England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2018, 01:14:08 PM »
Quote from: petehosk on January 09, 2018, 01:05:30 PM
I don't disagree with this, but I suspect 2 players would! Root and Stokes seem pretty sure they want to bat at 4 and 6!
If Root did move up to 3 and Stokes to 5, then it does seem to give more flexibility and resolves the number 3 batting issue we have.
But I would make one change (at least temporarily at least) to replace Broad with Curren/Overton or another bowler. Broad needs to get his head
in the right place and also needs to not become too complacent about his place in the team!! Being shown that he is NOT irreplaceable may make him determined and he may get his mojo back.

I think if the management are gonna grow the stones to drop Broad after 100+ tests and nearly 400 wickets then they can grow enough to tell Root and Stokes that they'll bat where the team needs them to bat :D
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Manormanic

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2018, 01:29:55 PM »
Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 09, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
I think if the management are gonna grow the stones to drop Broad after 100+ tests and nearly 400 wickets then they can grow enough to tell Root and Stokes that they'll bat where the team needs them to bat :D

I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex. 

Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves.  If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)
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ppccopener

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2018, 01:35:17 PM »
Quote from: Manormanic on January 09, 2018, 01:29:55 PM
I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex. 

Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves.  If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)

Root does not have to captain at all. Anderson can

Root at 3 makes sense and it’s got to be Bairstow at 5 if that means giving up the gloves fine

We are not exactly flush with batsmen
Malan can slot in at 4

I don’t see why Root has to be skipper? Why?
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
Quote from: Manormanic on January 09, 2018, 01:29:55 PM
I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex. 

Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves.  If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)

My reasoning for Malan at 4 not 3 was having him at 3 gives us 3 lefties in a row which I was trying to avoid.
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Manormanic

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2018, 01:47:03 PM »
Quote from: ppccopener on January 09, 2018, 01:35:17 PM
Root does not have to captain at all. Anderson can

Root at 3 makes sense and it’s got to be Bairstow at 5 if that means giving up the gloves fine

I don’t see why Root has to be skipper? Why?


Because he is the man selected by the powers that be.

It is that simple.  Whether he is the best man for the job or not is at this stage debateable - he has shown some flashes of creativity, and has handled a difficult tour with great dignity (which lets face it is more important to the ECB bigwigs).  Yes, it has had some effect on his batting, but in that regard one would simply be shifting the impact.

It certainly shouldn't be given to Anderson.  Eek out what is left in Jimmy's body, but don't make him skipper.  Its not a role that works for quick bowlers, and he is now very seperated from most of the squad in terms of of age and interests.

If not Root, it should be given to Bairstow - who has a good cricket brain, and is plegmatic enough that it would probably affect his performance less than anyones.
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HallamKeeper

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2018, 02:45:07 PM »
I know keeping will sap YJB's energy so the logic is to bat at 7 so you have a break for 5 wickets.

The counter argument would be that until we have a tail that can play well he will often be farming the strike or hitting out and I think that is a waste.

The other thing is that if he does manage to bat for long enough at 7 to score a 100, he will most likely be strapping his keeping pads on pretty quickly after batting. If England bat first he will sit around (hopefully) for most of a day then squeeze in 2 innings batting and 2 fielding in 4 days.

Quinton De Kock was batting low for SA and everyone thought he should be higher. Surely you want your best 6 batsmen in the top 6. Ali and Woakes should score more than most 7 & 8s in the world when on form.

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deanoknight

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2018, 03:08:11 PM »
Think it's a bit harsh to be dropped, he played a few decent knocks! Seems a bit silly dropping him and not Ali who was ropey all tour. Plus they picked him they need to stick with him can't keep changing all the time.
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edge

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2018, 03:12:14 PM »
Lots of suggestions for either playing 6 bowlers or a specialist batsman at 7, I'm confused by both to be honest!
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2018, 03:14:45 PM »
Quote from: edge on January 09, 2018, 03:12:14 PM
Lots of suggestions for either playing 6 bowlers or a specialist batsman at 7, I'm confused by both to be honest!

Mine, although having 6 "genuine" bowling options was more utilising Ali at 7 as an allround/part time bowling option
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edge

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2018, 03:25:43 PM »
Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 09, 2018, 03:14:45 PM
Mine, although having 6 "genuine" bowling options was more utilising Ali at 7 as an allround/part time bowling option
Why do we need 6 though? Someone's going to end up barely bowling, and poor Moeen at 7 will be too busy dealing with his nosebleed to score many runs. Would rather see a proper batsman playing higher up the order, a specialist no 7 bat/part time lobber isn't going to win you many test matches.
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petehosk

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2018, 03:28:09 PM »
Quote from: deanoknight on January 09, 2018, 03:08:11 PM
Think it's a bit harsh to be dropped, he played a few decent knocks! Seems a bit silly dropping him and not Ali who was ropey all tour. Plus they picked him they need to stick with him can't keep changing all the time.

Who played a few decent knocks fella? Dropping who? Trying to suss out what you are replying to?
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2018, 03:30:07 PM »
Quote from: edge on January 09, 2018, 03:25:43 PM
Why do we need 6 though? Someone's going to end up barely bowling, and poor Moeen at 7 will be too busy dealing with his nosebleed to score many runs. Would rather see a proper batsman playing higher up the order, a specialist no 7 bat/part time lobber isn't going to win you many test matches.

So would you drop Moeen altogether? I'm not sure that we do need 6, maybe I'm clinging on to Mo for sentimentality's sake.
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edge

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2018, 03:53:16 PM »
Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 09, 2018, 03:30:07 PM
So would you drop Moeen altogether? I'm not sure that we do need 6, maybe I'm clinging on to Mo for sentimentality's sake.
While Stokes is gone, yes. With Stokes in the team then having a mercurial luxury player works well, he's covered if he's not playing well and the team looks very strong if he's in form. Without Stokes, there's too much responsibility for an inconsistent player. Potentially he comes back in when Stokes is back, but you'd hope Leach/whoever would have nailed a place down by then.
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2018, 03:58:01 PM »
Quote from: edge on January 09, 2018, 03:53:16 PM
While Stokes is gone, yes. With Stokes in the team then having a mercurial luxury player works well, he's covered if he's not playing well and the team looks very strong if he's in form. Without Stokes, there's too much responsibility for an inconsistent player. Potentially he comes back in when Stokes is back, but you'd hope Leach/whoever would have nailed a place down by then.

To be fair my team had Stokes in ;)
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Red Ball Squad for New Zealand
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 03:58:29 PM »
Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 09, 2018, 12:29:46 PM
I'm normally one who shouts to leave people where they are batting order-wise but I think it might be time for Root to man up and go to 3 with a couple of others moving up too. This is obviously presuming Stokes' mam will let him out to play:

1: Cook
2: Stoneman
3: Root (C)
4: Malan
5: Stokes
6: Bairstow (+)
7: Moeen
8: Woakes
9: Broad
10: Crane
11: Anderson

4 Genuine seam options, two spin options and hopefully enough batting without ruffling too many feathers bringing loads of new players in.
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