England’s international summer
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six and out

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #300 on: July 14, 2020, 10:07:56 AM »

I have come to the following conclusions -

1. We completely mis-read that pitch. Which had a knock on effect in picking the team and then the decision at the toss.
2. We again underestimated the West Indies ability
3. Ed Smith is like all other selectors that have gone before him.
4. Root has actually been stitched up if the Old Trafford pitch is a usual quick and bouncy one, as he then needs Wood & Archer, so he then has neither fresh, and has a tougher decision bringing Broad back for someone.
5. Denly is the modern day Ramprakash
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edge

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #301 on: July 14, 2020, 10:18:59 AM »

5. Denly is the modern day Ramprakash
Think Denly would probably take that comparison pretty well at the moment! His selection at 3 has always confused me - if you'd wanted an experienced county bat to come in and just block out a few to shore up the top order on a short term basis then Denly wouldn't even have come into the conversation. Amazing what a few cheap poles in foreign t20 leagues can do for you these days!
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LEACHY48

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #302 on: July 14, 2020, 10:23:38 AM »

Was the pitch clearly more suited to Broad? He's never had a spectacular record on flat slow ones and it's not like Anderson had it doing too much. Think Smith was fobbing Broad off with that one, he's just arguably no longer in the strongest England side. In any case if they'd wanted to change tactics, pick a pitch it up seamer and bowl first, I'd have backed Woakes over Broad anyway. With the plan they had the flaw was not enough runs, Archer and Wood looked dangerous on day 5.

I'm really not sure what 'argument' there is to suggest that archer (average of 28.1) and wood (average of 32.4) are better than broad who averages 28.4 with the ball with 485 test wickets behind him, and having been the leading wicket taker in South Africa, and in the ashes, (in similar conditions to the ageas).

Was the pitch clearly suited to someone who targets the stumps and nibbles it from full of a length, let me see.... Who was the leading wicket taker in that test? Shannon Gabriel, what does he do? Oh yeah, attack the stumps and nibble it from full of a length, who was the 2nd leading wicket taker? Jason Holder, and what does Jason holder do? Attack the stumps and nibble it from full of a length.

Broad does more with the ball than both Wood and Archer. That is a simple fact. Bowlers that move the ball were far more effective than those that don't in this match. That is also a fact. Therefore there's not really much argument to suggest anyone would have been better suited to this pitch than Broad, over Wood and Archer (who incidentally was picked for 'pace' but averaged 86mph in this test).
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 10:41:07 AM by LEACHY48 »
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edge

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #303 on: July 14, 2020, 10:48:50 AM »

Nah Archer moves it way more than Broad ever has, don't forget that just because he's quick. As for stats, take the Ashes as they both played it - Broad took 23 at 26 in the Ashes, Archer only took one less despite playing a game less - 22 at 20. Peak Broad vs Archer might be a more interesting conversation but for me Archer is comfortably ahead at present. On a tangent, felt like Stokes used him well in this test - spell lengths/tactics more sensible than Root has been at times.

Wood vs Broad is more contentious but totally understandable to go with Wood given his recent test performances and being fit to go after lockdown-enforced rest. Wood's figures from a couple of years ago when he bowled 80-85 most of the time are rubbish, but current Wood is a different bowler.

Broad pitching it up and attacking the stumps is a nice idea, but in practice he's spent the past few years bowling pretty lengths and relying on English pitches. Admittedly he's been better in the last couple of series, but he's left himself vulnerable at a time when the fast bowling stocks are suddenly looking a lot richer. Could level the same criticism on lengths at Jimmy at times, but his figures are significantly better. In any case, that's a tactical problem not a selection problem - don't tell me a test-class collection of fast bowlers can't bowl at the stumps if they want to! Expect Broad will play several tests this summer, but will be interesting to see where they go for the next test. A lot might depend on Wood's knees in the short term.
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LEACHY48

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #304 on: July 14, 2020, 11:05:45 AM »

Nah Archer moves it way more than Broad ever has, don't forget that just because he's quick. As for stats, take the Ashes as they both played it - Broad took 23 at 26 in the Ashes, Archer only took one less despite playing a game less - 22 at 20. Peak Broad vs Archer might be a more interesting conversation but for me Archer is comfortably ahead at present. On a tangent, felt like Stokes used him well in this test - spell lengths/tactics more sensible than Root has been at times.

Wood vs Broad is more contentious but totally understandable to go with Wood given his recent test performances and being fit to go after lockdown-enforced rest. Wood's figures from a couple of years ago when he bowled 80-85 most of the time are rubbish, but current Wood is a different bowler.

Broad pitching it up and attacking the stumps is a nice idea, but in practice he's spent the past few years bowling pretty lengths and relying on English pitches. Admittedly he's been better in the last couple of series, but he's left himself vulnerable at a time when the fast bowling stocks are suddenly looking a lot richer. Could level the same criticism on lengths at Jimmy at times, but his figures are significantly better. In any case, that's a tactical problem not a selection problem - don't tell me a test-class collection of fast bowlers can't bowl at the stumps if they want to! Expect Broad will play several tests this summer, but will be interesting to see where they go for the next test. A lot might depend on Wood's knees in the short term.

What a load of absolute rubbish. You are seriously trying to tell me that archer having played a handful of tests, is a better bowler than Broad who is world class? Give me a break. Archer moves it more than broad ever has? Were you watching the ashes? Broad had it going all over the shop while archer did not.

Wood over broad is equally as ridiculous, 'given his recent performances' - what you mean like being the leading wicket taker in 2 back to back test series? Those recent performances? Oh no, that wasn't wood, it was Broad. As someone else said, Wood had 1 good series, averages over 30 still and is suddenly the 95mph messiah that is going to save English cricket. 95mph gun barrel straight on a slow deck isn't actually going to do anything to test world class batsman, as shown by wood taking 2 wickets in 34 overs conceding 110 runs only 2 maidens. Buying them at 55 doesn't make you better than Stuart Broad.

'Broad has relied on English pitches' what... You mean like the one at the Ageas? In Southampton? Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is an English pitch?

If the test class collection of fast bowlers can bowl at the stumps then why didn't they? Pretty simple game cricket, the majority of dismissals are achieved by attacking the stumps. Which bowling attack bowled at the stumps more? The West Indies. Which team won the test? The West Indies.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 11:11:27 AM by LEACHY48 »
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ppccopener

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #305 on: July 14, 2020, 11:29:03 AM »

Think Denly would probably take that comparison pretty well at the moment! His selection at 3 has always confused me - if you'd wanted an experienced county bat to come in and just block out a few to shore up the top order on a short term basis then Denly wouldn't even have come into the conversation. Amazing what a few cheap poles in foreign t20 leagues can do for you these days!

Denly was not picked as a number 3, he was a stop gap pick buts that's a mighty harsh view of the situation in the last 18 months.
He has filled a spot no one else wanted at the time. I'm a Denly fan so trying to give an objective viewpoint- yes like a lot of others he has been found wanting at the highest level and won't get better at his age.

He has done a job for the team,not a great success I agree but let's have a bit of perspective.
If Crawley is the man to progress with great give the guy matches and time,no issue there.... :)
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edge

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #306 on: July 14, 2020, 11:29:44 AM »

Yep, I'd take Archer over Broad every time - Broad past his best for me, Archer first bowler on the teamsheet given Anderson's recent injury record. Wood averages 19 in his last two test series, so while Broad has upped his game after getting left out in SL I think Wood had a good case for selection. Could have selected almost any combo of the 5 seamers to be honest and I don't think performance would suffer much - nice to feel that way as an England fan after years of searching for third seamer! Don't think the bowling lost us the test anyway, getting 204 in the first innings after winning the toss did and I can't see that Broad would have helped much with that these days haha.

@ppccopener yeah I thought Denly as an allrounder-lite backup option in the subcontinent was a fair enough selection, but he never ended up playing that role! Denly at 3 is just a bizarre pick, even if he has done a tolerable job.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 11:31:30 AM by edge »
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six and out

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #307 on: July 14, 2020, 12:14:22 PM »

Yep, I'd take Archer over Broad every time - Broad past his best for me, Archer first bowler on the teamsheet given Anderson's recent injury record. Wood averages 19 in his last two test series, so while Broad has upped his game after getting left out in SL I think Wood had a good case for selection. Could have selected almost any combo of the 5 seamers to be honest and I don't think performance would suffer much - nice to feel that way as an England fan after years of searching for third seamer! Don't think the bowling lost us the test anyway, getting 204 in the first innings after winning the toss did and I can't see that Broad would have helped much with that these days haha.

@ppccopener yeah I thought Denly as an allrounder-lite backup option in the subcontinent was a fair enough selection, but he never ended up playing that role! Denly at 3 is just a bizarre pick, even if he has done a tolerable job.

You say broad wouldn't have helped with 1st innings runs, and maybe not with the bat, but the fact is, if they select Broad over Wood then Stokes bowls 1st and then it changes everything. Broad and Jimmy with overcast conditions forecast for 2 days are not letting Stokes bat 1st. Jimmy even said he missed having Broad at mid off to run things by during the game.
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edge

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #308 on: July 14, 2020, 12:38:43 PM »

You say broad wouldn't have helped with 1st innings runs, and maybe not with the bat, but the fact is, if they select Broad over Wood then Stokes bowls 1st and then it changes everything. Broad and Jimmy with overcast conditions forecast for 2 days are not letting Stokes bat 1st. Jimmy even said he missed having Broad at mid off to run things by during the game.
At the toss Stokes said he batted first because they thought the pitch would break up and didn't want to bat last, I don't see that Broad over Wood would have changed that. If they wanted to go by conditions they would have left Wood out and picked Broad or Woakes, surely? A la West Indies taking the opposite approach and dropping Cornwall, which certainly paid off!
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Jimbo

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Re: England�s international summer
« Reply #309 on: July 14, 2020, 01:08:13 PM »

Aren't we all missing the obvious... get Woakes fit and that's your top order bat and premier English condition bowler position sorted in one :D

Woakes definitely adds depth to the batting, he's a different class to Bess or Curran at 8. Incredible bowling record in England which never seems to get the recognition it deserves.
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: England�s international summer
« Reply #310 on: July 14, 2020, 01:12:58 PM »

Wood at his best is unplayable and I don't think we have anyone else who can bowl 90mph as regularly, he's also very consistent he just had a bad game

45. A.  Piece for his wickets in UK would tell me he didn’t just have this as a bad game. I like Wood but think like stokes he is quite expensive sometimes and normally delivers a boundary ball an over. The issue is Englands batting at the moment isn’t scoring runs at a level to allow a front line Bowler to go at that kid of rate per wicket no mater how much X factor he may have. I’m not saying he shouldn’t play but if he and archer play that you need the other 3 bowlers to be fairly economical. Stokes isnt as we know and neither are our spinners so its a tough call really. As a spectator its great to see Wood and Archer steaming in but I don’t think its the best option for England to win test matches at the moment. Broad, Anderson, Woakes and one of those two which as has been said Archer for me is the better bowler all round out of those two
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ppccopener

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #311 on: July 14, 2020, 04:42:43 PM »

The selectors decided ages ago that the only way to win the Ashes is pace bowling and that is the magic bullet completely ignoring everything else it seems, so that is why you see what you see.

You could well be right, that leaves us with our two quickest bowlers already played on a pitch with no real pace and the Windies bowlers were not bothered as @LEACHY48 pointed out...they read the pitch better than us in our own conditions.

I do wish we would stop this obsession with Ashes cricket, there's plenty of other teams to play first. It's almost disrespectful to the rest of the test playing nations.

anyway....squad announcement has been delayed for Old Trafford, unsurprising as they are probably hoping not everyone pulls up fit to untangle the flawed thinking from the first match.
 :)
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Jeff Navarro

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Re: England�s international summer
« Reply #312 on: July 14, 2020, 06:18:15 PM »

Looks like Leach could be recalled with Root’s off breaks as the backup
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ppccopener

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Re: England’s international summer
« Reply #313 on: July 14, 2020, 06:22:10 PM »

Yes I read that as well. Both Leach and Bess are good I think. They may want turn away from the right handers that might explain it
I think Bess is going to be very good for us long term..
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Jeff Navarro

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Re: England�s international summer
« Reply #314 on: July 14, 2020, 06:26:51 PM »

Think that Sikh boy at Surrey, Vardy? Might be the one to look out for.
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