Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: norbs on September 15, 2010, 08:09:15 PM
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Good Evening
Welcome to this evening Bat tech talk please ask away!!!!!
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Do you agree with/promote the use of counter balancing with tape on top of handle, not particularly techie but interested don your views!
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I like to come in at the end of the innings and give the total a good boost, but I generally play straight. However, as I play a good standard the wickets are covered. I was thinking of getting 2 custom made bats, one high middle and one low, any advice on this ?
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Do you agree with/promote the use of counter balancing with tape on top of handle, not particularly techie but interested don your views!
Good evening Peplow and congratulations on the first question
I will make the question techie for you :o
Counter balance with normal tape will take some doing but if you feel the bat is heavy it is an option. You'd have to and an 1oz or 2oz to make a difference
Which leads me onto Cricket bat pickup. Basically pickup is how the bat feels relative to its actual weight on the backlift of the cricket bat swing. Think of a lump hammer with its head flat on the ground and the handle sticking up in the air. Now imagine yourself wielding it like a cricket bat it would feel heavy right? Now the same hammer same length etc but raise the hammer head up the handle towards where you’re griping it…. same hammer same weight but the back lift is lighter? Now add loads of tape to the top of the handle of the hammer and hey presto ligther. That in a nutshell is pickup, it’s relative to the position of the middle [most wood] on a cricket bat
But you promised me you'd make it techie!!!!! >:(
Pick up of a Cricket bat and adding a grip or weights to the handle
Ok you’ve added a grip or some sort of weight to the handle because the cricket bat you have bought picks up like a railway sleeper. The cricket bat feels better with regards to picking up but all of a sudden you’re getting bat vibration from the where the middle was.
<clear throat> The techie bit
The point at which you get the least vibration from the bat is called the coefficient of percussion [COP].
Hmmmm, so by adding weight, e.g. an extra grip, you've moved the centre of mass or the balance point of the cricket bat towards the handle and this moves the COP [the point of least vibration]. That is because the coefficent of percussion is related to the total mass of the cricket bat, the balance point and the moment of inertia…..
So what the fudge does that mean? ???
The cricket bat picks up better but all of sudden the middle feels like it has shifted by about an inch all because of the extra weight at the handle end!
Thanks you, paypal is accepted on all questions answered
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which gives better results, high spine and smaller edges or low spine and bigger edges?
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I don't understand how bigger edges / profile can add to performance of a bat. Isn't the density or mass the defining factor rather than the volume?
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I like to come in at the end of the innings and give the total a good boost, but I generally play straight. However, as I play a good standard the wickets are covered. I was thinking of getting 2 custom made bats, one high middle and one low, any advice on this ?
Not very techie again but I will eloborate for whilst explaining the difference between a high middle and a low middle. You as the batsman need to be comfortable and confident with both
The Higher Middle
This depends sometimes on where you bat, that is, in the batting order and the type of bowler you are facing! If the bowlers you face, more often then not, are pitching it up [not in the sense that it is a fuller deliver but a short pitch ball that bounces high] you'll find yourself playing off the back foot so a higher middle will suit you. Why? because you'll be hitting the ball higher up the bat. A higher middle will make the bat feel lighter and you will be reacting quicker and the swing the bat faster. Also if you are player that like's to cut, play a hook shot etc this is the middle for you.
The Low Middle [Easy Rider Middle]
I like to think if you are a front player and hitting the ball where it is pitched, a low middle will suit you. So if I’m saying that then it must also be if you play on pitches with little bounce. The low middle may make the bat feel heavier. It is more of agressive players bat and a player that drives the ball and suits a lower order batsmen. It provides club like capabilites because of the low middle and drags you through your swing because of momentum and therefore has a fast swing speed. SAF put a low, easy rider, middle on the Audax!!!
The Low Toe Theory :o
Ummm your on a merri-go-round and you stand at the end then your weight is propelled around faster [greater momentum] then if you stand in the middle. By moving the weight of the bat further down it has greater momentum then if it is was distributed around the blade….
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which gives better results, high spine and smaller edges or low spine and bigger edges?
Ola' colesy
This is a very difficult question to answer. As a smaller edge allow more mass in the back of the bat then a larger edge which in generally concaved and has a higher.
It is all about wood mass in general a bat with a larger edge and a bat with a smaller edge that has the same starting weight cleft would perform the same. The smaller edge may have a longer middle and larger edge may have a wider middle but it all depends on the bat profile
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Ola' colesy
This is a very difficult question to answer. As a smaller edge allow more mass in the back of the bat then a larger edge which in generally concaved and has a higher.
It is all about wood mass in general a bat with a larger edge and a bat with a smaller edge that has the same starting weight cleft would perform the same. The smaller edge may have a longer middle and larger edge may have a wider middle but it all depends on the bat profile
I see, so if I bought a more traditional bat like a M&H Solution it would have a longer middle than an Asian bat like a SS which would have a wider middle?
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Ahhh so have you found an optimum yet, or is it different in every cleft?
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I don't understand how bigger edges / profile can add to performance of a bat. Isn't the density or mass the defining factor rather than the volume?
There is swing weight, bat mass, density in the hitting area. It all gets a bit techie… but here goes for a couple of routes for you!!!!
Volume is related to density lets look at grains for an example on performance to answer this question
Older trees are more stable but not as strong as middle-aged trees. Younger trees move more and are not ready to use. Tight grain is what some people prefer, but the grain can be too tight because it will start to lose strength at some point.
As trees grow in one season, they grow faster from spring through summer and more slowly from fall through winter. That is what we see in tree rings. Tighter grain means less space in fast-growing fibre. This space in looser grain is where the moisture stays, which is why tighter grain is more stable than looser grain. Density is also heavier in tighter grain. The increased density means that the wood is stronger. Therefore makes a bat come to life but die’s earlier….
Heartwood is just wood that has lost its sap as it moves out through growth therefore brittle it is also denser….
Ok looking at it on density perspective then tighter grains will make for stiffers blade on the outset but it would mean faults develop quickly… It also means, as you probably know, more weight for the same given volume…
Performace of bats is related to a number of things and wood mass in the hitting area is one of them.
Ok cricket bat performance
There are a few ways of looking at why a cricket bat performs and a few schools of thought all correct in there own way.
Let start with Newtons Law!
As you probably know from phyiscs for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, also energy cannot be created or destroyed it can be transfered or transformed converted from one form to another.
The upshot is though, as you can all probably guess, is to transfer as much of the energy you are exerting to swing the bat to the ball and conserve as much of the energy of the bowled ball speed. A real life example is hotspot. We’ve all seen hotspot that is energy loss due to heat from the cricket ball hitting the cricket bat
So what are the performance options!
There is the option of having increased stiffness, a bat that doesn’t absorb the energy of bowled ball. So for example the Bowler transfers his energy to the ball and bat transfers it back [hopefully] If the cricket bat vibrates as we know it does on impact it absorbs some of the energy. Therefore the less vibration of the bat the less energy absorbtion and the greater the energy transfer.
There is the option of having an elastic bat. A bat that has the ability to hold the ball in the hitting area so the bat vibrates far enough through a cycle so it acts as a trampoline. Basically vibrations are wave’s in simple terms if the ball can be held at the point of impact for the time it takes the wave to go down on impact and then back up again. There is effecitivly a rebound effect.
Imagine yourself on a see-saw you go and the guy at the other end is slightly heavier then you get him up but when he comes downs you ping off the seat.
Believe it or not cricket bat handles make a difference
Then there is the player holding the bat and what he is comfortable with and what makes him confident.
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I see, so if I bought a more traditional bat like a M&H Solution it would have a longer middle than an Asian bat like a SS which would have a wider middle?
Colesy there is no theoretical answer to this question they may both perform the same but looking at in terms of wood distribution then yes but like I said that answer is not a definitive answer
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Ahhh so have you found an optimum yet, or is it different in every cleft?
Generally I balance to same position but on a bat by bat basis
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Norbs, what is the difference between a whippy and stiff handle? Does either effect performnce of a cleft? Is there any advantages of one compared to the other?
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Is it possible to create a sweet-spot on a bat where there is not the most wood.
Say you have a standard bat with a low middle, M&H Solution shape, is it possible to create a bat with the same shape but the middle higher up ala Harlequin?
If that makes sense.
I'll think of more questions!!
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What is the advantage of having a laminate? Would the two layers stiffen the blade? Or is it to allow more volume for the same weight (by having a lighter wood at the back)? And is volume of a bat directly related to its performance?
Thanks in advance!
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Norbs, what is the difference between a whippy and stiff handle? Does either effect performnce of a cleft? Is there any advantages of one compared to the other?
A Whippy handle will help with this below:
There is the option of having an elastic bat. A bat that has the ability to hold the ball in the hitting area so the bat vibrates far enough through a cycle so it acts as a trampoline. Basically vibrations are wave’s in simple terms if the ball can be held at the point of impact for the time it takes the wave to go down on impact and then back up again. There is effecitivly a rebound effect.
I prefer a stiff handle because
There is the option of having increased stiffness, a bat that doesn’t absorb the energy of bowled ball. So for example the Bowler transfers his energy to the ball and bat transfers it back [hopefully] If the cricket bat vibrates as we know it does on impact it absorbs some of the energy. Therefore the less vibration of the bat the less energy absorbtion and the greater the energy transfer.
By the way I differ in opinion to a very very good bat maker on this so a good question!!!!!
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Is it possible to create a sweet-spot on a bat where there is not the most wood.
Say you have a standard bat with a low middle, M&H Solution shape, is it possible to create a bat with the same shape but the middle higher up ala Harlequin?
If that makes sense.
I'll think of more questions!!
Yes theoretically you could move the coefficeint of precussion to an area where there is less willow
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Norbs,
As a front foot, pitch of the ball type player i like having the 'low rider' type shape, lots of meat behind the drive.
I also play at a semi-decent standard with some quite quick bowling on hard tracks.
So i'd like a light pick-up/quick bat speed coupled with a decent sized low end of the bat for my main scoring shots.
Possible?
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What is the advantage of having a laminate? Would the two layers stiffen the blade? Or is it to allow more volume for the same weight (by having a lighter wood at the back)? And is volume of a bat directly related to its performance?
Thanks in advance!
Kaz yes basically the end goal for laminates is to stiffen the blade but alot are shocking and no better then a normal bat
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Norbs,
As a front foot, pitch of the ball type player i like having the 'low rider' type shape, lots of meat behind the drive.
I also play at a semi-decent standard with some quite quick bowling on hard tracks.
So i'd like a light pick-up/quick bat speed coupled with a decent sized low end of the bat for my main scoring shots.
Possible?
You put my next question into words for me, thank you :)
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Great minds and all that... 8)
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Correct
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Norbs,
As a front foot, pitch of the ball type player i like having the 'low rider' type shape, lots of meat behind the drive.
I also play at a semi-decent standard with some quite quick bowling on hard tracks.
So i'd like a light pick-up/quick bat speed coupled with a decent sized low end of the bat for my main scoring shots.
Possible?
I'd hate to say this but I would suggest you'd need an offset middle - where you either have a lower edge and high spine or low spine and higher edge. It allows you to get the pickup right, the swing speed feel for the front foot and keeps the middle in the right areas
Other options would be bats like the Black Cat voodoo or M&H Distiniction
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How would you get the kids to go to bed if you were busy tapping willow and their bedtime had passed???
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How would you get the kids to go to bed if you were busy tapping willow and their bedtime had passed???
Hmmm good question....
Cheese strings, no honey and toast and another viewing of the Simpson to bribe them so they don't tell there Mum
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I might ask your wife that same question but fear I'll get the blame......
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How efficient are bats? Ie approximately what proportion of energy is transfered back onto the ball, assuming the ball hits the middle? I know there are lots and lots of factors..but just curious how much performance could yet be gained. Even a very very rough figure would be amazing, as i havent got the slightest clue.
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Explain the tapping up theory, and not the kind Chelski do :)
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Norbs, you have pretty much answered a discussion that petehosk and I were having earlier.
It raises an interesting question for a bat maker though. If you were to make two bats of equal weight, and as close as possible identical profile, from different density willows, would you see a performance difference?
I am happy to put myself forward to tet this, if someone wants to make the bats... :D
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I might ask your wife that same question but fear I'll get the blame......
Luckily shes away
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You should really release the hound 10 seconds before bedtime.....
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How efficient are bats? Ie approximately what proportion of energy is transfered back onto the ball, assuming the ball hits the middle? I know there are lots and lots of factors..but just curious how much performance could yet be gained. Even a very very rough figure would be amazing, as i havent got the slightest clue.
Yep loads or factors from pressing, shaping and to the shot selection of the player himself
but if you think you can get a 33% performance from the handle [illegal] alone you can see what potential there is!
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Explain the tapping up theory, and not the kind Chelski do :)
tap with fingers listen ,look either happy or disgusted depending on the discount you are after. has to be done with confidence though :D
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Norbs, you have pretty much answered a discussion that petehosk and I were having earlier.
It raises an interesting question for a bat maker though. If you were to make two bats of equal weight, and as close as possible identical profile, from different density willows, would you see a performance difference?
I am happy to put myself forward to tet this, if someone wants to make the bats... :D
hmmmm when you say identical profiles do you mean the same size [area]
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Two identical bats but one made with a different density willow to the other?
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Two identical bats but one made with a different density willow to the other?
They can't be identical
Density = Mass / Volume
So I asked the question
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If you insert rubber strips into a handle to give it more flexibility, then GN put Titanium into the handle what affect does this give?
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No, they won't be identical, but given that they can be of similar shape and have the sweet spot in about the same area, as close to identical as you can get with two different density pieces of willow. I guess something like giving them both a Redback Surefire shape.
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Norbs
i understand using lighter clefts give the batmaker scope to produce bigger bats for the weight, but in theory your still hitting the ball with say a 2.8 bat, so why will this perform better than say a smaller profiled 2.8 (heavier wood)?
I think what im trying to ask is can you produce a bat at 2.7/2.8 that will out perform any 2.10/2.11 bat
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Norbs
i understand using lighter clefts give the batmaker scope to produce bigger bats for the weight, but in theory your still hitting the ball with say a 2.8 bat, so why will this perform better than say a smaller profiled 2.8 (heavier wood)?
I think what im trying to ask is can you produce a bat at 2.7/2.8 that will out perform any 2.10/2.11 bat
Spot on Canners. That's what I was wondering, in a round about way. And as an adjunct to the question, would a 2lb11oz bat from a less dense cleft perform better than one from a denser cleft?
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Norbs
i understand using lighter clefts give the batmaker scope to produce bigger bats for the weight, but in theory your still hitting the ball with say a 2.8 bat, so why will this perform better than say a smaller profiled 2.8 (heavier wood)?
I think what im trying to ask is can you produce a bat at 2.7/2.8 that will out perform any 2.10/2.11 bat
Spot on Canners. That's what I was wondering, in a round about way. And as an adjunct to the question, would a 2lb11oz bat from a less dense cleft perform better than one from a denser cleft?
Lets get a couple of things right here 1st now the question is easier to understand. 2 bats of equal weight [mass], and as close as possible identical profile [volume] will have the same density ;)
Secondly Tim2000s as much as I like Gary and love the Surefire I'd probably try this with 2 SAF Fabrica's :D :D
Ok this is question Talisman and me discussed a few years ago now on another forum!!!! I believe that makes us pioneers
Swing weight of a cricket bat & batted ball speed!
What the blimming heck are you on about now?
If you have 2 bats one heavier then the other and you can swing them at the same speed [assuming the ball speed is constant for both] then based on theoretical momentum equations the heavier bat will win…. :o
Why!?!
as the batted ball velocity depends on the mass of the ball and bat. The elasticity of the ball, bowling ball speed and the bat swing speed. The other bit of this is based on moment of interia and with this you get into the realms of coefficient of restitution and coefficent of precussion.
Huh!!!!!
The techie bits as I know you love them
Ok something quick on both Coefficient of Restitution [CoR] [Ping] . CoR is the square root of rebound height divided by Original height. [this just gives you a number as you probably know]. But you can understand, see and measure a rebound difference between two cricket bats. CoR is dependant on a number of things but in this context it is related to the cricket bat shape and where it hits [or lands] on the bat.
Centre of percussion [CoP] - hang a bat where you normally hold it and hit it with a mallet. At the point it swings like a pendulum that is the CoP. Or when playing its when the ball hits the cricket bat at a point that it neither pushes your hands forwards or backwards.
Hold on to your hats the Math
Ok it is getting a bit scary now so I should stop but I won’t [a sly grin] There are varying articles on this [mainly baseball, some tennis and limited number on cricket bats!!!]
The general consenus though is this equation:
Batted ball speed = q x Velocity of ball + (1 + q)Velocity of bat
Where q is calculated as follow q is the Bouncabilty of a bat or Apparent Coefficient of Restitution [ACoR]
For CoR q = CoR - r / 1 + r
r is made up of many factors and it beings to get overly technical at this point and I dont want to go down that road…. you are bored already!!!!
In simple terms q can be defined as Velocity of ball after the collision [divided by] Velocity of ball before collision. [Velocity, by the way if you want to drop a ball on a bat and measure it for a baseline and rebound to calculate q, is Distance / time]
Ok some theoretical calculations for batted ball speeds
Which Cricket bat is better, stick with me here….
[A Big Note: Made up numbers for the forum for q and velocity but proper calculations with those numbers]
A normal cricket bat, our datum point…. [Example 1]
q = 0.45
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
[color=]Ball exit speed is 99.5
Now add 10% on the cricket bat mass resulting in a slightly slower bat speed lets say 10% slower and lets keep it 10% and for the increase in q [bouncabilty] which is Apparent CoR or [ACOR]
So [Example 2]
q = 0.5
Vel of bat = 45
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 97.5
Ok let assume you have a bat and the swing weight is the same as the first bat but has more mass therefore a higher q [ACOR]
[Example 3 - Canners - Tim please note this is the same as the bat in Example 1 but with more mass]
q = 0.5
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 105
Are you still talking about Cricket Bats?
So what do those theoretical values tell us… Swing speed offset against bat weight is when plotted on a graph is a curve it slowly raises and plato’s and then slowly drops off.
Therefore there is a range of bat weights that with good pickup will allow you to have the same reaction time and swing speed but due the weight distribution in the bat areas of mass etc and ball impact points you can raise the ACOR [q] bouncabiity.
Mass behind the sweet spot [hopefully in the main hitting area] will be ideal especially if the swing weight of the bat means you are hitting the ball at close to maximum speeds in the position and batting shapes you normally hit a ball at… [that is your normal ball impact areas] cricket bat middle postion etc etc
Does this mean there is an optimum weight for everyone, depending on their strength?
Yes this optimum weight would be where they could swing the bat fastest and without to much compromise on size of the bat.
Few is that it my coffee got cold?
No sorry, willow is organic a live piece of timber and you will never really know how a bat will go until it is used. But being the person that I am I like to get an idea on the science behind it all and it is complex due to the numerous varibles associated to the timber and person using it and level at which it is all used.
My view is a bat with good pickup allowing someone to use a slightly heavier bat or wood mass distributed properly with the middle in the correct place will go a long way in to giving a batsman what he wants….
Finally…..
You don’t always slog the ball and I will agree with you pratical, theoretical and variation on ball, bat and bowling speeds doesn’t make it conclusive but you can get a good baseline and I hope it makes sense
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Please note Norbs - Bat Tech questions are now closed
I might do this again I might not
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Will get my mate to explain the last one to me when I see him on sat as he is a physics nut
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So, basically, two bats with the same mass but made of different density willow having similar shape and similarly positioned sweet spot, but not necessarily identical profiles should, according to the maths, provide similar performance....
Happy to test the theory with a couple of Fabricas..... Got a couple of the same weight but made from different density willow clefts around? ;)
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Great stuff Norbs....taking me back to my uni days now with a hangover and introductory mathematics etc!!! All makes sense to me even without my morning cuppa inside me as yet :)
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Norbs next time you do this please can it be when Arsenal arent on the telly, also i think a bit of advance warning wouldnt go a miss that way i can tell the mrs to stay at hers for the night lol
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So, basically, two bats with the same mass but made of different density willow having similar shape and similarly positioned sweet spot, but not necessarily identical profiles should, according to the maths, provide similar performance....
Happy to test the theory with a couple of Fabricas..... Got a couple of the same weight but made from different density willow clefts around? ;)
Tim there are loads of variables but if the swing weight of the bat and the bouncabilty at the middle is the same for both bats then yes
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Norbs next time you do this please can it be when Arsenal arent on the telly, also i think a bit of advance warning wouldnt go a miss that way i can tell the mrs to stay at hers for the night lol
For a free advertisers slot 2 pints of Bounders Cider and some peanuts yep :D :D :D
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Cheers. Assuming CoR is the same for different densities of material but the same mass, what's the benefit of big thick edges?
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Cheers. Assuming CoR is the same for different densities of material but the same mass, what's the benefit of big thick edges?
CLOSED :D
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Norbs
Awesome.
I do hope there will be a next time!