Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Companies => Custom companies => B3 Cricket => Topic started by: Sloggerz on April 02, 2023, 01:08:28 PM
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Had a look at the website this morning. £330 for grade 3. Would you buy a b3 bat again? Who is the best value for money bat maker in the UK?
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Thought this may get brought up here, Willow prices are on the increase as demand outstrips supply. JS Wrights are obv the industry leader in terms of supply and B3 are their biggest UK customer as the vast majority goes over to India due to the sheer vol. of bats they make.
It's a tough one regarding value for money from those doing it full-time as a brand for a living. B3 has 6 members of staff on the payroll and a factory to fund from sales of the kit as a result so their revenue has to be driven from bat sales as their primary product.
I think you'll see a number of brands prices going up next week once the new financial year begins...a great time to grab that last min bargain from somewhere!
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Have to say, it's put me off another B3 other than maybe secondhand. Can get something custom made by so many other brands for so much less.
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Value for money surely lies in the smaller brands two of which, Red Ink and Oxfordshire cricket bats will make a bat as if not better crafted than any of B3,GN,GM etc.
Apart from purely a recognised name I cannot see any value myself in buying from the main established brands any longer.
In my opinion anyway
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GM Signatures are the best value bat in the U.K. market surely?
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Just need @Chad and @petehosk to do a little bat sale and the demand and supply curve will return to normal.
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Had a look at the website this morning. £330 for grade 3. Would you buy a b3 bat again? Who is the best value for money bat maker in the UK?
:o That's shocking! No way will I be buying another B3 bat if that's the price for a grade 3. Really don't know how they can justify that!
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I have had a number of very good bats from B3 in the past but their current pricing is outrageous. Added to that, of all the brands they have used, they are the one I feel are most guilty of 'up-grading' bats to a higher grades than other companies would sell a bat at.
It seems a very different business now to the one first set up. Not a company that I would buy from again
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I don’t have nothing positive to add but 330 for a bottom of the pile Grade 3 wow.
If they gave you a bundle for that then fair enough
People wonder why people go after gray imports.
Guess a 100 pound butterfly offer doesn’t exist anymore!!!
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The thing is as Tom said, is that the bigger brands have bigger overheads and more kit to enable them to make more bats. You can't really compare them to boutique brands making from home. I appreciate you can get a quality bat from many smaller makers, but if the bigger brands didn't exist there wouldn't be enough bats to go around as there wouldn't be enough made.
In terms of price increases, it's been covered many times and it's a complex issue. The demand for big bats at lightweight being an issue. The way the game is being played now another and the sheer amount of people playing the game, plus the fact that people just don't care for their bats as much, means demand is greater than ever I reckon.
All that said, 330 for a G3 isn't cheap but is the way it's going. But funnily enough, if this drives people to buy cheap imports, it could only add to the issue of willow supply and demand 😆 It's such a complex issue, it could be discussed for days
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It’s unfair just to use B3 as all the major brands are hiking bat prices, I actually have a B3 bat currently I bought cheap off season on EBay with a damaged toe.
Just out of interest I put the weight grade model and knocking in,scuff sheet on their website just now and it came out at 430.
That’s for a 2 stripe grade 2 I believe, short handle.
If willow prices are partly due to the sheer number of people playing the game this must be outside the UK.
Participation in amateur cricket has been on a significant decline for the last 10 to 15 years.
This thread offers a possible reason for this, or a factor in those figures.
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430!!!!!!
I’ve no idea of the volumes they sell, but surely there can’t be many weekend warriors willing to pay that?
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Think after their warehouse fire in 2016 I got a Custom Series on here for £150 or so. Also got it speedily replaced without issue after a pretty nasty crack. Think I got a pretty good deal at the time, and small things like customer service are also massive; to have David on email to go through a consultation also very, very handy...
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It’s unfair just to use B3 as all the major brands are hiking bat prices, I actually have a B3 bat currently I bought cheap off season on EBay with a damaged toe.
Just out of interest I put the weight grade model and knocking in,scuff sheet on their website just now and it came out at 430.
That’s for a 2 stripe grade 2 I believe, short handle.
If willow prices are partly due to the sheer number of people playing the game this must be outside the UK.
Participation in amateur cricket has been on a significant decline for the last 10 to 15 years.
This thread offers a possible reason for this, or a factor in those figures.
I would say participation is on the increase, especially in the Bristol leagues. Our junior sections are thriving since the introduction of all stars, ladies cricket is on the up, and some clubs like tomteks can bang out 8 adults teams on a saturday !!
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I would say participation is on the increase, especially in the Bristol leagues. Our junior sections are thriving since the introduction of all stars, ladies cricket is on the up, and some clubs like tomteks can bang out 8 adults teams on a saturday !!
Since Covid lockdowns i think there has been a significant increase
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Worldwide you'd surely think in the numbers would be higher? I could could be wrong. But there's probably more junior cricket, female cricket and pretty much everyone I know in men's cricket has their own bat, if not multiple bats. Growing up I remember my dad's team had a kitbag which half the team used, as probably only half the side had their own bat. But I grew up in the 80's in Yorkshire, so we ate coal and drank puddle water (and that was if you were well off! 😆)
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£330 should be the price for a grade 1 bat. Cant justify paying that much for low grade willow.
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£330 should be the price for a grade 1 bat. Cant justify paying that much for low grade willow.
Who are selling grade 1 for £330?
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Red ink sells G1 for £355.
Not sure about oxfordshire cricket bats as the website does not mention prices.
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Who are selling grade 1 for £330?
Not many companies nowadays that’s for sure, rumours are even the Indian brand bats are going to be rising by 30-40%.
Your comparing 2 bat-makers who are very good in their own rights but A) work from their home workshops and B) Don’t do it as a full time job so their price models can be different to those brands that rely on the margins to pay their overheads/staff/business rates with.
Add on the fact that the vast majority of brands will be VAT Reg too so have to pay the VAT man 20% of profits too!
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Does make the case for a nice butterfly even more compelling, especially if you can find one with a nice grain structure.
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Does make the case for a nice butterfly even more compelling, especially if you can find one with a nice grain structure.
Agree on that
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Not many companies nowadays that’s for sure, rumours are even the Indian brand bats are going to be rising by 30-40%.
Your comparing 2 bat-makers who are very good in their own rights but A) work from their home workshops and B) Don’t do it as a full time job so their price models can be different to those brands that rely on the margins to pay their overheads/staff/business rates with.
Add on the fact that the vast majority of brands will be VAT Reg too so have to pay the VAT man 20% of profits too!
Well said.
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Red ink sells G1 for £355.
Not sure about oxfordshire cricket bats as the website does not mention prices.
A few others not far off and with decent write ups also 👀
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Not many companies nowadays that’s for sure, rumours are even the Indian brand bats are going to be rising by 30-40%.
Your comparing 2 bat-makers who are very good in their own rights but A) work from their home workshops and B) Don’t do it as a full time job so their price models can be different to those brands that rely on the margins to pay their overheads/staff/business rates with.
Add on the fact that the vast majority of brands will be VAT Reg too so have to pay the VAT man 20% of profits too!
Exactly. There's definitely more to it than how it appears on face value. Being in business these days isn't cheap!
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Not many companies nowadays that’s for sure, rumours are even the Indian brand bats are going to be rising by 30-40%.
Your comparing 2 bat-makers who are very good in their own rights but A) work from their home workshops and B) Don’t do it as a full time job so their price models can be different to those brands that rely on the margins to pay their overheads/staff/business rates with.
Add on the fact that the vast majority of brands will be VAT Reg too so have to pay the VAT man 20% of profits too!
Yet who else charges the prices have they gone down the Millichamp route!!!! Many brands of the size size and larger don’t charge no where near as much. I wish them well but wouldn’t touch a grade 3 for 320Good luck to them just seen some cheaper grade 1 stock there selling off though at decent prices…
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The G2 Keeley’s I have/had in stock were an RRP of £400+ which I had on offer to match theirs st £372 and £399.
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A few others not far off and with decent write ups also 👀
Been thinking all night and haven’t added to the list, anyone in particular you had in mind?
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Not hard to find a G1 in the region of 350 rrp, even from the big brands. 320 for a G3 is nuts. Find it hard to believe B3 will be selling all that many bats at those prices! Maybe locally they have a better rep but been a long time since I've seen one down here either.
Anecdotally, it does seem as if the Millichamp model of getting very nice (or perceived to be) top end stock and then pushing the prices sky high for it has definitely worked. Days gone by it'd be a notable occasion if an oppo player turned up with something expensive or unusual - even used to be a CBF opposition batwatch thread. These days there's someone with a £400+ bat pretty much every week.
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Not many companies nowadays that’s for sure, rumours are even the Indian brand bats are going to be rising by 30-40%.
Your comparing 2 bat-makers who are very good in their own rights but A) work from their home workshops and B) Don’t do it as a full time job so their price models can be different to those brands that rely on the margins to pay their overheads/staff/business rates with.
Add on the fact that the vast majority of brands will be VAT Reg too so have to pay the VAT man 20% of profits too!
I don't hide the fact all the Neon bats are imported, but what Tom is saying it right - I've had a ~25% increase across all grades in the past year. I've been able to soak up the majority of the increase just through the volume of sales I'm doing now, but it's inevitable that prices are going to keep increasing. At the end of the day inflation has been sat at 10% for a while now, that affects everything so cricket is just as vulnerable to price increases (whether we like it or not!!).
And yes, comparing brands that are VAT registered vs non-VAT registered is impossible. Every bat I sell, even after reclaiming every penny of VAT I can, still sees probably ~10% of the sale price go to the tax man.
Side note, I'd be intrigued to know what people expect to pay for the following grades nowadays?
- G1+
- G1
- G2
- G3
- G4
Answers below (don't bite my head off about G1+ please :D)
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Been thinking all night and haven’t added to the list, anyone in particular you had in mind?
Nope, nobody in particular 😆 But for a custom bat, handmade in the UK with a quality handle, balance, performance and lovely stickers. I'd expect to pay....
G1+ £449.99
G1 £349.99
G2 £279.99
G3 £219.99
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I don't hide the fact all the Neon bats are imported, but what Tom is saying it right - I've had a ~25% increase across all grades in the past year. I've been able to soak up the majority of the increase just through the volume of sales I'm doing now, but it's inevitable that prices are going to keep increasing. At the end of the day inflation has been sat at 10% for a while now, that affects everything so cricket is just as vulnerable to price increases (whether we like it or not!!).
And yes, comparing brands that are VAT registered vs non-VAT registered is impossible. Every bat I sell, even after reclaiming every penny of VAT I can, still sees probably ~10% of the sale price go to the tax man.
Side note, I'd be intrigued to know what people expect to pay for the following grades nowadays?
- G1+
- G1
- G2
- G3
- G4
Answers below (don't bite my head off about G1+ please :D)
Without meaning to be argumentative but what is G1+. Willow is graded on appearance at its initial stage and in grades 1 through to 4 in the main with some using really low velum grade as G5 or even G6 but G1+ is just a way to charge more for the pretty looking willow isn’t it if we are honest.
I charge £309 for a Grade 1, £259 for G2 and £199 for G3 but as iv said and others have eluded to my business isn’t my main source of income and if it was those prices are not sustainable if I ever went towards selling via retailers as the mark up for the retailer isn’t there but that’s a great way to support volume of sales. If you look at it B3 charging £320 for a G3 given the volume of overheads they have in comparison to for example myself with a workshop at home isn’t a comparable when they also have staff that rely on them for there income. On the flip side there are companies that doesn’t make there bats that have G1 prices at the £450-£500 mark and these have some or no real business overheads. The fact is every company is in it to make money but the choice sits with the consumer if you think it’s a fair price or not. The fact is stickers and marketing BS sell well outside the forum as this is a very unique element of the market but an incredibly small almost non existent element compared to the overall market.
In summary yea £320 is a lot for a G3 in comparison to GN signature for example but what’s the sales volume of GM vs B3?? £320 is a lot vs £199 for mine but what’s the cost per bat for B3 vs cost per bat for myself?? There are too many variables to make a firm argument either way. What I do know and strongly believe is there is no G1+ grade and charging an extra £100 because that G1 cleft is pretty is no different to the argument of G3 at £320 being overpriced or wrong.
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Total sidetrack, but why is it grade 1+, sure 1 plus makes it nearer to 2. I'm going to start a campaign for G1-, maybe even Grade 0!
Re pricing:
Top of the range/G1+/Pro grade/player edition etc - here i think brands are pretty much free to charge whatever the market will tolerate, you're most likely selling the vert best you have to those with the cash to pay for it-
G1 - 350-450
G2 - 250-350
G3 - 200-250
That would be sort of what I'd expect to see or think was acceptable. How manageable that is with costs I have no idea.
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I get what you're saying @SOULMAN1012, but the demand/supply drives this. If you don't get willow you can sell as G1+ then you'll never sell it, but those odd few clefts you do get are now fetching that premium and the market will pay it. It's not about about cashing in, it's what the market dictates
As a small brand to get those clefts I found I had to invest in more willow (and equipment to process that willow), which is investment and risk. Unless you find a batmaker who can supply 5 part mades at a time and is happy to give up his very best willow that is. I didn't. So that investment is factored into your pricing on those clefts. it has to be.
For me, those G1+ clefts have to be as near as perfect though and I try to be generous/fair with my grading, so feel I offer good value. I actually advise people to buy on budget, rather than get drawn into the grains/looks. There are still more budget friendly options. Also, I've seen many G1s which I'd class as G2's and G1+ or 'Pro' willow which I'd class as G1, or in some cases even G2. It's all relative.
I think we've all put our prices up, as raw materials and other costs have gone up. It's unfortunately inevitable in the current climate. Mine have risen 10% this year, they were pretty stable before that for a while.
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The question I wonder about is, once inflation // other costs go down (and it should) will prices go down to reflect this....?
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The question I wonder about is, once inflation // other costs go down (and it should) will prices go down to reflect this....?
Inflation might go down, but that won't mean makers costs drop, just rise less slowly.
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Inflation might go down, but that won't mean makers costs drop, just rise less slowly.
Just about to say the same, I wouldn't expect prices to drop off.
FWIW, I think I'd be happy paying very different prices for a fully bespoke bat, semi bespoke (can choose weight, from a range of profiles, handle shape, etc) and totally off the shelf.
As I buy largely bespoke/semi-bespoke:
Circa £150 for G4/ugly butterfly
Circa £200 for a clean butterfly/G3
Circa £250 for G2
Circa £340 for G1
If the batmaker is providing toe guard, scuff, edge tape as standard then I'd put another £15/£20 on top as that's about what it'll cost me to do that myself.
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It will be interesting to see with the spiraling cost of willow and the market in an effective monopoly controlled by a single company how long it is before the big Indian manufacturers experiment with growing in a controlled environment
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The question I wonder about is, once inflation // other costs go down (and it should) will prices go down to reflect this....?
Inflation dropping doesn't mean the raw materials get any cheaper, it just means they won't rise as quickly in price. I'd love to say willow prices will drop but we all know that won't be the case sadly.
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It will be interesting to see with the spiraling cost of willow and the market in an effective monopoly controlled by a single company how long it is before the big Indian manufacturers experiment with growing in a controlled environment
India doesn’t need to worry about willow they have enough hence the shortage here there buying power is higher.
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One thing b3 can give you though which i guess is prevalent is they can give you a big 2’8 bat they do offer something most bespoke small boutique can’t and like the like can’t due to their supply of willow.
You don’t see too many big bats full from smaller makers because they simply don’t get good enough wood. Johnny makes a very valued point higher up and in truth he sold me a grade 1 plus at G1 price.
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India doesn’t need to worry about willow they have enough hence the shortage here there buying power is higher.
They currently have supply but they lack control over the price of that supply and any business that is critically reliant on one supplier is carrying a huge risk factor.
The alternative would be to buy out Wright's which would be even worse news for those parts of the UK bat making industry that don't have their own willow supply
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One thing b3 can give you though which i guess is prevalent is they can give you a big 2’8 bat they do offer something most bespoke small boutique can’t and like the like can’t due to their supply of willow.
You don’t see too many big bats full from smaller makers because they simply don’t get good enough wood. Johnny makes a very valued point higher up and in truth he sold me a grade 1 plus at G1 price.
But again what is a G1++
The talk is supply and demand creates this. Well this has been created by companies, advertising a grade that in reality doesn’t exist. This is a by product of pushing the price up on something because it looks better, there is no way that anyone can say that they play better etc either. Now if it’s due to being less available and by that being rare to get that class of willow I can see why but doesn’t mean it’s right to me. No different to LE models. Limited to what exactly??
Now the point about smaller makers and companies willow supply is valid and it takes a while to build relationships etc but again from where my willow comes from i but it in Grades 1, 2 and 3 not G1+, 1,2,3 and now that my relationship is established I get some very nice willow and some nice willow but I personally don’t see why I should charge more for the ones with nicer grains is I guess all I’m saying.
What I do know is that the marketing BS has worked over the years as to often people come to me and say I need top grade as I want top performance. What a load of BS but from a marketing and business point I guess it’s worked.
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I'm not sure anyone is saying it performs better. Some people demand multi grained, lightweight stunners. Due to the nature of how willow is grown and processed now, we're told these are rarer to come by. So, this creates that new grade really. It's a bit of both, customer driven and then brand/supply driven to meet demand. If people didn't want them, or demand them, it wouldn't exist and those people will generally be happy to pay more to get what they want. Fair play to you mate if you don't follow that model, but there's more to it imo than your making out here from a business perspective.
On the flip side. Do batmakers get to claim back for storm damaged clefts, clefts where bark excursion, big knots aren't apparent? No, they take the hit. In the grand scheme of things I've seen happen in the industry, creating a top tier of willow for potentially the 1 to 2% of willow you get isn't a crime imo.
Things change. If and when things become harder to get a hold of, then they become more exclusive and they're expensive. If you sold a 20 grain perfect looking cleft as a G1, how would the next customer react when you sold them a 7 Grainger with a bit of spec as a G1 and charged the same? It's probably why GM have about 14 grades essentially, as 3 or 4 probably don't really cover it anymore.
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I'm not sure anyone is saying it performs better. Some people demand multi grained, lightweight stunners. Due to the nature of how willow is grown and processed now, we're told these are rarer to come by. So, this creates that new grade really. It's a bit of both, customer driven and then brand/supply driven to meet demand. If people didn't want them, or demand them, it wouldn't exist and those people will generally be happy to pay more to get what they want. Fair play to you mate if you don't follow that model, but there's more to it imo than your making out here from a business perspective.
On the flip side. Do batmakers get to claim back for storm damaged clefts, clefts where bark excursion, big knots aren't apparent? No, they take the hit. In the grand scheme of things I've seen happen in the industry, creating a top tier of willow for potentially the 1 to 2% of willow you get isn't a crime imo.
Things change. If and when things become harder to get a hold of, then they become more exclusive and they're expensive. If you sold a 20 grain perfect looking cleft as a G1, how would the next customer react when you sold them a 7 Grainger with a bit of spec as a G1 and charged the same? It's probably why GM have about 14 grades essentially, as 3 or 4 probably don't really cover it anymore.
I do get what you’re saying @jonny77 and respect each point made. However all I’m saying is because you get a 13 dead straight G1 and next to it a more available 7-8 grain clean piece of willow both are G1 it’s no different to a G2 or G3 in that regard you get some nicer than others.
Your point about storm damaged etc is a very valid point but again you can factor that into generic pricing for losses etc.
Look it’s all subjective and my point and views are possible different to many due to as iv said this isn’t my main income and iv never set out to make it so. Iv also nit gone down a route that has meant that iv had to outlay as much cost as yourself for example. I have more understanding for those that have these costs than companies that have no costs really but use the marketing BS to inflate prices.
Finally your point earlier about what’s sold as “Pro” G1+ etc is just rubbish in most cases
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In some cases it is mate I agree. As I said, generally for me it has to be pretty perfect for me to sell it as a G1+, but I see some which aren't great at all. So maybe the point isn't should G1+ exist, but what is acceptable as G1+. As with anything, some will be fair and others not so much.
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But again what is a G1++
The talk is supply and demand creates this. Well this has been created by companies, advertising a grade that in reality doesn’t exist.
None of the grades really exist if that’s the logic tbh.
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In some cases it is mate I agree. As I said, generally for me it has to be pretty perfect for me to sell it as a G1+, but I see some which aren't great at all. So maybe the point isn't should G1+ exist, but what is acceptable as G1+. As with anything, some will be fair and others not so much.
Well said mate a great counter argument and valid point
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None of the grades really exist if that’s the logic tbh.
Sorry! Willow is sold in grades 1,2,3, and 4 so what logic are you questioning??
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Sorry! Willow is sold in grades 1,2,3, and 4 so what logic are you questioning??
But those are just created by a different companies sales dept. And can be argued against with the exact same reasoning.
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Sorry! Willow is sold in grades 1,2,3, and 4 so what logic are you questioning??
Not entirely true mate Ruggles does extra specials too I once took delivery of a box of them. They may or may not be open to most people but that was 5/6 years ago.
Better customer you are the more chance you have of getting them
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But those are just created by a different companies sales dept. And can be argued against with the exact same reasoning.
No they are not. If you go to JS wrights and are able to get a willow merchant account you will buy your clefts in Grades 1,2,3 and 4 and those only in the main. You will then need to order X amount of one grade to get Y amount of higher grades.
Companies sales department can call them what ever but the main point I’m making is willow is only really bought in 4 grades and so should he sold in those same grades. That’s my opinion anyway
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Not entirely true mate Ruggles does extra specials too I once took delivery of a box of them. They may or may not be open to most people but that was 5/6 years ago.
Better customer you are the more chance you have of getting them
By and large it’s true. Yes established or top clients may get some top end or special in some way deal. That’s just business and happens in my 9-5 world on a family basis to our top clients but as a general rule it’s the case
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No they are not. If you go to JS wrights and are able to get a willow merchant account you will buy your clefts in Grades 1,2,3 and 4 and those only in the main. You will then need to order X amount of one grade to get Y amount of higher grades.
Companies sales department can call them what ever but the main point I’m making is willow is only really bought in 4 grades and so should he sold in those same grades. That’s my opinion anyway
What about the JS Wright sales department?
I don't like G1+ as I think it's a bit dishonest in origin, but having a top selection is in itself perfectly reasonable.
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No they are not. If you go to JS wrights and are able to get a willow merchant account you will buy your clefts in Grades 1,2,3 and 4 and those only in the main. You will then need to order X amount of one grade to get Y amount of higher grades.
Companies sales department can call them what ever but the main point I’m making is willow is only really bought in 4 grades and so should he sold in those same grades. That’s my opinion anyway
But why should Wrights decide that? They’re not a bat maker. They even state themselves:
It is up to the individual bat maker what grade of bat the blades that leave our factory make, some even take into account the way the bat bounces off the finished bat to decide what grade of bat they will sell it as.
And:
We have many other Grades which have been developed over the years to satisfy the different demands from all the different markets across the world.
But even so, I fail to see why how a seller of clefts should define what grades the final bats should be sold under. wrights done even see the planes faces when the grade, and given the number of clefts they grade I can’t imagine a huge deal of time goes into assessing each one.
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What about the JS Wright sales department?
I don't like G1+ as I think it's a bit dishonest in origin, but having a top selection is in itself perfectly reasonable.
Think just forum cynical thinking lol. From my understanding 10% of all willow clefts sold are G1 so that’s the top selection for me
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By and large it’s true. Yes established or top clients may get some top end or special in some way deal. That’s just business and happens in my 9-5 world on a family basis to our top clients but as a general rule it’s the case
So g1 plus does exists then lighter and better looking also a Pakistan legend and his agent rocked up with 6 of them they got direct.
I guarantee if you had access to this quality you would want a premium for it or keep it for your own.
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But why should Wrights decide that? They’re not a bat maker. They even state themselves:
And:
But even so, I fail to see why how a seller of clefts should define what grades the final bats should be sold under. wrights done even see the planes faces when the grade, and given the number of clefts they grade I can’t imagine a huge deal of time goes into assessing each one.
Look it’s just my view. Ok so if it’s not the supplier of 75% of the worlds willow that set the guideline then who shall we ask, maybe the tree!! Flippant comment but you have to start somewhere.
Look if you like and support a G1+ grade and you’re happy to pay £100-£200 more for that than good on you mate your money just for me doesn’t sit well.
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I have no issue with getting light and best looking and paying big for them they are rare but I’m they don’t always make the best bats
This is my final post on the topic my theory is B3 can supply you with extra special you will get what a pro gets and often better you get the best ruggles has at the top end and pay top end money they are almost unique in this
I don’t agree on the price of g3 but that’s my option they can and do offer a pro bat and as I said the best wood at a price
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So g1 plus does exists then lighter and better looking also a Pakistan legend and his agent rocked up with 6 of them they got direct.
We could go all day. If in your mind G1+ is acceptable and you’re happy to pay the premium for it than fine but in my mind no the grade doesn’t exist. The international legend that rocked up with 6 very nice G1 clefts I would expect as he is at the top of his game and may demand the top of willow in terms of grains or appearance if that’s what he requires in his bats
But by the same logic you can’t knock B3 for charging what they choose to charge for a G3 surely??
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Top top wood should attract top price lower shouldn’t simple.
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Top top wood should attract top price lower shouldn’t simple.
So a G1 cleft that cost Circa £100 can be sold for £500-£600 with say for arguments sake £100
Worth of labour and material costs
But a G3 that Circa cost of £55 with same labour/material costs can’t be sold for £320 given these make up roughly 40/50% off an order book
Sorry I just disagree with you on that point but I guess that’s what the forum is about, good respectful conversations and different views and thoughts
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Think just forum cynical thinking lol. From my understanding 10% of all willow clefts sold are G1 so that’s the top selection for me
What if there’s a bad year for willow, is something that wasn’t too 10% last year then g1 this year?
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Garrard are knocking out good looking bats from £100 to £200. If they can do it, I don't get how B3 can ask £330 for a grade 3. They will lose a number of customers asa result.
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Garrard are knocking out good looking bats from £100 to £200. If they can do it, I don't get how B3 can ask £330 for a grade 3. They will lose a number of customers asa result.
Aren't their bats in this price range sub Grade? Can't see how it would be sustainable on normal clefts
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Garrard are knocking out good looking bats from £100 to £200. If they can do it, I don't get how B3 can ask £330 for a grade 3. They will lose a number of customers asa result.
He just has himself and a home workshop, B3 have a premises, sponsored players and multiple staff on the payroll to consider is the reason I would suggest
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They're sub bats. Clearly states in the description....
https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r (https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r)
Funnily enough, this seems to be the same bat listed on eBay for £175 with no mention of any defects, which seemingly sold on Garrards site for £100 🤔 I could be wrong, but seems the same one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
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Even the non-sub grades are pretty reasonably priced up to G2. But as pointed out, Ed doesn't sponsor big names, doesn't have a factory and doesn't rely on batmaking for his sole income.
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Even the non-sub grades are pretty reasonably priced up to G2. But as pointed out, Ed doesn't sponsor big names, doesn't have a factory and doesn't rely on batmaking for his sole income.
Yes, not all bats sold direct by Garrard are sub-grades and the prices vary accordingly but still nevertheless good value.
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If willow (wood) is so expensive, then why use it ?
At the lower levels, also at the non-pro club levels, it should be perfectly legal to use bats made from synthetic/non-wood materials. Most players will not play at the pro/international level. Why let cost-prohibitive equipment restrict fans from enjoying a good weekend game when all these weekend warriors want is some cricketing fun. Non-wood/synthetic bats would be cheaper, durable, and require no maintenance like oiling/sanding etc.
I just don't see how grass roots level cricket survives if prices keep rising. Granted inflation is rampant and pretty much everywhere, people/kids will switch to more cost-effective means of sporting activities or at least those with more fun/entertainment for their money. Let's face it, not everyone has a good cricket day in the field every weekend.
Also, this nonsense with "English" willow being better than any other willow serves only one company. We all know who they are and how they monopolize the cricket bat market. Either get more willow suppliers (bring costs down) or look for alternative materials.
I haven't bought bats in a few years but I am glad I stocked up when I did. :D
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Garrard are knocking out good looking bats from £100 to £200. If they can do it, I don't get how B3 can ask £330 for a grade 3. They will lose a number of customers asa result.
I have switched from using B3 to Garrard for this reason. Both make excellent bays but one charges considerably more for a product of no better quality
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B3 does seem to be a bit of a w***** magnet.
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Overheads and other running costs sound like a problem for the businesses to solve rather than for the consumer to deal with.
I dont care if my bat is made in a million pound factory or a spare boxroom - it is judged on the factors below.
- prices
- quality of product
- customer service
Ive been using smaller companies for quite some time now and actually find not only the price cheaper for equivalent product but product quality better. Customer service seems to vary but certainly more likely to get any sort of personal service from a smaller maker aswell. These are the only 3 factors I consider when bat shopping
Really for anyone in the know its a no brainer to use a smaller company/maker.
The above doesn't necessarily apply to collectors more to users of bats
My recent post with 2 buys from smaller brands (assuming h4l are still small?) for under the price of a G3 from B3 shows that there is plenty of value to be had
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The original poster asked for the best value for money.
It may be that the traditional large brand with the non pro game gap becomes larger
In effect you have a dual market expanding. I suspect myself this gap will only get wider
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The original poster asked for the best value for money.
It may be that the traditional large brand with the non pro game gap becomes larger
In effect you have a dual market expanding. I suspect myself this gap will only get wider
That's good, isn't it? This board was set up to support independent batmakers.
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That's good, isn't it? This board was set up to support independent batmakers.
Yes….in my opinion. For the sake of balance the more traditional brands and business models offer something different so they won’t clash in my view.
But if the gap for the small batmakers and non batmaking retailers increases great.
If it works out like that of course
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Overheads and other running costs sound like a problem for the businesses to solve rather than for the consumer to deal with.
I dont care if my bat is made in a million pound factory or a spare boxroom - it is judged on the factors below.
- prices
- quality of product
- customer service
Ive been using smaller companies for quite some time now and actually find not only the price cheaper for equivalent product but product quality better. Customer service seems to vary but certainly more likely to get any sort of personal service from a smaller maker aswell. These are the only 3 factors I consider when bat shopping
Really for anyone in the know its a no brainer to use a smaller company/maker.
The above doesn't necessarily apply to collectors more to users of bats
My recent post with 2 buys from smaller brands (assuming h4l are still small?) for under the price of a G3 from B3 shows that there is plenty of value to be had
VAT is obviously relevant but all things considered, the economies of scale from running a bigger operation should outwigh increased overheads. My assumption would be that GM have the highest running costs of any UK operation but also offer some of the best value
To be out pricing the market by such a degree would either indicate a poorly run business or a bigger profit margin than the competition
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If willow (wood) is so expensive, then why use it ?
At the lower levels, also at the non-pro club levels, it should be perfectly legal to use bats made from synthetic/non-wood materials. Most players will not play at the pro/international level. Why let cost-prohibitive equipment restrict fans from enjoying a good weekend game when all these weekend warriors want is some cricketing fun. Non-wood/synthetic bats would be cheaper, durable, and require no maintenance like oiling/sanding etc.
I just don't see how grass roots level cricket survives if prices keep rising. Granted inflation is rampant and pretty much everywhere, people/kids will switch to more cost-effective means of sporting activities or at least those with more fun/entertainment for their money. Let's face it, not everyone has a good cricket day in the field every weekend.
Also, this nonsense with "English" willow being better than any other willow serves only one company. We all know who they are and how they monopolize the cricket bat market. Either get more willow suppliers (bring costs down) or look for alternative materials.
I haven't bought bats in a few years but I am glad I stocked up when I did. :D
A problem with synthetic bats would probably be how they affect the ball, and also sustainability. There have been attempts to use materials other than wood, and was outright banned due to the effect it had on the ball. (Lillee's infamous aluminium bat)
There are alternative woods which do make a product, albeit normally with a tradeoff in a certain property. (Serbian can be too brittle, Kashmir/Aussie can be too dense - funnily enough all of which are of the same genus of tree) With the number of people playing, the kinds of weights people are using and shapes that are demanded, it needs to be a softwood that reaches maturity in a relatively short timeframe (Can be grown, cut and dried in a sensible timeframe and can be manipulated easily) that is low density (So it's light enough to use) but strong (Can withstand impact). I really don't like it that one company has this much influence over the cost of cricket bats, but I also wouldn't call it nonsense without some hard facts/examples of better alternatives.
I'm not a fan of the bat prices hiking up this much, £330 is a lot for an entry offering. I understand that cost of living has gone up significantly, alongside the cost of willow, and if B3 feel as a business that these are the prices that they need to sell bats at to pay their employees, cover their costs and to grow their business, then that's up to the consumer to decide whether or not to support. The consumer doesn't have to buy from them. I have visited, and know for a fact that their process is excellent, and the product is of a very high quality. A problem this does present however is potentially more demand for cheaper bats, or at least G1 bats at a lower price than these reputable manufacturers can provide at, and thus potentially more low quality imported bats and sticker brands.
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B3 started out saying all grades of willow performed the same.
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I think that still remains the case, the fact is the lower grades of willow may be heavier so will make a smaller bat in terms of edge size for the required weight or a heavy bat in terms of average edge/spine height.
Any decent batmaker will still ensure even the lower grade clefts are pressed to optimal performance levels. Having take the opportunity to make the 7 hours round trip to B3 to check out their set-up prior to stocking them im confident that they have a set-up thats probably only second the GM in terms of the equipment, size and processes they run. The B3 bats I have in stock are very well made and feel very solid in terms of the product itself with chunky shoulders, toe and middles and a very thick handle, they are aiming at the higher end of the market but no different to the M&H, WCW or even some Indian brands now that are looking at £300 for a G3, £400-£450 for a G2 and £600-700 for a G1.
As previously mentioned B3 get their willow from JS Wrights so will have to factor in the prices of clefts, handles, stickers, etc before they get don to the nitty gritty of what it costs them to actually make it into a bat, have staff present to deal with customers and process orders.
The vast majority of bat makers are one man bands so don't have people on the payroll that add to costs each month, they can therefore lower their costs on the products due to this.
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I think that still remains the case, the fact is the lower grades of willow may be heavier so will make a smaller bat in terms of edge size for the required weight or a heavy bat in terms of average edge/spine height.
Any decent batmaker will still ensure even the lower grade clefts are pressed to optimal performance levels. Having take the opportunity to make the 7 hours round trip to B3 to check out their set-up prior to stocking them im confident that they have a set-up thats probably only second the GM in terms of the equipment, size and processes they run. The B3 bats I have in stock are very well made and feel very solid in terms of the product itself with chunky shoulders, toe and middles and a very thick handle, they are aiming at the higher end of the market but no different to the M&H, WCW or even some Indian brands now that are looking at £300 for a G3, £400-£450 for a G2 and £600-700 for a G1.
As previously mentioned B3 get their willow from JS Wrights so will have to factor in the prices of clefts, handles, stickers, etc before they get don to the nitty gritty of what it costs them to actually make it into a bat, have staff present to deal with customers and process orders.
The vast majority of bat makers are one man bands so don't have people on the payroll that add to costs each month, they can therefore lower their costs on the products due to this.
Once again, well said and I agree with you.
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I think that still remains the case, the fact is the lower grades of willow may be heavier so will make a smaller bat in terms of edge size for the required weight or a heavy bat in terms of average edge/spine height.
Any decent batmaker will still ensure even the lower grade clefts are pressed to optimal performance levels. Having take the opportunity to make the 7 hours round trip to B3 to check out their set-up prior to stocking them im confident that they have a set-up thats probably only second the GM in terms of the equipment, size and processes they run. The B3 bats I have in stock are very well made and feel very solid in terms of the product itself with chunky shoulders, toe and middles and a very thick handle, they are aiming at the higher end of the market but no different to the M&H, WCW or even some Indian brands now that are looking at £300 for a G3, £400-£450 for a G2 and £600-700 for a G1.
As previously mentioned B3 get their willow from JS Wrights so will have to factor in the prices of clefts, handles, stickers, etc before they get don to the nitty gritty of what it costs them to actually make it into a bat, have staff present to deal with customers and process orders.
The vast majority of bat makers are one man bands so don't have people on the payroll that add to costs each month, they can therefore lower their costs on the products due to this.
Your points are obviously true but once again - are these consumer problems?
How many people does it take to make a bat? I only order one at a time so what interest is it of mine if B3 have 10 people on the payroll?
Im not picking on B3 here, you can apply to any of the large brands.
I hope this latest price trend is a boost for smaller makers, the value certainly lies in them and with the odd exception of the bats Ive had so does the quality advantage.
The last 'big' brand bat I purchased from the UK was a GM Diamond 808 for £250ish. Compared to what Ive got for similar prices or less since from smaller names it was quite frankly rubbish. Never again.
I think its fair to point out that we are very lucky on here to have contact to smaller brands/makers, special offers etc. And also the knowledge, for better or worse, that this forum provides.
For the vast majority who play cricket they either have the choice of the few mainstream brands that are in the Morrant catalogue or possibly a local maker with a bit of a following.
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I think the majority of players I know wouldn't consider paying much upwards of £200 on a bat, so find it odd that so many manufacturers don't offer this as a start point?
I noticed on the Kippax website, the cheapest bat they offer now is £295 (no grade listed) and they have their own willow, so aren't as governed by JS Wright.
When I first started playing, all our club kit bats were Kippax so can only assume they haven't always been this way. I know a few of our players that have used Kippax before, but won't now because of the start point
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Your points are obviously true but once again - are these consumer problems?
How many people does it take to make a bat? I only order one at a time so what interest is it of mine if B3 have 10 people on the payroll?
Im not picking on B3 here, you can apply to any of the large brands.
I hope this latest price trend is a boost for smaller makers, the value certainly lies in them and with the odd exception of the bats Ive had so does the quality advantage.
The last 'big' brand bat I purchased from the UK was a GM Diamond 808 for £250ish. Compared to what Ive got for similar prices or less since from smaller names it was quite frankly rubbish. Never again.
I think its fair to point out that we are very lucky on here to have contact to smaller brands/makers, special offers etc. And also the knowledge, for better or worse, that this forum provides.
For the vast majority who play cricket they either have the choice of the few mainstream brands that are in the Morrant catalogue or possibly a local maker with a bit of a following.
As a brand/bat maker you can only make so many bats per day due to the labour and processes involved, B3 have obviously reached a volume where they require staff to carry out the processes to fulfil this volume. They have expanded into the US with stockists too which look like quite large volumes.
It’s a real tough one in the cricket industry as you want to sell as many bats as you can to make more profit, however to scale up requires investment in machinery such as CAD/CAM, copy lathes and more technical stuff to produce the volumes required. Staff are then needed to operate them and this adds to overheads. You then need the willow to make the bats which is in high demand and prices are crazy currently.
Do you cap the volume of bats you make per day/week/month and scale back your labour costs to keep product costs low? Potentially missing out on sales or asking customers to wait for a product by making them in turn?
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As a brand/bat maker you can only make so many bats per day due to the labour and processes involved, B3 have obviously reached a volume where they require staff to carry out the processes to fulfil this volume. They have expanded into the US with stockists too which look like quite large volumes.
It’s a real tough one in the cricket industry as you want to sell as many bats as you can to make more profit, however to scale up requires investment in machinery such as CAD/CAM, copy lathes and more technical stuff to produce the volumes required. Staff are then needed to operate them and this adds to overheads. You then need the willow to make the bats which is in high demand and prices are crazy currently.
Do you cap the volume of bats you make per day/week/month and scale back your labour costs to keep product costs low? Potentially missing out on sales or asking customers to wait for a product by making them in turn?
You've got insight into B3, thanks for sharing.
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A problem with synthetic bats would probably be how they affect the ball, and also sustainability. There have been attempts to use materials other than wood, and was outright banned due to the effect it had on the ball. (Lillee's infamous aluminium bat)
There are alternative woods which do make a product, albeit normally with a tradeoff in a certain property. (Serbian can be too brittle, Kashmir/Aussie can be too dense - funnily enough all of which are of the same genus of tree) With the number of people playing, the kinds of weights people are using and shapes that are demanded, it needs to be a softwood that reaches maturity in a relatively short timeframe (Can be grown, cut and dried in a sensible timeframe and can be manipulated easily) that is low density (So it's light enough to use) but strong (Can withstand impact). I really don't like it that one company has this much influence over the cost of cricket bats, but I also wouldn't call it nonsense without some hard facts/examples of better alternatives.
None of these factors are insurmountable today. Lilly and his bat happened 40+ (??) years ago. Aluminum or even polymer bats could be tested against balls made with non-leather material. Bats made from varying density willow might not be an issue if willow was graded on density (thus standardizing some kind of a rebound factor/quotient). Etc. Etc.
We are talking amateur game here where changes to equipment rules will not (ought not) impact the pro game. I only see upside where renewed (and continued) interest in cricket helps pro-game viewership and stadium attendance.
MCC/ICC really needs to consider these options for amateur/non-pro game.
It'd be great if an enterprising bat maker tests out some non-willow/non-traditional material for bats and even balls. ;)
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None of these factors are insurmountable today. Lilly and his bat happened 40+ (??) years ago. Aluminum or even polymer bats could be tested against balls made with non-leather material. Bats made from varying density willow might not be an issue if willow was graded on density (thus standardizing some kind of a rebound factor/quotient). Etc. Etc.
We are talking amateur game here where changes to equipment rules will not (ought not) impact the pro game. I only see upside where renewed (and continued) interest in cricket helps pro-game viewership and stadium attendance.
MCC/ICC really needs to consider these options for amateur/non-pro game.
It'd be great if an enterprising bat maker tests out some non-willow/non-traditional material for bats and even balls. ;)
Im sure many on the forum are familiar with this study
https://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/bamboo-bats/ (https://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/bamboo-bats/)
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Do you cap the volume of bats you make per day/week/month and scale back your labour costs to keep product costs low? Potentially missing out on sales or asking customers to wait for a product by making them in turn?
The volume of bats made per day/week etc works for Salix but again this is a totally handcrafted process once the cleft arrives. If I was spending £400 ish I know where I would go over B3 or one of the more established brands and that’s purely because the end product in my opinion is better in all capacity’s including service, as well as the final product.
However you can’t have a one size fits all approach to business and the brands mentioned here like B3, GM, GN, Kippax etc must be doing something right as to remain in business is much harder than starting one.
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They're sub bats. Clearly states in the description....
https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r (https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r)
Funnily enough, this seems to be the same bat listed on eBay for £175 with no mention of any defects, which seemingly sold on Garrards site for £100 🤔 I could be wrong, but seems the same one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
Pretty shocking behaviour if that's actually a sub and someone's just gone to flip it like that. Last thing we'd want is for the scalping to happen to bats like it does for tickets to see a popular artist.
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Im sure many on the forum are familiar with this study
https://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/bamboo-bats/ (https://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/bamboo-bats/)
Wow! Thanks for sharing this. So many positives in this study! It seems like this was discussed in 2021 by ICC/MCC.
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They're sub bats. Clearly states in the description....
https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r (https://garrardcricket.com/products/workshop-stock-collection-2lb9-9oz-2?_pos=1&_sid=39d80c79e&_ss=r)
Funnily enough, this seems to be the same bat listed on eBay for £175 with no mention of any defects, which seemingly sold on Garrards site for £100 🤔 I could be wrong, but seems the same one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225473329336?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AK8rbvdlTia&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=phkDW9d0TMq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
A reputable seller, misusing 400 plus positive feedback, shocking!
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I see more and more of things like this unfortunately. I sold a storm damaged G3 bat on here for £100, clearly stated as storm damaged. It was sold on with the G3 sticker removed, as a G2 with no mention of the storm damage, for £160.
Nobodys perfect, but things like this are a touch naughty imo
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'a touch naughty' ? That's *&!@%*g disgraceful! I don't know how these people can sleep at night.
I do like Garrard's idea of burning a serial number into the bat. At lease it gives some proof of a bat's lineage in these situations.
I thought your comment "Can't wait to see some of these on eBay for �150 😆" on the GN offcuts thread was a bit of a laugh, but now I look at it differently. :(
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'a touch naughty' ? That's *&!@%*g disgraceful! I don't know how these people can sleep at night.
I do like Garrard's idea of burning a serial number into the bat. At lease it gives some proof of a bat's lineage in these situations.
I thought your comment "Can't wait to see some of these on eBay for �150 😆" on the GN offcuts thread was a bit of a laugh, but now I look at it differently. :(
come on why do you buy loads of bats the same . funny people are open about getting desirable weights even if it ain't there weight to sell them on because they have better chance.
Like I said in that post it sad when somebody who really wanted the bat in that weight but can't because somebody see making 20 quid or even worst talking pony about a bat.
it a laugh and many made jokey comments on the said posts but I know there racketeers.
oh well what's it got to do with me there money and morals.
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Wow! Thanks for sharing this. So many positives in this study! It seems like this was discussed in 2021 by ICC/MCC.
I don’t think anything came of it ultimately, but the positives regarding price, time to grow, sustainability and performance are all highlighted.
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Thank goodness for this forum as have learnt so much (maybe too much now!) about bats and grades etc. plus the forum has seen me save some well earned cash by buying some great bats and equipment from the likes of Neon and Garrard.
Prices for bats and pads etc. are expensive but there are options out there.
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I buy my Keeley’s from the factory as I’m local. £200 for a G3, I get to pick them all up, tap them with a hammer, choose the one I like best and have the choice of their stickers in any colour way. I think a G2 was £280. These prices are for locals at local clubs.
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Just catching up on this thread. I’d say the UK are simply falling into line with the rest of the world. In my opinion, you wouldn’t get a reasonable G1 in Australia for under $800aud (430gbp). Top end is now $1000 plus and has been for a while. $350-500aud (190-270gbp) gets you G3 from just about every maker/seller I can think of.