Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Matty59 on September 22, 2023, 11:42:04 AM
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Sure I’m not alone in spotting WCW are bringing out a laminate. Are they actually legal to use in league cricket? I’m sure it’ll be a cracking bat, but could be some fun on the way if they’re not technically allowed?
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SG introduced a laminate or 'hybrid' bat this year too. Unsure if it was discussed here or not.
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Not legal for use in competitions...
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I was down with WCW yesterday picking up my old Scat that I’d left with them, had a look at the laminates and discussed them whilst leaving my old TK “performance” lam with them to take a look at.
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We’re you tempted to stock the laminates or wcw generally ?
Or was it a visit for your own personal side
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Are there any batmakers who are making laminates at a reasonable price ? If so I’d definitely be interested in getting my hands on a another or two
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Lorimers do their own brand. £130, absolutely fly.
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We’re you tempted to stock the laminates or wcw generally ?
Or was it a visit for your own personal side
They have a few retailers on board but WCW are a bit too close to me to warrant stocking them as people have far bigger choice going direct given they are 45 mins drive from me here in Bristol.
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Chase used to do them as well, not sure if the still do.
Kookaburra will be doing them in junior bats this year
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they are legal in junior league cricket. not sure why. possibly a cost consideration
have considered getting one for my junior who uses SH 2.11 bat...... but not worth the 'questions'
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Curious, why are they illegal in competitions? I have seen that laminates dont necessarily mean huge edges always but still perform like trampolines. How does that happen?
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enter the batmakers to give the technical details but i'm sure its because the thin layer of willow on the face of the bat is backed by 'glue' to stick it onto the main bulk of willow at the back. Its all in the glue/adhesive
i think
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http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=2157.0
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=13758.0 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=13758.0)
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=27488.0 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=27488.0)
Just a couple of topics which cover Laminates. It won't be everything there is on them, but an interesting discussion nonetheless. The whole thing started from the Stuart Surridge Turbo that Graham Gooch plundered runs with. The actual initial intention of the laminated bat was actually to give a good looking face piece that could be replaced from memory. Just so happened that it had performance enhancing effects too, with the type of glue affecting the rebound. Maybe imagining things or smoking something funky, but I believe batmakers talk about rebound being achieved by a stiff upper layer of willow, with a spongey underbelly giving that ping/trampoline effect. I guess maybe the glue somehow enhances either the stiffness of the upper layer, or enhances the 'springback' mechanism of the porous underlayer. Also a reason why over-oiling can kill the performance of the bat, it might soften the upper layer, and fill up the porous underlayer and solidify, filling up the air-gaps, leading to loss of energy transferred into hitting the ball.
Table tennis also had some specific glues (Containing VOCs) banned from the construction of the racquets which were dubbed 'speed glue', for a mixture of (toxicity) safety/performance enhancing reasons.
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On a similar footing, a few bats I’ve done big delamination repairs on definitely seem to lose nothing performance-wise afterwards. A layer of glue, even an uneven one through layers of delam, certainly does no harm to performance.
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Curious, why are they illegal in competitions? I have seen that laminates dont necessarily mean huge edges always but still perform like trampolines. How does that happen?
They are illigal because the blade of the bat has to be made from a single piece of wood.
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Having used a couple pre-Neon, I'm not convinced it makes any difference to the performance of a bat - for me it's just a way for companies to make a sh*te piece of wood look nice by sticking a pretty face on it, to be brutally honest.
Other than the required craftsmanship involved (which can't be knocked), what's the difference between this and finding a pingy ugly cleft and sticking a fake grain sheet on?
Charging £500+ for 1/12th of a nice cleft and 11/12th's of a piece of junk is incredible business. Unfortunately the public only know what they're told so take it as face value as some magic performance enhancing super cleft when in reality it's just a pretty face stuck on a G4 cleft...
Intrigued to see CBF's view on it. I've no intention of ever selling laminates myself, but would you fork out the extra and trust what you're being told?
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Ive got a Chase performance laminate and it is a belter. I suppose you could never say for sure if its due to the glue and extra face or if its just a good performing cleft underneath. I dont really fancy removing both to test the theory!
The grains on the back of it are significantly better than the ones on the front so I guess Mr Chase believes its all about performance.
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The grains on the back of it are significantly better than the ones on the front so I guess Mr Chase believes its all about performance.
Nice, to be fair Chase are one of the exceptions - I had one off them years back and it was the same case (my gripe is with people doing the opposite, probably should've made that clearer!) but then it also had the cork layer which doesn't appear to be the case with others
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Having used a couple pre-Neon, I'm not convinced it makes any difference to the performance of a bat - for me it's just a way for companies to make a sh*te piece of wood look nice by sticking a pretty face on it, to be brutally honest.
Other than the required craftsmanship involved (which can't be knocked), what's the difference between this and finding a pingy ugly cleft and sticking a fake grain sheet on?
Charging £500+ for 1/12th of a nice cleft and 11/12th's of a piece of junk is incredible business. Unfortunately the public only know what they're told so take it as face value as some magic performance enhancing super cleft when in reality it's just a pretty face stuck on a G4 cleft...
Intrigued to see CBF's view on it. I've no intention of ever selling laminates myself, but would you fork out the extra and trust what you're being told?
I'm in agreement here. For me, laminates are just a way of splitting a very nice cleft into many and making more money (in the main). Which is what the batmaking industry is about generally, certainly at the level of anyone doing it full time. People can say these bats perform much better etc, but as with everything in cricket, there doesn't seem to be any studies to back it up. It would be almost impossible to quantify wouldn't it?
Companies will generally tell you the thing they're selling is better than this or that, but whether that's backed up by facts or not is debatable. Good bats are good bats, but you still have to have ability.
Personally, I wouldn't want to spend money on a bat I couldn't use in a game. But understand some would and some would use them regardless. As some people will look for any edge they can and if they believe a laminate gives them that (rightly or wrongly), then fair enough. As with bigger bats, pro bats etc etc, they certainly won't make anyone score more runs or hit bigger than talent, coaching and effort on training etc imo.
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Next to no chance of being pulled up at club level for using a well made performance laminate. I dont think thats even worth considering when debating whether to buy one or not. Mention laminate to most people outside this forum and they think you're talking about flooring.
Of course if you are highly strung with cricketing morals thats a different story.
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Next to no chance of being pulled up at club level for using a well made performance laminate. I dont think thats even worth considering when debating whether to buy one or not. Mention laminate to most people outside this forum and they think you're talking about flooring.
Of course if you are highly strung with cricketing morals thats a different story.
Wouldn't say I'm highly strung on cricketing morals mate, was just giving an opinion and not having a go at anybody buying one. As I said, fair enough
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Next to no chance of being pulled up at club level for using a well made performance laminate. I dont think thats even worth considering when debating whether to buy one or not. Mention laminate to most people outside this forum and they think you're talking about flooring.
Of course if you are highly strung with cricketing morals thats a different story.
Ah, yes - morals..... where the question is not if it's right or wrong (because you know it's wrong), but "can I get away with it?" :)
To clarify, from the MCC rules, a "Class D" bat may be :
B.7.1 laminated but using only wood and with no more than three pieces.
and
5.8.3 The specifications for Type D bats are described in Appendix B.7 and are for use by
junior players in junior cricket only.
5.8.4 Bats of Type B, Type C, Type D and any other bats may be used only at or below
levels determined by the Governing Body for cricket in the country concerned.
I'll admit I'm not sure what the ECB say on this, or where to find their view. Google did find an official statement from Thames Valley Cricket league in 2016 saying that they were illegal, and umpires had to watch out for them.
If people think it's acceptable for a club team to all use bats that don't conform to MCC rules to get a (percieved) advantage, then they should also find it acceptable for their opposition to use a ball that doesn't conform to the rules in order to get advantage.
Interesting concept though. A change to the rules could open the floodgates to major improvements in bat design and performance. I'm already visualizing a bat faced with a layer of the stuff they make superballs with!
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they are legal in junior league cricket. not sure why. possibly a cost consideration
have considered getting one for my junior who uses SH 2.11 bat...... but not worth the 'questions'
It seems you're spot on. google found this as part of the 2017 bat restriction rule changes:
Bat blades must still be made "solely" of wood, one piece and not coloured, but the MCC law makers have written in concessions for bats size 6 or smaller, in junior cricket. The MCC explained: "In an attempt to reduce the cost of junior bats, lamination (the gluing of two or more pieces of wood) will now be allowed in the blade. This will allow manufacturers to use more off-cuts in bats for juniors, hopefully reducing the price."
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Wouldn't say I'm highly strung on cricketing morals mate, was just giving an opinion and not having a go at anybody buying one. As I said, fair enough
Comment wasn't really directed at you, more towards the OP who sounds like he is considering buying one.
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Ah, yes - morals..... where the question is not if it's right or wrong (because you know it's wrong), but "can I get away with it?" :)
To clarify, from the MCC rules, a "Class D" bat may be :
B.7.1 laminated but using only wood and with no more than three pieces.
and
5.8.3 The specifications for Type D bats are described in Appendix B.7 and are for use by
junior players in junior cricket only.
5.8.4 Bats of Type B, Type C, Type D and any other bats may be used only at or below
levels determined by the Governing Body for cricket in the country concerned.
I'll admit I'm not sure what the ECB say on this, or where to find their view. Google did find an official statement from Thames Valley Cricket league in 2016 saying that they were illegal, and umpires had to watch out for them.
If people think it's acceptable for a club team to all use bats that don't conform to MCC rules to get a (percieved) advantage, then they should also find it acceptable for their opposition to use a ball that doesn't conform to the rules in order to get advantage.
Interesting concept though. A change to the rules could open the floodgates to major improvements in bat design and performance. I'm already visualizing a bat faced with a layer of the stuff they make superballs with!
Please don't quote the rules to me, you sound really boring. I am aware of the rules.
All balls are from the same manufacturer in the League I play in and given to the umpires before each innings. So your crafty plan wouldn't work. Minor ball tampering however is widely accepted without much moaning - shining the ball using illegal fluids, lifting the seam slightly with fingernails, throwing the ball in on the bounce later in the innings, trying to get the ball out of shape so its changed etc. These things happen at club, county and international level and largely pass without incident
Its such a minor thing it really doesn't matter. It doesn't impact player safety. As stated above by 1x professional batmaker and 1x professional retailer - the difference it makes is negligible. Its about having a tiny bit more enjoyment on a saturday. And appreciating the craftsmanship at the same time.
Have you ever appealed for an LBW that you know is probably not out? If so you're a hypocrite
Have you ever driven your car 1mph over the speed limit? If so you're a hypocrite.
Please don't tell the cricket police but I use an Albion helmet with an adjustable grille aswell :o. Naughty naughty