Without naming other brands, think of kit which is similar, but costs more, that the forum raved about! That was my point. Not cheap, but exceptional value for money!
CBD
Without naming other brands, think of kit which is similar, but costs more, that the forum raved about! That was my point. Not cheap, but exceptional value for money!
CBD
I think these look awesome, the effort that has obviously been put into the design is definitely worth it!! I'm a fan of plain softs, just got the B&S ones that are a similar style but a lot plainer. As for price, if they are £20 more expensive than a different set its only the price of a takeaway.
I'm a fat git, so for me it's a no brainier to get the cheaper gloves and spend the difference on a ruby murray!
The problem with lairy coloured softs is that if you have 20 bats (which should be a minimum after a year on the forum) then you are going to get clashes between stickers and softs. If you have quite plain softs then you can take whichever bat from the collection and still look good getting a duck ;)
You could go the other way and find the brightest gloves and pads you can (preferably in totally different colours) so no matter what bat you use you'd look like a peacock that got caught in a nuclear explosion :D
Where do I start?
Phantom is not a sticker brand! Do you call Kookaburra a sticker brand? Slazenger? Sure they don't make their bats, but they are so so much more, and the number of times I've read that has made me want to tear my hear out!
Can you elaborate on the "so so much more" is to the uninformed please?
And if you do tear your hair out we expect at least pictures, preferably a video! ;)
In reply to the claim they aren't different. Eh? Didn't you read my post. The carbon detailing, the extra split on the last two fingers, the u splits, the smaller top hat on the pads, the larger side wing on the pads etc etc. That seems very different!
I think there is only so much you can change with gloves and pads. You did explain the differences, but a quick glance at any pair of gloves or pads and they'd look similar. The differences you listed are in the "micro detail" which isn't obviously apparent having just a quick look. We are all guilty on the forum of not reading posts, just looking at pictures and hitting reply, I think that's the case here.
I just find it interesting how everyone raved about the H4L custom range - which is an incredible range, and no one really mentioned the price there, despite them being MORE EXPENSIVE. That is what seems a little bit strange to me!
We are a strange bunch on here, I think anyone who spends any amount of time on here will vouch for that :D
Where do I start?
Phantom is not a sticker brand! Do you call Kookaburra a sticker brand? Slazenger? Sure they don't make their bats, but they are so so much more, and the number of times I've read that has made me want to tear my hear out!
In reply to the claim they aren't different. Eh? Didn't you read my post. The carbon detailing, the extra split on the last two fingers, the u splits, the smaller top hat on the pads, the larger side wing on the pads etc etc. That seems very different!
I just find it interesting how everyone raved about the H4L custom range - which is an incredible range, and no one really mentioned the price there, despite them being MORE EXPENSIVE. That is what seems a little bit strange to me!
Ok I will elaborate.
The difference, we feel, between sticker uppers and a company like Phantom or Kooks, Slazenger is about control over the whole process.
We stocked sticker upper bats in the past - Mars, CP, Piri Piri etc. And they didn't have any control over the manufacturing process. They could request some very generic shapes and then have a huge batch made up, and simply sticker them up, as the name suggests.
However, Phantom has complete control. This is evidenced by the close working relationship with the bat maker, for example at short notice they produced a run of fuller Illusion bats, a change in shape mid season for a limited batch of only ten or so, which other companies could not do. They also offer fully custom bats, something which many sticker up brands simply cannot do.
Phantom designs everything about the bats, the stickers, chooses the grips, the shapes, absolutely everything. I don't see why because they don't make them they are intrinsically any worse, or worthy of less support, as has been suggested? Surely, having an established and world-renowned bat maker making the bats is only a good thing? Especially as Phantom are open about the whole thing.
My point being, they have control over everything. Literally the only thing they don't do is make the bats. And I don't think that's a bad thing whatsoever.
Yes, but they are micro details, which is proof that they are different from a lot of brands. Most brands like you said just get stock designs off softs manufacturers. Phantom don't. And I've given evidence of that.
Yes a strange, and I would say unfair, bunch we are. Just seems harsh to me to not even mention the price of other gloves, and rave about them, when a very similar, some would say better, glove comes on here and is cheaper. It seems some people have let their views about the brand sway their opinion of what are simply incredible softs!
CBD.
As you know I really like phantom bats and their softs do look very good and the quality will be first class the one thing I would say I feel they copy a lot off their range on others like the stickers was very close to affinity cricket and now the softs very similar to h4l gear it would be nice for them to have maybe their own designs rather than copying others I know they tweaked the design but are still very close to others
Just Playing devil's advocate here, how is changing the split from a V shape to a U shape different to changing the colour?
Is it not the same principal, taking the design of an existing glove and making small changes so they are your own...
Hanif, if you're charging 70pounds on gloves and making very small profit margins, I would say there is something wrong with your business model. Either that or I would ask how you define "small margins".
Two things here:-
1. If the gloves are sold to retailers then there is a % on a %. If the gloves cost £30 to manufacture, then for Phantom to make any money they will stick a margin on and sell at £50 to the retailers who then stick there margin on. I'm exaggerating here but you get the idea it might be £50 cost, £55 for phantom to the retailers and £70 retail, by the time vat is taken then small profits are a few pounds.
2. As a consequence Phantom will "hold" their prices at retailer prices - therefore making a decent profit.
What the retailers make is determined by Phantom, the cost of the glove and what margin the retailer can afford to make, presumably below RRP.
the cost of the glove.
I'm sure you can buy blanks at OLS for alot less but the cost of branding and the other touches will mean you couldn't get the same glove.
Attractive kit yes, attractive pricing? Not for me. Can think of far more attractive things to spend £160 on :D :o
You can get 5 lap dances and 2 drinks on a Saturday night for that!
Apparently.... :-[
I just spotted this picture in the for sale section, I think I'll just leave it here... ;)
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Is there really anything different that can be done with softs? Most ideas have been done and when your to extreme or away from the norm. Every Mong will claim that they'll get sledged and have to cry themselves to sleep at night.
Put in the fact they've gone for a clean whit Elohim. They look like another 100 pair off gloves out there on the market. BORING!!
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Hello everybody!
It's been a while since I posted on here - been busy with other things as you might have noticed ;). I must admit, I have resisted replying to this thread before as this is after all a place to form and share opinions - so keep them coming.
Now, I have to say this is not intended to be a defensive post by any means (sometimes the written tone can come across that way). I am not adverse to a bit of criticism - however, most if not all of the much loved brands on the forum could be painted with the same brush when it comes to softs - but they're not!
The Salix gloves is an exact copy of the SS Gladiator from a few years back with a change in colour scheme - look it up!
These gloves also look familiar don't you think?!
([url]http://www.cricketequipmentusa.com/content/images/thumbs/0001911_ss_cricket_batting_gloves_gladiator_pro_9_by_sunridges.jpeg[/url])
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That is not to say small brands don't experiment or try new things (I certainly do), but the majority go with a colour variations of existing designs as the running of a brand is pretty involved so doing development year on year means something has to give elsewhere. The rest is down to costs and timing. The logistics of releasing products (on this occasion delayed due to experimenting with new designs) means that the general public often get to see one product sooner than the other which contributes to the opinion they form about it (as well as their existing association with the other brand).
Innovation in this industry is virtually nonexistent, change is often reactive rather than proactive. Occasionally someone sticks their head above the parapet only for it to be shot at. Those willing to be different also have to accept the high chances of failure - now given the costs involved in R&D, that could potentially break a small brand. The majority of the market wants something familiar, the small proportion who don't are not usually worth the investment. The general public don't have an appreciation for the pitfalls and challenges when dealing with manufacturers abroad (some highlighted by Tom) - often the limitations are not in the minds of the brands, but the ability/ willingness of the manufacturer. In short, there is far more to this than meets the eye.
It may come as no surprise to some of you that (with the exception of some), small brands often talk to each other - they share experiences, tips, tricks, suppliers, etc etc. and are probably less concerned about brands sharing designs than the people on here. (despite his link to Affinity, Tom has been the voice of reason here).
Price will always be difficult to convince customers on but anyone making a comparison between buying an unseen, unbranded product direct from India versus being able to touch and feel a product at a local retail store simply does not understand the logistics involved. Customers are also willing to place a value on a trusted relationship with a retailer - as an example, customers place pre-orders for Phantom products through ItsJustCricket when they can just as easily do it through Phantom directly. Customers want to buy these products from local retailers and therefore the price point has to take into consideration a number of factors - not least that sometimes financial loss is difficult to predict (replacement of damaged items/ loss in transit/ theft). Financial investment and margin structures vary massively between suppliers and retailers too therefore comparisons are difficult.
Anyone who has attempted to do this before will know that starting a brand is the easy part, running a brand is demanding but the true test is in making a brand a successful and viable business. I have the utmost respect for all brands but in particular small successful brands - their challenge is not just the big brands but also the perceptions of customers who often only see a fraction of the effort that has gone into getting a product on a shelf.
Phantom have only just started on this journey and we are most certainly not claiming to know it all or be better than anyone else.
Thanks for reading.
Let's not talk in riddles as its a forum and we're all grown ups, it's a design that Affinity used for the split finger gloves.Ahhh! I see the similarity, one or two fairly major changes on the Affinity ones though. Makes me think I should have bought them instead of the Pumas (which I got recently)! The curse of matching your kit ha.
As discussed in my post earlier post rarely will a smaller boutique brand have a completely original glove design due to the aforementioned reasons.
With the nature of the cricket market softs will always be from a limited number of factories as brands want a certain degree of quality only some can offer at a price point that's viable.
These gloves also look familiar don't you think?!
([url]http://www.cricketequipmentusa.com/content/images/thumbs/0001911_ss_cricket_batting_gloves_gladiator_pro_9_by_sunridges.jpeg[/url])
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If the straps can be revolutionised like remove velcro all together and introduce a knob (haha) to twist them tight like some trainers , the high price wont be an issue
Tom - agreed with you. I just think it personally grates on myself when people who have no knowledge of the industry are making sweeping comments and critical analysis over something they know very little about.All you can do in Life is try your best be Proud of what you do and who you Represent ILC seem to tick all the Boxes don't let the 0.01 percent weigh you down Life is too Short
The forum makes up 0.01% of the market at most, with very few people actually buying the mainstream brands over the Red Ink, B3 competition etc, and compare that to the time we sponsors etc take to post on it, it can become a little bit tiring to only hear criticism and negativity.
With gloves specifically, the Phantom gloves are not a copy of any glove. Many other gloves which have been heralded on this forum are. Many brands , which are loved by the forum, develop their own products far less than Phantom. And yet here I am every week defending them from people who know very little to nothing about margins, prices, manufacturers, retailers etc etc.
I completely agree that you cannot massively redevelop anything - there is a reason many offerings are subtle tweaks on other pre-existing ideas. What does bother me though is people accusing Phantom of just copying others, when I can give evidence of this not being the case, and further evidence of other brands literally just copying and changing the colours, only for them to be held up as an example of innovation. It all just seems a little unfair, and difficult for people to understand why Phantom comes under this criticism whereas other brands don't?
CBD
Come and watch my team on a Saturday, you'll see plenty of knobs twisting their gloves...Hahaha......nice one!
So much as phantom being their own brand and not copying others I honestly now think the are taking the p**s now all I see now is someone who doesn't have his own ideas and thinks it a good way of coping others ([url]http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r659/Simonalfie5/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/Simonalfie5/media/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg.html[/url])
So??
Does it really matter if people copy?? No one forces us to buy the 'copies'.. Although, if you can get exactly the same as brand x but cheaper...then boom!! (Nb.. I have no idea if it is or not)
Good luck to them, if they choose to take the best of the rest then maybe it means a nicer branding for customers, also saves them time, which is money... Win win
Imagine owning a said brand and everything you do was copied you spent hard work design stickers and softs etc just for phantom to take the easy route and copy which to me is just taking the p**s as it seems whatever h4l do they will copy just feel sorry for all the hard work that Matt and Adam put in just to have their softs and now names of bats copied by phantom
I might start my own brand called Fantom Cricket.
I'll sell TK made bats with Affinity esque stickers.
I'll do 4 off the shelf called the Darc Edition, the 'llusion, the Shadows and the T20 Sprite. I might then do a bespoke one called the Customs that's a stock shape that you get different stickers on.
It will be 100% original though, I'll draw up some concepts and backdate them to 2010 to prove I did it first ;)
I might start my own brand called Fantom Cricket.
Maybe a brand called "blown out of proportion"
You could do a line called "knickers in a twist" and one called "toys out of pram"
They're just silly names now!Copy Lathe would be more appropriate.
I might buy a CNC machine and start a brand called B4U
Will go for minimal stickers and provide every customer a custom made pro experience. I'm.sure nobody would accuse me of stealing that idea...
So much as phantom being their own brand and not copying others I honestly now think the are taking the p**s now all I see now is someone who doesn't have his own ideas and thinks it a good way of coping others ([url]http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r659/Simonalfie5/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/Simonalfie5/media/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg.html[/url])
Thankfully Cam phantom haven't seen my short (No Swearing Please) sloping shoulder dwarf bat yet. We can still corner the market in unique designs.
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Agree about the gold, not for me. Like with the conversation about the softs, are that many of these even going to get sold? I bet I don't see many this season
They're just silly names now!Psh, I'm moving to Sussex, changing my name to Tom Keyley and starting a white label bat manufacturing centre... then just wait for the millions to roll in!
I might buy a CNC machine and start a brand called B4U
Will go for minimal stickers and provide every customer a custom made pro experience. I'm.sure nobody would accuse me of stealing that idea...
Can't see tk offering a bespoke service any time soon can you mate
Imagine owning a said brand and everything you do was copied you spent hard work design stickers and softs etc just for phantom to take the easy route and copy which to me is just taking the p**s as it seems whatever h4l do they will copy just feel sorry for all the hard work that Matt and Adam put in just to have their softs and now names of bats copied by phantom
It would have to be expensive to be worth his while!
Apple do something similar and no one complains.
One thing for sure it would be very expensive and I am pretty sure that it's something Tim has not got time to do that's for sureIf he wants to run a business surely you should be looking at doing these things?
If he wants to run a business surely you should be looking at doing these things?
There is another way of looking at it.......
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!
So much as phantom being their own brand and not copying others I honestly now think the are taking the p**s now all I see now is someone who doesn't have his own ideas and thinks it a good way of coping others ([url]http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r659/Simonalfie5/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://s1360.photobucket.com/user/Simonalfie5/media/image_zpsvkmug6wc.jpeg.html[/url])
It's a forum Dave
A place to discuss and inform
The North South divide even extends to the forum, I'm a proud Northerner who loves a good ale, eats black pudding and talks reet funny like marra. :D
I'm secretly from the south and am merely masquerading as a big hairy northerner, where did I put my shandy? :DShandy? you mean wine!
Shandy? you mean wine!
No because I actually really like wine and therefore unwilling to make a joke about it haha :DHahaha Wine is the blood of Satan, the moment it touches my tongue my face contorts into weird and frankly scary positions all of which I can only assume to be the work of Beelzebub himself. The creators of wine must (to my knowledge) be masochists, Beer trumps all other beverages in its taste, complexity, variety, colour, bouquet and its ability to go down so easily like you're drinking the nectar of the Gods!
Cucumber sandwich @northernboy1987 ?? My round plus I will de-crust them before serving?
Hahaha Wine is the blood of Satan, the moment it touches my tongue my face contorts into weird and frankly scary positions all of which I can only assume to be the work of Beelzebub himself. The creators of wine must (to my knowledge) be masochists, Beer trumps all other beverages in its taste, complexity, variety, colour, bouquet and its ability to go down so easily like you're drinking the nectar of the Gods!
Perhaps it's worth starting off by explaining why the "Custom" label has come about. It's no secret I don't make my own bats because I am very open about this. It doesn't take a genius to work out who does (but by all means give yourselves a pat on the back).
As a small set up, 99% of the bats offered are in regular short handle (it's the most common ask) however EVERY single bat ever sold under the Phantom brand has been made to order to my exact shapes, weights, etc not a single bat has been picked from pre-mades. This means I can (and do) make tweaks or complete changes to the shapes.
I often get requests for bats that are longer blades or handles, with higher/ lower middles changes to existing shapes or a copy of a much loved old faithful. All of these are accommodated but it's never really been marketed, until now.
So under the Custom option, the customer gets to choose from something straightforward as the size of handle right across to sending in a bat for an exact copy and therefore their bat will be 'made to order' (too long to fit on a label as a name), 'modified from an existing shape' (doesn't sounds right that) or custom-made ah! thats the one! It sums up exactly what the bat is about. The other name considered was bespoke but thats more suited to garments and tailoring - also is somewhat misleading.
What's unique (or not commonly done) about the Phantom service is that two bats can be bought together to the same specs first in a higher grade for matches and the second a lower grade which is much cheaper for practice.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It seems everyone thinks they know the inside leg measurement of the said bat maker but as someone who spends a fair amount of time with him on a regular basis, I can confirm much of the loose talk about him on this forum has no basis.
So is this a custom service damn right it is! Why don't others who use the same bat maker offer it? I couldn't tell you perhaps in their wisdom they just don't want the hassle.
Re: Softs, it seems my previous post has fallen on deaf ears. These are not H4L designs end of!
I have never forced anyone to buy a Phantom bat however anyone who has felt particularly obliged to buy one for threat to their sheer existence, I am happy for you to return the bat for a full refund.
That includes you Simon for when you met me and bought three bats, with the same current branding and labels you were fine with it. To this end you recently said to me on email that the Shadow Players you have is a gun. If it's just the labels you are unhappy about you're welcome to remove them from the bat and return the set you bought only as recently as a couple of weeks ago.
That includes you Simon for when you met me and bought three bats, with the same current branding and labels you were fine with it. To this end you recently said to me on email that the Shadow Players you have is a gun. If it's just the labels you are unhappy about you're welcome to remove them from the bat and return the set you bought only as recently as a couple of weeks ago.
Perhaps it's worth starting off by explaining why the "Custom" label has come about. It's no secret I don't make my own bats because I am very open about this. It doesn't take a genius to work out who does (but by all means give yourselves a pat on the back).
As a small set up, 99% of the bats offered are in regular short handle (it's the most common ask) however EVERY single bat ever sold under the Phantom brand has been made to order to my exact shapes, weights, etc not a single bat has been picked from pre-mades. This means I can (and do) make tweaks or complete changes to the shapes.
I often get requests for bats that are longer blades or handles, with higher/ lower middles changes to existing shapes or a copy of a much loved old faithful. All of these are accommodated but it's never really been marketed, until now.
So under the Custom option, the customer gets to choose from something straightforward as the size of handle right across to sending in a bat for an exact copy and therefore their bat will be 'made to order' (too long to fit on a label as a name), 'modified from an existing shape' (doesn't sounds right that) or custom-made ah! thats the one! It sums up exactly what the bat is about. The other name considered was bespoke but thats more suited to garments and tailoring - also is somewhat misleading.
What's unique (or not commonly done) about the Phantom service is that two bats can be bought together to the same specs first in a higher grade for matches and the second a lower grade which is much cheaper for practice.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It seems everyone thinks they know the inside leg measurement of the said bat maker but as someone who spends a fair amount of time with him on a regular basis, I can confirm much of the loose talk about him on this forum has no basis.
So is this a custom service damn right it is! Why don't others who use the same bat maker offer it? I couldn't tell you perhaps in their wisdom they just don't want the hassle.
Re: Softs, it seems my previous post has fallen on deaf ears. These are not H4L designs end of!
I have never forced anyone to buy a Phantom bat however anyone who has felt particularly obliged to buy one for threat to their sheer existence, I am happy for you to return the bat for a full refund.
That includes you Simon for when you met me and bought three bats, with the same current branding and labels you were fine with it. To this end you recently said to me on email that the Shadow Players you have is a gun. If it's just the labels you are unhappy about you're welcome to remove them from the bat and return the set you bought only as recently as a couple of weeks ago.
Correction on your statement regarding others are not offering bespoke service who use the same bat maker. I believe Blank bats offer as well as we have done quite a few for our customers
You may accuse me of being a bit slow but, who does make Phantom bats?