Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Vitas Cricket on May 23, 2014, 11:59:29 AM
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Bat X weighs 2'10
Bat Y weighs 2'8
Bat Z weighs 2'6
Time and time again i read a post, watch a video or hear it said in person that a bat weighing (for example) 2'10 picks up like 2'8. How can that be?! That sentence alone makes no sense at all. I've been meaning to get it off my chest for a while now, so here goes.
Lets say our willing volunteer 'Clive' picks up bat X after weighing it and seeing 2'10. He exclaims 'ooooh very light, picks up like 2'8'
He then picks up bat Y after weighing it at 2'8. Again he yelps 'oooooh yes, feels 2'6 squire!'
How in that case, can bat X feel 2'8!? What does a 2'8 bat feel like? Clive himself has just picked up bat Y which actually weighs 2'8 and said it feels like 2'6. So what exactly does bat X feel like?!
Of course Clive now has to pick up bat Z which does weigh 2'6 and makes the claim that it feels 2'4 or 2'5. How many people have ever held a bat that light? I would say very few. It again begs the question. How can bat Y which weighs 2'8, feel like 2'6 when bat Z which is 2'6 feels lighter?
Bats are a weight, an indisputable number. They either pickup heavy or they pickup light, some of course will pickup just right. Putting a number on them makes no sense at all for such a subjective thing.
Certain bat shapes lend to a lighter pickup, as do things like a heavier handle (handle weights can vary by a few ounces) or adding extra binding/grips to the handle, but none of these things change the weight, only the way the bat feels in the hands.
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this, perhaps a genuine argument back about why a bat that weighs 2'10 can feel 2'8, i could have missed something but I don't see how.
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Bat X weighs 2'10
Bat Y weighs 2'8
Bat Z weighs 2'6
Time and time again i read a post, watch a video or hear it said in person that a bat weighing (for example) 2'10 picks up like 2'8. How can that be?! That sentence alone makes no sense at all. I've been meaning to get it off my chest for a while now, so here goes.
Lets say our willing volunteer 'Clive' picks up bat X after weighing it and seeing 2'10. He exclaims 'ooooh very light, picks up like 2'8'
He then picks up bat Y after weighing it at 2'8. Again he yelps 'oooooh yes, feels 2'6 squire!'
How in that case, can bat X feel 2'8!? What does a 2'8 bat feel like? Clive himself has just picked up bat Y which actually weighs 2'8 and said it feels like 2'6. So what exactly does bat X feel like?!
Of course Clive now has to pick up bat Z which does weigh 2'6 and makes the claim that it feels 2'4 or 2'5. How many people have ever held a bat that light? I would say very few. It again begs the question. How can bat Y which weighs 2'8, feel like 2'6 when bat Z which is 2'6 feels lighter?
Bats are a weight, an indisputable number. They either pickup heavy or they pickup light, some of course will pickup just right. Putting a number on them makes no sense at all for such a subjective thing.
Certain bat shapes lend to a lighter pickup, as do things like a heavier handle (handle weights can vary by a few ounces) or adding extra binding/grips to the handle, but none of these things change the weight, only the way the bat feels in the hands.
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this, perhaps a genuine argument back about why a bat that weighs 2'10 can feel 2'8, i could have missed something but I don't see how.
Experience mate leads to bat weights in my mind although i never really say a definitive weight but know what 2-8 picks up like and know what is close to that pick up or lighter than my usual ones.
I do not pick bats on weight i go on pick up alone like many and like many might have had a natural weighted bat for a while and the pick up of the new one might feel similar.
I would rather say picks up a lot lighter which some simply do because of there design and where hard bars and so forth are.
Pick up will always be suggestive but lets be honest we know what people are trying to say.. :D
My example is
I have a 3lb 2oz bat which Buzz and Bruce have tried but it picks up much lighter but is still heavier than a 2-10oz bat..
I have a 2-9oz bat which picks up at 2-8 my normal weight range bat.
I know the pick up when i play cross batted shots but some bats do pick up lighter a exact figure no but around Yes.
Give me a profile shot it is easy to spot a heavier pick up or lighter nice pick up but like bats where all different.
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At last - common sense! ;)
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When someone says this 2lb 10 bat picks up like a 2lb 8, they actually mean: ' I remember weighing a bat that was 2lb 8 and then I picked it up. Then I picked up this bat(that weighs 2lb 10) and it reminds me of that 2lb 8 bat.'
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I picked up around 200 bats yesterday and weighted about 20 and only got 4 bats right??.
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Surely 'Clive' just has a wrong misconception of what a certain weight bat feels like in his hands? E.g. What 'Clive' thinks is a 2.8 weight is more like 2'6 etc.
The amount of times I have bought bats off eBay stated as 2'10 and come through at 2'12+ is surprising.
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I think the phrase is often used as a cliche to garner approval. Mine's bigger than yours?
I remember when I got my first Golf GTI, Mk2, 1989 G plate, 1.8 8v, small bumper, no quaterlights (I'm an old Golf geek too).
I'd say 'It goes like a G60 or VR6' but in reality it went like a well maintained 8v should.
It is also a quick and simple way of describing a pick-up. I think it's used innocently. None of us want to say our bat's pick up like a heffer.
I see your annoyance and tip my hat.
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In a similar vein. I picked up one of Paul (IJC) Cole's bats at the weekend and just in the hand it felt astonishingly light for its stated weight. Nothing to do with pick up really, it just felt a lot lighter than 2-11. The only bat that I've held that bore any similarity in terms of feeling like it was made of balsa wood is Fattus's HH, which is a pretty light bat anyway but is just silly big for 2-7 (I think). :o
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In a similar vein. I picked up one of Paul (IJC) Cole's bats at the weekend and just in the hand it felt astonishingly light for its stated weight. Nothing to do with pick up really, it just felt a lot lighter than 2-11. The only bat that I've held that bore any similarity in terms of feeling like it was made of balsa wood is Fattus's HH, which is a pretty light bat anyway but is just silly big for 2-7 (I think). :o
I too have picked up Fattus HH and concur that is density my good man, but to me that picks up right but is big.
There two ways of getting a lighter bigger bat well 4 really.
Density natural. Bigger not pick up wise appearance wise and mentally lighter because of the size.
Profile Made that way once again same volume but tends to be more wood towards the hands.
Overdry artificially. dry your bat it will pick up moisture back leads to breakages too do not do it your bat will break.
Or the cheeky Sub continent way of making a bat slightly narrower allowing for appearance of a bigger profile.
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For me, its all about balance and pick up. I like my bats light, but then after putting scuff sheet, tape, extra grips on, to be honest I don't know the weight of my bats. I do know that they pick up as I like them and feel very balanced in my stance.
I do remember picking up a couple of TONs that Jake had in stock - I recall I preferred the pick up on the 2.10 as opposed to the 2.8 - for me the dead weight shouldn't be an issue and I have to agree - surely the comment should be 'bat X picks up better than bat Y' or 'Y feels lighter than Z'...
That's my roundabout way of agreeing with the subject!
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Yes yes yes, I have wanted to write a rant about this many times, but I'm just too lazy.
I presumed it was just another bit of hyperbole used to bigg up or sell bats, as I've never read anyone saying that their bat was '2'8 picks up like 2'10 but goes like a gun and I love it' or anything of that sort. I guess when all we see is photo's of a bat, if it's got bog standard grains and size for the weight we have to try something to make it sound that bit more interesting/buyable.
It does drive me crazy every time I read it though, along with anyone saying something is 'top draw'!
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I think it's just a way of describing how a bat picks up, if a bat at a certain weight picks up much lighter than say five others in the same model I guess it's just emphasising how it feels. I agree it's a bit of a wank at times, some players just over think their bats.
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All about the person some like bottom heavy some don't either balance is key though and finding the actual middle and not just the supposed central biggest mass sweetspot.
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I tend to pick up and have a swing about, guess the weight based on past experiences with bats, then get the actual weight. Kind of like that Flare I picked up from your demo bats, I thought it was 2.8! (That's probably the most extreme example that comes to mind) What I think a 2.8 feels like is completely different to what others will feel, what I feel picks up light others will feel is heavy, so I agree that it is rubbish, unless the person picking it up is the one buying it. No harm in having a guess at the weight though!
Pick up is such a personal thing, which should be tested before the bat is weighed IMO. Pick up all the bats within your price range in a store, put aside the ones you like the feel of, then weigh them all. On the Laver page, they showed that they measure the balance point on the bat:
https://www.facebook.com/LaverandWood/photos/a.10150613049746974.450983.56120331973/10152455344786974/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/LaverandWood/photos/a.10150613049746974.450983.56120331973/10152455344786974/?type=1&theater)
Will be interesting to see if anyone else does this. I really like the way my Lavers are balanced, and even though they are all heavier than what I asked for, they still feel good in the hands!
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I tend to pick up and have a swing about, guess the weight based on past experiences with bats, then get the actual weight. Kind of like that Flare I picked up from your demo bats, I thought it was 2.8! (That's probably the most extreme example that comes to mind) What I think a 2.8 feels like is completely different to what others will feel, what I feel picks up light others will feel is heavy, so I agree that it is rubbish, unless the person picking it up is the one buying it. No harm in having a guess at the weight though!
Pick up is such a personal thing, which should be tested before the bat is weighed IMO. Pick up all the bats within your price range in a store, put aside the ones you like the feel of, then weigh them all. On the Laver page, they showed that they measure the balance point on the bat:
https://www.facebook.com/LaverandWood/photos/a.10150613049746974.450983.56120331973/10152455344786974/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/LaverandWood/photos/a.10150613049746974.450983.56120331973/10152455344786974/?type=1&theater)
Will be interesting to see if anyone else does this. I really like the way my Lavers are balanced, and even though they are all heavier than what I asked for, they still feel good in the hands!
I can tell you that is correct Streaky has done some crazy science with such stuff far to high brow for my mercurial thoughts.
I grab a bat see if it is ok then use it.. Then get weight off it normally.... :D
I know a company who do a pick up index i think that is the same as well it personal preference.
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There has to be scientific way of giving a value to this?
From what I can think of below are the characteristics which effects the pick up
1. Dead weight of the blade
2. Distance to the Centre of gravity from your bottom hand.
3. Thickness of the handle
Not sure if aero dynamics has any effect on con caving which eventually effects the pick up when you lift the bat? if it does then has to be very minimal I would have thought?
I've read bow has an effect as well but I'm failing to see how.
Did I miss anything?
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Bat X weighs 2'10
Bat Y weighs 2'8
Bat Z weighs 2'6
Time and time again i read a post, watch a video or hear it said in person that a bat weighing (for example) 2'10 picks up like 2'8. How can that be?! That sentence alone makes no sense at all. I've been meaning to get it off my chest for a while now, so here goes.
Lets say our willing volunteer 'Clive' picks up bat X after weighing it and seeing 2'10. He exclaims 'ooooh very light, picks up like 2'8'
He then picks up bat Y after weighing it at 2'8. Again he yelps 'oooooh yes, feels 2'6 squire!'
How in that case, can bat X feel 2'8!? What does a 2'8 bat feel like? Clive himself has just picked up bat Y which actually weighs 2'8 and said it feels like 2'6. So what exactly does bat X feel like?!
Of course Clive now has to pick up bat Z which does weigh 2'6 and makes the claim that it feels 2'4 or 2'5. How many people have ever held a bat that light? I would say very few. It again begs the question. How can bat Y which weighs 2'8, feel like 2'6 when bat Z which is 2'6 feels lighter?
Bats are a weight, an indisputable number. They either pickup heavy or they pickup light, some of course will pickup just right. Putting a number on them makes no sense at all for such a subjective thing.
Certain bat shapes lend to a lighter pickup, as do things like a heavier handle (handle weights can vary by a few ounces) or adding extra binding/grips to the handle, but none of these things change the weight, only the way the bat feels in the hands.
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this, perhaps a genuine argument back about why a bat that weighs 2'10 can feel 2'8, i could have missed something but I don't see how.
Oooooh! Somebody got out of the bed the wrong side this morning!!! where's my handbag?
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In all seriousness, I never pick a bat on stated weight now - it is purely on pickup.
I use light bats now and my main bat is around 2.8lbs. But I have an old Symonds Tusker that weighs nearly 2.11 and picks up just as well, and is just as useable.
Also, Dave's ridiculous 3.2lbs bat that I used the other night - if he hadn't have told me the weight, I'd have staked my enormous reputation on it being 2.12 max.
It surely has to be on pickup if you have the luxury of being able to play with the bat before purchase?
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In most instances I think these claims are spurious. You could say "bat X picks up light for its actual weight of Z" but there is no way of putting an actual number on that; I suppose you could, if you picked the bat up blind, manage to justify "I was surprised to find that this weighed X because it felt lighter to me"?
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As my mate Typewriter has said on a pm most pick up without gloves on anyway?? Defeats the whole object.
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As my mate Typewriter has said on a pm most pick up without gloves on anyway?? Defeats the whole object.
Correct. We have a loan set of gloves in the shop, if you are in to buy a bat you can't touch them until the gloves are on.
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There has to be scientific way of giving a value to this?
From what I can think of below are the characteristics which effects the pick up
1. Dead weight of the blade
2. Distance to the Centre of gravity from your bottom hand.
3. Thickness of the handle
Not sure if aero dynamics has any effect on con caving which eventually effects the pick up when you lift the bat? if it does then has to be very minimal I would have thought?
I've read bow has an effect as well but I'm failing to see how.
Did I miss anything?
You missed
Weight and Strength of the batsman may be?
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You missed
Weight and Strength of the batsman may be?
I don't think you got what I was trying to say,
Was trying to calculate a 'number' based on those attributes with Physics and Maths rather than relying on strength and opinion of a person.
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ahh ok Mini...you are not working for GM by any chance, are you
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ahh ok Mini...you are not working for GM by any chance, are you
LOL
End of the day it is physics.
I think I missed the gap between two hands when holding the bat and the area covered by your hands when holding the bat .
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im glad this annoys other people because it one of those little bug bears of mine. the worst is when they say i feel 0.5oz lighter then the stated weight as this is such a tiny amount its just nonsense.
I completely get that bats can pick up lighter then other even in the same weight.
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And this whole topic is where this discussion http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=29018.msg457055#msg457055 (http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=29018.msg457055#msg457055) came from.
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Please no more maths!
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To many people are overthinking.
Pick a bat up if it feels good to with it score your runs drink a beer if your old enough then go home tell the wife.
Repeat
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To many people are overthinking.
Pick a bat up if it feels good to with it score your runs drink a beer if your old enough then go home tell the wife.
Repeat
made me laugh a lot that!!
when i come home i have to get my bat out and gloves ona and then go through the shots i played so my wife can see them .... thankfully she is a serious cricket lover!!
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I dont pay any attention to when people say a bat picks up like XYZ pounds.
And the reason being - any straight object when picked up from the point where CG is, is where it should feel lightest and thats the actual weight of the object. The object should start to feel heavier than the actual weight as you move the pick up point to left or right of the CG. And will feel heaviest when the object is picked up from either end. We hold the bat very close to one end and technically the bat should feel heavier than actual weight, never lighter than actual weight.
I think when people say it picks up lighter, it just means that they are comfortable using the bat and play the shots.
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@CrickFreak yes, although I agree to an extent the pick up will depend on what things have been done to try and alter that CG point because obviously the closer the CG point is to the hands the lighter it will feel therefore you could have a 2:10 high middled bat with counter balance handle etc etc that would feel lighter than a 2:8 bat with the middle right at the toe a super skinny handle and no meat at the shoulders so it is worth listening to what people feel the pick up to be as a guidline but it is subjective.
As for the bat not being able to feel lighter than it does at this point that is correct but I think when this is said its what in general we would expect a bat of that shape to pick up like or a 'standard shape' bat in that weight would pick up and feel like and then if it is lighter than we'd expect them it has a light pick up.
Just my opinion any ways
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@CrickFreak yes, although I agree to an extent the pick up will depend on what things have been done to try and alter that CG point because obviously the closer the CG point is to the hands the lighter it will feel therefore you could have a 2:10 high middled bat with counter balance handle etc etc that would feel lighter than a 2:8 bat with the middle right at the toe a super skinny handle and no meat at the shoulders so it is worth listening to what people feel the pick up to be as a guidline but it is subjective.
As for the bat not being able to feel lighter than it does at this point that is correct but I think when this is said its what in general we would expect a bat of that shape to pick up like or a 'standard shape' bat in that weight would pick up and feel like and then if it is lighter than we'd expect them it has a light pick up.
Just my opinion any ways
Agreed, and an expert bat maker will move the CG higher up and still maintain the weight distribution such that you get good value for your shots (impart hight momentum on the ball). BUt still the point of pickup is going to be away from the CG point and the bat should feel heavier than actual weight, never lighter.
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Yes it will always feel heavier than the dead weight but equally I think people get caught up and confused with what a heavy weight actually is like 2.12 could be considered heavy but although it will feel heavier it may well feel lighter than they are expecting, such as a 1271 shape from b3 will pick up well, not lighter
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Isn't it just more BS designed to sell a bat, I'd be more inclined to believe it if you ever heard/read:
Low meddled shape, 2.8 but picks up like 2.10.
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Isn't it just more BS designed to sell a bat, I'd be more inclined to believe it if you ever heard/read:
Low meddled shape, 2.8 but picks up like 2.10.
I bought a B3 on eBay with almost those exact words:
"The bat has 7 grains, a 37mm edge and weighs 2lb 8oz but feels about a ounce heavier as all the meat is at the bottom."
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@CrickFreak yes, although I agree to an extent the pick up will depend on what things have been done to try and alter that CG point because obviously the closer the CG point is to the hands the lighter it will feel therefore you could have a 2:10 high middled bat with counter balance handle etc etc that would feel lighter than a 2:8 bat with the middle right at the toe a super skinny handle and no meat at the shoulders so it is worth listening to what people feel the pick up to be as a guidline but it is subjective.
As for the bat not being able to feel lighter than it does at this point that is correct but I think when this is said its what in general we would expect a bat of that shape to pick up like or a 'standard shape' bat in that weight would pick up and feel like and then if it is lighter than we'd expect them it has a light pick up.
Just my opinion any ways
Couldnt have put it better.
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Bit of a thread digup this...
Comparing pickup weights isn't the worst way of describing a bat, everyone has their own idea of what a bat should feel like at a certain weight. Gets stupid when people try and do it constantly though, or as a sales tool.
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Always makes me laugh on here the amount of people who buy a bat then a week later they sell it on here as its too heavy by an ounce or two or 5/10 20p coins! Do think people get too hung up exact weights.
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This is something that we are very interested in and to be honest we sell on dead weight purely because it is accepted in the industry. Is it correct? I personally don’t think it is, as different weights can “feel” or “pick up” differently irrespective of the scale weight.
The way it is described i.e. picking up lighter than its scale weight is not correct as hopefully the below diagram explains, as the scale weight is the lightest weight of the bat (held in the vertical plane). As you rotate the bat through 90 degree’s the bat will gain weight, due to the Centre of gravity (COG) being further away from the pivot point as the bat rotates.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2yybbb4.jpg)
The scientific name for “pick up” is Moment of Inertia or MOI, and every bat has a MOI which is related to a few things, namely Centre of Gravity and scale weight. If you could sell on MOI instead of scale weight – which is by no means an easy task you would ensure that the customer gets the right “balanced” / “pick-up” / “feel” of bat every time.
What people mean when they say it weighs 2lb 10oz but picks up 2lb 8oz is that comparatively the bat picks up lighter (lower MOI) than what a typical 2lb 10oz bat would, and therefore picking up lighter.
How can this be done, it is simple - by moving the centre of gravity closer to the pivot point, as the below image hopefully illustrates, al be it crudely. If these bats had the same blade/handle mass, and were the same volume, the bottom bat would have a lower MOI – or pick up better than the top bat. Also, if 2 bats had the same Mass, but one was fitted with a 3oz heavier handle and therefore the blade was 3oz lighter in mass (same volume) this too would result in a higher COG and therefore a lower MOI and significantly affect the pickup.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/23k42z5.jpg)
Whilst I completely disagree with this thread, I can see why people are confused about pick up, as presently it is all subjective. I have done a fair amount of research and started to develop shapes with an improved MOI, I will be doing some very interesting research with a couple of Masters Students at SHU in the New Year developing this theory.
Streaky
ps - dont forget to sign up for my blog www.cricketbatblog.com (http://www.cricketbatblog.com) ;-)
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What people mean when they say it weighs 2lb 10oz but picks up 2lb 8oz is that comparatively the bat picks up lighter (lower MOI) than what a typical 2lb 10oz bat would, and therefore picking up lighter.
That's all I needed to read, and the crux of my entire point. A 'typical' 2'10 bat does not exist.
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That's all I needed to read, and the crux of my entire point. A 'typical' 2'10 bat does not exist.
Yes it does exist. A recent video we did of a GN500 weighed 2.10 and it felt just like a 2.10.
How do I know what a 2.10 bat feels like? 38 years of experience with branded cricket bats.
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Also the greater the bow of the blade the higher ther centre of gravity therefore a blade with a pronounced bow and a low middle will pick up lighter than a flat blade with an high middle
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A typical bat for a low middle user is not the same as a typical bat for a higher middle user. That's why my lower middle bats are around 2lb8oz and the higher middles around 2lb12oz.
A person in the know will take into account the middle position of the bat in question and judge for themselves whether it will be suitable for them.
I do think though that too many people are a little precious when it comes to bat weights.
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I love a grumpy rant. Man after my own heart @Vitas Cricket
I would be very interested in opinions on how a bow can make a difference. I struggle to understand the science behind that but i think i agree from picking up different bats.
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A typical bat for a low middle user is not the same as a typical bat for a higher middle user. That's why my lower middle bats are around 2lb8oz and the higher middles around 2lb12oz.
A person in the know will take into account the middle position of the bat in question and judge for themselves whether it will be suitable for them.
I do think though that too many people are a little precious when it comes to bat weights.
I'll agree with this as a couple of months ago I went down to see Matt at H4L to pick a devil from the ones he had avaibable, I had asked for the ones around 2,8 to be picked out for me. I used before this a 2,75 bat with a low middle. The bat I selected from the few that Matt had available felt the same as my at that stage current bat, it was only when I weighed it after playing a few indoor games with it and someone asking me how much it weighs that I realised it is now at 2,10.7 with a toe guard scuff sheet and hybrid grip. It doesn't change anything in my mind but weird to think how a thicker handle duckbill toe and thicker shoulders could make a bat with 3 ounce weight difference feel the same in my hands. Lesson learnt; pick on feel
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Yes it does exist. A recent video we did of a GN500 weighed 2.10 and it felt just like a 2.10.
How do I know what a 2.10 bat feels like? 38 years of experience with branded cricket bats.
I agree 100 per cent with your comment experience of bats i know what 2-8 feels like as it what i use but i have weight my bats and some where 2-10 some where 2-7 but they all felt 2-8..
Balance and pick up is more important than dead weight i don't like if it used as a sales tool but when density is involved for instance i can assure you if i use a 400 cleft and a 410 cleft so one ounce different if i tend to put it closer to my hand the weight i can get a heavier cleft feeling around the weight even though i know it a ounce heavier..
A "typical bat" comes from the experience of the user i also know what a 2-10 and 2-6 feels like.
Always go on feel or pick up or quality controlled measure if you can
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Or as i say pick up 20 bats find the one that feels like your current bat which ever forumite knows down to .001 of a ounce
pick the one closest to what your bat you use feels like.
Weight it you will be surprised most of the times....
Pick up and balance is the way forward now if you cant be there the knowledge of the shopkeeper/maker is very very important.
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That's all I needed to read, and the crux of my entire point. A 'typical' 2'10 bat does not exist.
Begs the question - how do you sell your bats then, both in store and online?
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Also the greater the bow of the blade the higher ther centre of gravity therefore a blade with a pronounced bow and a low middle will pick up lighter than a flat blade with an high middle
In my mind The only way a bow would improve pick up is if the curvature of the bow shortened the bat length, but as it doesn't I don't see how it can. The bat is effectively a beam.
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I think the bow puts the weight above the hands faster with the pick up hence the "improved pick up" feel.
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Pivot point is a big thing now look at the baseball style pick up ie Barstow and a few others allows a different variation
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I think the bow puts the weight above the hands faster with the pick up hence the "improved pick up" feel.
I think this one is an urban myth as the pick up is based on a linear distance of cog from pivot point for a given mass.
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Yes it does exist. A recent video we did of a GN500 weighed 2.10 and it felt just like a 2.10.
How do I know what a 2.10 bat feels like? 38 years of experience with branded cricket bats.
Would you back yourself guessing the weights of bats though?
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When I am feeling good and strong at the start of innings whatever bat I use feels like a 2.7 2.8, 90 minutes in to the game and even a 2.7 bat feels like 2.12
Physics element is true but it is still a human at the end of the day waving these bats around who will feel different at different times in his innings.
Stick around a weight you know you are comfortable with and never buy in to the heavy bat but picks up light as you may like it on the day but over time you will realise it is not your weight.
Or just hit the gym more often
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I love a grumpy rant. Man after my own heart @Vitas Cricket
I would be very interested in opinions on how a bow can make a difference. I struggle to understand the science behind that but i think i agree from picking up different bats.
As we are aware Cricket bat blades can have varying degrees of curves each curve as its own advantages as the more pronounced the bow the higher the centre of gravity the higher the centre of gravity the better the pickup.
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As we are aware Cricket bat blades can have varying degrees of curves each curve as its own advantages as the more pronounced the bow the higher the centre of gravity the higher the centre of gravity the better the pickup.
How does a bow physical change the centre of gravity of a bat? People keep repeating that a more pronounced bow alters the CoG of a bat without explaining how it could do it. As The Doctor says, if the length of the bat is unaltered by the bow the CoG doesn't alter.
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How does a bow physical change the centre of gravity of a bat? People keep repeating that a more pronounced bow alters the CoG of a bat without explaining how it could do it. As The Doctor says, if the length of the bat is unaltered by the bow the CoG doesn't alter.
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This is how I understand it too.
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Begs the question - how do you sell your bats then, both in store and online?
This discussion was never about how we sell bats. It was to address the mind numbing rubbish i see posted (and said away from the forum) fairly regularly.
As an example, in a sales context. A customer walked into the shop in the Summer (he is a good example of the type of person we see regularly) and declared he wanted a bat that weighed 2'10 as he has always used a 2'10, blah blah blah.
I lined 10 bats up that i knew all weighed 2'10 and asked him to tell me which 3 weighed 2'10. He couldn't decide, took him twenty minutes and eventually could only say for sure that there were 2 that he thought were 2'10. I then flipped the tables entirely and got 10 more bats out, all of which were either 2'8, 2'9, 2'11 or 2'12 and asked him to tell me which ones were not 2'10. He picked out 4 and was confident the rest were 2'10. One of which (a 2'11) he purchased.
Pickup/feel/balance/whatever we want to call it, is subjective. A bat is a weight, and indisputable number. My only point in the whole topic is that 'this bat is 2'10 but feels 2'8' is a ridiculous statement, because when that same person picks up a bat that actually weighs 2'8, they are likely to declare that it feels lighter, which does beg the question, what does the 2'10 feel like then?
Bats feel light to certain individuals, they feel heavy to certain individuals, and just sometimes that certain individual gets a bat that is just right, for them.
Whats even more hysterical is when i see people try to go into minute detail with the number that their bat picks up. 'This is 2'11 but feels more like 2'9.5' - WHAT?!
Online is another ball game entirely. Bats are generally sold online by their weight. I have noticed handles get skinnier and skinnier recently and to me this can only be to save weight in order to satisfy the online demand for bats at 2'8. Of course this comes at the detriment of pickup compared to the same bat at the same weight with a thicker handle.
If someone contacts us then i will of course give my opinion/knowledge on a certain bat and try to provide something that suits the customers needs. Our extremely low return rate when it comes to undamaged items is hopefully testament to doing a good job. We also have regular customers on and off the forum, who trust me entirely to get a bat that suits them, i've sourced enough bats for all of these chaps to know exactly what they want. One particular guy wants bats that feel absolutely horrible to me when i select them, bottom heavy logs of old crap is what they feel like, but he loves them.
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This discussion was never about how we sell bats. It was to address the mind numbing rubbish i see posted (and said away from the forum) fairly regularly.
As an example, in a sales context. A customer walked into the shop in the Summer (he is a good example of the type of person we see regularly) and declared he wanted a bat that weighed 2'10 as he has always used a 2'10, blah blah blah.
I lined 10 bats up that i knew all weighed 2'10 and asked him to tell me which 3 weighed 2'10. He couldn't decide, took him twenty minutes and eventually could only say for sure that there were 2 that he thought were 2'10. I then flipped the tables entirely and got 10 more bats out, all of which were either 2'8, 2'9, 2'11 or 2'12 and asked him to tell me which ones were not 2'10. He picked out 4 and was confident the rest were 2'10. One of which (a 2'11) he purchased.
Pickup/feel/balance/whatever we want to call it, is subjective. A bat is a weight, and indisputable number. My only point in the whole topic is that 'this bat is 2'10 but feels 2'8' is a ridiculous statement, because when that same person picks up a bat that actually weighs 2'8, they are likely to declare that it feels lighter, which does beg the question, what does the 2'10 feel like then?
Bats feel light to certain individuals, they feel heavy to certain individuals, and just sometimes that certain individual gets a bat that is just right, for them.
Whats even more hysterical is when i see people try to go into minute detail with the number that their bat picks up. 'This is 2'11 but feels more like 2'9.5' - WHAT?!
Online is another ball game entirely. Bats are generally sold online by their weight. I have noticed handles get skinnier and skinnier recently and to me this can only be to save weight in order to satisfy the online demand for bats at 2'8. Of course this comes at the detriment of pickup compared to the same bat at the same weight with a thicker handle.
If someone contacts us then i will of course give my opinion/knowledge on a certain bat and try to provide something that suits the customers needs. Our extremely low return rate when it comes to undamaged items is hopefully testament to doing a good job. We also have regular customers on and off the forum, who trust me entirely to get a bat that suits them, i've sourced enough bats for all of these chaps to know exactly what they want. One particular guy wants bats that feel absolutely horrible to me when i select them, bottom heavy logs of old crap is what they feel like, but he loves them.
Seems to be a contradiction here, you are saying that "Bat Weight/Pickup - 'This 2'10 feels like 2'8' - Tripe!" but you actually sell effectively on pick up in the store.
You are right however that pick up is currently subject and very much a personal thing. But it doesnt have to be like that - pick up can be and should be objective and definitive, so once you have your MOI number you can repeatably order the same "feel" of bat time and time again. It is not quite as simple as that but we have been working on this for the past 6 months, with the aim to provide this as a service.
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Pick up can be and should be objective and definitive, so once you have your MOI number you can repeatably order the same "feel" of bat time and time again. It is not quite as simple as that but we have been working on this for the past 6 months, with the aim to provide this as a service.
This seems a brilliant idea
1. caveat though - human's are fickle beasts and I can see people imagining a difference that might not be there...!
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I don't see any contradiction at all. I'm very much for buying on pickup, we don't write the weights on the bats, i know what they are generally by where they are stored. If someone wants to weigh it, they can.
I cannot be clearer than this. All I am saying is that a statement declaring a bat to feel lighter or heavier than expected compared to the scale weight is fine. To put a weight on this subjective feeling is ridiculous.
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You are right however that pick up is currently subject and very much a personal thing. But it doesnt have to be like that - pick up can be and should be objective and definitive, so once you have your MOI number you can repeatably order the same "feel" of bat time and time again. It is not quite as simple as that but we have been working on this for the past 6 months, with the aim to provide this as a service.
Now that could be interesting! Not to me you understand as I'm a caveman, but to someone who actually knows what they're doing with bat in hand!
SEE BALL HIT BALL!!!!!!!
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To put a weight on this subjective feeling is ridiculous.
I am sorry - you are catergorically wrong. This can be, and is being measured.
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I am sorry - you are catergorically wrong. This can be, and is being measured.
But surely someone who is used to very low middle bats at 2.10 and has used them all his or her life picks up a 2.10 bat it with a mid middle, they will say it pick up light, but when you then get another person who has also used 2.10 bats all their life but with a very high middle, they will say that, that same bat that the first person said picks up well, picks up badly. So although you could measure the change of the COG compared to where it would be without the measures taken to alter it, as it is a purely subjective thing people will still disagree
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But surely someone who is used to very low middle bats at 2.10 and has used them all his or her life picks up a 2.10 bat it with a mid middle, they will say it pick up light, but when you then get another person who has also used 2.10 bats all their life but with a very high middle, they will say that, that same bat that the first person said picks up well, picks up badly. So although you could measure the change of the COG compared to where it would be without the measures taken to alter it, as it is a purely subjective thing people will still disagree
This wouldn't matter once you could put a number on the pick up though would it. If the high middled 2.10 picked up at xPV (Pickup Value) and the mid middled 2.10 was yPV and the low middled 2.10 was zPV it should be possible to assign a value to every connotation of bat. Not that I'm an expert by any means, just my take on it. I could be way off the mark haha!
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But surely someone who is used to very low middle bats at 2.10 and has used them all his or her life picks up a 2.10 bat it with a mid middle, they will say it pick up light, but when you then get another person who has also used 2.10 bats all their life but with a very high middle, they will say that, that same bat that the first person said picks up well, picks up badly. So although you could measure the change of the COG compared to where it would be without the measures taken to alter it, as it is a purely subjective thing people will still disagree
Take the personal aspect out of the equation - one bat will have a given MOI measurement which can be directly compared to another taking out this subjective / personal judgement. It wont be "this has a good pick up", instead I prefer MOI number of XYZ.
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But surely someone who is used to very low middle bats at 2.10 and has used them all his or her life picks up a 2.10 bat it with a mid middle, they will say it pick up light, but when you then get another person who has also used 2.10 bats all their life but with a very high middle, they will say that, that same bat that the first person said picks up well, picks up badly. So although you could measure the change of the COG compared to where it would be without the measures taken to alter it, as it is a purely subjective thing people will still disagree
if it was me, i would bear in mind who is saying it, if its someone who has had a few bats (limited number / limited experience) or whether its someone who has had literally thousands pass through their hands.
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Take the personal aspect out of the equation - one bat will have a given MOI measurement which can be directly compared to another taking out this subjective / personal judgement. It wont be "this has a good pick up", instead I prefer MOI number of XYZ.
Exactly what I was trying to say, but worded better haha
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I am sorry - you are catergorically wrong. This can be, and is being measured.
MOI is not weight unless I've missed something.
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MOI is not weight unless I've missed something.
You are correct but MOI will increase with an increase in weight.
MOI is the technical term for pick up / feel / balance
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I would love to see a different "scale" of bats if im honest, the whole MOI sounds alot more reliable and explains alot more about a bat than what dead weight does.
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I'm sure Tim ran something similar, where you weighed both the toe end and the handle end of a bat and noted them down. The weight at the toe indicated how heavy the bat would 'feel', and weight at the top is obviously the counterbalancing weight. Not sure where the thread is, but it gave a pretty decent indication of how a 'pick up quantifying system' could work!
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Is there an easy way to measure the weight (MOI?) of the bat if COG is located in different places? Tie/hang the handle (pivot point) to a fixed rope from ceiling and a hanging spring scale moved up and down differenct parts of the blade?
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@Chad is right - we came up with the proposal a couple of years ago. It basically helps you understand the distribution of weight along the length of the bat, giving rise to an idea of how it will pick up. The topic can be found here: http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=29018.msg457055#msg457055 (http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=29018.msg457055#msg457055)
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I'm sure Tim ran something similar, where you weighed both the toe end and the handle end of a bat and noted them down. The weight at the toe indicated how heavy the bat would 'feel', and weight at the top is obviously the counterbalancing weight. Not sure where the thread is, but it gave a pretty decent indication of how a 'pick up quantifying system' could work!
Yep. 2 identical scales on a horizontal surface and bob's your uncle!
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I think the whole idea that club cricketers can know the precise weight their bat needs to be, to the exact ounce, is a bit ridiculous.
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I think the whole idea that club cricketers can know the precise weight their bat needs to be, to the exact ounce, is a bit ridiculous.
Obviously, noone needs their cricket bat to be anything at all. However if people know their own preference then good on them, everyone has their sweet spot. I know myself that in the types of shapes I like for match use, I very consistently choose bats that are within less than an ounce difference in weight when I put them on the scales. Now I know what I like, but can easily imagine an OCD type being much more picky.