Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: LEACHY48 on May 25, 2020, 08:49:28 PM
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Right, this may be an unpopular opinion but I'm beginning to lose all. Respect for Keeley as a brand.
Not only are the handles skinny and the bats don't pick up like I'd want them to, but they also are made on a CNC machine and finished by hand (but not advertised as such).
They also have begun to hike their prices to ridiculous levels, and have just sold a 'pro bat' at 650 during a 'Covid sale' - nothing like profiteering from a global pandemic - great morals.
It just strikes me that they are in this for nothing but the money.
Also the number of brands that are claiming keeley made but clearly aren't is beyond a joke now.
The industry as a whole is beginning to become devoid of morals from so many brands it is crazy.
I'd usually say we are lucky to have this forum to provide trustworthy brands etc, but there are now incidents that are beginning to make me question even certain sponsors (not going to mention names).
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What's the problem with using CNC during the process? A whole lot of batmakers process clefts with some form of machine, from the snaps I've seen of Keeley's setup they're no different. Having a quick scan at their website they don't seem to advertise anything contradictory, so what's the issue? It's just a processing tool.
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I find that's why so many companies come and go in this industry, you always get found out eventually if you're trying to rip people off. So many brands give it the "test grade this/test grade that" when it reality they're peddling cheap (No Swearing Please) that wouldn't even stand up to 40mph dobblers.
I'd always rather stick to my morals and provide a genuinely top product with the service to match which I know people will return for, rather than try and make a quick buck at every opportunity.
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What's the problem with using CNC during the process? A whole lot of batmakers process clefts with some form of machine, from the snaps I've seen of Keeley's setup they're no different. Having a quick scan at their website they don't seem to advertise anything contradictory, so what's the issue? It's just a processing tool.
I have no issue with CNC bats at all, I love my two B3s and the GM I had.
I do have an issue with keeley saying things like we are still handmade using traditional tools etc etc. When in actual fact, what they should be saying is - we make all our bats by CNC and then give them a sand and polish.
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What's the problem with using CNC during the process? A whole lot of batmakers process clefts with some form of machine, from the snaps I've seen of Keeley's setup they're no different. Having a quick scan at their website they don't seem to advertise anything contradictory, so what's the issue? It's just a processing tool.
Their strap line is 'the finest hand crafted cricket bats' but they make on CNC then give them a sand. Thats the issue.
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What does TK actually use the CNC for?
Keeley bats really don't interest me, so I haven't looked into this.
Does the CNC rough shape clefts and he finishes each bat by hand?
Or does he put a load of Superiors through the machine on Monday, a load of Worx 017 on Tuesday, a load of Worx 074 on Wednesday etc. then sand and sticker the finished bats straight from the machine?
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What does TK actually use the CNC for?
Keeley bats really don't interest me, so I haven't looked into this.
Does the CNC rough shape clefts and he finishes each bat by hand?
Or does he put a load of Superiors through the machine on Monday, a load of Worx 017 on Tuesday, a load of Worx 074 on Wednesday etc. then sand and sticker the finished bats straight from the machine?
From what I have seen, the bats look a little more than rough shaped, even if they are just rough shaped and finished by hand the 'handcrafting' part is minimal at best.
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Oh and to cap it all off they are charging 500 quid for a non legal cricket bat (laminate).
I'll have two thanks, bargain compared to their pro bat 'sale'
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What does TK actually use the CNC for?
Keeley bats really don't interest me, so I haven't looked into this.
Does the CNC rough shape clefts and he finishes each bat by hand?
Or does he put a load of Superiors through the machine on Monday, a load of Worx 017 on Tuesday, a load of Worx 074 on Wednesday etc. then sand and sticker the finished bats straight from the machine?
That’s probably how it works yes mate. Batches are normally made to order for stock replenishment in most cases, well from a brief convo from GM who CNC bats when I made an enquiry about a Noir sig as everywhere was out of stock. I was told a “new batch” would be available to retailers on X date.
The issue is in my simple opinion the name “Keeley” sells itself and always had been known as quality. Now Iv had 3 “Keeley” branded bats in the last 18 months and all three were ok but nothing that wowed me enough to keep them. The shapes are decent and modern and the branding is good with the colours etc. Some love them and swear by them and others never seen what all the fuss is about.
The £650 “Pro” offer was a load of marketing nonsense as they from the social media pics and also a couple sent to me by a mate who enquired where looks wise no better than G2 but they were big and light and performance can only ever be justified after getting the bat fully match ready and opinions will always differ.
As to people using his name that’s been the case for ages but for me they are not a brand I’m interested in really for a multiple of reasons but mainly I just don’t think there that good.
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I find that's why so many companies come and go in this industry, you always get found out eventually if you're trying to rip people off. So many brands give it the "test grade this/test grade that" when it reality they're peddling cheap (No Swearing Please) that wouldn't even stand up to 40mph dobblers.
I'd always rather stick to my morals and provide a genuinely top product with the service to match which I know people will return for, rather than try and make a quick buck at every opportunity.
This is the attitude so many brands are missing. To be honest, I think the fact that you are in the minority is really sad and killing the industry.
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I agree with the prices and laminates part. Having said that, if i could afford to spend 500+ on a bat i would much rather spend it on one that has a better chance of actually being a pro bat than those indian made gray nicolls legends, Pakistan made Ca morgs or SS made M&Hs
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Also this is printed on every Gunn & Moore in the market.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4LLLwNf/Screenshot-20200526-015050.jpg)
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I don’t think there is a difference between a fully made CNC bat and a bat that started on a copy lathe. Or even a fully handshaped bat.
I reckon most bat makers have a copy lathe if they have room for it/ want to make bats quicker and easier. Removes a large amount of the wood then they can spend more time making sure the balance and pickup are just right.
I wouldn’t say it makes a bat any better or worse product. If anything using a copy lathe should mean reduced man hours on the bat so it will be cheaper.
As for the pricing, Keeley are a joke. I certainly won’t be buying one, can get 2, maybe 3 quality bats for £650. But they can afford to do it, they have the reputation and people are stupid enough to pay it.
The brothers have also trained and helped various other brands along the way.
I think we all just need to play some cricket really! So we have something else to moan about.
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I have no issue with CNC bats at all, I love my two B3s and the GM I had.
I do have an issue with keeley saying things like we are still handmade using traditional tools etc etc. When in actual fact, what they should be saying is - we make all our bats by CNC and then give them a sand and polish.
Is this true though? The limited snaps I've seen look like the bats need a lot more than a sand post-cnc.
Are Keeley trying to rip people off? Their prices are very high, but then I've heard it from the mouth of certain other brands that they keep the prices high just to look good, so it's hardly unique...
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My Keeley made BB is still the best bat I've ever used so I would say that they don't have a reputation for nothing. That being said, unless you're playing at an extremely high level I don't see the value in paying over £350 for a bat, possibly even lower than that.
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This thread seems a bit of a waste of time to me, if you don't like the way keeley make bat's or the price they charge don't buy one. How many large scale manufacturers in any industry make anything 100% by hand and charge a low price for it?
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This thread seems a bit of a waste of time to me, if you don't like the way keeley make bat's or the price they charge don't buy one. How many large scale manufacturers in any industry make anything 100% by hand and charge a low price for it?
I completely agree. There are so many brands who are charging £600-700 for sharpie pen and people are buying them. I don’t pay £600 for any bat but my keeley bats have always performed.
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This thread seems a bit of a waste of time to me, if you don't like the way keeley make bat's or the price they charge don't buy one. How many large scale manufacturers in any industry make anything 100% by hand and charge a low price for it?
Salix is 100% all from hand and start at about £175 for the graded model. Chase I believe is 100% hand made in U.K. and start at sub £100 for the R1 but about £150 for the R4. The difference for me is the people behind these two brands for one reason or another the are not as present on Social media as Keeley and other associated brands and they also don’t have other business’s or people pushing the brand. Some company called “the bat room” or something only seems to sell Keeley bats and even had a load of blanks and the stickers for you to pick from and I think there are one or two others. Or you can go to a county pro who is happy to sell you these what I can only assume are these £650 “pro bats” for £250.
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Keeley bats are massively over-rated in general. I have had approximately 10, all top dollar pro grades and only 2 were very nice and both of these came from a certain international player.
If 8 out of 10 grade 1 bats are (No Swearing Please) from a bat maker, i dont get why they've such a good reputation.
The 500 pound laminate cracked me up
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I personally have never paid more than £135 for a bat (except for one that was a present) but I do have one so-called G1 Keeley labelled up by another reseller. It's probably not really G1 because it has more than 1 inch of heartwood, but it picks up very nicely and compares very well with all the other bats I've tried. Disappointing if it is cnc made, but doesn't matter as long as it performs... I'd be pissed of if I'd paid £400 though...
I can't believe Keeley is finally going out of fashion on CBF. Must be the effects of lock down...
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I've seen them CNC'd first hand. They were still. very rough when they came out and would still need a lot of hands on work.
I have no problem with CNC bats. My B3's and GM's are all fantastic.
I understand where you're coming from though @LEACHY48, especially with their pricing these days.
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Its more misleading rubbish that youd never get away with in any other industry. Pro, Players, Limited Edition, Handmade....
CNCd or pre shaped or pre pressed. You shouldnt be using the term Handmade.
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Salix is 100% all from hand and start at about £175 for the graded model. Chase I believe is 100% hand made in U.K. and start at sub £100 for the R1 but about £150 for the R4.
Trouble with saying things like '100% hand made' is where do you draw the line? Is machining the clefts down from bulk to a bat-ish shaped blank (like a lot of batmakers do) ok, or is that not hand made? If that isn't hand made then is using a bandsaw ok? If using a bandsaw isn't ok, do you have to cut the splice and handle by hand? I think putting 'hand made' on a pedestal only leads to confusion if you're not clear about what needs to be done by hand and why. Noone in the world has a machine that just takes clefts in one end and spits gun bats out the other! In the same vein I doubt anyone makes bats totally by hand either.
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There is an infatuation with “hand made” bats. Who cares whether a manufacturer uses hand tools or CNC to achieve a certain shape? A cleft shaved down to its final shape will perform same regardless of what tools were used to shape the cleft. Does using a drawknife inject extra life into a bat?
The real skill is pressing and handling and from what I hear (never had one myself) this is where TK stands out.
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From a business perspective, Keeley are doing about the only thing they can do.
Cricket bat sales have dropped off a cliff. There will quite probably be no club cricket played this season, therefore no need for a new bat. And we have around a quarter of the working British population without work (furloughed) or unsure that they'll have jobs to go to. That means a massive decline in money being spent on non-essential items (cricket bats).
That leaves 2 customer profiles for Keeley:
- The bargain hunter. Someone who has money right now, but is willing to spend £100 in order to save £150 in the future.
- The rich. Someone who can afford to spend money and is prepared to spend money in order to get something special, perhaps as a status thing.
The £200-£500, off the shelf, mass-market bat market will have all but died out. So you either sell a few bats and try to keep some money coming in, or live off the name you've build for 30 years and offer those with money something 'special'.
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This thread seems a bit of a waste of time to me, if you don't like the way keeley make bat's or the price they charge don't buy one. How many large scale manufacturers in any industry make anything 100% by hand and charge a low price for it?
This is an open forum where we all voice our opinion on all things cricket. Not sure how me doing this is a waste of time. In the same vein as your reply, if you don't like this thread you have the option to not read or reply.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion though.
But to answer your question, a multitude of manufacturers don't use heavy machining and don't charge an arm and a leg.
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A multitude of manufactures don’t use machinery in the manufacturing of there bats how do you define a multitude.
2-4-6 manufacturers just curious to know
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From a business perspective, Keeley are doing about the only thing they can do.
Cricket bat sales have dropped off a cliff. There will quite probably be no club cricket played this season, therefore no need for a new bat. And we have around a quarter of the working British population without work (furloughed) or unsure that they'll have jobs to go to. That means a massive decline in money being spent on non-essential items (cricket bats).
That leaves 2 customer profiles for Keeley:
- The bargain hunter. Someone who has money right now, but is willing to spend £100 in order to save £150 in the future.
- The rich. Someone who can afford to spend money and is prepared to spend money in order to get something special, perhaps as a status thing.
The £200-£500, off the shelf, mass-market bat market will have all but died out. So you either sell a few bats and try to keep some money coming in, or live off the name you've build for 30 years and offer those with money something 'special'.
This ^ is bang on IMO.
Quite simply, sell 10 bats at £650 over a month to people with money burning a hole in their pocket or sell 26 @ £250 which would attract more regular customers(albeit a lot of people that don't have the income currently and aren't in the market for bats)
Whilst I don't completely agree with it and it is a ludicrous amount of money for a bat...If people are stupid enough to pay it let them
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A multitude of manufactures don’t use machinery in the manufacturing of there bats how do you define a multitude.
2-4-6 manufacturers just curious to know
I'd say only the small independent bat makers don't use CNC machines. All the big brands do and I'm absolutely fine with it. Technology should be used when its available.
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Also this is printed on every Gunn & Moore in the market.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4LLLwNf/Screenshot-20200526-015050.jpg)
I would once again like to draw everyone's attention to this. Remind me how much one of those player edition bats cost? Are they not CNCd? I personally have zero problem with it though. And yes the 133 quid keeley i bought last month is an absolute bargain to me. So i guess they dont always cost an arm
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Having been lucky enough to visit a few bat makers over the years now it comes down to scalability. Theres no way of making a bat by hand if you're doing serious volume.
Keeley have the old slazenger CNC that's got to be decades old by now, GM have an updated version of this to shape many bat profiles and B3 prob have an upgrade on what GM have due to the fact their founders were at GM beforehand. You then have the copy lathes to speed things up.
from my experience the bats at TK were part shaped on the CNC then finished by hand to shave the handle and other areas down before sanding, there's several videos of this online.
I used to source my bats from TK originally when I started as a brand having first had a bat experience with handle quality when sourcing from overseas. I moved away from them when more and more brands were using him as my USP has disappeared and I wasn't able to compete on price with brands with lower overheads and no VAT charges to consider.
The TK bats I've had have been pretty consistent in terms of performance Id say, which comes down to the skill of the batmaker when pressing them as the most important stage of the process IMO. Ive had laminate bats, Pro bats and various things in between.
As Tom touches on businesses in the cricket market are starved of customers right now and still have overheads to cover so any sales they can gain will help to keep them afloat. I read an article in the Cricketer last night that features World Class Willow, BTC and Garrard and Flack. 2 of these have home workshop set-ups so wont get any Gov help so have to fend for themselves.
Keeley are now in the B2C business where they have to factor in retail pricing to their prices, these means 2 sets of mark ups being applied to them in order for the brand and retailer to make a profit. This forces the prices up as a result....a well established sports brand owner once told me during my work experience within him in year 11 of school. "You can always mark some thing down in price, its very hard to mark something up and sell it!"
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The CNC or Hand Made debate is always interesting, personally I don't think it matters, I have had both types of bat and performance has been great in both etc... what I do think is perhaps ALL companies could be clearer on their manufacturing processes.
Where I do have an issue is prices, this is of any company though not just Keeley (M&H are just as bad). Any company that are charging £500+ for a bat is just scandalous.
The more you push the top end price of bats, the more the middle stretches, less people can afford kit, and drives people out of the game, which is a reason that often doesn't get talked about for cricket losing players.
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I’ll just leave this here...
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMgjRVH/C164-BC11-7-A89-4-C44-A6-B6-01-E8-B253-BBAB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8swKQ8rK) (https://i.postimg.cc/T360Q3BR/29701862-987-D-4510-9-EA4-9-E402-D792276.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdKXkmYT)
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Top end willow is becoming harder to find, it’s a supply and demand market as you can’t force trees to grow quicker!
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The below are representative of what I’ve always seen come off the CNC. Little bit more than just giving it a quick sand and buff before slapping some labels onto them.
I’d be interested to know what the output on an entirely hand shaped cleft to bat vs a CNC shaped cleft to bat is, if one can churn out 6 bats per day based upon an 8 hour day vs 12 per day for example.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yN6JYM3h/00-EEA935-6-E91-4361-99-AC-5752-A5669916.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3k6rtbBW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QhRsRWn/5-B44-B707-F048-4-F0-C-9461-E3751-D8-B0-C16.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8xwXz4r)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnBL3SbQ/90-E0-B49-A-221-C-45-EA-956-A-EFD43-B907-A45.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv64MNfV)
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CNC or Handmade is another debate. But the covid-19 offer of £650 was shocking.
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Top end willow is becoming harder to find, it’s a supply and demand market as you can’t force trees to grow quicker!
I completely understand the supply and demand of willow issue will bring prices up, like in any business.
But up to the prices we are seeing? Is that understandable or acceptable?
I mean on the M&H website they are selling a Harrow F100 for £400 and the size 4 is £350!!!!!!
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End of day when you have an established brand and if you have the demand there you can sell at what you want.
Think of designer clothing companies and stuff like that! £5 t-shirt with a logo for £50.
This is no different if people want to buy into a brand they will pay the price.
Yes £650 is madness to us on here but people will pay it. Same people who probs buy GN legends at £1000
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As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I don’t handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.
I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.
Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you don’t want to pay £600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.
Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.
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As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I don’t handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.
I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.
Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you don’t want to pay £600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.
Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.
Couldn't have said it better mate!
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So most manufacturers use cnc to roughly shape the bat. Are there cnc lathes in the industry which produce the finished product automatically, bar finishing and polishing? How about GM or Kookaburra? I don't think a rough shaping by cnc will make any difference to performance.
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So most manufacturers use cnc to roughly shape the bat. Are there cnc lathes in the industry which produce the finished product automatically, bar finishing and polishing? How about GM or Kookaburra? I don't think a rough shaping by cnc will make any difference to performance.
Performance is based on several factors
The cleft you are using
The pressing (key part if you don’t get that right then you won’t get performance)
Balance
GM use it to shape every bat in that model exactly the same. But they still make some final adjustments, albeit small. There’s is purely a retail reason and consistency in shape and probably why some people think they are hit and miss, but that’s down to the pressing in my opinion.
Kooks don’t cnc as far as I know. But there’s many ways to skin a cat. Doesn’t have to be a cnc. You can use other machines.
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As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I don’t handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.
I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.
Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you don’t want to pay £600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.
Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.
I think everyone is missing my point.
I have absolutely no problem with machinery and technology as a method of producing more bats. The caveat is that I want that to be advertised. GM and B3 both advertise it, you have put up Instagram videos of the CNC in action, I just find it morally wrong to advertise bats as handmade and not publicise the fact you are using a CNC in the process.
The pricing is entirely their prerogative, but I still think its distasteful to advertise something as a 'Covid sale' and then charge 650.
I don't think anyone has a problem with technology being used to speed up the process, my issue is the transparency.
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I think everyone is missing my point.
I have absolutely no problem with machinery and technology as a method of producing more bats. The caveat is that I want that to be advertised. GM and B3 both advertise it, you have put up Instagram videos of the CNC in action, I just find it morally wrong to advertise bats as handmade and not publicise the fact you are using a CNC in the process.
The pricing is entirely their prerogative, but I still think its distasteful to advertise something as a 'Covid sale' and then charge 650.
I don't think anyone has a problem with technology being used to speed up the process, my issue is the transparency.
For the 3rd time...
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4LLLwNf/Screenshot-20200526-015050.jpg)
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I am very glad some of the more established forum members have stepped in and spoken sense to this thread.
@Tom’s comment about the industry right now was spot on and it could really be just left there, however
A few points For me
If a business wants to apply a certain pricing strategy/business model. That is totally up to them and I wish them every luck. If you dont like it simply i wouldn’t Waste any time thinking about it let alone take time complaining about it on a forum...
I think it’s crazy and quite disrespectful for people to question their bat making ability. I have gone off Tk bats in the past and moved onto another maker who I found out subsequently tried to charge me £100 more for the exact same cleft as they offered to someone else. Did I write a post about it, no I just will never spend another penny with said brand. I have since moved back to TK bats and the quality of said bats is second to none.
If you also look at the pricing £650 for a top pro keeley isn’t that bad, providing you aren’t the average forum member who thinks a pro bat fit for kohli should cost £100ish. GM so called players editions are £650ish and I personally would choose a keeley every time out of the 2. What about a GN Legend £1000 for an Indian made stock bat. Not that I have anything against Indian made bats, I am probably one of the odd ones out on this forum as some of the Indian bats I have or seen personally I think are as good as anything out there.
Ok so onto the actual bats, TK’s are the best mass made bats within the UK no question and still a fair amount of skilled work is done by hand. I have had a completely hand made bat by Tim, well a hand operated machine cut the shoulders and a press pressed it but apart from that he made it completely... or is that not completely handmade...... now I’m confused 🤣🤣 should I be demanding a refund. I have also had many part cnc’d bats and has there been a difference in performance or quality. Absolutely not. The thing to also remember is willow is a natural product and you will get some variance. I have had one disappointing Tk bat and it was a black cat voodoo that weighed in at 2.5, so in hindsight would any 2.5 finished bat be that great..... since then I have had around 10-15 tk guns
Technology moves on and like Tom M said to make bats at the volume they do would be crazy to not use a cnc to spit out a rough template. No means is the bat finished there still plenty of hard and skilled work is needed.
Anyways have a great day everyone
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For the 3rd time...
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4LLLwNf/Screenshot-20200526-015050.jpg)
I don't think you understand what you're actually achieving by posting that.
All of GMs bats for years have been advertised as DXM technology which is their CNC process. There are YouTube videos of GM making bats on a CNC. That's pretty transparent if you ask me.
As is this Instagram post:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvb11zXk/Screenshot-20200526-092541-com-instagram-android.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJ1JHC88)
Then if you actually read my post you'd realise that I am asking for transparency to know as a consumer how my bat is made.
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I am very glad some of the more established forum members have stepped in and spoken sense to this thread.
@Tom’s comment about the industry right now was spot on and it could really be just left there, however
A few points For me
If a business wants to apply a certain pricing strategy/business model. That is totally up to them and I wish them every luck. If you dont like it simply i wouldn’t Waste any time thinking about it let alone take time complaining about it on a forum...
I think it’s crazy and quite disrespectful for people to question their bat making ability. I have gone off Tk bats in the past and moved onto another maker who I found out subsequently tried to charge me £100 more for the exact same cleft as they offered to someone else. Did I write a post about it, no I just will never spend another penny with said brand. I have since moved back to TK bats and the quality of said bats is second to none.
If you also look at the pricing £650 for a top pro keeley isn’t that bad, providing you aren’t the average forum member who thinks a pro bat fit for kohli should cost £100ish. GM so called players editions are £650ish and I personally would choose a keeley every time out of the 2. What about a GN Legend £1000 for an Indian made stock bat. Not that I have anything against Indian made bats, I am probably one of the odd ones out on this forum as some of the Indian bats I have or seen personally I think are as good as anything out there.
Ok so onto the actual bats, TK’s are the best mass made bats within the UK no question and still a fair amount of skilled work is done by hand. I have had a completely hand made bat by Tim, well a hand operated machine cut the shoulders and a press pressed it but apart from that he made it completely... or is that not completely handmade...... now I’m confused 🤣🤣 should I be demanding a refund. I have also had many part cnc’d bats and has there been a difference in performance or quality. Absolutely not. The thing to also remember is willow is a natural product and you will get some variance. I have had one disappointing Tk bat and it was a black cat voodoo that weighed in at 2.5, so in hindsight would any 2.5 finished bat be that great..... since then I have had around 10-15 tk guns
Technology moves on and like Tom M said to make bats at the volume they do would be crazy to not use a cnc to spit out a rough template. No means is the bat finished there still plenty of hard and skilled work is needed.
Anyways have a great day everyone
@Canners
Mike you know full well that I have no problem paying for the right bat, but, with that said this is a public forum that is designed for people to voice their opinions, the fact that you have chosen to not do so is your choice.
I also chose keeley as they are the ones that have been the biggest culprits of trying to profiteer from this pandemic.
I could sit here and list multiple brands that I have a problem with and therefore wouldn't buy from but that would be a rather boring thread.
I think it's pretty disgusting that they are trying to charge 300 quid more to the general public on their Instagram than they have offered to other people.
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I think everyone is missing my point.
I have absolutely no problem with machinery and technology as a method of producing more bats. The caveat is that I want that to be advertised. GM and B3 both advertise it, you have put up Instagram videos of the CNC in action, I just find it morally wrong to advertise bats as handmade and not publicise the fact you are using a CNC in the process.
The pricing is entirely their prerogative, but I still think its distasteful to advertise something as a 'Covid sale' and then charge 650.
I don't think anyone has a problem with technology being used to speed up the process, my issue is the transparency.
The point you are missing leechy is that if the bat isn’t a completely cncd shapes (b3 and gm is more like 90+% Finished Then yes it should be mentioned) then why would I/they declare it?
Mine are probably 75% refined but there’s still a lot of work to be done. I still shape every bats profile, shape the backs so they are full or concaved, adjust the balance and pick up on them, shape the handle etc
If that’s still not handmade then I have completely misunderstood the whole meaning of it.
But GM are stating since. They are aren’t saying that bat actual bat is completely handmade.
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I think the point is that the naive buyer would assume it was mostly hand made from that label. Not everyone would go searching for more information on their posts
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Can I ask a genuine question to the bat makers/manufacturers/sponsors on the forum.
If Keeley/M&H (or whoever) are charging £650 for there very highest bat and you are charging say £300 quid less, is the difference the quality of willow they have had the pick of or the price they are putting their brand name on? Or both? Etc...
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The point you are missing leechy is that if the bat isn’t a completely cncd shapes (b3 and gm is more like 90+% Finished Then yes it should be mentioned) then why would I/they declare it?
Mine are probably 75% refined but there’s still a lot of work to be done. I still shape every bats profile, shape the backs so they are full or concaved, adjust the balance and pick up on them, shape the handle etc
If that’s still not handmade then I have completely misunderstood the whole meaning of it.
But GM are stating since. They are aren’t saying that bat actual bat is completely handmade.
Because its important for the consumer to know, I don't think there are many industries where you can hide a massive part of your manufacturing process.
Also you have mentioned it, on Instagram very openly, so I don't really understand why it's an issue for you?
All I'm asking for is transparency, and if everyone thinks that's wrong, then clearly we all just have different standards.
I think that if a CNC is used for the bulk of the work and the bat is hand finished that is an important distinction to make.
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I think that if a CNC is used for the bulk of the work and the bat is hand finished that is an important distinction to make.
Why? Is a batmaker who uses a CNC/copy lathe/bandsaw as part of their process somehow inferior to one who starts with half a tree and uses only a drawknife?
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Can I ask a genuine question to the bat makers/manufacturers/sponsors on the forum.
If Keeley/M&H (or whoever) are charging £650 for there very highest bat and you are charging say £300 quid less, is the difference the quality of willow they have had the pick of or the price they are putting their brand name on? Or both? Etc...
You are paying for that brands name. All willow growers are essentially roughly the same price per cleft. But there’s lots of other things to factor in.
Overheads, (staff, rent etc)
Sponsored players (need to make that money back somewhere if they are being paid, who else do you think pays for their kit)
Material costs
Profits (they are a business after all)
Mine are cheaper because my overheads aren’t huge, I don’t pay sponsored players. I don’t have the brand reputation so I can’t warrant a high price, but I make enough to live off put food on the table, but I won’t be a millionaire
Should brands be pushing sales during the pandemic, that’s the real question here. Personally, I haven’t because it might seem desperate and devalue my brands morals, in a time when there’s uncertainty around jobs and pay. Do I blame them... no because they still need a cash flow coming in to pay for everything. Do you think a pro won’t take there couple of k sponsorship money because of the pandemic... absolutely not.
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Why?
I think you know the argument I'm making and you are deliberately presenting a farcical situation.
At no stage have I said it is inferior, I as a consumer just think there should be transparency. I don't understand how more people aren't agreeing that transparency should be at the forefront of the cricket industry.
Because as psi said, a naive buyer would assume the bat is completely handmade from start to finish (excluding to facetious bandsaw argument) and I think transparency in manufacturing is important.
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Because as psi said, a naive buyer would assume the bat is completely handmade from start to finish (excluding to facetious bandsaw argument) and I think transparency in manufacturing is important.
No mate, I mean why is it important? Dropping the B3 type approach out, why is it important to know whether your batmaker has used a CNC to speed things up or if they just went at a raw cleft with hand tools? The bandsaw thing isnt facetious, I'm just using it to illustrate the point that noone makes fully by hand.
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No mate, I mean why is it important? Dropping the B3 type approach out, why is it important to know whether your batmaker has used a CNC to speed things up or if they just went at a raw cleft with hand tools?
I really don't understand why people think transparency is not important.
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No mate, I mean why is it important? Dropping the B3 type approach out, why is it important to know whether your batmaker has used a CNC to speed things up or if they just went at a raw cleft with hand tools? The bandsaw thing isnt facetious, I'm just using it to illustrate the point that noone makes fully by hand.
A bandsaw is necessary for accuracy and quality control. A CNC isn't. That's why the argument is facetious and farcical.
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A bandsaw is necessary for accuracy and quality control. A CNC isn't. That's why the argument is facetious and farcical.
Id think about that statement again, the very nature of the CNC is to allow quality control and repetition due to its accuracy.
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This is a bit of an odd thread.
Batmakers have the right to charge what they think their products are worth.
Customers can either pay the money or buy a bat with different shiny stickers.
In this world of technology and high labour costs, of course most batmakers will use machinery. I mean who would use an hand saw over a chain saw etc.
Could some batmakers be clearer about where their bats came from and how they are made, probably.
None of these are new complaints.
What I would say is we need more willow trees planted...!
I wouldn't want to be a cricket retailer at the best of times, it must be impossible right now.
All I can say is, the sun is out go and book a net with a mate and hit some balls.
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Whether a CNC is used to get an initial shape or not to me isn't an issue, as this has to be done to get the volume of bats made. Otherwise you just simply couldn't make enough bats as a larger manufacturer, unless you outsourced production to India maybe and then you couldn't advertise 'Made in the UK'.
@buddyb yes I still consider yours handmade, as I do any brand who makes bats by CNC or similar and then refines the shape, balance, handle etc (to name a few I think, H4L, Kippax, Jedi etc etc)
Is it wrong not to advertise CNC use? Not in my opinion as from what I've seen it gets to a rough shape and just takes away a laborious part of the process. I've seen people use electric hands planes instead of draw knives for this same reason, so essentially this doesn't make them handmade? The skill is inbthe pressing obviously, but then also in the 'second stage' shaping. This gives the finished shape and balance. I spoke to a batmaker recently who said 'making a bat from raw cleft by hand is a pain I'm the a@se tbh and takes too long'.
In terms of price I agree that £650 is a lot for a bat, but as people have stated that's a choice and it's down to the individual. There's plenty of cheaper, top quality bats out there.
I've only had one keeley (BB) and it was a great bat. Do I think it's better than others? No. In fact I make mine from clefts which I chose over a few other (what people would call) more established suppliers due to them performing as well if not better imo. But people will pay for the name and reputation, as Keeley have been around for years and obviously know what they're doing. You've got to earn that reputation.
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A bandsaw is necessary for accuracy and quality control. A CNC isn't. That's why the argument is facetious and farcical.
If you'd really like me to be facetious I'd point out that a well-run CNC is a significantly better tool for both accuracy and quality control than a bandsaw ;)
Noone (or noone sensible) uses a band saw for accuracy, the blade is flexible. Plenty of batmakers do use them for processing clefts though, which they aren't 'necessary' for.
Saw pedantry aside, I just don't really understand what you're after? Are you suggesting batmakers like Keeley/Hunts/buddyb/Salix/Jedi/Chase/ etc etc are misleading customers if they don't advertise their cleft processing methods?
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Id think about that statement again, the very nature of the CNC is to allow quality control and repetition due to its accuracy.
The key word is necessary Tom.
A CNC is not necessary.
A bandsaw is.
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The key word is necessary Tom.
A CNC is not necessary.
A bandsaw is.
What is a bandsaw necessary for? :)
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If you'd really like me to be facetious I'd point out that a well-run CNC is a significantly better tool for both accuracy and quality control than a bandsaw ;)
Noone (or noone sensible) uses a band saw for accuracy, the blade is flexible. Plenty of batmakers do use them for processing clefts though, which they aren't 'necessary' for.
Saw pedantry aside, I just don't really understand what you're after? Are you suggesting batmakers like Keeley/Hunts/buddyb/Salix/Jedi/Chase/ etc etc are misleading customers if they don't advertise their cleft processing methods?
A bandsaw fitted with a jig for repetition in handle splicing is clearly more accurate than a coping saw.
I really don't know how much clearer I have to be... There is no transparency in the industry, and that is something that personally I think needs to change.
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What is a bandsaw necessary for? :)
Fitting a handle with accuracy and precision. A coping saw would be the alternative which clearly isn't as accurate as you can't have a fixed jig meaning you get the same shape each time.
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I really don't understand why people think transparency is not important.
Because the majority of bat buyers couldn't care less how their bat is made.
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Can someone shed some light on this, Is keeley only using CNC approach on retail bats (batches the are sold to regular consumers) and Completely hand making the bats for the pro’s and his sponsored players. Perhaps that is why there is very little transparency there. I think CNC or handmade it shouldn’t make a difference, pressing and balancing is done by hand.
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Because the majority of bat buyers couldn't care less how their bat is made.
So that makes it right? That's an interesting argument if ever I've seen one.
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So that makes it right? That's an interesting argument if ever I've seen one.
It's not an argument or an opinion, it's reality.
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Because the majority of bat buyers couldn't care less how their bat is made.
@skip1973
Does using sweatshop manufacturing not matter then because the vast majority of people don't care where or how their new Nike shoes are made?
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Fitting a handle with accuracy and precision. A coping saw would be the alternative which clearly isn't as accurate as you can't have a fixed jig meaning you get the same shape each time.
Both a bandsaw and a coping saw would be sub optimal choices for that. A skilled carpenter will be far more accurate with a hand saw than a band saw, so why shouldn't a batmaker use a hand saw? In the subcontinent some brands do.
For transparency - I've just had a look at the Keeley website. I couldn't find any mention of hand made at all, but there are plenty of photos of part shaped bats off the CNC. What's the transparency problem, I honestly don't get it. Should they have a flowchart?
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Both a bandsaw and a coping saw would be sub optimal choices for that. A skilled carpenter will be far more accurate with a hand saw than a band saw, so why shouldn't a batmaker use a hand saw? In the subcontinent some brands do.
For transparency - I've just had a look at the Keeley website. I couldn't find any mention of hand made at all, but there are plenty of photos of part shaped bats off the CNC. What's the transparency problem, I honestly don't get it. Should they have a flowchart?
You couldn't find any mention of handmade?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz1kHY4L/Screenshot-20200525-220503-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wtxGs2Vj)
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you lot crack me up so many bat makers on here.
Moaning about if a CNC is a bit like saying Why do you drive a Car if you can walk everywhere.
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you lot crack me up so many bat makers on here.
Moaning about if a CNC is a bit like saying Why do you drive a Car if you can walk everywhere.
Once again, I've said ad nauseam that I don't care if a CNC is used if it transparent.
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you lot crack me up so many bat makers on here.
Moaning about if a CNC is a bit like saying Why do you drive a Car if you can walk everywhere.
😆 Have to agree. If you're dealing with larger volumes it's a necessity.
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Can I ask a genuine question to the bat makers/manufacturers/sponsors on the forum.
If Keeley/M&H (or whoever) are charging £650 for there very highest bat and you are charging say £300 quid less, is the difference the quality of willow they have had the pick of or the price they are putting their brand name on? Or both? Etc...
My guess is this is a simple business/distribution structure point.
You are a manufacturer/brand. The odds are the vast majority of your sales (if you are of any size) come through independent retailers rather than direct to consumer (D2C). If you sell products D2C at the same price that retailers are charging it has two impacts:
1) Your 'RRP' (a nonsense concept anyway) is suddenly completely unsupportable, as if you don't sell at that price, why would it have any basis in reality. This means that the whole selling tactic of 'discount to RRP' is suddenly extinguished for both yourself and your customers (retailers). You've also immediately chopped 20% or so off the maximum price that anyone could charge for your products, including you. Hardly great business sense.
2) You're now trying to attract the same customers (end consumers) that your far larger customers (retailers) are trying to attract. You are competing directly with them. There is therefore a substantial risk that retailers reduce their order volumes and/or stop trading with you entirely. So you might gain a few direct customers, but lose several massive orders from your customers that actually pay your bills. Again not great business sense.
The final point is opportunity - if you list your products on a pretty low cost website (which you need anyway for general brand purposes) at a price point that makes you crazy money but doesn't hack off your big customers, and people pay it - then happy days, why wouldn't you!
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You couldn't find any mention of handmade?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz1kHY4L/Screenshot-20200525-220503-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wtxGs2Vj)
😂😂😂 Ok I missed that one! They don't have a section proclaiming their '100% hand made bats' or something like that though so where's the transparency problem? CNC use doesn't invalidate the hand work that is done, and they're not hiding the CNC.
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Good point Dan, if transparency/misleading customers is an issue anywhere it's with certain brands who don't make their own bats - far more dodgy things go on there than batmakers manufacturing methods!
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@DorsetDan
That post reinforced my point, there needs to be more transparency across the board, and this is just the first issue of many.
G1+ SUPER ULTRA RESERVE PRO edition willow is another,
Graded on performance is another.
Personally, I don't have a problem with people calling their bats handmade if they are CNCd but I do have an issue if the CNC process isn't advertised or at least transparent.
I have asked Tim what his process is, and he said every bat is handmade by him, no mention of a CNC.
That's the issue.
No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.
@edge I did also mention that in my first post about sticker brands not being entirely truthful
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I have to say due to this forum would I only know about CNC, you ask 95% of my club what a CNC is they’d look blankly at you, if Keeley and others stated the use of CNC people wouldn’t actually know what that meant in my opinion, they don’t advertise as 100% hand crafted I personally think if everyone stated the CNC process normal bat buyers wouldn’t care, forum people may care
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@edge I did also mention that in my first post about sticker brands not being entirely truthful
G1+ SUPER ULTRA RESERVE PRO edition willow is another,
Graded on performance is another.
Personally, I don't have a problem with people calling their bats handmade if they are CNCd but I do have an issue if the CNC process isn't advertised or at least transparent.
I have asked Tim what his process is, and he said every bat is handmade by him, no mention of a CNC.
That's the issue.
No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.
To be honest I've always thought anyone who bought one of those had it coming...
Is it untrue to say every bat is handmade by him? Assuming he does actually do them all himself then I wouldn't say it's unfair to say that. I just don't understand your hangup on CNC.
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😂😂😂 Ok I missed that one! They don't have a section proclaiming their '100% hand made bats' or something like that though so where's the transparency problem? CNC use doesn't invalidate the hand work that is done, and they're not hiding the CNC.
I think being economical with the truth (not hiding the CNC but not publicising) is as bad as hiding it. If you ask RJ, what his bat making process is, I hope he would say: 'the bats are CNCd to a rough shape then hand made and refined using traditional hand tools' because that's honest and transparent which by all accounts he is.
I have asked Dan at chase, and Kippax too and they all include machining in the process, as do H4l.
If I asked keeley the same question (as I have) you'd just get: 'the bats are all handmade using traditional methods'
That's the difference.
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It doesn’t matter if the average punter knows or cares about CNC machines. You cant say handmade if it’s not. You cant say made in England/Australia if its not...etc.
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To be honest I've always thought anyone who bought one of those had it coming...
Is it untrue to say every bat is handmade by him? Assuming he does actually do them all himself then I wouldn't say it's unfair to say that. I just don't understand your hangup on CNC.
Maybe I'm not getting my point across, I don't have a problem with CNC or any other mechanised process, but when brands are being economical with the truth when discussing their manufacturing process, I. E. Not divulging the entire process, that in my opinion isn't right.
People would still buy keeley bats if he mentioned the CNC, so why hide it?
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Unless there's a technical legal definition for handmade that they are failing to meet, then they absolutely can. How much "Made in X" stuff is "processed" in the subcontinent or China?
It might be a bit distasteful to some but if you're getting a quality bat at a price you are happy to pay then you're doing alright IMO. Would you pay extra for the same bat if someone told you it had been hand sanded rather than machine?
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If you use a mechanical press is a bat still handmade?
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I think being economical with the truth (not hiding the CNC but not publicising) is as bad as hiding it. If you ask RJ, what his bat making process is, I hope he would say: 'the bats are CNCd to a rough shape then hand made and refined using traditional hand tools' because that's honest and transparent which by all accounts he is.
I have asked Dan at chase, and Kippax too and they all include machining in the process, as do H4l.
If I asked keeley the same question (as I have) you'd just get: 'the bats are all handmade using traditional methods'
That's the difference.
In short I would say they are all handmade, but if you asked what my processes were, I wouldn’t hide it.
Would you say that people who make from partmades can’t disclose their bats are handmade then? As how are they to know what processes are used before they receive that bat. Can they even call themselves bat makers, because they didn’t make the actual bat from start finish. I can put together ikea furniture, but I don’t class myself as a furniture maker. But that’s a completely different subject.
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It doesn’t matter if the average punter knows or cares about CNC machines. You cant say handmade if it’s not. You cant say made in England/Australia if its not...etc.
How is it not hand made? It's not like you put a bit of wood in and it comes out a fully finished bat is it?
80% of the work is still to do.
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I guess the issue thats come up a lot is what amount of machine work is allowed or can be used before you claim your fully handmade.
The pics of Salix and Hunts I’m not sure if Tom put them up as a point to show that a bandsaw is used to take some wood out of the back to reduce the amount of work a drawknife does for example.
This has come up time and time again and i guess for me either way if using a bandsaw to work our of the back of a bat or a spindle to take wood out of the shoulders this is just a technology advancement from years gone by and to get the orders our for shops and online shops etc its needed.
I guess for me i would class Salix, Chase to name a couple as fully handmade as there is no CAD aided design process. The raw cleft is shaped entirely by hand albeit with the use of some machinery but you have to pay attention to every element to get the right outcome at the end.
The CAD design used by GM, B3 and kippax that iv seen on videos still requires a fair amount of hand work but its less than is involved in the top two brands for example.
You can argue all day over the costing, should a bat thats 50% done on a CNC machine for example carry the same price or a higher price than a bat thats 75% done by hand?? No idea thats down to the buyer.
There are loyalties that people have to brands and people and I’m no different in that sense but i do think some brands really do take the Michael with how they advertise there brand or the strap lines that they use but as has been said the vast majority of players don’t care about how the bats made or where it comes from as long as it A) falls into there budget and B) has nice shine stickers or if younger there favourite player on TV is using it
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If you use a mechanical press is a bat still handmade?
I don't see the point in flippant arguments but I'll answer anyway.
Most presses are hand operated in some capacity if not all presses I've seen. Most bats are pressed individually by someone operating the press throughout the process. That's a big difference to sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins.
Also there is no way you could get enough pressure through a bat to give it the required performance without using a press.
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In short I would say they are all handmade, but if you asked what my processes were, I wouldn’t hide it.
Would you say that people who make from partmades can’t disclose their bats are handmade then? As how are they to know what processes are used before they receive that bat. Can they even call themselves bat makers, because they didn’t make the actual bat from start finish. I can put together ikea furniture, but I don’t class myself as a furniture maker. But that’s a completely different subject.
That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.
Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.
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That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.
Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.
Not technically true but close. I used to use a bandsaw but now have a table saw and saw for the handles. Both have purpose built jigs on for accuracy.
Whilst a bandsaw can be an inaccurate piece of equipment, set up properly with the right blade, it can also be a very accurate. Not to the cnc level but in combination with the jig it can be spot on.
I also use a spindle moulder for the shoulder shaping, along with the press obviously.
I’m not going to enter the debate or query what’s been said before but wanted to clarify a couple of points .
In order to make money, improve your products and efficiency etc you need to make changes. Bats 50 years ago weren’t fully handmade. The old videos show a lot of machining to get them down to a rough shape which was then finished off using hand tools. Modern version is the cnc/ copy lathe etc. Brands need to constantly evolve. Chase has his system, salix machine heavily to a rough shape and have recently introduced a concaving system for their bats via machine. There will always be a grey area or a slight lack of transparency on some things. I don’t have issues with cnc part or full, my concern would be people claiming to do things they don’t. Brands who claim U.K. made or they the press when they don’t etc etc. But that’s been discussed before and won’t even change. For us in the know then we may see issue with certain things but to the general public they don’t know/ don’t care.
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That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.
Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.
A bat maker is someone who does the whole process from start to finish. Someone who uses a part made isn’t in my opinion. But it’s similar principles you are labelling to top those who use machinery in there processes. A furniture maker who puts the table legs on a copy lathe to turn the leg, you are now say can’t call that table handmade because he didn’t turn the legs himself. Every manufacturer uses machinery in some shape or form. I use to do everything buy hand from the raw cleft. I was told by a surgeon to either give up batmaking or think smart. No large manufacturer could possibly turn out 40k bats a year being fully handmade start to finish. Unless you have a factory in India and pay them £3 a day because the labour costs are so ridiculously cheap.
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I can imagine that the likes of GM, who are owned by Unicorn, have someone who deals with the ‘legal’ side to ensure that there are no loopholes where cricket fanatics can potentially argue that their product isn’t fully handmade. You’ll see with the established brands that there is a number of them that have someone who deals with the legal side and covers all that ground.
The Keeley guys have been around for years and years, absolutely and have built their reputation. That said, the brand itself is in its infancy and, I can imagine, doesn’t consist of a relatively large team. As someone mentioned, you can email them and I can imagine you’d get a very transparent response about the process. Or even pop down, of course when social distancing is removed, and from what I know, Tim would be more than happy to have a beer with you and show you how everything works, as I imagine many bat makers would be keen to do. The ones that aren’t are the ones you need to worry about.
Cricket is a mass market, but there aren’t that many people who care massively for the kit they use. Does it pick up nicely? Does it ping? Yes, great, I’ll have it.There are plenty of pros who feel like that and also many players in the league that I play in and in my club who only really care for those two things. If it flies, people will pay.
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sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins..
There is a bit more to it than that..!
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I don't see the point in flippant arguments but I'll answer anyway.
Most presses are hand operated in some capacity if not all presses I've seen. Most bats are pressed individually by someone operating the press throughout the process. That's a big difference to sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins.
Also there is no way you could get enough pressure through a bat to give it the required performance without using a press.
So the design of the bat was done by hand and the code used to programme the cnc machine was done by hand etc etc.
They are just different skills.
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There is a bit more to it than that..!
Of course there is, but once you have started the process off you don't need to do anything. That's what I was trying to get at, which isn't the same as pressing.
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@DorsetDan
No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.
I reckon there are a few. Golf clubs are just as much smoke and mirrors.
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@LEACHY48 If you look at any industry where handmade comes at a premium (whether in price or in stature) there are debates and discussions around what is better, and what constitutes handmade. Handmade shoes (https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2017/11/what-is-a-handmade-shoe.html) and handmade furniture (http://www.scottishfurnituremakers.org.uk/materials/maker-vs-machine/) are just two examples
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@LEACHY48 If you look at any industry where handmade comes at a premium (whether in price or in stature) there are debates and discussions around what is better, and what constitutes handmade. Handmade shoes ([url]https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2017/11/what-is-a-handmade-shoe.html[/url]) and handmade furniture ([url]http://www.scottishfurnituremakers.org.uk/materials/maker-vs-machine/[/url]) are just two examples
Agreed. However there is transparency in their manufacturing process, you know which is handmade and which isn't. I'm not saying one is better than the other, that's never been my point, initially I was just moaning about the lack of transparency.
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Agreed. However there is transparency in their manufacturing process, you know which is handmade and which isn't. I'm not saying one is better than the other, that's never been my point, initially I was just moaning about the lack of transparency.
Really? https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2017/11/lies-in-the-shoe-industry-handmade-middlemen-top-leather-etc.html (https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2017/11/lies-in-the-shoe-industry-handmade-middlemen-top-leather-etc.html)
Spend anytime immersed in any of these industries and you'll see they have the exact same issues. Cricket is not exceptional, the mechanisation of manual tasks and growth of small businesses leads to these grey areas.
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Fair enough, I stand corrected on what I said then. I stand by my argument though, in that these grey areas shouldn't exist. In any industry. @Tom
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Tim is a busy dude. Basing a lot on him not divulging the entire manufacturing process of the bats in one quick email is quite a jump. Just let it go.... or try and get him on the phone posing as trading standards.... or hunt him down Rogue Traders stylee :D
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/14/article-2159188-034C461B000005DC-987_634x421.jpg)
Get that pair onto the Ebay "Pro bat" sellers 😂
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@LEACHY48 I don't actually disagree with you, but equally don't think cricket as an industry has more dishonest people than any others.
I think all manufacturers should be more open about their processes, but we are a unique breed on here. We seek out that information, the rest of the cricket world really don't care. They like a bat, they use a bat. In the same way when you buy shoes. The footwear industry is actually really good comparison – 'top grade leather', 'handmade', 'made in italy'. But at the end of the day, almost all of us we want a nice pair of shoes we buy Clark's, the equivalent of Slazenger. Or if we feel like showing off, we buy Ferragamo. Footwear's M&H.
It is worth saying that Keeley is about the only large-scale factory you can go into as a regular punter and visit – they don't really hide the CNC, they just don't shout about it. Keeley and GM saying that they're handcrafted is their genuine belief that they still are.
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I am very glad some of the more established forum members have stepped in and spoken sense to this thread.
@Tom’s comment about the industry right now was spot on and it could really be just left there, however
A few points For me
If a business wants to apply a certain pricing strategy/business model. That is totally up to them and I wish them every luck. If you dont like it simply i wouldn’t Waste any time thinking about it let alone take time complaining about it on a forum...
I think it’s crazy and quite disrespectful for people to question their bat making ability. I have gone off Tk bats in the past and moved onto another maker who I found out subsequently tried to charge me £100 more for the exact same cleft as they offered to someone else. Did I write a post about it, no I just will never spend another penny with said brand. I have since moved back to TK bats and the quality of said bats is second to none.
If you also look at the pricing £650 for a top pro keeley isn’t that bad, providing you aren’t the average forum member who thinks a pro bat fit for kohli should cost £100ish. GM so called players editions are £650ish and I personally would choose a keeley every time out of the 2. What about a GN Legend £1000 for an Indian made stock bat. Not that I have anything against Indian made bats, I am probably one of the odd ones out on this forum as some of the Indian bats I have or seen personally I think are as good as anything out there.
Ok so onto the actual bats, TK’s are the best mass made bats within the UK no question and still a fair amount of skilled work is done by hand. I have had a completely hand made bat by Tim, well a hand operated machine cut the shoulders and a press pressed it but apart from that he made it completely... or is that not completely handmade...... now I’m confused 🤣🤣 should I be demanding a refund. I have also had many part cnc’d bats and has there been a difference in performance or quality. Absolutely not. The thing to also remember is willow is a natural product and you will get some variance. I have had one disappointing Tk bat and it was a black cat voodoo that weighed in at 2.5, so in hindsight would any 2.5 finished bat be that great..... since then I have had around 10-15 tk guns
Technology moves on and like Tom M said to make bats at the volume they do would be crazy to not use a cnc to spit out a rough template. No means is the bat finished there still plenty of hard and skilled work is needed.
Anyways have a great day everyone
Bang on.
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I think if you see something in this day and age marketed as handmade its obvious at some point in the process a machine will have been involved, that doesn't mean its not handmade.
I don't see why any manufacturer has to state they use a cnc machine it's common knowledge or certainly doesn't take much looking to find out bat's are roughly shaped using a cnc machine by the majority of big brands.
The issue you have with price is relative from person to person to some people £650 is not a big amount to others it's enormous.
I think if a company was buying finished bat's blank and putting stickers on, then claiming they were hand making them or even making them then you'd be right to call them out on lack of transparency.
Is it not more wrong that pro players use a bat stickered up as something it's not, so when Joe public goes and drops a considerable sum of money thinking he's getting the same bat as his favourite player when infact it's nothing like. Is that not more of a problem than a bat put on a cnc machine to get a rough shape?
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:D :D :D
Only on CBF would such a thread exist.
I have no issue brands using cnc to do the grunt work and then focusing on finishing and pressing. As long as the finished bat is up to standard and people are happy to pay money for it...
I was really impressed how GM merge tech and traditional craft. I'm sure Keeley do similar (but I'm.nit paying 650 :D ).
And my favourite bat maker that I just keep going back to for various reasons JEDi. Uses a machine to do rough shaping but still has lots of work to do by hand.
Your money! Spend it where you feel comfortable... as someone pointed out earlier people dont care about sweatshops...so why is the average village cricketer going to care about cnc vs hand made. As long as the shiny stickers match their favourite players...
As long as we have variety to suit everyone ...not bothered..
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Ps does it matter to you if it was Nick or Tim who did the work?
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:D :D :D
Only on CBF would such a thread exist.
I have no issue brands using cnc to do the grunt work and then focusing on finishing and pressing. As long as the finished bat is up to standard and people are happy to pay money for it...
I was really impressed how GM merge tech and traditional craft. I'm sure Keeley do similar (but I'm.nit paying 650 :D ).
And my favourite bat maker that I just keep going back to for various reasons JEDi. Uses a machine to do rough shaping but still has lots of work to do by hand.
Your money! Spend it where you feel comfortable... as someone pointed out earlier people dont care about sweatshops...so why is the average village cricketer going to care about cnc vs hand made. As long as the shiny stickers match their favourite players...
As long as we have variety to suit everyone ...not bothered..
I have seen people spending more then £650 on those “sharpie“ pro bats. I know businesses are suffering all over the world and everyone is trying to maximize their profit to stay in business.
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I suppose some of the feelings of shock are related to the fact that their prices have just taken a huge jump overnight, with nothing really changing/improving with the products, but it’s obviously any companies right to do so if they adopt a new strategy, or need to make changes due to the current circumstances. If you spot a market for your current product with a bigger margin then that’s just good business sense, even if it does leave some of your loyal customers behind.
I’d obviously rather still be able to get a Keeley G1 for £300 than £650, I imagine most are the same :D
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I have seen people spending more then £650 on those “sharpie“ pro bats. I know businesses are suffering all over the world and everyone is trying to maximize their profit to stay in business.
As long as nobody is being misled or taken advantage of, I don't see an issue with selling anything at a premium price point. Business risks making no sales against the possible benefit of making a healthy profit, that's their decision.
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If you use a mechanical press is a bat still handmade?
Pretty sure I said that earlier 😜
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TK is the Don. All other opinions are null and void.
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I feel Keeley's (Tim & Nick) make a larger number of bats nowadays compared to when they were with Newbery.
Now, they also make for a lot of pro's who actually pay them (I know quite a few who pay them).
So, it narrows down to supply and demand. If a test cricketer comes to you and says "I need a top bat", they won't charge him 550 or 600 GBP instead it is fraction of that. But then they have other woods which they have to sell and make money out of.
So, that is where we get "substandard" bats which aren't living up to the brand name/values.
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Bats at 650 gbp is so far off my own spectrum I'm not even going to comment on it.
But on topic, back in the day....like a long way back....the Keeleys made pretty much all of Newberys range, grey Nichols at Robertsbridge, Duncan Fernley at Worcester and Slazenger-Yorkshire maybe, at least oop North
Let's say just for arguments sake they were the 'big 4'
At what point did CNC machines start to be involved in batmaking? The demand for sales probably is greater now, the ameteur cricketers have always needed to buy bats thou-so a substantial demand back then.
I ask purely because I don't know, to my knowledge these 'big 4' didn't have a cast of thousands hand carving bats from a raw cleft...
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This is an open forum where we all voice our opinion on all things cricket. Not sure how me doing this is a waste of time. In the same vein as your reply, if you don't like this thread you have the option to not read or reply.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion though.
But to answer your question, a multitude of manufacturers don't use heavy machining and don't charge an arm and a leg.
Agreed.
Feel free to air your opinions albeit unpopular. :)
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Here are my thoughts:
- I own and use Keeley made bats and haven't felt any difference compared to a non-CNC'ed bat.
- I love the thin handles.
- All of their bats I own have performed extremely well. So no complaints.
- Their bats are wildly popular now. I have been approached by guys in my league singing praises of Keeley bats and also selling them at a premium. So, word is definitely out. They are enjoying the same name recognition as Lavers once did (which peaked 4 ago years ago in my neck of the wood). Because of this popularity, I feel the prices are what they are right now.
- I bought and stocked on bats before prices sky rocketed. Even then, I paid quite a lot. I bought my first batch of Keeleys thru a vendor , lets call them floozi. I thought the prices were very high then. Now, I buy them from other sources and am paying 65% of what I paid to floozi. Nevertheless, they were good purchases and well timed as the same bats are selling for a lot more now.
- We will keep having these conversations unless we, the consumers, demand standardization of the bat specs. These prices are artificially jacked up to respond to market (pricing and branding) pressures. If every bat maker adhered to same standard of measuring performance and specs, these mystery/novelty pricing elements would disappear.
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bugger cricket and the equipment manufacturing - its a dead sport and a dying economic prospect - there is only one thing to worry about this summer
Jelle's Marble Runs and the 2020 Marble League - a proper sport where people don't moan about the 650 quid piece of plywood they decided was worth the cost!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g)
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A bat maker is someone who does the whole process from start to finish. Someone who uses a part made isn’t in my opinion. But it’s similar principles you are labelling to top those who use machinery in there processes. A furniture maker who puts the table legs on a copy lathe to turn the leg, you are now say can’t call that table handmade because he didn’t turn the legs himself. Every manufacturer uses machinery in some shape or form. I use to do everything buy hand from the raw cleft. I was told by a surgeon to either give up batmaking or think smart. No large manufacturer could possibly turn out 40k bats a year being fully handmade start to finish. Unless you have a factory in India and pay them £3 a day because the labour costs are so ridiculously cheap.
Kind of agree mate but I think most people nowadays would start with partmades to learn shaping doing before committing to a press etc. There's the financial side to this, but also learning and teaching yourself before getting to the pressing stage. Unfortunately that's the only way I see if getting into it.
My goal is to keep making bats which I'm confident are worth someone's hard earned cash, then hopefully progress to the full process. Not as straightforward as it sounds tho.
However when asked I am completely honest with this and say I make from part mades, I never say that I press myself and wouldn't until I do so.
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Having been to a fair few batmakers including gm and b3 plus having had a few Keeleys the difference in machining is stark
From what I remember Keeleys have old slaz 3 axis vertical spindle and b3 has newer version of same but gm have 5 axis super terminator machine so can produce more volume of bats at faster rate with interesting profiles
As far as I remember as well handmade was mostly hand made and handcrafted was using a machine like copy lathe or Cnc in process which is ok by me and I don’t see Nike or Adidas publishing how they make trainers or T-shirt’s so never got this debate but cricket is weird as people get backs up due to tradition and image of a podshaver whirling away like Julian Nikki champ but if making bulk no maker does that as just not cost effective
On pricing I agree it’s gone nuts but if people keep paying prices will keep going up
Remember that Newbury for £1000 limited edition and all 25 sold in first week, laver signature if people will pay stupid money then more power to brands
I personally shop around and tend to find what I want between £200-£350 for good bat for me
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As if said a plethora of times,
I do not care if a bat is CNC made. Absolutely no problem with it whatsoever, actually I quite like the accuracy it provides. However, what I don't like is a lack of transparency. That is all...for the umpteenth time.
I agree with many comments saying that it is the prerogative of the company, which it totally is, but that doesn't make it right that there is a 300-350 pound difference between 2 vendors of keeley Pro bats.its mugging the consumer off in my opinion.
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I’m fascinated by this in cricket as this argument crops up a lot
Do other industries advertise how products Are made? as I can’t see why you feel makers need to
Do you feel cheated by them using a machine or do you think they are misleading buyers by not blazing it across websites?
How do you propose they do this? Strict regulation which states if any machine used in process needs to say machine and hand made?
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The agricultural industry is very keen to provide provenance for their goods and in that regard I have a lot of time for leachy’s point of view. However, as CNC is accurate to a fraction of a mm I’m surprised that there is anything more than sanding to do once it’s finished. Perhaps the industry could increase production and reduce prices with better CAD drawings. 😃
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Wow. Went to bed in this thread had 2 pages and wake up it has 9 lol.
Clearly a nerve has been hit by bringing up Keeley (thou shalt not bad mouth Keeley)... I can see this thread about an Asian brand ending after 1 page.
So, what I gather @LEACHY48 is your problem is with transparency, it took me a while to get your point about this and it was only after reading your last post that I came to this realisation. Just my opinion but Keeley do Handcraft their bats to a degree so thats fine. I don't think Keeley or any batmaker needs to say they use a CNC machine but certainly shouldn't deny or be ashamed that they do which I'm sure they don't because I've been there and they showed me the process and they have photos of their machined clefts. I didn't know Salix use part mades, I do now.
I think you need a level of transparency that is higher than mine and thats totally fine, its your money mate.
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Just the hand-made debate has some mileage in it I think rather than it being particularly about Keeley. I'm fully in agreement with Leachy about the handles though - thin handles are vile and that would stop me buying a Keeley branded bat, regardless of everything else!
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As if there weren't enough flippant arguments being presented for a very simple point I was trying to make and have been trying to make all along.
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I was outraged when I bought my B3's that they needed a chap to shape the handle and finish the blade. The don't advertise that on their website and I feel conned to not have a 100% CAD/ CNC futuristic experience.
Hmmm you may have a point. An unnamed bat maker has made by humans on the back of the bats, total CNC would prevent a 12 year old girl getting a 2lb 15oz bat that picks up well.
:)
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Lolz. Just wait until cricket really embraces the future and goes carbon fibre... hand layup by skilled artisans vs 3d printed by mad robots, who do you want making your bats?
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Only if this CNC machine can score and field for me..my old knee can use some futuristic experience :)
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Wow. Went to bed in this thread had 2 pages and wake up it has 9 lol.
Clearly a nerve has been hit by bringing up Keeley (thou shalt not bad mouth Keeley)... I can see this thread about an Asian brand ending after 1 page.
So, what I gather @LEACHY48 is your problem is with transparency, it took me a while to get your point about this and it was only after reading your last post that I came to this realisation. Just my opinion but Keeley do Handcraft their bats to a degree so thats fine. I don't think Keeley or any batmaker needs to say they use a CNC machine but certainly shouldn't deny or be ashamed that they do which I'm sure they don't because I've been there and they showed me the process and they have photos of their machined clefts. I didn't know Salix use part mades, I do now.
I think you need a level of transparency that is higher than mine and thats totally fine, its your money mate.
Salix definitely don’t use part made bats!! They do however use a copy lathe/profiler which is what was referred to.
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This might be a dumb question, but why does it need to be advertised what percentage of the bat is shaped by hand or CNC? Does using a drawknife inject extra ping into a bat? I have heard phrases like “hundred percent handmade” and “CNC free” But I always ignore them.. Does it make one iota of difference what metal tool is being used to shave off extra wood?
Any reasonably skilled carpenter can copy any bat shape you show him.
The only part of bat making that actually makes a difference is the pressing and handling. I love the way Laver and Wood press and handle their bats - would i stop buying from them if they switch To CNC? Of course not. In fact i would be happier - because some of their bats show up with uneven edges!
If you want to shape bats by hand as a hobby, more power to you. If you want to make bats as a business, you’d be foolish to ignore the technological innovation out there and risk ending up like that grumpy xenophobic guy on YouTube/Facebook who claims all his 2lb12oz bats pick up lighter than 2lb8
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Salix definitely don’t use part made bats!! They do however use a copy lathe/profiler which is what was referred to.
Oh ok. So they have just part shaped all those bats in house? Sorry It just looked that way. My bad.
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here's something that i feel is dishonest in the cricket industry. brands should clearly specify the origin of manufacture of their bats. not that there is any problem with it. if i can wave around my "assembled in China" iphone and rock my "made in bangladesh" Adidas shirt, i have zero problems if my Kookaburra bat says made in India on it. there's nothing wrong with it but that is something i believe should clearly be mentioned. its usually present in softs but i genuinely feel brands are ashamed to say their bats are made in India
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They do in Australia, not sure if laws are different in UK.
Really? Do the indian made Kookas and Gray nics in the aussie range say they're made in india? I have a lot of problems with Pakistani bats and manufacturers but they do wear the "made in Pakistan" on every bat they make with pride
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A while back I heard a story about an induction course for graduates working for Bosch where they were asked what they sold to their customers. Someone volunteered the answer "drills" then a slide was put up showing a hole in a wall.
Cricket bats are a bit like that for me. It is up to the manufacturer to decide the best process to achieve the end result. As a consumer I am only interested in the outcome. I don't think I am being deceived if a manufacture decides to use a CNC machine as part of the process. I assume there was a time when all bats were sanded by hand. I wouldn't feel that a bat wasn't handmade if that job is done using a machine.
For me there are two areas where I think customers are being deceived: brands were the origin and maker of the bats is not disclosed; and grading of bats with the standard required of top grades being lowered whilst prices go up.
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I've had a long hard think and I'm not happy unless:
- The batmaker plants the willow trees by hand; shovelling dirt using hands and not shovels or any other equipment
- Uses brute strength to push the tree down and uproot it using bare hands
but will allow for using body weights and leaning on it
- Chopping the willow using karate chops
- Then leave it to dry in the open air
- FLying over and breaking the cane by hand and cork
- Once ready using sharp nails to shape the bat
- I also want natural glue for the handle fitting
- Hand sanding on a morning stubble
Anything else is second rate and not handmade! Don't accept anything else guys for handmade else you are being ripped off!
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Wow, what a thread.
I understand where your coming from @LEACHY48 , but the truth of the matter is every mass producing bat maker will be using either a cnc , copy lathe etc.. so in a batmakers eyes does it matter? All these shapes still need finishing/balancing
on another note i have seen a bat made completely by using machinery ( other than the handle shape). And To concave a bat completely by sander was impressive
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I've had a long hard think and I'm not happy unless:
- The batmaker plants the willow trees by hand; shovelling dirt using hands and not shovels or any other equipment
- Uses brute strength to push the tree down and uproot it using bare hands
but will allow for using body weights and leaning on it
- Chopping the willow using karate chops
- Then leave it to dry in the open air
- FLying over and breaking the cane by hand and cork
- Once ready using sharp nails to shape the bat
- I also want natural glue for the handle fitting
- Hand sanding on a morning stubble
Anything else is second rate and not handmade! Don't accept anything else guys for handmade else you are being ripped off!
Yet another flippant remark adding nothing to the topic. I'll repeat, for possibly the 1 millionth time...I don't have a problem with people using technology. I actually quite like the accuracy some technology provides. I dislike a lack of transparency... Is that so hard to get?
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Wow, what a thread.
I understand where your coming from @LEACHY48 , but the truth of the matter is every mass producing bat maker will be using either a cnc , copy lathe etc.. so in a batmakers eyes does it matter? All these shapes still need finishing/balancing
on another note i have seen a bat made completely by using machinery ( other than the handle shape). And To concave a bat completely by sander was impressive
I agree that many manufacturers do it, but again it comes back to transparency, as those that I listed previously are open about their process, others are not.
I agree that some manufacturers use technology very skillfully too.
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Yet another flippant remark adding nothing to the topic. I'll repeat, for possibly the 1 millionth time...I don't have a problem with people using technology. I actually quite like the accuracy some technology provides. I dislike a lack of transparency... Is that so hard to get?
Wasn't directed at you specifically ;) Just a bit of jest; not intended to offend anyone ...
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He's very easily offended - it's his height I'm afraid.
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As mentioned, I'm in favour of transparency – but from a manufacturers perspective. There's always question of how much you need to spell out your manufacturing process. When around ~90% of 'handmade' bats made in the UK are made with the input of either a copy lathe or CNC, do you really need to explain that? At what point does machine shaping input become synonymous with handmaking?
As mentioned, we don't feel the need to note the input of bandsaws or spindle moulders.
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I guess the question is: are they cheating by using and not disclosing technology? If so, why is that “unethical”? Can’t think of another industry where people get so upset about someone not disclosing what machines they’ve used. I think “handmade in England” is sufficiently accurate, and frankly nobody really cares. If it said “100 percent handmade” and used that label to extract a higher price, you would be justified in feeling some outrage.
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Anyone seen those overpriced pro bats on Instagram..... 😉🙃
They look unreal to me 🔥🔥🔥
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The Keeley factory is 5 miles from me. My FiL wants to buy my lad a new bat for Xmas, so I wandered down there this week. Tim spent an hour chatting/showing me around the whole place, including the CNC machine, describing what it does. He also said to bring my son on Saturday & he will pick/make a bat with him. All for a junior bat.
Considering I live in Robertsbridge, the home of GN, the 2 companies couldn't be further apart.
P.S. My FiLs other grandson lives in North Kent, and he took him to Salix for a bat recently, who did similar.
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Nice, I hope you got the 35% black Friday deal...
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Considering I live in Robertsbridge, the home of GN, the 2 companies couldn't be further apart.
Newbery used to be just along the road from the gn factory,, next to Oldwood surgery, before moving to the old train shed (now garden machine shop) before finally moving to Ashburnham and changing to Keeley Cricket.
Spent a some of my youth in the building next to the surgery, can still remember doing some binding and pressing there.
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Didn't John Newbery start the business while still working in the GN factory?
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The Keeley factory is 5 miles from me. My FiL wants to buy my lad a new bat for Xmas, so I wandered down there this week. Tim spent an hour chatting/showing me around the whole place, including the CNC machine, describing what it does. He also said to bring my son on Saturday & he will pick/make a bat with him. All for a junior bat.
Considering I live in Robertsbridge, the home of GN, the 2 companies couldn't be further apart.
P.S. My FiLs other grandson lives in North Kent, and he took him to Salix for a bat recently, who did similar.
Keeleys are very good to deal with! They will make a superb bat for you!
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Can I just say, TK does not over use a CNC, a rough / over sized shape is created however the actual finished shape is created by hand using many years of skill
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Well, we are now the proud owners of 2 Keeley bats. Joe had about 30 blank Harrows to choose from - different weights, shapes and grades. Tim spent 30 mins with us talking weights and styles. Joe found 2 he liked. TK mallet tested them & suggested the best one, which Joe knocked up a few balls with, and was very pleased with.
As it turned out it was G1, but the price we were offered was what I expected to get a G2 for. Complete choice of any Keeley Sticker set - he chose the Superior in white with Burgandy writing.
Being a kid in a sweetie shop, I couldn’t resist, and had a good rummage through all the G2/3 bats. The assortment of shapes/Hi &Lo middles/edges/profiles meant there was something for anyone. I selected 3 or 4 I liked the feel of, and I had a test of them with another bat maker called Tim (not TK this time as he was finishing a handle for a visiting pro). We found one that pinged beautifully & looks great. Unbelievably they had it as a G3 due to 50%+ heartwood (which I like) and a tiny blemish high on the blade. It’s got 15 tight grains & a big middle that goes very well.
I chose the Worx rainbow NHS stickers.
All in, personal handmade bats for mass market prices. We will return. What an amazing place.
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Well, we are now the proud owners of 2 Keeley bats. Joe had about 30 blank Harrows to choose from - different weights, shapes and grades. Tim spent 30 mins with us talking weights and styles. Joe found 2 he liked. TK mallet tested them & suggested the best one, which Joe knocked up a few balls with, and was very pleased with.
As it turned out it was G1, but the price we were offered was what I expected to get a G2 for. Complete choice of any Keeley Sticker set - he chose the Superior in white with Burgandy writing.
Being a kid in a sweetie shop, I couldn’t resist, and had a good rummage through all the G2/3 bats. The assortment of shapes/Hi &Lo middles/edges/profiles meant there was something for anyone. I selected 3 or 4 I liked the feel of, and I had a test of them with another bat maker called Tim (not TK this time as he was finishing a handle for a visiting pro). We found one that pinged beautifully & looks great. Unbelievably they had it as a G3 due to 50%+ heartwood (which I like) and a tiny blemish high on the blade. It’s got 15 tight grains & a big middle that goes very well.
I chose the Worx rainbow NHS stickers.
All in, personal handmade bats for mass market prices. We will return. What an amazing place.
Sounds a great day!
Not a fan of this 650 Pro bat malarkey...but if I lived close enough and had a chance to do what you did I'd be over there rummaging away for a beauty in a lower grade.
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Well, we are now the proud owners of 2 Keeley bats. Joe had about 30 blank Harrows to choose from - different weights, shapes and grades. Tim spent 30 mins with us talking weights and styles. Joe found 2 he liked. TK mallet tested them & suggested the best one, which Joe knocked up a few balls with, and was very pleased with.
As it turned out it was G1, but the price we were offered was what I expected to get a G2 for. Complete choice of any Keeley Sticker set - he chose the Superior in white with Burgandy writing.
Being a kid in a sweetie shop, I couldn’t resist, and had a good rummage through all the G2/3 bats. The assortment of shapes/Hi &Lo middles/edges/profiles meant there was something for anyone. I selected 3 or 4 I liked the feel of, and I had a test of them with another bat maker called Tim (not TK this time as he was finishing a handle for a visiting pro). We found one that pinged beautifully & looks great. Unbelievably they had it as a G3 due to 50%+ heartwood (which I like) and a tiny blemish high on the blade. It’s got 15 tight grains & a big middle that goes very well.
I chose the Worx rainbow NHS stickers.
All in, personal handmade bats for mass market prices. We will return. What an amazing place.
Love hearing about stories like this, adding a personal touch like Tim does can mean so much when buying a cricket bat.