Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: jamesisapayne on October 22, 2014, 02:34:12 PM
-
I was wondering if anyone knew roughly the current cost of a G1 cleft, in it's raw form supplied to the bat manufacturer in comparison to a G2, G3 etc.
Could anyone enlighten me ;)
James
-
will be interesting to know but I doubt makers here will be willing to share that information.
-
will be interesting to know but I doubt makers here will be willing to share that information.
I never thought about that!
-
I never thought about that!
Next you will be asking them why do you charge X amount for a bat when the cleft only costs Y amount.
I am sure you can find that information but from an inside source.
-
Next you will be asking them why do you charge X amount for a bat when the cleft only costs Y amount.
I am sure you can find that information but from an inside source.
it is a huge difference, scarily large difference. still, we are dumb and keep paying it and they aren't really there for us after all.. there for the ££
-
Next you will be asking them why do you charge X amount for a bat when the cleft only costs Y amount.
Oooh, I think you've got me guvnor.
(http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/xstick_em_up_cat_burglar.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qgBMhTxPj2.jpg)
In all seriousness, if I'm paying my hard earned cash I think I'm well within my rights to ask the question.
-
Well each Cleft is effectively just a metre of Timber. Imagine if you went to your local B & Q and saw a metre of timber for even say £40, you'd have a heart attack!
Even timber like Brazillian Mahogany isn't more than £20 a metre, and that is a damn sight more difficult to get hold of than some Willow from Essex, especially once you factor in transport as well....
-
it is a huge difference, scarily large difference. still, we are dumb and keep paying it and they aren't really there for us after all.. there for the ££
Once you've had a go at making your own, you may appreciate why the cost of a cleft versus the cost of a bat is significantly different. Or you could simply buy a cleft and try batting with it...
-
And before anyone says anything I'm not looking to stir anything up or annoy people - that's not my intention.
I simply want to make an informed decision on what bat to buy (value for money-wise) and want to filter out the one's who are taking the michael.
On simple logic, I'm pretty sure the companies who are, are the one's who have lots of sponsorships to pay for.
-
Once you've had a go at making your own, you may appreciate why the cost of a cleft versus the cost of a bat is significantly different. Or you could simply buy a cleft and try batting with it...
if you have all the right kit it doesn't take that long to knock out a bat (taking out glue drying time, oil etc etc). If you don't have the right kit then I suspect it takes a lot longer and is much harder.
One day I'll find out, until then, I only know what I've seen and it didn't take long.
-
Well each Cleft is effectively just a metre of Timber. Imagine if you went to your local B & Q and saw a metre of timber for even say £40, you'd have a heart attack!
Even timber like Brazillian Mahogany isn't more than £20 a metre, and that is a damn sight more difficult to get hold of than some Willow from Essex, especially once you factor in transport as well....
like most woods, you pay for not just the willow but the upkeep of the trees, the cutting, sawing, drying, storing etc.
as a bat you are also then paying for all that plus- machining time, pressing, glue, handles, twine etc etc. you are also paying for the time and skill of the maker and any other overheads they have. with the bigger companies you are also paying for sponsoring the top players. its suprising how quickly some of these costs can add up, I think you may also be surprised on the cost of a cleft ( grade dependant)
for me, I would recommend going to a small independent bat maker. you can get a very similar product for a lot less than the big boys charge. you also can get a much better service and its easier to customise and get the bat you want
-
From what I've seen in the past if you were buying in bulk you'd be paying around £40 for a raw G1 cleft and lose perhaps just under a tenner for every grade down. That's very rough though and obviously I'm on in the industry therefore don't take what I say as fact.
-
if you have all the right kit it doesn't take that long to knock out a bat (taking out glue drying time, oil etc etc). If you don't have the right kit then I suspect it takes a lot longer and is much harder.
One day I'll find out, until then, I only know what I've seen and it didn't take long.
errm missing the bit about experience, skills etc. mate. You can get me all the tools in the world, I still wouldn't be able to produce anything vaguely similar to a bat. I know the difference is scarily huge and most are taking the mickey but let's give credit to the skills and experience where it is due.
-
I suspect even if you had the right kit it's something that would be learnt over years rather than knocking out-so to speak
Nowadays the way I choose a bat to buy with my own money is first ignore what is on the telly,unless by chance it's a small brand, H4L for example
try to get a grade 1 and then work out who the best person is to make it for me.
If I can get a Salix second hand I would,or a Warsop.I'm confident with those 2, but that's just my personal experience,others will be different :)
-
I simply want to make an informed decision on what bat to buy (value for money-wise) and want to filter out the one's who are taking the michael.
sorry bud, I have to say this...do you check the price of cotton or fabric before you buy clothes, jeans etc. or the cost of raw leather before buying shoes.
Most are taking the mickey in my very personal opinion. Especially when it is not even G1 but G3 masked as Performance Grade etc.
Value for money, I think Red Ink has it spot on.
-
Most are taking the mickey in my very personal opinion. Especially when it is not even G1 but G3 masked as Performance Grade etc.
Value for money, I think Red Ink has it spot on.
That's the issue - virtually every company that sells 'performance grade' willow is effectively just mugging off the consumer by charging higher prices for lesser grade willow. I have no issues with those that put in the time to craft willow at the correct grade and sell it for a higher price though, you charge what you believe your time and product deserves - not what everyone else charges. Just because I charge 'X' amount for Neon bats doesn't mean everyone else should charge the same - Although my bats are English made I put very little time with them being made for me so compared to the likes of H4L, Aldred, Red Ink etc their products deserve a higher price tag in my opinion.
Agree with the Red Ink comment too, you really can't beat John's prices at the moment - £100 for a handmade bat is fantastic.
-
I suspect though many of you who think your getting made in the Uk aren't at all too.
Interesting topic the smaller maker has benefits like no overheads but also normally do not have there selection of willow either.
There are pro and cons for big or small as for cleft prices well i do know prices are going up and i also know there going to be very limited we could see more and more lesser grades going to the smaller makers even the ones who coat tail bigger brands.
I think people charge what they want and thats fair i have gone with big and small and in truth not many can get me what i really want i like choice not all smaller maker can not deliver not because they cant do the job but because they do not have the selection of willow i want.
-
I suspect though many of you who think your getting made in the Uk aren't at all too.
I know for a fact I am, I've seen them made with my own eyes - agree on other cases though, some brands do lie, which is a great shame
-
I know for a fact I am, I've seen them made with my own eyes - agree on other cases though, some brands do lie, which is a great shame
Not questioning you mate. I had a look at some of your kit a few weeks ago good stuff mate.
-
You have to buy in mass and can't just buy grade 1s for ever grade 1 your have a lot more 2and3s and lots more want grade 1 than grade 2 and 3s so you have a lot of 3s setting about so you have to charge more for grade 1 to make up for the loss of them lower grade bats hope that makes sense also takes a lot more to look after willow than a lot of timber in b +q plus a lot of there wood is brought in from cheaper labour lands English willow = English wage
-
Do you want an honest answer ..... You can't buy a single cleft
You would need to spend £1500+ just to find out the price of one untouched G1 cleft.
The more you buy I presume the cheaper it is
-
Not even worth getting into, as said above there's certain ratios you have to buy in and about 28 differing grades on offer starting of as a little as a few pounds. Very roughly speaking a brand will aim to sell at RRP of 4 times the cost price (after manufacturing and all raw materials) across all except the super premium models, meaning in terms of actual £ the most is made on top grade bats.
-
The difference between the grade 1 and 3 is not that much, yet the difference between what the bat maker is apparently allowed to charge is substantial. The per hour price is different yet the same amount of effort is poured into the bat regardless of the grade.
The performance grade is a legitimate way for bat makers attempting to challenge the belief that clean clefts perform better than blemished ones AND gives them a chance of selling the lower grade clefts that there is a market for. Some clefts have blemishes in the back and get downgraded despite them being fine performers.
This information will not help you choose a better bat, nor will it make paying "X" amount any more acceptable or otherwise.
-
Not even worth getting into, as said above there's certain ratios you have to buy in and about 28 differing grades on offer starting of as a little as a few pounds. Very roughly speaking a brand will aim to sell at RRP of 4 times the cost price (after manufacturing and all raw materials) across all except the super premium models, meaning in terms of actual £ the most is made on top grade bats.
The makers also have to factor in wasteage - clefts that fail during the making etc.
-
And before anyone says anything I'm not looking to stir anything up or annoy people - that's not my intention.
I simply want to make an informed decision on what bat to buy (value for money-wise) and want to filter out the one's who are taking the michael.
On simple logic, I'm pretty sure the companies who are, are the one's who have lots of sponsorships to pay for.
I have found this an interesting thread, but wasn't going to comment, but that phrase "taking the michael" has really resonated with me. It implies that bat makers are greedy and ripping people off just to make a quick buck. Believe me, as someone who has worked in the cricket industry full time for three years now, I know how competitive it is and how little money there is to be made. I also know many of the bat makers personally and they all do what they do for the love and passion they have for the graft. These people are anything but money grabbers! But they have bills and mortgages to pay, and in many cases, families to feed, which is easier said than done in this industry, believe me. Is it "taking the michael" to try and keep their livelihood going?
Maybe quit your day job and try and work full time in this industry for a few years and see how you get on by selling all your bats at sub £200 before making such a dig...
-
Very good post Paul
-
I have found this an interesting thread, but wasn't going to comment, but that phrase "taking the michael" has really resonated with me. It implies that bat makers are greedy and ripping people off just to make a quick buck. Believe me, as someone who has worked in the cricket industry full time for three years now, I know how competitive it is and how little money there is to be made. I also know many of the bat makers personally and they all do what they do for the love and passion they have for the graft. These people are anything but money grabbers! But they have bills and mortgages to pay, and in many cases, families to feed, which is easier said than done in this industry, believe me. Is it "taking the michael" to try and keep their livelihood going?
Maybe quit your day job and try and work full time in this industry for a few years and see how you get on by selling all your bats at sub £200 before making such a dig...
When I was sponsored many moons ago I was always told "The money is made from the softs and accessories, not generally by the bats". I know from speaking to Tony @ Hunts County last year this was the case for him. I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be for more bat makers...
Of course, in any market, there will be items targeted at the 'Cash rich, knowledge poor' individuals... and so there should be. Exploiting niche markets is key to the success in this highly competitive market.
-
A very interesting topic reading different peoples views , I have pressed 80 clefts this week ,8 are stressed or cracked during the pressing process , 10% are now wasted and lost through a natural act of god ,who pays for them ? When we buy trees or clefts it's a gamble what's in there , sometimes we win sometimes we lose
-
Maybe quit your day job and try and work full time in this industry for a few years and see how you get on by selling all your bats at sub £200 before making such a dig...
This. How many have tried to even run a small bedroom brand on here and given up? The industry has seen Mongoose, Boom Boom and Woodworm all go bust in the past 10 years. Sports shops all over the UK are closing down every week. A top grade cleft at £40 may seem like a huge mark up, but once you take into account shipping, wastage, retailer cuts, taxes, manufacturing, marketing - there really isn't much left.
-
I have found this an interesting thread, but wasn't going to comment, but that phrase "taking the michael" has really resonated with me. It implies that bat makers are greedy and ripping people off just to make a quick buck. Believe me, as someone who has worked in the cricket industry full time for three years now, I know how competitive it is and how little money there is to be made.
Paul, let's get one thing straight. It wasn't an industry dig, or a generalisation that all batmakers are greedy - I have massive respect for the people I've dealt with (It would be unfair of me to speak about those I haven't) who work in the cricket industry - people who make bats/run equipment companies/retailers such as yourself, Uzi Sports etc.
I was implying that charging astronomical prices for bats when the raw materials are relatively cheap, especially when a huge swathe of them are sent abroad for even cheaper labour costs is taking the michael out of the punter. I fully understand labour costs, overheads etc but cannot for the life of me understand how these companies can charge £3-500 for a bat graded as G1 and as much as £120 less for a G2 bat that costs around a tenner-max less material wise.
-
It must be worst if your a bedroom brand , buying in bats and sticker them up ,the profits are even smaller
-
cannot for the life of me understand how these companies can charge £3-500 for a bat graded as G1 and as much as £120 less for a G2 bat that costs around a tenner-max less material wise.
Say the prices were closer, such as £200 for a G2 and £220 for a G1. How many G2's or lower grades would a manufacturer sell?
-
Say the prices were closer, such as £200 for a G2 and £220 for a G1. How many G2's or lower grades would a manufacturer sell?
I understand your point but does that make it right Tom? And before I get flamed for saying that, I'm genuinely interested in what people think.
-
A manufacturer can only get their hands on a certain amount of top grade willow. Whilst the cost price isn't massively different, it's a case of supply and demand. You can't pitch your G1's at a bargain price, as you just don't have the plethora of G1 willow available.
-
If a grade 1 is £ 50 and grade 2 £35 times them by 6 for a finished bat ? grade 1 £300 , grade 2 £210
-
I was implying that charging astronomical prices for bats when the raw materials are relatively cheap, especially when a huge swathe of them are sent abroad for even cheaper labour costs is taking the michael out of the punter. I fully understand labour costs, overheads etc but cannot for the life of me understand how these companies can charge £3-500 for a bat graded as G1 and as much as £120 less for a G2 bat that costs around a tenner-max less material wise.
Then you need to find out if the bat you want is made in the UK and accept that the perception people have is that a clean cleft will perform better, this therefore affects the way in which the various grades are priced.
-
Grade 1 clefts are about 4-7% of an order and like has been posted there is a min order to even be able to get G1 clefts. Fact.
Grading in the industry has no rhyme or reason and is all pretty much done by the pod shaver or the brand owner. We have all seen companies charge anything from £150 (solitaire) to £700 Gray Nicolls and as has been mentioned there are many reasons to explain how these prices are reached. Normally the 1man band has lower priced bats but he has just himself to look after. When you employ people have premises etc it gets 10 fold more expensive. Try renting a business premises for less than £10k per annum plus rates etc. that's minus money before you even order you clefts, grips, decals etc.
At the end of the day it's all business end of. If you can buy a low end cleft G4 etc and market it too a market that's happy to pay x amount and that gives you for example 800% markup take your hat off to that man don't knock him. If you choose to pay that's your choice and can't be knocked for that, the great thing about opinions is there just that there is no wright or wrong. In fact many admire a brand that does just this and I also admire the business brain behind this. Do I agree with it? Well yes actually we all aim for the best be it the best bat to the best from life so do how you see fit. As long as your honest in what you do and offer than that would be good enough. Finally don't like it or agree find a brand you do agree with but respect the fact someone is aiming to make a living.
-
End of the day no one is being forced to buy anything. And the markups margins etc are like any other business.
I am certain there are people who purchase G3 4 5 clefts and sell it as 1 2 3 etc. Now the maker can argue that he/she has their own grading system. Does that mean they are taking the michelle or just exploiting the lack of industry standards.
Average punter is there to pay everyones bills but that is not limited to cricket, it is a fact of life.
Interesting thread but probably won't end well.
-
For years I have been on a crusade as I though people where beig ripped off plain and simple I thought how can batmaker a charge 180 when batmaker b charges 320.
I know the awnser I always did people mention mark up and overhead there all true.
How much does a car cost to make raw meterials
How much do your nike air cost raw meterials
I have no issue with price for people who make bats my issue is with brands who charge the earth for a bat which is made in the same place as another yet 100 pound more.
If you want to make serious money stay away from the industry do you think the owners of many brands are rich they are not.
For people intrested start a brand up see how much you can really make for small brands it beer tokens holiday money for brands with full time workers it mortgages food kids
You have full time you have spare time more clefts better choice
-
I have found this an interesting thread, but wasn't going to comment, but that phrase "taking the michael" has really resonated with me. It implies that bat makers are greedy and ripping people off just to make a quick buck. Believe me, as someone who has worked in the cricket industry full time for three years now, I know how competitive it is and how little money there is to be made. I also know many of the bat makers personally and they all do what they do for the love and passion they have for the graft. These people are anything but money grabbers! But they have bills and mortgages to pay, and in many cases, families to feed, which is easier said than done in this industry, believe me. Is it "taking the michael" to try and keep their livelihood going?
Maybe quit your day job and try and work full time in this industry for a few years and see how you get on by selling all your bats at sub £200 before making such a dig...
'Taking the michael' may be taken out of context here - But...If you imagine a bat can have a Value for Money grading, then it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion to evaluate where on a given range/brand/market a particular bat sits (in respect of VFM) especially to those for which VFM is a prime purchase decision (not everyone is hung on VFM - it's a factor for everyone I suspect, though, for example, no-one buying M&H or the Laver or Newbury sillymoney bats is particularly bothered about VFM).
Outside of a certain VFM boundary, it IS though fair for an individual to analyse a particular product and suggest that someone is 'taking the michael', however rare that may be.
Frankly, to suggest the whole industry is full of integrity and the idea of pulling fast ones or conning people (or, indeed taking the michael), is somewhat niave. That's why it's always important (IMO) to consider the individuals involved - without sounding like a smoke blowing session, most of the retailers on here (esp IJC :) ) have always done me well and I'd infer a high level of trust in them (Indeed, it's a supplemental (if not easy!) impact of sponsoring this forum in that you've come under the closest scrutiny of the nerdiest of bat owners - and survived/flourished - what better (implicit) advert for your business?!)
However, when someone releases a bat that costs 4 figures, or prices it as such that they justify it with words to the effect of "I've got 22 rich dumb Americans willing to pay for this range, who cares what you lot think", then I'd suggest they were taking more than the michael (and not just in VFM terms)!
-
'Taking the michael' may be taken out of context here - But...If you imagine a bat can have a Value for Money grading, then it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion to evaluate where on a given range/brand/market a particular bat sits (in respect of VFM) especially to those for which VFM is a prime purchase decision (not everyone is hung on VFM - it's a factor for everyone I suspect, though, for example, no-one buying M&H or the Laver or Newbury sillymoney bats is particularly bothered about VFM).
Outside of a certain VFM boundary, it IS though fair for an individual to analyse a particular product and suggest that someone is 'taking the michael', however rare that may be.
Frankly, to suggest the whole industry is full of integrity and the idea of pulling fast ones or conning people (or, indeed taking the michael), is somewhat niave. That's why it's always important (IMO) to consider the individuals involved - without sounding like a smoke blowing session, most of the retailers on here (esp IJC :) ) have always done me well and I'd infer a high level of trust in them (Indeed, it's a supplemental (if not easy!) impact of sponsoring this forum in that you've come under the closest scrutiny of the nerdiest of bat owners - and survived/flourished - what better (implicit) advert for your business?!)
However, when someone releases a bat that costs 4 figures, or prices it as such that they justify it with words to the effect of "I've got 22 rich dumb Americans willing to pay for this range, who cares what you lot think", then I'd suggest they were taking more than the michael (and not just in VFM terms)!
I agree 100%, Dan. My post had nothing to do with the Newbery Cenkos! Same applies to the Gray-Nicolls Legend. I should have made that more clear. I have just noticed a lot of threads recently where people have gawped at a £300+ price tag for a bat , and this is where I have issues. £300 in modern day terms is a very good price for a top grade cricket bat, especially if it is made in England. Even £400 is becoming normal nowadays. The willow merchants are increasing their prices significantly year after year and with all the other costs being what they are, and knowing from experience how difficult it is to earn a living in this industry, I worry if customers feel they are being ripped off for perfectly reasonable and competitive prices that are there to preserve the homegrown UK cricket industry rather than lining wallets...
-
Find this thread interesting
Just to pickup on what Paul (IJC) as written i had a conversation with a respected batmaker this summer regarding salaries in different trades he told me he spends around 45 hours a week in the workshop and struggles to earn £300 a week profit.
Also there is little mark up on clefts below grade 3 when sold as such.
And hardly an profit in boys bats.
-
I'd imagine like everything it comes down to each individual company. So Paul at IJC obviously has to buy stock, pay rent etc etc. Someone who maybe owns the land already wouldn't have those over heads. So in theory, could charge a lot less but earn the same profit. It'll impact a small brands profit quite a bit I'd imagine if they buy in bats it'll cost them more than someone making them themselves, so have to charge more etc.
-
I can remember paying around £250 for a top of the range newbery 17 years ago. With the increase in fixed costs on bat makers/shops well above inflation in that time, £400 for a top of the range newbery now seems very fair.
-
A very interesting topic reading different peoples views , I have pressed 80 clefts this week ,8 are stressed or cracked during the pressing process , 10% are now wasted and lost through a natural act of god ,who pays for them ? When we buy trees or clefts it's a gamble what's in there , sometimes we win sometimes we lose
Precisely my point - and it still costs the same as a good cleft (power etc.) to find that out.
-
I spoke to a bat maker last week he said the willow prices had been increased by 12.5% for the fifth year in a row. That may explain the boom in bat costs.
-
Well I was thinking the other day of sellng my bats at cost price before overheads (not many from my bedroom) or very close to it so I could make a loss just so I could offset it against my 40% tax rate from work
Bedroom brands are set up for different reasons, pleasure, getting involved in starting a budiness, getting involved in cricket industry or making a loss for tax purposes
Now that has put the cat amongst the pigeons.
-
Clever post John
-
Well I was thinking the other day of sellng my bats at cost price before overheads (not many from my bedroom) or very close to it so I could make a loss just so I could offset it against my 40% tax rate from work
Bedroom brands are set up for different reasons, pleasure, getting involved in starting a budiness, getting involved in cricket industry or making a loss for tax purposes
Now that has put the cat amongst the pigeons.
If you want to make a loss I'll give you £10 for a G1 bat! ;)
-
I can remember paying around £250 for a top of the range newbery 17 years ago. With the increase in fixed costs on bat makers/shops well above inflation in that time, £400 for a top of the range newbery now seems very fair.
you were probably ripped off mate, 17 years ago.
-
you were probably ripped off mate, 17 years ago.
I was thinking the same thing. SPS bats are that price now, let alone 17 years ago!
-
Probably was, but only a little. You have to remember 17 years ago there was not the internet shops, so you had to trust your local cricket shop. Back then newbery and salix were the most expensive bats you could buy. There are now more brands than ever, the high end bat bats made by the bespoke top bat makers in the world I think are well priced.
The cheap to middle range bats made the by the biggest companies in my opinion are now too expensive considering who and where they are making these.
-
Probably was, but only a little. You have to remember 17 years ago there was not the internet shops, so you had to trust your local cricket shop. Back then newbery and salix were the most expensive bats you could buy. There are now more brands than ever, the high end bat bats made by the bespoke top bat makers in the world I think are well priced.
The cheap to middle range bats made the by the biggest companies in my opinion are now too expensive considering who and where they are making these.
Were they?
When someone turned up with their new £400 Newbery tour a couple of seasons ago, someone said:
"Christ, I can remember when Newbery were the bats to have because they were cheaper than all the others"
Not saying you're wrong mate, just heard two contradicting statements on it now.
-
I think if you go back 20+ years they were cheaper, however I can remember everyone certainly in the south east working out all the pro's down here had Salix's or Newbery's just with the larger brands stickers on them for sponsorship reasons. Cue everyone buying these bats and the prices rising dramatically on the top end ones, the lower end ones were good value though.
-
I think if you go back 20+ years they were cheaper, however I can remember everyone certainly in the south east working out all the pro's down here had Salix's or Newbery's just with the larger brands stickers on them for sponsorship reasons. Cue everyone buying these bats and the prices rising dramatically on the top end ones, the lower end ones were good value though.
That may be when he was referring to then! :)
You mention the South East, is that where you play bud??
-
Were they?
When someone turned up with their new £400 Newbery tour a couple of seasons ago, someone said:
"Christ, I can remember when Newbery were the bats to have because they were cheaper than all the others"
Not saying you're wrong mate, just heard two contradicting statements on it now.
Make that three - I bought a Newbery in part because it was a lot cheaper back then than a Fearnley Magnum, Symonds Tusker, GN Scoop or Surridge Jumbo (and because it was more cool)
-
From memory I paid £56 as opposed to £70-ish for any of the others mentioned.