005.
Experienced openers like Hayden and langer to demolish any attack and then attacking Batsmen going till the end. Gilly and symonds were lower middle order batsmen- is that not proof enough! Then McGrath , Jason Gillespie and Warne to attack from both ends - an autopilot of some kind would have won most games.
Watching Clarke captain gives even more contrast to Ponting.
Don't disagree with anything you said there... Except, you probably haven't seen much of Misbah or Inzamam. Ponting was nowhere near as defensive as either of them or a Cook. He could also, almost always lead from the front and set an example with the bat or even in the field. His fielding IMO, makes him the greatest cricketer in the modern era.
Let's say you replace Ponting with Misbah and the whole dynamic would change. I am speculating now but instead of Warne, Hayden, Gilchrist... You might have Martin, Langer and Misbah as the centre of power. The whole team approach, from run rates to field placing to declarations would take on a more defensive flavour.
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IQ - Warne was a genius, some of the things he did as skipper oh Hampshire proved that.
Is he the greatest captain Australia never had??
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IQ - Warne was a genius, some of the things he did as skipper oh Hampshire proved that.
Is he the greatest captain Australia never had??
I think Clarke is going to prove to be one of the best captains in international cricket...
Warne has a great cricketing brain but not great captaining qualities in my opinion... Lacking people skills I think
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IQ - Warne was a genius, some of the things he did as skipper oh Hampshire proved that.
Is he the greatest captain Australia never had??
Absolutely.
Warnie had a sharp cricketing brain and he had a great learning opportunity in Border, Mark Taylor (best Aussie captain for me) - together at slips too, then played with Steve Waugh (best captain for many) for what seemed like forever.
He mentored Clarke from the start too. Even Clarke the vice captain seemed to undermine captain Ponting at times.
Ponting was a brilliant batsman and fielder but his captaincy always seemed to be focused in the now rather than the future. His tenure left a void for the next team as well - biggest thing for me was not backing his spinners enough.Imagine if warnie wasn't backed in the early part of his career
He is not the best mentor either- perhaps not gregarious enough? Could be he is not a drinker - sounds crazy but so much team building revolves around being mates! Lol
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Don't disagree with anything you said there... Except, you probably haven't seen much of Misbah or Inzamam. Ponting was nowhere near as defensive as either of them or a Cook.
You didn't mention the worst captain of them all -Mohd Yousuf (brilliant batsman though). Apologies to cover_drive for saying that about Moyo ;-)
Harder to judge Pak captains because they operate in a parallel universe to other teams! 1st order of day is dealing with back stabbers - from both in and out of team! lol No home grounds. Expert Media comprises of older players like Shoaib Akhtar and MoYo who are constantly looking to openly even their own personal scores. Board has been spending more time in Supreme Court and with lawyers than anything cricket. For a fair while they didn't have the legal powers to take any decisions!
Misbah - from the start - has the exact opposite team to Ponting. Completely in shatters and limited in offense. Even now top 5 Batsmen are "juniors" and constantly failing. Most of the games he is always playing the rescue role. Over time that will impact your game and thinking too.
Misbah is deemed too defensive for Pakistan standards- they love flamboyant characters in Pak. Even after failing for a decade Afridi is still the biggest hero and the first choice for captain - regularly up voted by media!
When England win hardly anyone complains about Cook being defensive etc but Misbah is bashed regardless every time. Misbah is still Pak' top batsman in all formats and to an outsider the only choice for captain. He is not brilliant but in current scenario ordinary will do!
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Warne has a great cricketing brain but not great captaining qualities in my opinion... Lacking people skills I think
I disagree.
Off the field he is a tool, mr Ego - no doubt.
On the field he is a real professional. Him and Gilly personally couldn't stand each other - almost to the point of hate. Warnie backed someone else to be the keeper post Healey. Him and Steve Waugh weren't best mates either lol.
On the field he acted professionally throughout and always gave his best and got along with the keeper and captain. Even in IPL he was good with G Smith- talking to him about field placements etc.
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You didn't mention the worst captain of them all -Mohd Yousuf (brilliant batsman though). Apologies to cover_drive for saying that about Moyo ;-)
Harder to judge Pak captains because they operate in a parallel universe to other teams! 1st order of day is dealing with back stabbers - from both in and out of team! lol No home grounds. Expert Media comprises of older players like Shoaib Akhtar and MoYo who are constantly looking to openly even their own personal scores. Board has been spending more time in Supreme Court and with lawyers than anything cricket. For a fair while they didn't have the legal powers to take any decisions!
Misbah - from the start - has the exact opposite team to Ponting. Completely in shatters and limited in offense. Even now top 5 Batsmen are "juniors" and constantly failing. Most of the games he is always playing the rescue role. Over time that will impact your game and thinking too.
Misbah is deemed too defensive for Pakistan standards- they love flamboyant characters in Pak. Even after failing for a decade Afridi is still the biggest hero and the first choice for captain - regularly up voted by media!
When England win hardly anyone complains about Cook being defensive etc but Misbah is bashed regardless every time. Misbah is still Pak' top batsman in all formats and to an outsider the only choice for captain. He is not brilliant but in current scenario ordinary will do!
Misbah has always been a poor captain.
He should have been gone after the farce of the Champions Trophy. Only now has he been blooding in youngsters to the team, too little too late since the World Cup is around the corner.
Also, his captaincy is like from the 90s if not before, it's old fashoined. He himself doesn't lead from the front, slows down the scoring and puts pressure on his partners, I don't think I've seen him set up or finish a game off apart from the test series in Sri Lanka a while back.
Very poor captain and player, he's made Pakistan to be a very predictable and boring team, there's a stat that if he gets out before 40 Pakistan usually win the game.
Dhoni in limited overs though is quite good, considering his poor bowling options, the team seems to do really well in tournaments.
Clarke's got to be the best at the moment.
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Misbah has always been a poor captain.
He should have been gone after the farce of the Champions Trophy. Only now has he been blooding in youngsters to the team, too little too late since the World Cup is around the corner.
Also, his captaincy is like from the 90s if not before, it's old fashoined. He himself doesn't lead from the front, slows down the scoring and puts pressure on his partners, I don't think I've seen him set up or finish a game off apart from the test series in Sri Lanka a while back.
Very poor captain and player, he's made Pakistan to be a very predictable and boring team, there's a stat that if he gets out before 40 Pakistan usually win the game.
Dhoni in limited overs though is quite good, considering his poor bowling options, the team seems to do really well in tournaments.
Clarke's got to be the best at the moment.
Wowww... Could not possibly disagree more. I rate him as the greatest captain pakistan has ever had. That's not saying much - it's a two man race, and he outperforms Imran statistically every which way, despite not having half as much talent.
He himself doesn't lead from the front ??? There is no way you're watching the same games as the rest of the world. Up until the start of the year, a Misbah 50 was pretty much the surest thing in world cricket.
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[quote author=Silver Bullet link=topic=31546.msg501088#msg501088
He himself doesn't lead from the front ??? There is no way you're watching the same games as the rest of the world. Up until the start of the year, a Misbah 50 was pretty much the surest thing in world cricket.
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I agree with you but he bats too slow at the beginning of his innings in ODIs putting pressure on his partners. I think he's played defensive for too long now. They've got some good young batsmen, he does need to play more aggressively now the youngsters are more experienced.
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Wowww... Could not possibly disagree more. I rate him as the greatest captain pakistan has ever had. That's not saying much - it's a two man race, and he outperforms Imran statistically every which way, despite not having half as much talent.
He himself doesn't lead from the front ??? There is no way you're watching the same games as the rest of the world. Up until the start of the year, a Misbah 50 was pretty much the surest thing in world cricket.
Playing defensively and getting a slow fifty during a chase is not what I call leading from the front. His and the teams mentality is very defensive at the moment despite them having attacking batsman. It's the same thing they've been doing under his captaincy for a few years hence the team is not improving.
The main reason why he used to get 50s last year was due to the team being very poor as it had players who were past it and no decent young prospect.
When the team in the field is on the up and takes wickets, he goes on the defense and puts men on the boundaries when there's new batsmen, even a club captain/player knows that when there's a new batsman at the crease you bring the field in a block of the singles.
The only one thing going for him is, he's inherited probably one of the worst Pakistani teams in a while.