Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #360 on: June 14, 2021, 02:33:27 PM »

Really, what the hell were England doing playing their 4th choice WK when the 2nd (arguably 1st) and 3rd choice were playing for their counties in T20 cricket? (The same players who are considered 'too important' to play championship cricket!)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 02:36:07 PM by Bats_Entertainment »
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ppccopener

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #361 on: June 14, 2021, 02:42:47 PM »

Bracey I think has been in and around the bubble for a year, it’s was too early for him you could see but I got confused when billings was called up as he isn’t the long form keeper at Kent.

I don’t fully understand why Butler and Woakes were not available but Boult played for them and he’s been in the IPL.
Butler playing as Foakes was injured may of given us an option to leave out a batsman as well and play the spinner.

I think England have got themselves in a bit of a tangle, we have not played the best test side for a while now(from the players we have)
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #362 on: June 14, 2021, 03:05:34 PM »

I'm wondering if being 'in and around the bubble' really makes you a better cricketer?
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SouthpawMark

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #363 on: June 14, 2021, 03:09:05 PM »

Bracey I think has been in and around the bubble for a year, it’s was too early for him you could see but I got confused when billings was called up as he isn’t the long form keeper at Kent.

I don’t fully understand why Butler and Woakes were not available but Boult played for them and he’s been in the IPL.
Butler playing as Foakes was injured may of given us an option to leave out a batsman as well and play the spinner.

I think England have got themselves in a bit of a tangle, we have not played the best test side for a while now(from the players we have)

Silverwood’s fault. He’s trying to keep the box-office one day players happy, at the expense of the test team. If they are fit, they should play. If they are fit and they don’t want to play, then that tells you where their loyalties lie. Silverwood’s ridiculous policy of rotation has put the test team in a mess that is going to take quite some time to extract itself from.
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ppccopener

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #364 on: June 14, 2021, 03:24:32 PM »

Silverwood’s fault. He’s trying to keep the box-office one day players happy, at the expense of the test team. If they are fit, they should play. If they are fit and they don’t want to play, then that tells you where their loyalties lie. Silverwood’s ridiculous policy of rotation has put the test team in a mess that is going to take quite some time to extract itself from.

I think we have learnt over the India away tour and this series just ended, rotation may well of been needed, but the only team that has actually been at a disadvantage is the test side.

I don’t think Root is a good captain or should be captain-but his hands have been tied over this it’s clear as day.
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AJ2014

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #365 on: June 14, 2021, 04:41:50 PM »

I think we have learnt over the India away tour and this series just ended, rotation may well of been needed, but the only team that has actually been at a disadvantage is the test side.

I don’t think Root is a good captain or should be captain-but his hands have been tied over this it’s clear as day.
What's the point of being captain, then? Would he be in the team if he wasn't captain?
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ppccopener

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #366 on: June 14, 2021, 04:48:15 PM »

What's the point of being captain, then? Would he be in the team if he wasn't captain?

What? Would Root be in the team if he wasn't captain? Is that what you're asking.

he is by an absolute street our best batsman.
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joeljonno

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #367 on: June 14, 2021, 04:50:44 PM »

I can understand a good rotation policy, but you have to have the players that are good enough to make it work.  We're lacking strength in depth in the batting, especially around the top of the order.  Burns is getting better and I can see him being a long term opener if he keeps on his upward trajectory.  Sibley and Crawley seem a bit lost at the moment, need to get back to playing to their strengths and why they were picked in the first place.

The seam bowling seems solid, if a little underwhelming this summer so far, but with a number rested, it gets better.  Then we need a couple of spinners, including a spinning all rounder if possible.

If we can strengthen at the top and a couple of extra all-rounders, we can start looking like a decent test team again.

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joeljonno

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #368 on: June 14, 2021, 04:53:11 PM »

What? Would Root be in the team if he wasn't captain? Is that what you're asking.

he is by an absolute street our best batsman.

And consistently in the top 5 test rankings for the past few years.
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AJ2014

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #369 on: June 14, 2021, 05:13:17 PM »

And consistently in the top 5 test rankings for the past few years.
I know that, this is why in my opinion he must have a say in his team selection.
Otherwise he'll remain a top batsman but called a losing captain!
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potzy248

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #370 on: June 14, 2021, 06:50:36 PM »

so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough

Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier

Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)

Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost

Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.


Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..

people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)


The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.

people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all...   realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..

I think you missed my point. Burns looks ok compared to Sibley. Both have similar issues so Burns looking to score seems like a plus to me otherwise you have two openers not looking to score and both getting out not doing their job. If Sibley's job is to blunt the attack, he's failed. "Protecting your middle order"? What middle order? That can't be a team plan if your team doesn't have the means to implement it. Gone are the days when the top order will grind down the bowlers only for the likes of Gilchrist and the like to run over helpless, tired bowlers. All your batsman need a good defence and attack. Well thats my opinion anyway.

I agree with your assessment of Pope. You can tell he's a good player and if he sorts his issues out well Id persevere with him.

I didn't say get T20 players in I said you have some amazing T20 players and so surely have some talented red ball cricketers (Given the amount of Pro players you have on the books)? I really don't know its a question I had for you English guys. I'm not saying pick Darren Stevens but are there some older guys that could do a job in the batting order holding it together and breaking up these young talented prospects?

I ENJOYED READING YOUR POST... ;)



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LEACHY48

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #371 on: June 14, 2021, 07:16:36 PM »

so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough

Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier

Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)

Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost

Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.


Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..

people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)


The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.

people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all...   realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..

Whilst I agree that short format talent does not necessarily correlate with red ball talent, I fundamentally disagree that the top order are there to “blunt the attack”.

A basic fundamental of batting is “setting up to score” because it makes you move with purpose, and it also means you put away the bad ball when it arrives.

Our lack of intent to score cost us this series ultimately, as we could have potentially chased the NZ score on day 5 at lords.

I also think our county cricket set up needs an overhall. Not enough batsman in our test side have their basic fundamentals right.

Devon Conway for example, does 3 things really well - his batting fundamentals, and he also averages 80 odd in test cricket.

Ultimately,

Sibley is not good enough, Crawley is not good enough, and pope is not good enough (yet).

Malan has a proven international record in all formats, is scoring runs for fun, and therefore should come in for now.

Clarke is plundering runs too - the same should apply.

Westley got dropped too soon and averages 45 this season in the CC.

Adam Lythe would also be a better option than sibley.

As much as it pains me to say it - runs should be the only currency that matter - and on that basis, even Gary balance should be in the picture.

There are plenty of options out there - but the ECBs policy of jobs for the boys is killing English cricket.

Ollie Robinson has to come back in as soon as humanly possible.

Broad and Anderson need to be split up, Anderson is England’s best ever, broad is incredible on his day. But...Ollie Robinson is clamouring to be given the new ball.

I’ve said it before, multiple times, and I’ll say it again...Alec Stewart needs the England gig.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 07:20:34 PM by LEACHY48 »
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ppccopener

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #372 on: June 14, 2021, 07:21:05 PM »

I think you missed my point. Burns looks ok compared to Sibley. Both have similar issues so Burns looking to score seems like a plus to me otherwise you have two openers not looking to score and both getting out not doing their job. If Sibley's job is to blunt the attack, he's failed. "Protecting your middle order"? What middle order? That can't be a team plan if your team doesn't have the means to implement it. Gone are the days when the top order will grind down the bowlers only for the likes of Gilchrist and the like to run over helpless, tired bowlers. All your batsman need a good defence and attack. Well thats my opinion anyway.

I agree with your assessment of Pope. You can tell he's a good player and if he sorts his issues out well Id persevere with him.

I didn't say get T20 players in I said you have some amazing T20 players and so surely have some talented red ball cricketers (Given the amount of Pro players you have on the books)? I really don't know its a question I had for you English guys. I'm not saying pick Darren Stevens but are there some older guys that could do a job in the batting order holding it together and breaking up these young talented prospects?

I ENJOYED READING YOUR POST... ;)





Denly did a job for us, split opinion on here  :) but we are now seeing it should of been medium term for him not short term.
Our our inexperienced batsmen won't make it thru the summer so England may well look to do as you suggest and break up the order with more experience.

That might be Malan with an eye who could also do that job in the winter. If Malan has some rough edges or has parts of his personality that don't appeal, there needs to be some give and take and work to fit in.

NZ have showed how to do the basics of test match batting which we need to follow. England have got things muddled and they need to be unmuddled and pretty quick.

We currently are dragging Root down to a more average level batting wise and he's the best we have.
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #373 on: June 14, 2021, 07:23:51 PM »

Malan has had one knock in the Championship this season. He scored 199 against a young and under-stength Sussex attack. Maybe that is scoring runs for fun?
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ppccopener

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Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches
« Reply #374 on: June 14, 2021, 07:37:38 PM »

Malan has had one knock in the Championship this season. He scored 199 against a young and under-stength Sussex attack. Maybe that is scoring runs for fun?

You're cupboard may be overflowing with high scoring CC batsmen but most of ours isn't.

He's consistently scored runs for Middlesex before moving to Yorkshire and has International experience,which counts for something.

He was only dropped last time because Ed Smith labelled him a back foot horses for courses player,which considering he's scored most of his runs in England for Middlesex was beyond stupid.
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