G1 butterfly
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AJ2014

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2021, 07:49:10 PM »


Personally, I don't see how Aldred's is more or less acceptable than this case. There's a £30 difference in the pricing in this case, but this seems to be a one off case for GB. Wrights state that 2% of butterfly make it into the G2 grade bracket. A lot more than 2% of the butterflies sold by Aldred make it into the Emperor grade. Is there anything wrong with that? Up to the consumer, there's no coercion into buying the bats itself. The premium you pay for an Aldred Butterfly over a butterfly made from someone newer to the industry I'd imagine from a consumer point of view is due to a perceived track record (Aldred has worked a lot with Butterfly, and appears to know what he's doing) and a wealth of experience (He's made bats for over a decade). If he's managed to convince folks his work is worth that kind of money, then so be it.

I've gotta keep more on the ball with threads I randomly start, I think I remember doing a poll on people's thoughts on Butterfly!
Agree with you.
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2021, 10:12:11 PM »


Personally, I don't see how Aldred's is more or less acceptable than this case. There's a £30 difference in the pricing in this case, but this seems to be a one off case for GB. Wrights state that 2% of butterfly make it into the G2 grade bracket. A lot more than 2% of the butterflies sold by Aldred make it into the Emperor grade. Is there anything wrong with that? Up to the consumer, there's no coercion into buying the bats itself. The premium you pay for an Aldred Butterfly over a butterfly made from someone newer to the industry I'd imagine from a consumer point of view is due to a perceived track record (Aldred has worked a lot with Butterfly, and appears to know what he's doing) and a wealth of experience (He's made bats for over a decade). If he's managed to convince folks his work is worth that kind of money, then so be it.

I've gotta keep more on the ball with threads I randomly start, I think I remember doing a poll on people's thoughts on Butterfly!

@Chad I highlight the word slightly more acceptable but I still don’t agree with it really. I was also unaware on the %of Butterfly willow that makes it into the G2 category and as you say that bat maker from what you see in his social media I would guess is 60%+ of sales in Butterfly willow.

The pricing of bats and kit full stop has gone mental. If I can make and sell a butterfly for £135 as a small bat maker that’s buys in small quantities than the pricing of some is a total joke. Now I know it’s not my livelihood etc but even still the realms now of £300 for a g2 from the bigger brands and £450 for G1 is just mind boggling to me. Let alone the sub grades etc that fall into it like G1+++, Pro etc because it happens to me a nice looking bat.
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Neon Cricket

Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2021, 06:59:47 AM »

In fairness @SOULMAN1012, whilst you can make a butterfly for ~£135 you'll have literally minimal costs involved with running your business so it isn't even close to being a fair comparison.

Believe me, the costs spiral once you hit a certain level. If I was to sell butterfly bats for £135, without selling huge quantities of them, I'd be losing money as a company.

The second you have to start factoring in rent/rates, VAT, accountants etc it isn't anywhere near as simple as buying a bat for X and selling it for £50 more.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 07:02:48 AM by Neon Cricket »
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Neon Cricket

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2021, 09:53:36 AM »

Also, just to add - that absolutely isn't a dig at any small brand/batmaker. As someone who started off with literally 32 pairs of gloves and something like 10 bats I've very much had to work up from nothing to where it's at now so I completely understand and can emphasise at both ends of the spectrum.

I always look back on the original CBF thread for Neon so as not to forget where it all started - I can confirm selling pittards gloves for £35 was never a sustainable idea lol :D (Link here if anyone's interested - http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=23132.msg370386#msg370386)
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SOULMAN1012

Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2021, 11:28:34 AM »

In fairness @SOULMAN1012, whilst you can make a butterfly for ~£135 you'll have literally minimal costs involved with running your business so it isn't even close to being a fair comparison.

Believe me, the costs spiral once you hit a certain level. If I was to sell butterfly bats for £135, without selling huge quantities of them, I'd be losing money as a company.

The second you have to start factoring in rent/rates, VAT, accountants etc it isn't anywhere near as simple as buying a bat for X and selling it for £50 more.

@Neon Cricket never thought it was a dig at all buddy and for someone that has to rent or lease a workshop or commercial unit I know the costs are high and that has to be included in the selling price of the product.

However when new brands come to the market and just charge the same prices as the big boys that’s just a Micky taking exercise to me. Don’t get me wrong I don’t like the fact that if you buy a NB for example you pay a larger price to cover the costs of sponsoring Root or GN to cover Babar plus the large costs involved with a business of those scales but for example a bat maker working from home in a outbuilding etc charging £500+ for “players” grade which is basically just a nice looking G1 is a mockery in my opinion. You can’t or shouldn’t be grading within a grade to make more just because it looks nice in my opinion, business or not. The club player is the one losing out now as prices are just mental and they can’t keep going this way as they must have doubled in the last 5 years across all kit ranges
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More Glue Than Wood

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2021, 05:19:00 PM »

would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?

as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?

or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)
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SOULMAN1012

Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2021, 06:33:55 PM »

would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?

as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?

or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)

No your not talking rubbish. I for example buy the cleft and then the price I set is purely down to me plus additional costs for stickers, grip etc. Also when you buy in bulk I get a little discount but this I imagine is pretty standard. So if I want to only charge £10 for example I could.

If you buy as a sticker brand I guess you have to pay the price for the whole bat so this includes a pre determined labour rate from the manufacture of your bats and then you have to make your profit on top of the profit already made by the manufacturer.

I imagine the discount to be quite vast for someone like GM the who no doubt order thousands a year. Others like GN and a Kippax that grow there own have those associated costs and the big one for big brands is players sponsorships although some have cut back I think but I image Jos is a very big endorsement figure which again has to be paid for
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Chad

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2021, 06:42:22 PM »

would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?

as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?

or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)


GB willow has their own in house batmaker, and are predominantly English Willow suppliers. Their pricing is actually very competitive IMO, just the grading of this one piece seems to be up for debate. £145 for G3 up to £320 for G1 is very good pricing IMO.

Most likely Chase has to buy in a fair bit of willow, so the lower grades/butterflies they'll make up and sell for very little profit most likely. Lots of love for the R1 grade, one of the best value for money English made bats you can buy. It's good for the sport itself, as it means folks with a tighter budget can access a well priced bat without compromising on manufacturing quality.

Thing is, even if you're making from the raw materials, you need to spend a large amount on purchasing a fairly hefty chunk of it for good rates, and then the time investment to making the end product. That's a lot of money to be invested in the materials. You also have a lot to be invested into the actual manufacturing equipment and maintenance as well. It's not an easy industry to get into from the looks of things. For start ups, you'll get a good beginning as you'll have teammates and friends etc to buy from you, but after that, it's very tough I'd imagine.

In terms of sticker brands, it's a bit of a funny one. Some of them start off with 1 manufacturer and then switch for various reasons. (Better product, cheaper product, manufacturer relationship turned sour, etc etc.) In terms of their costs, they'll get the bats from the manufacturer for cheaper than the manufacturer sells their bats for, and then add on their own cut on top of that to make a profit. (Nothing wrong with making profit, we all need to make a living somehow) The costs associated are different, the space they need and also the equipment they require. Thing is, many manufacturers will need to make bats for these sticker brands, as their own brands don't sell enough for them to be busy all year round...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 06:51:57 PM by Chad »
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More Glue Than Wood

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2021, 06:47:43 PM »

thanks @SOULMAN1012 - a really helpful answer!
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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2021, 06:49:58 PM »

thanks @Chad
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LEACHY48

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2021, 08:36:55 PM »

thanks @SOULMAN1012 - a really helpful answer!

As someone that makes from the raw cleft, I can produce cheaper bats than if I made from part mades, and considerably cheaper than if I imported before you account for labour.

I get a discount if I buy in bulk, but the raw materials for making a bat simply aren’t that expensive. What is very expensive is the machinery (our handle saws cost the best part of 5K our press after shipping was 4k, Spindle moulder, table plane sanding machinery, bandsaw etc etc.) space, electric, labour etc.

The reason most brands charge the prices they do is because they can.

Neon cricket was right in so far as once you factor in rates, vat, space, utilities etc you do need to increase your prices, but over a certain level it is just because consumers buy it.

There is a huge margin in cricket bats if you just work off the raw materials
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More Glue Than Wood

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2021, 06:50:30 AM »

thanks @LEACHY48 - appreciated - never thought that the equipment/machinery could cost so much
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AJ2014

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2021, 07:07:39 AM »

For me it's all about, something I really want and have money, I'll buy it! Most on here have seen heavy butterfly marks or bars on them.
The ones we're talking about, have a hint of butterfly stain. are actually made to top specs! From to toe! For them even £350 is a reasonable price! Because they are as good any other grade top grade bats!
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Jimbo

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2021, 07:54:46 AM »

The ones we're talking about, have a hint of butterfly stain. are actually made to top specs! From to toe! For them even £350 is a reasonable price! Because they are as good any other grade top grade bats!

The bat that inspired this thread has 36mm edges, a 30mm toe and a 60mm spine. Respectable for sure but certainly not "top specs".
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AJ2014

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Re: G1 butterfly
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2021, 08:18:27 AM »

The bat that inspired this thread has 36mm edges, a 30mm toe and a 60mm spine. Respectable for sure but certainly not "top specs".
I was referring to the one I mentioned I've seen using someone, not the one on here.
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