Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Contrails on November 02, 2016, 08:24:42 PM
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Oh jeez, not another topic on Low Density Willow!
Me and a friend were having a discussion on various topics including cricket bats and the topic of Low Density willow came up. He has a couple of CA bats - the typical over dried stuff. But my word, one particular bat he has (15000) has lovely grains and performance to match!
He made a very good point and hence leads to my query - what's the difference other than the obvious, a cleft that has been over dried vs one that has natural lower density?
Second - a lower density willow should be available in different grades or do Bat makers class lower dense willow straight away into the top grade regardless of the looks?
Regards
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The natural lower density willow should last longer
2 As its Natural low density willow it would be top grade
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Their huge difference between over dried and low density lots of people claim to have them but from what I have seen they are very rare and are premium willow who wouldn't want a bat with 50mm edges at 2.11 😀
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Low density is for a bigger bat in a lighter weight which produces a placebo effect.
@Seniorplayer has it nailed on its head.
I know what over drying a cleft does and doesn't do.
A low density cleft just gives you a bigger bat at lower weight.
Over dried gives it a soft pressed feel which some swear by.
There a reason why a lot of Asian bats go well from the start but die quicker.
People think soft pressed but the same feel and look also include over dried/naturally dried due to local climate.
Most lower density from custom makers is swalloped up by pro on the cadge paying usual RRP.
@hell4leather cricket they get and cut there own trees be a good question for them to answer on what they get in low density
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I have CAs, a bunch of them. Where I live, we have a lot of moisture in the air and bats gain weight. I know atleast one of my CAs gained weight. Did it impact it performance? No. It goes like a train. The oldest one is 4 seasons old. It has usual cracks and delamination issues that some other old (made in England) bats have. Also, I have not seen any degradation in performance. Other players in my team who have CAs have broken bats after a few seasons but they also didn't take care of their bats post season. In our state, I see a lot of people using very old (older than 10 years) CA bats but you can tell that those bats have been taken care of (oiling, sanding etc.).
I will take a CA that pings over a full of moisture (and suds) hard pressed bat that just never goes anywhere for a (long and miserable) year.
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I have CAs, a bunch of them. Where I live, we have a lot of moisture in the air and bats gain weight. I know atleast one of my CAs gained weight. Did it impact it performance? No. It goes like a train. The oldest one is 4 seasons old. It has usual cracks and delamination issues that some other old (made in England) bats have. Also, I have not seen any degradation in performance. Other players in my team who have CAs have broken bats after a few seasons but they also didn't take care of their bats post season. In our state, I see a lot of people using very old (older than 10 years) CA bats but you can tell that those bats have been taken care of (oiling, sanding etc.).
I will take a CA that pings over a full of moisture (and suds) hard pressed bat that just never goes anywhere for a (long and miserable) year.
MMM interesting is that aimed at me ????
I rate Asian as much as English, I was just stating a fact from bats not actually getting into specifics about who makes what and how makes better.
Was talking overdried over low density mate.
I struggle to find these bats that take a year to play in though
@InternalTraining you still after balls I have around 30 of them in good condition....
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Mother Nature determines the density of each cleft , however it all depends on soil types and areas where they are grown . I cut a batch of old trees in late March which are stunning but most are heavier , the next batch of trees from about 15 miles away , cut in early June most are coming out low density ? Species and ground conditions play a major role . All dried the same way
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How often do you come across proper low density willow @hell4leather cricket ? I am lead to believe it is rare.
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Very rare , but depends if you want perfect looks and low density or 5 grains ,marks on the face and low density ? Would you pay say £500 because I said it was low density and looks terrible?
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Good question. In all honesty, I wouldn't pay 500 for a terrible looking bat even if the willow was the best performing cleft on the market. IMO, I would associate paying 500 for a premium bat in looks and performance. But everyone is different. A pro might see things differently.
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MMM interesting is that aimed at me ????
I rate Asian as much as English, I was just stating a fact from bats not actually getting into specifics about who makes what and how makes better.
Was talking overdried over low density mate.
I struggle to find these bats that take a year to play in though
@InternalTraining you still after balls I have around 30 of them in good condition....
@procricket, No, it is _not_ aimed at you. It is not aimed at anyone. I am just stating what I have experienced. My TKs, Amplus (rumor has it was made by TK) are absolute gems. They sound and feel different than my CAs. As a consumer, I feel we lose forest for the trees. Overdried? Under-dried? Does it even matter as long as it pings and makes me happy for my weekend game?
I am all set with balls; I think it was @potzy248 who was looking for balls - if I remember correctly, his kit was stolen from his car.
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Very rare , but depends if you want perfect looks and low density or 5 grains ,marks on the face and low density ? Would you pay say £500 because I said it was low density and looks terrible?
Ugly face but rocket performance, and cheap? I will take it. :D
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So if a cleft is low density willow but is an ugly blade does that mean it's not sold as low density just regular grade 2/3/4 willow?
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From what I've seen generally speaking if a cleft is really low density not it will get marked up to top grade due to the rarity of the willow, this doesn't normally apply to bats that are 1 or 2 ounces lighter than normal though, 3 ounces lighter than normal and then you see the cleft going up a grade, however your unlikely to ever get a very ugly piece of willow in low density as buttler flies knots etc tend to be denser than willow so you won't normally find a bat covered in knots in low density
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generally
tight, white and light
tick all three boxes and you have a pro cleft.
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So if a cleft is low density willow but is an ugly blade does that mean it's not sold as low density just regular grade 2/3/4 willow?
If a cleft is truly low density it wont be graded 2/3/4 its also rare for it to be available first up to the bat buying public
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@procricketAs a consumer, I feel we lose forest for the trees. Overdried? Under-dried? Does it even matter as long as it pings and makes me happy for my weekend game?
Is it possible to under dry a cleft?
As willow takes on and expels moisture to match it's environment, wouldn't it theoretically lose weight if it was "under dried" or came from a damper natural environment e.g made in England then taken to India?
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Can a low density cleft be over pressed ?
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If a cleft is truly low density it wont be graded 2/3/4 its also rare for it to be available first up to the bat buying public
Not true in our book - only low density Grade 1 makes it into our crown grade - that's why these are so special and they are the price they are.
We don't tend to get a lot of low density grade 3's but the low density grade 2's we use for our Pro's.
Higher moisture = wont play as well
Lower moisture = become brittle
Research has show 11% is the optimum (hence the aim for willow suppliers to get to 10 - 12%). Interestingly, you cannot get to this moisture content (MC) without a kiln (UK climate).
Density can only be compared when clefts have a similar MC throughout otherwise you are comparing apples with pears and is pointless.
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@The Doctor "but the low density grade 2's we use for our Pro's."
Any possibility of us average joes getting hands on these?
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@The Doctor "but the low density grade 2's we use for our Pro's."
Any possibility of us average joes getting hands on these?
I've got a 358 cleft 2stripe and a 363 cleft 1stripe, these are available to everyone, you just need to ask, wait,choose or design a shape and pay.
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How does one confirm that a bat is low density willow vs overdried? As an example with CA you can tell that they use overdried willow a lot. Is their 15000 players edition 7 star bat still overdried willow or low density cleft? The price seems to suggest it is low density cleft but wanted other people opinion's.
Also how much low density willow would JS Wright supply big batmakers in a year? Like SS, CA, GM?
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I've got a 358 cleft 2stripe and a 363 cleft 1stripe, these are available to everyone, you just need to ask, wait,choose or design a shape and pay.
you have good friends......
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you have good friends......
Theres definitely a few beers owed 🍻👍
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Out of curiosity B3 what's the lightest cleft you've had and what shape did it produce? Could it have done a 50mm edged warner profile with no concaving at 2,10
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Out of curiosity B3 what's the lightest cleft you've had and what shape did it produce? Could it have done a 50mm edged warner profile with no concaving at 2,10
342
And if the cleft was big enough (i.e. oversized) it would have made a Warner at 2lb 9oz!
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How does one confirm that a bat is low density willow vs overdried? As an example with CA you can tell that they use overdried willow a lot. Is their 15000 players edition 7 star bat still overdried willow or low density cleft? The price seems to suggest it is low density cleft but wanted other people opinion's.
Also how much low density willow would JS Wright supply big batmakers in a year? Like SS, CA, GM?
CA's 7-star line are low-density bats. I have seen a SM-18 7 star and it is a huge bat for a 2-7 weight!
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Is it possible to under dry a cleft?
As willow takes on and expels moisture to match it's environment, wouldn't it theoretically lose weight if it was "under dried" or came from a damper natural environment e.g made in England then taken to India?
Yes, I think it is possible on both counts.
None of my bats have lost weight in recent years. I do make a point of weighing all my active bats once a year. I know somebody who leaves his bats near heating radiator to reduce moisture. :D
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CA's 7-star line are low-density bats. I have seen a SM-18 7 star and it is a huge bat for a 2-7 weight!
I think you are mixing up density, dryness and cleft size. The huge 2-7 might be a oversized overdried cleft, not necessarily oversized low density cleft.
Density and dryness can make a bat lighter but not necessarily bigger as point out by Doc in his post.
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Is there a way to check the moisture content in a bat? Get a reading somehow?
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Not without sticking a reader into the wood.
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I think you are mixing up density, dryness and cleft size. The huge 2-7 might be a oversized overdried cleft, not necessarily oversized low density cleft.
Density and dryness can make a bat lighter but not necessarily bigger as point out by Doc in his post.
No, I am not. You can get a low density, big cleft.
Regarding moisture, unless you drill a hole in the bat, you can't get an accurate reading.
This 2-7 is not over-dried; I have seen over-dried bats and how they sounds. There is a world of difference. CA bats meant for Pros are low-density clefts.
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No, I am not. You can get a low density, big cleft.
Regarding moisture, unless you drill a hole in the bat, you can't get an accurate reading.
This 2-7 is not over-dried; I have seen over-dried bats and how they sounds. There is a world of difference. CA bats meant for Pros are low-density clefts.
How big are we talking for a 2.7
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This 2-7 is not over-dried; I have seen over-dried bats and how they sounds. There is a world of difference. CA bats meant for Pros are low-density clefts.
My experiences have been different to yours. I have seen a few 7 star CA 15000 plus bats and the way they sound they are definitely over dried. Also, the Bat sticker says 2.07 weight, but the actual bat weighs about 2.10. Maybe it's picked up some moisture here in New Zealand.
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http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=33577.0 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=33577.0)
this is the limits.
As density is done at cleft form by calculating the volume and weight.
I have seen a 342 but that was mega low....
Most Pro I saw came through B3 used 2-9 to 2-11 they liked meat in there bat.
For me low low density is for people wanting a much lighter bat and getting it bigger.
Pro williow the myth continues.
Say it once say it again some pro get very lucky but they tend to be the paying kind but most use normal density and some have marks some don't.
I have seen so many myths about pro bats.
Some drill em too...
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over drying in England ie Airing cupboard or radiator is a funny science to, I find you have to keep doing them over dried tend to sound more metallic.
My old 1271 much has density around 300 as it now 2/4 but it does sound very different.
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My experiences have been different to yours. I have seen a few 7 star CA 15000 plus bats and the way they sound they are definitely over dried. Also, the Bat sticker says 2.07 weight, but the actual bat weighs about 2.10. Maybe it's picked up some moisture here in New Zealand.
That's I can't argue with.
My 2-11 was custom made in the CA factory and has retained its weight. My only quibble was that I wanted same grade willow that was used to make my friend's 2-7 7-star (mentioned above). I have knocked around with these bats and they sound very different, not the usual cracking/snappy sound of a CA.
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I believe the weights written on CA bats are without grip and toe guard hence when we receive their bats we weigh them and write their actual weights on the bats
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@procricket what do you mean when you said "Some drill em too..."?
Before the splice went in they drill a hole down in to the bat to make it lighter
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Hole down the middle like a Hunts Revolution? All the way down or just at the top away from the main striking area?
I often wondered if there was anything to be gained drilling down the edges (both sides from top to bottom) and filling with something lower density like cork (just to stop cracks on compression) but when I looked in to it quickly I think Hunts already beat me to that idea too about 15 years ago :)
Yes the Eclipse, my neighbor helped design it and has the original prototype..
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That's pretty cool :) How did they go and were there any issues with the design (edge cracks I suppose)?
What got me thinking was reading the ICC bat regulations and seeing that a 0.89cm thick toe insert could come up to 6.35cm up the blade and edge inserts could be up to 0.89cm thick and 2.54cm in to the blade. That is quite a volume of wood to replace from the non striking zone and if the insert is wood and could be argued to provide "protection from surface damage to the face, sides and shoulders of the blade" then it should be a go-er... or just removing the material from the inside like the Hunts Revolution definitely seems ok.... not that it matters to village cricket where you can use whatever but it got me thinking nonetheless.
Sorry got the name wrong it was the modulous that had the carbon fibre in it... I did pit some pictures up and a little write up somewhere, by all accounts the ball flew off these bats, there was some repair issue but not to many, or so I am led to believe..