England Vs India Test Matches
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ppccopener

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1440 on: September 04, 2018, 12:27:12 PM »

Moeen's attitude to do whatever is asked of him contrasts sharply with Bairstow's childish petulance over the wicketkeeping issue but you do feel that Ali needs a clear role in the batting line up if we are to get the most out of him.  He has opened and now batted 3 but he doesn't look best suited to either of those roles.  Bringing back Bell and dropping Root down to 4 where he wants to bat seems the best option with Ali batting 7/8 depending on the make up of the side

yes that's why it makes sense to recall a specialist and then the top order problem starts to get sorted.

England don't want to drop one of the all rounders thou that's why its tricky.

They are fudging the issue by not tackling the problem at the top
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six and out

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1441 on: September 04, 2018, 12:35:14 PM »

yes that's why it makes sense to recall a specialist and then the top order problem starts to get sorted.

England don't want to drop one of the all rounders thou that's why its tricky.

They are fudging the issue by not tackling the problem at the top

The only thing you could say is the Mo could bat at 3 in Sri Lanka, the ball does no where near as much and Sri Lanka are likely to open with spin anyways.
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Kulli

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1442 on: September 04, 2018, 12:36:50 PM »

Moeen's attitude to do whatever is asked of him contrasts sharply with Bairstow's childish petulance over the wicketkeeping issue but you do feel that Ali needs a clear role in the batting line up if we are to get the most out of him.  He has opened and now batted 3 but he doesn't look best suited to either of those roles.  Bringing back Bell and dropping Root down to 4 where he wants to bat seems the best option with Ali batting 7/8 depending on the make up of the side

Ali is best suited to 7/8 and counter-attacking/having a biff when the tail arrives, but that seems to be what they have brought Buttler in for, can maybe have them both in if YJB accepts that he is a batter and bats in the top 5.
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liscon12

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1443 on: September 04, 2018, 12:48:43 PM »

Ali should be no where near the top 5, he opened the batting in the UAE a few years back and that experiment didn't work. They need someone who isn't going to be a stop gap or a short term shoe-in, with Cook retiring we have the perfect opportunity to start a fresh and create a top 3 who will be given a chance to perform for a while......that being said there isn't an awful lot to choose from so my top 3 would be Jennings, Burns and Livingston
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stevat

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1444 on: September 04, 2018, 01:14:26 PM »

Wouldn't pick untried 30 plus year olds as there won't be a long term future in it for the player or England

There's plenty of players over the years who made their debuts late and went on to had stellar careers in Test teams - even if it's only for a few years rather than a dozen, that would still make them last a lot longer than the average English opener these days (bar Chef).

Hussey was 30, Voges was 35, they have two of the highest batting averages ever in Tests.

Also, what difference does it make if it's long or short term, you'd rather have worse players for a longer period of time than good players changing every five or six years?
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Seniorplayer

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1445 on: September 04, 2018, 02:50:00 PM »

There's plenty of players over the years who made their debuts late and went on to had stellar careers in Test teams - even if it's only for a few years rather than a dozen, that would still make them last a lot longer than the average English opener these days (bar Chef).

Hussey was 30, Voges was 35, they have two of the highest batting averages ever in Tests.

Also, what difference does it make if it's long or short term, you'd rather have worse players for a longer period of time than good players changing every five or six years?

Certainly wouldn't want worse players for any length of time the view is England  would benefit  more  picking players under 25 with a longer term future  at international level also
getting five years out of a 30 plus debutant is rarer than the steak i had for lunch.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:58:21 PM by Seniorplayer »
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stevat

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1446 on: September 04, 2018, 03:10:02 PM »

Certainly wouldn't want worse players for any length of time the view is England  would benefit  more  picking players under 25 with a longer term future  at international level also
getting five years out of a 30 plus debutant is rarer than the steak i had for lunch.
However, you could get two years out of them - and if they've earned their spot with Championship performances, and likely have soft skills gained through experience you're all the better for it.  I agree that if you've a 22 yo whom is in excellent form then they should be given the opportunity to play, but also if you've a 32 yo whom is in even better form and has put in the hard yards in first class cricket that they should be picked ahead of them.

I look at international cricket as the pinnacle of the sport, and that your best players should be selected, regardless of age.  Shouldn't be attempting to let players learn the game in Test cricket.  Also, one issue we've had with Root and Cook is the lack of captaincy experience - if the path to the England team is more hard fought, then they're likely to have captaincy experience, and if not certainly far greater tactical nous.
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golders

Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1447 on: September 04, 2018, 04:09:51 PM »

Agreed that just because someone is 32 they shouldn’t be ruled out. That is ageist and silly- like others have said- look at Hussey and Voges!

I’d want a left hand right hand combination- why not give Denly a go?Plus he bowls decent leagues now and is in the form of his life!He has played round the world and has been through the mill- and has come back stronger for it. I like that. Try Burns out- another one who deserves an opportunity and knows his game apparantly- the fact that he is a bit quirky I actually quite like! Then a right hander at 3- give Bell one last hurrah?Or even Hildreth- I would say Vince but I feel he would do well at 5,but our middle order is sorted. Any other ideas?
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ppccopener

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1448 on: September 04, 2018, 05:57:27 PM »

Agreed that just because someone is 32 they shouldn’t be ruled out. That is ageist and silly- like others have said- look at Hussey and Voges!

I’d want a left hand right hand combination- why not give Denly a go?Plus he bowls decent leagues now and is in the form of his life!He has played round the world and has been through the mill- and has come back stronger for it. I like that. Try Burns out- another one who deserves an opportunity and knows his game apparantly- the fact that he is a bit quirky I actually quite like! Then a right hander at 3- give Bell one last hurrah?Or even Hildreth- I would say Vince but I feel he would do well at 5,but our middle order is sorted. Any other ideas?

Personally I don't think we really deserve 3-1 up but that's just my opinion. We shouldn't forget we have won the series against the worlds number 1 side.

So there are problems but it's because we are lopsided with allrounders. bell for me but if not Vince and one other.

Jennings? I really don't know, he's not good enough I don't think

I would open with one of bell or Vince and one of them 3

It's clear Root will be batting 4 from now on...,,
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golders

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1449 on: September 04, 2018, 06:46:41 PM »

I don’t understand people suggesting Bell as an opener? For crying out load let’s give the guys a chance and at least bat people where they bat week in week out for their counties.Jeez
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Mister Le Chiffre

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1450 on: September 04, 2018, 07:51:39 PM »

Can everyone stop using Voges as an example. Granted Michael Hussey was one of the modern day greats, but Voges was an average player whom merely minnow bashed the Windies. Voges averaged over 500 against Windies, yet was made to look like a fool against England and South Africa
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golders

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1451 on: September 04, 2018, 07:56:59 PM »

Can everyone stop using Voges as an example. Granted Michael Hussey was one of the modern day greats, but Voges was an average player whom merely minnow bashed the Windies. Voges averaged over 500 against Windies, yet was made to look like a fool against England and South Africa

To be fair we have the Windies coming up so a Voges is a great shout in this case.
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Seniorplayer

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1452 on: September 04, 2018, 07:59:27 PM »

Personally I don't think we really deserve 3-1 up but that's just my opinion. We shouldn't forget we have won the series against the worlds number 1 side.

So there are problems but it's because we are lopsided with allrounders. bell for me but if not Vince and one other.

Jennings? I really don't know, he's not good enough I don't think

I would open with one of bell or Vince and one of them 3

It's clear Root will be batting 4 from now on...,,

Never really believed Indias number 1 test status was a true reflection due to the number of tests they have played at home.
 
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stevat

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1453 on: September 04, 2018, 08:01:04 PM »

Also, you can only beat what's on front of you, and Voges outscored all of their established batsmen.
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ppccopener

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #1454 on: September 06, 2018, 12:19:02 PM »

reportedly Bairstow back as keeper batsman for the Oval

which is a bit of a surprise

wonder if a frank exchange of views has taken place  :)
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