England v India series
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #750 on: September 07, 2021, 01:40:55 PM »

He's also a more naturally gritty player than Bairstow or Buttler so offers a point of difference compared to the likes of Root, Stokes and Pope

Ahh... you mean a bit of balance within a side rather than just one stroke maker after another.. who would have thought that having a BALANCED side was a good idea...

totally agree. Foakes may or may not avg 40-42.... He will however be slightly better with the gloves and offer potentially better value when at the other end to stroke making 4/5/6/8/9
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mo_town

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #751 on: September 07, 2021, 02:36:36 PM »

Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?

Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #752 on: September 07, 2021, 02:53:38 PM »

Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?

Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?

I think this is the problem except in the complete opposite of how you mean. Baylis did his best to merge to different formats that only the very best players can adapt to.

It didn’t work and was never going to. You really can’t power hit high class test match bowling unless you are exceptional.We need to persevere with the likes of Hameed to try to get us batting test match style not one day style.

To be fair to Butler in the last 18 months he has played some good controlled innings and tried to adapt.
Bairstow even has tried I think this series.

Some of our best test players are also our best one day players, but the spine of our batting has to be those more suited to long form.

And we don’t have many of those  :)
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Jeff Navarro

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #753 on: September 07, 2021, 03:49:10 PM »

I don’t really care if Buttler’s going to skip the Ashes. If he is the #1 keeper batsman then he plays at Old Trafford. Bairstow drops out of the side and he’s got no real argument otherwise - averages 21 in last 34 innings....
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #754 on: September 07, 2021, 04:16:26 PM »

I don’t really care if Buttler’s going to skip the Ashes. If he is the #1 keeper batsman then he plays at Old Trafford. Bairstow drops out of the side and he’s got no real argument otherwise - averages 21 in last 34 innings....

Yeah  :) another perspective would be he’s in the side as a 5/6 batsman, asked to keep and bat at 7, ok so far, then Butler returns so Bairstow is dumped as a keeper and also as a batsman.

I’m no Bairstow fan but that’s rough treatment.
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #755 on: September 07, 2021, 04:18:55 PM »

Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?

Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?

oh good god.. 'fearless cricket'.. lol... you realise that's what Bayliss tried and it TOTALLY FAILED.. Utterly and completely failed.  Bairstow, Buttler, Duckett, Moeen up the order, stokes up the order, root up the order .. hales was it even?? ROY!... I mean.. Jesus...

White Ball is a TOTALLY different game now to red ball. Simple as that.  Before any India jumps up and down over Rohit etc... Lets just remember how inconsistent this Indian batting line up is too shall we......
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Jeff Navarro

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #756 on: September 07, 2021, 04:49:03 PM »

Yeah  :) another perspective would be he’s in the side as a 5/6 batsman, asked to keep and bat at 7, ok so far, then Butler returns so Bairstow is dumped as a keeper and also as a batsman.

I’m no Bairstow fan but that’s rough treatment.
Bairstow turns 32 soon and as a pure batsman he averages 27 after 51 innings. Furthermore he averages 28 batting at 5 after 36 innings. Neither of these are small sample sizes.

Pope, whilst nothing overly special, is 23. So if it’s Bairstow vs Pope I’d go with the younger man. More so as Bairstow has received far too many opportunities at Test cricket and he’s not good enough.
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #757 on: September 07, 2021, 04:57:11 PM »

Bairstow turns 32 soon and as a pure batsman he averages 27 after 51 innings. Furthermore he averages 28 batting at 5 after 36 innings. Neither of these are small sample sizes.

Pope, whilst nothing overly special, is 23. So if it’s Bairstow vs Pope I’d go with the younger man. More so as Bairstow has received far too many opportunities at Test cricket and he’s not good enough.

The figures on there own don’t lie, it will be interesting to see which way they go.
One of Pope, Bairstow or Butler is being left out.
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potzy248

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #758 on: September 07, 2021, 08:43:58 PM »


The rest of the batting, just accept they can't (currently) bat like smith/williamson/kohli or root and accept their limitations. If Sibley/Burns/Hameed/crawley/Malan are the best we have in the top 3 then simply assign them a role.. that role is to tire the bowlers out.. leave the fast scoring to the middle order of stokes, Buttler, Barstow, pope, woakes.. that way, at least we play like a test side and start to play consistent cricket. rather than one game someone comes off, next game skittled.


"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy. I thought Hammed was fine, I actually didn't notice how many balls he took until it flashed in front of me. His defensive shots were followed by a look for a run, not safe for a run, say no and re-set. I feel the same watching Burns. I think if you give Hameed and Burns a good run you will see them grow in confidence and those defensive shots for none will become singles. Sibley was the opposite. No intent to score at all unless it was in his leg side zone. Horrible for your team as you never feel comfortable that he wont get out next ball and not ticking the scoreboard over.

Maybe your white ball heroes could follow McCullums approach and just go nuts no matter the situation. Stick to your strengths...

England have been in the box seat for all 3 tests at one stage or another and only managed to win one. Your bowlers have got you into those winning positions. Id be pretty upset as a bowler if My batsman then made a plan to bat for draw first and then if we are in a position to win go for it.

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SD

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #759 on: September 08, 2021, 12:26:19 AM »

Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?

Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?

I certainly think it is the case with Butler that there is no clear thinking about what his role in the side is.  There is no point picking one of the most destructive batsmen in the world for him to scratch around with no purpose.  The comparison with the freedom Pant has to play game changing innings is marked.

The approach on the final morning of the fifth test did sum up for me the concern over the lack of purpose to our batting.  If you can't find a way of putting pressure back onto the fielding side and their captain, then you build the pressure on yourself. 
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Buzz

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #760 on: September 08, 2021, 07:05:30 AM »

"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy.

Nonsense it is valuable now more than ever, especially during a test series with back to back matches.

In the second innings at the oval England bowled 150 overs. Only 26 or so were bowled by Mo and about 6 by Root.
This has been the pattern of Joe's captaincy, he flogs his best bowlers, check out Jimmy's workload. Jofra is broken.
At the start of the oval test, Jimmy and Robbo looked shot. They won't make it through Manchester.
It is absolutely relevant.
Fielding for that long also breaks batsmen.
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #761 on: September 08, 2021, 07:40:35 AM »

"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy. I thought Hammed was fine, I actually didn't notice how many balls he took until it flashed in front of me. His defensive shots were followed by a look for a run, not safe for a run, say no and re-set. I feel the same watching Burns. I think if you give Hameed and Burns a good run you will see them grow in confidence and those defensive shots for none will become singles. Sibley was the opposite. No intent to score at all unless it was in his leg side zone. Horrible for your team as you never feel comfortable that he wont get out next ball and not ticking the scoreboard over.

Maybe your white ball heroes could follow McCullums approach and just go nuts no matter the situation. Stick to your strengths...

England have been in the box seat for all 3 tests at one stage or another and only managed to win one. Your bowlers have got you into those winning positions. Id be pretty upset as a bowler if My batsman then made a plan to bat for draw first and then if we are in a position to win go for it.

yes, let's all bat like McCullum (who was great value btw, loved his 300) and watch the side be flashy one day and collapse the next 6 times before someone finally comes off again.. wooo.. that isn't test cricket, that's one day / 2020 / 100 cricket and thinking you're displaying.

There is an absolute need for tiring out bowlers in test cricket, both within one game but also across a series.. Tire bowlers out, they bowl worse, they (and batters/wk) make mistakes, drop catches, lose concentration, then when they come to bat.. they make errors and get out cheaply..   It isn't always about THAT singular innings or knock.. That is one of the beauties of test cricket compare to the random, pot luck one off nature of white ball.

Sure, go out there a nd bat for the win no matter what but just look.. simply look at this England side (I will say again, I don't really think ANY current test side is actually much cop btw).. who, after the top 4 (who aren't exactly great at it either but would be even worse going out there with all this intent etc!) is going to bat time?  lets please exclude the random one off freak knocks that ANY batsmen is capable off.. who CONSISTENTLY has demonstrated they are able to eat up 150 balls to help save a game??  Stokes? Bairstow? Pope? Buttler? Woakes? Moeen? Curran?   if you're going to ask your top 4 to 'go for the win' then you need to be bloody confident that your 'tail' can see it home if you should need to fight a rear guard action.. If (like England) your batting is dismal, you simply can't just recklessly go for the win as your middle order/tail is so prone to capitulation.

Losing like this is embarrassing for a test side.. It isn't just like white ball where, if people are honest.. who gives a crap from game to game who wins or loses. This is test cricket, each game means more and to keep winning or losing by huge margins isn't good cricket at all.. It just means we are relying on one or two players each game to 'come off'.. that's poor from the players, poor from the coaches, poor from the media, poor from the fans, poor from the ECB, poor from the counties and poor show from amateur cricket too.. all are utterly failing to produce players with both the technical skills but also the mental abilities required to adjust their game or even provide platforms for different skill sets

Anyway, as always it appears most on here just want to see white ball hitting in test cricket. Sad to read and the reason tests are being generally so one sided in their results.. win by an inns and x, win by 100+ runs etc etc.   That's fair enough but at least appreciate the skills both technical and mental as well as styles of players being lost to the game from pro level to amateur level and the effect that will have over time on the numbers following and playing this great game.

viewing figures are down
Participation is down

White ball has been eminent for a looooong while now and shows no sign of abating this.. From my limited experience of different counties , I would also venture that the quality of amateur cricket at least is poorer than ever.. Even with people playing their beloved win lose, limited overs, power plays, free hit hitting games.... if the quality is in decline, the numbers in decline.. Why do so many firmly believe the future is even shorter, even more dumbed down formats?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 07:42:56 AM by ProCricketer1982 »
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #762 on: September 08, 2021, 07:47:08 AM »

Very much agree with that Buzz, also with Mo he does get wickets but the run rate is pretty high, we are missing a slow bowler with control(Leach) who can tie an end down to give the seamers a breather.

Don’t know how we get Leach into the team but again, if we had batsman capable of getting us 300 most games he would be in.

As it is, just cannot see him playing. Unless we play 2 spinners next game and leave out a seamer which is unlikely
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #763 on: September 08, 2021, 07:49:05 AM »

What's more, cricket is in danger of alienating and losing its most passionate supporters. It often seems that you have more of a voice if you don't love cricket than if you do.
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #764 on: September 08, 2021, 08:55:39 AM »

What's more, cricket is in danger of alienating and losing its most passionate supporters. It often seems that you have more of a voice if you don't love cricket than if you do.

the sport is run by people whose only concern is money, not the actual sport
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