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[petehosk]

Cook did have a point - if the missed stumping for Vijay on 45 (added a further 91 runs after that), Kholi dropped on 69 (added a further 166 runs) and Yadav dropped on 8 (added 96) had all been taken then that equals a massive 353 runs more than if the chances had of been taken! So Cook was kind of correct when he stated those 3 chances cost them ALOT!!!
BUT that must not detract from the other issues we have! England HAVE to find a front line spinner! I don't think we would ever find an Ashwin and certainly a Warne only ever comes along once in a lifetime! But take a Swann or Monty right now. Rashid has done ok in the nunmber of wickets taken - but he needs to learn to bowl consistently and apply pressure. The Indian batsmen seem to know that he will bowl at least one bad ball every over and sometimes more....so they just need to block and then take the bad balls to score! But surely there has to be a special spinner somewhere?
In other areas, I agree that Ali should not be batting in the top 5! But he is an excellent 7/8 and a part time spinner. If we had one genuine front line spinner, then I honestly believe that Root and Ali between them could do a decent job in most conditions and take the odd wicket (or 2 if you are Root!)
In most English conditions spinners are rarely needed and are only of any use in the 4th innings anyway. Therefore I believe that on most home grounds, we would manage handsomely with Root and Ali, as long as we had our best pace bowlers!
Evidently the ground where the next Test is spins! Therefore surely we need to look at bringing in Dawson or another spinner so that we have Rashid, Ali, Root and Dawson/Batty? And we can afford to really play Stokes, Ball and Anderson? Or even take a risk and just play 2 seamers?? I assume Stokes would be one because of his batting. Then either Anderson/Ball/Broad/Woakes as the other? We have nothing to lose now! We are likely to lose 4-0 anyway, so take a risk and maybe even play Rashid, Ali, Dawson, Root AND Batty if they are all around still?



 

[joeljonno]

I'm still not a fan of Rashid, too inconsistent, seems like he's soft in the head as well as soon as there's a bit of pressure on him (turning pitch, batsmen attacking) he turns to mush. You can say that he's a leggie, so he's going to be inconsistent but that's nonsense, just look at Yasir Shah, Adam Zampa, Davendra Bishoo, even Ish Sodhi! They can all at least land an over vaguely where they want. Time to get shot of him I'm afraid, cant see that Mason Crane would be any worse.

Rashid is still early in his international career.  Think he has got to be given chance to up his game.  No point sending him back to the CC to pick up wickets for fun against half the muppets in that league.  He needs to bowl against the best for an extended period of time, across a multitude on different tracks to prove whether he is good enough.  Here are some stats to back this up...

After 9 games..
Rashid - 37 wickets at 39.81 (s/r of 63.95)
Warne - 21 wickets at 37.38 (s/r of 75.00)

Ballance - ave 61.50 with 4 hundreds (and look at him now)

I think he should be first choice for the rest of this series, next summer and the next winter.  Then a real decision can be made as to whether he is good enough.

[Felix Tito]

Rashid is still early in his international career.  Think he has got to be given chance to up his game.  No point sending him back to the CC to pick up wickets for fun against half the muppets in that league.  He needs to bowl against the best for an extended period of time, across a multitude on different tracks to prove whether he is good enough.  Here are some stats to back this up...

After 9 games..
Rashid - 37 wickets at 39.81 (s/r of 63.95)
Warne - 21 wickets at 37.38 (s/r of 75.00)

Ballance - ave 61.50 with 4 hundreds (and look at him now)

I think he should be first choice for the rest of this series, next summer and the next winter.  Then a real decision can be made as to whether he is good enough.

Warne vs Rashid stats are irrelevant.

Warne wasn't bowling long hops and full tosses. He was murdered by Ravi Shastri on debut(whom was a sensational player of spin)

[roco]

plus im sure warne was a youngish lad learning his trade at the top level

Rashid has had 10+ years of county cricket behind him, yes maybe 3-4 being messed about by England but still a solid 6-7 years in county cricket

if you can't control it by 30 your prob never going to

we have to accept that Rashid will be hit and miss but when on will win games and when off will look a clubbie or get someone new and I can't think of many who could do either job we need

where is the king of spain when we need him

[uknsaunders]

Bring back Tredders!

To be fair he did a pretty decent job. Would of made life a lot tougher. But he's experienced and that's the issue. Most decent English spinners don't mature until they nearly reach their 30s,  swann,  edmonds,  emburey.  Panesar would / should of been at his peak now but the ECB should of paid more than a passing interest in his development. Tuffers was a freak in terms of ability at his age but he was mismanaged to hell in the 90s.

[csnew]

Cook did have a point - if the missed stumping for Vijay on 45 (added a further 91 runs after that), Kholi dropped on 69 (added a further 166 runs) and Yadav dropped on 8 (added 96) had all been taken then that equals a massive 353 runs more than if the chances had of been taken! So Cook was kind of correct when he stated those 3 chances cost them ALOT!!!

On the flip side, Jennings dropped on 0 in the first innings, Bairstow also dropped a few times and lots of plays and misses. Cook's used the excuse of not taking their chances but I dont buy it, they've probably evened themselves out

[Rob580]

Rashid is still early in his international career.  Think he has got to be given chance to up his game.  No point sending him back to the CC to pick up wickets for fun against half the muppets in that league.  He needs to bowl against the best for an extended period of time, across a multitude on different tracks to prove whether he is good enough.  Here are some stats to back this up...

After 9 games..
Rashid - 37 wickets at 39.81 (s/r of 63.95)
Warne - 21 wickets at 37.38 (s/r of 75.00)

Ballance - ave 61.50 with 4 hundreds (and look at him now)

I think he should be first choice for the rest of this series, next summer and the next winter.  Then a real decision can be made as to whether he is good enough.

Warnie played as the primary spinner in all conditions in those first 9 tests (and when he was a lot younger and inexperienced as a cricketer), whereas Rashid has played solely in helpful conditions, where he hasn't had to play the holding role and has had spin from ball 1 pretty much every time. I think if you're a 28 year old professional spinner, and you still don't have reasonable / any control then he's never going to get it, is he?

I've always thought of him as similar to Imran Tahir, in that he gets away with bowling some garbage in ODI's because the field is out. But won't ever have enough control to be a genuine threat in a Test match. I don't think that's an unfair comparison to make?

[uknsaunders]

Ultimately England's solution to spin bowling isn't Rashid or Ali. Rashid has gone OK in India but Asia isn't know as a leg spinners paradise,  even Warne struggled.  Finger spinners win games in asia and turning the ball away from the bat. Even Swann struggled to the right handers,  so Ali struggles are understandable. More control would help but England need to have a good think about how to beat teams in Asia and start getting the right people playing. Why not fly jake leach over from the UAE and throw him into a dead rubber,  what's to lose?

[six and out]

Until we find a spinner that can bowl consistently in the right areas at a lot quicker pace we won't get anywhere in the subcontinent. Ali and Rashid along with their being inconsistent have also bowled far too slowly on these wickets.

[tate035]

On the flip side, Jennings dropped on 0 in the first innings, Bairstow also dropped a few times and lots of plays and misses. Cook's used the excuse of not taking their chances but I dont buy it, they've probably evened themselves out

The maths still doesn't add up there my New Zealand friend. England gave more away than India did..
However the most important factor that Captain Cook missed was the fact the top 5 Indian batsman have very rarely given their wickets away in all 4 tests so far. There isn't a need to worry about dropped catches if your top 5 bat like they can do when winning 3/4 tosses!!
For me the rot started against Pakistan last summer. Under Strauss and Vaughan if England won the toss and batted.then order of play was bat the opposition out of the game in your 1st innings. Whether you bat time or make sure the top oder hit 450+ it doesn't matter.

[petehosk]

The maths still doesn't add up there my New Zealand friend. England gave more away than India did..
However the most important factor that Captain Cook missed was the fact the top 5 Indian batsman have very rarely given their wickets away in all 4 tests so far. There isn't a need to worry about dropped catches if your top 5 bat like they can do when winning 3/4 tosses!!
For me the rot started against Pakistan last summer. Under Strauss and Vaughan if England won the toss and batted.then order of play was bat the opposition out of the game in your 1st innings. Whether you bat time or make sure the top oder hit 450+ it doesn't matter.

Indeed you are correct! Pointless statement to make when England gave 353 runs aways. And all the play and misses made a difference? Surely playing and missing happens on bath batting sides!
I think the issues are:
- Top bats giving their wickets away (even Root)
- No front line spinners
- Ali batting too high
- confidence low in the team!

But I guess he couldn't say all that on TV 

[ppccopener]

Until we find a spinner that can bowl consistently in the right areas at a lot quicker pace we won't get anywhere in the subcontinent. Ali and Rashid along with their being inconsistent have also bowled far too slowly on these wickets.

excellent point, these pitches to me anyway seem some balls have turned, some have not. Surely the most dangerous ball to play is the one that does not spin when you think it will. The pace you bowl is key here.

[ppccopener]

Indeed you are correct! Pointless statement to make when England gave 353 runs aways. And all the play and misses made a difference? Surely playing and missing happens on bath batting sides!
I think the issues are:
- Top bats giving their wickets away (even Root)
- No front line spinners
- Ali batting too high
- confidence low in the team!

But I guess he couldn't say all that on TV 

top batsmen giving their wickets away is crucial....Ali does not have the mentality to bat top 5, but he's fine lower down.

At home England get away with it because if we get 300 or even 250, our bowlers are king. Away from home is flat or our medium pacers are nullified we need the batters to go big, including Root.

it's bitten us on the bum...and it was always going to. 

[springbok45]

Cook wasn't there so Root brought himself on.

Cook obviously no faith in him. Root is far from a front line bowler, but he got some good drift and turn in his small spell. He needs to be used more.



Root bowler 15-20 overs and batting 3 is more likely to work than moeen bowling 50 overs and then having to come in at

Doesn't Root have back issues, which is why he doesn't bowl much as he'd rather not cripple himself and reduce his batting.

[Felix Tito]

Sorry but if Moeen Ali, by general consensus, a top order batsman. If he's unable to bat in the top 5 he sod off back to county cricket. Moeen'a bowling had the beginners luck, but that's long since disappeared. He's neither good enough with bat or ball. Don't give me this tosh he averages 100 odd at #7.