Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: norbs on March 09, 2010, 09:16:41 PM
-
Q: Swing speed or wood mass which is best?
-
Depends on your style of play surely?
-
less wood mass would mean higher bat speed. But less momentum. I would take bat speed over wood mass
-
and how quick the bowling is and the deck.
i use under 2lb 8oz on a hard true deck and around 2lb 9oz on a dog just my preference and my style
-
I'd take wood mass lol
-
less wood mass would mean higher bat speed. But less momentum. I would take bat speed over wood mass
You sure Liam ?
-
For me its speed, i tend to check my shots anyway along the ground and consider myself to be a nudger and nurdler so its speed.
-
You sure Liam ?
You may as well offer an answer as opposed to answering a question with a question!
-
Q: Swing speed or wood mass which is best?
You mention both mass and volume, which are you talking about as both are different?
-
Bat speed.
-
Bat speed.
:D I could put my house on your answer, Tom :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
-
a quicker bat less weight has a more force potential than a heavier bat thrown slower
-
You sure Liam ?
on what part. i prefer bat speed
-
Am I the only one to prefer wood mass? :L
-
it a know fact that a lighter bat thrown quicker has a greater force potential than a heavier bat thrown at the same pressure but slower due to weight.
-
tom with your goose you should know the stuff about this somebody showed me on my level 2 course when referring to buying bats for young players
-
You mention both mass and volume, which are you talking about as both are different?
an engineer in the making.... sorry mate Mass
-
it a know fact that a lighter bat thrown quicker has a greater force potential than a heavier bat thrown at the same pressure but slower due to weight.
you are assuming you swing both bat weights at the same speed?
-
no on a drop test only the heavier bat slows it's motion on the up and down swing if the same muscle strength was used.
-
i think the best way of describing it is when a lot of Pakistan pro's come across and use big 3lb bats in league cricket as my old one did he always said he does not need bat speed on club wickets in England unless the other pro was genuine quick he just said he could miss hit a ball with a bigger bat at a slower pace and it would fly over the ropes were if he brought his bat from Pakistan which was a 2lb 6oz pick he would not hit it off the square.
as being my point i use different weight depending on the type of wicket
-
no on a drop test only the heavier bat slows it's motion on the up and down swing if the same muscle strength was used.
drop test i.e a ball droped from a predefined height?
-
no the bat moves from a predefined way over 300 times to also take into muscle fatigue and other factors.
bit to technical for me as a non batmaker or anything i have only seen it done at a science thing.
-
norb's are you related to the other norb's
-
Both for me are important to me, i like a good size bat in a light weight which gives enough bat speed for me to be comfortable. I don't like a smaller shape which offers better bat speed as i find its less suitable to my game and i also find smaller shapes can be less forgiving.
Same Norbs id say ?
-
an engineer in the making.... sorry mate Mass
Ill carry on trying to be smart then... I would guess that there is a point where you have the perfect mass that allows a perfect amount of bat speed? If you tested loads, would make a bell shaped curve on the graph?!
-
you would have thought so but i wonder what mad science goes into some players getting the maximum weight for the minimum muscle fatigue
maybe called low density cleft????
i think everybody is different like bat shapes
i would like to understand more about tom's (goose) and the science behind his bat's
-
Yep it is me but I can banter more on this account
Ok we digress please continue... not going to say if there is theoretical or pratical answer to this question as it is a good question for the time being
-
i would like to understand more about tom's (goose) and the science behind his bat's
here you go http://www.mongoosecricket.com/skin/frontend/default/default/images/pages/deep_science.pdf
-
cheers Andy
-
In my view i'd want a bigger bat for hitting slow bowling and a lighter bat for quick bowling. So you would have more momentum to hit the spinners further and more control of the bat for the quick stuff. Mark ramps and adam holioak both use heavier bats for t20 for more momentum.
-
For everyone there's an ideal weight where you don't lose too much on the size of the bat but you can swing the bat fastest.
-
The problem with swing speed increase via a very low centre of gravity is that the pick up is terrible, this massive increase in time taken to pick up the bat counters and negates the speed swing increase. Then the problem is that unless you are coming straight down the change in direction is harder and therefore longer. My MMi3 is 2.13 dead weight but has a much heavier fell than my 3.1 match bat and is harder to play round the wicket with. If swing speed was a big factor in increased performance we would all be using 3lb+ bats, we don't as the multiple downsides to using a heavy bats outweigh the positive.
Bat mass is important as the lower density bats perform better than standard density.
-
I go for bat speed everytime as i find when a ball is coming at you from a fast bowler it can turn and move or swing etc in flight before or after the bounce so i prefer to have the necessary speed to get the bat onto the ball thus enableing a good defensive or oofensive shot.
-
Ok now you've have some views and opinions a great way to generate swing speeds is to lower the mass but that isnt necessarily mass in the hitting area.... So still a bit of a columdrum so carry on as you where :D
-
If swing speed was a big factor in increased performance we would all be using 3lb+ bats, we don't as the multiple downsides to using a heavy bats outweigh the positive..
That doesn't make sense to me, a heavier bat means slower swing speed so why would we want a heavier bat to get a quicker swing speed?
-
Surely this is about each individual attaining an equillibrium between his size/style and the bat swing speed/weight - there cannot be one answer to this as it will differ between each person you ask. There may be a precise point on a graph which says this mass and this swing speed is most advantageous but i'm sure this is what we are already using as batmakers have been honing this balance for the last century or so.
Personally - i always favour a bat with a less mass and what for me feels like a quicker swing speed as a result.
Taken to extremes - i would always pick up the bat weighing 2lb because i know i can use it, whereas i know i cannot use a bat weighing 3lb 8.
-
That doesn't make sense to me, a heavier bat means slower swing speed so why would we want a heavier bat to get a quicker swing speed?
Nope Tom, not disagreeing with you but, but I think I said a great way to generate swing speed is to lower the mass...
-
PS - I prefer Norbs, that SAF fella was a little serious for my liking :D
-
PS - I prefer Norbs, that SAF fella was a little serious for my liking :D
Norbs has more questions then answers !!!!
-
Norbs, welcome to the forum
oh
Surely if this question is aimed at creating the ultimate bat – we have a problem, which is different players hit the ball out of different areas of the bat – so to create the ultimate bat – there is no solution, without making something individually designed for the player – and you haven’t even mentioned the variable of the pitch yet (slow and low, two paced, variable bounce, or hard and bouncy...). Further, bat speed is dependent on the batsman, in the same way swing speed is in golf – so it is difficult to have a massive impact on that with a cricket bat, I have tried using a heavier bat and lighter bat and timing is the most important thing. Try comparing Tiger Woods to Ian Woosnam.
However, surely we are better looking at the type of bowling that you are trying to hit – given that variations of pace are coming into the game more than ever, as well as the continued prevalence of the yorker, you need a bat which you can manipulate the low full toss for four, or the miss judged slower ball into a gap for 2, whilst still being able to smash the real rubbish out of the ground.
Not sure I have been any help here. On that basis you should use the biggest bat you can comfortable control, so for some it will be a 3lbs railway sleeper, whilst for others it will be a 2lbs 6oz wand.
The key then must become the length of the middle and the rebound qualities (how well the bat is pressed) as well as the natural timing of the player. If we all had the natural timing of VVS then cricket would be a much easier game...
I am going to stop now as I have no real idea what I am talking about.
-
Andy - anything to add to this, would be good to hear your opinion and the science behind it.
-
I reckon it all depends on the batsman's mind. If you can judge a ball before it bounces (how it will deviate/bounce etc.) then you should go for the heavier bat, because if anything, you will almost certainly need to adjust only slightly.
If you prefer to leave it late, and take more time to assess the ball and pick your spot, then go for a lighter bat, so that the bat speed can be generated quicker, if a bit less than the heavier bat, but you'll be able to play it into the gap.
The bat speed will probably be only a little different; I think it depends on the strength and judgement of the batsman. There is probably no right or wrong answer, just personal preference/suitability.
Just my 2 pence.
Shiv
-
I reckon it all depends on the batsman's mind. If you can judge a ball before it bounces (how it will deviate/bounce etc.) then you should go for the heavier bat, because if anything, you will almost certainly need to adjust only slightly.
If you prefer to leave it late, and take more time to assess the ball and pick your spot, then go for a lighter bat, so that the bat speed can be generated quicker, if a bit less than the heavier bat, but you'll be able to play it into the gap.
The bat speed will probably be only a little different; I think it depends on the strength and judgement of the batsman. There is probably no right or wrong answer, just personal preference/suitability.
Just my 2 pence.
Shiv
this is quite an interesting thought - because you could read this as a potential way for an out of form batsman to opt for a lighter bat to help him (or her) to recover form.
I also think confedence comes into it. Neither Hayden or Symonds have had the confidence to bring out the 'goose yet, so they have opted for something they are more used to.
It is also notable that the players that have the most success seem to still play orthodox shots - which suggests that the move too far away from the orthodox bat is a little unnecessary.
Looking forward to seeing the Black Cat Joker too...
-
When it comes down to it i'd rather i light bat that i could play with but maybe not hit it miles than a huge lump i could hardly lift but could potentially fly... But it is down to the player i suppose.
The question which do i think is scientifically better i'd have to go with bat speed, not sure why just seems to make sense.
-
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
There is a point where (High Mass x Low Velocity) is equivalent to (Low Mass x High Velocity).
I think its all about controlling the blade of the bat. which one does for you is an another matter
-
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
There is a point where (High Mass x Low Velocity) is equivalent to (Low Mass x High Velocity).
I think its all about controlling the blade of the bat. which one does for you is an another matter
that's what I was trying to say!!
-
Andy - anything to add to this, would be good to hear your opinion and the science behind it.
It is a complex question this one!!!
-
Personal preference at the end of the day, I prefer bat volume but I can see why most would take speed.
-
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
There is a point where (High Mass x Low Velocity) is equivalent to (Low Mass x High Velocity).
I think its all about controlling the blade of the bat. which one does for you is an another matter
Batted ball speed = q x Velocity of ball + (1 + q)Velocity of bat
-
what does q = ?
quality of wood from the SAF Richter scale?
-
what does q = ?
quality of wood from the SAF Richter scale?
nope, q is the Bouncabilty of a bat or the Apparent Coefficient of Restitution [ACoR]
-
q = kettle drum?
-
nope, q is the Bouncabilty of a bat or the Apparent Coefficient of Restitution [ACoR]
So....
Which Cricket bat is better, stick with me here….
[A Big Note: Made up numbers for q and velocity but proper calculations with those numbers]
A normal cricket bat our datum point….
q = 0.45
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 99.5
Now add 10% on the cricket bat mass resulting in a slightly lower bat speed lets say 10% slower and lets keep it 10% and increase in q [bouncabilty] which is Apparent CoR or [ACOR]
So
q = 0.5
Vel of bat = 45
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 97.5
Ok let assume you have a bat and the swing weight is the same as first bat but has more mass therefore a higher q [ACOR]
q = 0.5
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 105
-----
There is another caveat here though
-
surely "quantum of ping" or "quop"
loving the science though Norbs
-
Hurry up with the caveat, the suspense is killing me!
-
Hurry up with the caveat, the suspense is killing me!
So what do those theoretical values tell us…
Swing speed offset against bat weight if you plotted it on a graph is on curve, slowly raises and plato’s and then slowly drops off.
Therefore there is a range of bat weights that with good pickup will allow you to have the same reaction time and swing speed due to the weight distribution in the bat
Mass behind the sweet spot [hopefully in the main hitting area] will be ideal especially if the swing weight of the bat means you are hitting the ball at close to maximum speeds in the position and batting shapes you normally hit a ball at…
Does this mean there is an optimum weight for everyone, depending on their strength?
Yes this optimum weight would be where they could swing the bat fastest without to much compromise on size of the bat.
Ok Willow is organic a live piece of timber and you will never really know how a bat will go until it is used. Yes it is complex due to the numerous varibles associated to the timber and person using it and level at which it is all used. [As a little note: it is even more complex then this, it has been dumbed down quite a lot]
Finally…..
You don’t always slog the ball and I will agree with you pratical, theoretical and variation on ball, bat and bowling speeds doesn’t make it conclusive but you can get a good baseline and it makes for good read!!!!
-
So....
Which Cricket bat is better, stick with me here….
[A Big Note: Made up numbers for q and velocity but proper calculations with those numbers]
A normal cricket bat our datum point….
q = 0.45
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 99.5
Now add 10% on the cricket bat mass resulting in a slightly lower bat speed lets say 10% slower and lets keep it 10% and increase in q [bouncabilty] which is Apparent CoR or [ACOR]
So
q = 0.5
Vel of bat = 45
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 97.5
Ok let assume you have a bat and the swing weight is the same as first bat but has more mass therefore a higher q [ACOR]
q = 0.5
Vel of Bat = 50
Vel of ball = 60
Ball exit speed is 105
-----
There is another caveat here though
yeah, thats not right though norbs is it, at the same speed a more massive bat will produce a higher exit velocity, this question is about the resultant momentum vector. p=mv... and above has no Mass in the calculation.
-
I just try and smash the red thing
-
yeah, thats not right though norbs is it, at the same speed a more massive bat will produce a higher exit velocity, this question is about the resultant momentum vector. p=mv... and above has no Mass in the calculation.
CoR relates to momentum?
-
More or less. CoR provides the variation on the velocity caused by an inelastic impact, so effectively adds into the conservation of momentum equation as follows:
(ma+mb)va = maua + mbub + mbCr(ua+ub)
-
More or less. CoR provides the variation on the velocity caused by an inelastic impact, so effectively adds into the conservation of momentum equation as follows:
(ma+mb)va = maua + mbub + mbCr(ua+ub)
That's what I calculated.
-
Which element of the equation is the offset spine?
-
I should have put an exclamation after my last post instead of a question mark. Mass is taken into consideration in the CoR equation
Which element of the equation is the offset spine?
It is related to CoR based on the fundamental node of vibration I'm glad you asked....
-
I did reply to this fully but it either got lost or pulled, either way dont see what COR has to do with the org question.
With out the detailed explination maths wise not much differance, practically slightly more mass is easier to get a higher exit V.
-
Good to see Norbs about for these questions
-
I did reply to this fully but it either got lost or pulled, either way dont see what COR has to do with the org question.
With out the detailed explination maths wise not much differance, practically slightly more mass is easier to get a higher exit V.
CoR is related to lots of things but ultimately it is about rebound so it directly related to the question volume or swing speed.... sometimes I wonder what people read I said the same thing about volume
So to reiterate CoR is related to momentum and therefore the velocities are related to mass in the answer....
Before you say I haven't got it right do some checking yourself
Finally if you look at Vectors as you state... what relationship does that have seeing as there will be shift of xxxxxxxxxx as you swing the bat?
-
I think SAF should do a bat called 'The Alchemist', as they seem to use all this science to turn a piece of willow in to cricket bat gold :)
Seriously, I love the amount of thought that Norbs puts into how a cricket bat works, and can't wait to own my own SAF one day
-
i want this one
(http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab.jpg)
(http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab1.jpg)
(http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab2.jpg)
(http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab3.jpg)
(http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab4.jpg)
[/quote]
-
CoR is related to lots of things but ultimately it is about rebound so it directly related to the question volume or swing speed.... sometimes I wonder what people read I said the same thing about volume
So to reiterate CoR is related to momentum and therefore the velocities are related to mass in the answer....
Before you say I haven't got it right do some checking yourself
Finally if you look at Vectors as you state... what relationship does that have seeing as there will be shift of xxxxxxxxxx as you swing the bat?
Sorry norbs, not saying you're wrong, I still dont understand or see how mass is related to CoR, I get that it's added to the momentum equations to account for inelastic collisions, like tim2000s said, but that then includes the masses of the objects.
Anyway, no worries, not the end of the world, i think we get to the same conclusion, I guess I'll keep looking into it! :)
-
Sorry norbs, not saying you're wrong, I still dont understand or see how mass is related to CoR, I get that it's added to the momentum equations to account for inelastic collisions, like tim2000s said, but that then includes the masses of the objects.
Anyway, no worries, not the end of the world, i think we get to the same conclusion, I guess I'll keep looking into it! :)
CoR is basically the speed of bat [at impact point] and ball after collision / the speed of bat [at impact] before the collision
Swing weight which determines the speed of the bat is based on the mass moment of inertia [therefore mass is part of the calculation]
CoR also takes into consideration, the energy losses
So for example....
When swinging a bat, the fastest point on the bat will be the toe. So you'd assume that would be the fastest exit speed. But as we know strong vibrations are generated for impacts near the toe plus it is generally thin and therefore makes it less effective. This is transposed into CoR, bouncabilty or ping if you will
-
i want this one
([url]http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab2.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab3.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.safbats.co.uk/Vid/saffab4.jpg[/url])
i'll second that! it looks massive for the weight
-
Andy all this detail you have calculated is fascinating to an analytical mind like mine, but real world, do you think it makes all that much difference? We see mass produced bats (made both here and Asia) which are most certainly not designed based on this theory and formulae yet still perform brilliantly. I don't doubt the validity of the research, nor the results and theories found therein, but have you found the real world improvement in performance to be such that genuine claims can be made?
I think those of us who are a bit world weary and sceptical about the latest claims made about the latest mass produced bats have come to the conclusion that actually, edge size, density, degree level physics research etc are far less important than having a bat that feels right when we pick it up. A bat that feels comfortable, a bat with no aspects with which we are unhappy. If that happens to be a bat with a modern shape, so be it. If it happens to be a bat steeped in tradition, so be it.
-
Andy all this detail you have calculated is fascinating to an analytical mind like mine, but real world, do you think it makes all that much difference? We see mass produced bats (made both here and Asia) which are most certainly not designed based on this theory and formulae yet still perform brilliantly. I don't doubt the validity of the research, nor the results and theories found therein, but have you found the real world improvement in performance to be such that genuine claims can be made?
I think those of us who are a bit world weary and sceptical about the latest claims made about the latest mass produced bats have come to the conclusion that actually, edge size, density, degree level physics research etc are far less important than having a bat that feels right when we pick it up. A bat that feels comfortable, a bat with no aspects with which we are unhappy. If that happens to be a bat with a modern shape, so be it. If it happens to be a bat steeped in tradition, so be it.
There are a number of things that help me. Understanding why bats perform and how, allows me to create shapes and have a good idea what makes them tick and what variations I can do with those shapes. It also gave me a better insight into willow and therefore the pressing of that willow. I didn't want to get into this and not really understand what was going on with the bat and why, it makes me feel great deal more comfortable with what I do.
The differences I think are based on translating that theoretical knowledge into those performance areas. By genuine claims I assume you mean some type of lab testing against other bats. In that case nope it hasn't been done, there has been no point do to this for 2 reasons. Since I've been doing this, I have never stated that any of the bats created are better by x% then anyone else's bat. That isn't what I do or why I do it, I'm not in a bun fight here with anyone, I respect all the guys that make there own. Secondly, as stated before I'm comfortable with the bat shapes produced and that makes it a lot easier to do my own thing, that is, the theoretical and translating that to the practical [making me a bit of geek but I dont mind that]
Ok Mr World Weary ;), we are all skeptical it is in our nature with all those "to good to be true" claims. At the end of the day a lot this edge size, density, research is down to helping you make a decision based on what you like. I am funnily enough in agreement with you, the bat you use has to be right for you. Is that bat comfortable, yes, do I like the look of it ,does it make me feel confident, yes, finally, test it for performance. Tick all of those and you'll be very happy. Those things are what I aim to achieve based on knowing how to balance and press a shape that has been designed from theoretical principles
I really hope that made sense
Norbs
-
Very good Norbs....
i'm going with Mass as the biggest sixes i have hit are with my, H4l moster bat which weighs in about 2.11 now, and my M&H Retro which was also about 2.11, both massive bats.....
but the hardest i have ever hit a ball was with my 2.9 Talisman, i could quite easily have killed the umpire if he wasnt so quick to duck out of the way..... The thing is the pressing on the pink Talisman is unreal and anyone who has seen it and tapped it up agrees..........
So now i just need to find a bat that is mahoosive for the weight, alows me to generate maximum swing speed and is pressed to perfection..... The search continues ;)
-
More or less. CoR provides the variation on the velocity caused by an inelastic impact, so effectively adds into the conservation of momentum equation as follows:
(ma+mb)va = maua + mbub + mbCr(ua+ub) = Canners Dream Bat
Should be quite easy to make what with all the calculations and science
-
haha
i think this would be everyones dream bat.............
-
well Canners, Buzz's dream bat will be arriving soon and I am sure I will let you look at it in the barn (but as Anna Kournikova says - you can look, but you can't afford ;) )
-
If its anywhere near as sexy as Miss Kournikova i'm robbing it ;)