Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: FattusCattus on January 07, 2018, 04:41:52 PM
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Does anyone fancy a stab at a 16 for New Zealand? I hope there will be a bit of blood-letting and a couple of changes. Here’s my stab:
Cook
Stoneman
Lawrence
Root
Malan
Livingstone
Bairstow
Foakes
Anderson
Woakes
Overton
Roland-Jones
Wood
Plunkett
Leach
Crane
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Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Overton
Anderson
Ballance
Roland Jones
Crane
Foakes
Wood
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Laurence, living stone and Joe Clarke are the three who keep coming up as the next ones with potential. I'm going to back a hunch in my team and also presume Stokes will play on the tour.
Cook
Stoneman
Hameed
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
malan
Woakes
Crane
Anderson(if he is not rested)
Overton
TRJ could do the job of Broad I think so SB a bit lucky to get in the squad.
The rest of tour party
Broad
TRJ
Clarke
Plunkett
Another spinner...I'm not actually sure who - it's not Leach because his action is still under a cloud I believe.
Bairstow keeps at the moment as unsure over whether we now need Foakes in, wouldn't mind if he did come in to be honest because we need JB in the top 5 and scoring runs.eitherway Bairstow at 5.
Crane is the main spinner we chuck him in regardless of conditions to find out if he can be in long term-so all eggs in one basket, if it happens to spin on day 4 or 5 root and Malan can bowl a few.
Hameed in with no real form behind him as a bit of a gamble he has the potential to be long term. I think Cook will play on for a while yet, but we will need a replacement at some point in the next 2-3 years I reckon.
Stoneman could drop to 3 and bat there and also open it doesn't really matter. Stoneman has not done great over five games, he has done enough and is a gutsy player- you need that in a test team Hameed has the potential like Stoneman to bat in tough conditions.
I think we need Hameed and Stoneman because we need to go backwards a bit a look for guys prepared to fight it out and work for runs....the test game has moved forward to faster scoring but there is still a place for these type of batsman. So, make the opposition get you out, there's shot players in the middle order.
So a bit of an old fashioned test squad from me :)
Very interested to see others views thou.
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I really like the thinking behind ppccopener's side, mine would be fairly similar.
cook
stoneman
hameed (lawrence could also slot in nicely)
root
malan
stokes
bairstow
curran
crane
overton
anderson
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Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Overton
Anderson
Ballance
Roland Jones
Crane
Foakes
Wood
This. Although I might like to see Leach involved.
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Cook
Stoneman
Northeast
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Overton (the fast one)
Anderson
Broad
Foakes
Woakes
Burns or Dan Laurence
Crane
TRJ
Curran T
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This shall be my first England tour overseas. Quite looking forward to it.
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Keep shouting out different names and hope some will come good eventually?
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I hope they pick Dan Lawrence when he's properly ready, rather than because they've run out of ideas.
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I would like to see two players given an enforced break - Ali, who will get not help from the conditions, and Broad, who needs to rediscover some fire - both potentially have test futures, but picking them again sends the wrong message at this juncture. I would also drop Vince, as he has shown that he is incapable of learning from his mistakes.
Assuming Stokes is fit and available, I would then use this as an opportunity to test out a couple of new faces in the following side:
Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Livingstone
Foakes
Roland-Jones
Wood
Anderson
With Ballance (after all, it'd be harsh to pick him, not play him then drop him), Woakes, Garton and Crane as the remainder of a small touring party.
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Surely the very 1st question you ask is... is Stokes playing?!!!
Otherwise it's just square pegs in round holes again.
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Cook
Stoneman
Northeast
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Overton (the fast one)
Anderson
Broad
Foakes
Woakes
Burns or Dan Laurence
Crane
TRJ
Curran T
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks Northeast deserves a shot
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Northeast definitely deserves a chance he’s done everything he could to get into the team
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I'm calling Northeast to announce a move to a div 1 county with the aim of improving his chances of England recognition, then getting a test call-up within two months.
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Give your boys as many chances as the Marsh brothers and they might come good... ;)
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I'm calling Northeast to announce a move to a div 1 county with the aim of improving his chances of England recognition, then getting a test call-up within two months.
I reckon this is spot on. Kent apparently want to take the captaincy away from him so i'd say the chances of him leaving are high. He's clearly got talent but i wonder if some Div 1 runs will convince the selectors he should get a go. Personally dont see him going n the NZ tour
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Rumours Root is out of the New Zealand tour so that opens a spot maybe northeast could get a go-he has been predicted for the very top for ages
If Root is out can anyone else see anyone different than Anderson to skipper?
Not broad surely!!!
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Rumours Root is out of the New Zealand tour so that opens a spot maybe northeast could get a go-he has been predicted for the very top for ages
If Root is out can anyone else see anyone different than Anderson to skipper?
Not broad surely!!!
Where did you hear this? 1st Tests doesnt start until 22nd March so unless its a longer term injury i reckon he's got plenty of time to be fit
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Rumours Root is out of the New Zealand tour so that opens a spot maybe northeast could get a go-he has been predicted for the very top for ages
If Root is out can anyone else see anyone different than Anderson to skipper?
Not broad surely!!!
Where has that rumour come from? Is he injured? Still got bad Gastro!
He's just been selected in both the ODI and T20i squad - surely if he was going to be rested it would be for the formats that he's not captain.
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I do love Bumble...
https://www.wisden.com/stories/opinion/bumble-leach-englands-first-choice-spinner-new-zealand (https://www.wisden.com/stories/opinion/bumble-leach-englands-first-choice-spinner-new-zealand)
It's interesting he mentions Gleeson he is one of the quickest going around but never gets mentioned.
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Rumours Root is out of the New Zealand tour so that opens a spot maybe northeast could get a go-he has been predicted for the very top for ages
If Root is out can anyone else see anyone different than Anderson to skipper?
Not broad surely!!!
Surely this is just the tri series if anything?
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Root was due to have a scan on a finger injury after being whacked by Cummins, it could have something to do with that?
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Surely this is just the tri series if anything?
It could be yes so I may not have accurate info
I beggars belief he will play all the one dayers then everything in New Zealand
The ecb often do the wrong thing, this time they need to do the right thing in the long term interests of root
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For me...
1 Cook - can't drop him if he still wants in, especially with top order troubles elsewhere
2 Stoneman - has done just enough given the lack of other options
3 Root - I was very against this but don't want to throw a youngster in at 3 and it's not like he's setting the world on fire at 4 anyway
4 Malan - clearly willing to learn, hopefully keeps improving
5 Bairstow - as a specialist bat, tell him if he wants to bat higher then fine, but that's his job now
6 Livingstone - top of the young guns and seriously good lions record plus an extra option with the ball
7 Foakes - better gloveman than Bairstow and seems highly rated with the bat too
8 Woakes - asked to step up and take the new ball. Without Stokes, should be one of our main men, here's your chance
9 Jamie Overton or Tom Helm - need to blood someone new with that bit extra, Craig O and to a lesser extent Curran did ok but realistically they're steady rather than spectacular, which we have covered.
10 Leach - deserves a go, plus fingerspin control in a 4 man attack
11 Jimmy - duh
Squad members - Crane, Northeast, Overtons/Helm/TRJ partly depending on fitness . Broad told to have a rest and then get some serious prep for the home summer.
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For me...
1 Cook - can't drop him if he still wants in, especially with top order troubles elsewhere
2 Stoneman - has done just enough given the lack of other options
3 Root - I was very against this but don't want to throw a youngster in at 3 and it's not like he's setting the world on fire at 4 anyway
4 Malan - clearly willing to learn, hopefully keeps improving
5 Bairstow - as a specialist bat, tell him if he wants to bat higher then fine, but that's his job now
6 Livingstone - top of the young guns and seriously good lions record plus an extra option with the ball
7 Foakes - better gloveman than Bairstow and seems highly rated with the bat too
8 Woakes - asked to step up and take the new ball. Without Stokes, should be one of our main men, here's your chance
9 Jamie Overton or Tom Helm - need to blood someone new with that bit extra, Craig O and to a lesser extent Curran did ok but realistically they're steady rather than spectacular, which we have covered.
10 Leach - deserves a go, plus fingerspin control in a 4 man attack
11 Jimmy - duh
Squad members - Crane, Northeast, Overtons/Helm/TRJ partly depending on fitness . Broad told to have a rest and then get some serious prep for the home summer.
Don't know much about Helm but like the look of this squad.
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I understand the temptation to play Bairstow as a specialist batsman but I think it would be a bad idea. He wants to keep iirc and I think it's because keeping provides him with a safety net.
He knows that 5-7 poor tests with the bat isn't the end of the world because he can make up for it with his keeping and that provides him with the freedom and confidence to play his natural game without having to worry about what happens after a couple of low scores.
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https://www.wisden.com/stories/ashes/the-ashes-are-finally-over-and-with-it-go-some-of-its-lustre (https://www.wisden.com/stories/ashes/the-ashes-are-finally-over-and-with-it-go-some-of-its-lustre)
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1. Hameed
2. Stoneman
3. Malan
4. Root
5. Cook (time for him to cash in?)
6. Bairstow- Tempted by Foakes with Bairstow as batsman though.
7. Livingstone
8. Woakes
9. TRJ/Curran
10. Broad (Once he's worked on his game)
11. Anderson
12. Moeen Ali
Squad: Stokes (Playing if not in prison), Jennings, Northeast, Crane, Overton, Curran, TRJ, Foakes.
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I understand the temptation to play Bairstow as a specialist batsman but I think it would be a bad idea. He wants to keep iirc and I think it's because keeping provides him with a safety net.
He knows that 5-7 poor tests with the bat isn't the end of the world because he can make up for it with his keeping and that provides him with the freedom and confidence to play his natural game without having to worry about what happens after a couple of low scores.
This is true, but he also wants to bat up the order. Can't have it all, and we have a back-up keeper who can bat ready... or we have James Vince. If Bairstow keeps, he bats 7 as far as I'm concerned otherwise you unbalance the team. A couple have suggested batting Livingstone at 7 behind Bairstow for example - sorry, but that's mad!
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1. Hameed
2. Stoneman
3. Malan
4. Root
5. Cook (time for him to cash in?)
6. Bairstow- Tempted by Foakes with Bairstow as batsman though.
7. Livingstone
8. Woakes
9. TRJ/Curran
10. Broad (Once he's worked on his game)
11. Anderson
12. Moeen Ali
Squad: Stokes (Playing if not in prison), Jennings, Northeast, Crane, Overton, Curran, TRJ, Foakes.
Including Stokes thats a squad of 20!
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I would go with something like this (assuming fit and free):
1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Malan
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Ali
8. Woakes
9.
10.
11. Anderson
9 and 10 should be your best wicket taking bowlers for the conditions. They don't need to bat just take wickets. Not that keen on Malan at 3, rather him 4 but Root seems settled at 4.
I don't think a big change is the answer. I think winning as many matches as possible is. I also think we have gone back to the late nineties where someone does well in one day cricket so he plays test matches and what do you know, they don't have the ability to play the long game, but their character is good so add 20 runs to his average because he's a good lad.
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1. Hameed
2. Stoneman
3. Malan
4. Root
5. Cook (time for him to cash in?)
6. Bairstow- Tempted by Foakes with Bairstow as batsman though.
7. Livingstone
8. Woakes
9. TRJ/Curran
10. Broad (Once he's worked on his game)
11. Anderson
12. Moeen Ali
Squad: Stokes (Playing if not in prison), Jennings, Northeast, Crane, Overton, Curran, TRJ, Foakes.
If you have Stokes in the squad then he HAS to play 6 to give England that balance! And too early to open with inexperience, so Cook needs to stay at 1 until we bed in two decent openers.
Malan good enough to bat at 3? I would keep him at 5 and try to bed in an opener at 3! Therefore:
Cook
Stoneman
Hameed
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Curren/Overton/Ali (depends on wicket)
Woakes
Crane (time to start looking at proper spin bowlers)
Anderson
I do like Ali but he has looked wanting in the Ashes! But in certain conditions he bats and bowls really well.
Would like to see a future opener at number 3. Some of the time he may well be batting in the first few overs against a moving ball anyway!! Aim to move Cook down to 3 in a couple of years! Stoneman is not young but will do for a while, until we (hopefully) find another strong opener.
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Alot of people not picking broad. Correct me if i am wrong but on paper arent NZ wickets more suited to him than Australian wickets?
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Alot of people not picking broad. Correct me if i am wrong but on paper arent NZ wickets more suited to him than Australian wickets?
If he is prepared to bowl for wickets rather than dry up runs maybe - but my thinking would be that leaving him on the bench sends a powerful message about complacency to the English game.
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If he is prepared to bowl for wickets rather than dry up runs maybe - but my thinking would be that leaving him on the bench sends a powerful message about complacency to the English game.
Yep i wasnt saying he should be in, just i can see the predictable message from the management being these pitches would suit him more. I suspect he wont be left out, dropped or rested
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Broad seemed to be waiting for something to happen when he was bowling! Whereas Anderson was giving it everything and trying to make things happen! (IMO)
I think Broad looked down and lacking in energy and aggression. He just needs to get that spark back?
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Broad seemed to be waiting for something to happen when he was bowling! Whereas Anderson was giving it everything and trying to make things happen! (IMO)
I think Broad looked down and lacking in energy and aggression. He just needs to get that spark back?
I thought it was interesting that, when he thought he was in danger of being dropped at the MCG, he managed to find 5mph and some variety and as a result looked the only bowler on either side who might conceivably take a wicket on that featherbed.
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I'm not sure he's fit mentally or physically to bowl at his very best at the moment.
He seems to have been in a lull for a long time now, however I suspect the motivation to take his 400th wicket will keep him going. His skill and experience is less and less use to the side if he's not taking wickets I'm afraid.
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I suspect most peoples squad would be different if Stokes was available, as it would allow for luxury bowlers such as Crane or Wood in a 5 man attack.
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Broad has developed technical problems over the last 2-3 years, I'd be sending him off to see Steffan Jones again pre-season.
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Quite; the fact is, a world class all rounder - the proper variety, good enough to get in the side as either batsman or bowler - gives a side so many more options. You can pack the batting, have an extra bowler or a speculative punt.
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Quite; the fact is, a world class all rounder - the proper variety, good enough to get in the side as either batsman or bowler - gives a side so many more options. You can pack the batting, have an extra bowler or a speculative punt.
Quite! I know that there was talk of how good Alis' batting and bowling figures were before the Ashes. But those were in favourable conditions for him.
There was even talk that he could be a World Class allrounder. But it is looking doubtful now.
I still believe that Ali is a high quality player in some conditions.
And Woakes is similar - looks a decent bat and bowler in some conditions but is not a true allrounder!
Ben Stokes on the other hand is a proper allrounder and few would dare argue that fact.
And with Stokes comes that freedom to strengthen other areas of the team. Funny that with Stokes we looked far more solid! And I think a lot of that is the confidence it brings!!
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Ben Stokes on the other hand is a proper allrounder and few would dare argue that fact.
And with Stokes comes that freedom to strengthen other areas of the team. Funny that with Stokes we looked far more solid! And I think a lot of that is the confidence it brings!!
Stokes and Bairstow together covered a lot of ills.
Half of your top five not firing? Never mind, because your best players are still to come.
Not got a spinner worth the name? Pick one who can bat a bit, pack the bowling.
Want to play a nastie fastie who can only bowl 15 overs a day? Heeeeere's Ben...
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I'm normally one who shouts to leave people where they are batting order-wise but I think it might be time for Root to man up and go to 3 with a couple of others moving up too. This is obviously presuming Stokes' mam will let him out to play:
1: Cook
2: Stoneman
3: Root (C)
4: Malan
5: Stokes
6: Bairstow (+)
7: Moeen
8: Woakes
9: Broad
10: Crane
11: Anderson
4 Genuine seam options, two spin options and hopefully enough batting without ruffling too many feathers bringing loads of new players in.
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I'm normally one who shouts to leave people where they are batting order-wise but I think it might be time for Root to man up and go to 3 with a couple of others moving up too. This is obviously presuming Stokes' mam will let him out to play:
1: Cook
2: Stoneman
3: Root (C)
4: Malan
5: Stokes
6: Bairstow (+)
7: Moeen
8: Woakes
9: Broad
10: Crane
11: Anderson
4 Genuine seam options, two spin options and hopefully enough batting without ruffling too many feathers bringing loads of new players in.
I don't disagree with this, but I suspect 2 players would! Root and Stokes seem pretty sure they want to bat at 4 and 6!
If Root did move up to 3 and Stokes to 5, then it does seem to give more flexibility and resolves the number 3 batting issue we have.
But I would make one change (at least temporarily at least) to replace Broad with Curren/Overton or another bowler. Broad needs to get his head
in the right place and also needs to not become too complacent about his place in the team!! Being shown that he is NOT irreplaceable may make him determined and he may get his mojo back.
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I don't disagree with this, but I suspect 2 players would! Root and Stokes seem pretty sure they want to bat at 4 and 6!
If Root did move up to 3 and Stokes to 5, then it does seem to give more flexibility and resolves the number 3 batting issue we have.
But I would make one change (at least temporarily at least) to replace Broad with Curren/Overton or another bowler. Broad needs to get his head
in the right place and also needs to not become too complacent about his place in the team!! Being shown that he is NOT irreplaceable may make him determined and he may get his mojo back.
I think if the management are gonna grow the stones to drop Broad after 100+ tests and nearly 400 wickets then they can grow enough to tell Root and Stokes that they'll bat where the team needs them to bat :D
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I think if the management are gonna grow the stones to drop Broad after 100+ tests and nearly 400 wickets then they can grow enough to tell Root and Stokes that they'll bat where the team needs them to bat :D
I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex.
Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves. If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)
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I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex.
Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves. If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)
Root does not have to captain at all. Anderson can
Root at 3 makes sense and it’s got to be Bairstow at 5 if that means giving up the gloves fine
We are not exactly flush with batsmen
Malan can slot in at 4
I don’t see why Root has to be skipper? Why?
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I can make the argument for Root at four - he has to skipper, and Malan would do just fine at three, which is after all where he bats for Middlesex.
Stokes can only stay at six if Bairstow gives up the gloves. If that were to happen, YJB at five is the best way to go - but if he is keeping them, six is more manageable for him than five and therefore Stokes should go up, creating space for someone to debut at seven (Livingstone?)
My reasoning for Malan at 4 not 3 was having him at 3 gives us 3 lefties in a row which I was trying to avoid.
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Root does not have to captain at all. Anderson can
Root at 3 makes sense and it’s got to be Bairstow at 5 if that means giving up the gloves fine
I don’t see why Root has to be skipper? Why?
Because he is the man selected by the powers that be.
It is that simple. Whether he is the best man for the job or not is at this stage debateable - he has shown some flashes of creativity, and has handled a difficult tour with great dignity (which lets face it is more important to the ECB bigwigs). Yes, it has had some effect on his batting, but in that regard one would simply be shifting the impact.
It certainly shouldn't be given to Anderson. Eek out what is left in Jimmy's body, but don't make him skipper. Its not a role that works for quick bowlers, and he is now very seperated from most of the squad in terms of of age and interests.
If not Root, it should be given to Bairstow - who has a good cricket brain, and is plegmatic enough that it would probably affect his performance less than anyones.
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I know keeping will sap YJB's energy so the logic is to bat at 7 so you have a break for 5 wickets.
The counter argument would be that until we have a tail that can play well he will often be farming the strike or hitting out and I think that is a waste.
The other thing is that if he does manage to bat for long enough at 7 to score a 100, he will most likely be strapping his keeping pads on pretty quickly after batting. If England bat first he will sit around (hopefully) for most of a day then squeeze in 2 innings batting and 2 fielding in 4 days.
Quinton De Kock was batting low for SA and everyone thought he should be higher. Surely you want your best 6 batsmen in the top 6. Ali and Woakes should score more than most 7 & 8s in the world when on form.
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Think it's a bit harsh to be dropped, he played a few decent knocks! Seems a bit silly dropping him and not Ali who was ropey all tour. Plus they picked him they need to stick with him can't keep changing all the time.
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Lots of suggestions for either playing 6 bowlers or a specialist batsman at 7, I'm confused by both to be honest!
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Lots of suggestions for either playing 6 bowlers or a specialist batsman at 7, I'm confused by both to be honest!
Mine, although having 6 "genuine" bowling options was more utilising Ali at 7 as an allround/part time bowling option
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Mine, although having 6 "genuine" bowling options was more utilising Ali at 7 as an allround/part time bowling option
Why do we need 6 though? Someone's going to end up barely bowling, and poor Moeen at 7 will be too busy dealing with his nosebleed to score many runs. Would rather see a proper batsman playing higher up the order, a specialist no 7 bat/part time lobber isn't going to win you many test matches.
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Think it's a bit harsh to be dropped, he played a few decent knocks! Seems a bit silly dropping him and not Ali who was ropey all tour. Plus they picked him they need to stick with him can't keep changing all the time.
Who played a few decent knocks fella? Dropping who? Trying to suss out what you are replying to?
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Why do we need 6 though? Someone's going to end up barely bowling, and poor Moeen at 7 will be too busy dealing with his nosebleed to score many runs. Would rather see a proper batsman playing higher up the order, a specialist no 7 bat/part time lobber isn't going to win you many test matches.
So would you drop Moeen altogether? I'm not sure that we do need 6, maybe I'm clinging on to Mo for sentimentality's sake.
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So would you drop Moeen altogether? I'm not sure that we do need 6, maybe I'm clinging on to Mo for sentimentality's sake.
While Stokes is gone, yes. With Stokes in the team then having a mercurial luxury player works well, he's covered if he's not playing well and the team looks very strong if he's in form. Without Stokes, there's too much responsibility for an inconsistent player. Potentially he comes back in when Stokes is back, but you'd hope Leach/whoever would have nailed a place down by then.
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While Stokes is gone, yes. With Stokes in the team then having a mercurial luxury player works well, he's covered if he's not playing well and the team looks very strong if he's in form. Without Stokes, there's too much responsibility for an inconsistent player. Potentially he comes back in when Stokes is back, but you'd hope Leach/whoever would have nailed a place down by then.
To be fair my team had Stokes in ;)
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I'm normally one who shouts to leave people where they are batting order-wise but I think it might be time for Root to man up and go to 3 with a couple of others moving up too. This is obviously presuming Stokes' mam will let him out to play:
1: Cook
2: Stoneman
3: Root (C)
4: Malan
5: Stokes
6: Bairstow (+)
7: Moeen
8: Woakes
9: Broad
10: Crane
11: Anderson
4 Genuine seam options, two spin options and hopefully enough batting without ruffling too many feathers bringing loads of new players in.
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To be fair my team had Stokes in ;)
It did, which is why you didn't need 5 other bowling options! ;)
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It did, which is why you didn't need 5 other bowling options! ;)
But you said I could have Mo if Stokes played :(
In all seriousness. Mo's had a shocker but surely he has a little credit in the bank after a good summer?
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But you said I could have Mo if Stokes played :(
In all seriousness. Mo's had a shocker but surely he has a little credit in the bank after a good summer?
I said I'd drop Moeen if Stokes didn't play, not drop Moeen regardless! Could be Crane/Broad/Woakes from that side making room for a batsman instead, just no point playing 6 bowlers.
...probably still would drop Moeen though.
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I said I'd drop Moeen if Stokes didn't play, not drop Moeen regardless! Could be Crane/Broad/Woakes from that side making room for a batsman instead, just no point playing 6 bowlers.
...probably still would drop Moeen though.
To be fair after the lack of penetration shown by bowlers on this tour maybe we do need 6 bowlers, problem I I suppose we could also use 7 batsmen to make sure we got 400+ more often than not :D
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so Mo's test career basically depends on whether Stokes plays or not. lol.
:D :D
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It would be nice to have 7 bowlers and 7 batsmen but don't suppose we could get away with that one ;)
But I would be happy with the following balance:
1. Cook (he needs to work on consistency)
2. Stoneman (needs to work on short ball)
3. Root (unless we can find a very solid no3 or if Hameed finds form)
4. Malan (assuming he continues to work hard on his batting and has the skill to move to 4)
5. Stokes
6. Bairstow
7. Ali / Overton / TRJ (depends on track)
8. Woakes (he needs to find the extra pace he had for a while again!)
9. 90+ mph bowler (similar to Steve Harmison/Flintoff whe they were bowling fast and accurate!)
10. We need a decent front line spinner! Crane? Hopefully!
11. Anderson
The above is obviously wishful thinking because we are struggling to find a 9 and 10 described above.
I do like Ali and hope he gets some form back soon, but if we had a proper front line spinner, then he can be replaced if the wicket is a green top?
Broad could slot in again once he gets his mojo back, or could replace Woakes if he doesn't find the form or pace he had last year.
If Stokes doen't play, then a Vince/Hameed needs to slot into bat at 3 and Root and Malan move to 4 and 5.
Then you have lost one pace bowler so if you had a front line spinner, that leaves you with Anderson plus 2 pace bowlers if Ali plays?
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What's the benefit of playing the extra bowler Pete? If it's a green one you're selecting 5 seamers there! Only 90 overs in a day and all that.
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More choice. Wickets suit different bowlers more than others. Then the wicket starts to deteriorate and suits other bowlers. Just gives so many options.
But if that is overkill, then bring in another batsman such as Hameed?
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More choice. Wickets suit different bowlers more than others. Then the wicket starts to deteriorate and suits other bowlers. Just gives so many options.
But if that is overkill, then bring in another batsman such as Hameed?
I think the way we are struggling to get to 400 I would want the extra batsman... but you could go with someone a bit more dynamic like Livingstone as the extra batsman. Or the Foakes argument and give him the gloves.
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Poor Moeen, gone from England's second leading wicket taker in 2017 to being booted out of the team!
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When is the squad being announced- I thought it was tonight for some reason?
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It was announced at 10pm https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/590619/england-name-test-squad-for-new-zealand-tour (https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/590619/england-name-test-squad-for-new-zealand-tour)
You can all stop picking names out of your county hats, thank you
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Livingstone and wood in ballance, ball and Curran out
Stokes also picked
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Livingstone and wood in ballance out
Livingstone, Wood and “Stokes” in.
Ballance, Curran and Ball out.
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Welcome back Ben stokes...hopefully.
Don't know much about Livingstone and with Vince(who must play now in the squad) they are certainly giving him enough opportunities, he has the talent not sure he has the mental capacity to bat in tests thou myself.
More interesting that just the squad names if it we change with Stokes(presumably) in the side and play Foakes and Bairstow as a specialist.
That would be a fairly big change. I have a feeling in my water that is what we will do thou. Foakes gets capped and Baistow 5.
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I'm alright with the squad. Different conditions to Oz, ball will seam more, gives stoneman and vince another challenge and two tests to see if they can make a score. If not, start the english summer afresh. Livingstone may be alongbfir the experience and a closer look.
Certainly won't be easy. Boult and Southee have made us look silly before. Add Wagner to the mix and Williamson, Taylor in home conditions and it will be a challenge. Should be more familiar for our players though. Anderson, woakes and Broad will get more out of NZ pitches and Moeen deserves a go. Stokes i doubt will tour
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Still no Leach?!Surely they must think he chucks it.
Wood again?Can only manage 5 overs of 88mph then pulls up. Was hoping for at least one new face in the pace bowling department. Pleased about Livingston though.
Woakes,Ali and Broad are lucky boys.
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Something to think about, with or without Stokes we will surely only play one spinner.....
If Ali is not the spinner does he get in the first test? If Foakes does play that may reduce the chances.
And I don't want to be a doom monger but this two test series is a Helluva banana skin
I'm not sure we are favourites. NZ are decent and at home.I can see us losing this series.
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Something to think about, with or without Stokes we will surely only play one spinner.....
If Ali is not the spinner does he get in the first test? If Foakes does play that may reduce the chances.
And I don't want to be a doom monger but this two test series is a Helluva banana skin
I'm not sure we are favourites. NZ are decent and at home.I can see us losing this series.
Unless they are thinking of trying Moeen at 3 and as a second spinner?
Cook
Stoneman
Ali
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Broad
Crane
Anderson
And if Stokes doesn’t play, then Foakes or Livingstone in?
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Ali at 3?After the way he batted in Australia?! Vince has possibly one more test then in comes Livingston
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Ali at 3?After the way he batted in Australia?! Vince has possibly one more test then in comes Livingston
If you take the Australian series, then we have a lot of holes to fill.
I suppose you could move him to 7 and have Bairstow at 3?
Can’t see what Vince brings, you may as well go straight to Livingstone in that case.
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Ali at 3?After the way he batted in Australia?! Vince has possibly one more test then in comes Livingston
If that was the case is Livingstone a 3 or malan move up and he slots in that position
He is a hard hitting middle order player this guy?
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Not that I think Balance should have been picked to go to Australia in the first place, but how can they justify dropping him and keeping all the batters that just got us smashed 4-0?
Doesn't look good on the selectors! I think Ali and Broad are very lucky to have been selected also.
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^ or perhaps Ballance hasn't shown them anything to get excited about during the tour? Obviously he's not playing, but there's still nets. If he's still not changed his game enough it's the definition of insanity expecting a different result.
I agree that NZ is a series we can easily lose. Quite telling from MV on BT sport, saying how hard Malan worked on his deficiences in the nets while Stoneman, after being hit, stuck to focusing on half volleys on off stump in the nets. If Vince and Stoneman have a poor series they're gone and I reckon the selectors are looking then at Livingstone and hoping Hameed has a great start to the season
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Not that I think Balance should have been picked to go to Australia in the first place, but how can they justify dropping him and keeping all the batters that just got us smashed 4-0?
Doesn't look good on the selectors! I think Ali and Broad are very lucky to have been selected also.
perhaps they felt GB was a solid back up on hard bouncy tracks, but they don’t fancy him on green seamers in NZ.
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It was announced at 10pm https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/590619/england-name-test-squad-for-new-zealand-tour (https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/590619/england-name-test-squad-for-new-zealand-tour)
You can all stop picking names out of your county hats, thank you
Clever from the selectors to have no photo next to Livingstone's name, makes it easy to sneak a ringer into the team if things look desperate.
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If I have understood about Livingstone, he is a middle-order stroke player and he has rapidly been developing handy offies and leggies.
I think he's in the squad to shadow Ali and be a like for like replacement if ali fails in the first test.
Ali at 3 is unthinkable. I'm assuming stokes won't play and the management won't make any brave decisions, so the starting XI will look something like -
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow+
Ali
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson
personally, I would have gone for -
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow+
Livingstone
Woakes
Overton
Wood
Crane
Anderson
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personally, I would have gone for -
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow+
Livingstone
Woakes
Overton
Wood
Crane
Anderson
This is the team in my head. I'd personally have Livingstone above Bairstow, just to beak them up a bit, given the tail looks a bit long, but this has to be the best we've got at the moment.
I've never overly rated Ali, he can be economical in one day cricket, but his bowling isn't penetrative enough for Test Cricket. His batting just isn't solid enough either to be honest, I get the counterattack argument, and that works if you're Ben Stokes but sometimes it needs a little bit of application and if he hasn't figured it out by now, I'm not sure he ever will.
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To be fair to Moeen, he's never said he's a frontline spinner, he much prefers to be second in line. Stokes completely shafted plans and a well balanced side which would probably have seen Malan at 3 by the third test, Moeen at 5 and allowed a second spinner.
Moeen had an awful series but he's been very useful for England for three years now.
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If I have understood about Livingstone, he is a middle-order stroke player and he has rapidly been developing handy offies and leggies.
I think he's in the squad to shadow Ali and be a like for like replacement if ali fails in the first test.
Ali at 3 is unthinkable. I'm assuming stokes won't play and the management won't make any brave decisions, so the starting XI will look something like -
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow+
Ali
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson
personally, I would have gone for -
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow+
Livingstone
Woakes
Overton
Wood
Crane
Anderson
Yep i think this is is right they will start with exactly the same side that played the majority of the Ashes.
Livingstone and Crane along for the ride - unless Stokes is somehow available which then gives us a lot more options to think about.
Wood is an interesting selection as the question surely is still there about his fitness.
I think it is this tour, more than the Ashes, that could end a few careers. Vince and Stoneman will be facing Southee and Boult on decks that will do a bit and Ali will be bowling to 2 of the best players of spin around (outside of the SC) in Taylor and Williamson.
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So Stokes is included in the squad, isn't he?
Do we assume that he will be playing?
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i doubt it, hes been included in the ashes squad and odi squads but made unavailable until the CPS case is resolved.
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So Stokes is included in the squad, isn't he?
Do we assume that he will be playing?
Yes Pete he is in the squad.
I really can't see him playing though - ECB need to maintain their stance of he won't be picked until it's all sorted - so unless he's not charged etc... etc.... he won't be playing.
The conspiracy theorist in me reckons they have hedged their bets leaving Curran out knowing they can just call him up when they know Stokes isn't playing!
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Still no Leach?!Surely they must think he chucks it.
Wood again?Can only manage 5 overs of 88mph then pulls up. Was hoping for at least one new face in the pace bowling department. Pleased about Livingston though.
Woakes,Ali and Broad are lucky boys.
I think they have question marks over both his action and his temperament. I think he struggles on recent Lions outings and is a bit vulnerable under assault.
Wood got a bumming in the One Day warm up today.
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No TRJ either?
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Ali at 3?After the way he batted in Australia?! Vince has possibly one more test then in comes Livingston
I mean, if a couple of nice looking cover drives before being dismissed for 20 is enough for a #3 then Moeen can do everything Vince can with the added bonus of being able to bowl a few overs and opening up a space in the test side for Crane.
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I know what you're saying BMAC. Vince is infuriating as he looks so good then snicks off every time!
Shai Hope was mentioned as someone who flattered for 11 tests before he got two hundreds against England last summer. Is 5/6 tests enough? The great Steve Waugh, Jacques Kallis struggled when they first came on the scene.
We can't keep chopping and changing,the selectors need to show a little faith,and I'm talking particularly about the batting- look what's happened with Malan.
Still not happy with our bowling options though!
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Don't pigeonhole Livingstone as just a hitter who bowls part time soon, he's a serious player. Bats 4 for lions and lancs, scored piles and piles for the Lions in Sri Lanka last year in stupid heat with most of the rest of the side getting spun out.
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Wasn't Livingstone playing club cricket and struggling to get in the Lancs side not long ago? If so,that's a helluva rise! Warner got plucked kinda out of nowhere so let's hope for a similar result! Does he bowl leggies and offies too?
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I know what you're saying BMAC. Vince is infuriating as he looks so good then snicks off every time!
Shai Hope was mentioned as someone who flattered for 11 tests before he got two hundreds against England last summer. Is 5/6 tests enough? The great Steve Waugh, Jacques Kallis struggled when they first came on the scene.
We can't keep chopping and changing,the selectors need to show a little faith,and I'm talking particularly about the batting- look what's happened with Malan.
Still not happy with our bowling options though!
Kallis was a proper all-rounder and Steve Waugh was a pretty aggressive batsman that got dropped early on and was replaced by his brother. Waugh didn't become a great until he overhauled his game and cut out the hook shot.
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Don't pigeonhole Livingstone as just a hitter who bowls part time soon, he's a serious player. Bats 4 for lions and lancs, scored piles and piles for the Lions in Sri Lanka last year in stupid heat with most of the rest of the side getting spun out.
The most important thing for me is that he is a cricketer who knows how own method rather than one who has been coached to a textbook, which means that he is very adaptable.
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Don't pigeonhole Livingstone as just a hitter who bowls part time soon, he's a serious player. Bats 4 for lions and lancs, scored piles and piles for the Lions in Sri Lanka last year in stupid heat with most of the rest of the side getting spun out.
If I have got my players numbers right(12 are normally in my side!) If stokes don't play on the tour and Bairstow still keeps ahead of Foakes....and Ali does not play because we only play one spinner(crane) Livingstone would bat 6..
And that's still giving Vince and Stoneman 4 innings on the tour.Stoneman I think myself has less of a problem with getting picked, he looks ok and battles it out which you need up top, Vince is a different matter and like others has said NZ have a decent attack and they know where to put the ball-which almost certainly will be short of a length outside off.
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Don't think I see Livingstone and Crane playing, unless Vince is dropped. We'll want four seamers in NZ.
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Am I the only person who thinks the squad is unbalanced.
If one of the top three is injured, who is the replacement?
Livingston, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow are all middle order players (Stokes unlikely to play unless the CPS actually make a decision)
Malan is not really a 3, nor should Livingston be.
Once again the selectors have no plan, just a hope. Plus the lions will be in the West Indies which isn't all that convenient for a scoot off to Kiwi land. I admit nowhere is convenient for that, but the point stands.
Most of the bowling selections are consistent, but there is no variety other than the fast medium right hand stuff.
Crane has been selected when he would be better served bowling in the spin friendly west Indies rather than carrying drinks.
It makes no sense to me.
Not for the first time I think Whittaker and the selectors needs to be replaced. (I would go for Peter Moores, Steve Harmison and Graham Thorpe)
The English setup is its own worst enemy.
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Hmmmm.yes Buzz...I think even those die hard supporters of England( I'm one of this although I hope not a biased fan when we don't play well)
Are thinking we don't have much of a plan. We can't really balance the side because of Stokes, but in the Ashes we didn't have top 3 coverage either, Ballance was the spare batsman, I suppose you could make a case he would of batted 3 if picked but that does not really fit either he's more of a 5 also.
Agree on Thorpe and Peter Moores, essentially with Bayliss not knowing much about County cricket we need some who do. Newell and Fraser I think are the others but how much influence do they have?
Root should bat 3 I've read everyone opinions on here and I just cannot see an argument for him not to...he's our best player by miles batting wise.Everyone else slots in down the order.
picking Crane and hen dropping him makes no sense, root, Bayliss, farbrace are talking about he next Ashes series away, how can they tell after one match if he is any good....
Without Stokes, some of our players got shown up, Woakes did not have a good tour, neither did Ali.
Ben Stokes covers up some cracks in our side, that's the reality of him not playing.
I think myself we are further behind that some care to admit, I also think we could lose in NZ.
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Bit harsh leaving Curran out of the NZ tour understand a fully fit Mark Wood is needed but woakes should have been left out he's already had to many tour failures
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Bit harsh leaving Curran out of the NZ tour understand a fully fit Mark Wood is needed but woakes should have been left out he's already had to many tour failures
Without Woakes we would have a proper tail though - particularly without Stokes in the side. You would end up with something like:
7. Ali
8. Overton/Crane
9. Wood
10. Broad
11. Anderson
If Stokes plays and everyone moves down a slot that is doable, but otherwise Woakes is a must for his batting as much as his bowling in my view. Particularly for NZ where he is almost playing as a 4th seamer anyway (assume we will play 4 given conditions).
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You've got a point there @Buzz, although to be fair Livingstone batted 3 for Lancs all last year. Wouldn't want to throw him in there on test debut though, we need to get away from asking players to start their test career at 3 and give debutants the best chance of easing their way in to tests.
Suspect the selectors are still closing their eyes and hoping Stokes will be available and that will make everything ok again. More debuts to come, definitely a good time for someone to score a load for the Lions!
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I really think the selectors are putting all their eggs in a Stokes shaped ginger basket.
They keep on selecting him in the squad in hope that he can play and then they have the flexibility to pick a side a lot easier - pick an extra batter, or even a proper spinner etc...
Then when he can't play it's too late the squad is all out of shape, they have no back up plan etc...
Why not do it the other way round - don't pick Stokes in the squad - think he won't be available, and pick a squad that will cover our deficiencies of not having him etc...
Then if he is available brilliant, hooray, superb, he is back!
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Still find the whole Moeen witch-hunt a little baffling, he's had one bad series - am I missing something? Aus is arguably the hardest place to come and perform. Obviously he hasn't been good enough, but surely deserves another series or so after what he's brought to the side over the past few years? He got a 10fer just 6 months ago...
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Still find the whole Moeen witch-hunt a little baffling, he's had one bad series - am I missing something? Aus is arguably the hardest place to come and perform. Obviously he hasn't been good enough, but surely deserves another series or so after what he's brought to the side over the past few years? He got a 10fer just 6 months ago...
Unfortunately Moeen averages 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball, so it's not just been one poor series! Trouble is that he's occasionally brilliant but when he's not being brilliant he's being sadly poor. Not 100% for axing him but think his place in the side is much harder to justify without Stokes balancing the team.
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I really think the selectors are putting all their eggs in a Stokes shaped ginger basket.
They keep on selecting him in the squad in hope that he can play and then they have the flexibility to pick a side a lot easier - pick an extra batter, or even a proper spinner etc...
Then when he can't play it's too late the squad is all out of shape, they have no back up plan etc...
Why not do it the other way round - don't pick Stokes in the squad - think he won't be available, and pick a squad that will cover our deficiencies of not having him etc...
Then if he is available brilliant, hooray, superb, he is back!
I think they have to pick him for legal reasons so as to show that they aren't prejudging the outcome of the legal process.. So that if he was cleared he is in the squad and hasn't been unfairly excluded and stopped from earning money on the basis of unproven allegations etc.
Fact is he is effectively suspended and unavailable for selection until the outcome is known.
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Unfortunately Moeen averages 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball, so it's not just been one poor series! Trouble is that he's occasionally brilliant but when he's not being brilliant he's being sadly poor. Not 100% for axing him but think his place in the side is much harder to justify without Stokes balancing the team.
This is basically where I'm at now I think. I like Mo but he's like the little girl with the little curl from the Longfellow poem isn't he - "And when she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was horrid"
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I'm not sure I'm blaming Moeen directly, but the management and coaching staff are culpable.
Our only experienced spinner, offering the only variety to a 4 man medium-paced attack, strains his side and cuts his finger - he's not really going to be that good is he? added to this, he's continually picked despite not performing for 5 tests in a row - it's not doing him any favours really, is it?
I would like to think that moving forward, some lessons are learn't and we a) start prioritising extreme coaching for young test-hopefuls who offer variety (quicks, spinners, left-armers) b) we have experienced reserves lined up to parachute in when such things happen as to Ali (Patel or someone else who isn't a callow youth).
With 38 support staff paid to be on tour and the wages the England guys are getting, surely there is money out there to be diverted into working with these hopefuls, and to unearth some talent?
Broad, Anderson and Swann at their best were a very good attack, but it soon runs out behind them and we start to look a little 1990's right arm samey.
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I think they have to pick him for legal reasons so as to show that they aren't prejudging the outcome of the legal process.. So that if he was cleared he is in the squad and hasn't been unfairly excluded and stopped from earning money on the basis of unproven allegations etc.
Fact is he is effectively suspended and unavailable for selection until the outcome is known.
Even if that is the case my point still stands.
The squad is based around him being available and has no contingency if he isn't.
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Mo should never haver been given the test match first spinner role because he isn't one prior to the Aus tour who said so Moeen himself
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Without Woakes we would have a proper tail though - particularly without Stokes in the side. You would end up with something like:
7. Ali
8. Overton/Crane
9. Wood
10. Broad
11. Anderson
If Stokes plays and everyone moves down a slot that is doable, but otherwise Woakes is a must for his batting as much as his bowling in my view. Particularly for NZ where he is almost playing as a 4th seamer anyway (assume we will play 4 given conditions).
Yes if he scores runs or stays in when the batters are scoring and doesnt expose the tail as happened in Aus.
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Even after a horrendous Ashes tour, Moeen has the 5th best strike rate (66.4) among English spinners (min. 20 wickets) since the Second World War.
Of the four spinners with a better strike rate, Swann (Top with a S/R of 60.1) is the only one that played in the last 60 years. (Well, 59 years in February if we're being pedantic)
Moeen has a better strike rate than Underwood, Panesar, Lock, Edmonds, Emburey, Titmus and pretty much everybody else that has turned out for England.
He's not perfect but that's got to count for something.
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Does anyone know what the pitches are likely to be like?
My memory isn't great but didn't they play on a couple of dead drop in tracks last time down there? Keep hearing people say they will be green seamers.
I think until we unearth the next 100-test players we should have enough bowlers to cover the overs if 1 or 2 promising but raw talents have a bad day. So that means Woakes, Ali, Stokes will be needed to score some runs if at all possible.
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Does anyone know what the pitches are likely to be like?
My memory isn't great but didn't they play on a couple of dead drop in tracks last time down there? Keep hearing people say they will be green seamers.
I think until we unearth the next 100-test players we should have enough bowlers to cover the overs if 1 or 2 promising but raw talents have a bad day. So that means Woakes, Ali, Stokes will be needed to score some runs if at all possible.
Auckland -
according to cricinfo there hasn't been a Test there since 2014 and it was quite a game!
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11825/scorecard/667651/new-zealand-vs-india-1st-test-india-tour-of-new-zealand-2013-14/ (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11825/scorecard/667651/new-zealand-vs-india-1st-test-india-tour-of-new-zealand-2013-14/)
We were last there in 2013 we held out for a draw - when Prior got a 2nd innings 100 - Finn got 6 for.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/12231/scorecard/569245/new-zealand-vs-england-3rd-test-england-tour-of-new-zealand-2012-13/ (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/12231/scorecard/569245/new-zealand-vs-england-3rd-test-england-tour-of-new-zealand-2012-13/)
Christchurch -
The Bangladesh Test in January - pretty low scoring with Boult and Southee cleaning up
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10680/scorecard/1019987/new-zealand-vs-bangladesh-2nd-test-bangladesh-tour-of-new-zealand-2016-17/ (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10680/scorecard/1019987/new-zealand-vs-bangladesh-2nd-test-bangladesh-tour-of-new-zealand-2016-17/)
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Does anyone fancy a stab at a 16 for New Zealand? I hope there will be a bit of blood-letting and a couple of changes. Here’s my stab:
Cook
Stoneman
Lawrence
Root
Malan
Livingstone
Bairstow
Foakes
Anderson
Woakes
Overton
Roland-Jones
Wood
Plunkett
Leach
Crane
Oooh! The news about Stokes messes up my starting XI now, but I'll have a go:
The one I would pick:
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes+
Woakes
Overton
Crane
Anderson
The one England will pick:
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow +
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
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Would like to see -
Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Overton/TRJ
Anderson
Crane
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The one England will pick:
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow +
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Totally agree that this is likely to be the starting XI!
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...depressing isn't it
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Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow +
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
They will be seamer friendly pitches and I'm guessing they'll give Vince and Stoneman a last pop. If they fail on this tour, Livingstone and possibly Hameed/player off to a flyer will play in the summer's first test.
I'd like to ses Foakes get a go and probably push Bairstow up, hopefully it wouldn't affect his game. I do like Bairstow at seven though and I'd leave Malan at five. If it aint broke...
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I must admit that I do love the idea of Stokes, Foakes and Woakes all in the same team! :D
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Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Livingstone
Wales
Wood
Anderson
Crane
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Wales? What - all of them!!!!!
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Autocorrect!