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[Manormanic]

Well Borthwick is picking up wickets. But he makes Steve Smith look like Shane Warne...

But picking them up when the slog is on in a game that has already been conceded.  This is my point - he rarely if ever takes significant wickets.

[DanBess13]

You've got to give Borthwick time with his bowling because as Shane Warne said Leg Spin is an art and it takes time to prefect it

[ProCricketer1982]

You've got to give Borthwick time with his bowling because as Shane Warne said Leg Spin is an art and it takes time to prefect it

And Warne himself got smashed didn't he early on?

[DanBess13]

Yeah his first test match for Australia his figures we 1-153 and look how he turned out so give him time to settle

[smilley792]

A lot of people seem to get confused with Warne' s first ball in ashes cricket, and his actual test match debut,

Even he admits he had a torrid debut,

[DanBess13]

Yeah his test match debut was against India

[ProCricketer1982]

A lot of people seem to get confused with Warne' s first ball in ashes cricket, and his actual test match debut,

Even he admits he had a torrid debut,

Not a bad ball though

[Manormanic]

A lot of people seem to get confused with Warne' s first ball in ashes cricket, and his actual test match debut,

Even he admits he had a torrid debut,

Though to be fair, it was torried because he was bowling at a classy Indian line up on a deck they knew inside out - it wasn't as though he was coming out with overs of half trackers and full bungers!

[Vitas Cricket]

As another forum member did, the first thing I did was look at Borthwicks grade cricket stats on the weetbix cricket website. His bowling on the whole has been far from impressive, with the bat in his first innings he got a ton but has barely done a thing since!

If I recall, they tried to get Tredwell on a plane ASAP, but with it being so close to Christmas I assume he/his family red lighted it. Borthwick was already in the country so was available immediately to join up with the squad and settle in. I think this had a big influence on his selection as Tredwell had little time to acclimatise and practice etc. (could be wrong on this one but I'm sure he didn't travel immediately)

I don't think rashid or Borthwick are good enough to play for England as spinners, and my opinion on bits and pieces cricketers is they have no place in a test squad. If England are going to genuinely go down the route of a 'bob-a-job' then it may as well be Samit, at least he has the advantage of experience.

We have two adequate part time spinners already in KP and Root, the choices of Borthwick, Rashid, Moeen Ali or anyone else who can send a few lobs down (I'll put my hat in the ring in terms of being able to guarantee 2 full tosses an over) can only be made as batsmen. If we throw them the ball when frontline bowlers need a rest or if we need to try something on a dead pitch and they make something happen then great, but we can't be picking these guys as bowlers.

Tredwell appears to be the only realistic option in terms of a proper spinner who is anywhere near the level we need. His problem being he isn't the match winner/breakthrough bowler that Swann was. He'll hold an end up and he won't let anyone down, he's the heir to Gilos crown. Unfortunately, we don't have the class of attack we had in the 2005 era that helped to cover for some of Giles' shortcomings. We can go back and forth about their merits as individuals (as it appears a few of you have done) but Flintoff/Hoggard/Harmison/Jones is about as perfectly balanced a bowling attack as you can get, save for a bit of left arm variety.

 

[awp]

You've got to give Borthwick time with his bowling because as Shane Warne said Leg Spin is an art and it takes time to prefect it

100%. The fact that you have a kid with the balls to bowl leg spin in a test match is huge. He needs to be treasured and nurtured, not yo yo'ed. Esp given he's a proper batsman.

Test match arena is a cruel master, but he should be given 2 test series go at it.

[csnew]

Though to be fair, it was torried because he was bowling at a classy Indian line up on a deck they knew inside out - it wasn't as though he was coming out with overs of half trackers and full bungers!

Don't believe warne was ever that successful against any indian line up to be fair

[Manormanic]

Don't believe warne was ever that successful against any indian line up to be fair

Nope, you're right there.  Can't quite recall his phrasing of it but Tendulkar gave him nightmares!

[Manormanic]

Tredwell appears to be the only realistic option in terms of a proper spinner who is anywhere near the level we need. His problem being he isn't the match winner/breakthrough bowler that Swann was. He'll hold an end up and he won't let anyone down, he's the heir to Gilos crown. Unfortunately, we don't have the class of attack we had in the 2005 era that helped to cover for some of Giles' shortcomings. We can go back and forth about their merits as individuals (as it appears a few of you have done) but Flintoff/Hoggard/Harmison/Jones is about as perfectly balanced a bowling attack as you can get, save for a bit of left arm variety.

Having derided Lyon as a clubbie, I think it would be hypocritical of me not to point out that Tredwell, for all his probably qualities as a person, is far worse.  Yes, he has done an okay job is some one dayers - though the way the Australian climbed into him at the end of the English SUmmer evidenced that his luck in that regard was in the process of running out - but then, Xavier Doherty looks okay bowling darts for Australia in that format and look what happened to him in Test cricket.  But look at Tredwell's first class stats for the last two/three years - he has hardly taken a wicket since picking up seven at Headingley on the last day of the 2011 season, and was leaking four plus an over last year in division two.

[Vic Nicholas]

Only crap talker is you my friend.

Flintoff had two years, typical English purple patch, where he was a stand out bowler.

From 2004-2005, Flintoff took 111 Test wickets @ 25 a piece.

The rest of his career he was average at best.

100% correct Gerry.

If we apply the "English purple patch" formula to guys like Brett Lee, then Lee was an all time great too (even though in Oz he is considered to be nothing more than a serviceable bowler).

Only English supporters would consider bowlers with averages in the 30's (Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, Anderson etc) as "world class".   

To the rest of the sane cricket following world, they are merely serviceable bowlers.

[tim2000s]

100% correct Gerry.

If we apply the "English purple patch" formula to guys like Brett Lee, then Lee was an all time great too (even though in Oz he is considered to be nothing more than a serviceable bowler).

Only English supporters would consider bowlers with averages in the 30's (Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, Anderson etc) as "world class".   

To the rest of the sane cricket following world, they are merely serviceable bowlers.

Is Dizzy considered to be an all time great? He has a better average than Thommo!!