Topic: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that? (Read 10129 times)

jonny77 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2022, 08:01:22 AM »

Quote from: edge on August 31, 2022, 06:19:10 AM

All else being equal, a bigger bat will hit the ball further. That said, it's very unlikely you'll ever be choosing between two otherwise identical bats that are notably different in size, so it's a bit of a moot point anyway.

I think you can't blame people buying remotely too much for wanting to spec up their bat precisely, as it's their best way of trying to get what they want (or what they think they want). That said, someone who won't buy a bat because it's got 38mm edges not 40mm is being a bit daft.

A bigger bat than one which is smaller in volume but at the same weight. Or a bigger (as in heavier) bat?

I agree with your point on speccing a bat to some extent. But you get some ridiculous requests and it goes back to my point of will it really make a difference? People will specify 24mm toe, 40mm edge, 15mm shoulder, 67mm spine without any mention of pick up, profile, feel etc. Like just having these specs will give them an amazing bat.

I agree on the couple of mm. Kind of my thinking and the more this is normalised, for me the more we'll see narrowing, drying of willow, lightweight grips, lightweight/poor handles etc as people just chase specs. However, they often don't realise to get these specs some or all of the above come into play. Which as i mentioned, kind of makes the specs a little redundant to some extent imo. It's not everyone, but I do get a lot of it.

However, I'm guilty of feeding this to some extent i suppose. As I'll post pictures of bats with the gauge etc on socials. However, that's generally so i don't have to answer a raft of questions individually about edge size etc 😆

edge · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2022, 08:29:30 AM »

Quote from: jonny77 on August 31, 2022, 08:01:22 AM

A bigger bat than one which is smaller in volume but at the same weight. Or a bigger (as in heavier) bat?

Bigger as in size - a deeper bat means more resistant to bending, ie stiffer = more energy into the ball.

I think people chase specs at least because they're not subjective, unlike pickup or even profile. Look at Aldred, who for a while effectively sold bats by pickup rather than scale weight - he had a fair few unhappy customers. Would they have been as unhappy if they'd got the scale weight they asked for but it picked up differently? Unlikely.

Anecdotally I think the trend of opinion with the average clubbie has moved away from wanting big light bats at all costs. In my view Kookaburra early 2010s drove the trend towards super concaved, very dry bats with tiny light handles and often narrow widths, which were very popular until everyone realised they were crap and broke a lot. These days when I chat to teammates/oppo everyone seems to just want a nice handle and a full profile, perhaps partly due to bat shapes converging to some extent.

Alvaro · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2022, 08:40:03 AM »

A knocked in and seasoned bat makes all the difference, regardless of spec

mo_town · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2022, 10:53:00 AM »

Surely the thickness of edges matter. If it didnt, we would see atleast a few international cricketers using bats with small edges in test cricket atleast. Even the most traditional and orthodox of players use bats with big edges.

jonny77 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2022, 11:16:20 AM »

Quote from: mo_town on August 31, 2022, 10:53:00 AM

Surely the thickness of edges matter. If it didnt, we would see atleast a few international cricketers using bats with small edges in test cricket atleast. Even the most traditional and orthodox of players use bats with big edges.

Define big? Not all use 40mm edge bats tbh and in fairness, the bigger companies don't make small edge bats nowadays anyway, as they don't sell as well.

Also, players were hitting big sixes in the 60s and 70s with old style bats still. While also playing on probably worse decks, with bigger boundaries, after 8 pints the night before and with balls which weren't changed as often.

The game has changed, as have bats but I'm more inclined to think the players are stronger now and practice the short format stuff a lot more. So are more consistent in their hitting. I haven't seen much difference at league level tbh.

Would love to see a proper study undertaken on this to see some actual evidence one way or the other. I'd imagine it's almost impossible to quantify tho due to the amount of variables involved.

Chad · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2022, 11:20:58 AM »

Quote from: mo_town on August 31, 2022, 10:53:00 AM

Surely the thickness of edges matter. If it didnt, we would see atleast a few international cricketers using bats with small edges in test cricket atleast. Even the most traditional and orthodox of players use bats with big edges.

I think it's more with how batmaking has changed over the last decade or 2, as well as batting in general. We've moved to flatter faces, more aggressive strokeplay, etc etc. Flatter faces with thinner edges don't really mix well, you'd get too much twist off-centre as there's not enough wood, while with a rounded face you wouldn't get as much twist as it was more deflective. We pack more wood in the hitting zone but reduce wood in the vulnerable areas and handles. Ends up creating more problems with splice/shoulder damage and edge damage. To top it off, we dry it out more. If you're a pro, and you get your bats for free, that's all fine. Not many batmakers will go out their way to make small edged bats as they don't really sell - people don't really like small edges.

Back when Vitas Cricket was around, they had this concaved to hell B&S in their net, as well as a beautiful Flare OLE which picked up like a feather. Both played in, and felt absolutely incredible in terms of response and usage. Both not high volume profiles, but well made bats and well run in.

I think Viv Richards, although admittedly a bit of a freak of a cricketer, shows that the size of edge doesn't really matter.

mo_town · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2022, 11:39:54 AM »

Quote from: jonny77 on August 31, 2022, 11:16:20 AM

Define big? Not all use 40mm edge bats tbh and in fairness, the bigger companies don't make small edge bats nowadays anyway, as they don't sell as well.

Also, players were hitting big sixes in the 60s and 70s with old style bats still. While also playing on probably worse decks, with bigger boundaries, after 8 pints the night before and with balls which weren't changed as often.

The game has changed, as have bats but I'm more inclined to think the players are stronger now and practice the short format stuff a lot more. So are more consistent in their hitting. I haven't seen much difference at league level tbh.

Would love to see a proper study undertaken on this to see some actual evidence one way or the other. I'd imagine it's almost impossible to quantify tho due to the amount of variables involved.

I do agree regarding the bats of old being absolute belters despite being thin. I remember one match where the opposition had a guy who walked in with a bat that looked like a twig edgewise (in comparison to the bats today) and hit a couple of massive sixes. When I held the bat I realised that it was a 3 pounder! My point is, why do international players not use something like that today? Is it because the brands/companies need to advertise their goods and make the bigger bats to attract buyers? Why hasnt any main stream bat company not come up with the traditional design?

ch1p · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2022, 11:42:39 AM »

Hmmm purely a confidence and aesthetic thing for me.

Does my 42mm edge, 25mm toe and 20mm shoulder bat ping just as well as my 36mm edge, 21mm toe and 18mm shoulder bat? Yeah I think it does, or the difference in feel anyway is minimal either way. Do I always pick the bigger bat to walk out to the middle with? Yeah I do, it gives me a bit more in the mind and that's all I need.

I'm also a sucker for a nice even yet big shape. The GM Zona that came out years ago now makes me feel ill, along with what some people are doing now to get the big edge size, making them huge and just carving out from above the middle to the shoulder. A nice flowing line from shoulder to toe is my preference anyway. I wouldn't say I hunt specs, but I do hunt a "nice" (in my eyes) profile, as an example I got a small edged warner from B3 a while back (35mm edge, 70mm ish spine), initially bought on the wow factor of the specs but I actually didn't like the look of the profile so ended up shifting it on, in theory the higher middle would actually be my preference. lesson learned so last week when I was offered a 30mm shoulder, 35mm edge and big looking toe, but the spine was pretty much flat, again not my preference, so I passed. Would that have pleased the spec hunters or are they just very specific in what they want?

In your case Jonny, what's the option as a maker? I can imagine it is a bit frustrating as it's almost trying to teach people about wood properties during a sale? Or do you offer them alternatives? As in yes I can make your bat to those specs but a) it might take months for the right piece of wood to come through and educate or b) yeah I can do those but it'll have to weigh X or I can make it thinner etc?

I agree the gauge coming in has made things a bit harder, it's given people a max to aim for in what they want because in life (the max is the best...)

jonny77 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2022, 11:59:20 AM »

Quote from: mo_town on August 31, 2022, 11:39:54 AM

I do agree regarding the bats of old being absolute belters despite being thin. I remember one match where the opposition had a guy who walked in with a bat that looked like a twig edgewise (in comparison to the bats today) and hit a couple of massive sixes. When I held the bat I realised that it was a 3 pounder! My point is, why do international players not use something like that today? Is it because the brands/companies need to advertise their goods and make the bigger bats to attract buyers? Why hasnt any main stream bat company not come up with the traditional design?

Trends change and batmakers are businesses, who ultimately need to sell bats. Although it's been said most clubbies don't really care, give them a choice between a 15mm edge and 38mm edge bat and I'd guess 99 percent would go with the latter, as it's just what we're now used to.

jonny77 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2022, 12:11:34 PM »

Quote from: ch1p on August 31, 2022, 11:42:39 AM

Hmmm purely a confidence and aesthetic thing for me.

Does my 42mm edge, 25mm toe and 20mm shoulder bat ping just as well as my 36mm edge, 21mm toe and 18mm shoulder bat? Yeah I think it does, or the difference in feel anyway is minimal either way. Do I always pick the bigger bat to walk out to the middle with? Yeah I do, it gives me a bit more in the mind and that's all I need.

I'm also a sucker for a nice even yet big shape. The GM Zona that came out years ago now makes me feel ill, along with what some people are doing now to get the big edge size, making them huge and just carving out from above the middle to the shoulder. A nice flowing line from shoulder to toe is my preference anyway. I wouldn't say I hunt specs, but I do hunt a "nice" (in my eyes) profile, as an example I got a small edged warner from B3 a while back (35mm edge, 70mm ish spine), initially bought on the wow factor of the specs but I actually didn't like the look of the profile so ended up shifting it on, in theory the higher middle would actually be my preference. lesson learned so last week when I was offered a 30mm shoulder, 35mm edge and big looking toe, but the spine was pretty much flat, again not my preference, so I passed. Would that have pleased the spec hunters or are they just very specific in what they want?

In your case Jonny, what's the option as a maker? I can imagine it is a bit frustrating as it's almost trying to teach people about wood properties during a sale? Or do you offer them alternatives? As in yes I can make your bat to those specs but a) it might take months for the right piece of wood to come through and educate or b) yeah I can do those but it'll have to weigh X or I can make it thinner etc?

I agree the gauge coming in has made things a bit harder, it's given people a max to aim for in what they want because in life (the max is the best...)

I will always try and give the customer what they want, but they're is only so much light willow. I won't compromise how (in my opinion) a bat feels by just hitting specs and compromising the balance or potential longevity, by narrowing, using overly skinny, cheap handles etc.

If i don't have a cleft which will make the customers requirements, i tell them what they could achieve or that they'll have to wait for the right cleft. If someone comes in and says i want a gauge filler with no concaving at 2lbs 8oz, my first question is 'Why do you feel that's important?'. It's generally answered with 'cos the ball will go further'. In my humble opinion it's not the case, but I always try to accommodate requests where possible. If i can't, I'll discuss with them what the options are and if they can compromise. Whilst guaranteeing them a great bat at the ends of the process regardless. 5mm more on the edge ain't turning anyone into Joss Buttler! 😂

Sometimes, you just have to accept you can't provide what they want and let them keep searching though. Which is fine too. The gauge is seen by many as the standard, rather than the max.

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2022, 03:08:04 PM »

Has anything changed since the gauge was introduced? Are less runs being scored?

Chad · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2022, 03:45:20 PM »

Quote from: Bats_Entertainment on August 31, 2022, 03:08:04 PM

Has anything changed since the gauge was introduced? Are less runs being scored?

Smaller batmakers are getting more headaches. 😂

I swear pre-gauge, the only bats that were really big were those novel ones like the Warner, the 50+, etc. Most of the others were legal, and if not, were normally heavier than most would use.

Depends how you look at stats I guess. Here's a random one plucked out

Number of 400+ scores in ODI

2014 - 2016 - 8
2018 - 2022 - 3

And yes, you had the pandemic where no cricket was played.

But you had the period of 2005 - 2008, where 6 400+ scores were recorded. Bats weren't crazy big back then from what I remember.

brokenbat · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2022, 05:03:33 PM »

It is staggering how most people don�t seem to care about width. Big edges if the bat is narrow are meaningless. For any given weight (which should be the most important spec), I would prioritize width, then spine height, and then edges.

Kai · « **Reply #28 on:** August 31, 2022, 07:00:39 PM »

I don't see how two bats that weigh 2.8 and pressed exactly the same, just one a low density cleft and another a higher density so smaller edges would have any difference in performance. I feel weight is the key factor and bat speed in how far a ball goes.

jonny77 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 31, 2022, 08:37:14 PM »

A few interesting articles here -

https://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1292892/have-sweet-spots-on-bats-really-got-bigger

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/05/cricket-bat-size-debate-russell-jackson

Author Topic: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that? (Read 10129 times)

jonny77

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

edge

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

Alvaro

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

mo_town

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

jonny77

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

Chad

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

mo_town

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

ch1p

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

jonny77

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

jonny77

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

Bats_Entertainment

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

Chad

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

brokenbat

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

Kai

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?

jonny77

Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?