Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Tom on November 02, 2014, 02:15:59 PM
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1450139871/julian-millichamp-cricket-bat-making-academy (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1450139871/julian-millichamp-cricket-bat-making-academy)
Handmade JM bat for equivalent of £275, or 2 bats and a batmaking course for £1,400. Who's in?
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saw this last night and the $400,000 target figure, some good deals if you wanted to have lessons by JM and lived in Oz. Sadly with the $2500 + flights and accomodation its as serious chunk of money but all for a fantastic project and cause.
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I have been very surprised that no one has gone on there already with some brand related stuff. Would be a cracking way to finance the launch, raise the profile etc. better than a bank loan anyway!
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But the important question is, if I pledge A$500 and he doesn't make the target figure do I still get my bat??
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I don't think you pay if he doesn't get all the money. You only pay if target is hit.
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Kickstarter is not a great website for crowd funding. It only goes through if you get all the money. Other sites let it go ahead if you get yes if you can still deliver the produce. IMHO 400,000 is really really ambitious. I mean I do not know the ins and outs of Screaming Cat but it strikes me as odd that nobody is willing to bankroll this project.
Surely somebody would like this a juicy tax right off?
Do not get me wrong I think it is a great idea and if it was in the UK I know what I would be getting for xmas!!
If any UK bat makers want to let me know how much it would cost for me to come and make my own bat etc let me know!!!
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I have been very surprised that no one has gone on there already with some brand related stuff. Would be a cracking way to finance the launch, raise the profile etc. better than a bank loan anyway!
There's various reasons you can't sadly - believe me I spent enough time looking into it. Unless you had something totally unique like Mongoose did then it wouldn't be possible via kickstarter.
With regards to the JM academy - £1400 for 2 bats and 5 days' tuition - seems a fair deal to me - totally agree that the $400,000 target is a bit ambitious though, sadly can't see it reaching that without some serious investment from someone
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That's only 800 bats though, or say 400 bats and some aussies going to the classes...
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http://youtu.be/-T2PfO0sW5I
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That's only 800 bats though, or say 400 bats and some aussies going to the classes...
Only?! That's a fair few bits of willow!
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Though I like the initiative and was really excited but not after I saw the course content and the fee. 5 days is way too less for someone to learn and then start his own venture. The classes are not one on one. For one on one the fee is 8000 AUD!
Also for oversees interests JM should have planned a course in UK.
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Though I like the initiative and was really excited but not after I saw the course content and the fee. 5 days is way too less for someone to learn and then start his own venture. The classes are not one on one. For one on one the fee is 8000 AUD!
Also for oversees interests JM should have planned a course in UK.
It couldn't possibly be 1 on 1 for $2500 - the maximum he could make would be $100,000 AUD per year which really isn't that much (excluding any bats sales of course).
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Well if the goal is to keep the tradition alive of hand made bats, I don't see how churning out graduates after a 5 days workshop would help. He already has a established company and would have offered apprenticeship for a period of one month for a fee and then could have selected couple of best ones to work under him for a year and take his brand forward or help them out to open their own. If he can bring out two good bat makers every year, I would say this would be more than enough for keeping this tradition alive.
This is how he, keeley, kember learned the trait under newbery.. Working day in day out.. Churning out bats and learning along the way. This is hardly a text book thing which some one can learn in a small period of time.
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Well if the goal is to keep the tradition alive of hand made bats, I don't see how churning out graduates after a 5 days workshop would help.
This is hardly a text book thing which some one can learn in a small period of time.
I completely agree. If he is saying you can learn to be a podshaver in such a short period of time then I think it doesn't promote the art, it devalues it!
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Julian isn't claiming to make you into a Pod Shaver in 5 days. He's giving you an introduction to the craft that will give you the tools to learn and progress your own bat making.
Just look at all the people who start up brands after making a few bats thinking they are custom bat makers. If you think you're going to be the finished product after 5 days, you're having a laugh. It's a taster for those willing to put in the time and effort.
Do you wonder why he hasn't been able to take on an apprentice?
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I would personally love to know the answer to your question.
There is more than enough one can learn from Julian's videos and on a forum like this for a taster. I have personally gone through this phase and know how difficult it is to move on to the next level. Probably its a good starter course for cricket enthusiasts but certainly not for some one looking to start his own company. It can give some one a start but I feel its an expensive for its scope and not everyone can afford it.
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You learn far more by doing, and also benefit from having someone show you the proper techniques which you then have to go away to practice and perfect. This isn't a "how to setup your own bat making business" course, it's an introduction to a craft.
If you're willing to put in the hard work, it's more than enough to send you in the right direction towards setting up a business. Considering that so many people on here say "I want to get into bat making", here's your opportunity. I didn't have it when I started, I'd have killed for it. An opportunity to be guided into a craft by a master, do you realise the mistakes he will help prevent you from making just by a little bit of guidance.
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Yes he can show how to use the tools but at the end of the day it is a craft and does not have one definitive way to do it... my main concern is the road map after this course which constitutes the practice and perfection part.. Will it allow someone to set up a workshop buy tools, clefts and perhaps a pressing machine to practice? If not where he will head to apply the knowledge he learned over 5 days?
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Will it allow someone to set up a workshop buy tools, clefts and perhaps a pressing machine to practice? If not where he will head to apply the knowledge he learned over 5 days?
The person will use some initiative or perhaps even ask some questions whilst on the course.
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If you want all this, I would expect to pay the Podfather one hell of a lot more money than eight grand aud. You are asking for his lifetime of experience. Try 100,000 aud and you might be nearer the mark...
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Where are you going to use the skills ? If Julian has struggled to make a living making bats in Australia, how will people with little experience fair? The Market in Australia is different to the UK, plenty of small brand have come and gone with virtually no batmakers left.
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I think JM offering a meet-and-greet, personalised bat making experience is a wonderful idea. I don't know why he didn't just advertise it on his website without worrying about the kickstarter program.
m_a_c is right though. This is hardly going to save the Pod Shaver craft in the long term and this seems to be what JM is suggesting as his goal.
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As the name implies, the goal of Kickstarter is to give new business/business ideas a kick start via an injection of funds. The very first line of the project text reads:
"A unique opportunity to set up the world's first cricket bat making academy with the world renowned bat maker - Julian Millichamp"
Read the whole Kickstarter campaign and watch the videos carefully. Via the Kickstarter campaign, you are helping JM to setup a new pod shaving academy which will continue to offer courses for years to come (not just for the life of the Kickstarter campaign). The facility will introduce aspiring pod shavers the art of pod shaving and become a training ground for aspiring pod shavers.
Nowhere has he promised to turn you into a fully fledged professional bat maker and equip you with all the know-how to run a bat making business, by making the $2,500 pledge!
If anything, JM is staying true to the Kickstarter principle. All too often, there are projects from people/companies who are just using the platform to flog their goods and don't actually need a genuine kick start...
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I think JM offering a meet-and-greet, personalised bat making experience is a wonderful idea. I don't know why he didn't just advertise it on his website without worrying about the kickstarter program.
m_a_c is right though. This is hardly going to save the Pod Shaver craft in the long term and this seems to be what JM is suggesting as his goal.
To quote the KS campaign:
The idea of using KickStart has multiple purposes:
1. To raise necessary funds to relocate to and fit out a premises that can house the academy.
2. To acquire the tooling for the the academy as many sets of traditional tools will be necessary.
3. To ascertain the interest from the cricket community.
4. To save a cottage industry and ensure that the tradition of pod shaving continues.
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Apologies I am still not clear.
Does this mean this pledge will be done 4 times a year by students who will attend the course and then continue the next year and so on ? Or after the academy is setup it will be a different fee and course structure?
In principle I agree that he requires funds at the start of this setup and would love to contribute as well but not
clear when kick start will end and a real academy will shape up.
To answer Tim's comment regarding podfather I don't think and believe Julian started this for money. He decided to pass on his knowledge
to the next generation in the same way he got it and I don't think he paid 100000 dollars to podfather John Newbery for that.
I sincerely am looking for some genuine answers and perhaps will call Julian directly to understand better.
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Kickstarter campaigns are generally a one-off. Although some individuals/companies do continue to post campaigns which I think is taking the mick of the KS concept.
Good question regarding the course structure and fees after it's been setup. Some KS projects attract backers by providing a discounted price for "rewards" compared to what it will sell for after the KS campaign. In this instance, it is not clear what the course will cost after the KS campaign.
Technically, a KS projects ends when all backers have been fulfilled with the rewards they backed. JM has a website setup for the academy which also references the KS project. So if you want to see what happens after the KS campaign is finished and the academy is fully up and running, I'd suggest checking JM's website on a regular basis.
Do ask him questions. It might be helpful to ask via Kickstarter (by messaging him), as your questions and answers may get added to the FAQ for all to see.
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Well, after the best part of a week and just over 6k raised, I'd say the whole point is moot anyway. With all respect to JM, it was a noble and nice idea I suppose.
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As much as I respect JM as bat maker/pod shaver. This whole campaign reeks of profit and not "saving the craft"
As someone else suggested, taking on a couple apprentices etc to continue his brand and carry on the craft would IMO serve the purpose better.
I have nothing against people trying to make money but call it what it is.
I like the ideas of meet and greet with getting to do some of the work on your own bat. However do you need a kick starter campaign for that?
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This whole campaign reeks of profit and not "saving the craft"
As someone else suggested, taking on a couple apprentices etc to continue his brand and carry on the craft would IMO serve the purpose better.
That's assuming Screaming Cat weren't selling enough bats to be sustainable and being able to take on 2 further employees, if not how would taking on apprentices solve that problem? As said above, the AU market is different to the UK and there are very few successful small brands out there.
It seems like some people think that JM owes us something and should be giving away his valuable knowledge for nothing.
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I am surprised that this has not been done before but on a much smaller scale. A bat maker offers a 'make your own bat experience'. You get to come along, they do the tough buts such as handles etc. You get to discuss the shape, they guide you on using the tools and then can jump in if you get stuck. There can be price variations on willow used, and I think a lot of people would enjoy being able to say 'I made that'.
And if you really enjoy it you can look at making it more regular or in groups. What I struggle to see is why you would need such a huge huge investment.
But I do not know the ins and outs of screaming cat!
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Yes Blocka. It sounded like a "saving the craft with minimum effort and no financial outlay" kinda deal to me. JM was clear in his ultimate goal of saving the craft. Nothing he's outlined is likely to achieve this.
Take a risk, spend some money, employ an apprentice full time. Surely?
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I am surprised that this has not been done before but on a much smaller scale. A bat maker offers a 'make your own bat experience'.
I thought they did mate. Look at Hammer Cricket?
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I know they offer a bespoke experience but I cannot see where they offer a make your own experience?
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You may be right. I thought this would've been offered somewhere too.
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A little while back we discussed this and one of my idea was , I am not sure if it was here or on another one but here is how it goes.
Setup a school/ workshop, where students can come and practice the art, you don't even need a bat making legend there just someone with basic knowledge of how to use the tools etc. Once a week, every 2 weeks or Monthly get a big name pod shaver to come in for half a day and spend with students. inspect their work, teach techniques, then students have time to practice. If this was a four month course you have 4 podshavers that have come in for half a day each, students have had time to practice and their work inspected by actual craftsmen. Fee should cover the cost of everything, as you would want to compensate the bat makers for their time. That will get the students exposure to different skills from different bat makers, they will get instilled with good values and love of the craft. Top students would/could then be available to be cherry picked by these bat makers to come work if they needed help. I mean its common sense, bat makers are getting paid for their time, passing their trade and then they get to pick out help that they have seen develop over months.
Going back to KS by JM, well as much as I agree with Sudeep's point that you can't make a pod shaver in a week or transfer all your knowledge I also think Sudeep you are missing a point. We hire Uni students to come work with us on short terms, there is no way they will learn a lot over a short period of time (usually 2-3 months) but of the 100's of students that have passed through our doors even if one finds his/her passion then the program is successfull. Everyone likes the idea of being a bat maker but when you really do it you can figure out pretty quickly if you are cut out for this, so you are providing value for their money, sometimes its worth knowing what you can't do, similarly if 1 kid discovers that this is it, then he/she will go back and find the means to make it happen. Remember no matter how good your teacher is you can't learn something if you don't want to learn what the teacher is teaching and you have to make your own mistakes, practice and try to absorb the lessons. JM can stop you from howlers and share little tid-bits but he can't force you to pick up tools after you are done your course and gone back home. Everyone who signs up could be of different skill set and might absorb different things from the same course.
I think its a great idea and kudos to him for trying to do something, he could have sat at home and thought lets hire someone to make my bats and keep making a mint selling bats but he is doing something for the craft, even if not everyone thinks/ see's it that way.
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It may be possible that JM can provide enough knowledge in 5 days but my whole point : Is this time enough for a fresher to grasp such vast knowledge and apply afterwards and to apply where? I am not convinced with the analogy of doing a workshop/ training in a mainstream company as there students have options to go back and apply the knowledge by getting another job. Moreover bat making is more practical than theory as per my experience.
There might be one or two jobs available ( like B3 and Salix advertised) but what about the rest of the students who go through such a course? Isn't the only option remains is to setup own workshop, buy equipments and clefts which again requires some investment.
If someone has to find out the bat making is not his cup of tea, it is a really expensive route to take.
A little while back we discussed this and one of my idea was , I am not sure if it was here or on another one but here is how it goes.
Setup a school/ workshop, where students can come and practice the art, you don't even need a bat making legend there just someone with basic knowledge of how to use the tools etc. Once a week, every 2 weeks or Monthly get a big name pod shaver to come in for half a day and spend with students. inspect their work, teach techniques, then students have time to practice. If this was a four month course you have 4 podshavers that have come in for half a day each, students have had time to practice and their work inspected by actual craftsmen. Fee should cover the cost of everything, as you would want to compensate the bat makers for their time. That will get the students exposure to different skills from different bat makers, they will get instilled with good values and love of the craft. Top students would/could then be available to be cherry picked by these bat makers to come work if they needed help. I mean its common sense, bat makers are getting paid for their time, passing their trade and then they get to pick out help that they have seen develop over months.
Going back to KS by JM, well as much as I agree with Sudeep's point that you can't make a pod shaver in a week or transfer all your knowledge I also think Sudeep you are missing a point. We hire Uni students to come work with us on short terms, there is no way they will learn a lot over a short period of time (usually 2-3 months) but of the 100's of students that have passed through our doors even if one finds his/her passion then the program is successfull. Everyone likes the idea of being a bat maker but when you really do it you can figure out pretty quickly if you are cut out for this, so you are providing value for their money, sometimes its worth knowing what you can't do, similarly if 1 kid discovers that this is it, then he/she will go back and find the means to make it happen. Remember no matter how good your teacher is you can't learn something if you don't want to learn what the teacher is teaching and you have to make your own mistakes, practice and try to absorb the lessons. JM can stop you from howlers and share little tid-bits but he can't force you to pick up tools after you are done your course and gone back home. Everyone who signs up could be of different skill set and might absorb different things from the same course.
I think its a great idea and kudos to him for trying to do something, he could have sat at home and thought lets hire someone to make my bats and keep making a mint selling bats but he is doing something for the craft, even if not everyone thinks/ see's it that way.
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It may be possible that JM can provide enough knowledge in 5 days but my whole point : Is this time enough for a fresher to grasp such vast knowledge and apply afterwards and to apply where?
That's the concern of the individual taking the course. They need to get the most out of it and also decide what they wish to do with the knowledge in the future. It could be a hobby or eventually a business but to assume that the 5 days is a compressed apprenticeship is unfair.
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I agree beachcricket. You are paying for a starter course. If you were an apprentice they would pay you and it would be for a long period. This is really designed to give people a go under the tutelage of one of the greats, and if just 2 or 3 go on to become master craftsmen, his job is done. He will have laid the foundation and provided the industry contact that those few need to take their own initiative and get going.
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It may be possible that JM can provide enough knowledge in 5 days but my whole point : Is this time enough for a fresher to grasp such vast knowledge and apply afterwards and to apply where? I am not convinced with the analogy of doing a workshop/ training in a mainstream company as there students have options to go back and apply the knowledge by getting another job. Moreover bat making is more practical than theory as per my experience.
There might be one or two jobs available ( like B3 and Salix advertised) but what about the rest of the students who go through such a course? Isn't the only option remains is to setup own workshop, buy equipments and clefts which again requires some investment.
If someone has to find out the bat making is not his cup of tea, it is a really expensive route to take.
May I ask who taught you how to make bats m_b_c?
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May I ask who taught you how to make bats m_b_c?
This forum and JM videos on youtube.
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Ok so do you think you would have benefited from having a week of tutelage from one of the great podshavers? Any of the greats not just JM.... If I remember correctly I watched an early video of you making bats and you were scratching willow from the cleft with very blunt tools... You are making beautiful bats now but with a week with a master craftsman I've no doubt your attempts would have improved out of sight and I also believe that you would know after a week whether this bat making game was for you or not therefore saving you all that money before forking it out on tools and equipment. This academy is giving guys a "kickstart" into the world of bat making.. It's not setting them up for life but it's giving them the knowledge to take it to the next step if they wish... At the very least they get a couple of great bats an the experience of a life time.
Let's ask all the podshavers on here if they think a week with one of the best at the beginning of their career would have helped them along?
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Ok so do you think you would have benefited from having a week of tutelage from one of the great podshavers? Any of the greats not just JM.... If I remember correctly I watched an early video of you making bats and you were scratching willow from the cleft with very blunt tools... You are making beautiful bats now but with a week with a master craftsman I've no doubt your attempts would have improved out of sight and I also believe that you would know after a week whether this bat making game was for you or not therefore saving you all that money before forking it out on tools and equipment. This academy is giving guys a "kickstart" into the world of bat making.. It's not setting them up for life but it's giving them the knowledge to take it to the next step if they wish... At the very least they get a couple of great bats an the experience of a life time.
Let's ask all the podshavers on here if they think a week with one of the best at the beginning of their career would have helped them along?
My point of view on this particular campaign is based on my experience of bat making.
Did I knew that I will end up making bats then? NO.
I started it out of curiosity and as a past time. I personally do not consider my skill a finished article despite spending more than 2 years. Yes I struggled a lot but then I learned along the way and I do not see a replacement to that.
5 days in my view is not sufficient this is my opinion and it has come from my experience of making bats and spending one full day with Tim keeley last summer.
A week with one of the best at the beginning of would have helped me along?
Yes but even then I would not have afford the cost. Lets ask how many of the forum members here can afford this course and in the end will end up doing it?
I have nothing but respect for Julian and I sincerely want it to be a success but in the current format I have serious doubts.
I am in touch with JM since he initiated this and I have expressed my views and suggestions to him.
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Let's ask all the podshavers on here if they think a week with one of the best at the beginning of their career would have helped them along?
^THIS^
Different people will get different mileage from a 5 day course. Someone who has spent a lot of time reading up on a forum such as this might be able to leverage the course a lot better than Joe Public.
I find in life generally, anyone can learn most of anything. It is the fine tuning that separates the best from the rest. That's where someone like JM comes in for bat making. You can pick his brain and get some inside tips fast, or you could spend a whole lot of time/money experimenting on your own. No guarantees whether you will end up finding those answers either. Take your pick ...
Btw, the offers of training / making your own bat etc. in exchange for X dollars are just incentives for folks to donate money, so the academy can actually be created. The real payoff for all donors, and the cricketing community at large, is the academy itself (if it happens.)
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5 days in my view is not sufficient this is my opinion and it has come from my experience of making bats and spending one full day with Tim keeley last summer.
By this you're constructing that a day with Tim Keeley wasn't helpful because if 5 days isn't sufficient then surely 1 day was positively a waste of time.
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Lets not get personal and change this topic to my learning experiences. This is a forum and everyone is entitled to his view. I respect yours but that doesn't necessarily mean that I must agree to your view.
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I'm done.
What a shame.
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I'm done.
What a shame.
Beachy I've seen your work from the beginning too and you have turned out some beautiful bats (also some nice tools if I remember correctly) but my question to you is do you think you would have benefited from a week with a master craftsman in your early days or even now for that matter?
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Yes to both.
At the start of my bat making I would have been given the foundation of knowledge to progress through my own learning with confidence. 15 years later I know more about bat making, but would probably get even more out of the course now because I would ask questions and critique my work WITH a master craftsman. Not to mention what I could learn about the industry and its history.
What an opportunity.