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Author Topic: England v Sri Lanka series  (Read 34791 times)

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roco

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #240 on: June 04, 2014, 01:30:29 PM »

Who needs a voice of calm, this is much more fun ;) I love it when stuff like this happens!

must just be me getting old

having played a very high standard of cricket when younger against certain international players who were proing at the time the action on tv looks worse than in real life but we will see when he is tested

the whole bent arm spinner thing is because we coach it out or stamp it out as we have had very good bent arm bowlers who could bowl ball both ways (I have seen them) but they are told by counties and so called decent coaches that they will never make a cricketer bowling like that so they change

its legal now so lets do it as you can change action in testing it just seems we are getting left behind by not embracing this as it is going to stay so adapt or perish
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Number4

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #241 on: June 04, 2014, 01:38:39 PM »

I think testing is a farce as the action can be totally adjusted by the bowler because he doesn't want to be found to be chucking, which in my opinion 90% of the spinners today who have suspect actions are chuckers... Simply my opinion
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sgcricket

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #242 on: June 04, 2014, 02:16:32 PM »

I beg to disagree, technically chuck=throw. If you are visibly straightening the arm, no matter to what degree, you are throwing. The difference is that in the last 10 years it has become okay to visibly throw the ball when bowling, up to a 15 degree limit, whereas in the preceding 350 years, it wasn't.

i beg to disagree. for all these years people were not within the old limits. that was proved by ICC. that is why they changed the limits. saying stuff like in the past zillion years, doesn't make the argument any more sound...
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brokenbat

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #243 on: June 04, 2014, 02:33:42 PM »

who needs to watch Game of Thrones, when we have this. gripping, intense, and equally violent !
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tim2000s

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #244 on: June 04, 2014, 03:02:54 PM »

i beg to disagree. for all these years people were not within the old limits. that was proved by ICC. that is why they changed the limits. saying stuff like in the past zillion years, doesn't make the argument any more sound...
If you look at the history of the limits relating to what was defined as a chuck, the laws evolved as follows:

Overarm bowling was legalised in 1864. From this point, straightening the arm was determined by the onfield umpires, visually.

In the 1990s, some 135 years after overarm bowling was legalised, the 10 degrees for fast bowlers, 7.5 degrees for medium pacers and 5 degrees for spinners rule was introduced. This followed testing that demonstrated that it was impossible to bowl without flexing the arm to some extent. The margin of error in the measurements leading to these limits was 1 degree.

During 2000-2003, a study was undertaken looking at a number of elite fast bowlers that showed there was an average of 9 degrees of flex with some getting 10-15. The margin for error in these tests was 3 degrees, suggesting that the range being observed could be 0 to 18 degrees. This is what initiated the review into what was an illegal action.

Note that in both these cases, none of the bowlers were being visually called for throwing.

Following this, during a number of competitions, bowlers were observed and measured and during the 2004 Champions Trophy, all bowlers had 3D video analysis undertaken. The result?  The average extension of a normal, seemingly legal delivery was 8-10 degrees for all bowler types. The were almost no examples of zero flexion.

In 2005, the limit was chosen after considering biomechanical findings from 130 pace and spin bowlers, the scientific issues with measurement, and that bowling actions considered to be "throw-like", or illegal, were usually measured to be well above 15 degrees of elbow extension, often in the 20 to 30 degree range.

So, okay, it isn't 350 years of cricket, but the point remains. it is only in the past 20 or so years that any measurement at all has been put in place, and even then, the experimental method of determining whether something is legal or not still has a degree of error that, in partical physics, for example, you wouldn't consider as even useful (10%-20% is a massive margin for error!).

Essentially what this means is that when it was a question of onfield umpires simply going on visual perspective, far fewer people would bowl a delivery that could be interpreted visibly as a chuck. The consequence of a limit is that, you can throw the ball bowl with an elbow extension up to 15 degrees, which is visible, and if you do it to a greater extent (>15 degrees) on the pitch, but can replicate less than or equal to 15 degrees in the lab, you get away with it. 

So I am afraid your "Saying stuff like..." method of discussion misses the point. When the only measure is the human eye, the risk of bowling something that may transgress is significantly higher than where the definition is laid down as a set of rules which have a wide base as a result of the margin for error involved. Or more simply, you can push a clear set of rules right to the limit. Anyone for a mankad...? 
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mattcoll12491

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #245 on: June 04, 2014, 03:03:27 PM »

who needs to watch Game of Thrones, when we have this. gripping, intense, and equally violent !

But no nudity!!  :o
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mini998

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #246 on: June 04, 2014, 03:26:33 PM »

Quote
It would be nice, too, if England simply stopped talking about the spirit of cricket. It is not relevant when their batsmen decline to walk. It is not relevant when their batsmen, in fighting for a draw, change their gloves and ask for drinks in order to use up time. It is not relevant when their bowlers sledge or try to persuade the umpire to change a ball that is not swinging. And it is not relevant when they lure coaches from opposition teams weeks before they face them in a series.

All such issues are seen - right or wrong - as part and parcel of the professional game. So to talk of spirit only when they lose leaves them looking weak, graceless and hypocritical. Only by confronting their failings and not grasping for excuses will they start to improve.

George Dobell on yesterday's issue



read more
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html
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tim2000s

Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #247 on: June 04, 2014, 03:47:27 PM »


read more
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html

Dear all Sri Lanka fans....

Let's make it clear, the majority of cricketers that I know in England think that Buttler got what he deserved and that he was being a bit of a tool. While the press might talk of spirit of cricket, the reality is that no-one who plays thinks that this is a spirit if cricket issue, and the majority think that if you are going to invoke it, it's on Sri Lanka's side for warning him!
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mini998

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #248 on: June 04, 2014, 04:05:30 PM »

Didn't realise this until I just read it but I think this is incredibly poor.

Senanyke was the only SL player or coach who didn't come down and shake hands with England players and coaches after the game. Once England had gone back to the dressing room he came down and celebrated with is team.

I think this is really poor, you've just beaten a team in a series, you go shake their hand.

Unless you've been rushed from the ground to hospital there are no excuses.

He was probably afraid of getting complaints about his hand shake with his bent arm , Ha ha

Hand chucking LOL
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wayward_hayward

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #249 on: June 04, 2014, 04:18:58 PM »


read more
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html


I thought this struck the nail on the head with regards to England's ODI mentality. It's crying out for some freedom and flexibility from the top order.
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procricket

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #250 on: June 04, 2014, 04:27:34 PM »

My theory is this.

Tit For Tat

England call player for "allegedly chucking"

He retaliates plain and simple Get a opportunity and bingo.

Who cares lets get on with the greatest game on the planet.

I do not think either case is right but happens and we move on to the Nitty Test series

I hope Kumar And Mahela leave me with some lasting memories to remember them by great cricketers.

 
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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #251 on: June 04, 2014, 04:52:34 PM »

Obviously all umpires that called him for chucking were English, oh wait...
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Manormanic

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #252 on: June 04, 2014, 05:56:44 PM »

no video shows him chucking it.to be called a chuck it has to exceed 15 degrees.he has not been proven to be bowling with an arm bent over 15 degrees.therefore no video shows him chucking.

Jimmy Saville has not been proven to be a paedophile...doesn't mean people won't judge on the immense weight of evidence...go figure...
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skip1973

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #253 on: June 05, 2014, 12:18:25 AM »


calling me ignorant are you?how ignorant are you to the fact that the bowlers you accuse of chucking are perfectly permitted by the ICC to bowl in international matches?


people who are not from "my" country you say?well.no.basically any bowler who your batsman cant face has unfortunately had to go through this horror.first it was Murali,then Ajmal and now poor Senanayeka.some people on this forum went as far as questioning Lasith Maling's bowling action.why?because he won us games that England could have won.


it must be incredibly frustrating for your batsman to face local spinners who are at best net bowlers (bar a limited few) compared to subcontinental standards and then face real quality spinners,right?instead to accusing ICC approved bowlers,it might be a wise move to steal another few batting coaches from countries who are performing well at the moment and maybe negotiating an under-the-table deal with a subcontinental mystery spinner to come down to the UK and bowl day in day out to your batsman in the nets.might prove to be a good investment cos accusing opposition players is sure as hell not helping the sorry English team.
Unfortunately your argument fails because he has been reported, it's not a forum opinion. He will get tested and adjust his action slightly then fall back into the same habits again.
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LEACHY48

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Re: England v Sri Lanka series
« Reply #254 on: June 05, 2014, 10:53:32 PM »


calling me ignorant are you?how ignorant are you to the fact that the bowlers you accuse of chucking are perfectly permitted by the ICC to bowl in international matches?


people who are not from "my" country you say?well.no.basically any bowler who your batsman cant face has unfortunately had to go through this horror.first it was Murali,then Ajmal and now poor Senanayeka.some people on this forum went as far as questioning Lasith Maling's bowling action.why?because he won us games that England could have won.


it must be incredibly frustrating for your batsman to face local spinners who are at best net bowlers (bar a limited few) compared to subcontinental standards and then face real quality spinners,right?instead to accusing ICC approved bowlers,it might be a wise move to steal another few batting coaches from countries who are performing well at the moment and maybe negotiating an under-the-table deal with a subcontinental mystery spinner to come down to the UK and bowl day in day out to your batsman in the nets.might prove to be a good investment cos accusing opposition players is sure as hell not helping the sorry English team.


let me point out some FACTS for you, us "sorry Englishmen" couldn't play Warne or McGrath, or Praveen Kumar, we still struggle to play Steyn, and Johnson for example, how many of them have been reported for chucking? Here is a Factual answer for you: NONE! that's because their actions were ENTIRELY and WHOLLY LEGAL. HOWEVER, there is a reoccurring theme with the bowlers that have all been reported; namely: Murali, Ajmal and Senanayake, and that is that there is a LARGE VISIBLE degree of flexion at the elbow during the delivery swing. Therefore, it is ENTIRELY reasonable that they are reported and investigated. Your argument is not only invalid, but also childish. Let me draw a comparison for you; what you are saying is akin to this: someone is murdered in the street, you happen to witness it, you then complain about being interviewed as you believe there is a prejudicial element, entirely FALSE. Now, furthermore, there is, as aforementioned, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF VIDEO EVIDENCE OF CLEAR FLEXION OCCURRING AT THE ELBOW, therefore, regardless of your nationalistic piffle, he does, BY DEFINITION, throw the ball in his delivery. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS LEGAL IS ANOTHER QUESTION. However. It is an absolutely unquestionable fact that he does indeed CHUCK. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:18:58 PM by LEACHY48 »
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