Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: jonpinson on December 01, 2010, 06:22:18 PM
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I think it is fair to say the pics of the Legends at Romida have been met with a lukewarm reception. I happen to think the examples are acceptable for the price, but others disagree. Now, let us think about this. To the batmakers of the forum, is it possible to make the elusive 'perfect bat' for, lets say £320? Is the willow common enough that you all have workable examples kicking around? I suppose by perfect we mean ultimate performance and visually flawless.
I genuinely don't know and would be interested in your thoughts. Are the GNs a rip off? Or do they represent realism?
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I thought they looked great tbh, there's approx 350 out there and if all look like that or similar then they're a good investment (presuming they play well also)
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I thought they looked great tbh, there's approx 350 out there and if all look like that or similar then they're a good investment (presuming they play well also)
Yeah I think alot of people were expecting them to look like that infamous Laver. Must remember that bat cost £500 more.
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And I would guess that Laver makes less than 4% of the bats GN do. There may be 1 Legend out there which looks like the infamous Laver - but there's also another 349 which won't.
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i honestly thought the first one looked Amazing!
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http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=5304.0
H4L had them a while back ......... much cheaper and better looking i think
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[url]http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=5304.0[/url]
H4L had them a while back ......... much cheaper and better looking i think
Struggling to find an adequate swear word! Amazing.
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And I would guess that Laver makes less than 4% of the bats GN do. There may be 1 Legend out there which looks like the infamous Laver - but there's also another 349 which won't.
Yeah and sadly that 1 is being put to good use by Mr Strauss!
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Come on, this is a good opportunity for the makers to promote their quality and value, if it is as easy to do as some members have suggested... ;)
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I wouldn't think so as bat makers on here arent going to be ordering the volume of willow that brands such as GN/GM and the big boys do in order to find the 1% premium willow.
Unless they have their own trees then that would give them direct access if they get lucky :) As per matts example I'm not sure if it was his own willow or from elsewhere ?? Undoubtedly Matt could have charged £300 for those bats by comparism!!
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can somone link me to the legend thread?
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I'm sure every bat maker has the odd wonder cleft, I'd be surprised if any of the bat makers (bar GM) on here sell over 300-500 bats a year. In which case they'd only get a couple of them a year, unless as Tom says they have their own trees or are on very good terms with a willow baron. In which case they'll have a few more.
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I wouldn't think so as bat makers on here arent going to be ordering the volume of willow that brands such as GN/GM and the big boys do in order to find the 1% premium willow.
Unless they have their own trees then that would give them direct access if they get lucky :) As per matts example I'm not sure if it was his own willow or from elsewhere ?? Undoubtedly Matt could have charged £300 for those bats by comparism!!
Interesting, and a point I was hoping someone would make. If these Legends are not up to task in some people's eyes, show me a reliable source of consistantly better looking bats for the same or lower price. I don't think you'll find anyone. Ok, alot of the Black Cat willow looks on a par, but every one? Please, if I'm wrong, say. I mean to offend noone. Just the seeming unwillingness to discuss this irritates.
Can a small maker hope to get his hands on a volume of exceptional wood that makes offering a similar G1++ feasible? I don't see anyone offering it. Mr SAF offers this type of willow, but the customer has to wait for a piece to come in. Laver operate a waiting list for their version and charge a grand. Newbery, for all the bats they make, state only a few of these will be made, and charge a grand.
This is why I would really like to hear from the makers on here. I'm striving to understand this, it fascinates me. It isn't a dark art, I guess some of it is pure luck as to what arrives in the delivery. Buy enough willow and the holy grail shall come, perhaps. Or be unlucky and never see one. Do some just not see what all the fuss is about and would charge no more and think nothing of one of these mystical beasts?
Over to you gents, the people that know.
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Honestly, I thought those were perfectly and looked £320 bat without any doubt. I am not too sure about its performance but lookwise it was definately looking like a £320+ bat. The only good bat with similar grains I have seen in my life is Laver but again that Laver is almost double the price of this bat.
to me it looked like it was premium willow bat and definately looks like the 1% one.
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I'm sure every bat maker has the odd wonder cleft, I'd be surprised if any of the bat makers (bar GM) on here sell over 300-500 bats a year. In which case they'd only get a couple of them a year, unless as Tom says they have their own trees or are on very good terms with a willow baron. In which case they'll have a few more.
I think (without having anything to back it up) you are probably right. I think more are cottoning on to it, too. Just think, lots of makers recently offering super premium extreme limited edition models, and charging accordingly. Can't remember that happening 10 years ago. Ok, apart from Kooka who offered a LE of 300 of each model, but that is 900 clefts a year, not the estimated 350 for GN here.
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Honestly, I thought those were perfectly and looked £320 bat without any doubt. I am not too sure about its performance but lookwise it was definately looking like a £320+ bat. The only good bat with similar grains I have seen in my life is Laver but again that Laver is almost double the price of this bat.
to me it looked like it was premium willow bat and definately looks like the 1% one.
I do too, I'm just playing Devil's advocate. The not-overly-positive response that they gained did nothing to put me off my quest, but it does open up a good debate. It is a fascinating subject that few who have answers seem willing to get involved in, and I've noticed batmakers reading this thread.
Let us not get too hung up on looks alone though. A respected forum member I'm sure would tell you density is more of a factor, and grains are really not important. So forgetting all else for a moment, it should be said that no matter how good these super bats are, part of it is us wanting something pretty too.
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Guess its a law of averages...if we sold 200 bats a year 2 of them might come out looking like the legend examples you posted. If your making 40,000 bats a year 400 might turn out to be like this.
As mentioned above the boys of here might get lucky and land one which i think they should charge accordingly for in order to cash in on their luck so to speak.
You can't force a tree to produce a cleft with 16+ perfectly straight grains as its a natural product that has its own agenda....therefore when a true beauty does come along a limited edition is obviously an attractive option to maximise profits as the raw willow wont have cost any extra or the bat making process.
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Guess its a law of averages...if we sold 200 bats a year 2 of them might come out looking like the legend examples you posted. If your making 40,000 bats a year 400 might turn out to be like this.
As mentioned above the boys of here might get lucky and land one which i think they should charge accordingly for in order to cash in on their luck so to speak.
You can't force a tree to produce a cleft with 16+ perfectly straight grains as its a natural product that has its own agenda....therefore when a true beauty does come along a limited edition is obviously an attractive option to maximise profits as the raw willow wont have cost any extra or the bat making process.
Plus of course all that assumes everyone is on the straight and narrow, that everyone gets the same mix of quality, that the super stuff isn't cherry picked. I have no proof for it, of course, but hell, if I could sell a cleft for double the normal, I'd be motivated to look for them.
Good point about nature too. This year there could be none, as I said earlier, nature doesn't do straight lines and sub millimetre perfect spacings...
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its all pot luck what stunning clefts you get from wrights !the 1% rule is spot on really, it all depends what is avaliable . To produce a cleft with 20+ grains has to be 40 year old + trees bloody hard to find! the value to a grower would be to cut the tree as soon as the min 56'' is ready ,to get his money why leave for another 20 years? The tighter older trees are normally the plantations that have been forgoten about over the years.
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its all pot luck what stunning clefts you get from wrights !the 1% rule is spot on really, it all depends what is avaliable . To produce a cleft with 20+ grains has to be 40 year old + trees bloody hard to find! the value to a grower would be to cut the tree as soon as the min 56'' is ready ,to get his money why leave for another 20 years? The tighter older trees are normally the plantations that have been forgoten about over the years.
Thankyou Matt, I was hoping you would reply. I'd not considered it from that point of view. This is exactly why I wanted someone in the know to get involved.
Cheers
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I'm sure every bat maker has the odd wonder cleft, I'd be surprised if any of the bat makers (bar GM) on here sell over 300-500 bats a year. In which case they'd only get a couple of them a year, unless as Tom says they have their own trees or are on very good terms with a willow baron. In which case they'll have a few more.
i can conform CHASE sold over 500 bats last season oh sorry he does not advertise on here
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i can conform CHASE sold over 500 bats last season oh sorry he does not advertise on here
Does Chase make a super premium model?
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they make 10 ranges and 3 models mate but this forum is not the place to discuss Chase bud it a forum for the sponsors and not Chase there many good bats from the sponsors bud
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they make 10 ranges and 3 models mate but this forum is not the place to discuss Chase bud it a forum for the sponsors and not Chase there many good bats from the sponsors bud
I thought it was a forum to talk about all cricket equipment ????
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ok yes they make a special premium model but as i have said there are some very good bats of this forum
Chase new premier model has not been released yet
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I'm not sure what your intentions are but it is clear you didn't post in this thread to add to the conversation. If you have a problem with the way the forum is run, I'm sure the Admins would be happy to listen to your concerns :)
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there are some very good bats of this forum
haha dont worry i was most definitely not disagreeing with that !
i just think we should give time to all bats :)
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Who Jon me
i just answered a little question that was posed as a bidding batmaker well not quite there yet and as a avid cricket fan
hope this helps you if not please fell free to pm...
I answered a question correctly and also if you look you find i got the actual batmakers/retailers bat from Chase but because i support other brands on here which if you took the time to look at you would understand
I have no hidden agenda mate
you asked a question too about them so as a forum intrest follows
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oh forgot i also own a Laver and have owned many in my time and yes Dan at Chase made me a carbon copy of my Private Bin with the same grain structure as James himself uses on his top 20 per cent of bats but you never gave me time to explaim myself
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chase are (No Swearing Please) mate! just face it.
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The real question is Jonpinson are you going to buy one?!
If I had X amount of cash available I would have one.
Then again if I had X amount of cash i would be like petehosk and have one of every bat available! I would probably use some of them as firewood too... just because I could lol
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The real question is Jonpinson are you going to buy one?!
If I had X amount of cash available I would have one.
Then again if I had X amount of cash i would be like petehosk and have one of every bat available! I would probably use some of them as firewood too... just because I could lol
I wouldn't have emailed 4 companies and ran two threads if I didn't intend on buying one :)
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Interesting though Simmy and you assumption is based on what mate
i follow no trends ask some of the sponsors on here they will tell you i buy off them i buy for quality hense why i suspect my kit is as good as anybody on here infact sounding very smug i know it is
Simmy i like most of your post but find your last one a tad stupid i would go as far as saying you have never even tried Dans kit at all
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Gents I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions, can we leave the fighting out? It is nothing to do with the topic of the thread, and chances are you are going to wake up tomorrow and feel a bit of a tit when you look back.
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trust me i aint like i said i tried to explain myself when somebody knocked a brand i know very well and i not having it simple sponsor or no sponsor
Jon i understand what your after but why buy a GN when you could just buy A Laver for the price and a very nice PB at that
and i sure some of the sponsors on here could sort you out for the price
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I think a laver would end up costing a lot more
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mine did not 280 plus 30 for knocking in had to pay no fees because James put it down as a gift
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mine did not 280 plus 30 for knocking in had to pay no fees because James put it down as a gift
They work out considerably more now the exchange rate has gone bad.
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On that note Jon, have you put in an open request for the batmakers on the forum to provide you with a quote for a legend like bat with 20 odd straight grains and see what they come back with. Clearly the willow is difficult to come by? Maybe Talisman has a couple of 40 year old trees he could chop for you?
On the Laver topic, Lavers are now very expensive thanks to the changes in exchange rate. The basic Carbo Churchill has changed from £165 last year to £220 now, so you won't get a PB at the price stated anymore. In addition, whether or not he puts it down as a gift, you may still get costoms charges, especially as he uses someone like Fedex now who charge for pretty much everything.
On the Chase topic, I've the ex-pro Chase bat that's been doing the rounds on here now, and it seems sound enough from the mallet. I'll post a comment regarding its performance when I've used it in the nets properly.
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Interesting though Simmy and you assumption is based on what mate
cos u talk some right (No Swearing Please) lol
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Simmy i like most of your post but find your last one a tad stupid i would go as far as saying you have never even tried Dans kit at all
ive used a chase bat was small about 2.7 had laminated toe
wasnt all that tbh bit of a disapointment compared to some of the other bats on here
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Now now sim let's not go there it's just a disscsion on cricket bats plus it's just a forum
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The difficulty isn't getting a bat that performs excellently, the problem is getting a bat with the looks that people perceive make a bat justifiable for the cost. In general the clefts with more grains are heavier / more dense so it makes it difficult and rare for someone to get hold of a cleft with all sapwood and loads of grains that is light based on the volumes bought. Also some willow merchants hold them back and are not offered in the batches for sale but can be available on request if you build a relationship and they have some.
edit: Just had a quick read through and Matty H4L gives a great explanation for this as well
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On that note Jon, have you put in an open request for the batmakers on the forum to provide you with a quote for a legend like bat with 20 odd straight grains and see what they come back with.
I hoped that is how this thread might be interpreted. I would have no problem with people assuming that is what I was aiming for.
It is pretty obvious I think what I'm trying to do here. I got a bit annoyed yesterday at the reaction to the Legends by certain people, so I am trying to justify their price to everyone, myself included.
If I ordered a Private Bin, it would cost more, and would be made from the third best grade of willow that Laver has. I don't see the value in it. Laver's top 20% of his willow isn't going to be somehow magically better than the top 1% that GN gets. Alot of this is hokum and mumbo jumbo. 'If it costs more, it must be better' etc.
I'm still waiting to be told about a viable alternative, a maker who has enough wood of this quality regularly in stock, who will do a bat for under £320. It is amazing that those who were so quick to criticise the Legends yesterday with comments like 'I'd expect perfection for £320' haven't reappeared showing me these mythical batmakers who must make them flawless bats for £100 all the time.
Strange.
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Not sure whose been saying what with regards to mythical batmakers but let me ask you a question
What do you expect from bat costing that much money!
I ask because, like I said previously, it is the buyers perception that determines the cost. Let me use an example, the bat I sent off to AOC last year for the gear test - 8 grains, v-small stain on the face, classic shape and I thought exceptional performance. Would you guys accept/be happy with a bat like that for £300+ pounds!!!!
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I hoped that is how this thread might be interpreted. I would have no problem with people assuming that is what I was aiming for.
It is pretty obvious I think what I'm trying to do here. I got a bit annoyed yesterday at the reaction to the Legends by certain people, so I am trying to justify their price to everyone, myself included.
If I ordered a Private Bin, it would cost more, and would be made from the third best grade of willow that Laver has. I don't see the value in it. Laver's top 20% of his willow isn't going to be somehow magically better than the top 1% that GN gets. Alot of this is hokum and mumbo jumbo. 'If it costs more, it must be better' etc.
I'm still waiting to be told about a viable alternative, a maker who has enough wood of this quality regularly in stock, who will do a bat for under £320. It is amazing that those who were so quick to criticise the Legends yesterday with comments like 'I'd expect perfection for £320' haven't reappeared showing me these mythical batmakers who must make them flawless bats for £100 all the time.
Strange.
I think, Jon, that the perception is that for £320 you'd be getting as close to a perfect bit of willow as you can get, straight grains (I'm not sure if they'd be bothered about quantity of grains, just quality mainly?) And that you could get similar standards of willow for lower prices, for example my County bat has 14 or 15 dead straight grains, but a bit of heartwood, and that cost £150, but I'd be willing to pay a bit more. I'm sure performance-wise those GNs are up with the best of them, but for me no cricket bat is really worth £320! I'm not sure anybody is saying that for £100 you'll find a 'perfect-looking' bat, but their view is that for that price you'd expect, I don't know, straight up and down grains I suppose!
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And just think, Andy, you sold me a bat for £100, which has equally exceptional performance - although it doesn't have 20 perfect grains...
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If the bat had excellent performance I couldn't care less if it had knots, stains and 1 wavy grain.
Psychological factors aside
You're not looking at the bat face when you hit the ball.
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SAF:
In truth I don't know. There are a seemingly countless list of makers from whom you can get a top performing bat for £200 or under, yourself included. I do understand looks do not equal performance, but I think the perception with the Legend is you will be getting performance and looks, which is a much rarer thing. I've never been bothered by looks in the past, I have had some lookers for sure, but it was never the primary importance.
Let me throw the question back to you then, the AOC bat which I think you have said would have fallen into your £180 bracket was clearly a top performer. With that in mind, what do you base your inaugural grade on? What will the customer be told to expect from it above your standard top grade? Are we actually just talking about the same thing?
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If the bat had excellent performance I couldn't care less if it had knots, stains and 1 wavy grain.
Psychological factors aside
You're not looking at the bat face when you hit the ball.
Preach brother!! Totally agree with that. My Uzi only has 9 grains, they aren't picture perfect but its performance is un matched!
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would it be right to say alot of people assume it will be an amazing performing bat just cos it looks pretty
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would it be right to say alot of people assume it will be an amazing performing bat just cos it looks pretty
If there was a nail you might of hit it on its head.
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would it be right to say alot of people assume it will be an amazing performing bat just cos it looks pretty
Expecially the case when buying on here and every bat has super 'ping', it's all you've got to go on really.
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the thing is you cant tell how well a bat is pressed by the number of grains. I would be more inclined to buy a bat cos its got a massive profile for its weight, rather than it having 'x' number of grains
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SAF:
In truth I don't know. There are a seemingly countless list of makers from whom you can get a top performing bat for £200 or under, yourself included. I do understand looks do not equal performance, but I think the perception with the Legend is you will be getting performance and looks, which is a much rarer thing. I've never been bothered by looks in the past, I have had some lookers for sure, but it was never the primary importance.
Let me throw the question back to you then, the AOC bat which I think you have said would have fallen into your £180 bracket was clearly a top performer. With that in mind, what do you base your inaugural grade on? What will the customer be told to expect from it above your standard top grade? Are we actually just talking about the same thing?
They get what you said above, the looks and performance but that said everyone that asks me even on the Limited Edition gets told about the Grade 1 [Premier Willow] bat
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would it be right to say alot of people assume it will be an amazing performing bat just cos it looks pretty
I think when it is this much money, that is a fair thing to assume.
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the thing is you cant tell how well a bat is pressed by the number of grains. I would be more inclined to buy a bat cos its got a massive profile for its weight, rather than it having 'x' number of grains
You are quite right, that is sensible.
I however, am not.
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Who said you could get a perfect bat for £100?
I was one of the 'certain' people who werent impressed with the pictures but isnt that are individual right to expect what we deem to be a near enough perfect bat for £320?
At the end of the day its your money and you spend your money you take your chance and its for you to decide whether it is worth ot, I think you will be waiting a very long time if you think you can persuade everyone on here that the legends are worth £320. Price is only determined by what people will pay for an object and some of us maybe naively expect an exceptional, flawless piece of willow for £320!