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Author Topic: Scott Borthwick  (Read 17250 times)

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Gerry SA

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2014, 12:16:36 AM »

Jones and Flintoff 2004 onwards were worldclass (Flintoff has less spells of it due to injury after 2005)

Hoggy was never near world class
Harry as Gerry said had a spell where he was but even by 2005 was a fading force
IMO Jones was an absolute star from the first time I saw him bowl. Had him down as a 300 Test wicket bowler.

Flintoff was a hard trier, turned it on against Australia. But wasn't world class.
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Alvaro

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 12:17:29 AM »

Yep. Spot on.
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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2014, 03:06:28 AM »

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cricketbadger

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 07:30:35 AM »

Again stats only tell half a story. Borthwick scored 200 more runs batting in the top order. I'm guessing Rashid's average was inflated by some not outs...

200 more runs in 6 extra innings.

Take away both there 'not outs' and Rashid still has the higher average, and scored bigger tons
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cricketbadger

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 07:34:17 AM »

No mate, no UCCE games included, all county championship as the link shows

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=7905;type=tournament

I'm sure Scott would have had a lot higher average batting where Rashid did due to the number of red inkers, Rashid, is this the same lad that got dropped to the 2s last year in favour of Rafiq because his bowling was so bad. If Scott can score runs at number 3 I'm sure he can score runs at 8 (where he batted for most of his career).


I think a falling out with the management was also the major cause of his drop down to the 2nds
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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 09:15:53 AM »

Fair enough he might average a few more, but for me the fact Borthwick bats and bowls on the greenest most seamer friendly deck in England where games rarely go into the 4th day compared to a relatively dry deck at Headingley and still have comparable batting and better bowling average shows Borthwick is a better cricketer than Rashid.

Not sure your account holds that much water here.

Batting - the fact is that his batting average last season is 11 a knock lower (and is inflated by cheap runs against the UCCE that Rashid did not get the opportunity to score) and five runs a pop lower over the course of the two men's respective careers.  You site environment but he played a maximum of half his knocks at Chester-le-Street (which is nowhere near the green seamer that it is reputed to be once spring passes - check the average first innings totals).   At worst, Rashid is as good - I think anyone who has seen the two bat would say that he is comfortably the better player.

But it is the bowling that is the biggest difference.  Whilst their raw figures were similar last year, those numbers do not reflect in full the different roles in which their respective sides used them - Borthwick was given a couple of overs against the tail which allowed the odd cheap wicket, whereas Rashid was asked to bowl sides out in the second dig or to hold up an end on some of the mid season Headingley roads.  As such, RAshid was exceptional value for the numbers when compared with Borthwick.  I would also point out that Borthwick has never really been a frontline spinner - he has only taken two five wicket hauls in 60 first class matches, compared with Rashid who has taken 17 in 115.  I challenge anyone to look at those figures and say that Borthwick is the more likely to take wickets in Test cricket!
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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2014, 09:19:03 AM »

Again stats only tell half a story. Borthwick scored 200 more runs batting in the top order. I'm guessing Rashid's average was inflated by some not outs...

Not disproportionately - and you have to bear in mind that on most of those occasions he was set, so therefore denied the chance to close that run scoring gap!
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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2014, 09:22:05 AM »

Borthwick averages 31 with the ball, Rashid averages 35, with Rashid bowling on a more spinner friendly wicket. Borthwicks economy rate is 3.7 Rashids is 3.55 hardly that much better? Those are career stats in FC cricket by the way, also some of those stats from Rashid will be from division 2 against teams such as Leicestershire. Don't understand how you can say Rashid is a better cricketer?

What is this more spinner friendly wicket on which Rashid bowls? 

Other than that, I've just made my case - I can't in turn see how anyone would think Borthwick was the better pick!
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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2014, 09:26:15 AM »

England didn't have 4 'world class' fast bowlers.

Hoggard was a hard trier. Nothing more.

Harmison had a purple patch from 2004-05. Mostly average in the test of his career.

Jones was world class. Shame injuries destroyed his career.

Flintoff wasn't ever world class. A couple of decent series in his whine career.

You do talk some crap.  Flintoff was world class, at least from 03 onward through 06 - right up to the end of his career he was the bowler that opposing batsmen feared.  Hoggard was also top drawer - a supreme artist when the ball swung, adept at blocking up an end when it didn't.  Harmy you may have an arguable point, though anyone who gets to number one in the world rankings...  Put the four together and you had a perfect combination of styles to adapt to any conditions.
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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2014, 01:23:00 PM »

Not sure your account holds that much water here.

Batting - the fact is that his batting average last season is 11 a knock lower (and is inflated by cheap runs against the UCCE that Rashid did not get the opportunity to score) and five runs a pop lower over the course of the two men's respective careers.  You site environment but he played a maximum of half his knocks at Chester-le-Street (which is nowhere near the green seamer that it is reputed to be once spring passes - check the average first innings totals).   At worst, Rashid is as good - I think anyone who has seen the two bat would say that he is comfortably the better player.

But it is the bowling that is the biggest difference.  Whilst their raw figures were similar last year, those numbers do not reflect in full the different roles in which their respective sides used them - Borthwick was given a couple of overs against the tail which allowed the odd cheap wicket, whereas Rashid was asked to bowl sides out in the second dig or to hold up an end on some of the mid season Headingley roads.  As such, RAshid was exceptional value for the numbers when compared with Borthwick.  I would also point out that Borthwick has never really been a frontline spinner - he has only taken two five wicket hauls in 60 first class matches, compared with Rashid who has taken 17 in 115.  I challenge anyone to look at those figures and say that Borthwick is the more likely to take wickets in Test cricket!

As I've already stated I haven't included any UCCE games in this, all CCD1 stats. I'd disagree completely about the Riverside wicket, ask any player, there isn't a more difficult place to bat in the country, possibly Trent Bridge when overhead conditions are favourable. I've seen both bat live and in my opinion Borthwick looks a more compact and relaxed batsman.

You stated earlier where is this spinner friendly wicket both Headingley and Scarbs offer considerably more turn than the Riverside, do you agree? That's a fair enough point about the different roles they play, however there is not much you can do when you have the best pace attack in the country blowing teams away. Obviously Rashid never bowled against the tail and took a cheap wicket, so can't see your argument there. I was at Scarbs when Durham beat Yorkshire and Borthwick comfortably out bowled Rashid, on a surface which offered a bit to the spinner maybe this is why he was picked ahead of Rashid?

Agree totally about Borthwick not running through teams but what I would say is he has to bowl after Onions, Rushworth, Thorpe, Wood, Claydon, Brathwaite and Harrison, after that let's be honest there's not gonna be too many wickets left to take? Rashid as you say bowls a lot more therefore is likely to take more wickets, Borthwick will probably bowl more for England than he does Durham!
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Gerry SA

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2014, 07:50:05 PM »

You do talk some crap.  Flintoff was world class, at least from 03 onward through 06 - right up to the end of his career he was the bowler that opposing batsmen feared.  Hoggard was also top drawer - a supreme artist when the ball swung, adept at blocking up an end when it didn't.  Harmy you may have an arguable point, though anyone who gets to number one in the world rankings...  Put the four together and you had a perfect combination of styles to adapt to any conditions.
Only crap talker is you my friend.

Flintoff had two years, typical English purple patch, where he was a stand out bowler.

From 2004-2005, Flintoff took 111 Test wickets @ 25 a piece.

The rest of his career he was average at best.

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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2014, 08:07:08 PM »

I've seen both bat live and in my opinion Borthwick looks a more compact and relaxed batsman.

You stated earlier where is this spinner friendly wicket both Headingley and Scarbs offer considerably more turn than the Riverside, do you agree? That's a fair enough point about the different roles they play, however there is not much you can do when you have the best pace attack in the country blowing teams away. Obviously Rashid never bowled against the tail and took a cheap wicket, so can't see your argument there. I was at Scarbs when Durham beat Yorkshire and Borthwick comfortably out bowled Rashid, on a surface which offered a bit to the spinner maybe this is why he was picked ahead of Rashid?

Agree totally about Borthwick not running through teams but what I would say is he has to bowl after Onions, Rushworth, Thorpe, Wood, Claydon, Brathwaite and Harrison, after that let's be honest there's not gonna be too many wickets left to take? Rashid as you say bowls a lot more therefore is likely to take more wickets, Borthwick will probably bowl more for England than he does Durham!

I've also seen both bat live, and I see things the other way - Borthwick is a perfectly decent county batsman (who has had one successfulish season and nowt much else) but has not evidenced the potential to be anything more, whereas Rashid appears to have the potential to be a counterattacking seven in Test cricket - the key difference being that Borthwick has not evidenced the temperament or shot range to score off top class bowling.

As for grounds....you really don't make much sense.  If you look at average first innings scores, which is the best guide, CLS is not far behind many other county grounds - which may have something to do with the quality of Durham's attack and sometimes the cloudy northern weather rather than the wicket itself.  I'll grant you Scarborough does sometimes spin - though if you'd been there for the Notts game you would not have thought it given the shirtfront strip, but Headingley has never been a wicket for spinners - it used to be the archetypal greentop and is now a slow, low, dull wicket that is barely fit for First Class cricket! 
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Manormanic

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2014, 08:09:23 PM »

Only crap talker is you my friend.

Flintoff had two years, typical English purple patch, where he was a stand out bowler.

From 2004-2005, Flintoff took 111 Test wickets @ 25 a piece.

The rest of his career he was average at best.

Not sure how you equate that with his bowling against Australia in 2006 and 2009, nor with his mammoth stints in the West Indies and in the UK. 

As for stats - the point with that England attack particularly is that it was set up with five mutually complementary bowlers, so none took as many five wicket bags as they might have in a lesser team.
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fros23

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2014, 10:39:12 PM »

I would love to see Borthwick do well as there is nothing like seeing a good leg spinner turning it big but I don't think he is ready for the big stage at the moment.  The problem is I don't see anyone at the moment who can come in and replace Swann with anywhere near the success that he had.  It will be interesting to see where the selectors go over the next couple of years because replacing Swann is going to be a massive task.
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smokem

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Re: Scott Borthwick
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2014, 02:27:22 AM »

Well Borthwick is picking up wickets. But he makes Steve Smith look like Shane Warne...
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