Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Tom on December 22, 2014, 11:21:26 AM
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https://apprenticeshipvacancymatchingservice.lsc.gov.uk/Navms/Forms/Vacancy/VacancyDetails.aspx?Query=r2E1A1wfZQmGteJiDFDCdmi8ICOxvXhgwmZyhFHmuqO3b3S3DmuZSRPSDDxIRWDSDAO4SSVBOu5LWtR3k4KOYwuBGWUg47BUYRSgyFADbRJZCN2qXHsUG%2f6yV7LkpL1N39rEk%2b2MwRt7j1BCu3ny0U2aIzMYrgHNtor1IoaGRhU20qtqhB540bdKp%2bVYA1DnELo8vA4qduwcwpQtkMsJvvVeLIXV%2bUMYPEW75xEz0Nrpe%2bg7ITsSaJ0Wg0XfBp1D%2fQaI5i%2fBVmgA3Rx6%2brzCU4DZ5jn3hLyjMCVMqkQAAKY%3d
Could be interesting for someone.
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Really wish I didn't go to uni and be thus be excluded from chances like this.
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imagine what the xmas bonus wud be...brand spanker m&h ???
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they advertised for an apprentice a few months back. Maybe they didn't get anyone suitable. Good job and something I would recommend for a youngster who doesn't want the debt of university
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Hmmm, 2.5 hour drive each way on a clear run.
Apprentice wages for the first 12 months make it impossible to commute, but still tempted... :(
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ive applied as its around 30/45mins away from me :)
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Maybe a harsh statement but do you need an apprentice to put stickers on pre made bats ?
Like I said maybe harsh as I think they do a little shaping but when I was last there didn't have the machinery to make a bat from start to finish but that was a while ago. Still a great opportunity to get into the industry if the money is good for someone to start on its a excellent link into the world of cricket
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£2.73 per hour, think they'll struggle to get anyone decent for that.
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£2.73 per hour, think they'll struggle to get anyone decent for that.
That's the minimum, when I first started my apprenticeship I got a whole £3.50 an hour!
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The first thing I thought was that £100/week is peanuts
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We all know some businesses use 'apprenticeships' to bypass minimum wage laws - so we shouldn't be surprised if that is the case here. Though I am NOT saying it is.
£100 a week, for most, wouldn't even cover the transport costs - so you would hope it would be more!
M&H making bats from start to finish... Just put it this way, if H4L, Salix, Kippax or Red Ink offered this, you'd give it serious thought. Apart from that... You'd struggle to justify the 'educational relevance', so to speak, relative to the 'whole' bat production process.
Outsourcing is key to the UK manufacturing industry due to labour costs and other overheads not experienced in other economic climates - therefore, they must do this to remain competitive/lower costs.
They shouldn't be punished for this. However, should be when they BLATANTLY LIE about the 'process' they employ. It is a very sticky subject which impacts many sectors, not just bats. Clothing being an obvious example.
IMHO if you want learn the WHOLE process, emigrate to India/Pakistan and you probably could also live quite comfortably off £101.01pw there!
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maybe they want an apprentice so they can start to do the full process in the future once they are competent
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That's the rate these days for an apprentice ,, the company gets funding to take them on, then it's upto the trainee to pull their finger owt, and prove their worth
No good whinging bout it,
If that's all M&H are prepared to offer
The days of decent apprenticeships in abundance are long gone
If your local to Taunton and want that first step into the industry then go for it
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I got more than that when I was 16, more than 17 years ago!
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Strange thread this,m and h don't make bats in the way we understand it? With a press and draw knife?
News to me...what do you get for the bespoke custom made bat then? A round trip to hove/a farm in Kent/a shed in essex?
:)
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I got more than that when I was 16, more than 17 years ago!
Yup I know
I got £125 thirty years ago, some of the other lads on the same first year were earning £200 plus
Heartbreaking for teenagers really,,,the company I work for now, pay apprentices the minimum , yet they do the same work as full qualified bench joiners on £12 an hour.
I'm not sure what millichamp and hall actually make these days, but it's still gotta be a start in the industry?
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Would love to dp it, even if its not quite as good an oportunity as what b3 offered at the start of the year, which i should have applied for.
Sadly not much chance of me movin down to taunton or commuting from Bradford every day
would the wage still be 2.73 an hour for a 24 year old? Does sound like slave labour, but if your keen to get into the industry and learn the skills, then its a small price to pay for a year and you'd just have to deal with it. Probably another part time job to bump up the wage
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Disgraceful really, when they charge as much as they much as they do for their bats.
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Disgraceful really, when they charge as much as they much as they do for their bats.
I think the price of their bats is irrelevant. At least they are offering something, unlike most others atm...
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Disgraceful, whichever way you look at it.
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Maybe a harsh statement but do you need an apprentice to put stickers on pre made bats ?
Like I said maybe harsh as I think they do a little shaping but when I was last there didn't have the machinery to make a bat from start to finish but that was a while ago. Still a great opportunity to get into the industry if the money is good for someone to start on its a excellent link into the world of cricket
I was there two weeks ago and they had quite a lot of machinery in there then...
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Apprenticeships are more than just the pay. There is a whole lot more to them.
Full training and a qualification at the end with on the job knowledge.
It's a very good introduction into work and into the industry for someone keen to do it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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As a college employee and someone responsible for apprentices the problem is and I am not suggesting m&h are going to do it after 2 years many company's finish apprentices and start again.
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Surely this is a positive thing given that even the great Julian Millichamp has aired his worries about the hand bat making craft being a dying art and his efforts to start up an academy sadly was not successful in gaining sufficient funding.
An apprenticeship is a 2 way street, someone young and interested in the industry gets to learn the skills of the job and tasks involved and also gets a small financial benefit from it, whilst the company offering the training gets someone to help out and pass the skills onto hopefully with the aim of moving them through the ranks once they are ready....there is also the chance they get some funding from the gov for taking someone on too 😀
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Apprenticeships are more than just the pay. There is a whole lot more to them.
Full training and a qualification at the end with on the job knowledge.
It's a very good introduction into work and into the industry for someone keen to do it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If run for their primary purpose - that's what is being said here.
Kids are less likely to demand a contract based on SMART objectives leading to permanent employment on completion.
You have to remember this is just people looking for a balanced argument. Who's knows really! The apprentice may end up being a master batmaker one day!
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has anyone actually asked M and H about the job?
until someone has we can't cast aspersions about what a well known brand is doing. if they are paying the going rate based on demand for the jobs then we can't argue.
as far as I am aware there are very few who have become millionaires from pod shaving.
who says all they are doing is stickering up pre mades?
seems a whole lot of accusations here, with little firm evidence. if it is from the reliable mouth of the dark Lord, then we have problems.
personally I know nothing about M and H bats other than the always look great, but are out of my price range. my assumption (as that is what everyone is doing) is that very few people have been into the workshop and asked outright or know the m and H business model, so my suggestion is we don't make stuff up based in heresay from conflicted or unreliable sources. please.
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http://alexanderdavidson.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Millichamp-and-Hall-Workshop/G0000yZPhbixEPaQ/I0000zvbLElL7aAo/C0000mXEFxT4Z9hY (http://alexanderdavidson.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Millichamp-and-Hall-Workshop/G0000yZPhbixEPaQ/I0000zvbLElL7aAo/C0000mXEFxT4Z9hY)
This photo shows just a few of the machines in the workshop
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I think its a great opportunity for someone looking to get into the industry. We all started out as trainees, interns, apprentices, etc on subpar wages, often for large companies with big turnovers.
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As a college employee and someone responsible for apprentices the problem is and I am not suggesting m&h are going to do it after 2 years many company's finish apprentices and start again.
Seems likely.
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Seems likely.
On what grounds?!
Chip, meet shoulder :D
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On what grounds?!
Chip, meet shoulder :D
On the grounds that it is a way of getting (very) cheap labour?
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Yes, I agree.....what are you basing that on?
See answer above.
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It is entirely possible Bats, but I wonder why you are taking this line of argument with such gusto?
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I guess your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
Our two lads are doing very well and loving it and for a cricket mad person the ideal job.
IF i was a young lad i would jump at it no questions £100 quid or not and prove myself worthy at the end just saying like.
Fair play any who take on people the industry is not as glamourious as people think there not many barons out there just people trying to make a living.
They do not have to offer anything out fair play and good luck to the lucky person who gets the job at Millichamp or whoever..
I guess it supply and demand i guarantee people want this position and you don't get anything without hard yakka. So my theory is work hard prove your the deal make it so they can't let you go at the end!!!!
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On the grounds that it is a way of getting (very) cheap labour?
We employ apprentice truck mechanics and have never let one go at the end of the 2 years. The last one had been here 4 years and left to get a job at a main dealer. He walked into the job as his training had been that comprehensive. I'm not 100% sure as to what they get paid though. Saying that every employer only takes on apprentices to take advantage of cheap labour is completely wrong. How would you propose that young people get to learn the skills you can't get in a classroom?
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It is entirely possible Bats, but I wonder why you are taking this line of argument with such gusto?
The right for adults to earn a fair living wage is something everyone should be passionate about.
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IF i was a young lad i would jump at it no questions £100 quid or not and prove myself worthy at the end just saying like.
How would you pay for somewhere to live? Feed yourself? You'd have to rely on your parents?
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It's really aimed at local people, aged around 16 who otherwise would be going to college/6th, hence why it's advertised with a local training agency.
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How would you pay for somewhere to live? Feed yourself? You'd have to rely on your parents?
I would get a 2nd job mate or offer my services on weekends..
My theory is if you want something bad enough you will get it.
We all start at the bottom or at least most do other are offering similar things. I was paid £40 quid a week YTS at a golf club so i learnt to caddy quick and ended up on £200 quid a week.
It a start for somebody it up to them to grab it we live in a nanny state people expect everything on a plate.
Are you unemployed at the minute ? you sound very negative somebody is going to get a chance, It is up to them what they do with that chance....
Agree with Tom either go to collage and earn nothing now maybe more later or take a chance go part to college and learn a trade and get a bit of money.
If i was 16 i would be straight there....
Very limited jobs in the industry and this is target at a audience will not suit all but it is there...
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If you are between 16-20 and go to school how do you feed yourself? Where do you live? With your parents!! These apprenticeships are aimed at young people who want to learn outside of the classroom instead of higher education
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If you are between 16-20 and go to school how do you feed yourself? Where do you live? With your parents!! These apprenticeships are aimed at young people who want to learn outside of the classroom instead of higher education
And if your parents can't afford to support you?
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And if your parents can't afford to support you?
You get a second job.
Can you see no positives at all for a young un?
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And if your parents can't afford to support you?
What when they have afforded to keep you from 0-16??? I paid £40 of my £100/week to my parents for board.
Were you one of the apprentices that got ditched after 2 years perhaps???
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You get a second job.
Can you see no positives at all for a young un?
"It's better than the alternative" seems to be your argument. As is that of all employers not willing to pay a living wage.
We're not even allowed to know if M&H actually make their £450 bats, ffs!
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What when they have afforded to keep you from 0-16??? I paid £40 of my £100/week to my parents for board.
Were you one of the apprentices that got ditched after 2 years perhaps???
No, I wasn't. I have a degree and a trade.
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I would get a 2nd job mate or offer my services on weekends..
My theory is if you want something bad enough you will get it.
We all start at the bottom or at least most do other are offering similar things. I was paid £40 quid a week YTS at a golf club so i learnt to caddy quick and ended up on £200 quid a week.
It a start for somebody it up to them to grab it we live in a nanny state people expect everything on a plate.
Are you unemployed at the minute ? you sound very negative somebody is going to get a chance, It is up to them what they do with that chance....
Agree with Tom either go to collage and earn nothing now maybe more later or take a chance go part to college and learn a trade and get a bit of money.
If i was 16 i would be straight there....
Very limited jobs in the industry and this is target at a audience will not suit all but it is there...
I complete agree with this comment. I spend most weeks talking to other staff/businesses about kids who will end up NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training).
There has been a culture, which comes from government level, which has led kids becoming completely disaffected with education - and rightly so.
As a teacher, I get annoyed with subjects, including my own at times, which have no barring in industries which these kids my go into.
Also, don't get me started on the lack of funding which stops certain students picking up the skills they need to survive in the real world. Not everyone wants to study for years and pick up tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt so they can become a teacher or a lawyer. Some people ACTUALLY want to become plumbers, electricians etc. A message I believe has been lost over the last 10 years - so I think YTS/apprenticeships are the right way to go. (Funnily enough, this loss of focus has actually made UKIP popular in some constituencies - skills gaps filled by 'eastern europeans'!)
HOWEVER, it is amazing how many businesses moan that they can't get kids with the right skills, moan about the state of education in the UK then when you ask them about running apprenticeships, they turn around and say 'Well it isn't our responsibility' or stall and make up an excuse using the state of the current economic climate!
At least M&H have put their money where their mouth is!
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I see the festive spirit is in short supply
When all is said and done if I was from Taunton and 16-18 and seen this I would have applied yesterday
It might seem like peanuts to those of us that are grown up now (and I use that term very loosely) but to people straight out of school you can live on 100 pw in relative luxury - I certainly could at that age! A couple of evenings of bar work or weekend work and you're virtually a young Tony Montana
Best of luck to those that apply
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I don't think anyone was disputing that apprenticeships are a good idea.
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At least M&H have put their money where their mouth is!
Just not very much of it?
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Just not much of it?
This is also true.
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This is also true.
I wonder how much they invested in Craig Kieswetter?
Who buys a bat because Craig Kieswetter uses it/ the same stickers?
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100 notes a week to a 16 year old almost certainly living at home. If you love your cricket bats it's a dream job.
I'm pretty sure they're planning for the future here, as I know Nick left last year and Rob's been flat out.
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So are you suggesting that a business should directly base the rates of pay of its workforce on the mark up it puts on its products?
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So are you suggesting that a business should directly base the rates of pay of its workforce on the mark up it puts on its products?
In an ideal world, yes, they might be related - profit would belong to the people that achieved it.
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In an ideal world, yes, they might be related - profit would belong to the people that achieved it.
Strategically or Manually..
Management or Worker???
All i see is some young cad is going to get a chance many would like to do.. We should be happy people are taking on
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The mark up isn't the profit. You've got to take the costs off and the overheads. What you say is never going to happen, the person running/owning the business takes all the risks therefore they should get more of the reward. If the business made a loss would the employees give money back under your system?
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All i see is some young cad...
Yes, I know.
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The mark up isn't the profit. You've got to take the costs off and the overheads. What you say is never going to happen, the person running/owning the business takes all the risks therefore they should get more of the reward. If the business made a loss would the employees give money back under your system?
I don't remember saying people should all be paid the same.
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'Profit would belong to the people that achieved it' were your words. Surely it would go both ways, the losses would also belong to the same people.
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'Profit would belong to the people that achieved it' were your words. Surely it would go both ways, the losses would also belong to the same people.
They would be out of a job, so yes?
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Not necessarily, lots of businesses go through times when they make losses. They don't all go bust. If you do monthly accounts you could see how you have done each month.
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Not necessarily, lots of businesses go through times when they make losses. They don't all go bust. If you do monthly accounts you could see how you have done each month.
Of course. I wasn't suggesting monthly/ weekly/ daily adjustments of pay. You know I wasn't.
But, ultimately, if profit isn't being made, then the business won't survive.
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At the end of the day a well respected bat maker, and they do make their own bats, is offering a young person an opportunity. the wages are low but that should ensure they attract someone who genuinely wants to go into this industry. also, they know nothing and until they are trained need heaps of supervision. The training will take a long time and mean that the experts have to show the apprentice how do do things. this means that their output is compromised.
We should applaud M and H for actually wanting to employ someone and keeping the craft of bat making in the UK. In my experience employers keep on all apprenticing who are any good as the cost of training them is so high.
Is it better to get paid £100 a week and get excellent training that could lead to a fulfilling career or go to uni, get a 2:2 in drama (or equally pointless field) and come out unemployed, unemployable and a debt of 20 grand? If my son/daughter wanted to do it I would back them. The discounted bats would come in handy too.
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And that's the risk, hence the profit being the reward. No one will set up a business, take all the risk and give the employees all a share of the profit because if everything goes tits up they just walk away and get a job somewhere else. The owner is left with the mess.
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At the end of the day a well respected bat maker, and they do make their own bats, is offering a young person an opportunity. the wages are low but that should ensure they attract someone who genuinely wants to go into this industry. also, they know nothing and until they are trained need heaps of supervision. The training will take a long time and mean that the experts have to show the apprentice how do do things. this means that their output is compromised.
We should applaud M and H for actually wanting to employ someone and keeping the craft of bat making in the UK. In my experience employers keep on all apprenticing who are any good as the cost of training them is so high.
Is it better to get paid £100 a week and get excellent training that could lead to a fulfilling career or go to uni, get a 2:2 in drama (or equally pointless field) and come out unemployed, unemployable and a debt of 20 grand? If my son/daughter wanted to do it I would back them. The discounted bats would come in handy too.
Why is drama pointless? You wouldn't back your son/ daughter if they had a talent for acting?
Their output is compromised by having an extra pair of hands for £100 a week? Do me a favour!
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just walk away and get a job somewhere else.
Salix?
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We have apprentices at our place. They get a decent whack too(for an apprentice) 10k a year and yearly pay rise appraisals.
Now, the majority we have are 16/17 and in my opinion. Most are not ready to work properly. There still in the school mentality. And it take a quite sometime for them to mature into what I'd class as worker. Ones able to do the job we do on there own and not unsupervised.
The lesser wage is apt for these(compared to us technicians that re fully trained and experience.
Then there the odd apprentice we take on In there 20s. They hit the ground running! Give the, 3-4 weeks training and there just like any other non apprentice new starter. They can pretty much do the job, and on there own.
These I'd class as under paid on the 10k a year, and deserve closer to us. But they'll never get it until 3 years has past.
Thankfully for all apprentices we are a big company with room for them, I've not known an apprentice yet that hasn't been offered a roll at the end of there scheme.
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That seems reasonable, smilley.
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Salix?
I was talking generally but whoever you want
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Can we now take it your not applying @Bats_Entertainment
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I was talking generally but whoever you want
But you have chosen cricket bat making as a career and embarked on a lowly paid apprenticeship? Your options are quite limited, you'd have to agree?
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Can we now take it your not applying @Bats_Entertainment
I would have loved this job when I was 16. But that's not really the point.
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So no skill is transferable? You couldn't use your shaping skills in cabinet making or use you experience with the machinery to get a job in a joiners shop making windows?
Or you could start your own firm, put massive mark ups on your products, take on apprentices for £200/wk and share all your profits with the workforce!! Because the way your trying to make out, it's that easy
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When I did my apprenticeship there is no doubt I made everyone else work slower, particularly in the beginning. Kids out Of school are not ready for work, a good career should mean job satisfaction and not the accumulation of wealth. The fact that many people who have commented on this thread and claimed they would have love this opportunity when they were young proves that. Paul Aldred would appear to love what he does.
In my view drama is not a good degree to take. Look at the employment rates for those students after they graduate.
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So no skill is transferable? You couldn't use your shaping skills in cabinet making or use you experience with the machinery to get a job in a joiners shop making windows?
Or you could start your own firm, put massive mark ups on your products, take on apprentices for £200/wk and share all your profits with the workforce!! Because the way your trying to make out, it's that easy
Every business shares it's profits with it's workforce by paying their wages. It's the extent to which it should do so that we are disputing, I think.
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75% of the universities in the UK are a waste of time.
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The wages get paid way before the profit is made. The wages are all part of the running costs of the business, the workforce doesn't get paid out of the profits.
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75% of the universities in the UK are a waste of time.
Yes, all the people at those Universities should be trained to make cricket bats. Who knows, they might even find employment if they are prepared to work cheaply enough?
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75% of the universities in the UK are a waste of time.
And 100% are a waste off money!
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And 100% are a waste off money!
Crumbs!
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The wages get paid way before the profit is made. The wages are all part of the running costs of the business, the workforce doesn't get paid out of the profits.
Wages impact profits. You know what I was saying.
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This thread is really starting to grate on me I'm afraid - can we just stop all of the nonsense and get back to the actual topic?
At the end of the day, regardless of the reasons for M&H taking on the apprentice, at least they're offering it - yes the pay is rubbish but it's not designed to be a well paid job - it's to enable someone to learn some valuable skills which they can take into the real world. I've been very lucky personally in being able to go through school/college/uni with ease and landing myself into a good job - for others it isn't this easy and I applaud M&H for at least giving someone a chance. Really wish this forum wasn't so cynical at times.
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To be honest, there will be a number of 16 year olds who would do this for free, I suspect.
I would have if I was 16 and able to stay in school too.
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can we just stop all of the nonsense and get back to the actual topic?
The actual topic is 'M&H Apprenticeship in Batmaking'.
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This thread is really starting to grate on me I'm afraid - can we just stop all of the nonsense and get back to the actual topic?
At the end of the day, regardless of the reasons for M&H taking on the apprentice, at least they're offering it - yes the pay is rubbish but it's not designed to be a well paid job - it's to enable someone to learn some valuable skills which they can take into the real world. I've been very lucky personally in being able to go through school/college/uni with ease and landing myself into a good job - for others it isn't this easy and I applaud M&H for at least giving someone a chance. Really wish this forum wasn't so cynical at times.
Yes, it is human nature to be suspicious of things. Especially when something appears to be one thing but can turn out to be something else - I have learnt this from drunken nights out... And have, some of the time, regretted the fact that I did not look at things with rose tinted glasses on.
One mans cynical is another mans careful.
My point in this whole discussion should remain as an analysis point for the person looking for a balanced view - "Yes - on paper this looks like a great opportunity HOWEVER greater clarification needs to be sought over the exact role and wording within the contract".
Many of us know what, what M&H have appeared to be in the past, is not necessarily who they are in the present.
However, who knows what the strategic direction the Business will take - either way, it's always good to be educated on these matters so people can go in with their eyes wide open.
Last thing you want is an 18yo who has spent the last two years learning to make tea, sweep floors and apply stickers with not a lot else.
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Echo Neon's comments. After all, this is the season of good will.
(http://i.giphy.com/3SE7PP71RqQDu.gif)
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75% of the universities in the UK are a waste of time.
Reeeeeally now? I didn't go to one of the top 25% of universities, my degree still got me into a well-paid job that I wouldn't have been able to get without it - clearly not a waste of time! Or money, the extra amount I will earn over my career will be a hell of a lot more than I paid for my education. I'd say that's a good result for me? Degree choice is far more important than the university you attend.
As for this apprenticeship, sounds like a great opportunity for a kid living locally. Pay isn't great, sure, but for an apprentice is pretty much never is. Learning a trade while earning a little money and with the potential opportunity to make a career in the company when you're ready will be a great move instead of college for plenty of people. Don't see any reason for people to suggest that's not what M&H are offering, that's what apprenticeships are meant for after all! Maybe the lucky apprentice can shape that chip out of your shoulder once they've been trained up.
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A 1st at tin pot Uni is like a 2:2 at a proper one.
For every person who gets a good job from a lesser university there are 10 who don't get one. This is reversed in the top universities.
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A 1st at tin pot Uni is like a 2:2 at a proper one.
For every person who gets a good job from a lesser university there are 10 who don't get one. This is reversed in the top universities.
Never heard so much rubbish in my life - I'm sat in an office where the majority of people are on well over £100k, none of them went to top universities and most got 2:2s! - Our MD, on over £750k, is a 2:2 grad from a uni ranked in the 70s.
What counts nowadays is your CV, something that sets you apart from the rest - for me that was Neon, and that's probably the reason my 2:1 from Swansea has landed me this job along with a number of offers from some of the major graduate schemes in the UK (and most of them demanded a first).
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That's utter rubbish. If you do a degree in fine art, then sure, but that doesn't apply to all courses at all universities. I studied engineering at a 'lesser' university and everyone (and I mean every single person) who graduated in my year from my course got themselves an engineering job within 6 months of leaving, whatever grade they got.
Just looked it up and the official employment rate for my subject is 91%, compared to 92% at the local Russell Group uni, i.e. it doesn't make any difference to your employment prospects which one you attend.
Don't know what you have against universities, and ok you can say there are particular degrees out there that aren't 'worth it', but don't go slating the whole system for no good reason.
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GarrettJ does have a point If anyones interested take a look at and compare individual univerisity graduate employment percentages.