Topic: England v India series (Read 84032 times)

Jimbo · « **Reply #435 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:25:39 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on August 19, 2021, 07:04:10 AM

but he is not good enough with the ball
not good enough with the bat

I mean, quite literally the only positives ever said are 'he can hit a few balls' 'he's variation' 'he's really aggressive'. is that really the quality of player that should be even considered a test player

He's certainly a luxury player in this side that they probably can't afford just now. There's a good Wisden article about why his stats, in part, reflect the role he has been asked to do by England of "making things happen".

With so many big players missing I would personally rather see Overton in to improve the consistency and reliability of the bowling and lower order batting, but I can see why Curran shouldn't be totally dismissed.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #436 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:28:51 AM »

Quote from: WABH-J on August 18, 2021, 06:15:47 PM

The reality is all players fit into 1 of 4 broad categories:

1) Proven Legends. These players will likely only not be selected due to injury or rotation. If they get into a bad patch of form they're likely to be played anyway in the hope they can play themselves back into form.
Examples in Current side: Anderson, Broad, Root, Stokes

2) Quality Place Holders. These players meet the 'international player' quality line and are capable of looking like they belong but are primarily selected on form. The thing these players all have in common is that they have shown they are capable of outstanding performances, but usually are unable to reproduce this form consistently enough to be automatic picks and earn them Category 1 status. This is a much larger category than category 1 and so players are picked on form/ match conditions.
Examples in current side: Bairstow, Moeen

3) Desperate Place Holders. Players who, were there half decent alternatives that weren't considered gambles, would likely not be selected. Very much 'for now' men. Capable of quality performances but rarely look comfortable at the highest level. They show just enough to make you think that they might be Category 2 players but ultimately are unable to banish their demons.
Examples in current side: Burns

4) The un-placed. Young players who are still developing and could therefore fall into any of categories 1-3.

Our problem as a media/ support base is that we categorise people far too early. Someone scores a ton and half the media claim that someone special has been found - but that's rarely the case. It is also the reality that in a good generation half your team will be Category 1 players (think of the Strauss era), in a weaker period (now) there is a much more even spread across all categories. You can't necessarily select out of this issue and the crux is that there isn't enough CC cricket to allow us to select on form. If we're honest Malan, Vince, Lyth etc are all category 2/3 players but we can't pick them based on form because we have no idea who is actually in form! This is also why the old hats like Bairstow continuously get selected ie they've shown they are capable of producing good performances and the chances of them coming into form are considered less risky than picking a Cat 4 players - plenty of people disagree with this approach but management of risk is particular to each coach.

This manifests itself in patchy performances because if half your team are category 2/3 players, for everyone that succeeds the other fails and this advantage cancels each other out. Conversely if they all fire on the same day you think you have a team of legends and are then surprised when two matches later they all fail and you get an absolute drubbing!

Moeen and Bairstow (add in Buttler) wouldn't get close to the Strauss era cat 1 .... Again, over rating Moeen and Bairstow

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #437 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:39:22 AM »

Quote from: WABH-J on August 18, 2021, 06:15:47 PM

if they all fire on the same day you think you have a team of legends and are then surprised when two matches later they all fail and you get an absolute drubbing!

This is quite literally what it's like reading this forum though and listening to the media. No one is literally being realistic or brutally honest about these players.

Bairstow - I'm sure he is 'in the best' top 7 we have currently.. HOWEVER, stop saying he deserves his spot etc et.c. just call it out as being utterly dire and we are desperate for a replacement. Not as soon as he has half a decent game start claiming he's test class again etc etc (insert Moeen/Butter/Curran (lets not forget how wildly in love people are with him because he had ONE good series a Long while ago).

I don't REALLY care if Bairstow plays or not btw, this side is so poor. It's more that people aren't be honest about these players quality (or lack of) and then when they happen to have a good one suddenly they are great again rather than 'He's just produced a freak knock, well played lad'.. very diifferent to 'oh how great is he, he can bat 3 woooooooo'

brokenbat · « **Reply #438 on:** August 19, 2021, 03:48:21 PM »

I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn�t mean �quality�
3. It also means that as much as you�d love to, you can�t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no �young talent� smashing the door down - you�ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and �should� lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.

ppccopener · « **Reply #439 on:** August 19, 2021, 04:26:11 PM »

Quote from: brokenbat on August 19, 2021, 03:48:21 PM

I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn�t mean �quality�
3. It also means that as much as you�d love to, you can�t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no �young talent� smashing the door down - you�ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and �should� lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.

You're right. Most of us on here I think know the side is in transition and we have tried to get younger batsmen in the team, that hasn't worked well up till now but you have to invest in youth at some point and hope they are good enough-they are the best players we have.
Losing against the best team in the world and the second best is not a disaster, what some of us maybe are realising thou is Root is doing the job with one hand behind his back and seemingly without support of the management.

After the last test they should of come out and backed Root when he needed it,we know he is not a good Captain and needs Stokes on the field.

Silverwood and Giles are not upto the job and that may cause more damage than a few lost test matches.
Personally I think that is a bigger problem than the team currently.

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #440 on:** August 19, 2021, 08:03:36 PM »

If you�re a bowler with an unorthodox technique you can still thrive in international cricket. I don�t think the same can be said for batting. Sure there�s the exception of Steve Smith, who has an amazing eye, and still gets in to good positions in his own way, but others are few and far between. The problem with England�s batting is that we have SO many players with techniques that you wouldn�t coach. In the first test you could argue that 5 out of the top 7 had unorthodox techniques, some which may work in white ball, but don�t in the longer form, especially when they make the jump from domestic to international.

When you only have Root and Crawley batting in an orthodox fashion, and Burns, Sibley, Bairstow, Lawrence and Buttler batting in their own, individual styles, I question whether any input from the England batting coaches will do more harm than good.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #441 on:** August 19, 2021, 08:40:39 PM »

Quote from: brokenbat on August 19, 2021, 03:48:21 PM

I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn�t mean �quality�
3. It also means that as much as you�d love to, you can�t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no �young talent� smashing the door down - you�ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and �should� lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.

See, I agree but it seems most here don't. They actually think these guys are any good and after a random knock suddenly these guys are test quality and awesome (Bairstow in the last test does very very 'OK' and suddenly he's great again as an example).. Curran might biff a few like he did in the series vs India before he's the next Botham.. etc etc

Nothing wrong with having a weak side, in fact.. it makes no odds either way.. What's annoying is most here and the media BS these guys up and seem to not accept they aren't actually any good

billyb · « **Reply #442 on:** August 21, 2021, 04:35:28 AM »

I know we are all being a bit doom and gloom, but I think it is just going to take a while for this new generation to mature and season into the players we hope they will be. Crawley is 23, Hameed is 24, Pope is 23, Sibley is 25, Lawrence is 24, Dom Bess is 24. They have plenty of time to come good. Obviously, we want that to be sooner rather than later, but even if just two of them turn into top-class players, they will help ensure the success and stability of the side in the future. I think there is plenty of talent in that cohort. Players like Sam Hain and so on aren't far away either.

I don't think we will see a truly strong England test side for a while. In some ways, Anderson and Broad's departure coming sooner than later might speed up the development process of our younger bowlers, but I don't see how we will be winning series against top sides regularly. Soon the band-aid of Broad and Anderson will be ripped off, and then things really will be weird for England fans.

I have a lot of sympathy for players like Woakes and Foakes who just haven't had the careers they arguably should have had in the test side.

rickjames · « **Reply #443 on:** August 23, 2021, 09:35:14 AM »

Wood ruled out. Another seamer, who knew.

Hope we get to see Mahmood play

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #444 on:** August 23, 2021, 09:59:37 AM »

Quote from: rickjames on August 23, 2021, 09:35:14 AM

Wood ruled out. Another seamer, who knew.

Hope we get to see Mahmood play

I bet it will be Overton.

ppccopener · « **Reply #445 on:** August 23, 2021, 10:07:22 AM »

Could be both unless Curran leads the attack, which is a contradiction in terms

mo_town · « **Reply #446 on:** August 23, 2021, 10:27:12 AM »

Surely they need the all round talents of a certain Darren Stevens! What they need is a matchwinner!

Jeff Navarro · « **Reply #447 on:** August 24, 2021, 10:46:36 AM »

Seems like the team for the third test is as following:
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root (c)
Bairstow
Buttler (w/k)
Moeen
Robinson
Overton
Mahmood
Anderson

Think Overton as fourth seamer adds more bite to the bowling

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #448 on:** August 24, 2021, 11:48:53 AM »

Quote from: Jeff Navarro on August 24, 2021, 10:46:36 AM

Seems like the team for the third test is as following:
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root (c)
Bairstow
Buttler (w/k)
Moeen
Robinson
Overton
Mahmood
Anderson

Think Overton as fourth seamer adds more bite to the bowling

An average of 45 and a strike rate of 79 indicates otherwise. Take out his debut and his average would be 60, and strike rate just shy of 100.

Jeff Navarro · « **Reply #449 on:** August 24, 2021, 11:52:24 AM »

Quote from: SouthpawMark on August 24, 2021, 11:48:53 AM

An average of 45 and a strike rate of 79 indicates otherwise. Take out his debut and his average would be 60, and strike rate just shy of 100.

Give him a chance...
Curran is 1-171 in the series

Author Topic: England v India series (Read 84032 times)

Jimbo

Re: England v India series

ProCricketer1982

Re: England v India series

ProCricketer1982

Re: England v India series

brokenbat

Re: England v India series

ppccopener

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SouthpawMark

Re: England v India series

ProCricketer1982

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billyb

Re: England v India series

rickjames

Re: England v India series

SouthpawMark

Re: England v India series

ppccopener

Re: England v India series

mo_town

Re: England v India series

Jeff Navarro

Re: England v India series

SouthpawMark

Re: England v India series

Jeff Navarro

Re: England v India series