Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: jonny77 on November 29, 2022, 09:57:43 PM
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Fairly quiet time on the forum, but @golders post on the GM Hypa thread got me thinking and didn't want to derail that thread. So thought I'd start this one and hopefully get people talking....
@golders comment...
If only you could spawn that unicorn 2’8/9 gauge filler every single time mate. Must be tougher for batmakers now what with the gauge-everyone wants one with max specs at light weights!
My thoughts...
Imo it's driving batmaking in the wrong direction. Largely specs over substance, just to meet a demand which is built on the idea that bigger is ultimately better. I had a conversation with an online retailer via Instagram recently who argued companies were doing the right thing by narrowing, over drying etc etc, as they were just giving people what they wanted, big bats at lighter weights more often. I can't say I agree, as for me it's just detrimental to the product.
Willow is in really high demand worldwide, but yet large parts of the industry are making bats which won't last as long, so willow will be in even greater demand. Consumers get what they want with big edge bats etc more common, but end up buying more often as they break quicker. Ultimately they pay more as willow becomes more expensive (due to demand) and so therefore pay higher prices more often too. It's crazy when you think about it really!
Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the current trends, what effects it's having and where people see it going?
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Willow is in really high demand worldwide, but yet large parts of the industry are making bats which won't last as long, so willow will be in even greater demand. Consumers get what they want with big edge bats etc more common, but end up buying more often as they break quicker. Ultimately they pay more as willow becomes more expensive (due to demand) and so therefore pay higher prices more often too. It's crazy when you think about it really!
Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the current trends, what effects it's having and where people see it going?
1. Isn't "global" inflation driving the prices up for everything?
2. Let's put the rising prices due to expensive freight aside...
It'd be interesting to find out exact year-over-year demand increase of cricket bats. Also, in which markets are we seeing this demand? How's the market doing in India? Is it the largest importer of English willow? Are cricket bat prices rising or falling in India? Pre-inflation and pre-pandemic, prices of bats made in India was cheaper than UK/AUS and quality was very good - nice ping/performance. PAK made bats vary in price depending on brand, market, etc.
3. Lets say that the price continues to climb and many young players are priced out of the game. Two things are possible: a:) sport shrinks; b:); alternative materials would emerge (something that I have talked about in the past) such as aluminium, non-English willow, heck even polymer.
4. I don't have the numbers but I think the only growing market for cricket is Asia. If prices do grow out of control, people there could look at alternative materials sooner than UK/AUS. And, I really hope they do that. This willow monopoly serves only one business entity and we all know who that is!
5. At the lower, non pro-levels, non-willow options should be encouraged. That will keep the sport alive. If the sport of cricket falls into oblivion, it'd because of religious adherence to traditions. With shorter attention spans, shrinking interest in physical activities, and rising interest in meta/virtual/video games , cricket admins needs to make changes at the lower levels of the game to attract new players. It is hard as it is. Throw in expensive bats, equipment in the mix, we have far too many discouraging factors for young people. ICC/MCC really need to have a deeper look at this.
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If you review prices uk wise GM are incredible value and not narrowing at the lower end …
They provide good bats at Great value , even with inflation the last 10 years they are still so competitive ..
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In my opinion, greed is killing this sport. Asian bats don’t last long because they are very drying them. They have little to zero customer service or any sort of money back warranty. I have been using UK/Aus made bats for years and find them nightmarish to get them match ready but they do last. My B3 that I bought used from eBay in 2016 still going strong.
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If you review prices uk wise GM are incredible value and not narrowing at the lower end …
They provide good bats at Great value , even with inflation the last 10 years they are still so competitive ..
Not really answering the question i asked mate tbh. I agree GM make great bats and offer some value options. They do however charge a huge premium for their 'low density' options and Players bats. Going back to my point around the issues with modern trends. You yourself stated that even on a Signature at 2lbs 9oz with no concaving you'd expect 37mm edges?
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Think it's also partly a symptom of the disposable consumerism we've gotten used to. You see it with clothes, wear it once and chuck it, and it's creeping in to other things. Cheap Indian/Pakistani made bat for half a season, get another, half a season use and then repeat.
A lot of people just don't value longevity and build quality any more.
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The GM bats are not huge by any stretch
It’s only a new bat that’s come this year that is
That’s called the brava … I believe that’s circa 39 mm edge and 63 spine …
Is the brava considered low density … it probably is ..
The Hypa 37 mm edges and what’s it got a 60 spine and a thick handle is that considered big these days . I’m sure their usual weight is around 2.10 and they are not over dried . For the price of circa 160 they are a bargain ..
GM player bats are expensive but lower priced than Indian players
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For what it’s worth from my tiny participation in bat sales I would say 70% of people no matter what I say or explain will always demand specs over anything else and that just seems to be the trend.
Now I don’t know at all about total prices but there is a huge discrepancy between bats with me for example charging under £300 for a G1 and for example GM charging £750 for a players both of which are G1 as there is no higher grade end of. Now lots of variables come into this mainly lots more overheads but at volume of orders vs mark up I’m guessing the profit margin in those bats is now far more than 5 years ago.
The tricks that are now common place amongst certain brands from a moral standing in my opinion are wrong, the descriptions don’t state Harrow width, sloping edges, dried to within an inch of life left so you are getting good time not a long time bat but the fact is outside of this forum 90% either don’t care, aren’t aware or not bothered as long as they get what they believe will make there game better.
As for going forward I personally don’t feel much if anything will it change, the rules and bat gauge regulations now stipulate max specs so that restricts innovation and what can be done that hasn’t?? The idea that after hundreds of years the MCC that govern cricket will allow other materials to be used just won’t happen.
As for pricing and demand it will not change nothing ever does
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Agree it’s not a fair playing field with all these tricks bay makers do
I know you two don’t do this Harrow width but other uk bay makers perhaps do
GM don’t either from what I have seen
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In my opinion smaller bat makers don't have the drying capacity like bigger manufacturers do, especially in the UK and they can't make decent spec bats in a large volume. Yes cheaper handles and a bit of narrowing is common these days but Keeley does narrowing on international player bats too, so i don't think its a huge deal. Most people on here, and in general don't have the patience or time for a small harder pressed bat to open up taking months. Imagine having to face 2000+ balls to open up a bat and get it close to match ready. Players who are playing longer formats, I suppose they don't necessarily need a 'big' bat because there's no need to score runs at 130+ SR but majority are playing shorter formats and prefer the bigger bats and the confidence it brings. If bigger bats didn't have an advantage(to a certain extent of course) you wouldn't see almost all top players using max spec bats.
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The GM bats are not huge by any stretch
It’s only a new bat that’s come this year that is
That’s called the brava … I believe that’s circa 39 mm edge and 63 spine …
Is the brava considered low density … it probably is ..
The Hypa 37 mm edges and what’s it got a 60 spine and a thick handle is that considered big these days . I’m sure their usual weight is around 2.10 and they are not over dried . For the price of circa 160 they are a bargain ..
GM player bats are expensive but lower priced than Indian players
The Brava is a flat face right? To allow for bigger edges.
EDIT - I agree with the directions Jonny is going towards above, but that said I still want unicorn bats when I buy a new one, but that's likely just the forums influence!
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I'm not sure about trends, but I'm always interested in where bat shapes are going in the future. I realise that the gauge has limited what can be done to a certain extent, but I think that there are still probably a few different avenues that could be tried out. Of course, whether people would buy them is another matter! I've linked to it before I think, but in this Masters thesis there are a few different examples shown (with loads more calculated but not shown) of shapes designed by artifical intelligence:
https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0392675
Here are a few grabs of the sort of thing I mean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXpb2CJY/3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDx0Rg7Z/1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zn42Bsf1/2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Many of these shapes would take longer than usual to make by hand, but would be quick for a CNC. Most of us can probably imagine how bad some of these shapes might actually feel to use, which is where I would love a master bat maker to take some of these ideas, and make them actually good to use.
I also have other ideas for a VERY different bat, that meets all the laws, but would need a CNC guru to make it work. It would be pretty ugly to look at too, and so would need some pretty special marketing to make people want to buy it.
I don't want to dereail the thread, but one thing that I worry about is the impact of climate change. There are obviously more important things, but if we consider just the effect on cricket bat willow, in the short term I guess that all those lovely narrow grained bats will disappear, as growing seasons lengthen and the grains get wider. Will this also have an effect on density, or will it still vary tree to tree? In the longer term, will there be a change in the growing locations for the willow, and the overall sustainability of this wood?
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I don't post much on here but yes cost are going up as in every thing .. and all I would say big brands have to charge more few things they have huge over heads lots of wages to pay for staff and pros .. unlike me I just have me to pay so I can see why .. you pay your money take your pick
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@jonny77 Jonny, I buy a lot of bats as you know. To be perfectly honest to answer your question I couldn't care less about specs on a bat. If the bat had 20mm edges and 59mm spine and pinged like crazy that's all I care about. I care more about handle shape and size and pick up. As long as the bat performs that is the only criteria.
JT
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You’re right JT however I think even you like that big shape brava :)
But I agree fundamentally with you
I don’t go for massive specs either but sometimes the visual helps a lot
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In my opinion smaller bat makers don't have the drying capacity like bigger manufacturers do, especially in the UK and they can't make decent spec bats in a large volume. Yes cheaper handles and a bit of narrowing is common these days but Keeley does narrowing on international player bats too, so i don't think its a huge deal. Most people on here, and in general don't have the patience or time for a small harder pressed bat to open up taking months. Imagine having to face 2000+ balls to open up a bat and get it close to match ready. Players who are playing longer formats, I suppose they don't necessarily need a 'big' bat because there's no need to score runs at 130+ SR but majority are playing shorter formats and prefer the bigger bats and the confidence it brings. If bigger bats didn't have an advantage(to a certain extent of course) you wouldn't see almost all top players using max spec bats.
Interesting. Who are you talking about @Ajdal when you mention drying capacity? Are you saying GM, GN, Keeley are drying willow out more than others as they have the ability to do so? Most smaller makers as you say won't have drying facilities, but the willow they receive will be dried to an industry standard by the willow supplier generally?
In terms of your point on the Pro's. Give me a gauge filler and a central contract then! 😆 Joking aside, I agree it maybe a visual thing obviously to breed confidence. However, imo the big difference between the pro's and us is more on talent, ability, skillset, practice, strength and conditioning rather than the bats. Certainly that's the view of the ones I've spoken with. The game and there players have changed, but people were still hitting bombs with toothpicks back in the day.
The guy who hits the biggest and and more consistently at my club used to use a 30mm edge bat which was 2lbs 7oz and hit it a long way. He bought a bat from me at the start of last season too, hit a ton with it in 40 odd balls within the first month of having it. Some huge hits too. Not sure he'd faced 2000 balls before then or not, but highly doubt it. I used a few brands before i started making my own and never found any bst ever needed that amount of time personally, but that's just my experience. I appreciate everyone is different.
I just worry as @Jimbo mentioned, that there is this throw away mentality in society maybe. Which you'd think isn't sustainable long term, environmentally or economically. Unless we find an alternative raw material, then cricket bats will change beyond what we know now completely.
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@jonny77 Jonny, I buy a lot of bats as you know. To be perfectly honest to answer your question I couldn't care less about specs on a bat. If the bat had 20mm edges and 59mm spine and pinged like crazy that's all I care about. I care more about handle shape and size and pick up. As long as the bat performs that is the only criteria.
JT
Agree mate. If it pings, feels good, picks up well and will give you enough use, imo are the key points.
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The Brava is a flat face right? To allow for bigger edges.
EDIT - I agree with the directions Jonny is going towards above, but that said I still want unicorn bats when I buy a new one, but that's likely just the forums influence!
Do you think that's based on them performing better factually, anecdotally, them inspiring onfidence in you or as you say, more down to conditioning?
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Away from bat shapes and trends.
I think a huge selling point and positive is companies that offer Klarna or similar. With costs rising as mentioned to the idea to pay stuff off monthly rather than in one go is very appealing.
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Away from bat shapes and trends.
I think a huge selling point and positive is companies that offer Klarna or similar. With costs rising as mentioned to the idea to pay stuff off monthly rather than in one go is very appealing.
Definitely encouraged me to buy a few bats I probably (read 'definitely') didn't need. My club has started offering staggered membership payment to account for much the same issue, being able to spread the cost is huge for some people.
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Away from bat shapes and trends.
I think a huge selling point and positive is companies that offer Klarna or similar. With costs rising as mentioned to the idea to pay stuff off monthly rather than in one go is very appealing.
Agree mate. I see a few people opting for this method which i offer on the website. Paypal to credit options too. Kit is expensive, so ot certainly helps.
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I don’t know if it costs companies to offer this service but it would certainly open doors to a lot more business in my opinion. Rob @ six sixes does it and now you’ve said so, mate.
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It does cost. You pay a percentage of the sale amount, rather than the customer. It brings in some sales you'd maybe not get though and isn't a huge amount. Same with a pos card reader tho, everything costs the business generally mate! 😆
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I don’t know if it costs companies to offer this service but it would certainly open doors to a lot more business in my opinion. Rob @ six sixes does it and now you’ve said so, mate.
It does cost more to have a payment plan option, I used to have Laybuy installed on my site which works much the same as Klarna and other providers (usually costs an extra % or 2 compared to usual fees).
Having had a very financial based background from my degree/employment, I don't necessarily agree with these products and morally it's something I've always been torn on as encouraging people to take out credit to pay for something they don't necessarily need isn't sound advice. It's proven that people generally spend more spreading it out over 3 months, which whilst commercially is probably seen as a positive for some, for me it doesn't sit right as it's then people spending more money than they actually have available - especially when it involves actually having a credit check on your file for something so menial (especially when just buying a lower grade bat for example is still more than sufficient for their needs).
I've actually removed the option from the website recently as I was only getting a very limited % of orders through Laybuy and as above it just didn't sit right with me in the current climate - there's also pretty strict guidelines around advertising these 'buy now, pay later' schemes coming into force so it could become a sticky issue legally in the months to come for anyone actively promoting them without following the guidelines (as if cricket needs anymore legal issues at the moment!! :D)
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It does cost more to have a payment plan option, I used to have Laybuy installed on my site which works much the same as Klarna and other providers (usually costs an extra % or 2 compared to usual fees).
Having had a very financial based background from my degree/employment, I don't necessarily agree with these products and morally it's something I've always been torn on as encouraging people to take out credit to pay for something they don't necessarily need isn't sound advice. It's proven that people generally spend more spreading it out over 3 months, which whilst commercially is probably seen as a positive for some, for me it doesn't sit right as it's then people spending more money than they actually have available - especially when it involves actually having a credit check on your file for something so menial (especially when just buying a lower grade bat for example is still more than sufficient for their needs).
I've actually removed the option from the website recently as I was only getting a very limited % of orders through Laybuy and as above it just didn't sit right with me in the current climate - there's also pretty strict guidelines around advertising these 'buy now, pay later' schemes coming into force so it could become a sticky issue legally in the months to come for anyone actively promoting them without following the guidelines (as if cricket needs anymore legal issues at the moment!! :D)
Understand where you're coming from here mate, but personally I feel we're not selling something which is unethical or addictive (for most anyway! 😆), so sits ok with me.
I try and set my prices to be reasonable and offer value too, so most of my sales are outright purchase. However, i also understand for some it's easier to spread that cost and as its not thousands, as in for a car etc then I'm ok with it morally. People are adults, so you have to trust they're being responsible and not over stretching themselves.
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I would say a very small minority , 1-2% of customers worry about edge size etc... Most customers will have a set price in mind of what they are looking to spend and buy accordingly.
Biggest issue is the rising costs, especially cost of entry level pads and gloves for juniors. i think most clubs will go back to kit bags .
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I would say a very small minority , 1-2% of customers worry about edge size etc... Most customers will have a set price in mind of what they are looking to spend and buy accordingly.
Biggest issue is the rising costs, especially cost of entry level pads and gloves for juniors. i think most clubs will go back to kit bags .
Maybe that 1 - 2% just come direct then mate 😆 Agree tho, the rising costs were part of my initial post. Concerning the costs rising and how often people will have to buy due to quality. Juniors especially grow quickly too, so changes to kit often. I've not even looked at junior kit now, but was going to offer it this year. Difficult now tho.
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I would say a very small minority , 1-2% of customers worry about edge size etc... Most customers will have a set price in mind of what they are looking to spend and buy accordingly.
Biggest issue is the rising costs, especially cost of entry level pads and gloves for juniors. i think most clubs will go back to kit bags .
Maybe that 1 - 2% just come direct then mate 😆 Agree tho, the rising costs were part of my initial post. Concerning the costs rising and how often people will have to buy due to quality. Juniors especially grow quickly too, so changes to kit often. I've not even looked at junior kit now, but was going to offer it this year. Difficult now tho.
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I don't post much on here but yes cost are going up as in every thing .. and all I would say big brands have to charge more few things they have huge over heads lots of wages to pay for staff and pros .. unlike me I just have me to pay so I can see why .. you pay your money take your pick
The bigger brands' prices are higher to accommodate margins for retailers (as well as their overheads you mention Dean) that will sell the vast majority of their volumes, I've had to explain this process to a few people who have approached me to stock kit on @The Cricket Boutique
Buying direct from a smaller brand will provide you with a cheaper product at prob the same grade but to get into the volumes of GN/GM/Kook etc then you need to be stocked widely and have a suitable margin for retailers to make a profit to survive too.
I actually commented on a linkedin post from SG about the fact bat design has changed now vs 15 years ago, a hard-pressed bat with 20mm edges would last years. Now bats are said to last 1000 runs which quite a few players bang in a season. This turnover of bats means more willow is needed as they dont last as long, trees only grow at a certain speed which is driving up demand and brands cant get hold of it quickly enough. This means the supply and demand model takes hold and prices increase, trees cost more, clefts cost more = bats cost more.
10 years ago I could list 10 bats on here and sell them within a day as people were obsessed with edge size over anything else. They came from a very good supplier and were well made and priced but the first PM I had was always concerning edge size. Thankfully that phase seems to have passed now and the focus has shifted to the quality of how the bats pressed as the main priority and ping videos!!!.
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Do you tend to find though bats last well past 1000 runs … majority I guess struggle to score that much in 3 seasons
How many runs do your bats last .. I would expect mine to be at least 2000 that may involve some issues with cracks refurbs ..
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That depends on the bat/batmaker, but also on how it's prepped, used etc. Lots of variables.
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Do you tend to find though bats last well past 1000 runs … majority I guess struggle to score that much in 3 seasons
How many runs do your bats last .. I would expect mine to be at least 2000 that may involve some issues with cracks refurbs ..
Why 2000?
Too many variables to say how long a bat will last, do you use it in nets? how many runs do you score in nets, how many balls are faced etc.
I've had my current match bat 4 seasons now which prob says more about my volume of runs than anything else! Lad at our club I sold a bat to didnt really knock it in and still scored 143* 2 weeks after giving it to him. He hits the ball as hard as any Pro I played against last year, after that the bat has some damage to the edge etc but he still scored 800 runs with it in the season and its still fine for next season.
I've been in the industry 18 years now (15 years today as it happens with Ayrtek) and things have changed in terms of life expectancy on products As mentioned earlier were in the throw-away era now where if your TV/Laptop/Fridge breaks you go and buy a new one rather than taking it to be repaired. There's bats at my club in the locker dating back to the 90's (GN millenniumm) that are still in one piece but pressed rock hard rather than to extract max performance I suspect.
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Do you think that's based on them performing better factually, anecdotally, them inspiring onfidence in you or as you say, more down to conditioning?
Option e) a combination of the above.
I’ve tended to try and pick up my big bats from makers or companies that I don’t believe cut (too many) corners, in the hope that they are ‘special’.
Even though we all know my money would be better spend on coaching, if we just look at runs as the only output.
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Option e) a combination of the above.
I’ve tended to try and pick up my big bats from makers or companies that I don’t believe cut (too many) corners, in the hope that they are ‘special’.
Even those we all know my money would be better spend on coaching, if we just look at runs as the only output.
😂 Think that's the case for most of us mate!
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The rise of t20 cricket (and now t10!) must surely play a role in demand for huge bats over the last 20 years. Certainly in the professional game - which is then watched by how many million viewers/buyers who want what the pros have.
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The rise of t20 cricket (and now t10!) must surely play a role in demand for huge bats over the last 20 years. Certainly in the professional game - which is then watched by how many million viewers/buyers who want what the pros have.
Without starting an age old debate again, we're assuming bigger is better?
Plus this was my original point. It's not possible to always have what the pro's have. Or at least not as often without compromising the quality and longevity of the product. The very nature of willow dictates that its impossible for all clefts to make gauge busters. Unless they're secondary/over dried, narrowed etc etc to save eventual scale weight.
The issue here is that many want light/low density willow, so premiums are charged as demand outstrips supply. However, every bat which fills the gauge is then seen as low density, whether it's narrow, dried, ultra skinny handles etc. So people are charging more for them. You've got to question if people are being fleeced, if it's sustainable and if it's actually right in lots of ways imo.
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Do you tend to find though bats last well past 1000 runs … majority I guess struggle to score that much in 3 seasons
How many runs do your bats last .. I would expect mine to be at least 2000 that may involve some issues with cracks refurbs ..
My main bat is going into its 6th season and has just over 4000 runs plus nets. Well looked after and cates for means a lot. Iv seen players launch £500+ bats across changing rooms and into kit bags just makes me cringe
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I’m not particularly into big bats
I do like a certain weight, and more often than not it suits.
I get the whole pick up thing but I don’t get on with bats generally at 2.11 which pick up 2.9
I’m not even fussy about grains , a 37mm edge and 61 circa spine grade 3 isn’t asking for much and wanting it to ping
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Just out of interest, what are the specs of the match bats used by the batmakers on here?
I’d bet that there’s not many people out there that could accurately guess the dead weight of 60 out of 100 bats.
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I'm not sure about trends, but I'm always interested in where bat shapes are going in the future. I realise that the gauge has limited what can be done to a certain extent, but I think that there are still probably a few different avenues that could be tried out. Of course, whether people would buy them is another matter! I've linked to it before I think, but in this Masters thesis there are a few different examples shown (with loads more calculated but not shown) of shapes designed by artifical intelligence:
https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0392675
Here are a few grabs of the sort of thing I mean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXpb2CJY/3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDx0Rg7Z/1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zn42Bsf1/2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Many of these shapes would take longer than usual to make by hand, but would be quick for a CNC. Most of us can probably imagine how bad some of these shapes might actually feel to use, which is where I would love a master bat maker to take some of these ideas, and make them actually good to use.
I also have other ideas for a VERY different bat, that meets all the laws, but would need a CNC guru to make it work. It would be pretty ugly to look at too, and so would need some pretty special marketing to make people want to buy it.
I don't want to dereail the thread, but one thing that I worry about is the impact of climate change. There are obviously more important things, but if we consider just the effect on cricket bat willow, in the short term I guess that all those lovely narrow grained bats will disappear, as growing seasons lengthen and the grains get wider. Will this also have an effect on density, or will it still vary tree to tree? In the longer term, will there be a change in the growing locations for the willow, and the overall sustainability of this wood?
Interesting profiles. I've owned a L&W Ultra which is similar to the profiles in many ways. I really like it.
Now I have a B3 Beluga too which I'd say is totally different concerning the amount of wood between the sweet spot and splice. I like that too.
Didn't Paul Aldred say something about profiles not being that important when it comes to performance. Where different profiles are about the pickup you want.
And the best profile I've picked up in a while was at B3 and their Players 3500 profile. I believe it's similar to the Finch but with more meat in the shoulders and toe.
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Without starting an age old debate again, we're assuming bigger is better?
Plus this was my original point. It's not possible to always have what the pro's have. Or at least not as often without compromising the quality and longevity of the product. The very nature of willow dictates that its impossible for all clefts to make gauge busters. Unless they're secondary/over dried, narrowed etc etc to save eventual scale weight.
The issue here is that many want light/low density willow, so premiums are charged as demand outstrips supply. However, every bat which fills the gauge is then seen as low density, whether it's narrow, dried, ultra skinny handles etc. So people are charging more for them. You've got to question if people are being fleeced, if it's sustainable and if it's actually right in lots of ways imo.
Judging on various brands, mostly Indian, marketing rhetoric I think its safe to assume that large swathes of the global market believe bigger is better yes.
Whether it is or not in terms of performance is one for the scientists. Its certainly of little interest to me if other factors are compromised.
I think its also safe to assume that most of this global audience has no clue about overdried willow, harrow widths etc. And much less interest in longevity than previous generations where in some cases a bat would last a decade or more.
Its certainly not sustainable but not sure what can really be done. I guess its all driven by demand of a much bigger portion of the market than CBF.
I suppose if Wrights really wanted to they could have an impact against this trend but its not really in their interests is it.
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I'm not sure about trends, but I'm always interested in where bat shapes are going in the future. I realise that the gauge has limited what can be done to a certain extent, but I think that there are still probably a few different avenues that could be tried out. Of course, whether people would buy them is another matter! I've linked to it before I think, but in this Masters thesis there are a few different examples shown (with loads more calculated but not shown) of shapes designed by artifical intelligence:
https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0392675
Here are a few grabs of the sort of thing I mean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXpb2CJY/3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDx0Rg7Z/1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zn42Bsf1/2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Many of these shapes would take longer than usual to make by hand, but would be quick for a CNC. Most of us can probably imagine how bad some of these shapes might actually feel to use, which is where I would love a master bat maker to take some of these ideas, and make them actually good to use.
I also have other ideas for a VERY different bat, that meets all the laws, but would need a CNC guru to make it work. It would be pretty ugly to look at too, and so would need some pretty special marketing to make people want to buy it.
I don't want to dereail the thread, but one thing that I worry about is the impact of climate change. There are obviously more important things, but if we consider just the effect on cricket bat willow, in the short term I guess that all those lovely narrow grained bats will disappear, as growing seasons lengthen and the grains get wider. Will this also have an effect on density, or will it still vary tree to tree? In the longer term, will there be a change in the growing locations for the willow, and the overall sustainability of this wood?
These "GA optimized" and "Hybrid optimized" shapes were made by Laver. I am not sure if they still make them.
What does "fixed support" mean in the green colored bat?
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the designs…
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Where’s it all going ? Higher prices just seen wcw released a new bat a 675 quid …
Jeez prices are insane
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Where’s it all going ? Higher prices just seen wcw released a new bat a 675 quid …
Jeez prices are insane
It's going towards: "I have to stop playing cricket because I can't afford it."
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Where’s it all going ? Higher prices just seen wcw released a new bat a 675 quid …
Jeez prices are insane
Still £75 cheaper than the other Taunton based brands top end bat!
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These "GA optimized" and "Hybrid optimized" shapes were made by Laver. I am not sure if they still make them.
What does "fixed support" mean in the green colored bat?
Laver and Wood have made a few bats (e.g. Ultra) that have some similarities with those shapes I posted, but they don't have the weird high double scoops or massive concaving. Anyone ever used one of the L&W bats with slightly out there shapes?
And 'fixed support' is just to do with their model, nothing to do with the shape. Basically where the hands go, with the pivot point in between.
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Where’s it all going ? Higher prices just seen wcw released a new bat a 675 quid …
Jeez prices are insane
I'd imagine in part to cover the huge increase in energy bills that a manufacturing business will be facing. Add in higher shopping costs, increased demand for willow and subsequent higher prices, etc and I can see why businesses are having to jack up prices.
Even more reason to shop with the guys who charge such good prices on the forum!
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Interesting , without knowing their costs hard to comment but it bats are going to standard 400 plus we’re all stuffed well most of us anyway
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I’m not particularly into big bats
I do like a certain weight, and more often than not it suits.
I get the whole pick up thing but I don’t get on with bats generally at 2.11 which pick up 2.9
I’m not even fussy about grains , a 37mm edge and 61 circa spine grade 3 isn’t asking for much and wanting it to ping
Out of interest, do you lok for those specs at 2lbs 9oz or 2lbs 11oz?
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Interesting , without knowing their costs hard to comment but it bats are going to standard 400 plus we’re all stuffed well most of us anyway
Think their Chaos you were looking at a few months ago was the same price, so no difference. Geography has something to do with it too, as Tom said it's still cheaper than another major brand in that area. If people are used to paying that and can afford it, then it's not high for that market.
Bats aren't £400 as standard tho, and neither are theirs. This is again going back to supply and demand. The premium is generally for the grainy, light bats, not the Grade 3s. If people accept thst a Grade 3 with 32mm edges, wider grains and a few blemishes is still going to be a perfectly good bat for them and their needs, then they don't have to pay that sort of money. Plenty of good value, well made bats at lower prices.
The clamour for grains, size etc is driving the pricing. If they didn't sell, they wouldn't be priced at that amount!
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Anyone ever used one of the L&W bats with slightly out there shapes?
I own a bunch of them. They feel great in hand though...extremely well balanced.
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I can appreciate the trend towards fuller profiles but can someone explain to me how a GN Scoop profile works?
To my eyes it shouldn't work as you're taking the meat away from the hitting area but it works. I borrowed one from a teammate and I was surprised how well it went.
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From what I can see, modern trends are leaning towards absolutely maximising the volume of the bat, especially in the hitting zone, and not considering the compromises you'll have to make, and what it means for the longevity of the bat, and the longevity of the performance. We've went from Traditional smaller edged and higher spined profiles to thicker edged, medium spine and concaved to smaller spine, thick edge and convex to suddenly trying to break the gauge with a convex profile with high spine, thick edge. In the end, handles, toes and shoulders are being made incredibly thin to meet these expectations. Bat costs have to go up to try cover the warranty nightmares you'll get from reducing the amount of material you have in these vulnerable areas. I love big bats as much as anyone, however have to accept that I'll have to use bats around the 2.10-2.13 mark, as I don't want to compromise on these areas of the bats. I'm guessing the pros are that bats might not be pressed like rocks to last, as that would reduce the volume you can give, and that the volume may give you confidence that you're wielding a club. Cons are, they just don't last nearly as long, cost triple the amount from 15-20 years ago for high end bats, and if you find a bat you like, well, chances are it'll break soon, so enjoy it while you can! Do they perform better than older bats do? I'm not too sure...
I think Marc at @sarg mentioned on his 10,000 Subscriber video about Pro bats/low density bats (Something along the lines of) - these are the best players in the world. The best timers of the ball, and have poured in thousands of hours to hone their technique and strength etc. Feel free to chase after these 'pro specs', but ask yourself, do you really deserve something that's cream of the crop?
Interesting , without knowing their costs hard to comment but it bats are going to standard 400 plus we’re all stuffed well most of us anyway
In terms of prices, yes, they're high for sure - if you focus on top end bats. Unfortunately, the demand for high end bats has been there for a while, and makers will have higher prices for them to try make as much money out of them as possible, but also help to make the lower end product more appealing. In the end, wood is a natural product, and you will get a higher proportion of lower grades than top grade. Just the way it works with blemishes etc.
Trying to go back to thinking like I did when I bought my first few bats. IIRC, they were...
GM Purist 303 - £80 - loved the stickers
Kookaburra Genesis Tornado - £160 - loved the stickers and pick up
Kookaburra Wild Beast - £100 - Scotland player in my year at school got one, so I thought I'd improve if I got one
Hunts County Steelback 5 star - £100
Hunts County Mettle - £80
Gray Nicolls Phoenix Pro Performance - £220 (Got in a trade)
In reality, the prices have maybe went up very little for bats like he Purist 303, as the Radon is about the same price. The bats like the Tornado would probably sell for around £320 these days. (Was the model below the Hurricane, so G2) Wild Beast would be around the £150 mark, and the Phoenix Pro Performance would sell for around the £450 mark these days. A price increase over 16 years is to be expected, afterall bats take longer to make now, cost of living has gone up, willow prices have gone up etc. (The late John Gasson mentioned making up near enough 100 bats in a day back when shapes were simpler)
Things that actually influenced by purchase weren't so much the shape, but more the price, if anyone in my cricket club used them successfully, and stickers. I went with what my friends told me was good, and what I saw on TV. I remember being told by my mates who I played street cricket with that Kookaburra bats were the best and lightest - AFTER I had bought the GM Purist. And remember our now 1st team captain plundering runs in u15s using a Hunts County, and then going for that.
This was all a time before Social Media, and just about at the dawn of internet purchasing etc. Problem is, with Social Media, batmakers are always going to try showcase their best bats. They're always going to promote big looking bats they've made, from perhaps special pieces of willow. Retailers are going to show off bats that fill the bat gauge and are under 2lb 10oz. Potential customers are going to see that, and think that it's the best bat for them to get. So what do batmakers/brands do? They have to compete with each other to try provide what people deem is a superior product.
Batmakers are always going to be fighting an uphill battle to try educate their customers.
- It doesn't guarantee a sale - time is money. The more time they spend answering questions etc, less time making bats. And with social media being what it is, it's incredibly easy to not realise you're sending tonnes of messages and disrupting their workflow.
- It takes quite a lot of energy at times, as many potential customers will test your patience.
- Try convincing someone they're wrong to think that a 40mm edge will help them score more runs, or that a gauge busting 50mm splice and 35mm toe in at 2.10 aren't really possible.
I'd say the gauge has helped provide somewhat of a standard that bats should be made to - unfortunately, I'd say it's had an adverse effect on expectations - in that the gauge is seen as a target rather than an absolute limit. Pre-gauge, you had people scoring runs for fun using a Salix Pod, Newbery Thruxton, B52 Bombers, M&H Solutions etc etc. Some of these are still floating around and scoring hundreds, if not thousands. Were they huge bats or did they break the gauge? (Maybe width wise they did) No, especially compared to the lumps we get today. Thing is, bats we get today probably wouldn't last for anywhere near as long as them modern classics due to compromises having to be made to suit market perception rather than what the batmaker's experience tells them makes a solid bat.