Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: swark on February 13, 2017, 10:26:11 AM
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Hi all,
A request for help (with a VERY long explanation ...)
I write articles for Cricinfo on the side, on anything that pretty much piques my interest at the time. I recently wrote one regarding the evolution of the cricket bat over the past few hundred years (http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/1080665.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/1080665.html)) and this article has garnered more feedback and communication than almost anything else I've done. There was some sections that were unfortunately edited out of this first article, and while I was initially looking to do a simple follow-up to include those parts, it has started to expand into a full research project. This is where I would love to get the input and advice of the members / manufacturers here.
Prior to researching that article, I had never come across the phrase "English willow nurtured in India" before. This prompted me to start thinking about exploring the different types of bat timber. The question I have been left with is:
What is the performance difference between English willow grown in England, versus English willow grown elsewhere (Australia, India, Canada etc) versus Kashmir willow? Is it possible to quantify this difference in any meaningful way? And if so, how do the performance differences relate to the price?
I am in the process of establishing a small research project to try and do some initial comparisons. In the non-cricket world, I am an academic/researcher at an Australian university (although in Medicine / Public Health and not sports science), and have started some preliminary discussions with our Science and Technology gurus in terms of thinking about what testing and measurements (cross-sectional analysis of the wood, acoustic properties, rebound characteristics, 3D video-capture etc) they could do that would be appropriate. That would constitute stage 2 of the testing.
What I would like to do in stage 1 is to undertake a subjective trial of at least five different bats made out of: Grade 1 English willow, Grade 4 English willow (both grown in England), Australian willow, English willow nurtured in India, and Kashmir. The purpose of this first stage is to gain input from actual end-users on how they perceive each of the bats. I would recruit a group of 20 local first-grade cricketers to trial each of the bats and to then rate each bat on pre-determined criteria (such as feel, performance, acoustics etc) using a five-point Likert scale. The tests would be done in indoor nets with a bowling machine to ensure that all tests are undertaken under similar conditions and with equivalent striking opportunity. The goal is to see whether batsmen can genuinely distinguish between the different bats, and if so, how do they rate the various timbers. This will then guide the second stage of testing.
In order to make this first stage as fair as possible, the starting points are:
- All bats would need to be new at commencement, and broken in in accordance with the manufacturer recommendations.
- It would be a double-blind trial (where neither the experimenter nor participant know which bat is which until after the testing is complete).
- Each bat needs to be the same weight, have the same grip, and approximately the same profile.
- The bats need to be covered entirely, so that the colour and grains of the timber cannot be seen.
- Each batsman would face 10 balls with each bat. Player 1 would start with bat 1, then bat 2, 3,4 and 5. Player 2 would start with bat 2, then 3,4,5 and 1. Player 3 starts with with bat 3, then 4,5,1 and 2. And so on.
- It would be ideal to get the same manufacturer to make all five bats, but this is probably not feasible.
I realise that this research has a number of fairly fundamental flaws that I may not be able to overcome. In particular, there is naturally considerable variation in the performance of grade 1 English willow, so trying to fairly compare between the different types of timber is even more problematic. But, I am still keen to try :)
If you are willing to help me out with this project, can you please let me know either via pm or a message below? A simple response of "I'm in" would suffice. A formal acknowledgement for CustomBats, manufacturers and forum members would naturally be provided.
I am happy to provide a link to my Cricinfo articles and academic research outputs to indicate the genuineness of this proposal (although it won't take a lot of detective work for people to work out who I am if they really care).
CLIFF Notes:
Australian researcher looking for assistance in a research project looking at cricket bat performance. If interested in helping, please put a response below :)
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English willow grown in India/Pakistan is Kashmir willow
The 'nurtured' or 'grown in' elements of the name are a pure marketing ploy
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Here's my answer
English willow nurtured abroad is exactly the same GENUS as English willow but the trees are not grown in the UK it is also NOT Kashmir willow.
Kashmir willow is a very close relation to English willow but is a native of the Kashmir region of Pakistan and India.
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@swark do get in touch with @JK Lewis as his latest willow project might be good material for you.
As others have said, Kashmir willow is the same strand of willow salix alba as used in an English willow bat, but grown in india, hence the phrase nurtured in india. If it is grown in Kashmir then it is Kashmir willow... not sure wjat willow is grown in india outside Kashmir.
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Sounds like an interesting study, I'd be happy to help if I can. My guess is that to minimise the variables you would need to start at cleft stage. If you had your 5 clefts, you could have them shaped identically using an agreed spec and a CNC machine. The resulting blades would likely have different weights, but would be identical in every other aspect. Personally I think that weight may be the main difference between the various willow types, due to differing rates of drying in different parts of the world.
Then get the same batmaker to handle, press and finish the clefts, again to minimise the variables.
Good test. Best of luck with it!
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Sounds brilliant, I look forward to seeing the results :) if theres a way I can help, i'm in!
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Also speak to @The Doctor he may be able to help...
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Here's my answer
English willow nurtured abroad is exactly the same GENUS as English willow but the trees are not grown in the UK it is also NOT Kashmir willow.
Kashmir willow is a very close relation to English willow but is a native of the Kashmir region of Pakistan and India.
I agree with this. Kashmir willow and English Willow nurtured in India aren't the same thing. Botanical classification of willow is - everything under genus Salix is called willow and English Willow is Salix alba species under that genus. There are 350-400 species under genus Salix alba and there are 27 known species of willow i.e. Salix
tetrasperma, Salix wallichiana, S. Dephnoides, S. Caesia, S. Denticulate, S. Elegans, S. H
imalaynsi, S. Acmophylla, S. Flabellaris,
S. Fragilis, S. Phenotachya and S. Pseudowallichian native to Kashmir. White willow or English willow (Salix Alba) was introduced in Kashmir by Mr. Abbey in 1927 and planted in Co.la of Harran range and since then, more saplings of white willow have been introduced there (Ref. http://www.ijraset.com/fileserve.php?FID=5751 (http://www.ijraset.com/fileserve.php?FID=5751))
@swark Now, 1) any bat that is made from a willow species that is indigenous to Kashmir, is called as a Kashmir willow bat. 2) The bats made from Salix alba grown in India is called English willow nurtured in India bat and 3) of course the bats made from the Salix alba wood grown in UK are called English willow bats.
Among all the willow woods, white willow has the lowest density and it grows the best in England due to climatic conditions. The same species grown somewhere else is the second best and the other varieties of willow (e.g. Kashmir willow) are generally heavier than the white willow so lower quality bats are made of Kashmir willow.
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Hi all,
Thanks everyone for responding - much appreciated.
A quick comment on Kashmir versus English Willow Nurtured in India (EWNI) which started my interest in this area:
The botanical advice I have been given matches that of Seniorplayer and Sachin200. Kashmir willow bats are often made from Salix Fragilis (ironically name perhaps, in light of the reputation of kashmir bats for breaking easily) which is native to Western Asia and is a type of crack willow. English willow bats come from Salix Alba Caerulea (which is possible a hybrid willow species of white willow and crack willow), irrespective of where they are grown. This was some of the text that was edited out of the first Cricinfo article. The 'Australian' willow bat market, which started back in the early 1900s and has recently had a welcome resurrection, was initially based around Salix Alba Caerulea cuttings sent over by ship by Archie MacLaren. However, there is so much confusion about the differences between these options, I am sure that some unscrupulous bat manufacturers (none on here of course) could be trying to pass off kashmir as EWNI as a marketing ploy. One of the reasons for this project is actually to try and make sense of what is what.
In terms of the wider project:
Some of you have already recognised the logistical issues that we will face in trying to get this off the ground. Making it as 'objective' as possible is the goal, but is going to be difficult. We are not interested in whether bat manufacturer 'A' makes a better bat from grade 1 English willow than manufacturer 'B' - that is often very subjective to the individual end-user. However, I have already encountered some interesting 'feedback' in terms of the potential financial implications of this project - if it shows that batsmen are unable to distinguish EWNI from English willow, will that have an impact on the marketplace? We don't want to impact on any genuine manufacturer's livelihood (scammers not included), but equally, we want to do a fair job of comparing the options.
In terms of a pilot, I already have a couple of bats (bought at my expense as we have no funding for this) from lower grade English willow and EWNI that we are planning to use as a trial run, once we have the broader project parameters worked out.
I will keep thinking, and am very happy to have ongoing thoughts and ideas suggested. I will be sending a pm to a number of respondents over the next day or so.
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Just a suggestion @swark Would rigging a bat to a fixed position and then dropping a ball from a fixed high while calculating how far it bounces up off the bat not be the best controlled experiment you can do? This takes out the uncertainty surrounding batsman and places it purely 100% on the rebound qualities of the willow?
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If it's not grown in England it isn't English Willow.
Subtle differences in the genus may well be present, but the biggest contributor to the properties of willow is its growing conditions, it can't be English willow if it's grown in India, as Indian weather and soil is totally different.
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@Calzehbhoy
Absolutely - that has been the protocol that others have used in the past, and would be part of a suite of tests that is planned for stage 2. The idea of stage 1 is to see whether batsmen perceive any difference between the timbers in a blind test, and to then look at the respective rebound qualities (amongst other things) once we have had the participants rate each of the bats. It will be interesting to see if the two match up ...
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@Vitas Cricket
Both agree and disagree :)
Technically, they are considered the same (as I understand it), with them all being: Genus: Salix. Species: alba. Var. caerulea. However, one of the main reasons for this project is exactly as you note: where they are grown (be it Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand or India) will possibly/probably see differences in the end product. Which is what we want to quantify if possible.
The other big issue is durability - I don't think that we can necessarily test this out in this project. The problem with this variable is that a bat could have better rebound qualities, but have a very short durability and therefore not represent good value for money for the average punter. Something else I am thinking about ...
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Austrialian willow falls into the same catorgary as English willow nurtured abroad why. Because it has the same genus.
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Interesting topic this. Sounds like someone is finally going to put some unbiased science behind bats and how good they really are.
I feel inspired to set up my own experiments... with Lazers and Dry-Ice and Beakers!
Good luck with it Swark, let me know if you need guinea pigs.
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Being a bit pedantic (and possibly ignorant) here, but surely like Jake says Salix alba grown in England is English White willow, but Salix alba grown in India is Indian white willow.
But I guess where it could get confusing is if the IWW is grown from saplings raised in England brought over to India, then it could be English willow nurtured in India. But is there a point in its life where it becomes Indian willow - What would the export information say if they sold it as felled trees and shipped it to another country?
Stretching this a bit with an alternative example - if you bought a whole load of italian olive saplings, shipped them to the UK, planted, and a few years later produced some olive oil from the olive crop, would it be called Italian olive oil, English olive oil, or Italian olive oil nurtured in England?
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Either way I think it would be great to see some robust research on this
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I agree with @Chalkie - there is so much confusion around regarding timber types, and this adds the problem which dodgy manufacturers can take advantage of.
I think one of the issues is the term "English willow" being seen as synonymous with Salix Alba Caerulea. Any bat that is not made of "English willow" is seen as being far inferior, so genuine manufacturers are, not unreasonably in some ways, keen to identify and market their product as being of a reasonable quality and not 'kashmir'. Interestingly, I did find a study that compared the rebound qualities of English willow against Kashmir willow and it only found a 1.5% difference (from memory). One of the things I would like to test in Stage 2 is how the rebound varies across the length and width of the bat.
My interpretation would be (and this is just my fairly ignorant view that is subject to change) that any bat proclaimed to be made of "English willow" should have been grown until felling in England. This would not preclude other countries producing bats made of Salix Alba Caerulea, be it a long standing plantation (such as in Australia) or new cuttings transplanted from England to a new location to finish their growing. That would allow for distinction between Salix Alba Caerulea and Salix Fragilis (for example), but maintain an understanding of what "English willow" refers to. In some ways, this is similar to the regulation that you can only market certain types of wine etc under a name if they are actually grown in that traditional region of France.
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1.5 difference in ping having used both English willow and Kasmir willow bats would nt disagree at all with that
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A pingdex @DorsetDan ?
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From what I have seen with the bats I've had it's not really an issue with ping (CA for example) but they should be at least honest about where the willow comes from. GN bats from India, I've seen a few very dry ones despite coming from their own quality controlled factory. Do they state English willow?
Apart from Kashmir willow, if the growing and drying conditions are similar then I can't imagine a huge difference in ping. Aren't we told it is the pressing that makes a good bat? I think the main difference will be in the price of the raw materials.
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From what I have seen with the bats I've had it's not really an issue with ping (CA for example) but they should be at least honest about where the willow comes from. GN bats from India, I've seen a few very dry ones despite coming from their own quality controlled factory. Do they state English willow?
Apart from Kashmir willow, if the growing and drying conditions are similar then I can't imagine a huge difference in ping. Aren't we told it is the pressing that makes a good bat? I think the main difference will be in the price of the raw materials.
GN state English willow on there English willow bats.
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Ist grader, living in Sydney. Happy to help .
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@DorsetDan - love the idea! Dunno about using kashmir as the baseline though - English willow (grown in England) would appear to be the logical reference point as it is still seen as the defacto standard, but trying to quantify that will also be problematic due the different gradings. It could be possible to average the rebound from a series of grade 1 English willow bats (say 20) in order to arrive at a mean score. Horribly expensive exercise for me though :o More to think about ....
@Jaffa - One of the issues we are interested in looking at is whether the growing conditions do make a difference. Visually (not the greatest measure admittedly) there is quite a difference between grade 1 English willow (very white) and Australian willow (darker). But does this actually translate to a performance difference? Durability is a factor in here - from what I understand, the faster growing willow (hotter climates) will be different to slower growing. Water content in the end product is yet another factor, and I'm not even buying into the argument about pressing.
@Biggie Smalls @Biggie Smalls @Biggie Smalls (sorry, probably been done to death before but couldn't resist) - thanks for the offer. Will continue to conceptualise the project parameters and will be in touch.
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I know, but the idea of a standard point of comparison for willow is an intriguing one anyway. However, it may lead to the ICC introducing a 0.83 limit on
drivers bats ...
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A quick question:
One of the things I wish to do is ensure that no tester is influenced by the appearance (i.e. colour, grains etc) of the bat (at least in one part of the experiment).
Any suggestions on the best way to cover the blade and back of the bat from shoulder to toe, but still allow for this covering to be removed at a later stage with no impact on the blade (e.g. no paints, stains etc). I was thinking of elastoplast (I used that as a quick and dirty bat repair tool many years ago), but would need to trial what impact that would have on overall bat weight. Any better ideas?
Cheers,
Stuart
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Get a roll of coloured vinyl. Cheap and very lightweight. Not as sticky as scuff sheet either.
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Couple of layers of fibre scuff sheet?
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Stuart, why the need to return the bats back to raw? Surely the bats have seeved their purpose during the testing. Sure, its an expensive sacrifice but the data is the goal of the exercise. Write a few bats off. Its not the end of the world.
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As said above, fibre scuff sheets would probably be the best way to go.
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Stuart, why the need to return the bats back to raw? Surely the bats have seeved their purpose during the testing. Sure, its an expensive sacrifice but the data is the goal of the exercise. Write a few bats off. Its not the end of the world.
Good question - one of the ideas I am playing with is doing two tests with the participants. The first is where the bats are covered, while the second is where they are back in their natural state. The idea is to see whether their perceptions of the bats' quality is influenced by their visual appeal; I want to see if the testers rate them the same way after they are able to see the difference in timber. We could do it the other way around (i.e. start natural and then cover up), but I think starting off blind is a better approach.
Nothing is in or out at this stage, as I am just trying to think through all possible options before we start. Nothing is worse than starting an experiment and then regretting not thinking it through properly.
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As said above, fibre scuff sheets would probably be the best way to go.
Would even a couple of sheets make the willow impossible to see? Most of the ones I have seen (and there could be others of course) are transparent.
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I'm sure CX cricket can be of assistance!
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Would even a couple of sheets make the willow impossible to see? Most of the ones I have seen (and there could be others of course) are transparent.
These are what I mean by fibre scuff sheets. I think they would obscure the grains/colour sufficiently.
http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/222258021769?_mwBanner=1 (http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/222258021769?_mwBanner=1)
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They are a nightmare to get off again through!
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Something like a crictech sheet would be perfect wouldn't it?
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0434/5341/products/impact_sheet_1024x1024.JPG?v=1405382319)
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How are you setting up the experiment Stuart? It just seems like getting all the bats covered up is going to be a faff and quite expensive. If the bats are all going to be tested in the same room, would a blindfold not suffice?
If you were going to do it like that, I'd suggest letting the "Guinea pigs" see the grains first, then blindfold.
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Blindfolded?? Lol
I can barely middle it staring a hole into the ball! You guys must be good!!!!
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I probably didn't explain this very well :)
The first stage is getting players to test each of the bats in a net facing a bowling machine. All identification is removed (i.e. stickers etc), and they then rate them on a number of five point scales (feel, rebound, acoustics etc). I am considering whether I also cover the blade and back, so that the players are not influenced by their visual perceptions of supposed performance. "Blinding" refers to the fact that the batsmen (and researcher) are unaware of which bat is which until after the testing is done. I agree with Manno that this first stage would be somewhat difficult with a blindfold ...
The second stage is where we undertaken the more scientific analysis to see if we can pick what factors actually differed in those bats that score better when compared to the worse performing ones. This would also be done 'blind' in terms of the researcher not knowing which bat was which, but as the tests would be undertaken by machine, their visual appearance wouldn't be a factor.
The suggestion of @edge looks very interesting, and I'll look into it. Fibre scuff sheets (thanks @AlRidd) also look slightly different to what I am used to, so they could be a possibility as well.
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If i were doing a similar test id be inclined to keep both testing (machine v player) very separate. The player tests would serve purely as an insite into the psychology of why we like bat 1 over bat 2. We know looking at this forum as an example that 10 different blokes might prefer 10 different bats just because we're all different. But id still be interested to see the results of players preferences in 3 tests -
1- Blacked out bats. Then....
2- The same blacked out bats, but each bat labelled (incorrectly ;)) for the testers to see, the grade/grains/maker. I realise this test becomes redundant if the players know the bats are labelled incorrectly.
3- Finally bats revealed
That would give the testees ample opportunity to choose 3 different bats as their #1 choice over the three tests. Keeping in mind ive already ruined the effectiveness of test 2 by mentioning it.
But i wouldn't allocate any real value in terms of performance comparison to this player test. That would be achieved by the repeatable machine tests done on each bat.
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I thought the aim of this testing would be to compare the properties of willow, not someones preference for low/mid/high or how a bat "feels" becasue again, reading these forums and all the difference of opinion, thats always going to be subjective and completely separate to how the willow actually performs. Thats all im interested in anyway, comparing the rebound quality between different grades/types of willow. Looking forward to seeing how this project evolves and likely to setup something myself to satisfy my own curiosities.
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I guess id still like to see both.
Pure performance tested mechanically. As well as testing human perception/pre-disposition (as i detailed). But i assumed Stuart would be blind testing perception based on grade and looks rather than profile type, at least thats the way i read the OP. As he states, bats of the same weight, profile and handle will be used. So comparing players perceptions of timber type rather than bat type. As you'd have difficulty hiding the profile but you can "blind" the testee from what a bat looks like. Which makes more sense to me. I also don't see comparing the "feel" if in reference to pickup and balance of identically weighted and profiled bats as particulay valuable, again, because we all might feel something quite different. For mine any subjectivity muddies the data but if Stuart wants to test comparing differently profiled bats or record subjective data its his choice, but i would argue thats an entirely different subject.