Topic: ENG vs IND series (Read 170195 times)

billyb · « **Reply #1320 on:** February 26, 2021, 09:44:15 PM »

Quote from: SD on February 26, 2021, 08:00:16 PM

This image of 6 balls from the same over shows just just how impossible any sort of proper batting was. No criticism whatsoever of any batsman getting out on that

That must be what it is like facing me! Just on the next wicket over...

Absolute chaos!

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #1321 on:** February 26, 2021, 09:46:50 PM »

It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!

Mtown Don · « **Reply #1322 on:** February 26, 2021, 10:10:09 PM »

Quote from: Bats_Entertainment on February 26, 2021, 09:46:50 PM

It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!

Or, you know, one person has suggested selecting him rather than Lawrence, without detailing their rationale. Perhaps they are advocating it because he has more experience in top order positions - weren�t you complaining yourself about Lawrence being shoehorned in out of position at 3?

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #1323 on:** February 26, 2021, 10:32:40 PM »

Without detailing their rationale? Yes, that'll be the one. Probably without having seen said player too?

I don't mind Dan Lawrence batting at 3, but think that the more Ollie Pope should have been given the responsibility first. Bairstow will get another go in the next Test.

Mtown Don · « **Reply #1324 on:** February 26, 2021, 10:58:56 PM »

Quote from: Bats_Entertainment on February 26, 2021, 10:32:40 PM

Without detailing their rationale? Yes, that'll be the one. Probably without having seen said player too?

I don't mind Dan Lawrence batting at 3, but think that the more Ollie Pope should have been given the responsibility first. Bairstow will get another go in the next Test.

Ok, you�ve assumed that. I�m starting to get the vibe that you want people to scan in their county membership cards and post a detailed analysis of any player they want to suggest might play for England, just so you can throw it out with a one liner yourself. What is it that you actually want? A ban on people posting their proposed England teams? Or any new player to get a run of 10 Tests before anyone can comment on their suitability? Posters are going to do what the vast majority of cricket (and general sport) fans do and express their preferred team. They�re not claiming to be professional coaches or scouts or to have watched said players for years. I�m sure everyone gets by now that you don�t like that but I can�t help but feel that the forum would be more enjoyable without you reiterating it over and over again with no clear purpose!

edge · « **Reply #1325 on:** February 26, 2021, 11:24:26 PM »

Quote from: Bats_Entertainment on February 26, 2021, 09:46:50 PM

It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!

Given that Bracey is the only batsman in the tour party who's played more than the occasional county game batting at 3, it's hardly an outrageous suggestion that he could be given a go at this point... or would you rather noone paid attention to the county championship?

shadowlight · « **Reply #1326 on:** February 27, 2021, 01:53:01 AM »

Quote from: Mtown Don on February 26, 2021, 10:10:09 PM

Or, you know, one person has suggested selecting him rather than Lawrence, without detailing their rationale. Perhaps they are advocating it because he has more experience in top order positions - weren�t you complaining yourself about Lawrence being shoehorned in out of position at 3?

That would be me and my rationale is that Lawrence has been tried and has not worked well in India. Also, I think Bracey is used to playing in the top three, but it was pointed out that he is a lefty and might struggle like the rest of the lefty�s against Ashwin. I still think it�s worth rolling the dice.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1327 on:** February 27, 2021, 08:37:50 AM »

Quote from: alba caerulea on February 26, 2021, 01:22:34 PM

Stokes over the last 2 years is averaging around 50, i think and is in the top 10 for batting in the world rankings. So its fair to say his performances of late HAVE been world class. People wouldnt be wrong to say that.

Whether we sit down at the end of his career and say he was a world class Test batsman or a batsman capable of world class knocks is a different question. Would you suggest leaving Stokes out because he averages below 40?

What I don't understand is your constant whinging and moaning about the same subject over and over again. Maybe watch something else if the evolution of cricket offends you?

Can I ask a serious question - what were your emotions when Stokes played that knock at Headingley in the Ashes? For most the greatest knock ever seen by an Englishman.

Because guess what - without limited overs cricket that knock wouldn't have been possible and England would have lost. If you enjoyed that knock you are a massive hypocrite. And if you didn't you are the strangest cricket 'fan' ever to live

Stokes is totally different btw but

Remind me.. what did the world class Bairstow avg for 18-24 months? How's that turned out??

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1328 on:** February 27, 2021, 08:41:50 AM »

Quote from: six and out on February 26, 2021, 05:44:24 PM

It was interesting listening to the Wisden Podcast last night, they said that a lot of the Counties believe that the new 3 group system will encourage the Counties to play spinners and young players as there is less emphasis on promotion and relegation like the old CC, so less financial benefits at stake.

playing a few younger players etc doesn't solve the issue of quality and development at red ball formats. If your young players are groomed on white ball and produced to be 'multi-format' players (which we know means specialising in white ball with a hint of ability at red ball in reality). then, all the said issues will remain as you won't produce from Top level to bottom red ball specialists because the white ball game is now so vastly different, fewer and fewer can transition between then and actually be successful.

Duckett being an example.. never going to make a red ball player in a month of Sunday's but he's bred for white ball so they just tag him into red ball teams. Better of not playing him and breeding red ball specialist batsmen

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1329 on:** February 27, 2021, 08:45:15 AM »

Quote from: Mtown Don on February 26, 2021, 05:48:59 PM

This is just disingenuous. I lurk on this forum a fair bit and have never seen people denying that the Championship being pushed to each end of the season is a barrier to developing these traits. But once you�ve agreed that, what is the point of repeating it over and over? It�s not as though the ECB are going to be browsing the CustomBats forum for ideas on how to reinvent the domestic season. People naturally pick teams because that is something tangible that could be changed on the spot, I think it would be a bit boring if they spent the time discussing how many Championship games should be played in August over and over again.

Addressing the actual point, I�m sure that the domestic season is structured with the aim of achieving the best balance between commercial viability of the counties and player development, also bearing in mind the impact of switching between formats on the latter. I know that you don�t like the fact that first class cricket doesn�t attract the same revenue as limited overs but it is the reality and you can�t push the format which people pay to watch into the margins of the season where they won�t to further subsidise the format that they generally don�t. Yes it�s not the perfect solution for the Test team but the ECB compensates for this with Lions tours and camps which build experience and skill in the kinds of conditions that are difficult to replicate in England.

Ok, the end result is that England haven�t acquitted themselves perfectly in India but looking back eight years shows you that nobody else has either. None of the other nations have developed a spinner who has excelled in India (apart from Steve O�Keefe!). The system still creates batsmen such as Burns and Sibley who are equipped to bat for long periods of time, just not on raging turners in India on their first tours there (like pretty much every non-generational batting talent that has been there for years).

Apologies for the long rant - I�m really not a sycophantic England supporter and I don�t pretend that they get everything right, I just find the relentless negativity in the face of cold hard reality a little difficult to read over and over again.

England haven't been any good since the Ashes down under that no one talks about..

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1330 on:** February 27, 2021, 08:48:32 AM »

Quote from: ppccopener on February 26, 2021, 07:43:51 PM

Of course they have, but after the first test which.yes may of been a placid track but India lost, Kholi and Co threw the toys out and low and behold it's dust bombs for the next two matches.

The problem for us fans is .....we complain about e pitch and it's just because we lost. I'm actually glad Root has stopped short of mentioning the pitch, dead batting to those responsible.

We are away, we are going to get tracks that suit India. End of the day they have gone to extreames to do it.

Fair enough, we need to play spin better. Perhaps instead England should cut out some series and play in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan more often. I think the one day side has a tour to Pakistan coming up.

ah yes.. the white ball sides... that'll provide valuable experience .... on flat roads where they can hit through the line??? honestly, white ball games are played so differently from the way players play, bowl, format.. everything is different. playing a few white ball hit outs isn't going to train anyone in red ball stuff.

Let's not keep peddling that white ball in anyway helps red ball skills (other than odd times when out and out aggression is used)

Jimbo · « **Reply #1331 on:** February 27, 2021, 09:08:58 AM »

Hasn't Archer taken test wickets with his variations (slower ball, knuckle ball)? Pretty sure he didn't develop those playing red ball cricket.

Mtown Don · « **Reply #1332 on:** February 27, 2021, 09:16:16 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on February 27, 2021, 08:41:50 AM

playing a few younger players etc doesn't solve the issue of quality and development at red ball formats. If your young players are groomed on white ball and produced to be 'multi-format' players (which we know means specialising in white ball with a hint of ability at red ball in reality). then, all the said issues will remain as you won't produce from Top level to bottom red ball specialists because the white ball game is now so vastly different, fewer and fewer can transition between then and actually be successful.

Duckett being an example.. never going to make a red ball player in a month of Sunday's but he's bred for white ball so they just tag him into red ball teams. Better of not playing him and breeding red ball specialist batsmen

On the basis that no country has even attempted this, do you think that it might be impractical to implement? Even Pujara is now signed up for the IPL for goodness sake! Counties are not going to be able to employ two specialist squads and players in either would be unhappy that they�re being pigeonholed in one format and missing out on opportunities in the other. I suspect by doing this you would actually weaken the talent pool available for marginal gains elsewhere.

Sibley is a decent t20 player, do you honestly think that it affects his �red ball� game? Him, Burns, Root and Foakes are proper, experienced first class cricketers. Pope is a great prospect based on his record and the eye test. Stokes is what he is. Players will keep coming through who are more suited to first class cricket but fill in for their counties in limited overs, I really don�t think there is that much of an issue with it.

The Bairstow criticism I get fully but I think he has stayed around the team since 2013 through a combination/sequence of being a big prospect, a purple patch, being a keeping option, the mentality of the Bayliss era and that hundred in Sri Lanka. I don�t agree with it for the last few years but I think it�s coming to an end now anyway.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1333 on:** February 27, 2021, 09:31:42 AM »

Quote from: Mtown Don on February 27, 2021, 09:16:16 AM

On the basis that no country has even attempted this, do you think that it might be impractical to implement? Even Pujara is now signed up for the IPL for goodness sake! Counties are not going to be able to employ two specialist squads and players in either would be unhappy that they�re being pigeonholed in one format and missing out on opportunities in the other. I suspect by doing this you would actually weaken the talent pool available for marginal gains elsewhere.

Sibley is a decent t20 player, do you honestly think that it affects his �red ball� game? Him, Burns, Root and Foakes are proper, experienced first class cricketers. Pope is a great prospect based on his record and the eye test. Stokes is what he is. Players will keep coming through who are more suited to first class cricket but fill in for their counties in limited overs, I really don�t think there is that much of an issue with it.

The Bairstow criticism I get fully but I think he has stayed around the team since 2013 through a combination/sequence of being a big prospect, a purple patch, being a keeping option, the mentality of the Bayliss era and that hundred in Sri Lanka. I don�t agree with it for the last few years but I think it�s coming to an end now anyway.

Sibley - lets assess after 20 tests.. he seems to want to learn which is kudos to him but can't see him avg 40 plus (currently)
Burns - never looked like avg 40+ lets be honest
Root - one of the few who can multi format but again, he's no top order batter in red ball cricket. Multi format players (exception not rule) can play red ball, but generally in the middle order not top order (always the odd exception)
Foakes - Wk/Bat so slightly different rules apply but he's showing how vastly different it is compared to the more white ball of wk Bairstow/buttler

you only need 3-4 red ball specialists in a side.. top order bats, spinner, odd seamer.. not whole squads

all said and done

I'd stick with

Sibley
Burns
Crawley

for at least 12-18 months personally. give them the time to bed in or ultimately fail.

Root
Stokes
Pope

Again, consistent approach as above

Foakes
leech
Archer (unless he keeps bowling 135.. it's either 145+ or kick him out for Wood/Woakes/Broad)
Anderson/Broad (rotate the oldies)

1th players, change as you need for conditions

Kick Bairstow, buttler, curran into touch for good. Would rather they give chances to stone, bracey, Lawrence or A N Other players. We know the first 3 aren't really unto it. I would focus this group on red ball only as there are many white ball hitters like Morgan, roy, hales, Bairstow, Buttler etc who can focus then on white ball. pay them all well enough to mean they don't need to bother with the other formats or IPL. I'm sure the fat cats at the eCB and counties can take a pay cut to fund .. you know.. actual cricket

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #1334 on:** February 27, 2021, 09:37:15 AM »

Quote from: edge on February 26, 2021, 11:24:26 PM

Given that Bracey is the only batsman in the tour party who's played more than the occasional county game batting at 3, it's hardly an outrageous suggestion that he could be given a go at this point... or would you rather noone paid attention to the county championship?

He's not actually in the squad that was picked to play in the Test series, is he? I think I'd like people to know a bit more than that they bat there for their county.

Jonny Bairstow has scored loads of runs for Yorkshire at no.3. In Division One.

Author Topic: ENG vs IND series (Read 170195 times)

billyb

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Mtown Don

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Bats_Entertainment

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Mtown Don

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edge

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shadowlight

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ProCricketer1982

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ProCricketer1982

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ProCricketer1982

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ProCricketer1982

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Jimbo

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Mtown Don

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ProCricketer1982

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Bats_Entertainment

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