Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: jonpinson on January 09, 2011, 09:02:36 PM
-
Not wanting to derail, thought I'd start my own.
A comment made in his thread got me wondering about pros having bats made at a particular place. Let us imagine a scenario.
Pro player X is sponsored by Kookaburra/GN/GM (you get the point) but actually pays to have his bats made by Salix/H4L/SAF (you get the point). The bats are of course labelled up as the sponsor's product.
The small batmaker who is paid by the pro selects his best willow to go into the pro's bats. As desribed, low density, high performance, short life.
Pro gets some top bats and is happy.
Now, here's the thing. Assuming that the real identity of the batmaker is kept secret as part of the contract, so the batmaker cannot profit from using the name of the pro is his marketing, what does the batmaker get from the deal? How does it differ any more from you or I ordering a bat from him? Why is the batmaker so determined to keep his best wood for the pro when he benefits no more from it than a normal sale?
I must say it grinds with me a bit when I hear a batmaker saying he holds back his best for the pros. Is their money better than ours? Why should we not be given the option of the best materials?
Before someone points it out, I realise the situation is very different is the small batmaker does indeed sponsor the player. It makes more sense in that circumstance.
-
Have to say I was under the impression that Pro's didn't pay for their bats very often - in which case this wouldn't happen. They'd also get their sponsor to copy their old bats so they didn't have to continue to pay for bats elsewhere.
Anyone care to correct me?
-
Good question
Maybe the prestige around the circuit and other areas
Maybe the fact most pay RRP for there bats.....
Maybe it the fact batmaking in general is a dark art which us mere mortals do not understand and little shred i have seen seems full of people bigging up there brands ...
I can confirm some pro pay for there bat
There sponsorship is given in different ways surely a brand will explain better but some brands give limits to a player ie 2k on equipment and so on
I
-
yeah its like getting less for your money (nothing on show) in effect, a good point jon! Would be itneresting to hear what they say...
I suppose if they didnt keep the best willow the pro wouldnt come to them and so they'd miss out on money that way, as the best willow is limited they want to keep it for them and not use it on any folk. maybe?
its more they dont want to lose pro business by not having the wood than not wanting to sell to public?
-
ego
-
Vanity would be one of the main reasons. Look how many claim to make bats for Tendulkar.
-
H4l have sold pro bats on here before I seam to remember.....
A couple of absolutely huge 2.9's
-
Have to say I was under the impression that Pro's didn't pay for their bats very often - in which case this wouldn't happen. They'd also get their sponsor to copy their old bats so they didn't have to continue to pay for bats elsewhere.
Anyone care to correct me?
I've certainly heard of pros paying for bats because they rate the maker so highly. Thinking about it sensibly, if you were a batmaker would you be happy to make bats for free and get nothing in return (i.e someone else stickers on your bat?) I'd imagine most have to pay in this circumstance.
I believe M&H were very proud in the early days of never giving a bat to anyone for free. All the pros that used them came and paid, based purely on their performance.
-
Tom do you buy into low density clefts and there legitimacy Natural or Man made???? or a mixture of both
-
Thanks for starting his Jon, I was going to get some replies off the podshavers and then hit the nail on the head with same questions you have raided.
Well if I am paying £250-£350 for my bat compared to a pro who is getting them from free or half that price, then why should I as a customer have to pay more for a (probably) inferior bat and also to pay the Pros fees???
-
Good question
Maybe the prestige around the circuit and other areas
Maybe the fact most pay RRP for there bats.....
Maybe it the fact batmaking in general is a dark art which us mere mortals do not understand and little shred i have seen seems full of people bigging up there brands ...
I can confirm some pro pay for there bat
There sponsorship is given in different ways surely a brand will explain better but some brands give limits to a player ie 2k on equipment and so on
I
-
Tom do you buy into low density clefts and there legitimacy Natural or Man made???? or a mixture of both
You buy clefts - you don't buy low density or heavy clefts. It's all the luck of the draw and one of the main reasons why they're so prized.
-
i think he was asking what you think about them tom..
-
Good question
Maybe the prestige around the circuit and other areas
Maybe the fact most pay RRP for there bats.....
Maybe it the fact batmaking in general is a dark art which us mere mortals do not understand and little shred i have seen seems full of people bigging up there brands ...
I can confirm some pro pay for there bat
There sponsorship is given in different ways surely a brand will explain better but some brands give limits to a player ie 2k on equipment and so on
I
All that you say makes sense, but I really don't understand the determination by some makers to set 'pro' willow apart from 'standard' G1. I could understand it much more if the small batmaker was sponsoring someone, you'd want your best gear on show. That makes sense. But in the situation I first described, I just can't see the positives.
Indeed, surely it could be argued that a maker would want his best willow to go into bats that will carry his logos. I.e the bats that you and I will buy and use.
-
yes sorry i did not mean DO you buy them
-
yeah its like getting less for your money (nothing on show) in effect, a good point jon! Would be itneresting to hear what they say...
I suppose if they didnt keep the best willow the pro wouldnt come to them and so they'd miss out on money that way, as the best willow is limited they want to keep it for them and not use it on any folk. maybe?
its more they dont want to lose pro business by not having the wood than not wanting to sell to public?
Agree Sam, but £300 from a pro is the same as £300 from you or I when it is in the bank account. Beyond that, there are alot more of you and me ready to buy...
-
i think he was asking what you think about them tom..
Ahh. In that case - it's much easier to sell a big bat. People demand huge edges as that's what is being used on TV. Pro's edges are huge as their clefts are very light, to get those on consumer bats you need to put the willow through a secondary drying clefts.
-
Vanity would be one of the main reasons. Look how many claim to make bats for Tendulkar.
But is that not a bit of a unique example? If the batmaker is legally bound to silence on the topic by the terms of the sponsorship by the big brand, unless he breaks that silence and risks losing the deal and potentially legal action against him, is it worth it?
-
Hallelujah so is there any difference between a low density cleft and a bat artificial dried in terms of performance not durability
-
H4l have sold pro bats on here before I seam to remember.....
A couple of absolutely huge 2.9's
I seem to remember they were just shown as examples, and were on their way to a pro. I also think the pro was sponsored by H4L, which is a different situation.
-
It's tricky - the podshaver can't use the players images rights and the player cannot endorse another brand. But what's to stop old podshaver telling a few mates who spread it round for them? It happens though, hence why you heard about Matt Prior/Dhoni using Fusion's and Ricky Ponting using Bradbury's etc
-
Hallelujah so is there any difference between a low density cleft and a bat artificial dried in terms of performance not durability
I don't know enough about the mechanics of willow to answer definitively. I'd still think the low density cleft performs better though.
-
Hallelujah so is there any difference between a low density cleft and a bat artificial dried in terms of performance not durability
Nail and head mate.
We are taught that if a bat becomes too dry it becomes brittle and will break. We are also taught by the same batmakers that LD willow has the best performance, but may have a shorter life.
Call my cynical, but I'm beginning to think LD willow is just willow with lower moisture content (whether naturally or artificially). The two examples, one sought after, the other to be avoided at all costs are beginning to sound oddly similar...
-
Agree Sam, but £300 from a pro is the same as £300 from you or I when it is in the bank account. Beyond that, there are alot more of you and me ready to buy...
but £300 from a pro for a pro bat and £250 from us for next best is £550, however £300 from us for pro one and no pro clefts left for pro means only £300 gained....
although after typing i realise we'd probably buy a 250 as well so could be same!
ignore me!
-
It's tricky - the podshaver can't use the players images rights and the player cannot endorse another brand. But what's to stop old podshaver telling a few mates who spread it round for them? It happens though, hence why you heard about Matt Prior/Dhoni using Fusion's and Ricky Ponting using Bradbury's etc
It seems a hell of a gamble for the sake of extra sales. Perhaps the legal 'gagging orders' don't exist, or not with such severe consequences as I think.
I know there was a rumour that Steve Waugh used Bradbury over here in the '01 series when he was using unbranded bats, the period between GM and MRF. I guess when you have his stature you're not going to keep the bradbury stickers on unless they paid for it.
-
My question come onto Indian bats
The top quality ones most are massive for there weight most go like stink but most do not last and i agree or think most are over dried are they on bar with low density English bat???
I know Andy will come on and blow all my theory out of the water and fair play if he does there all good questions
-
I would presume reputation, pro talks about who he makes bats for him then fileters down.
For example round hear county captain used blank bats + everyone round here was using them bernie facer blanks helped they were a good price but everyone was using them
-
but £300 from a pro for a pro bat and £250 from us for next best is £550, however £300 from us for pro one and no pro clefts left for pro means only £300 gained....
although after typing i realise we'd probably buy a 250 as well so could be same!
ignore me!
Answer me this, which of those would you likely buy, given that money was no object? 'Pro' willow is all the rage. If you and I bought one, we'd tell our mates, who'd tell their mates etc etc. Mr pro wouldn't exactly go around telling all and sundry if he was contracted to another brand...
-
My question come onto Indian bats
The top quality ones most are massive for there weight most go like stink but most do not last and i agree or think most are over dried are they on bar with low density English bat???
I know Andy will come on and blow all my theory out of the water and fair play if he does there all good questions
That's my theory. Asian bats are big and go well, but are known to break down sooner rather than later. Seems to tick all the boxes.
I'd like to get my GT moisture tested, it is enormous for it's weight, if anything proved the theory, this would.
-
Not sure you have seen my ss it weight 2lb 6oz and goes like a bullit and is massive your not getting 40mm edges on a 2lb 6 without something but it goes well yes i have no doubt it will not last forever...
I have also another in the airing cupboard now which started at 3lb and going to try and get it down to around 2lb 9oz just to see
sorry JON I will try and stay on topic
-
Not sure you have seen my ss it weight 2lb 6oz and goes like a bullit and is massive your not getting 40mm edges on a 2lb 6 without something but it goes well yes i have no doubt it will not last forever...
I have also another in the airing cupboard now which started at 3lb and going to try and get it down to around 2lb 9oz just to see
sorry JON I will try and stay on topic
You are very much on topic as far as I can see :) Carry on.
-
I should add I am going into this with a touch of cynicism.
Still like to hear from the batmakers though :)
-
Until Andy goes back on we will not find the anwsers or maybe we think about it to much
Maybe people are sick of spending big bucks on a bat that in truth only cost more because of 1 sticker ie Limited Edition/Pro Performance and the likes
We all know grains are for looking at and different company's grade on looks and some performance...It is a mixed up place and i expect most of the brands/company's like this
Would't it be nice to know the more you pay the better it will be a guarantee i understand it a natural product and this could never be but with so much choice it hard to choose a bat you know will perform
-
I am suprised that nobody has mentioned the pressing involved with low-density or lower moisture clefts - does the process become more difficult? Is there a minimum moisture level required to press a bat? There is an obvious difference between moisture and density - yet it sounds like the same outcome applies to both - diminished longevity.
-
But does it account for same performance if there pressed the same???
-
Dave
With comments like that people are going to start thinking that this elusive search for the holy Grail in the bat world is alot simpler than we've all made it out to be and more importantly alot cheaper
-
Dave
With comments like that people are going to start thinking that this elusive search for the holy Grail in the bat world is alot simpler than we've all made it out to be and more importantly alot cheaper
And we couldn't have that now, could we ;)
Interesting to see several batmakers reading this thread...
-
low density cleft
over dried cleft
pressed the same which would be better in terms of performance???? and performance only
only question i want answering it could save me and othere lots of money maybe why nobody has ever answered it big brands and it might be a question noboby would like to answer
-
I love this forum although I think we ALL over think about our bats....
In principle, They're all made from the same material... I think the key is too find a bat that you like the feel of and feel confident/ comfortable with albeit pressed to perfection and effing huge for it's weight
-
agree bud as a budding batmaker /killer i interested and my demo is in full swing at the minute
-
low density cleft
over dried cleft
pressed the same which would be better in terms of performance???? and performance only
only question i want answering it could save me and othere lots of money maybe why nobody has ever answered it big brands and it might be a question noboby would like to answer
Lets be fair. Knowing what I do about wood, letting the moisture content reduce naturally is 'better' than forcing it, with artificial conditions for instance kilning. It applies to wood used in construction, display, tone (instruments).
I'm not sure if it is fair to describe naturally LD (whether that be due to a naturally lower level of moisture, or some other factor, e.g cellular structure) as the same as over dried willow. I can't say with certainty that the two will have the same characteristics.
Would love to hear from those in the know...
-
I love this forum although I think we ALL over think about our bats....
In principle, They're all made from the same material... I think the key is too find a bat that you like the feel of and feel confident/ comfortable with albeit pressed to perfection and effing huge for it's weight
You are right of course. This is purely conjecture. Fun though, isn't it?
-
Great fun indeed :)
-
empty your inbox arboracultrist
No need for language like that :D
-
Low density willow is rare . . .my understanding is that the moisture content will be the same as a normal cleft but will weigh less.
over dried willow is not rare. . . .any piece of willow can be over dried and hence reduced weigh. LDW same moisture content as a non LDW cleft if u like, but weighs less on the scales.
-
all we want to know now is performance Ahmed we past all that
-
sorry Dave, just loged on and got up to speed,
performance comes from two things, the pressing and the amount of wood behind the ball.
if we are sold real pro bats for say 300 quid, they only last 500-800 runs ( thats 4 games for me lol)
we would send it back as a warrantee repair. the batmaker loses out.
i have heard of comapnies over pressing to reduce warrantee work. . the opposite if u ike
-
Gm said that maximum performance came at the optimal moisture levels of the bat from their research....therefore is this is true lowering the moisture content could have an adverse effect on the performance of the bat
-
or ir would not last longer hence the warranty and life span
it interesting James Laver offers extra drying but if you go for this option it voids the warrenty but he says not the perfromance
and that only on his reserve bat
-
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=4871.msg66416#msg66416
keep reading there the same but do you get same performance
-
Oh well i think i have my answer then there been a lot of bat makers look at this topic and there silence is deafening
-
I'll turn the question round, as I gave you an explanation why I wasn't answering this question last night!
Why does it matter, do you get a moisture content reader on all the bats you buy sell and would you know what is an acceptable range moisture content of a bat?
-
As i was lying in bed last night, I was giving this interesting thread some thought. It occurred to me that although Cricket Bats must be made of willow, baseball bats are often made of aluminium.
With an aluminium bat, you get a different noise, but the bat still has a weight, mass, MMi and CoR, and of course a MoE, and the shapes are similar whether would or Aluminium. In addition, the way it is used is different.
The question is really, aside from the pressing on a cricket bat blade, does it really matter whether it is a low density cleft, an overdried cleft, or a completely normal cleft? If a bat performs well enough according to any tests that you undertake, e.g. dropping a known mass on it from a known height and measuring rebound, and picks up in a way that you like, surely the skill and timing of the batsman is far more important in firing the ball to the boundary at a high speed than the size of the spine on the bat?
I'll give you the hypothetical situation of Marcus Tescothick's Mongoose challenge. You and he are both at Lord's with a bowling machine pinging down ball after ball consistently, and you take 12 balls each, sharing the same bat. Who is most likely to hit the ball over the Lord's pavilion?
-
Tim - this hits the nail on the head. People on the forum are obsessed with "pro bats" and it frustrates me that members don't allow for the fact that Pro’s are just more talented and practice more and will therefore make any bat sound better than an amateur would.
-
Tim, thinking about aluminium bats in bed is quite disconcerting :o. I have pondered similar issues as you have albeit over a glass of wine. What this excellent forum does apart from sharing knowledge is that it messes with our minds and finances.I played for many years with one bat but in the last 2 years have bought 8 bats from Lavers to laminates in the search of the ultimate performance bat. It is certainly a mental thing as my average has improved and confidence levels knowing that I am using a bigger and more powerful bat. Surely its all in the head as at our level the difference is more in the skill and timing of the individual. Ive seen quality club cricketers smash 150 with G3 bats that they borrowed and mugs like me cleaned up while holding a £180 bat. At my level I need all the help I can get which is why I will continue buying different bats.
-
You'd be surprise which piece of willow they pick out, we in general don't reserve light weight / big volume willow for "pro's". If it is available, it is available to all. The premium and selling point used to sell this willow is quotes like "Pro Willow", "Players willow" to distinguish it from the rest and re-iterates its rareness so there is clear reason to the customer why it is more expensive. They aren't generally obessed with pro willow, they dont come in and say I want pro willow they take look at all the piece there and ask for the bat makers opinion.
Whereas on the other hand club players and forums are a bit more obsessed as you can see! :D
If I'm honest most 1st class cricketers are more interested with handle shape and feel of the bat - For example, I've spent 1.5 hours shaping a handle for a players bat with him in the workshop testing it what felt like everytime I shaved a bit off
-
how would you describe the shape of this handle, must have been a work of art after 1.5 hours
-
Andy that is all well and good and thankyou for being the only batmaker to respond, but it doesn't answer my original question, rather the question the thread was hijacked with.
-
I'm not overly fussed with willow tend to ask the bat maker as they know alot more than me I am fussy with my handles though not as much getting some shaved off but changing grips numerous times till it feels right and changes with each bat
-
Andy
I have limited experiance with pro players picking there bats but the ones i have seen you hit the nail on the head they ask for handle shape and position and the only other thing they asked was for pick up....
My point on all this was the fact PRO Willow in my eye does not exist at all and it another way of people making money
One there was the heartwood fancy were former grade 3 wood was sought after and the prices were bump up accordingly
I think the same has happend here with so many claiming pro this pro that
All i am interested to be honest in a bat is weather it can hit me a ball for 4 or not so to speak and i can play every shot in the book with a bat..
-
how would you describe the shape of this handle, must have been a work of art after 1.5 hours
Thin oval bottom hand, slightly tapered to round for the top hand. He'd never used binding so I explained the gains from a good handle, with good binding and therefore the 1.5hr was a change from the norm.
Andy that is all well and good and thankyou for being the only batmaker to respond, but it doesn't answer my original question, rather the question the thread was hijacked with.
What was it! Might be one I wasnt going to answer ;-)
-
sorry Jon i think i may have hijacked it sorry treeman
-
Thin oval bottom had slightly tapered to round for the top hand. He'd never used binding so I explained the gains from a good handle, with good binding and therefore the 1.5 was a change from the norm.
What was it! Might be one I wasnt going to answer ;-)
Copied from P1:
Not wanting to derail, thought I'd start my own.
A comment made in his thread got me wondering about pros having bats made at a particular place. Let us imagine a scenario.
Pro player X is sponsored by Kookaburra/GN/GM (you get the point) but actually pays to have his bats made by Salix/H4L/SAF (you get the point). The bats are of course labelled up as the sponsor's product.
The small batmaker who is paid by the pro selects his best willow to go into the pro's bats. As desribed, low density, high performance, short life.
Pro gets some top bats and is happy.
Now, here's the thing. Assuming that the real identity of the batmaker is kept secret as part of the contract, so the batmaker cannot profit from using the name of the pro is his marketing, what does the batmaker get from the deal? How does it differ any more from you or I ordering a bat from him? Why is the batmaker so determined to keep his best wood for the pro when he benefits no more from it than a normal sale?
I must say it grinds with me a bit when I hear a batmaker saying he holds back his best for the pros. Is their money better than ours? Why should we not be given the option of the best materials?
Before someone points it out, I realise the situation is very different is the small batmaker does indeed sponsor the player. It makes more sense in that circumstance.
-
sorry Jon i think i may have hijacked it sorry treeman
Its ok as I said at the time, just looking for an answer to the question originally posed. :)
-
Firstly forget about this misconception of a short life. It may happen yes and it happens in "normal" willow but that is generally down to the processing, what is being sold and by whom.
Now, here's the thing. Assuming that the real identity of the batmaker is kept secret as part of the contract, so the batmaker cannot profit from using the name of the pro is his marketing, what does the batmaker get from the deal?
We get the pleasure of seeing something we've hand crafted on TV or in a 1st class game!
How does it differ any more from you or I ordering a bat from him? Why is the batmaker so determined to keep his best wood for the pro when he benefits no more from it than a normal sale?
I don't see my last reply, if it is available it is available to all people. Also please note they choose from a selection as well
I must say it grinds with me a bit when I hear a batmaker saying he holds back his best for the pros. Is their money better than ours? Why should we not be given the option of the best materials?
You do with me, it is about the availability of the product. When you asked me, I think it was you as well, I gave you an honest answer I don't have any decent looking lightweight clefts
Does that answer the question?
-
Yes mate I realise you do it differently from others, which I think is the way to do it to be honest. I have been told by other makers (not necessarily on the forum) that they reserve their best for high profile players. It was more of a generalised statement and you were the only one to answer despite seeing quite a few reading the thread.
This thread wasn't a result of our previous conversation, I appreciate your honesty and not trying to fob me of with something that you could have stood to make alot of money from. I'm happy to wait as I've said to both you and Pete.
My question was an innocent one, honestly trying to figure out a situation that didn't make sense to me. Thanks alot for bothering to answer. Again what I'm about to say doesn't apply to you because you don't differentiate from one buyer to the next, but I would still like one of those makers who do hold back their best stuff in the situation I originally described to give me a clue.
In the end you can do what you want and you're not answerable to anyone, I was just interested, thats all. If people choose not to answer, fine. I just can't see what the potentially big secret it.
-
... I have been told by other makers (not necessarily on the forum) that they reserve their best for high profile players...
Perhaps the best bats deserve to be used by the best players?
You OTOH ... ;)
-
Andy
I have limited experiance with pro players picking there bats but the ones i have seen you hit the nail on the head they ask for handle shape and position and the only other thing they asked was for pick up....
My point on all this was the fact PRO Willow in my eye does not exist at all and it another way of people making money
One there was the heartwood fancy were former grade 3 wood was sought after and the prices were bump up accordingly
I think the same has happend here with so many claiming pro this pro that
All i am interested to be honest in a bat is weather it can hit me a ball for 4 or not so to speak and i can play every shot in the book with a bat..
I see bat Number 1 to 6 available - I assume you asked the bat maker about this question and you are going to post a reply on this thread?
-
nope Andy iam not that close mate and he was is too busy to talk in depth with me....
What he did say was there is such a thing as pro willow in terms of performance but it is much sought after..
He said it more in the skill of a batmaker than the type of wood