A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
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InternalTraining

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2022, 08:30:59 PM »

^ tut tut. Considering the sad state of affairs, it is not surprising.
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Chad

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2022, 08:33:32 PM »

Wonder no more, they don’t.


😂😂


^ Ok. So, a low-density, larger (than normal volume) cleft is better for a lighter bat.

I wonder if bat makers have a formula to compare rebound from  a low-density cleft/bat of X weight v/s normal-density cleft/bat of Y (> X) weight. Example: Low-density bat of 2lb-8oz ping/rebound = normal-density bat of 2lb-11oz.


Doesn't quite work like that as it's a natural product, which has to be manufactured in a cost effective and time efficient manner. You can't possibly know the cell structure of a bat throughout the blade, you'll have some general findings that batmakers will have with certain grain structures, colours etc, but they won't hit the nail on the head all the time. It's an art and a science. Density is not a critical factor in a bats playability from what I've found. Critical in what shape and size a batmaker can make at a set weight
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Kulli

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2022, 08:36:26 PM »

^ tut tut. Considering the sad state of affairs, it is not surprising.
The sad state of which affairs?
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jonny77

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2022, 08:40:25 PM »

The sad state of which affairs?

Yeah I'll second that. Confused me for sure! 😂
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InternalTraining

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2022, 09:15:51 PM »

Doesn't quite work like that as it's a natural product, which has to be manufactured in a cost effective and time efficient manner.

That's why some bat makers use CNC machines. Keeley uses a CNC machine. At least one other bat maker used a CNC machine with low-density clefts. I never heard them complaining about cost and efficiency issues.
 
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You can't possibly know the cell structure of a bat throughout the blade, you'll have some general findings that batmakers will have with certain grain structures, colours etc, but they won't hit the nail on the head all the time. It's an art and a science. Density is not a critical factor in a bats playability from what I've found. Critical in what shape and size a batmaker can make at a set weight

So, low-density clefts were basically a marketing ploy? I have seen bats weighing 2lb-5oz to 2lb-10oz made from low-density clefts - they were lighter but looked bigger than normal bats that weight.  A few hits in the nets and they felt better too.









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jonny77

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2022, 09:29:07 PM »

That's why some bat makers use CNC machines. Keeley uses a CNC machine. At least one other bat maker used a CNC machine with low-density clefts. I never heard them complaining about cost and efficiency issues.
 
So, low-density clefts were basically a marketing ploy? I have seen bats weighing 2lb-5oz to 2lb-10oz made from low-density clefts - they were lighter but looked bigger than normal bats that weight.  A few hits in the nets and they felt better too.

How do you know they were low density?
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Thamesvalley

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2022, 09:43:33 PM »

Can only guesstimate a cleft has to start at a certain low weight to be considered low density and finish at a low weight fully dressed ?
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Chad

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2022, 09:56:54 PM »

That's why some bat makers use CNC machines. Keeley uses a CNC machine. At least one other bat maker used a CNC machine with low-density clefts. I never heard them complaining about cost and efficiency issues.


What on earth are you involving CNC machines in the discussion for now? It's to save time, help with consistency and ensure that a batmaker can make on a larger scale. It costs them more in terms of money to purchase, run and upkeep, but the larger volume they can make justifies the costs. So yes, that kind of supports my argument in that it is cost effective/time efficient if you make and sell lots, as it saves you so much time / manpower.

^ Ok. So, a low-density, larger (than normal volume) cleft is better for a lighter bat.


I wonder if bat makers have a formula to compare rebound from  a low-density cleft/bat of X weight v/s normal-density cleft/bat of Y (> X) weight. Example: Low-density bat of 2lb-8oz ping/rebound = normal-density bat of 2lb-11oz.


So they've gotta somehow come up with some sort of way to measure the response of a cricket bat - test this across a certain weight they manufacture at a set density, average that over say 100 bats, repeat for all their profiles, with different handle densities to consider as well.


The question is - do you want to pay more for your bats than they currently cost? Cause if someone were to do this, it would cost time and money for the equipment to measure this. How the rebound is calculated by machine or tapping up isn't an accurate representation of how it will play, as you've alluded to before yourself.


From what I've seen, a mallet test, a ball test, and they'll know if it's a good one, or if they need more prep/press.





So, low-density clefts were basically a marketing ploy? I have seen bats weighing 2lb-5oz to 2lb-10oz made from low-density clefts - they were lighter but looked bigger than normal bats that weight.  A few hits in the nets and they felt better too.






And to a pretty large extent - yes. Willow trees haven't magically decided to grow lighter for your needs for a larger volume bat. It's the same material we've used for over a hundred years. We've been using low density clefts for bats in the past and not charged extra because of it. The new 'Players Profile' bats are marketed as these large volume bats at a lighter weight.


Do the materials cost any more than a standard top grade bat? No - perhaps even less in some cases as they don't necessarily have to look as pretty. Can they make more profit from it? Absolutely.
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InternalTraining

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2022, 10:20:32 PM »


What on earth are you involving CNC machines in the discussion for now?

Because you  brought up "cost effective and time efficient manner"...

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It's to save time, help with consistency and ensure that a batmaker can make on a larger scale. It costs them more in terms of money to purchase, run and upkeep, but the larger volume they can make justifies the costs. So yes, that kind of supports my argument in that it is cost effective/time efficient if you make and sell lots, as it saves you so much time / manpower.


HAHAHAHAH. Right. Actually, that was my argument -  you initially dismissed the comparison of "low-density" cleft usage on the ground of "cost effective and time efficient manner."
Glad to see you came around to my argument. :D

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So they've gotta somehow come up with some sort of way to measure the response of a cricket bat - test this across a certain weight they manufacture at a set density, average that over say 100 bats, repeat for all their profiles, with different handle densities to consider as well.
The question is - do you want to pay more for your bats than they currently cost? Cause if someone were to do this, it would cost time and money for the equipment to measure this. How the rebound is calculated by machine or tapping up isn't an accurate representation of how it will play, as you've alluded to before yourself.

Based on my discussions, what I understand is that Laver does have a grading process - clefts are subjected to some tests where rebound is measured and has some proprietary formula for cleft comparison.  Your argument doesn't hold water since bats prices are already factoring those (existing such as Laver) processes.

Let's say that bat makers do as you propose, then I will happily pay a higher price if bat performance was guaranteed, bat had standardized specs, and I didn't have to buy 5 other bats because the bat I bought sucked or took too long to open up.

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And to a pretty large extent - yes.


So, low-density clefts were nothing but a marketing ploy and they don't add anything to a bat's performance. Thanks for acknowledging this. Many of us were duped by snake oil salesmen.

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Do the materials cost any more than a standard top grade bat? No - perhaps even less in some cases as they don't necessarily have to look as pretty. Can they make more profit from it? Absolutely.


Fair comment. Nobody went broke fooling bat-performance-hungry club cricketers.

Bottom line: What you have written is really a bunch of excuses for lacking proper standards of performance for cricket bats! "Natural product". "You want to pay more".

Golfers used wooden clubs once. Nobody complains about "natural product" today. Same with tennis. Their equipment performs from day 1 and their usual challenge is finding more (weekend) time to use it. Poor clubbies futz around with their bats and the proposed solution: "buy another one"! C'mon.
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Kulli

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2022, 10:35:14 PM »

Is there a full moon?
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jonny77

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2022, 10:43:51 PM »

How do you know they were low density?

Any answer to this one?

In reply to the above. Batmakers are governed by very strict rules in what they can make bats from and how they can make them. Materials, size etc. Golf equipment is machined and engineered from various materials, none of which are natural. So far more scope for innovation and new products. However, they still don't gaurantee performance. I've played off 5, so a fairly decent standard and used a whole host of clubs I've not been happy with, not got on with or not had the increased yardage off the tee, or less putts per round etc as promised by the manufacturer. Is this their fault or mine? I certainly wasn't blaming them, as it was probably user error!

I'm sure if any customer felt they had received a plank from any reputable batmaker, then that batmaker would gladly work with the customer to offer a solution. So the option isn't just buy another imo.
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Chompy9760

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2022, 11:52:57 PM »

How do you know they were low density?
I'm hardly a batmaker, but I did order 6 partmades to have a go.  I knew the weights of each one, but as they were all slightly different shapes and lengths (some were LB /SH) volume was difficult to calculate.
My solution was to fill a length of 150mm pvc pipe with water, put the bat in a garbage bag, submerge it to the same point on the handle, remove the bat, measure the depth of water displaced, calculate the volume displaced = volume of the partmade.

Weight / Volume = density.  The density of the 6 partmades varied quite a bit, and for me knowing that info helped me match the partmade with the shape it was best suited for.  I'm sure a real batmaker has a pretty good idea of this without measuring volume, but the geek in me needed it in scientific measurements.  Guess that means I'm a specs man :D 

edit - i'm probably not the person you were directing the question to, but just adding to the discussion!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:59:45 PM by Chompy9760 »
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Kulli

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2022, 05:21:20 AM »

Did you take the weights of the handles into consideration?
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Chompy9760

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2022, 11:05:07 AM »

No.  As it was impossible to separate cleft from handle, I had to assume all handles had the same volume and weight, and that the majority of variation in density I was measuring could be attributed to the willow.  So not perfect, but still gave me a fair comparison of what I was looking for.

Interesting that the one with the lowest density was the first (and only) one to delaminate.  It did also get the most use, but even so I thought it had a very short lifespan.
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Chad

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Re: A topic to polarise opinion.....'Specs' are they all that?
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2022, 06:30:49 PM »

Because you  brought up "cost effective and time efficient manner"...
 

HAHAHAHAH. Right. Actually, that was my argument -  you initially dismissed the comparison of "low-density" cleft usage on the ground of "cost effective and time efficient manner."
Glad to see you came around to my argument. :D



I think I was referring to the additional layer of testing. This would require someone to accurately repeat the testing using a machine of some sort. Log all entries of all bats made alongside the clefts 'density' (which isn't a uniform characteristic across the cleft at all - because it's a natural product which is non-uniform across then cleft which is subject to knots, honey fungus, different porosity across the cleft etc etc) then you'd somehow maybe be able to compare initial rebound? But how would this do anything other than add to the time and costs it takes to manufacture a cricket bat for a company?

My dismissal was based on having to spend money and effort to develop the technology/methodology, the additional time in the manufacturing process as you're introducing yet another step. To be honest, it probably wouldn't help to sell more bats - they'd have to charge more to invest in the testing, and we all know bats change over time, and at quite different rates.


This isn't the same as something that can be repeatably manufactured like table tennis rubbers, which can vary ever so slightly between batches, but all in all the characteristics will remain quite consistent due to it being a more uniform components due to some of it being synthetic.


Based on my discussions, what I understand is that Laver does have a grading process - clefts are subjected to some tests where rebound is measured and has some proprietary formula for cleft comparison.  Your argument doesn't hold water since bats prices are already factoring those (existing such as Laver) processes.

Let's say that bat makers do as you propose, then I will happily pay a higher price if bat performance was guaranteed, bat had standardized specs, and I didn't have to buy 5 other bats because the bat I bought sucked or took too long to open up.


That's his process - has he mentioned the kind of machinery and formulas that he uses to deduce exactly what should perform at what standard? Or is it that he's actually an expert at this as he's done it for decades, and he tests with a mallet throughout the manufacturing process - and then will downgrade if the bat isn't good enough for a Reserve grade? You're asking for a set formula that will give you absolute results - if the above is what Jim does, then that's not it. And what are standardised specs? Weren't you talking about how bat sizing was all wrong?


So, low-density clefts were nothing but a marketing ploy and they don't add anything to a bat's performance. Thanks for acknowledging this. Many of us were duped by snake oil salesmen.
 

Fair comment. Nobody went broke fooling bat-performance-hungry club cricketers.

Bottom line: What you have written is really a bunch of excuses for lacking proper standards of performance for cricket bats! "Natural product". "You want to pay more".

Golfers used wooden clubs once. Nobody complains about "natural product" today. Same with tennis. Their equipment performs from day 1 and their usual challenge is finding more (weekend) time to use it. Poor clubbies futz around with their bats and the proposed solution: "buy another one"! C'mon.

It will take someone far far more intelligent and experienced in this field than either of us to say whether or not low density has got an effect on performance, and whether it can be quantified at all. All I can say is that I've had older styled traditional bats which aren't low density outperform more modern shaped 'lower density' bats. I should add that I would think having a very dense cleft may be detrimental, as I've been told that what gives the spring/performance is a hard solid layer on top of a spongey more porous layer.

Then on the flip side, the GM Players bats are normally a cut above their standard off the shelf - but you do find some standard off the shelf GMs which will be as good as you'll get as well. If you only buy GM, and this has been your experience, then you'd be under the impression that bigger bats do perform better.

The key is they used wooden clubs once - now they use composite materials. (Not a golfer, have no knowledge in this field) Tennis - they used wooden rackets with high tension string - they've changed too. The materials we use for cricket bats has been mostly the same. Alternatives have been tried, but none quite matched the characteristics that willow grown in England offers.

What ought to be the proper standards to test a cricket bat? What kind of metric would you like to see? As much as I loathe the ping videos where some bloke takes a rock hard ball and belts it against the ceiling while exclaiming 'wooow' for half he video - that's pretty much what is done by most to test rebound.

Besides, who the heck knows what a 2lb 11oz bat should perform like?!

« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 07:10:35 PM by Chad »
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