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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: kaustav on January 10, 2012, 07:15:55 AM
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The series starts in a week's time. Both the teams look good; 2011 was a very good year for Pakistan as they won all the series they played while England too had a brilliant summer. The venue however is a 'neutral' one. So what are your thoughts on this series?
Who do you think has the upper hand? Will Pakistan continue its progress or will England prove to be just too strong?
Discuss :)
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Ajmal is the key.
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I think the series might be 1-1 with a draw in the middle more so because of the venue.
Ajmal: I love that guy and specially his interviews. He is a quality addition to world cricket in many ways.
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bit gutted bresnan is out :(
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Pakistan can and will hold their own against England in these conditions. Spin will play a big part and the Pakistanis are streets ahead. Would love to see Monty play a big part in this series.
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I expect England to win, though Pakistan will no doubt prove difficult opposition. I just think that England's bowling superiority will tell over the course of 3 tests.
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keep an eye out for no balls
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keep an eye out for no balls
:D
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So who do we think will get the nod over Bresnan? Personally, if we aren't going to go in with 2 spinners then I'd like to see Onions come back in. I can't see that playing Tremlett on these kind of pitches is going to do anyone any good....may as well give him a breather.
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Finn.
Auditioned in Bangladesh conditions and was England's best bowler in India on the ODI tour.
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So who do we think will get the nod over Bresnan? Personally, if we aren't going to go in with 2 spinners then I'd like to see Onions come back in. I can't see that playing Tremlett on these kind of pitches is going to do anyone any good....may as well give him a breather.
I wouldn't play Tremlett if Bresnan was fit but not sure you can call it giving him a breather - when was the last time he bowled?! 2 spinners has got to be the way forward over there, the position England are in I'd like them to continue trying to win matches rather than setting out not to lose and Monty bowled very well for Sussex last year
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I think they will play the side that just played the ICC lot + Prior.
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Finn.
Auditioned in Bangladesh conditions and was England's best bowler in India on the ODI tour.
Fair point, I totally forgot about him!
I wouldn't play Tremlett if Bresnan was fit but not sure you can call it giving him a breather - when was the last time he bowled?! 2 spinners has got to be the way forward over there, the position England are in I'd like them to continue trying to win matches rather than setting out not to lose and Monty bowled very well for Sussex last year
I agree that 2 spinners is probably the way to go but I am unconvinced whether England (who are notoriously defensive) will think the same way. I didn't mean, give Tremlett a breather because he's tired, rather give him a breather, as slogging in on unresponsive wickets with no pace or bounce is just going to put miles on his body with little reward. We have such a wealth of seam bowling talent that it seems a bit daft to 'wear out' a bowler like Tremlett in conditions he's never going to prosper in when we have guys like Onions who's natural length may well suit the pitches better...Tremlett, in helpful conditions, would be first on my teamsheet....
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The way finn bowled in India makes me think he should be the one to come in for Besnan
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I agree that 2 spinners is probably the way to go but I am unconvinced whether England (who are notoriously defensive) will think the same way. I didn't mean, give Tremlett a breather because he's tired, rather give him a breather, as slogging in on unresponsive wickets with no pace or bounce is just going to put miles on his body with little reward. We have such a wealth of seam bowling talent that it seems a bit daft to 'wear out' a bowler like Tremlett in conditions he's never going to prosper in when we have guys like Onions who's natural length may well suit the pitches better...Tremlett, in helpful conditions, would be first on my teamsheet....
Completely agree with what you say here. Anywhere outside of Asia Tremlett should get the new ball every day of the week! Finn and Bresnan both bowled well against Bangladesh if memory serves me but i'm also a big fan of Onions if theres some help off the seam for him, whoever comes in it won't be easy as they're likely to encounter the dullest pitches they've played on for a long while, could be a runfest!
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Personally would love to see the brave option of five bowlers but without Bresnan that is even less likely than it was already - and it was very unlikely then given Strauss' comments in his Ashes Diary to the effect that he never saw the point of a fifth bowler unless they were a genuine all rounder.
So Tremlett, Finn or Onions...I'd be inclined to say Tremlett - two reasons being that he is naturally intimidating enough that he'll still get the Pakistani batsmen on the back foot both literally and figuratively, and that he is considerably more consistant than Finn at this stage in his career, meaning that he will not exist as a release valve for the pressure created by the other bowlers.
Personally, I'm not convinced that this will be a run fest at all - England's structure has always been to build pressure on the batsman and to try and get wickets by way of poor shotmaking etc, and I don't think that this is likely to change too much regardless of conditions.
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Do you not think that Tremlett's natural length will just sit up and get smashed on these pitches?
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I think Finn will play ahead of Tremlett as Finn has been playing more than Tremlett and was our best bowler in the Indian ODI's. In Fact Tremlett has been out injured for a while.
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It will be definitely Finn who will play since Bresan left.
Bresan was also one who could reverse the ball and was quite handy batsman lower down the order.
Big loss for England
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My Side would be this -
Cook
Strauss
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn
Panesar
To me that batting line-up still looks very strong, and should Broad be needed its a great chance for him to further himself more with the bat and become a genuine all-rounder
Quite excited about these matches. You never know what you're going to get with Pakistan - could be woeful, could be amazing, makes great tv!
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Tremlett and Swann both face late fitness tests so Strauss and Co. might be forced into a decision anyway. They've gotta play 5 bowlers, Pakistan are blessed to have 3/4 better than part time spinners.
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I'd like this Pakistan line up;
1. Mohammad Hafeez
2. Taufeeq Umar
3. Azhar Ali
4. Younus Khan
5. Misbah Ul Haq
6. Umar Akmal
7. Adnan Akmal
8. Wahab Riaz
9. Umar Gul
10. Junaid Khan
11. Saeed Ajmal
It will be a toss between Wahab Riaz and Aizaz Cheema.
Mohammad Hafeez has turned out to be impressive bowler his spin bowling is a great addition.
English line up is quite strong and there middle order is also very good against spin bowling.
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I think Tremlett is a much better bowler than the one trick pont of four years ago and will be bright enough to adjust his length accordingly - having said that, even on lower bouncing decks I think his length is still one that would be difficult for the Pakistani batsman to get on top of comfortably, especially until they're very well set.
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If I'm not wrong doesn't Tremlett get that 'extra' bounce off the seam/pitch? If he does that is danger for Pakistani batsmans
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I'd like this Pakistan line up;
1. Mohammad Hafeez
2. Taufeeq Umar
3. Azhar Ali
4. Younus Khan
5. Misbah Ul Haq
6. Umar Akmal
7. Adnan Akmal
8. Wahab Riaz
9. Umar Gul
10. Junaid Khan
11. Saeed Ajmal
It will be a toss between Wahab Riaz and Aizaz Cheema.
Mohammad Hafeez has turned out to be impressive bowler his spin bowling is a great addition.
English line up is quite strong and there middle order is also very good against spin bowling.
Pakistan certainly have some potency in the bowling stakes with all 3 seamers able to use reverse swing well. Ajmal v Swann will be a great battle also
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If I'm not wrong doesn't Tremlett get that 'extra' bounce off the seam/pitch? If he does that is danger for Pakistani batsmans
well, on anything but the ultimate puddings, Tremlett delivering the ball from 11 feet up is going to create a substantially different trajectory from even Finn's nine foot odd. There will always be different opinions on such things...
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If he can adjust his length he will still be dangerous but anything slightly short coming from that height on these pitches will be fodder, be interesting to see if they pick him or Finn
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True to all three posts above :)
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well, on anything but the ultimate puddings, Tremlett delivering the ball from 11 feet up is going to create a substantially different trajectory from even Finn's nine foot odd. There will always be different opinions on such things...
I don't reckon Tremlett's height plus arm length is going to be 2 foot bigger than Finn's somehow or were you exaggerating a little bit lol :-[
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I don't reckon Tremlett's height plus arm length is going to be 2 foot bigger than Finn's somehow or were you exaggerating a little bit lol :-[
Nope - they did this using Hawkeye on Sky Sports a year or so ago - Tremlett is a couple of inches taller and longer limbed, but also delivers from a more upright position so the effective difference in point of delivery is something like 19 or 20 inches.
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England start as favourites for me. Batting is strong for England, with Pak only slighly ahead in the bowling dept. imo.
Fielding . .no contest.
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England start as favourites for me. Batting is strong for England, with Pak only slighly ahead in the bowling dept. imo.
Fielding . .no contest.
Pakistan AHEAD in the bowling department? Really? Ajmal will be dangerous but Wahab "No Balls" Riaz, Umar "Okay for One Dayers" Gul and Co? Not convinced...
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Pakistan AHEAD in the bowling department? Really? Ajmal will be dangerous but Wahab "No Balls" Riaz, Umar "Okay for One Dayers" Gul and Co? Not convinced...
Its hard to judge really as its been so long since England played in these type of conditions, can anyone remember how Anderson fared the last time they did? And wasn't that against Bangladesh? Riaz is inconsistent but Gul is a wicket-taker in all forms of cricket in my opinion
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Gul hasn;t taken significant test wickets against significant opposition for a while now, though I guess they've played so little cricket that it is hard to tell what that really means.
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England start as favourites for me. Batting is strong for England, with Pak only slighly ahead in the bowling dept. imo.
Fielding . .no contest.
The world rankings would tend to disagree. England have 3 of the top 4 bowlers in the world in Test cricket according to the rankings, and though the number 10 bowler has had to go home injured, Finn is a more than capable replacement. England have a much stronger bowling attack than Pakistan, though Pakistan have some useful spinners to supplement the impressive Ajmal.
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Well Pak slightly ahead in spin bowling dept. the conditions are going to be dusty turning tracks I suspect. The quickies will come into it for the first 25 overs and then over to the spinners. The quickies are already blunted out IMO. I would put Pak ahead in the reverse swing dept. too. Gul is a class act.
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I predict it as a draw series with teams winning one match a piece and the third one a tame draw.
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Pak have hardly played any test cricket in recent times a couple against Ban and SL. Hence rankings? I don't think Bresnan is worthy of being called a top ten bowler in the world just yet. He wouldnt even appear on my list.
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Bresnan is a quality bowler and will be a miss, but England have a very well-balanced attack, and I expect them to be able to take wickets. The pitches won't be dust bowls - they never are in the UAE. In fact, spinners average slightly worse in the UAE than they do in England. Wickets will be tough to come by for bowlers of all types and England play the squeeze game better than anybody in world cricket. They should be able to build enough pressure to take wickets - can Pakistan stay disciplined enough to do the same?
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Well Pak slightly ahead in spin bowling dept. the conditions are going to be dusty turning tracks I suspect. The quickies will come into it for the first 25 overs and then over to the spinners. The quickies are already blunted out IMO. I would put Pak ahead in the reverse swing dept. too. Gul is a class act.
Gul is a fine exponent of reverse swing, but Jimmy Anderson is the best in the world currently as a swing bowler, Swann is the top rated spin bowler in the world currently and Broad, Finn, Tremlett are all serious talents. I think our batting and bowling is stronger than Pakistan's - but I think that Misbah has been an insprational leader and Pak will raise their game.
Eng will win at least two of the tests for me.
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Pakistan are going to be alot tougher opponents than we all think. Ajmal is quality, Hafeez is more than useful, Umar Gul is always a threat and there batting line up is decent, I predict a drawn series.
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Pak have hardly played any test cricket in recent times a couple against Ban and SL. Hence rankings? I don't think Bresnan is worthy of being called a top ten bowler in the world just yet. He wouldnt even appear on my list.
I would have said the same thing until the last Ashes series. He's a very underrated player is Bresnan and bearing in mind that with a few notable exceptions fast bowling around the world is at a fairly low ebb and has been for a number of years he's got to be up there......maybe if the likes of Akhtar, Lee, McGrath etc were still around he wouldn't figure but only really Steyn and Morkel spring to mind as real, class, fast bowlers (other than the England boys) so top 10 is probably about right.
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Vernon Philander looks the real deal, and has looked much better than Morkel in all the games he has played.
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I predict an England series win due to their batting superiority. There isn't much in it as far as the bowling goes. But thats my feeling. England need to justify their number one ranking.
Win or lose I want to see some exciting cricket, a real scrap between the sides. At a time when test cricket crowds are in decline around the sub continent.
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Vernon Philander looks the real deal, and has looked much better than Morkel in all the games he has played.
Oops, forgot about him and maybe Southee but that might be pushing it a bit ;)
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A lot depends on how England will adapt to the pitches there. Here Pakistan will have a slight advantage as they recently played with Srilanka on the same venues and this will help them to field the right combination.
Fast bowlers will have a tough job, unless they make the old ball reverse. Swan will have to play an important role once the ball gets old.
Misbah is a kind of captain who goes for either Win or Draw. On these pitches, if one team goes on defensive and play the cards rightly, the game will more or less end up in a draw.
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Gul is a fine exponent of reverse swing, but Jimmy Anderson is the best in the world currently as a swing bowler, Swann is the top rated spin bowler in the world currently and Broad, Finn, Tremlett are all serious talents. I think our batting and bowling is stronger than Pakistan's - but I think that Misbah has been an insprational leader and Pak will raise their game.
Eng will win at least two of the tests for me.
To be honest, I haven't seen James Anderson do well in sub continent pitches.
No doubt he is a good swing bowler but his performance in sub continent aren't as great compared to his UK etc performances
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Gul hasn;t taken significant test wickets against significant opposition for a while now, though I guess they've played so little cricket that it is hard to tell what that really means.
Despite he didn't take many wickets recently but his bowling was quite good against Sri Lanka, as I said he didn't take wickets but he certainly caused problem for the batsmans.
Another to watch out is Junaid Khan I'd say. AFter his county stint in Sri Lanka series he was a different bowler altogether, when he made his debut he wasn't impressive but after his county stint he was impressive.
Wahab Riaz has been doing quite well in domestic cricket in Pakistan lately, he has good pace and can swing the ball both ways and with his pace and reverse swing he can indeed cause lot of problem for batsman.
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To be honest, I haven't seen James Anderson do well in sub continent pitches.
No doubt he is a good swing bowler but his performance in sub continent aren't as great compared to his UK etc performances
he certainly has really struggled in ODI's - so we will see if during the next 18 months he has what it takes - with tours against Pakistan, India and SL in the coming months...!!
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he certainly has really struggled in ODI's - so we will see if during the next 18 months he has what it takes - with tours against Pakistan, India and SL in the coming months...!!
Series against Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka would be real test for England's number 1 spot imho.
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Yes if they win all 3 of them and the series against SA this summer then they are undisputedly the Worlds no1 side
Really looking forward to watching this series, a real shame that its not able to be held in Pakistan
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Yes if they win all 3 of them and the series against SA this summer then they are undisputedly the Worlds no1 side
Really looking forward to watching this series, a real shame that its not able to be held in Pakistan
Indeed to everything you said mate.
I don't know I feel Board is not a good captain for Twenty20s IMHO.
I'd have Morgan or Pietersen (if he is in the side).
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Indeed to everything you said mate.
I don't know I feel Board is not a good captain for Twenty20s IMHO.
I'd have Morgan or Pietersen (if he is in the side).
It was a suprise to me when Broad was given the captaincy but there were not alot of candidates other than those you mention. Since he was given that he has behaved slightly better on the field and i've noticed far less moaning and poor body language towards umpires. Andy Flower may have hoped for this when he gave him the chance. He is also likely to be around in the Test side for the foreseeable future and any leadership experience will be a positive for England in the long run.
Pietersen is unlikely to captain any England side permanently again after what happened when he originally had the main job. Morgan may have been the only other real option and he is the VC so may get the chance after Broad. Bell would've been a candidate had his place in the side been secure i'm sure.
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It was a suprise to me when Broad was given the captaincy but there were not alot of candidates other than those you mention. Since he was given that he has behaved slightly better on the field and i've noticed far less moaning and poor body language towards umpires. Andy Flower may have hoped for this when he gave him the chance. He is also likely to be around in the Test side for the foreseeable future and any leadership experience will be a positive for England in the long run.
Pietersen is unlikely to captain any England side permanently again after what happened when he originally had the main job. Morgan may have been the only other real option and he is the VC so may get the chance after Broad. Bell would've been a candidate had his place in the side been secure i'm sure.
For test Strauss is a top man, would say he is even better than Cook to be honest.
I hope Board improves his body language and behaviour, I don't know whats up with him but he looks immature and idiot. You see Cook and then Board you say what is this? Cook is probably if not the nicest person in England's side, never ever seen him in any problem since he made his debut.I have high respect for that man.
I think Cook still has another 7-8 years in him (at least) as he is only 27! Strauss is 34 and he might play for another 2-3 years so after him I'd give Cooke captaincy. He is probably best man for the job, better than Bell too imho.
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I'm only talking about the 20/20 captaincy there mate, think the Test job is sorted for the next 6 or 7 years as you say
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much depends on Hafeez, Younis and Misbah. Hafeez must give them a start; if YK and Misbah can then grind down the English bowlers if will give Umar the opportunity to tee off. Otherwise, four out might be all out...
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I'm only talking about the 20/20 captaincy there mate, think the Test job is sorted for the next 6 or 7 years as you say
Oops my bad :(
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much depends on Hafeez, Younis and Misbah. Hafeez must give them a start; if YK anh Misbah can then grind down the English bowlers if will give Umar the opportunity to tee off. Otherwise, four out might be all out...
This!
If Hafeez gives a good start with both bat and ball then it would be very beneficial for Pakistan. Hafeez I'd say is trump card for Pakistan as a lot depends on him.
In batting if Hafeez and Taufeeq make solid partnership then as you said it will make job easier for other peeps
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Taufeeq won't average 20.
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Taufeeq won't average 20.
LOL
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Tafeeq had problems against the Bangladesh part time spinners, Swann will make him look stupid.
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Broad will get him no problem.
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I don't rate Taufeeq at all.
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this could be a very dull series.
If Cook and Trott bat for 300 balls each, how many runs do you think they'd get?
Ditto YK and Misbah.
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I think the UAE pitch might spoil the series to a great extent.
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I think the UAE pitch might spoil the series to a great extent.
Does anyone have first-hand experience of the pitches over there? Or has anyone watched a decent amount on tv?
I imagine them to be similar to what you get in Bangladesh, very slow with very little help for the seamer, but I can't actually recall watching a match thats been played there?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/16341645.stm
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this could be a very dull series.
If Cook and Trott bat for 300 balls each, how many runs do you think they'd get?
Ditto YK and Misbah.
And Azhar Ali, his first test hundred was slow.......very slow lol
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Having watched a lot of cricket at Sharjah, I expect this pitch to be similar; good for batting, a bit slow and low, with some aid to the spinners but that's about it. Might be a hard work for all the bowlers. The spinners need to play a crucial role for both the sides.
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Gonna be f**k boring lets be honest!
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And Azhar Ali, his first test hundred was slow.......very slow lol
I may be overly confident, but he looks more of a 30 off 100 balls player against good Test teams.
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I may be overly confident, but he looks more of a 30 off 100 balls player against good Test teams.
That's brave I think it took him a session to get through the nineties :D
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Ha :D
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I may be overly confident, but he looks more of a 30 off 100 balls player against good Test teams.
Won't say good test teams but against all to be honest!
He plays extremely slow his career strike rate is 39.46!
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I am very interested to see some of the new bowling guns of Pakistan; have not been following their cricket for some time.
@CD: apart from Gul who do you think is the most talented fast bowler in the new bunch?
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Does anyone have first-hand experience of the pitches over there? Or has anyone watched a decent amount on tv?
I imagine them to be similar to what you get in Bangladesh, very slow with very little help for the seamer, but I can't actually recall watching a match thats been played there?
I have nearly watched all of recent matches and to be honest the ICC curator did a amazing job on the pitch it was not a totally dead track there was everything for everyone. It was certainly not a lifeless track.
It was good sporting track
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I am very interested to see some of the new bowling guns of Pakistan; have not been following their cricket for some time.
@CD: apart from Gul who do you think is the most talented fast bowler in the new bunch?
Junaid Khan as I previously mentioned has improved significantly since his County Stint.
Wahab Riaz does have a shoddy image but mind you he is very talented bowler too!
Aizaz Cheema is old (32) but he is quite hardworking bowler.
So overall all are good bowlers but apart from Gul no one has played against England expect Wahab in two matches where he took a fifer in his dubt first innings against England
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Cool. Who is the fastest among them? I think world cricket is craving for another Wasim/Waqar from your neck of the woods. Just need to make sure they get injured before they play India though....lol
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Cheema has a wonderful haircut.
A real bowl on top of a bowler.
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Cool. Who is the fastest among them? I think world cricket is craving for another Wasim/Waqar from your neck of the woods. Just need to make sure they get injured before they play India though....lol
I would say Wahab Riaz, recently he has been clocking close to 150s apparently.
Cheema is fast too!
Wahab/Junaid have potential but it is upto them to become like Wasim/Waqar and in order to become like that one needs to do a lot a lot of hardwork.
I was watching Sharjah match last night which was played in 1985/1986 and I think it was Maindad last ball six one and Wasim was a crap bowler then but he worked extremely hard.
Imran Khan was crap in his early days too but he worked like a dog and changed his action (took 6 years etc) and become worlds best bowler.
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Wasim always credits Imran for the transformations in him as a bowler; he has mentioned it at least 10-15 times while doing commentary during the Ind-Aus series. I think a guiding hand is required.
Ya--- the Indian supporters took a long time to forget the six..lol. The bowler was Chetan Sharma, who incidentally later on got a hat-trick (I think the first one ever in One Dayers).
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Wasim always credits Imran for the transformations in him as a bowler; he has mentioned it at least 10-15 times while doing commentary during the Ind-Aus series. I think a guiding hand is required.
Ya--- the Indian supporters took a long time to forget the six..lol. The bowler was Chetan Sharma, who incidentally later on got a hat-trick (I think the first one ever in One Dayers).
Oh yeah Imran Khan made Wasim Akram I'd say but credit goes to Wasim for putting the hard work mate :)
Guiding hand, seems like Indian bowlers are not taking Wasim seriously :D
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God I miss Wasim and Waqar, batsman genuinely feared for there lives/toes with those two about
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God I miss Wasim and Waqar, batsman genuinely feared for there lives/toes with those two about
Batsmen around the world dont; they made the team so good in the 80s and 90s !!
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Monty on fire against PCB XI. 16 overs, 4 wickets, 26 runs at 1.69 an over
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Just e-mailed a mate to ask him if he could see a possibility of England playing 2 spinners. At the moment I don't see it happening - the injury to Bresnan probably scuppered that possibility. In Sri Lanka and in India later in the year we may well want to play both spinners - hopefully Bres will be fit enough to allow us to do so.
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I think that it is a foregone conclusion who they will pick.
In fairness to Monty he has bowled really well, and it is encouraging that England have a quality back-up. It would be strange if Swann pushed himself too much in the warm-up. He is potentially not 100% and no spinner worth their salt would show their full hand before the big stuff - see Warne in England in 1993.
On the other hand, Pakistan are notoriously suspect against quality left-arm spin, so Monty playing may not be the most surprising thing - if only England still had Colly's wobblers...
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Not suprised to see Monty bowling well. He was the best spinner in the Championship last year and has some history against Pakistan. Would love to see him play the first test but I don't think he will :(
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I think Cheema is a wonderful bowler i expect him to take a lot of wickets.
Junaid Khan im not so convinced by i think he lacks an extra dimension to his bowling.
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Looks like Monty wont be getting a game.
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what time does play start? Is it 6:30
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6.00 i think
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IMO the perfect start to a day off, waking up to live cricket :)
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I'm actually looking forward to getting up tomorrow!
Will be up at 545 I reckon
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How old is Younes Khan now? He looks about 60.
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36
He is one of the fittest guy around in international cricket
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hmm...
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Looks like England are going to stick to the 3 seamers 1 spinner formula, very disappointed :(
I've always been a huge admirer of Younis Kahns batting, i'm looking forward to getting up too Bruce!
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He got a triple century two years ago and a double recently so he seems fit enough. Mind you the Indian superstars seemed fit when batting but in the field looked village.
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Hoping England go with 2 spinners, they wont though
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Looks like England are going to stick to the 3 seamers 1 spinner formula, very disappointed :(
They will, but when the seamers tier and Pakistan frustrate England in their 2nd innings Monty will play in the next test.
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KP will get a fair bit of bowling I reckon....
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They will, but when the seamers tier and Pakistan frustrate England in their 2nd innings Monty will play in the next test.
You may well be right but what if Morgan gets a ton? Will they play 2 seamers, 2 spinners?
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Is Morgan playing? If he is Im looking forward to seeing how he might develop over the series.
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If it was in Pakistan/Sri Lanka it's a no brainer 2 spinners, I think they are reluctant due to the pitch/ground being newish and maybe it wont turn as much as many think it will. It'll probably turn square on the first day tho lol :)
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Looks like England are going to stick to the 3 seamers 1 spinner formula, very disappointed :(
You watch that blow up in their face - mental to go without 2 spinners unless they bat first and score tons.
I hope someone sees sense before the toss.
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I dont think it will turn that much tbh
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I can't wait for the series. Getting up for the second session. 6.00 in the morning is just a bit early for me!
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The batsmen will be on song in this one. 1-1 draw with around a ton of centuries in between.
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It won't turn much but Pakistan has a horrendous record against left arm spinners on any surface because we don't see a lot of them in the domestic circuit. Also the seamers will not find a lot of movement with the new ball.
I think and I might be wrong that whoever wins the toss England will bat first.
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He got a triple century two years ago and a double recently so he seems fit enough. Mind you the Indian superstars seemed fit when batting but in the field looked village.
See this mate;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbsbjm4PFc
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Abdur Rehman is left arm spinner so they have got quite a lot of practice now I'm sure.
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Abdul Rehman is a different kind of spinner to a Monty or a Vettori but his inclusion would have helped no doubt. There main issue is with a spinner who flights and turns from that angle and has the delivery which goes straight on. Abdul Rehman has the straighter one but he does not flight it much.
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See this mate;
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbsbjm4PFc[/url]
Very agile lol he'll play til he's 40 by the looks of it :)
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Abdur Rehman is left arm spinner so they have got quite a lot of practice now I'm sure.
Last Test the Pak team played Shakib and his left arm filth got 7 wickets...
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/538073.html
& Herath was SL's second best bowler
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=6842;team=8;type=series
And look at Ray Price's figures here:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=6842;team=8;type=series
you can't deny Pak treat slow left arm like hand grenades
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Shakibs a decent bowler! The bowlers you mention are all the leading spinners in their sides so will bowl lots of overs in asian conditions. These things can sometimes be exaggerated. I can assure you that if the left-arm spinner who plays for my 2nd team rocked up against Pakistan he'd have none for plenty!
Abdur Rehman is a very under-rated bowler and a great foil for Ajmal if he plays. If you consider the players that are currently unavailable to Pakistan for various reasons (including Danish Kaneria who recently took his 1000th first class wicket!) there really is some talent in the Country. With the right direction theres no reason why they can't compete at the top of the test rankings.
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Great start for Pakistan. Ajmal gets Strauss with a good one!
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43-5 a bit of trouble
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43-5 a bit of trouble
back to the england we know and love
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Y'know when you blow all the air out of your lungs and it makes you lips wobble around? (looks great in slo-mo)
Yep, that's how I and those 5 blokes feel!
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Dont write England off.... Yet
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Dont write England off.... Yet
I agree, dont write off just yet, still first innings of the game.
Without swing at the moment, someone must get after Umar Gul, just for the fact i am not a fan of his :D
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I personally can't watch it anymore. Nothing to do with the actual cricket, I cannot stand the screeching Pankistani appeals anymore!
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Didn't recognise Cheema without the mushroom hair style!
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7 down now! Looking at 120ao
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Jerusalem followed by Elvis, gotta love the Barmy Army!!! :D
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Looking liek a msitake to not include Monty and swann...
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Hahaha.......Bob Willis "suggesting" that Ajmal is a chucker! :D
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I havent actually seen the tea break show but that new round-arm tripe delivery is certainly a throw and his normal action is at best questionable
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The suggestion is that his doosra is a throw, which, based on the replays, it is, but as to whether it's a 'more than 15 degrees' chuck is arguable...
Willis reckons that England should start teaching their young spinners to chuck it as well if everyone else is doing it....
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Wouldn't be surprised if Flower has a "quiet word" with the Umpires. Can't see a complaint coming but certainly some slow-mo by the ICC officials. That said, he's been playing a fair amount of test cricket recently and it should've been picked up.
I'm sure Sky will do their best if the ICC don't.
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And here it comes, English Players and Media have already started to cry?!
Oh com'on!! Man up and face the challenges, rather than taking cheap punts!
Good luck and enjoy the series!
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Wasim and Waqar were ball tamperer's until everyone else cottoned on to reverse swing.
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Not sure that any of the players have said anything have they?
Its not a cheap punt anyway, its there for all to see. As noted by Mr Mcgrew it is very hard to judge whether the 15 degrees is exceeded with the naked eye but even you Cover_Drive surely can't deny that there is a pronounced kink in Ajmals action. The fact that it is nigh on impossible to bowl a doosra without kinking your elbow is a give-away (unless you have extraordinary fingers, which being a relatively short man Ajmal is unlikely to have)
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Cover_Drive - have you seen his action (and I have not)?
Sky love a story and to discredit a successful bowler is right up their street.
It will be intersting to see how we bowl on the pitch and whether we should have played 2 spinners. I think our batsmen have shown a significant lack of application
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Wasim and Waqar were ball tamperer's until everyone else cottoned on to reverse swing.
And when English players learned it then it became an "art"
Lol
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And here it comes, English Players and Media have already started to cry?!
Oh com'on!! Man up and face the challenges, rather than taking cheap punts!
Good luck and enjoy the series!
Agree play what's in front of you, if ICC deem his action legit then get on with it.
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Not sure that any of the players have said anything have they?
Its not a cheap punt anyway, its there for all to see. As noted by Mr Mcgrew it is very hard to judge whether the 15 degrees is exceeded with the naked eye but even you Cover_Drive surely can't deny that there is a pronounced kink in Ajmals action. The fact that it is nigh on impossible to bowl a doosra without kinking your elbow is a give-away (unless you have extraordinary fingers, which being a relatively short man Ajmal is unlikely to have)
Buzz, I have been watching his action ever since he made his debut against India in Asia Cup back in 2008 :).
Alba mate, there is a kink and it is within the laws, he has already been checked by ICC for action and his arm was around 13 degrees.
I'm sure ICC knows and is closely watching him than all of us here
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I will ask Saqlain Musthtaq the next time i see. The pioneer of the doosra.
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y is the ground so empty? :S
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This game is far from over . . .there is a long way to go and i think the Pak batting line up is fragile.
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Alba mate, there is a kink and it is within the laws, he has already been checked by ICC for action and his arm was around 13 degrees.
I'm sure ICC knows and is closely watching him than all of us here
Very close to the mark then, and with the new delivery also being questionable - enough to begin a talking point on an online cricket forum?
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Jesus christ oh how i love Matt Prior!
And his action does look suspect at best.
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y is the ground so empty? :S
It is always like that, today it is better compared to previous series.
Plus its a working day in UAE.
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Very close to the mark then, and with the new delivery also being questionable - enough to begin a talking point on an online cricket forum?
Mate where are you watching cricket? Let me hear those questioning too! :D
Prior is one of the best English players who I have seen play under pressure, he has come to rescue quite a lot of times
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Wasim and Waqar were ball tamperer's until everyone else cottoned on to reverse swing.
When Waqar and Wasim reversed the old ball after 40-50 overs, the English considered it cheating.
When Jones and Flintoff reversed the newer ball after 15 overs (with the aid of some mints), the English considered it genius.
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It is always like that, today it is better compared to previous series.
Plus its a working day in UAE.
shocking lol they cant make much from ticket sales compared with
uk/aus etc
most games are near enough full
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It is always like that, today it is better compared to previous series.
Plus its a working day in UAE.
Flights not cheap from Pakistan I imagine?
Another reason to hate terrorist scumbags, not content with blowing people up they now take the atmospere out of Test cricket!
Mate where are you watching cricket? Let me hear those questioning too! :D
I don't quite understand what you're asking me there CD
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When Waqar and Wasim reversed the old ball after 40-50 overs, the English considered it cheating.
When Jones and Flintoff reversed the newer ball after 15 overs (with the aid of some mints), the English considered it genius.
ohhh the pain of defeat!! it is clearly still sore!!
just remember if Warne was captain, you would have won, so you can't blame the mint sucking!! Plus that is a myth that it makes a difference.
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This topic is bubbling up lovely!! Can it rival the Aus/India one???
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shocking lol they cant make much from ticket sales compared with
uk/aus etc
most games are near enough full
Sadly thats true mate, quite unfortunate. Only English and Australian test are full or nearly full.
Alba I meant channel, I'm watching on Ten Sports.
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This topic is bubbling up lovely!! Can it rival the Aus/India one???
My team might be doing horrendously but at least my threads are setting the world on fire :D
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Flights not cheap from Pakistan I imagine?
Another reason to hate terrorist scumbags, not content with blowing people up they now take the atmospere out of Test cricket!
There is lot of Pakistanis in UAE mate lot of them but most of them is labour while proper office job etc level is quite less compared to that.
For a middle class who watches the mathc for him its not very cheap to travel out to UAE from Pakistan
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!! WARNING !! this is a very misleading picture...
(http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac151/buzzrockport/Pakistans-Saeed-Ajmal-in--007.jpg)
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In 1992 when the whole reverse swing thing kicked off, the ball was removed at the lunch interval due to it's condition (according to third party observers). It has been kept under lock and key for nearly 20 years. England in 2005 were subject to regular inspections and apart from a "mint" (listen to yourself) nothing was wrong with the condition of the ball. Big difference.
Today, if he's bending the arm beyond the law then it needs to be looked at. The definition of chucking is a moving target and what players can get away with today isn't the same as 20 years ago. This 15 degrees is a crock, a few degrees is natural in most bowlers but 15? At 15 you should be clearly able to see the bend and most observers have by the sounds of it. Worst thing about it is youngsters copy. I had a word with one captain about a colt last season that was throwing his quicker ball, seeing high profile players "bend" the laws doesn't help.
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ohhh the pain of defeat!! it is clearly still sore!!
just remember if Warne was captain, you would have won, so you can't blame the mint sucking!! Plus that is a myth that it makes a difference.
Not the pain of defeat - we did annihilate that same English team 5-0 barely 16 months later, so revenge was served - it is the wonder of hypocrisy.
Botham, Lamb etc went to court such was their belief that reverse swing was the product of Pakistani cheating, as it was "impossible" in Ian Bothams words for an old ball to swing in reverse fashion unless some tampering had taken place.
The English cricket public agreed with him.
Fast forward 13 years and the ball is suddenly reversing after only fifteen overs - with the aid of mints as confirmed by Marcus Trescothick in his autobiography - and ofcourse this is all pure English artistic genius.
It is funny that since then, bowlers are able to reverse the old ball, but no-one, ever again has been able to reverse the the new ball after only 14-15 overs like Flintoff and Jones were able to do that one summer. Not even Jones himself who bowled gun-barrell straight in later days after the mints expose.
No need for Warne to be captain to win that series by the way. As long as McGrath remained upright, England would never have won even one test.
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reverse swing has been around since way before 1992
oh and Vic - that was tongue in cheak - and I don't remember this 2007 series you refer to
Umar Gul has reverse swung the ball within 15 overs in test, one day and 2020 matches.
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ok - largely my fault for the spurious deviation - let's keep this to Eng vs Pak and Pak's batting for the next 2.5 days, I think we can Aussie/Pom bash another time somewhere else
thanks
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Taufeeq Umar looks properly scared of Tremlett.
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I was watching on Sky Sports earlier, havent watched anything since the end of 2nd session though, i'm about to turn it back on to see England bowl! 9 wickets for spinners already on the 1st day hmmmmm where is Monty?!
Can I just say that I am far from anti-Pakistan as you will see by my previous posts and I love watching quality spinners bowl. I would say exactly the same if any country had a bowler with a similar action including England. As you say the ICC watches alot more cricket than me!
Lets not be dragged down a level, our views on cricket will always differ and thats why this forum is great! No need for us to get petty about it :)
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reverse swing has been around since way before 1992
oh and Vic - that was tongue in cheak - and I don't remember this 2007 series you refer to
Umar Gul has reverse swung the ball within 15 overs in test, one day and 2020 matches.
Of course Buzz...Allan Connolly was reverse swinging the ball in test cricket in the 1960's. Sarfraz was reversing it as early as 1972 and Imran soon after.
So it had been around for a while.
In Australia they used to say "The ball is going Irish" becaause the ball swung in the opposite direction to normal.
Connolly maintains that he discovered it purely by accident when he noticed that the older ball would on certain days swing in the opposite direction to what he intended.
I am sure that is how the Pakistani bowlers discovered it too - by accident.
In the hot dry conditions of the sub continent and Australia, the ball can reverse after 40-50 overs if sweat is imparted on the shiney side and the rough side is kept as dry as possible.
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Taufeeq Umar looks properly scared of Tremlett.
Before or after that blistering boundary down the ground?
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Played against Taufeeq Umar a few times, he didn't perform very well when he was Pro at Lancaster
http://carnforth.play-cricket.com/scoreboard/scorecard.asp?id=10616880
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Before or after that blistering boundary down the ground?
Haha that poster posted it before that shot.
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Played against Taufeeq Umar a few times, he didn't perform very well when he was Pro at Lancaster
[url]http://carnforth.play-cricket.com/scoreboard/scorecard.asp?id=10616880[/url]
Great strike rate there Tommy!
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Played against Taufeeq Umar a few times, he didn't perform very well when he was Pro at Lancaster
[url]http://carnforth.play-cricket.com/scoreboard/scorecard.asp?id=10616880[/url]
So Jamie Whincup kept wickets for you guys?
He certainly gets around!
http://www.jamiewhincup.com.au/
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http://carnforth.play-cricket.com/scoreboard/scorecard.asp?id=10614880
He did alright the week before. :D
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This is going to sound silly,,,,,,,,, but,,,,,,,, Swanns trousers! did he borrow them from Tremlet? Look like they are 5 inches to long, cut at the seams and now look like a pair of flares. Would have been better tucking them into a pair of black socks!!!
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Vic Marks is usually good value and today is no exception...
Saeed Ajmal lives the dream for Pakistan as England self-destruct
The mystery about Saeed Ajmal's day in Dubai was not his teesra but how England were caused such embarrassment on a surface as harmless as an empty pincushion
It is just as well that the ball is not turning much. Saeed Ajmal may have caused havoc if that were the case. The mischievous Pakistan spinner, whose Test career did not begin until he was 31, could scarcely believe his luck in the gentle sunshine of Dubai. Maybe the England batsmen had been suckered by all the talk of his teesra. But surely the top team in the world cannot be that naive?
Somehow, as if in a dream sequence of Ajmal's making, batsmen came and went, self-destructing to order. In his 18th Test he was causing as much havoc as the giants of the past. Neither Bishen Bedi, nor Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, nor Abdul Qadir, nor Muttiah Muralitharan, nor Shane Warne had caused England's best batsmen such embarrassment on a surface as harmless as an empty pincushion.
The ball neither turned, nor jumped. Occasionally it skidded a little disconcertingly. Frequently England batsmen struggled to pick up the length of the ball. Anything on target caused them to shudder. Sorry to disappoint those who relish a good tale but England were not undermined by Ajmal's teesra. (If he revealed this innovation, it is a round-arm sling designed to keep the ball low. Two such deliveries were gently patted away to midwicket without a problem).
No, England were undermined, not by the teesra, but by themselves and it was not so much a failure of technique, but of the mind. One of the problems when facing slow bowling is that there is time to think. So the brain comes into play as much as any instinctive hand/eye co-ordination.
And England batted brainlessly, making poor choices all along the way. Ajmal, bowling no rubbish, just sat back and waited for another batsman's error. In Test cricket on a true surface it is usually necessary to wait a bit longer.
Of the specialists only Ian Bell was truly defeated by the bowler. Batsmen from Don Bradman downwards have been vulnerable first ball, though Bell may not be quite so ruthlessly efficient as was the ultimate practitioner. On this occasion Bell was confronted with Ajmal's doosra straightaway. It was perfectly pitched; it barely turned away from the bat but held its line just enough to find the edge. This was a superb piece of bowling by someone who likes to bowl his doosra immediately to a fresh right-handed batsman, a preference worth putting in the dossier.
But the rest of England's batsmen made mistakes. Alastair Cook and Andrew Strauss misjudged the length of deliveries they were trying to attack. This was uncharacteristic of them, so much so that Strauss's last ball was deemed by some to be the dreaded teesra – but only after the England captain had missed it.
Kevin Pietersen's dismissal was the most disturbing. After 28 deliveries for two runs he missed a straight ball from Ajmal and was out leg before wicket on review. He was guilty of playing a premeditated shot, something coaches at any level discourage. But in this instance, when there was absolutely no backlift, it was a premeditated block, the last sort of shot Pietersen should be aiming to play.
Here Pietersen seemed to be setting himself to play an innings of Boycottian application. Bad thinking. Pietersen does not have the technique (look how far in front of his body his bat was against Ajmal: he seemed to be searching for the ball rather than watching it). A Boycott forward defensive was often a source of despair for a bowler; patently there was no way through. A Pietersen forward defensive cheers the bowler up.
Nor does Pietersen have the mind-set for a long defensive innings. It is not his way. This is not a summons for him to bat with total abandon. But he is much better when he seeks to impose himself on slow bowlers.
Neither Eoin Morgan, despite an impish start to his series, nor Stuart Broad hinted that they were thinking clearly either. The ball rarely bounces over the top of the stumps here, so sweeping straight deliveries carries a huge risk. Both sought reviews and on both occasions the ball was shown to be hitting the middle of middle stump. It is still allowed to hit down the ground in this game as Graeme Swann, the other recipient of a fine delivery in England's innings – from Abdur Rehman – briefly demonstrated.
Broad, for all his virtues, is a very poor judge of his own dismissals. There cannot be a batsman in the world whose success rate when asking for a review is so low. These statistics are not yet readily available but the impression is that Broad the batsman always seeks a review and is always out. When England are feeling a little more cheerful he may be tackled about this.
But it was Ajmal and his team that could rest happy at the close. From London there came murmurs about the validity of Ajmal's action, but that has become an occupational hazard for him whenever he takes wickets. In Dubai there were seven of them in a career best haul and this is before the surface starts to disintegrate.
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[url]http://carnforth.play-cricket.com/scoreboard/scorecard.asp?id=10614880[/url]
He did alright the week before. :D
Hahaha true, but an average of 27 for an international test player?!
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Hahaha true, but an average of 27 for an international test player?!
Very very true :)
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Ajmal's mystery makes him the best spinner in the world for. He even had Tendular in knots at the recently concluded World Cup.
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Ajmal's mystery makes him the best spinner in the world for. He even had Tendular in knots at the recently concluded World Cup.
Mystery spinners are goldust shame it took Pakistan until he was 31 to pick him.
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Once England's performance analysts get their heads together, I think England and many other Nations will play him a lot better.
It will be good to see if he can adapt and improve his game as players become used to his action and deliveries.
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Mystery spinners are goldust shame it took Pakistan until he was 31 to pick him.
Pakistan had others who were doing well at that time, first Saqlain then Danish
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Mistake to go into the game with one spinner but for all this talk of Ajmal, he didn't appear to do alot, from what I watched near enough every batsman got themselves out playing a poor shot. None of them with the exception of Prior looked like they were willing to grind it out.
Ajmals action is dodgy but if its been checked and Okayed by the ICC then no good complaining about it, got to find a way to play him thats not like a bunch of 2yr olds
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This sounds awfully like the last Ashes series:
England's batting in complete disarray in the first innings and then come the second innings they'll battle for a draw and be right in the series..
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Or indeed at Trent Bridge vs India. But surely, not twice in a year and a bit?
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So Jamie Whincup kept wickets for you guys?
He certainly gets around!
[url]http://www.jamiewhincup.com.au/[/url]
And jordan sparks kept for the opponents...must have been a cracker!
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Or indeed at Trent Bridge vs India. But surely, not twice in a year and a bit?
But these wickets are different. Will be hard to get Pakistan out cheaply although Pakistan are past masters of the Self Destruct!
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Hmm, although the Aussies made 400-odd at the Gabba.
Tomorrow and the day after are the key days. The others are just Prologues and Epilogues
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Not so much commentary on this game here today - the Pakistanis have a lead of just about 100 with 4 wickets left -may that three - excitement as two quick wickets have fallen!!
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Really good fightback today on a flat, dull, anti-cricket wicket! Amazing that this is the home of the ICC and yet they continue to produce the kind of pitches that will kill off test cricket for good....
It puts Englands batting performance in the first innings into perspective though....dreadful!
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Watched the highlights from day 1 and it wasn't very clever by englands batsman. I suspect you'll seem them play alot straighter second innings. Ajmal isn't a big spinner of the ball so they'll play the line a bit more and look for the doosra. Suspect the sweep might be put back in the locker unless it's way down leg. Prior has shown the way so I'd hope England will do better 2nd time around.
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I'll tell you what though - England were not great yesterday morning, but the fight from the tail and this bowling effort is the exact opposite mentality to foreign conditions that India, the previous No.1, have shown in UK & currently in Australia.
England have been disciplined and have done all they could on a pitch that will only start to breakup in about 30 years.
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England have been disciplined and have done all they could on a pitch that will only start to breakup in about 30 years.
Not going to help them in this game.
Maybe their kids can capitalize on the pitch's eventual demise.
Maybe the ground staff have used concrete to give the pitch such longevity?
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It is ammusing to see people commenting on a Day 2 pitch not breaking up. When it does break up i.e. in India people still complain.
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Game still in Pakistan's favor though England fought back well with some crucial wickets near the end of the day's play. If the lead goes beyond 150 somehow, Pakistan will be in a seriously strong position. However we should remember that they will be batting fourth. It all depends on how England bats in their second stint.
Where was Ajmal all these years??
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Game still in Pakistan's favor though England fought back well with some crucial wickets near the end of the day's play. If the lead goes beyond 150 somehow, Pakistan will be in a seriously strong position. However we should remember that they will be batting fourth. It all depends on how England bats in their second stint.
Where was Ajmal all these years??
He was there but there were other spinners who were doing exceptionally well such as Saqlain, Mushtaq and then Kaneria.
The year he was selected was his last year in domestic as he then had decided he will quit and start working as he got older. Back then he also used to go to England play club cricket and Misbah told him not to go in that year (2007/2008) and he was quite hesitant to Misbah's call but then he didn't go and was later drafted.
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Quite impressed with the spinners I must say though England made a mess of their own as well.
Hoping some new good fast bowlers will emerge from Pakistan quickly as the cricketing world is never complete with a few of them from Pakistan.
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Hoping some new good fast bowlers will emerge from Pakistan quickly as the cricketing world is never complete with a few of them from Pakistan.
Haha - There are quite a few in pipeline.
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batters have to much patiance in test matches..
if i got bowled 4 snorters in an over, id look at smashing him out of ground just to show him whos boss lol
but then again id be out lol
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I know what you mean not surprising when most league games are 40-50 overs
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Gotta love Athers and Nass giving a playing spin debrief, they work well together and are great mates.
Interesting that they were using Montys bat which was a massive GN Scoop
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all reports saying bowden is having a shocker as the third umpire. 2 DRS decisions go wrong. anyone seen them?
that will be the third poor decision in recent days with JP duminy's run out given by doctrove the other night
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I heard akmal got a poor one and was listening to the radio, blowers said, Arh it has clipped his pocket. apparently he was given out on a noise.
there is a chance Strauss was pulling a fast one...
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They do look very poor decisions but shouldnt the blame be shared with the 3rd Umpire as he relays the review down to Billy the onfield Umpire?
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Not going to help them in this game.
Maybe their kids can capitalize on the pitch's eventual demise.
Maybe the ground staff have used concrete to give the pitch such longevity?
That was my point - England will lose, but at least they've had a bloody good go.
A bit like the Gabba last year, it has taken them an initial innings to get their head around things.
The rest of your post is drivel.
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I heard akmal got a poor one and was listening to the radio, blowers said, Arh it has clipped his pocket. apparently he was given out on a noise.
there is a chance Strauss was pulling a fast one...
Strauss delayed his review too. this from a man who reviewed in SA a couple of winters ago when he'd hit the cover off it.
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They've both stayed with the on field umpires descision (bowdens). Ajmal's was inconclusive due to short leg obstructing the best angle for Hot Spot. There was a massive noise for strauss's dismissal but again no evidence from Hot Spot. You can't give them out without being certain or give them in so the onfield decision has to stay. Again too many grey areas for all concerned. Duminys was a genuine shocker.
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appauling batting by england atm. Mt Everest to climb now to save this one
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appauling batting by england atm. Mt Everest to climb now to save this one
They need some help from our Sherpa ;)
And also a few of his bats ..... :D
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straus nicked it!
nothing on hot spot but so wat..
there was defo a noise and it was defo ball on bat noise!
the noise is 100% the same time as the ball passes the bat and i think the way strauss looks behind him he knows hes nicked it
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boom nice one bell about time
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If Bell can't pick it, why doesn't he get forward and smother it.
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it just shows how poor our shot selection is. I think its time KP left the building. He just doesnt seem bothered. didnt score many in the warm ups as they were just warm up games so he wasnt fussed. Havent seen his shot to get out but ifs its anything like cricinfo says he should be getting a kicking from the management
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it just shows how poor our shot selection is. I think its time KP left the building. He just doesnt seem bothered. didnt score many in the warm ups as they were just warm up games so he wasnt fussed. Havent seen his shot to get out but ifs its anything like cricinfo says he should be getting a kicking from the management
It's exactly what you think it was, Brainless.
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There was a man in the deep and he tries to hook/pull. 2 wickets down and he chooses to play a risky shot on a wicket that gets easier to bat on once you've grafted. He's brain dead sometimes. He had no control over the shot.
Trott should tattoo "value your wicket" on his knuckles and then punch KP until it permanently goes in that thick skull of his.
Gul has bowled a superb spell though.
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Is it me or does Trott tap his bat really hard?
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Trott should tattoo "value your wicket" on his knuckles and then punch KP until it permanently goes in that thick skull of his.
Think thats the best piece of advice anybody can give. lol
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That was my point - England will lose, but at least they've had a bloody good go.
A bit like the Gabba last year, it has taken them an initial innings to get their head around things.
The rest of your post is drivel.
No mate, you need to HTFU.
I made a joke based on your post.
Re-read you initial post, and you may get the joke.
In the mean time, get a sense of humour.
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Trott and Prior fall in quick succession - looks like this test will have to be a write off for England then
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Trott and Prior fall in quick succession - looks like this test will have to be a write off for England then
indeed - their slow starts are going to catch up with them one day!
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And what do we learn from this? England still can't play a good spinner and Umar Gul...
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And what do we learn from this? England still can't play a good spinner and Umar Gul...
Hmmm, I think what we learn from this is that, as I've said previously, England's batting is not quite as solid as some people make out, especially when they don't have Bresnan at eight leading down to Swann at ten! Pietersen is definitely on the wane and Morgan is not the answer at six, so I reckon there are two slots up for grabs, whilst Strauss needs to hope that he starts scoring runs soon lest his position come under fire!
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And what do we learn from this? England still can't play a good spinner and Umar Gul...
And in order to stay and be regarded as number one, they need to win in alien conditions.
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Not the first time we've lost the first test of a series. England being tested is a good thing, makes us earn the title of No.1 test team in the WORLD!! not some good performances in favorable conditions. C'mon lads!!
#bouncebackability
;)
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I still think this will be a drawn series.
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And what do we learn from this? England still can't play a good spinner and Umar Gul...
I reckon Carl Hooper himself could have got a five-for with this performance!
How I yearn for the rubbish England teams of the past where every test was an assumed defeat and hopefully we got one plucky victory all summer that would make it all worthwhile ;)
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Odd that Ajmal has caused them such problems though - Flower's great strength as a batsman was his ability to play and read a spinner, yet he has not managed to convinced his own batsmen of the need not to bloody sweep on a slow low deck!
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The score in this game pleases me :D
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grains on broads bat look sweet
125-7
this batting is only exciting thing ive seen all day they are actually playing some shots lol
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we need the old school england plan bat today out and hope for rain hahaah
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The score in this game pleases me :D
Why is that?
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we need the old school england plan bat today out and hope for rain hahaah
id rather them just have the last hour trying to hit 6's and loose might as well.
then they get two days off! to chill out lol
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The score in this game pleases me :D
As bitter as a bluenose!
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id rather them just have the last hour trying to hit 6's and loose might as well.
counterattack is good - get a hundred ahead somehow and hope that the fix is in!
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Anyone noticed the Keeppers gear? In the 1st Innings he had beat up old drawn on gloves, Now he has shiny new Gloves, pads and boots! In 2 days thats good going!
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No mate, you need to HTFU.
I made a joke based on your post.
Re-read you initial post, and you may get the joke.
In the mean time, get a sense of humour.
Sorry, long night, no sleep.
It took a while for the Wildean wit to register.
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swan with switch hit lol
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grains on broads bat look sweet
125-7
this batting is only exciting thing ive seen all day they are actually playing some shots lol
I saw Broad's tweets showing his gear being packed for the tour. Their were about 8 pairs of bowling boots and 12, yes 12 bats. Not quite sure why he needs that many. One would do!
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I saw Broad's tweets showing his gear being packed for the tour. Their were about 8 pairs of bowling boots and 12, yes 12 bats. Not quite sure why he needs that many. One would do!
Probably Adidas getting rid of the surplus stock lol
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15 to win then...
any chance of us getting a little clatter going??
(What about Jimmy's sweep for 6 at the end there too!)
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I saw Broad's tweets showing his gear being packed for the tour. Their were about 8 pairs of bowling boots and 12, yes 12 bats. Not quite sure why he needs that many. One would do!
The way England have gone, he probably needs them, lol.
Chances are that England will come out all guns balzing next game though.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/19/bbc-test-match-special-ipad
!!
worth a read
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Sorry, long night, no sleep.
It took a while for the Wildean wit to register.
No worries mate...Oscar would be proud of your come back here! :)
I should have added some smilies to my posts to reflect that I was throwing a line with some (arguably questionable) wit. :)
Cheers mate.
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No worries mate...Oscar would be proud of your come back here! :)
I should have added some smilies to my posts to reflect that I was throwing a line with some (arguably questionable) wit. :)
Cheers mate.
No worries; remember, we're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. (sic)
:)
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Hey Guys
Would you guys make any changes for the second test ??
Many people had England down as favs are they going to come back and take the series 2-1
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Hey Guys
Would you guys make any changes for the second test ??
Many people had England down as favs are they going to come back and take the series 2-1
Bring Monty in, and no, 2-0 Pakistan.
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I'd be tempted by monty in for tremlett or Finn in for same as just don't think tremlett is going to get much out of these pitches but too much tinkering can be bad
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Forgot, bring Finn in for Tremlett. Finn was very effective in India and is a good, attacking bowler.
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People seem to be mentioning the bowlers but what about the batting failed twice getting dismissed under 200 ??
I still think the batters should get another go all this talk of Bopara??
What you guys thinking ??
Think Monty has to play if its a flat track because it would put too much pressure on the seamers although I think that Pakistan batting is fragile and could be a domino effect
As for Pak I would seriously bring in Umar Akmal for Asad Shafi think Umar Akmal is a class act and a match winner
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As for Pak I would seriously bring in Umar Akmal for Asad Shafi think Umar Akmal is a class act and a match winner
Most likely he will be coming in.
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There is an argument that Bopara and Panesar come in for Morgan and Tremlett - Eoin is not convincing anyway, and Ravi could share the third seamer burden with Trott for one game.
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People seem to be mentioning the bowlers but what about the batting failed twice getting dismissed under 200 ??
I still think the batters should get another go all this talk of Bopara??
People are mentioning the bowlers because there is no selection changes that can be done with the batting.
There is an argument that Bopara and Panesar come in for Morgan and Tremlett - Eoin is not convincing anyway, and Ravi could share the third seamer burden with Trott for one game.
That would be beneficial
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as a one off, yeah
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as a one off, yeah
Be difficult to drop Bopara if he scores a ton although have seen it happen before, and is he really a great player of spin didn't seem to have a clue against India in the ODIs last year ??
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Really do not rate Bopara at all, would much rather see someone like Steve Davies come in, although its never gonna happen I believe he's a more accomplished and more consistent batsman than Ravi.
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Can't see England panicking and making any changes. They have had one bad Test match, and will be given the opportunities to rectify the mistakes they made. This England side are pretty resilient and tend to bounce back pretty hard when they have a poor game. Fingers crossed they will do so again.
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Far too easy to start jumping on the band wagon and start lamenting the team that was selected. There have been so many rediculous statements flying about this week, Miandad for one claiming we haven't proven ourselves to be world number one, having just whitewashed the previous world number 1 side. I think the main problem with the match was how much Ajmal was bigged up and we froze against him and were not positive enough.
I'd stick with the same side and back them to bounce back in the second test. I doubt we can force a win again in the last one if the pitch is similar. 1-1 for me.
Real shame about losing Bresnan before the series as his addition may have allowed us to play the extra spinner.
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Far too easy to start jumping on the band wagon and start lamenting the team that was selected. There have been so many rediculous statements flying about this week, Miandad for one claiming we haven't proven ourselves to be world number one, having just whitewashed the previous world number 1 side.
Real shame about losing Bresnan before the series as his addition may have allowed us to play the extra spinner.
Many of us neutrals unfortunately would agree with Miandad; England's whitewash of India was good but nothing great. India got overhyped as number 1 and really did not deserve it as their overseas record the last few years had not been great. If England needs to cement the respect it thinks it deserves for being world number one, it needs to win overseas as well. I don' t think England has been that successful against strong sides overseas apart from a series in Australia and a win against New Zealand in 2008.
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A drawn series in SA is no mean feat too.
I think England fully deserve there world no. 1 tag... That's not to say they won't now crumble under the pressure of maintaining that status
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A drawn series in SA is no mean feat too.
I think England fully deserve there world no. 1 tag... That's not to say they won't now crumble under the pressure of maintaining that status
I am not saying they did not deserve it; unfortunately (or fortunately), world cricket really does not have a super dominating number 1 like we had come to expect from the Aussies or the WI in the past. The relentless Aussies would surely have had more of a swagger with a reason for their repeated dominance than the present English side. Trust me Johnny, if you beat Pakistan 2-1 and then beat India and Sri-lanka in their backyards, no-one will question the dominance of England.
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England have it all to prove now. Number one means winning all around the world. India were exposed as unable to win outside the subcontinent and now England will have to show that they can do it abroad and they will be tested within the next few months.
I cant see England winning the series but can see Pakistan taking great strength from the opening test and drawing the others. Pakistan have done some crazy and controversial stuff but they have a seriously good team with a point to prove!
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is he really a great player of spin didn't seem to have a clue against India in the ODIs last year ??
Bit unfair to say that considering the runs he scored over here.
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What would you people teams be for the second test? :)
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Bit unfair to say that considering the runs he scored over here.
So how come he is not the team now then ??
We are playing in the sub continent now not England ??
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Err.... U.A.E is not in the sub-continent.
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I reckon they will stick with the same side but I fear for Morgan's test future big time if he fails in the next test. Bopara has had a few chances but not i'm convinced, none of the guys coming through hav convinced me yet either so think when Bresnan comes back (hopefully soon) Prior can move up to six and we can play five bowlers.
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Err.... U.A.E is not in the sub-continent.
Sorry Mr Columbus but you know what i meant :)
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I think pitches in UAE are quite different to Sub Continent and the curator is ICCs not PCBs
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Sorry Mr Columbus but you know what i meant :)
Please do not call me by that mass murderer's name >:(
Jokes.... ;)
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I'd love to see ravi play and morgan out but don't think that's going to happen and if not Ravi I wouldn't Mind seeing James Taylor having a crack.
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I'd like to see Bresnan in for tremlett when hes available, but i think morgan should be kept in as he is a great player of spin, just think hes still settling in to the England side.
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How can people be calling for Morgan to be dropped 1 game in?! Bopara will be clueless against Ajmal, We're number 1 in the world for a reason. You dont get there purely by luck, Yes we've had home advantage but we've played good enough cricket to justify the test rankings. 2 games to go and im still backing us for the series win. I'd bring in Panesar for Tremlett, not on form, just because i feel we need to play 2 spinners.
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How can people be calling for Morgan to be dropped 1 game in?! Bopara will be clueless against Ajmal, We're number 1 in the world for a reason. You dont get there purely by luck, Yes we've had home advantage but we've played good enough cricket to justify the test rankings. 2 games to go and im still backing us for the series win. I'd bring in Panesar for Tremlett, not on form, just because i feel we need to play 2 spinners.
I don't think it's totally unjustified, but he is rightly under pressure. Look at his stats in the longer form of the game:
Batting and fielding averages
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 14 20 1 656 130 34.52 1192 55.03 2 3 74 4 11 0
First-class 67 109 13 3548 209* 36.95 6809 52.10 9 16 55 1
List A 151 142 21 4492 161 37.12 5332 84.24 7 28 51 0
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For me it was the manner in which England lost inside three days and paltry scores in both innings. did they take any positives out of the game?? They can come back i have no doubt, but it wont be easy against a resurgent team. I still say that Pakistan has a fragile batting line up, but their bowling is capable of keeping them in a game at all times.
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Tremlett's injured, so Finn will play, do quite well and Tremlett will never play another test.
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Onions is a better shout than Finn........pitch the ball up, nibble it about, bowl stump to stump. Job done!
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Yes, but Finn will still play
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Whoever bowls if similar to previous pitch needs to bowl more wicket to wicket & our bowlers too tall & bounced over.
However saying that bowlers did well, just batting didn't keep us in the game
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Yes, but Finn will still play
Not according to Cricinfo or the BBC he won't! Seems they think it's a toss up between Onions and Monty.....
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Will be interesting to see how the middle order(Pietersen, Bell and Morgan) play for the rest of the series. Bell wants to bat in the top 4 but needs to prove he deserves to, Pietersen has lived off his brilliant first few years of test cricket and now needs to prove he is still up to Test standard and Morgan wants to show that he is the right man for the test team. If one or more of them screw up there are plenty of young batsmen in the county game ready to take their place in the England middle order.
Now we have to wait and see.
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Finn has to play! 90+mph and hes a wicket taker surely what we need in baron, arid condtions
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Tremlett's injured, so Finn will play, do quite well and Tremlett will never play another test.
You could be right there unfortunately with tremlett!
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surprised there is not much chat on this topic today, especially with Monty making his return and Eng playing 2 spinners for the first time since 2003... Pak grinding their way along at 148-4 at the moment after 56 overs
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Probably to avoid the discussion that our batsman will get murdered by the spinners on this track!
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surprised there is not much chat on this topic today, especially with Monty making his return and Eng playing 2 spinners for the first time since 2003... Pak grinding their way along at 148-4 at the moment after 56 overs
Wanted to comment but I am still recuperating from Australia's 604/7 :(
Getting back to this one, I would say this was a HUGE toss to win for Pakistan. Monty is back fully!! :D
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i have neve seen trott bowl ever wtf lol
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i have neve seen trott bowl ever wtf lol
He's our all rounder now!!!
Misbah makes me laugh
Block..Block..Block..Huge Six..Huge Six..Block..Block..Block..zzz
:D
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i have neve seen trott bowl ever wtf lol
Bowled in the ODI series against Australia after the Ashes. Looked decent too.
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Eng playing 2 spinners for the first time since 2003...
Pretty sure Monty played with Swann in his last match, 1st test of 2009 Ashes, and in previous tests.
Shaun Udal & Monty also played on the India 2006 tour, as Monty dropped a clanger off Udal's bowling at mid-off.
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I stand corrected - I think I was getting confused with the 4 man attack concept... Pak have made a bit of a comeback now. 177-4 at tea
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50 up for young Shafiq, good solid innings from him. Pakistan 191-4
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He's our all rounder now!!!
Misbah makes me laugh
Block..Block..Block..Huge Six..Huge Six..Block..Block..Block..zzz
:D
That's why they call him "Tuk Tuk" LOL
I wonder if he takes his unused bats and is knocking them in the middle LOL
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Bowled in the ODI series against Australia after the Ashes. Looked decent too.
going back five years he played as a genuine all rounder for Warwickshire - pickde up seven for in one game and about 45 wickets ina first class season. Since then, lack of opportunities and a back injury have taken about 8-10mph off his stock ball and blunted his efficiency, but he was no mug...
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Again crowd response was poor and what makes it poorer was the fact that entry was absolutely free!
In UK Lords ticket is 100 Pounds and it is sold out and this being free is not even 10% full lol
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I think the key moment in this Test and Test series could be Anderson's drop catch of Misbah. If Anderson had taken that catch Pakistan could've been all out for 150. If Misbah can marshall the tail to get Pakistan's total to 300-350, it could be a matching winning position.
England need to nullify Ajmal.
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I think the key moment in this Test and Test series could be Anderson's drop catch of Misbah. If Anderson had taken that catch Pakistan could've been all out for 150. If Misbah can marshall the tail to get Pakistan's total to 300-350, it could be a matching winning position.
England need to nullify Ajmal.
Absolutely, Ajmal will be the key along the other spinners as there was turn in the pitch on Day 1 and generally in test matched turn increases as time goes on if Im not mistaken so Ajmal, Rehman and HAfeez all will be key for Pakistan.
If Pakistan get at least 300 Id say they are in good position.
See this picture guys;
http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/141700/141771.jpg
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was it a tough catch?
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was it a tough catch?
I don't think Anderson was fully concentrating. It was a sharp chance but he barely got a hand on it and he went with both hands.
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was it a tough catch?
Sharp chance but you would have expected Jimmy to take it really....
Can I just say that ground they are playing at is the least picturesque, ugliest, most hateful ground I have ever seen? For those who haven't seen it on tv yet, imagine a cricket ground in the Gaza strip....
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Wasnt a tough catch but it was one of those which Anderson never drops.
So from English perspective it was not a tough catch while from Pakistans perspective it was :D
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Sharp chance but you would have expected Jimmy to take it really....
Can I just say that ground they are playing at is the least picturesque, ugliest, most hateful ground I have ever seen? For those who haven't seen it on tv yet, imagine a cricket ground in the Gaza strip....
LOL I thought the ground was rather nice, a bit fancy lol
Each to its own I guess :)
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Hahaha! We obviously look for different things in a venue mate!
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Sharp chance but you would have expected Jimmy to take it really....
Can I just say that ground they are playing at is the least picturesque, ugliest, most hateful ground I have ever seen? For those who haven't seen it on tv yet, imagine a cricket ground in the Gaza strip....
In all fairness the UAE don't really play cricket and I guess these grounds are based on the hope of hosting matches with Pak vs Ind.
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Hahaha! We obviously look for different things in a venue mate!
Maybe you say that because of this;
http://p.imgci.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/141700/141771.jpg
HAha ;)
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Gotta also say England's fielding in this series hasn't been as good as it had been in recent years. 3 drops today. Monty dropped a c&b but bowled Hafeez next ball. Anderson dropped Misbah and Strauss dropped A Akmal.
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Maybe you say that because of this;
[url]http://p.imgci.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/141700/141771.jpg[/url]
HAha ;)
How dare they FORCE the barmy army into wearing clothes! It's intolerable! Political correctness gone mad! ;)
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Gotta also say England's fielding in this series hasn't been as good as it had been in recent years. 3 drops today. Monty dropped a c&b but bowled Hafeez next ball. Anderson dropped Misbah and Strauss dropped A Akmal.
Hafeez and Akmal werent biggie as England got them soon!
Monty has always been a crappy fielder no wonder he has Asian roots ahah
LOL Pedals!
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Hafeez and Akmal werent biggie as England got them soon!
Monty has always been a crappy fielder no wonder he has Asian roots ahah
LOL Pedals!
Agreed that two drops didn't cost much, but you just don't expect England to drop catches!
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If you look at Andersons drop the ball comes from behind Priors pads as it turns from middle-and-leggish. That said he should still have caught it - is Anderson really the best slip fielder England have or was he having a rest at slip?
As mentioned in this post, dropping Misbah could be a critical point in this match! Still not a bad day for England though, early wickets tomorrow and then bat for a couple of days - easy :D. A couple of batsmen really need runs in my opinion so will be interesting to see how they go!
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So who is ahead after day one??
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I think batting fourth innings on this pitch is gonna be a handful
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I reckon Pakistan will feel a bit down about closing 7 wickets down. I would put England ahead but it all depends on how they bat. If they bat as they can then 400+ is a possibility on this pitch, if they bat like they did in the last game then it's all over.... :(
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Definitely England ahead after day one. First session tomorrow will be the key to the test match. If Pakistan manage to add 50+ runs it will be hard for them to lose the match.
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Anyone else just realising how good Broad actually is?
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Defo England ahead.
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Anyone else just realising how good Broad actually is?
No 8)
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Those rose tinted glasses you're wearing there cd? ;)
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I think if Pakistan reaches 320-325 it will be a good score considering England will be batting last.
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Those rose tinted glasses you're wearing there cd? ;)
Yeah mate, it is true my RayBan's shade did get messed up and I can't see properly hahha
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So who is ahead after day one??
I think Pakistan are ahead. Another 50+ runs will put them in a commanding position.
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Wahey. That's wrapped things up nicely. Pakistan lose 3 wickets for 1 run in 4 overs on the 2nd morning.
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Wow what a morning from Englands bowlers
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And what an afternoon from Englands batters (so far, fingers crossed.)
I thought my mom had got it all wrong and got confused when i asked her what the score was when i woke up!
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Dammit..........Cook gone for 94. England still very much on top though... :D
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England dominating the whole day without any doubt, late two strikes by Ajmal were good
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Is it only me but Bells Kook range looks amazing!
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looks good but i really have a hate passion for kook lol all bats ive used were awfull lol
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looks good but i really have a hate passion for kook lol all bats ive used were awfull lol
Me too.......never used a good one!
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they must produce some good 1's ive just not had the plessure of seeing or using one
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they must produce some good 1's ive just not had the plessure of seeing or using one
Had my highest score with a £90 kook angry beast, i've had two Kooks that outperformed my old GM by a distance.
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good bowling but some poor bating. KP was looking to turn to leg. no benefit in doing it with short midwicket there. morgan just didnt pick the off spinner. plenty wide enough to let go if he had picked it. could be an interesting days play tomorrow
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Another good days cricket from the bits i've seen, so much more interesting than any limited overs stuff in my opinion
Woeful shot by Morgan, shouldn't be defending anything that wide, the doosra doesn't turn that much!
The stage is set for Broad to help bat England into a dominant position and push himself to the front of the MOM queue - get your money on it now ;)
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on Twitter...
ZaltzCricket:
Parts of the English media confused why Ajmal bowled 24.5 overs with a classically straight arm, then javelined in his last 5 overs.
+0000 26 Jan 13:19:33
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Not sure what to make of that Buzz but he definately chucked a quicker one down earlier in the day which was given as a front foot no-ball!
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on Twitter...
ZaltzCricket:
Parts of the English media confused why Ajmal bowled 24.5 overs with a classically straight arm, then javelined in his last 5 overs.
+0000 26 Jan 13:19:33
Maybe they will try to get a one doosra per over something similar to the bouncer rule...
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Unfortunately England's lost of 4 wickets in the final session proved that Anderson's drop was very crucial. Had Pakistan been rolled for 150, England would already be 50 ahead.
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Maybe they will try to get a one doosra per over something similar to the bouncer rule...
Too hard to prove as the bowler will make out its a topspinner etc
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Too hard to prove as the bowler will make out its a topspinner etc
Would be stupid if you ask me. It's like saying to a fast bowler only one outswinger per over.
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The thing that winds me up about this whole Ajmal doosra thing is the fact that he is perfectly capable of bowling with a straight arm. The only reason he bends his arm is to bowl his wrong 'un and as we saw today the more bent his arm gets the more the ball turns. I can't comment on whether he has, at any point, exceeded the 15 degree limit but the fact remains that he is doing it in order to gain an advantage.
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Maybe they will try to get a one doosra per over something similar to the bouncer rule...
I presume your joking ;) if not do you then limit out/in swingers? Get on with it and work hard in the nets to read spinners, Bell's flaws against good spinners has again resurfaced after his mauling by warne in the '05 ashes, Eng lost wickets at bad times but still have recognised batsmen to come in. Test Match cricket at its best.
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The thing that winds me up about this whole Ajmal doosra thing is the fact that he is perfectly capable of bowling with a straight arm. The only reason he bends his arm is to bowl his wrong 'un and as we saw today the more bent his arm gets the more the ball turns. I can't comment on whether he has, at any point, exceeded the 15 degree limit but the fact remains that he is doing it in order to gain an advantage.
Saeed Ajmal bowls with his elbow bent more than 15 degrees due to an elbow injury suffered as a child. His elbow can't straighten. It has a permanent 10-13 degrees bend in his arm.
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If that's the case how come his stock delivery is bowled with a straight arm?
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Bowling with a bent arm isn't illegal anyway, you can run in and bowl with your elbow fixed at 45% if you like! I wouldn't recomend it but its not against the rules!
The staightening of the arm is the illegal part.
Saeed Ajmal bowls with his elbow bent more than 15 degrees due to an elbow injury suffered as a child. His elbow can't straighten. It has a permanent 10-13 degrees bend in his arm.
What you mean here is that his elbow might not be able to rest on a plane with the rest of his arm, i.e; there will always be a slight bend in his elbow. If his elbow couldn't straighten atall he wouldn't be able to bowl full stop!
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Or pick his nose for that matter!
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If that's the case how come his stock delivery is bowled with a straight arm?
Well unless he has rebroken his elbow in the last 2 months, it's not possible. It was discussed prior to the Pakistan vs India world cup match. His long sleeved shirt makes the arm look straight/straighter than it actually is.
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Bowling with a bent arm isn't illegal anyway, you can run in and bowl with your elbow fixed at 45% if you like! I wouldn't recomend it but its not against the rules!
The staightening of the arm is the illegal part.
What you mean here is that his elbow might not be able to rest on a plane with the rest of his arm, i.e; there will always be a slight bend in his elbow. If his elbow couldn't straighten atall he wouldn't be able to bowl full stop!
He has a natural defect in his body. Nothing the ICC can do about barring breaking his arm...
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Point accepted, I wasn't disagreeing with you I was just clearing up your wording
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To be honest its getting quite tedious all this brouhaha about Ajmals action. where was the downright indignation about Ajmals doosra when he was taking wickets against the rest of the cricketing world? come on, this is nothing new, he has been bowling the doosra in tests, twenty20 and ODI games for a couple of years. where was this discussion then? Or is it just because he made some English batsmen look like novices, that this is been such an issue. would we have had this debate if he took 1-97 or if he still took 10-97 but
England went on to win the match? I think the headlines would have been somewhat different.
Lets not forget, he has been tested and cleared by the ICC. so until that changes everyone should give him his dues for been a fine bowler, bowling within the laws of the game. finally what i understand of the rule relating to chucking/throwing and 15 degrees pertains to 'the straightening of the bowlers arm.' all the pictures showing a bent arm are irrelevant as if his arm is bent and stays bent, its a legal delivery. however if its bent and then straightens more than the 15 degrees if a throw and a illegal delivery. remember when you throw a ball, you arm does not stay bent as you release it, your momentum starts to straighten your arm. its quite difficult to throw while keeping your arm bent, and if you do manage it the ball will not get that far.
Lets just be happy at what has been a intriguing and absorbing series so far, very close with both sides in the mix. Personally I find one sided test games to be a bit boring.
P.S. excuse the essay length of my post, just throwing in my two cents.
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just to confirm - he was tested by the ICC and they said "he can bowl the doosra with less than 15 degrees bend"
that is very different to being cleared.
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Buzz did he not play county last year? There might be a genuine issue but with all this crying wolf be it with bouncers in the 80s, reverse swing in the 90s and now the doosra it is easy to be skeptic.
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Buzz did he not play county last year? There might be a genuine issue but with all this crying wolf be it with bouncers in the 80s, reverse swing in the 90s and now the doosra it is easy to be skeptic.
Yes he did. However the standard in the championship and the pressure to perform is not the same as a test match.
Today it is apparent that he bowled for most of the day with no issue at all, but was nullified by Trott and Cook - then as the frustration set in he started to increase the "effort" in his action to get more purchase - and suddenly there was a clatter of wickets.
Now personally my view is that the batsmen should have been good enough to deal with it - these guys have scored runs against Murali so they shouldn't be whinging - but there are laws in cricket and the idea of the 15 degree bend is that is the limit when a slightly unusual action becomes a throw to the naked eye.
So two aspects - should he be allowed to cheat? (not saying he is) well no.
From a batting point of view - if you can see the chuck you know it will be the doosra - so I really don't understand why he is that difficult to pick.
Picking spinners is either done from the hand, by seeing the seam or off the pitch - the light is good enough for, at the very least, these guys to be able to pick the spin in the air if they can't read it from the hand.
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Yes he did. However the standard in the championship and the pressure to perform is not the same as a test match.
Today it is apparent that he bowled for most of the day with no issue at all, but was nullified by Trott and Cook - then as the frustration set in he started to increase the "effort" in his action to get more purchase - and suddenly there was a clatter of wickets.
Just a question. Did you see the game or are you basing it on that Tweet and media reports.
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watching highlights on the news and relatively reliable media reports. Twitter and the mail don't count.
I admit skynews is biased.
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/551041.html
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I agree with you buzz, on the fact that being allowed to bowl the doosra less than 15 degrees and being cleared are two different things however until such a time when a umpire or the ICC think he is exceeding the limit, we should not pass judgement. After all we can't say for certain that he is exceeding the 15, and to be honest if there was genuine and unreserved doubt over this then surely a batsman or a umpire would raise the issue. We all remember Darryl Hair and the Murali incident, he was repeatedly no balled for it.
As for Ajmal putting in more effort towards the end of the day, i watched all of the days play live and i didnt notice anything inherently different in his demeanour. nor did i think he was putting in extra amount effort. ajmal seems to be a very laid back character who rarely gets flustered. i think the wickets were due to the pitch allowing more purchase on the ball the day went on. At the start of England's innings the heavy roller was employed and i think it flattened out the dents in the pitch. So as the day went on it become much more friendly for the spinners. hence the wickets falling towards the end.
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I agree with you buzz, on the fact that being allowed to bowl the doosra less than 15 degrees and being cleared are two different things however until such a time when a umpire or the ICC think he is exceeding the limit, we should not pass judgement. After all we can't say for certain that he is exceeding the 15, and to be honest if there was genuine and unreserved doubt over this then surely a batsman or a umpire would raise the issue. We all remember Darryl Hair and the Murali incident, he was repeatedly no balled for it.
As for Ajmal putting in more effort towards the end of the day, i watched all of the days play live and i didnt notice anything inherently different in his demeanour. nor did i think he was putting in extra amount effort. ajmal seems to be a very laid back character who rarely gets flustered. i think the wickets were due to the pitch allowing more purchase on the ball the day went on. At the start of England's innings the heavy roller was employed and i think it flattened out the dents in the pitch. So as the day went on it become much more friendly for the spinners. hence the wickets falling towards the end.
By the sounds of it, a lot of players and officials have been raising doubts about Ajmal's action, behind closed doors at least. You're right though, none of us know for sure whether he is breaking the 15 degree rule but what we do know, without any doubt, is that he gains an advantage from straightening his arm from a bent position as the last few overs from todays play showed. He bowled practically the whole day with a straight arm and then in the last few overs his arm starts visibly straightening from bent and the ball starts turning, more than it has all day and with a ball that's 80 odd overs old...seems to me someone had a word with him about it, he tried to rein it in all day but as the adrenaline rose, he slipped back to his old ways.
I like Ajmal, he seems like a good guy but chucking is chucking whether its more or less than 15 degrees.
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I like Ajmal, he seems like a good guy but chucking is chucking whether its more or less than 15 degrees.
What is that supposed to mean? Without the rule how do you judge if someone is chucking. You know that this 15 degree rule was brought in because some of the top fast bowlers of the day were bending more than people thought.
You say a lot of players and officials have been raising doubt. Can you name some...
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By the sounds of it, a lot of players and officials have been raising doubts about Ajmal's action, behind closed doors at least. You're right though, none of us know for sure whether he is breaking the 15 degree rule but what we do know, without any doubt, is that he gains an advantage from straightening his arm from a bent position as the last few overs from todays play showed. He bowled practically the whole day with a straight arm and then in the last few overs his arm starts visibly straightening from bent and the ball starts turning, more than it has all day and with a ball that's 80 odd overs old...seems to me someone had a word with him about it, he tried to rein it in all day but as the adrenaline rose, he slipped back to his old ways.
Wow, I had never thought of it like that.
So England have not mastered playing Ajmal as some may have thought, but instead it was Ajmal who restrained himself from delivering his best.
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What is that supposed to mean? Without the rule how do you judge if someone is chucking. You know that this 15 degree rule was brought in because some of the top fast bowlers of the day were bending more than people thought.
You say a lot of players and officials have been raising doubt. Can you name some...
Read Cricinfo......specifically the quotes from Andy Flower, Jonathon Trott, Shane Warne, Terry Jenner, Stuart McGill and the others who attended the spin 'summit' in Australia a while back...they do not believe that doosra can be bowled without it being thrown.
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Read Cricinfo...
LOL... You said players and staff, not anything about media and pundits. England are hardly the first team to face Ajmal's doosra...
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Read my edit.......
Actually you only have to look at the ball that got Morgan out to see what I mean.....
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Amidst all this talk of Ajmal's chucking, wherever he may be, Mike Hussey must be chuckling after he managed to tear his bowling apart.
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The England players themselves played him beautifully in England a couple of years ago too.....the middle order at least seem to have forgotten what they were doing right...
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England just can't play spin in the sub-continent, and the pitch in UAE is effectively Pakistani-soil. We've seen it before with England's dismal performance against India in the ODI series. They just need to figure out a way to play it.
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Read Cricinfo......specifically the quotes from Andy Flower, Jonathon Trott, Shane Warne, Terry Jenner, Stuart McGill and the others who attended the spin 'summit' in Australia a while back...they do not believe that doosra can be bowled without it being thrown.
So its Andy Flower and Jonathan Trott and I read what they said. As for the spin summit it is a well known opinion on the doosra and not Ajmal. Regarding this opinion it carries weight because of the greats involved (none of them off-spinners). But when people say it can't be bowled with a non-dodgy/freak action I only have 2 words Saqlain Mushtaq...
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Now who's quoting a pundit and not a player or official? You've just taken what the writer of that article said (not a player or official) and used it as your own opinion!
Also, then, if it is a well known opinion that the doosra cannot be bowled legally then my comments can hardly be controversial or in fact cause you any confusion?
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In regards to picking Ajmal's doosra, it effectiveness is greatly improved by its disguise. He bowls with a scrambled seam so the traditional ways of reading it by the hand or the seam position are hindered considerably. That the main reason why he so difficult to pick is because he can bowl, both the doosra and his off break with the exact same action, so no one knows which way it was going to turn. Also his doosra doesn't turn a lot, just subtle movement the other way. especially in comparison to Murali and when it does turn too much it will miss the bat. so its not the amount of turn that gets wicket its not knowing when its coming.
Remember this ball was invented by Saqlain Mushtaq, and he had considerable success with it. but the problem he had was eventually he over-bowled this and most batsmen got used to it and generally picked it most of the time. they negated it and he was towards the end of his international career seen as a one trick pony. Ajmal uses the his ability to disguise to its maximum effect. There have been cases where certain bowlers were banned from bowling their doosra such as Harbhajan, Shohaib Malik and even Murali for a short period time. I know that Malik is still not allowed to bowl his as it illegal and more than 15 degrees. so if Ajmal is chucking why is still allowed to bowl it?
Bottom line, forget all the people who disagree and whether its chucking or not, until the ICC move to ban the doosra altogether, its a legal delivery. So just get on with it and play the ball.
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What a shame Ajmal is not English we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and could just carry on enjoying the game we all love ..... CRICKET without the politics !!!!!!!!
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What a shame Ajmal is not English we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and could just carry on enjoying the game we all love ..... CRICKET without the politics !!!!!!!!
I agree it's a bit embarrassing really, typical uk media tho Bob Willis is like a Grenade without a Pin, im shocked Sky let him near a Pakistan series after the controvesy from the last one.
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In regards to picking Ajmal's doosra, it effectiveness is greatly improved by its disguise. He bowls with a scrambled seam so the traditional ways of reading it by the hand or the seam position are hindered considerably. That the main reason why he so difficult to pick is because he can bowl, both the doosra and his off break with the exact same action, so no one knows which way it was going to turn. Also his doosra doesn't turn a lot, just subtle movement the other way. especially in comparison to Murali and when it does turn too much it will miss the bat. so its not the amount of turn that gets wicket its not knowing when its coming.
Remember this ball was invented by Saqlain Mushtaq, and he had considerable success with it. but the problem he had was eventually he over-bowled this and most batsmen got used to it and generally picked it most of the time. they negated it and he was towards the end of his international career seen as a one trick pony. Ajmal uses the his ability to disguise to its maximum effect. There have been cases where certain bowlers were banned from bowling their doosra such as Harbhajan, Shohaib Malik and even Murali for a short period time. I know that Malik is still not allowed to bowl his as it illegal and more than 15 degrees. so if Ajmal is chucking why is still allowed to bowl it?
Bottom line, forget all the people who disagree and whether its chucking or not, until the ICC move to ban the doosra altogether, its a legal delivery. So just get on with it and play the ball.
You're not quite right there. It would defy the laws of science to be able to bowl different deliveries with exactly the same action. There must be some variation that makes the ball spin in the opposite direction out of the hand. In Ajmals case it is his wrist and hand that turn further in a clockwise direction when he bowls his doosra, so that the batsman is looking at the back of his hand nearly when the ball is released. This action is made easier and emphasized if there is flexibility in the elbow (you can try it yourself sitting down with your arm horizontally in front of you).
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Now who's quoting a pundit and not a player or official? You've just taken what the writer of that article said (not a player or official) and used it as your own opinion!
Also, then, if it is a well known opinion that the doosra cannot be bowled legally then my comments can hardly be controversial or in fact cause you any confusion?
Which writer and which article? I have just read a compilation of Trott's and Flowers statements on another forum. For any Pakistani the Saqlain Mushtaq argument is a no-brainer. I am unaware if it was recently used by someone. You comments are regarding Ajmal's doosra and mocking the 15 degree rule.
England, to my knowledge, have not argued to ban the doosra and if they win this series eventually Ajmal will be forgotten as well...
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Monty has got the scoop out!!! Sweet!
Dammit.....that didn't last long.... :(
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Monty apparently using a Scoop! (Briefly!)
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At least he hit it ;) :D
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Things starting to happen now Younus gone!!
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Misbah gone come on monty!!!
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Surely Nasar has to be the most biased commentator out there. First he says "I'm not biased I just think it was out" then he says "just because there is doubt doesn't mean it has to go in favor of the batsmen, there is no rule to say it has to go in favor of the batsmen". Well if there is doubt and it's not 100% clear then surely it has to go in favor of the batsmen doesn't it.
I think it was out as well but there was some doubt in the 3rd umpires mind.
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Good day for England they are well ahead, if Pakistan makes anything over 250 then it would be good for them as chasing on day 4/5 wtih a spinning pitch won't be easy
But England certainly are front runner atm
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Wow, I had never thought of it like that.
So England have not mastered playing Ajmal as some may have thought, but instead it was Ajmal who restrained himself from delivering his best.
Or you could say he bowled normally with no success, so started cheating!
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Or you could say he bowled normally with no success, so started cheating!
Or more likely that after the focus was put so heavily on his bowling action after the first test (rightly or wrongly) he tried to keep his arm a lot straighter but as the adrenaline rose and the day wore on he reverted back to his more usual action...and hey presto the ball starts spitting off the pitch and wickets start to fall....
Just a theory of course...... ;)
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My theory is Ajmals's action will be forgotten if England win the series just as this recent report from Cricinfo:
"The growing quality of pitches in the UAE has contributed to two engrossing Tests. It was widely anticipated that this could be a tedious series on unresponsive pitches. Instead, there has been enough life for bowlers to relish an even contest."
after every one condemning these pitches initially. Or this from the same match report
"But the main benefits have come from the advent of DRS. Technology is rapidly making defensive pad play a thing of the past as umpires grant lbw decisions where once they would have looked askance. The game is different now: livelier, more combative and eminently more watchable. The downside is that lbw decisions are at an all-time high but with the future of Test cricket in such doubt, technology has provided a timely shot in the arm. "
which is certainly more upbeat about the impact of DRS than Bob Willis after Ajmal's five lbws in the first innings of the first test.
Of course this is all conjecture...
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Another great days cricket from what i've seen. England favorites but still hope for Pakistan should either of the 2 bats at the crease or Akmal produce something substantial. I wouldn't be confident of England chasing over 200 against the spin trio!
Did anyone bet on my tip of Broad for MOM? I didn't :( a couple of wickets in the morning and its his if England can win
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this game is over.
Pakistan will crumble tomorrow ans England will knock the runs off with ease.
Probably chasing less than 100.
The series is set up perfectly for the final test.
Who said that Tests in Asian are boring?
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this game is over.
Pakistan will crumble tomorrow ans England will knock the runs off with ease.
Probably chasing less than 100.
The series is set up perfectly for the final test.
Who said that Tests in Asian are boring?
I think you've been watching the ashes 2010/2011 dvd too much :D
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My theory is Ajmals's action will be forgotten if England win the series just as this recent report from Cricinfo:
"The growing quality of pitches in the UAE has contributed to two engrossing Tests. It was widely anticipated that this could be a tedious series on unresponsive pitches. Instead, there has been enough life for bowlers to relish an even contest."
after every one condemning these pitches initially. Or this from the same match report
"But the main benefits have come from the advent of DRS. Technology is rapidly making defensive pad play a thing of the past as umpires grant lbw decisions where once they would have looked askance. The game is different now: livelier, more combative and eminently more watchable. The downside is that lbw decisions are at an all-time high but with the future of Test cricket in such doubt, technology has provided a timely shot in the arm. "
which is certainly more upbeat about the impact of DRS than Bob Willis after Ajmal's five lbws in the first innings of the first test.
Of course this is all conjecture...
I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. What has DRS got to do with Bob Willis saying Ajmal is a chucker?
DRS is a good thing though.....apparently Simon Taufel hates it though? No idea why....
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this game is over.
Pakistan will crumble tomorrow ans England will knock the runs off with ease.
Probably chasing less than 100.
The series is set up perfectly for the final test.
Who said that Tests in Asian are boring?
I think I would rather be in Pakistan's position than England's, if they can get another 100 it will be a nail biting chase.
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I think I would rather be in Pakistan's position than England's, if they can get another 100 it will be a nail biting chase.
Why?
Pakistan are effectively at 55-4, and, with a tail which managed to add 1 run for the loss of 3 wickets in the last innings, I can't see this match going any way other than England.
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I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. What has DRS got to do with Bob Willis saying Ajmal is a chucker?
DRS is a good thing though.....apparently Simon Taufel hates it though? No idea why....
Bob's point that a lot of England players would not have been given lbw if there was no DRS. He was sad about the whole affair. Now its a good thing all of a sudden. Sour grapes...
So my point is Ajmal is a chucker as long as he gets between England and the series. No problems in County Cricket last year when he did get people out on doosras (I saw a couple in T20s). And then the theory that English batsman started to falter in the last session yesterday because he was bending the arm more.
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Great fightback by England; this is how you apply yourselves in alien conditions. The game can go either way still.
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I am glad so far that Pakistan has not folded as they have done consistently over the last couple of years. They might skittle out in the first session tomorrow but so far they have shown some resolve. I think England are clear favorites to win at this stage but a good morning session by Pakistan can put some doubts in the mind of English players.
I think batting has been pretty much even in the series and Pakistani spinners have been more dominant than their English counterparts. The English pace attack is clearly superior a position which Pakistan has not been familiar with broadly over the last couple of decades. Stuart Broad, who I have always admired as a bowler, is underrated internationally as a Test Bowler. Watching him bowl with all his subtle movements and variations (although not so subtle gestures) always reminds me of how Mohammad Asif used to outfox batsmen. I think he can probably reach that level but it depends upon his attitude and commitment to cricket.
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Bob's point that a lot of England players would not have been given lbw if there was no DRS. He was sad about the whole affair. Now its a good thing all of a sudden. Sour grapes...
So my point is Ajmal is a chucker as long as he gets between England and the series. No problems in County Cricket last year when he did get people out on doosras (I saw a couple in T20s). And then the theory that English batsman started to falter in the last session yesterday because he was bending the arm more.
I don't know what test match you've been watching but DRS has only accounted for one batsman in this entire game (as of close of play today only 1 decision has been overturned)
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I don't know what test match you've been watching but DRS has only accounted for one batsman in this entire game (as of close of play today only 1 decision has been overturned)
The whole discussion is not on the DRS but the willingness of umpires to give LBW to batsman when playing spin even if they take a big stride but are in line with the stumps. In years gone by it was a a useful strategy to pad up against spinners because umpires would not give you out while getting a big stride in unless you were playing across the line.
Have you watched the matches and analysis or is it from Cricinfo ;)
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monty takes 6, Eng need 145 to win.
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monty takes 6, Eng need 145 to win.
Just a shame that it took a 10-wicket defeat and an injury to Tremlett before he was picked!
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3rd umpire shocker...
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It's mostly not out when they use long lense as distorts things
Unlucky for bell
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Squeaky...Bum...Time :(
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It's mostly not out when they use long lense as distorts things
There was no doubt, massive inside edge and hand underneath the ball. There was no angle at which the hand wasn't underneath.
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I agree I think was out even though it looked to have bounced it looked to me as though bounced off fingers in to hand but when they go to the long lens they give it not out most of time as it distorts the image
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Squeaky...Bum...Time :(
Definately
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Anyone else think KP really needs to just hit out and play attacking cricket? I don't see him lasting very long if he keeps poking at everything. And Adnan Akmal really needs a punch for being that annoying ;) " "whaheeeeeeeey."
and just after I typed this he's out. Typical.
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Wow, just wow.
All depends on Broad now
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Strauss to get a match winning knock
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Should have been out though.
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England run the risk of being the alternative India - inspired under their own conditions / seaming conditions - yet hopeless in a spinny situation.
Morgan - who is supposedly a fine player of spin - looks shot and has to step down. KP - again another good player of spin - looks a novice.
You do not remain the 'best team in the world' unless you can adapt to conditions all round the world. Is Bopara actually on the tour? The bowling attack is right, but the batting needs a little shake-up I feel.
One does wonder though, how the current Australian and South African side would fare in these conditions? The Aussies - not so well, the Saffers I fancy to make a better fist of things.
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Battings carrying too many passengers at the moment, only Cook and Trott are in any sort of form. However with only Bopara as backup it's hardly worth making a change as he's even worse.
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Where's your money peeps???
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Where's your money peeps???
My money is on England :(
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My money is on Pakistan
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Pakistan
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Battings carrying too many passengers at the moment, only Cook and Trott are in any sort of form. However with only Bopara as backup it's hardly worth making a change as he's even worse.
Bell, KP and Morgan have scored 94 runs between them in 12 innings.
Bopara cannot be any worse, plus he can bowluseful overs. Whatever people think of his attitude and past record, he has to be a better option than Morgan.
England should play 2 spinners all winter, so someone like him is need.
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Australia will probably be the next number 1 side as they do look competitive in alien conditions.
Both England and India have their weaknesses: England in the sub-continent and India in England/Australia.
Great to see Panesar delivering, it would be a fairy tale ending for him if it is Panesar who hits the winning runs.
Edit: This is ridiculous: Trott and Broad now gone.
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Why can we not play spin for toffee
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I'd give Bopara a game, bu he is crap.
The rest of the need to get (No Swearing Please) forwards to the spinners, just how many lbw's have there been compared to bat pad catches!Especially if they can't read Ajmal!
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Trott's gone, Broad gone its Pakistan's game.
Rehman, they should call him Rainman! 8)
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Gee for the number 1 test team in the world they at batting worse than India
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For a team trying to save a test match that really was a poor shot by Broad
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How much did that bowl to broad come back in.
Reminiscent of Swann to Ponting in the ashes.
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Get Forward!ARGH
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For a team trying to save a test match that really was a poor shot by Broad
They weren't trying to save it, they were trying to win it...
By the way, where's your mace?
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They weren't trying to save it, they were trying to win it...
By the way, where's your mace?
At 7/68 I'd call it saving a test match
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Why are we playing back nearly all the dismissals I've seen from the spinners are off back foot get bloody forward you turds
Time to swing and see how close we can get
Can't blame broad he has to at least try to attack as other bats have blocked and gone
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No way at that score your batting out a day and a bit
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No way at that score your batting out a day and a bit
My point exactly!
At least it wasn't Ajmal who caused all the damage this innings round.
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No way at that score your batting out a day and a bit
I didn't say playing for a draw I said saving a test match. You don't think If Broad used his brain he could have batted long enough for another 72 runs?
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Stunning win for Pakistan. Won the series.
Credit where credit is due! Rehman and Ajmal bowled beautifully in tandem. After all that's happened to Pakistan over the last few years, they deserve this. Congrats.
Like Bob Willis just said 'every team would struggle against this bowling line up in these conditions.'
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I didn't say playing for a draw I said saving a test match. You don't think If Broad used his brain he could have batted long enough for another 72 runs?
No as scratching around looking to survive is what got others out so prefer to see him play his game as came off in first innings so could've again
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Really poor from England today, the batting has been woeful all tour. There is no point being too dramatic about changes, but Morgan must go & I'd have Bopara at no.4 with KP dropping down to no.6 for the final match. Morgan's dismissal was dreadful - a 2nd ball duck that highlighted a poor test batsmen who in my opinion is technically not good enough to improve.
There are some cracking batsmen coming through, but it is worth noting that these batsmen have failed in a series loss to Bangladesh 'A' (admittedly in ODI, not first-class cricket). In particular, James Taylor & Jonny Bairstow struggled on spinning wickets, so are not the answer currently. A left-field selection (which won't happen) for the Sri Lanka tour is Jos Buttler, best batsmen in Bangladesh for the Lions & scored 102* off 56 balls vs Sri Lanka 'A' a couple of days ago...... however, Morgan's route to the test team was via the ODI arena and it hasn't worked.
Full credit to Pakistan, they have been superb.
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All credit to Pakistan though really good spin attack and best attack we have faced for a while and had found us out badly
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If we're going even more left field (somewhere towards the burger vans), Samit Patel? Fifth bowler, extremely good batsman, and probably has the ability to play spin better than most in the side (smashing 73 off 40 balls against India's fairly decent spinners being a recent example)...
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I didn't say playing for a draw I said saving a test match. You don't think If Broad used his brain he could have batted long enough for another 72 runs?
Come on when Swann bowled Ponting through the gate, it was a moment of genius, but when Rehman does Broad, its poor batting. England haven't lost just because the batted poorly, you have to give credit to Pakistani bowlers. England bowl well when they get the Pakistanis out but when Pakistan get England out it poor batting. DOUBLE STANDARDS!
The bowl to Broad came back around 10 degrees, you just can't accustom for a bowl to do that much.
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No as scratching around looking to survive is what got others out so prefer to see him play his game as came off in first innings so could've again
None of the other batsmen were in long enough to "scratch around" were they? Lol
Bell - 3 balls
Pietersen - 8 balls
Morgan - 2 balls
Trott - 11 balls
Broad - 2 balls
Swann - 4 balls
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We need to find a decent player of spin as best players of spin I've seen use feet and play front foot but we are rooted to crease
It baffles me as our coach was a great player of spin so why can't they learn from him
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No we're not but we're looking to play that way
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For the second time in this series I am very pleased with the result, lol :D
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Come on when Swann bowled Ponting through the gate, it was a moment of genius, but when Rehman does Broad, its poor batting. England haven't lost just because the batted poorly, you have to give credit to Pakistani bowlers. England bowl well when they get the Pakistanis out but when Pakistan get England out it poor batting. DOUBLE STANDARDS!
The bowl to Broad came back around 10 degrees, you just can't accustom for a bowl to do that much.
Really don't know what you are on about. I never mentioned anything about swann and ponting. Broads shot was a poor shot considering the circumstances and I don't remember Pontings but I'm sure that was probably poor shot selection too. So go attack someone else sore loser.
And I most certainly would call all out for 72 poor batting
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Theyve got to give rav ago, he can't do much worse!
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Number4 - I take your point, though to be fair Trott did, um, have the trotts...
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Completely right qalib, brilliant ball from Rehman to dismiss Broad. I would have batted Broad at 3 today in the absence of Trott to try & give momentum to the innings as coming in down the order and playing shots when under pressure is extremely difficult.
If Strauss / Cook could turn back time, I'm sure they would have been more aggressive in the first 10 overs, but it was a collective batting failure.
I like the Samit Patel selection theory. The reality is we are quality in seaming conditions, poor in the subcontinent, so why not have slightly differing teams for differing conditions.
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Woeful batting performance. It was like watching my village team when the opposition bring on a pie chucker who then proceeds to run through our batting order with a string of average deliveries!
I'm sure we will see England's usual reaction to a heavy defeat by changing a bowler. Finn in, Anderson out! Morgan has to go, but they don't have the nerve to drop KP.
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For the second time in this series I am very pleased with the result, lol :D
Ah well, could have been worse Langer, could have been all out for 47 ;)
To cheer the English fans up, as after all, the only thing in test cricket that matters is the Ashes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ghRmApqMlU
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I think this puts the Indian series into perspective. India played poorly and maybe made England look better than they actually are.
England at home would beat any team in the world at the moment, but it is their batting in sub continent conditions that let them down. They've got Sri Lanka and then India away. By the time they tour India I think they really should have sorted out their batting technique against spin, if not they will get hammered, just like the recent one day series.
Well done pakistan, they showed great bottle and excellent bowling and batting. Hafeez and Gul tied up the english openers very well, and should be given credit.
I love test matches!!!
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England took the number one spot from a team that struggled abroad in alien conditions.
How the roles have reversed when they play abroad? This is going to be a looooooong and testing year for England and time will tell if they can hold their own in the subcontinent. Cant see Oz or the Saffas doing well in the subcontinent anyway so alls even stevens.
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In my opinion there isn't a clear cut number one team at present. To win in alien conditions not just your backyard or againt the minnows.
Inspite of what they have been through, players being jailed, unable to host international cricket, you have to give credit where credits due.
Englands batting had flopped 3 out of 4 times. That's what cost them. They had a negative approach chasing this small target. You must try to kill off the game as soon as possible chasing a small total. I have seen it happen too many times. I would've thought England would have wised up to this.
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I said it earlier, much easier to reach number 1 than stay there. By the way I think if England lose 3-0 SA will hold the mace come april.
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Why?
Pakistan are effectively at 55-4, and, with a tail which managed to add 1 run for the loss of 3 wickets in the last innings, I can't see this match going any way other than England.
I told you so...
Chasing on a slow track is very tough.
I don't think the SA team will get hold of the mace for a while yet.
as for the rest of it - Eng still has, I think the best all round team in the world at the moment - but we still need to start playing spin better to earn our ranking.
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If SA beat NZ 3-0 and England lose the next match SA will hold the mace and be number 1 come the april handover.
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Eng better
not lose the last game then!! hope for rain in NZ then
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Shhhh Buzz!
I honestly expected better from England.
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I have played a lot of village cricket and this was village cricket from England. And they know it.
What is frustrating is that they played most of the cricket apart from one session (and how costly is the drop of Misbah looking now?)
So did I Wazza
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Me too didn't seem to be any plans as to how they were gonna score there runs.
Show intent to reduce men around the bat.
Like Misbah + Broad earlier in the game
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Wow!! What a stunning result; well played Pakistan :o
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Just to add:
It is funny how the number one sides in the world are suddenly found to be so clueless the moment they travel to alien conditions
There is clearly no number one side in the world right now after the Aussie era; one or two series wins does not make a team 'great' though the ranking might show them to be numero uno. We found that with India with zero overseas credentials when they became 'number one' and now with England. I think the Aussies and the WI before them have spoiled us by raising the bar too high.
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Wow indeed. Well played Pakistan! Lots of wise people said that we would see how good this england team were after playing on the sub-continent. Abject at best I think is the answer. I on't think there are many teams (bar perhaps South Africa) who seem to be able to play well on anything other than their home pitches. Poor show all round but one bad series doesn't necessarily make a bad team and hopefully lessons can be learnt about playing spin.
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Wow indeed. Well played Pakistan! Lots of wise people said that we would see how good this england team were after playing on the sub-continent. Abject at best I think is the answer. I on't think there are many teams (bar perhaps South Africa) who seem to be able to play well on anything other than their home pitches. Poor show all round but one bad series doesn't necessarily make a bad team and hopefully lessons can be learnt about playing spin.
It is not the Sub Continent, it is the Middle East, and Australia have never lost a series there.
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It is not the Sub Continent, it is the Middle East, and Australia have never lost a series there.
Honest question--- how many series have Australia played there?
As a neutral, I think this Australian side has more potential than both South Africa and England. They have had some hiccups but I think they are on the right path to becoming a very good side again and once they can sort out their injuries they will become even better.
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I agree, England have peaked similar to 2005 and are heading back down again.
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There is clearly no number one side in the world right now after the Aussie era; one or two series wins does not make a team 'great' though the ranking might show them to be numero uno. We found that with India with zero overseas credentials when they became 'number one' and now with England. I think the Aussies and the WI before them have spoiled us by raising the bar too high.
^ Couldn't agree with this more. A great era to live in!
Pakistan were great to win in the conditions of their home-ban and recent betting scandals. Just a shame they lost so many potentially great years to cheap and crooked cheating/betting scams.
England can take full credit or their loss too - they were mesmorised the type of which I I haven't seen since Warne.
I've always said this, but I've never rated Peiterson. A player who scores runs when everyone else does and the wind is behind him, but I can't remember any innings he has 'saved', and I really think that makes him an unfortunate unique in modern memory. I really dislike him as a cricketer.
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Really don't know what you are on about. I never mentioned anything about swann and ponting. Broads shot was a poor shot considering the circumstances and I don't remember Pontings but I'm sure that was probably poor shot selection too. So go attack someone else sore loser.
And I most certainly would call all out for 72 poor batting
I know you didn't mention Swann & Ponting, I used this as an example of a similar delivery getting two different evaluations. Swann bowled Ponting through the gate with a beauty and so did Rehman. One is deemed a great bowl and the other deemed poor batting, i just dont understand it.
As for attacking you, I didn't mean anything personal by it old chap, just highlighting the double standards when it comes to cricket. Sorry if you took it personally.
By the way i'm Pakistan fan, not an Aussie. :D
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The problem in this series has been that the England batting has not been able to cope with Pakistani spin bowling. It's not a new phenomenon England have a history against spin ( I mean mystery spin) in Asian conditions.
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It is not the Sub Continent, it is the Middle East, and Australia have never lost a series there.
Are you for real? You are a bigger troll than JonPinson and Lekka put together!
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I agree, England have peaked similar to 2005 and are heading back down again.
And at that time, they had lost to Pakisan as well.
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England's main problem is that they all ways want to play of the back foot. In these conditions, the pitches don't allow this to be possible. Moreso The Sky comms harp on about Bell, KP, Morgan being 'good players of spin' but that's not the case. Playing spin well in England isn't a good indicator. Days 1-3 in England theres little to no spin. So basically the spinner is just a slow bowler. In terms of facing slow bowlers, England are fine. Facing real spin, England are pretty much clueless. Matches in the sub continent since march 2001, 18 Tests vs Pak, Ind or SL and they won once. Mumbai 2006. Please I selected the 3 major Asian teams. Bangladesh are excluded.
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It is not the Sub Continent, it is the Middle East, and Australia have never lost a series there.
Australia were clueless to Afridi and Ajmal but they came back quickly and read there art.
So they did a good comeback but didn't lose the series.
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The pitches in the UAE are imported from Pakistan, so they are sub contintental.
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The pitches in the UAE are imported from Pakistan, so they are sub contintental.
Hain? How they are imported from Pakistan?
The curator is ICC's, weather is different (it might be similar if you say) etc.
LAstly it is neutral venue and both teams have equal advantages and disadvantages.
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Hain? How they are imported from Pakistan?
The curator is ICC's, weather is different (it might be similar if you say) etc.
LAstly it is neutral venue and both teams have equal advantages and disadvantages.
Due to Pakistan playing away from home, their board supplies the pitches. ICC groundsman has to ensure the pitch is suitable. Botham mentioned the origins of the pitch after the match. Despite the series being held on neutral grounds, it's a home series for Pakistan.
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we have always had problems with real spinners,especially bell he couldnt handle muralitharan or warne, morgan for me looks well out of his depth,bell peterson and morgan not getting runs is where are big problems are
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Due to Pakistan playing away from home, their board supplies the pitches. ICC groundsman has to ensure the pitch is suitable. Botham mentioned the origins of the pitch after the match. Despite the series being held on neutral grounds, it's a home series for Pakistan.
I'm not too sure about PCB supplying pitches to be honest.
Never heard that, regardless that doesn't matter
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I've always said this, but I've never rated Peiterson. A player who scores runs when everyone else does and the wind is behind him, but I can't remember any innings he has 'saved', and I really think that makes him an unfortunate unique in modern memory. I really dislike him as a cricketer.
Who would you select in his place?
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His 150 @ the Oval arguably won us the Ashes in '05, England have been crying out for someone unique, different and ballsy since the dawn of time shame he gets the flack when other batsmen look equally enept facing spin as well. His downfall is the English media who love to destroy anyone slightly arrogant.
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on the pitches in Dubai, they have been made from imported Pakistani clay/soil, so while they pitches are not imported in their entirety, their base is as you can't really have a square on sand, as they found out at the viv Richards stadium...
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KP is a good player but by no means a great one. The manner with which he gets out is shambolic at times. I disagree with The Bird's comment regarding the media, I think their failure to highlight his consistently irresponsible shots has helped him. There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence, but KP misses that and straddles the line between arrogance and stupidity.
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KP is a good player but by no means a great one. The manner with which he gets out is shambolic at times. I disagree with The Bird's comment regarding the media, I think their failure to highlight his consistently irresponsible shots has helped him. There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence, but KP misses that and straddles the line between arrogance and stupidity.
The media single handedly blew his flaws against left arm spin up completely and his so called bust up with Peter Moores!!! Everyone loved him when he switched hit murali and co for fun and now hes useless, thats the package you get with him. He's the one who galvanized England's Ashes win in '05 and stood up to the Aussies. Everyone followed his lead, if England drop him they are deluded.
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I agree. He does have his flaws like any batsman and his form has been patchy of late, but lets not forget that he's had 2 double tons in the last year or so! And at present I don't see anyone better for England to bring in (suggestions please)
There are people ahead of him in the queue to be dropped anyway
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I completely agree he should be in the team and please don't think I'm doubting his ability. He's a long way from deserving to be dropped but he needs to be far more responsible. His reasoning of "It's just the way I play" is a pathetic excuse that doesn't wash at international level.
KP had an impact in the '05 Ashes but so did 10+ others. He also had no right to make an issue with the coach that he had turn into something that undermined the team. It's easy to say it was good move in hindsight. His dismissals are indicative of someone who forgets their position and importance within a team effort.
The media did incorrectly emphasise his frailties against left arm spin, which was wrong. In truth they should have been highlighting that he was being dismissed not because he couldn't play left arm spin but instead because he kept attempting play shots that were not high percentage when facing that type of bowler.
He's not the flamboyant new boy he was in '05 anymore, he's a senior member of a team that needs him to play with maturity.
Having said all that, who would replace him. He's a match winner.
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would be interested to know what KP avaerages in his last three years in test, I'm pretty sure he's been pretty inconsistent?
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Think he Averaged 70+ last year, England's frailties against spin is very well documented. The best players of spin don't let them settle. Clarke, Lara etc. would just dance down the track and remove a few close fielders and straight away gain the advantage. If you let good spinners bowl at you they will make you look silly. India away is the perfect time to bounce back on the Asian Style pitches. Congrats to Pakistan as well world test cricket is alive and well!!!!
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Think he Averaged 70+ last year, England's frailties against spin is very well documented. The best players of spin don't let them settle. Clarke, Lara etc. would just dance down the track and remove a few close fielders and straight away gain the advantage. If you let good spinners bowl at you they will make you look silly. India away is the perfect time to bounce back on the Asian Style pitches. Congrats to Pakistan as well world test cricket is alive and well!!!!
You're a bit deluded to think England will fair better when they tour India. First of all England will go to Sri Lanka in March.
India's last home series loss was in 2004 to Australia. Since then they have played 13 home series - winning 9 and drawing 4. The sides to gain draws where Pakistan in 2004/05. England in 2005/06. And South Africa in 2007/08 and 2009/10.
Make no bones about it, India's the toughest place to tour in the sub continent.
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would be interested to know what KP avaerages in his last three years in test, I'm pretty sure he's been pretty inconsistent?
Since 2009, Pietersen averages 46.78. This is boosted by the recent series with India, where he pummelled the hapless Indians for 533 runs @ 106.60. If he didn't have that golden series, he averages 40.
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Sorry think you misinterpreted what I meant England have an opportunity to bounce back against a top side in foreign conditions in India. A win in Sri Lanka will mean/prove nothing really. And by bouncing back i mean not get spun out for peanuts just competing will be a bonus. The Indian team hopefully will be full of Young hungry cricketers when we go there so should be interesting...
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Sorry think you misinterpreted what I meant England have an opportunity to bounce back against a top side in foreign conditions in India. A win in Sri Lanka will mean/prove nothing really. And by bouncing back i mean not get spun out for peanuts just competing will be a bonus. The Indian team hopefully will be full of Young hungry cricketers when we go there so should be interesting...
Sorry I thought you meant India would be a push over. Crossed wires lol. Winning in SL would be a great achievement though. Only Australia have won there in recent times.
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Sorry I thought you meant India would be a push over. Crossed wires lol. Winning in SL would be a great achievement though. Only Australia have won there in recent times.
No nothing in India is easy and surely the recent Indian debacle cannot continue, I hope so anyway ;) Sri Lanka without Murali are a different team entirely some very tidy batsmen emerging tho Perara looked brutal in the recent ODI's
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No nothing in India is easy and surely the recent Indian debacle cannot continue, I hope so anyway ;) Sri Lanka without Murali are a different team entirely some very tidy batsmen emerging tho Perara looked brutal in the recent ODI's
Funny thing about India is they can get battered away from home, yet soon as they return they start winning again. You'd expect sooner or later a tour hangover, but I guess 'home is where the heart is'!!!
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Quick question just because a side is chasing 146 to win does that mean they have a god given right to win the game ??
What is the job description for the bowling side are they just there to make up the numbers or get the opposition out for as less as possible ??
Credit where credit is due Pak bowled really well no doubt you cant blame everything on English batsman that were smashing everyone around last few years and were the best thing since sliced bread
You really wanna know why England cant play spin, I'll be honest and it might piss a lot of people off but it starts at grass root level with the coaches everything is so technical and you must play like boycott in the V to get a county contract
If there is something different about you they will change it, I used to play with a sri lankan guy when I was younger who was about 15 and bowled like murali same action everything went to county trials and got told to bowl like john embury why ?????
Had an another young guy who would flick the ball of middle and off through midwicket and did it with great success and always scored runs and got told to play straight didn't suit him hardly scored runs and never played another county game ???
Look at all the greats of the game, there is something distinctively different about them, Lara with his back swing and one foot in the air, Viv with his chewing gum no lid and smacking it for fun
Warne with all his variations, Mural and now possibly Saeed Ajmal
Why do youngsters always get things coached out of them because it ain't in the ENGLISH rule book, if you have natural talent and ability let it flourish
Look at all the recent youth world cups which teams do you see in the finals all the time ?? coincidence hey !!
We have a south african who is our best player (KP)
An Irish man who is meant to be great at playing spin in the ODI arena and scoring runs (Morgan)
Yet we dint wanna pick anyone different bring Monty In (Indian decent) and look what happens
Things at grass root have to change
Just because you go too a posh school have rich parents and a great education and quality of life does not mean your going to a world class cricketer
Need to look outside of the box
Many thanks for reading and like I said I apologise if I have offended anyone I'm just voicing my opinion !!!!!!!
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Plus everyone is saying England should have been more positive ??????
Well how when the first shot your told is a forward defence ??
What was I told "you cant score runs unless you learn to stay at the wicket" yeah I agree with but what's the point of staying there for 100 balls and getting 20 when I could easily get 20 of 30 balls ????
All the innings needed was a cameo from anyone a quick 25 or 30 and the game would have been Englands
They can do it look at the 20 20 success
As a cricket supporter we all love to see Gilchrist, Warner, Sehwag, Gayle, Jayasuriya, Afridi why ??
Is it because they block the (No Swearing Please) of the ball no did not think soo
Nasser made the point 21 of 15 overs set the tone of the innings really
England got into that position why because of Broad why because he smashed it maybe?? then all the talk of batting 3 second innings but because he gets cleaned up again its a bad shot what would have happened if it sailed over the ropes for a six ???
Mind set has to change
Unless you stay at the wkt and make a match winning contribution it counts for nothing, be honest when we play on sat in the leagues when an opener spends ages at the crease and gets dismissed for say 30 odd when your chasing 2oo plus and you have a few overs left at the rate required is high does it put pressure on the lower order ??
Yeah it gets easier to bat the more time you spend at the crease but what's the point when your out and cant take advantage of all the time you spent in the middle
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Great speech Kaz.. Problem is no-one stayed at the crease at all and it certainly wasn't a high run rate... a day and a half to chase 146?... no pressure at all... Poor cricket I'd say.. Yes Pakistan bowled well but as Nasser said the pitch wasn't a mine field. Problem with Test cricket these days is everyone wants to go out and play 20/20 style... 20/20 has ruined test cricket. Sometimes you just need to hang around and push ones and two's to win a game... Every game can't be played in the same style.
A forward defensive shot would have saved Broad from being clean bowled. Sometimes the best form of attack is defense.
Ever heard of waiting for the bad balls
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Great speech Kaz.. Problem is no-one stayed at the crease at all and it certainly wasn't a high run rate... a day and a half to chase 146?... no pressure at all... Poor cricket I'd say.. Yes Pakistan bowled well but as Nasser said the pitch wasn't a mine field. Problem with Test cricket these days is everyone wants to go out and play 20/20 style... 20/20 has ruined test cricket. Sometimes you just need to hang around and push ones and two's to win a game... Every game can't be played in the same style.
A forward defensive shot would have saved Broad from being clean bowled. Sometimes the best form of attack is defense.
Ever heard of waiting for the bad balls
Lol I have mate but the honest truth is the Pak bowlers really didn't bowl many and when the scoreboard isnt moving it creates pressure hence the batsman has to do something different to create scoring opportunities hence that's when mistakes happen and people loose their wickets
Agree that a game can be won with ones and twos no doubt but that wasn't happening, it did in the first innings with cook and trott annd look at the difference it made to Englands total the fact remains that everyone said Broad changed the match and were raving about what a great all rounder he is all of a sudden didnt hear much from Harmison Willis Botham of Nasser after that second innings though ??
If KP smashed a quick 30/40 they would be raving about what a great player he is
Cricket is a team sport you WIN as a team and you LOOSE as a team
England haven't become a bad team overnight, being number one creates pressure because everyone wants to beat you and that creates mental pressure which can makes or breaks players !!!!!
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Lol I have mate but the honest truth is the Pak bowlers really didn't bowl many and when the scoreboard isnt moving it creates pressure hence the batsman has to do something different to create scoring opportunities hence that's when mistakes happen and people loose their wickets
Agree that a game can be won with ones and twos no doubt but that wasn't happening, it did in the first innings with cook and trott annd look at the difference it made to Englands total the fact remains that everyone said Broad changed the match and were raving about what a great all rounder he is all of a sudden didnt hear much from Harmison Willis Botham of Nasser after that second innings though ??
If KP smashed a quick 30/40 they would be raving about what a great player he is
Cricket is a team sport you WIN as a team and you LOOSE as a team
England haven't become a bad team overnight, being number one creates pressure because everyone wants to beat you and that creates mental pressure which can makes or breaks players !!!!!
Well if Pakistan weren't bowling any bad balls then ones and twos were the only way England were going to win the game wasn't it.
I don't think anyone has accused England of becoming a bad team... They are an excellent team... They just played bad cricket. I seriously think going out and trying to smash the balls to the boundary wasn't the way to go. Staying at the crease was the way to go which as I pointed out previously the English batsmen just didn't do.
Bell - 3 balls
Pietersen - 8 balls
Morgan - 2 balls
Trott - 11 balls
Broad - 2 balls
Swann - 4 ball
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Correct Number4....however I do love the irony of your quote at the bottom of your post...
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Correct Number4....however I do love the irony of your quote at the bottom of your post...
Thats my motto lol
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interesting suggestion in the paper today, Gower thought swann should have gone out as a pinch hitter... I think he is right. in a chase like that getting to 70 or 80 quickly can kill the game.
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I think it's frustrating that the England management seem to be so inflexible with the team. Agree that a pinch hitter could have taken the game away from Pakistan very quickly, but England seem to lack the imagination to do such a thing.
Monty only got a game because Tremlett was injured, again because the management lack imagination.
Ultimately though, it probably wouldn't have affected the outcome. Bell or Pieterson should have the ability to take that kind of initiative.
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The England management team have helped us get to number 1, though I doubt we will stay there for too long! The players have to take the blame, went into their shells and didn't back themselves. Ajmal was in their heads before the series started, and a poor first test match just made things worse, escalating into yesterday's shocker...
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I have to say one bad series and you guys are quick to give up on your team. They got to number one for a reason - They are a good team. I wouldn't be looking at chopping heads, I'd be keeping this team as long as possible
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I have to say one bad series and you guys are quick to give up on your team. They got to number one for a reason - They are a good team. I wouldn't be looking at chopping heads, I'd be keeping this team as long as possible
We won't be giving up, will just be quick to criticise, like every other nation (though we like to do it more than most)
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Well if Pakistan weren't bowling any bad balls then ones and twos were the only way England were going to win the game wasn't it.
I don't think anyone has accused England of becoming a bad team... They are an excellent team... They just played bad cricket. I seriously think going out and trying to smash the balls to the boundary wasn't the way to go. Staying at the crease was the way to go which as I pointed out previously the English batsmen just didn't do.
Bell - 3 balls
Pietersen - 8 balls
Morgan - 2 balls
Trott - 11 balls
Broad - 2 balls
Swann - 4 ball
Think it is slightly harsh to include Trott on that list. He performed very well in the 2nd innings of the 1st test and the 1st innings of this test. Trott wasn't feeling particularly well(Thats why he batted so far down) on the day and it would be very difficult for him to make an innings when not feeling well and wickets falling all around him..
Our problem is we have too much of a bandwagon middle order. If Trott and Cook score big runs then usually Bell, Pietersen and Morgan will follow suit(Thats why they have abnormally high averages when most of the time they get low scores..), however, if the top order doesn't score many runs then the middle order also seems to collapse which is very annoying. Personally I don't think Pietersen and Morgan are right for Test cricket, we need Trott style batsmen who can hold the line and make an innings when everybody else is falling around them.
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Gutsy batsman like collingwood @ 6 ?(Similar to role Steve Waugh did for the Ausies)
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Our problem is we have too much of a bandwagon middle order. If Trott and Cook score big runs then usually Bell, Pietersen and Morgan will follow suit(Thats why they have abnormally high averages when most of the time they get low scores..), however, if the top order doesn't score many runs then the middle order also seems to collapse which is very annoying. Personally I don't think Pietersen and Morgan are right for Test cricket, we need Trott style batsmen who can hold the line and make an innings when everybody else is falling around them.
Pietersen does average around 50 so I don't think you can say he is not right for Test cricket. I simply believe that his confidence is low and for a player such as KP this is a big loss. Morgan on the other hand averages low 30s I believe and the ways he has got out in the last year makes me think he is far from ready for tight test cricket. Oh what we would do for Collingwood now! Gritty, stubborn and also had the courage to back himself and would've no doubt have looked to hit these spinners over the top a couple of times to release some pressure and remove some close fielders. Add a few overs of handy medium pace and the best fielding i've ever seen in an England shirt and you have a pretty good cricketer. Sometimes you don't realise what you've got till its gone!
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Are you for real? You are a bigger troll than JonPinson and Lekka put together!
Troll?
No.
Australia played Pakistan in those same neutral venues as England has, and Australia won 3-0.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64002.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64001.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64003.html
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Australia were clueless to Afridi and Ajmal but they came back quickly and read there art.
So they did a good comeback but didn't lose the series.
Australia beat Pakistan 3-0 in the series held in the Middle East. See above.
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the 2003 Aussie team is a very different quality to the current Aussie team or to this English team.
a poor comparison really.
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10 years ago Vic. How do you think the current Australian side would fare?
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the 2003 Aussie team is a very different quality to the current Aussie team or to this English team.
a poor comparison really.
Hmm, well there's a surprise. Living in the past lol
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Troll?
No.
Australia played Pakistan in those same neutral venues as England has, and Australia won 3-0.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64002.html[/url]
Statto! :o
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64001.html[/url]
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64003.html[/url]
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Troll?
No.
Australia played Pakistan in those same neutral venues as England has, and Australia won 3-0.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64002.html[/url]
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64001.html[/url]
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64003.html[/url]
lets be fair on this one, that team was a reaction to poor world cup performance with just about everyone with experience dropped. No wasim, no saeed anwar, no Inzamam. Plus that side had barely played cricket together. the two can not be compared, this team is certainly a lot better and settled as well.
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Yes, totally different teams and different eras - for God sakes, the Waugh brothers were still playing!
However, I made the point that:
1/ The Emirates are not in the Sub Continent/Asia
And in response that Australia had never won there as well...
2/ The only time Australia played a test series in the Mid East, Australia won every test.
I wasn't the one making the comparison with the present, other Limey (No Swearing Please) here were.
It seems the imminent loss of the "20 years of #1" status little more than 6 months after it was acquired to the South Africans is making some Limey's extremely jumpy.
The level of arrogance and sheer stupidity displayed on this board over the last six months is unravelling now...and the major culprits are panicking as the ship slowly sinks beneath them.
Enjoy #1 while it lasts chaps.
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I think you are miss reading a little nationalistic enthusiasm with arrogance.
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I think you are miss reading a little nationalistic enthusiasm with arrogance.
Nothing wrong with celebrating your team being #1 and being so damned good.
Most on here have been quite reasonable - so it would be unfair for me to suggest all have been insufferable, when most have done nothing more than rejoice that their nation has climbed the mountain.
The simpletons that were gloating that Australia had gone into a "West Indies type decline" of which there would be no return, well, they are the ones who have raised my ire.
When I mentioned that it would take about five years for Australia to be ready to challenge for the #1 position, I was laughed out of teh house as if I was insane. Miscreants on here would then proceed to attempt to show me that I was in for ten to twenty years of misery, with a smashing from Sri Lanka, a 2-0 crushing by South Africa and 4-0 crushing from India awaiting.
All I could say at the time was that "Australia regenerate quicker than anybody else".
I was treated like an escaped mental asylum inmate for suggesting the above.
The wheel is turning and the idiots days of gloating on here are numbered.
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I think the best way to compare England and Australia is probably to comment on WHEN England play Australia - the rest is all if's and but's and maybe's.
This particular thread is for talking about England vs Pakistan.
Pakistan have bowled well and applied themselves when they've batted, England have bowled very well, their batting has been abysmal and mentally weak.
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10 years ago Vic. How do you think the current Australian side would fare?
I don't know.
I will have to wait to find out.
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I think the best way to compare England and Australia is probably to comment on WHEN England play Australia - the rest is all if's and but's and maybe's.
This particular thread is for talking about England vs Pakistan.
Pakistan have bowled well and applied themselves when they've batted, England have bowled very well, their batting has been abysmal and mentally weak.
Rehman barely turned a ball, yet the English batsmen got themselves into a tangle as to what *might* happen rather than what actually was happening.
The conditions were not conducive to fast bowlers, but they were hardly a spinning dust bowl either.
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Wow!! Just checked the score; wonder why there is no discussion on this yet?
2-1 series I think. Good overall win for Pakistan. A victory in the 3rd test for England will be good for the psyche of the team.
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Looks like the awful second innings in the 2nd Test may have cost England the chance of a series win.
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interesting interview with KP, same old subject with the left arm over spinners eh
id love to see KP pos up and swing the bat against these pakistan slow bowlers
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Rehman barely turned a ball, yet the English batsmen got themselves into a tangle as to what *might* happen rather than what actually was happening.
The conditions were not conducive to fast bowlers, but they were hardly a spinning dust bowl either.
Yeah. the deliveries that dismissed morgan and broad barely turned...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnfVPyfT14
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dang, this one is not going good for Pakistan.
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Yeah. the deliveries that dismissed morgan and broad barely turned...
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnfVPyfT14[/url]
He's not in the same class as your Lyons and beers though mate!It's all comparative.
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Oh dear! I've always been a fan of the DRS but that is the third or fourth time in this series that it has "upheld" an absolute shocker. There's no way that a ball brushing a fraction of the top of one bail should be LBW...
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Without DRS the umpire gave it out so either way it's out.
Excellent decision By the umpire I think. 2 inches or 2mm the ball was hitting the stumps if his pad wasn't in the way
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Talk about bad luck for bell
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You always need luck in a good innings. Poms don't seem to have any luck at all at the moment
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Got to feel for bell as looking at replays he would have got back if the keeper had taken it then stumped him
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One thing DRS is doing is educating Adnan Akmal about the LBW rule, 16 unsuccessful appeals thru DRS lol Misbah & co need to have a word
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Oh dear! I've always been a fan of the DRS but that is the third or fourth time in this series that it has "upheld" an absolute shocker. There's no way that a ball brushing a fraction of the top of one bail should be LBW...
Why not? His pad prevented the ball from hitting it, where it otherwise would have.
I see your point though, how accurate is the system really and how can it say that the ball is or is not going to just hit the stumps.
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That'll be the end of Morgan's Test career then. Shame, as he has lots of talent in the shorter forms of the game.
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That'll be the end of Morgan's Test career then. Shame, as he has lots of talent in the shorter forms of the game.
I don't agree, he will be back, not for a while though.
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how accurate is the system really and how can it say that the ball is or is not going to just hit the stumps.
as mentioned 100 times before!
this is used by the military for missile tracking!
if it wasnt the best most acurate system in the world am sure they wouldnt use it in the ariforce etc then there budget is ££££££££££££££££££££££££
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I do think the should be a hard and fast rule for how much of the ball needs to be hitting regardless of the umpires original decision.
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England is 0-6 (or 99-6) not a bad comeback from Pakistan
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Pakistan's batting line up is super shaky and England's middle order is brutal against the spinning ball. makes for addictive viewing though.
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That'll be the end of Morgan's Test career then. Shame, as he has lots of talent in the shorter forms of the game.
I reckon he might get another chance in the 2nd innings? Big prssur on the lad though, huge!
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Questions over a pitch spinning so much from Day 1?
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It's not really spinning all that much though is it? DRS and chief exec's pitches have meant that the art of playing the spinning ball has gone out of the game.
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as mentioned 100 times before!
this is used by the military for missile tracking!
if it wasn't the best most accurate system in the world am sure they wouldn't use it in the ariforce etc then there budget is ££££££££££££££££££££££££
I have never thought it was inaccurate, I was just covering my bases, lol.
What I don't understand is why a certain percentage of the ball has to be hitting the stumps for it to be overturned, as any part hitting the stumps will surely dislodge the bails. Like, 50% of the ball has to be hitting the centre of the outside stumps to be overturned, which is just ridiculous as the ball would have otherwise hit the stumps and the batsmen would be out. I could understand 50% from the outside of the stump, but it is 50% from the centre of the stump.
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It's not really spinning all that much though is it? DRS and chief exec's pitches have meant that the art of playing the spinning ball has gone out of the game.
It's spinning a long way for a day one pitch though, but I agree with you to an extent.
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England's seam bowlers bowled really well on this surface. Very disciplined.
England's batsmen where pretty reckless. Too many loose shots.
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pretty even stevens at the moment, the first 2 sessions tomorrow could decide who win this game.
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I'm going for the double tomorrow - England to lose tomorrow in the cricket followed by the rugby team losing to Scotland in the rugby. Safe as houses.
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Why not? His pad prevented the ball from hitting it, where it otherwise would have.
I see your point though, how accurate is the system really and how can it say that the ball is or is not going to just hit the stumps.
Hokay, I grew up in an era where it was assumed that the benefit of the doubt went to the batsman (because once he was gone he was, well, gone, and the bowler always had another chance) - it did sometimes get to the stage when, say, Dickie Bird was umpiring, when nothing was ever out, but for the most part this worked equally - albeit with some poor decisions made (reference the Ashes series in 2005, for example).
Now, DRS has done many good things - its revitalised spin bowling for a start - but its primary purpose was not to change the rules, but to get rid of the shocking decisions. Now, to take Pietersen's today as an example, Hawkeye showed that, at best, the last coat of spit on the leather was brushing the very edge of the bail. Benefit of the doubt, perhaps? On the screen, you could see middle and off stumps when the ball hit him and it did not in any way look out! Strauss got a similarly poor one second dig in Abu Dhabi, when the ball *might* have been partially in line and *might* have been brushing the top of the stumps - again, that to me is a stinker, no doubt about it...
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There are limitations of the DRS and I do agree about the benefit of the doubt but there are no excuses for the third umpire to make blunders like Strauss's bat pad in the last game or Hafeez's inside edge today.
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Swann batting in a cap, and Monty with a scoop. Perfect.
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Swann batting in a cap, and Monty with a scoop. Perfect.
would like to see some big hitting from swann here......
was very disappointed seeing strauss get out in that fashion, he looked to have mastered coming down the track to the spinners as well, at least he was being positive tho.....
Come on England
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would like to see some big hitting from swann here......
was very disappointed seeing strauss get out in that fashion, he looked to have mastered coming down the track to the spinners as well, at least he was being positive tho.....
Come on England
He tried, and now he's out. England with a 1st Innings lead of 42.
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If Pakistan sets a target of 150 or more it is going to be again quite interesting.
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If Pakistan sets a target of 150 or more it is going to be again quite interesting.
If Pakistan set a target of 50 or more...
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A side is bowled out for 99 against the number one team in the world. In under two sessions on the first day. Yet they are in the driving seat going into day 3. What's going on???
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For years I've been reading forums and sub continental players where often down graded as home bullies that feasted on flat pitches. I think time has come to remove that notion. Playing spin is an art.
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For years I've been reading forums and sub continental players where often down graded as home bullies that feasted on flat pitches. I think time has come to remove that notion. Playing spin is an art.
Yep; notwithstanding their so called poor overseas records, one must agree they are not alone in that.
OK-- before anyone lashes out again, India has pushed the above to a rather extreme right now...lol
Very good fightback by Pakistan. 3-0?? Mindboggling.
I wonder what Manormanic will have to say now.
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A good afternoon session by England, still a mammoth task ahead of them!!
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It is getting interesting now. These two need to be there for the next two hours and England might suddenly be in the driver's seat. Good game.
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Cook is key for me as he needs to do what Ali did then let others play round him
Nice to see kp getting out of his crease
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Cook is key for me as he needs to do what Ali did then let others play round him
Totally agree! Azhar Ali took the word patience to another level it seemed. :o
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bell and morgan now lol
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I think Morgan can make a difference by being a little aggressive. You need to show a little more intent against these spinners otherwise you will not have any chance of surviving.
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Matter of time now me thinks barring a miracle
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So what's the verdict? Why have the number 1 team in the world with the number 1 spin bowler in the world faired so poorly in a series where spin bowling has dominated by the opposition?
To be honest I think Monty outbowled Swann this series... Infact all spin bowlers out bowled Swann this series I think.. Not that Swann bowled poorly as his figures show he bowled ok.
Why have the batsmen let the team down considering they have such a talented team of batsmen? No commitment at all this series.
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80 odd with 2 wickets to go? what are the chances of a shock win?
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Zero. Unless Monty has been waiting his whole life to play one innings of note.
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yeah especially as jimmy's gone now. would have made an interesting finish. Come on Monty. show what your worth!
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Is it a good thing for GN if Monty is batting with a GN Scoop? Though I am sitting here slightly jealous he has one...
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Monty is batting well
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C'mon Monty !!!
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Is it a good thing for GN if Monty is batting with a GN Scoop? Though I am sitting here slightly jealous he has one...
It sounds lovely haha
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Crushed.
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Fair play Pakistan
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Crushed.
You or England Vic? Haha
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England don't have a clue against spin. Flogging hapless 'spinners' like Doherty and Harbhajan made England believe they could play spin. Playing turning pitches England made a journeyman like Rehman look world class.
Looking forward, England better learn how to play left arm spin and unorthodox off spin pretty sharpish, as Sri Lanka will be loaded up with Herath, Mendis and Randiv
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Looking forward, England better learn how to play left arm spin and unorthodox off spin pretty sharpish, as Sri Lanka will be loaded up with Herath, Mendis and Randiv
on a pitch which hasn't been watered since the rainy season as the sri lankan cricket board hasn't paid it's water bills...
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on a pitch which hasn't been watered since the rainy season as the sri lankan cricket board hasn't paid it's water bills...
Yep.
Bunsen burners all the way.
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People do exaggerate don't they!
England were 70 runs off in the last 2 test matches, batting last. They were in control for good chunks of that. Pakistan have probably the most potent attack in these conditions and England struggled. Things never get better overnight and it will take time to adapt. However, I doubt they will struggle against SL/India in the same way but it won't be easy.
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However, I doubt they will struggle against SL/India in the same way but it won't be easy.
Pakistan have the weakest batting lineup of PAK, SL and IND. England's bowlers all ways kept Pakistan in check.
SL are formidable at home. Guys like Sangakkara, Mahela and Samaraweera get massive scores in their conditions. SL batsmen will cover their weaker bowling line up. So Engkand will be under more pressure.
IND as well, their batsmen gave massive scores on their conditions.
England will likely be faced by scores of 450-600 range.
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SL batsmen did not give a good account of themselves against Pakistan in the UAE recently so I am not sure if they will be formidable against England and in SL the ball seams around also so England bowlers will be in with a chance.
India generally do very well at home but there is a question mark over the confidence of their batsmen and they don't have settled spinners unless they plan on playing Harbajjan.
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SL batsmen did not give a good account of themselves against Pakistan in the UAE recently so I am not sure if they will be formidable against England and in SL the ball seams around also so England bowlers will be in with a chance.
India generally do very well at home but there is a question mark over the confidence of their batsmen and they don't have settled spinners unless they plan on playing Harbajjan.
SL struggled a little a bit against Ajmal. England don't have Ajmal...
Whilst SL where disappointing against Pakistan, Sangakkara, Samaraweera and Chandimal where excellent in South Africa.
India's spin attack in home conditions was Ashwin and Ojha in their last home series. I'd suspect they would keep their places as they did pretty well. They also had R Jadeja or Rahul Sharma waiting in the wings. I think it's safe to safe Harbhajan isn't near the Test side after his dreadful performances in England.
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I think Sri Lanka were undone by Junaid Khan in the match they lost in the UAE. I have not seen these Indian spinners play. I don't know what sort of lines they ball but judging from the Pakistan series England batsman are susceptible to spinners who bowl a straightish line rather than big turners due to the lbw. Ajmal summed it up pretty well when he said his trick was to bowl the off-spinner and the doosra at pretty much the same line to create a doubt in the mind of the batsmen.
I think England should think about giving Bresnan and Finn a chance. If I were an England selector I would play Anderson, Broad, Bresnan and Swan in SriLanka and in India I would play Finn, Broad, Monty and Swan.
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I think Sri Lanka were undone by Junaid Khan in the match they lost in the UAE. I have not seen these Indian spinners play. I don't know what sort of lines they ball but judging from the Pakistan series England batsman are susceptible to spinners who bowl a straightish line rather than big turners due to the lbw. Ajmal summed it up pretty well when he said his trick was to bowl the off-spinner and the doosra at pretty much the same line to create a doubt in the mind of the batsmen.
I think England should think about giving Bresnan and Finn a chance. If I were an England selector I would play Anderson, Broad, Bresnan and Swan in SriLanka and in India I would play Finn, Broad, Monty and Swan.
With DRS in play, England would have to play 2 spinners in SL. I'd play Bresnan in place of Morgan.
In India there isn't DRS and Monty has struggled against them. Plus look at the side that does really well in India - South Africa. They only ever played 1 spinner. They bomb India with pace. Steyn averages like 10-15 per wicket. England should play 3 quicks. one of them must be Finn
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The problem is South Africa does not have any quality spinners. Also I don't expect Anderson to do much in India other than his first 5 overs with the new ball when he brings it in to the left hander. I don't think England will play 5 bowlers. I still think Morgan can have a big impact in India.
This DRS thing is a little overblown. It wont matter if there is no DRS in India. The issue is umpires are now more willing to give lbws courtesy of analyzing themselves through replays. This won't change if there is no DRS, although if you have Billy Doctrove, who never thinks its out, it might be the case.
I do not think England should play Monty in SriLanka because SriLankan batsmen are brought up on a diet of SLA bowlers and I don't remember Abdul Rehman having any impact against them.
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The problem is South Africa does not have any quality spinners. Also I don't expect Anderson to do much in India other than his first 5 overs with the new ball when he brings it in to the left hander. I don't think England will play 5 bowlers. I still think Morgan can have a big impact in India.
This DRS thing is a little overblown. It wont matter if there is no DRS in India. The issue is umpires are now more willing to give lbws courtesy of analyzing themselves through replays. This won't change if there is no DRS, although if you have Billy Doctrove, who never thinks its out, it might be the case.
I do not think England should play Monty in SriLanka because SriLankan batsmen are brought up on a diet of SLA bowlers and I don't remember Abdul Rehman having any impact against them.
I can't see 3 Seamers going well in SL though. 40-50 degrees they won't be able to bowl longer than 4 over spells.
Agreed that we don't have great spinners, but Paul Harris all ways did a decent holding job.
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Anyone thought what might have happend if Eng weren't batting last in the last 2 tests, and Strauss had won the toss?
I think the test matches were relatively close and although Eng were out played, it was not by much (70 runs in each of the final two tests)
This means that there is no need to overreact and to work better. For me the Eng batting order should be regigged - Strauss and Cook still up front, but Bell at 3, Trott at 4, KP at 5 then we have the dilemma at 6 - I think Morgan needs to play more first class cricket, Prior could bat at 6 - which allows Bresnan to play then with the remaining 4 bowlers - who were fantastic.
options for Eng at 6 other than prior - Bopara? not for me - so that means we are looking at one of the colts from the Lions then - but Taylor who is supposed to be next in line is poor against spin - and the ideal replacement, Samit Patel isn't the answer, we don't need 3 spinners... argh glad I am not a selector - of the colts we have Bairstow or Jo Root - but surely they would benefit for a bit more first class cricket too...
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Buzz i think it had more to do with English batsmen more or less surrendering at first sight of spin. The toss factor i think is sometimes overhyped. The English team did not do much better in the first test either where they had batted frst by choice. All in all, it was a fun series to follow.
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Buzz, Pakistan batting first in the last 2 tests provided a great opening for England to control the match in my opinion after Pakistan's dismal first innings batting. England should have won the second match but the third game looks closer than it actually was.
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interesting points, I still don't understand why it is so hard to play spin.
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I don't think there is much need for England to panic - rather, it ought to be motivation for them to push harder to improve. The first test was a nightmare, but they controlled large parts of the second and third games and, but for a poor collapse, an incredible partnership and maybe less than good fortune, they were well in the series.
But it has proven a lot of things; that Morgan is not yet a Test player being the obvious one. The problem is as Buzz points out, who to replace him with. Serious contenders would seem to be Patel - we all need to face that England are desperate to have him even show the merest semblance of restraint with the knife and fork because they see a spot for him - Taylor, and possibly Root. Now, for me, Root is a long way short at this stage and is really not the type of batsman you'd want at six anyway, but he's a more than useful offie and will be an excellent player in 18 months time, so may be worth a look see.
Of course, if Ben Stokes develops, he has the six spot sewn up...
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interesting points, I still don't understand why it is so hard to play spin.
Hmmm, its always hard when you're not picking the ball - that doesn't explain why Rehman, who is exactly the type of bowler who wheels away economically without causing anyone butterflies in moderate standard club cricket, suddely looked like he was bowling with a hand grenade though!
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I'll be honest and confess here, when Rehman made his debut and bursted onto international scene I used to say ''Medium fast bowler'' I never rated him high and he kept on getting A category contract and I was furious why would they do that but he has surprised me in this series and more importantly proved me wrong
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Taufeeq won't average 20.
What a precise prediction I must say his series average was 18 lol
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Its not always about spinning big and getting bounce, it is about being smart, especially when the opposition is edgy. Abdul Reman is smart and has all the weapons, spin, flight, arm balls. Calling hima club level bowler is actually nothing short of an insult. I mean that sounds more like Ashley Giles then Abdul Rehman.
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Lots of people calling for Morgan's head, but it's not as though Ian Bell has been any better
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No, Ian Bell has been just as bad. But, i think that Bell has been unlucky on a few occasions. I'm not saying for a second you can blame his hideous form on 'bad luck' but i just think that Morgan hasnt even looked like scoring a run.
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I think and I might take the flak for it Ian Bell is a bit over rated because he looks great while playing. He is clueless against spin. I think his record is inflated a little bit due to his performances against Bangladesh. If you analyze his second innings dismissal in the 2nd test although he was unlucky with the ball trickling on to the stumps, he did not pick the doosra and he only adjusted at the last minute because the ball was short.
I hope Morgan is not dropped in the test series in Sri Lanka and India because I see him as a quality player who adds that unorthodox bit of flair to the England line up. He is quick on his feet but his confidence was such that he always looked laboured.
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I think this series has shown how mentally weak the English batsmen were. For me apart from cook and trott the rest were flops. Strauss had that one fifty and pieterson showed glimpses. I think the batsman should have been a bit more positive and should have used their feet more often. Pakistan with their limited batting resources out batted England. I think the Aussies will be chomping at the bit for a go against them.
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Forgot to add prior he had a decent innings. Once again being positive pays. If you are looking to survive it will be game over. Use your feet to get to the pitch of the ball . Hit a couple over the top to spread the field . Easier said than done.
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Lots of people calling for Morgan's head, but it's not as though Ian Bell has been any better
Bell has proven himself in the past, and has a good technique.
Morgan has a bad technique and hasn't ever put in a great test shift, never stepped up to score runs when batsman are falling around him.
He scored 70 odd against india, but this is when batsman were all getting good scores.
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It would appear the limit of Morgans test talent is playing low quality spin on flat pitches.
Oh dear.
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Shows how important building partnerships are as Azhar & Younis batted superbly together but then wickets fallen in clusters, just england didnt ever get really good partnerships going.
Also have England not prepared for these pitches prep based on slow turners not pitch where skids through ? + pakistan spinners bowl are quite a pace.
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In 2010 Morgan scored his maiden test century batting at no.6 coming to the wicket at 118-4, so he has dug in and scored runs when they've really mattered before.
I just think he's under prepared having spent several months injured I feel he lacks match practice.
That said, would love to see prior at 6 & Bresnan at 7, but can't see the management team picking an extra bowler when it's our batting that's letting us down
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The best players adapt to the situation. I recently spent quite some time with Mushtaq Mohammad former Pakistan coach. I asked him what he looks for in a player. He said someone who plays the situation.
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can't drop Bell fter a bad series, he's been wonderful past couple of years.
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Although Pietersen, Bell & Morgan have had shockers, the reality is that on subcontinental pitches all our batsmen struggle.
It is worth noting in the last month England Lions lost to Bangladesh 'A' 3-2 in ODIs & England U-19 lost to Bangladesh U-19 5-2 in ODIs. If that was the senior team, there'd be a bigger witch-hunt than the current test losses have provided.
A middle-order change (or play Prior 6, Bresnan 7) has to happen before the next test as the next incumbent cannot do any worse. I'd drop Morgan, as although he averaged more than Bell & KP (a whopping 13!) he looked clueless and doesn't have the bank of test runs the others have.
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The Ajmal story which has sparked off some interest:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/current/story/552462.html
Ajmal comment sparks action confusion
Saeed Ajmal, Man of the Series as Pakistan whitewashed England 3-0 in the UAE, sparked confusion over his bowling action by giving an interview in which he appeared to claim that he has special dispensation to exceed the limit currently permitted by the ICC. However, it later emerged that Ajmal has an abnormally natural bent arm similar to Muttiah Muralitharan although the exact degrees involved remained unclear.
In the interview with the BBC, Ajmal volunteered the belief that the ICC had allowed him 23.5 degrees to compensate for an accident in which he injured his arm. The ICC, however, were quick to reject the suggestion.
Ajmal said: "Someone is telling me my action is bad because the ICC allowed me as a bowler 23.5 degrees, because my arm is not good. A few years ago I had an accident. Otherwise, no problem, the action was cleared by ICC."
An ICC spokeman denied that was the case. "There is no dispensation for anyone," he said. "It is worth remembering that his first language is not English and this may have been a slip of the tongue."
David Richardson, the ICC's general manager of cricket, confirmed that Ajmal's arm is not naturally straight and that Ajmal's action does not fall outside the 15-degree tolerance limit.
"There is a big difference between the 'elbow carry angle' (elbow abduction) and the degree of elbow extension," he said. "There is nothing preventing a bowler bowling with a bent arm, provided he does not straighten it beyond the permitted degrees of tolerance."
In an interview on the ICC website, Richardson added: "In Saeed Ajmal's case he has a 15-degree angle of elbow abduction."
The PCB issued a statement attempting to clarify the situation although their claim that Ajmal's elbow has a natural angle of 23 degrees didn't match Richardson's explanation that it was 15 degrees, which also happens to be the ICC's tolerance limit.
"The ICC's level of tolerance of 15 degrees relates to the degree of elbow extension that is permitted in the bowling action, ie. the amount by which the arm is straightening," Pakistan team manager Naveed Akram Cheema said. "Previous tests conducted on the action of Saeed Ajmal show that the degree of elbow extension is well within ICC's tolerance levels."
"Saeed Ajmal was referring to the angle of elbow abduction, ie. the angle of the upper arm to the forearm and not the degree of elbow extension. This angle is approximately 23 degrees in Saeed's case.
Ajmal tormented the England batsmen in all three Tests, claiming 24 wickets in the series at an average of just 14.7. Their inability to distinguish between his off-break and doosra caused particular confusion and vastly reduced the effectiveness of England's much-vaunted middle order. Ian Bell, Eoin Morgan and Kevin Pietersen all failed to average more than 13.
While Bob Willis, the former England captain turned pundit, had raised concerns about Ajmal's action at the start of the series, the England team have been reluctant to be dragged into any controversy. Consequently, they have stuck to the line that it is job of the umpires and the ICC to scrutinise bowlers' actions.
However, Andy Flower, the England coach, expressed his surprise after being told of Ajmal's remarks. "If that's the degree, then there's a problem," Flower said. "That's ridiculous.
"That is an ICC issue, though. They are there to police the game, and make sure that it is played within the rules, so they've got to scrutinise his action. We've all got our own views, but our job is to combat whoever is put against us, and part of it is also to play the game in the right spirit."
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It was just a case of Ajmal's poor English. The BBC reporter took little note of it but the media will have a field day!
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Him and Botha both have disgraceful actions, being cleared under test conditions means nothing when they are both in the middle.
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Botha's is much worse than Ajmal's ...
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A throw is a throw.
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here you go BIGBOY http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/current/story/552579.html
I'd love to see the look on Bob Willis'es face.
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Interesting game coming up tomorrow. Perhaps Pakistan's toughest game so far...
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Interesting game coming up tomorrow. Perhaps Pakistan's toughest game so far...
Like.... definitely Pakistan's most important game so far!
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so much for the explosive start from kp. 2 off 11 balls! lets hope he gets going soon.
why is bopara at 4?
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Boom...Boom....:(
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Time for the essex boys to do it for england
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yeah 2 in 2 isnt ideal. hope Cook does well but part of me hopes bopara doesnt. dont think he deserves his place. if Buttler was fit do we think he would have played?
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yeah 2 in 2 isnt ideal. hope Cook does well but part of me hopes bopara doesnt. dont think he deserves his place. if Buttler was fit do we think he would have played?
He is in form so for me it was a no brainer. Split webbing keeping him out I bet he's gutted!!
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yeah id love to see him in there. would he play instead of bopara tho or maybe morgan or does patel warrant a place?
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yeah id love to see him in there. would he play instead of bopara tho or maybe morgan or does patel warrant a place?
patel was our best player of spin in India and we need 5 bowlers hence why he is playing. buttler would have played if fit.
ravi bop has a huge opportunity to show what he can do here...
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patel was our best player of spin in India and we need 5 bowlers hence why he is playing. buttler would have played if fit.
ravi bop has a huge opportunity to show what he can do here...
Buttler instead of who then Mr Buzz?
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So, Ravi bop using an SS.
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That helmet bopara has on, is horrible. Sorry if there is anyone on here who has one, but they look hideous
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So, Ravi bop using an SS.
His efforts to cover up the branding looks better than previous attempts but hes left the SS grip on.....Doh!?!?
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Cooks bat sounds lovely
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Great inside edge catch by Kieswetter
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Finn on Fire !!!!
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Finn on Fire !!!!
And he was not in Englands test team wow!
:facepalm:
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And he was not in Englands test team wow!
:facepalm:
To be fair, it was never our bowlers who let us down, just look at the stats! Broad, Anderson, Monty, Swann were fantastic, not their faults we lost!
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True, I agree but Andrerson was not upto his level in test series if I'm not mistaken
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I really hope Shoaib Malik gets a few runs today. I've all ways rated this guy, but Pakistani management doesn't feel the same.
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^LOL, what are you talking about bruv?
That guy should be discarded and thrown out of Earth, let him play cricket on Mars if it is played there haha
He is pathetic now, pathetic!! LOL
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^LOL, what are you talking about bruv?
That guy should be discarded and thrown out of Earth, let him play cricket on Mars if it is played there haha
He is pathetic now, pathetic!! LOL
He has 5000+ runs with 7 hundreds. Also throw in 150+ wickets...
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No Instinct for Riaz :o
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Pakistan's problem is that the batting is top heavy. Hafeez, Farhat, Younus and Misbah are the experienced and proper batsmen.
Look at the series against India, England often took early wickets, but India had more firepower in the lower middle order
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Johnny, Instinct deal was for county only if I'm not mistaken although it seems he is wearing Instinct pads.
Basket Case, since Malik has been removed as a captain he has become worst, only good innings was in Champions Trophy against India thats it. Now he is past his prime it is chance for a youngster to make way.
Funny how you call Farhat as a ''proper batsman'/
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Seriously.. Malik used to be a very good bat and handy spin bowler.. He got out today on a full toss..
where is Mohammad Wasim? is he retired? Pakistan needs more stable batsman like Younis khan and Misbah.. I feel they have too many aggressive players..
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Malik was very good few years ago but now has lost everything really.
Mohammad Wasim is long gone.
One of the reason Misbah had Malik was to have a stable middle order and bonus in spin but unfortunately in both department he let it down.
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Azhar Ali should be back.. they really don't need spin bowler I guess.. they have ajmal, Hafeez and Afridi..
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I still would much prefer the loom of an England line-up that doesn't include Samit Fatel! The bloke is the epitome of average!
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Does the grip on Ravi's GM remind anyone of an SS grip?
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I think it has been estabilished that Ravi is using an SS bat which he has put GM stickers on. but hasn't changed the grip...
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If your going to do something wrong then you might as well do it right! Get unbranded SS bats and put a GM grip on them!
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If your going to do something wrong then you might as well do it right! Get unbranded SS bats and put a GM grip on them!
One like.
Probably doesn't bother him though! At least if your not honouring your contract with GM, you should do your best to cover up the blade your using. Mind it's probably only us on here who notice the little details about grips
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Either way, he's using the bat well at the moment! Better than Pietersen.
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haha I missed his dismissal how was he out today?
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LBW to Ajmal!
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Another class knock by Cook. Bopara is finally playing well at the international level, I'm pleased for him :)
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Funny how Shahid Afridi is using an SS bat are Boom Boom bats not good enough for Boom Boom himself.
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Funny how Shahid Afridi is using an SS bat are Boom Boom bats not good enough for Boom Boom himself.
Apparently Boom Boom bats are also made by SS, I think Mike Talisman said this on forums a while ago.
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what a catch!
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Quite a turn around from England, they are quite good ODI side, or I must say a better side in ODI than test matches?
Once again Pakistani batsman are themselves to blame in this game.
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I thought he would not get to it and was amazed he took it. One of the best catches ive seen by a keeper running back
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Well deserved victory by England, really the more I watch Steven Finn the more I buffle at England for not playing him in Test Matches.
I'm sure he would have made a significant impact there.
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Quite a turn around from England, they are quite good ODI side, or I must say a better side in ODI than test matches?
Once again Pakistani batsman are themselves to blame in this game.
Certainly not! If you look at their ODI record its pretty horrendous.
Misbah's ODI captaincy has been pretty suspect. I think he missed a trick today with playing so many spinners. He could have crampt them and packed a very close in field like in the test matches.
Will be interesting to see what happens if England have to bat under lights in the following two games..
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This series has massively changed my views on who should be in the ODI team. I used to think Pietersen, Morgan, Kieswetter and Trott were definite selections however none of them have done much with the bat. On the other hand I didn't think that Cook, Bopara or Finn were right for the ODI yet they have all done superbly.
Trott had a brilliant year last year and this is just a blip so he isn't going to lose his place, Kieswetter might lose his place to Davies(or Prior) but he is also fairly safe. Pietersen and Morgan however are both playing for their places, they are both living on their reputations and if neither of them perform then I could see them both being removed from the team.
My ideal England team would be:
Cook, Kieswetter, Trott, Bopara, Morgan, Buttler, Patel, Bresnan, Broad, Swann, Finn
Kieswetter to start the innings off with a bang, Cook, Trott and Bopara to bat for around 35 overs then for those final 15 overs we have Morgan, Buttler, Patel, Bresnan, Broad and sWann who can all hit the ball around and go at a minimum of 8 an over.
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Interesting post by GJ.
Misbah is not getting proper team combination and I think two players which don't deserve to be in the side are Shoaib Malik and Imran Farhat.
I'd open with Asad Shafiq and have Azhar Ali, Younis, Misbah and Umar in middle order really. I'd also play a specialist wicket keeper, Umar Akmal is not an answer, his batting is being affected by his wicket keeping.
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Umar Akmal is being affected by the fact he's an Akmal.
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I couldn't believe they dropped Asad Shafiq, he looks a very classy bat. Pak need to move on from Taufeeq and Farhat don't you think??
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This one day series is a battle between to journeymen(using boxing terms). Pakistan's mediocre batting is making England look a decent ODI side, unfortunately they aren't. Just look at the 5-0 drubbing they received in India. England will remain a poor ODI side until they can get scores closer to 280+ regularly. If this series was against India or Sri Lanka scores of 250-260 would result in an easy run chase.
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England are carrying too many passengers at the moment. The following changes are needed I think
Bairstow in for Pietersen
Buttler in for Morgan
Bresnan in for Anderson
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yup drop our three most talented players. really good plan.
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England are carrying too many passengers at the moment. The following changes are needed I think
Bairstow in for Pietersen
Buttler in for Morgan
Bresnan in for Anderson
Are you serious? All Pietersen needs is to be down the order. Make Kieswetter open with Cook. Keep Anderson as well, one of the best bowlers in the world.
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Are you serious? All Pietersen needs is to be down the order. Make Kieswetter open with Cook. Keep Anderson as well, one of the best bowlers in the world.
So what you're essentially saying is let kieswetter take the hit, fail at opening and get dropped? He has had one(?) good innings opening. Pietersen should be there and wants to be there.
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Pietersen is opening to get England off to a good start. 14 off 36 and 26 off 46 is not exactly what England have wanted.
Morgan has been in poor form for a while now and needs to go back to the county scene for a while and get his form back like Bell did not so long ago
Maybe being abit harsh on Anderson but he has never been great in the sub continent with the white ball and I think Bresnan is a better like for like bowler in these conditions
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I couldn't believe they dropped Asad Shafiq, he looks a very classy bat. Pak need to move on from Taufeeq and Farhat don't you think??
Definitely, add Shoaib Malik as well
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Pak need to sort there batting out big time apart from Younis Khan no one seems like scoring the tons required just look at the difference Cook's ton's made
Lets be honest Hafeez, Farhat, Azhar Ali, Misbah ul haq aren't really gonna send shivers down the oppos back
Umar Akmal needs to be higher in the order, guy cant keep so why bother, pick his brother Kamran he can open and keep done it in the past and well especially against Eng from what I remember
What happened to Ahmed Shehzad the guy had amazing talent just needed a run did well in New zealand had a poor world cup and dropped
Farhat only in the team because his father in law is ON the selection committee cant field either yet alone bat with his one cover drive here and there
Asad shafiq did well batting lower down the order probably needs to return there
Cant be bothered with starting on the tail lol
Plus Shoaib malik is finished now not the player he was after he lost the captaincy and got married should stick to tennis
Rehman stick to tests against Eng in sub cont conditions
Bowlers haven't had world class seamers since Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib
You could add Amir and asif to that list but we know what happened to them
Is Gul really up to the mark ??
Cheema too predictable and old
Junaid Khan no confidence being in out the team
Wahab Riaz my clubs u-9s bowl better well with better direction anyone
Pak will beat the likes of WI, SRI LANKA, BANGLADESH, ZIMABABWE and maybe now and then INDIA
But can they really compete with AUS, SA AND ENG not for a while in my opinion
Apologies for Rant bit early in the morn
Hope Eng win 4-0 got good odds at the bookies lol
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I once saw Fawad Alam play for a Pakistan XI down Taunton, looked a very good player and the ton I believe he scored a very good ton. He used to be in and around the setup of the Pakistan One Day Squad, can some tell me what happened with him?
Like I said I thought he looked a very good player and a huge prospect for the ODI Team of Pakistan.
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Pak need to sort there batting out big time apart from Younis Khan no one seems like scoring the tons required just look at the difference Cook's ton's made
Lets be honest Hafeez, Farhat, Azhar Ali, Misbah ul haq aren't really gonna send shivers down the oppos back
Umar Akmal needs to be higher in the order, guy cant keep so why bother, pick his brother Kamran he can open and keep done it in the past and well especially against Eng from what I remember
What happened to Ahmed Shehzad the guy had amazing talent just needed a run did well in New zealand had a poor world cup and dropped
Farhat only in the team because his father in law is ON the selection committee cant field either yet alone bat with his one cover drive here and there
Asad shafiq did well batting lower down the order probably needs to return there
Cant be bothered with starting on the tail lol
Plus Shoaib malik is finished now not the player he was after he lost the captaincy and got married should stick to tennis
Rehman stick to tests against Eng in sub cont conditions
Bowlers haven't had world class seamers since Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib
You could add Amir and asif to that list but we know what happened to them
Is Gul really up to the mark ??
Cheema too predictable and old
Junaid Khan no confidence being in out the team
Wahab Riaz my clubs u-9s bowl better well with better direction anyone
Pak will beat the likes of WI, SRI LANKA, BANGLADESH, ZIMABABWE and maybe now and then INDIA
But can they really compete with AUS, SA AND ENG not for a while in my opinion
Apologies for Rant bit early in the morn
Hope Eng win 4-0 got good odds at the bookies lol
Ahmed Shahzad is a very good prospect but his attitude is what keeps him out of the side. His performances are good but his attitude is keeping him out of side.
Nasir Jamshed is another opener, he is left hander and he is quite good player! has solid technique and bats well, has been scoring loads of runs in BPL. He should be opener in ODI and even test matches.
Asad Shafiq is a very good player of number three and management should just stick with him at number 3. In ODIs Asad won't work well down the order.
Junaid Khan is a good bowler, again if they keep on playing him he will turn out to be a good bowler.
Hammad Azam is a good all rounder, he should be in the team.
Last but not least they need to play a specialist keeper!!
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Ahmed Shahzad is a very good prospect but his attitude is what keeps him out of the side. His performances are good but his attitude is keeping him out of side.
Nasir Jamshed is another opener, he is left hander and he is quite good player! has solid technique and bats well, has been scoring loads of runs in BPL. He should be opener in ODI and even test matches.
Asad Shafiq is a very good player of number three and management should just stick with him at number 3. In ODIs Asad won't work well down the order.
Junaid Khan is a good bowler, again if they keep on playing him he will turn out to be a good bowler.
Hammad Azam is a good all rounder, he should be in the team.
Last but not least they need to play a specialist keeper!!
So if Pak have all this talent then why not play them look at the strike rates of Farhat, Azhar Ali, Misbah and to a certain extent Younis Khan cant leave it all to Umar Akmal and Afridi all the time
Pak do really well in T20 cricket so why the batting flop in ODI's
Like I said in that order how many ODI hundreds are they ??
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BRING BACK INZI
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BRING BACK INZI
Since we are bringing back players Mohammad Yousuf would probably walk into most teams ?????????
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So if Pak have all this talent then why not play them look at the strike rates of Farhat, Azhar Ali, Misbah and to a certain extent Younis Khan cant leave it all to Umar Akmal and Afridi all the time
Pak do really well in T20 cricket so why the batting flop in ODI's
Like I said in that order how many ODI hundreds are they ??
Farhat and Malik are cancer for Pakistan team!
Misbah is slow and not good but then who will you make captain? Younis won't take captacincy.
YK has 6 and apart from that one or two guys have 1-2 or 3 centuries.
Misbah averages over 40s and has more than 2500 runs but don't have any century yet.
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That is a surprise!! Had no idea....
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None of it even matters. Pakistan's domestic circuit is so poor, players lose talent as they play more first class cricket. If it were up to me, I'd take my top 12 batting prospects and send them to England, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa for a season or two.
The reality of it is such that the PCB has the collective IQ of a gofer and nobody is willing to scrap the entire board. I'd gladly do it but therein lies the issue of me not being the president of Pakistan (I'm far too intelligent and educated to hold that post).
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Think about it this way Riz.
Majority of Asian batsman struggle when they play in bowling friendly conditions because of batting heaven pitches in Asian. However, Australia and England having worlds best set up when there players go to Asia they can't play spin there.
So you see a similarity?
However, I'm not disagreeing with you. I definitely agree with it.
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Think about it this way Riz.
Majority of Asian batsman struggle when they play in bowling friendly conditions because of batting heaven pitches in Asian. However, Australia and England having worlds best set up when there players go to Asia they can't play spin there.
So you see a similarity?
However, I'm not disagreeing with you. I definitely agree with it.
I totally agree, the English batsman have been a complete failure against spin for example. I guess playing more cricket abroad would make Pakistani batsmen a little more complete in the sense that they're already decent players of spin and they'd gain valuable experience in playing quality pace bowling.
The other option is just to work on developing Pakistani pitches in a way that's conducive to fast bowling (ie. prepare grassy, bouncy pitches)
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I totally agree, the English batsman have been a complete failure against spin for example. I guess playing more cricket abroad would make Pakistani batsmen a little more complete in the sense that they're already decent players of spin and they'd gain valuable experience in playing quality pace bowling.
The other option is just to work on developing Pakistani pitches in a way that's conducive to fast bowling (ie. prepare grassy, bouncy pitches)
Not too long ago PCB barred players from going to county, I think if they get a county offer that should be accepted right away (talking about young players like Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq, Umar Akmal, Junaid Khan etc).
Gree, pitches, that complain has been going for ages but PCB is not taking a note of it I guess :(
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I feel that KP needs runs today! Hasn't done much all series, needs at least a 50
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I feel that KP needs runs today! Hasn't done much all series, needs at least a 50
He's looking positive, using his feet to every delivery, and his first runs being off a fine shot backwards of square. I tip him to make runs today.
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*every spin delivery
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He looks far better today, his intent in the first over was good!
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He looks far better today, his intent in the first over was good!
Wilkie, reply to my PM
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Wow, sneaky move from the keeper there.
I wouldn't want to be in his position with the huge frame of Kev in his face!
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I wana see KP use the switch hit again :D, that hasn't been out for a while has it?
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I was just thinking that! hope we'll see that later after the shot he just played!
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good job Kp wasn't dropped.
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Credit where it's due. He pulled it out of the bag today. Can't believe it was 2008 his last one day ton. Wonder if other such high profile players have had so long between hundreds in one days
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I think Ganguly never had a one day ton in his last 100 innings even though he crossed fifty a lot of times.
Good win for England.
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Didn't Nasir Jamshed get into trouble with the old Bill for getting someone to take his Maths exams for him?
Plank.
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Buttler and Briggs making their debuts today!
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Exciting stuff, 2 talented young cricketers.
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It gives them experience in a no-pressure match!
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Pakistan with only 1 seamer in their starting line up!
They've got 5 spinners though ;)
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Bit strange for a team that relies a lot on it's bowlers
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No footwork at all from Hafeez :(
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Bit strange for a team that relies a lot on it's bowlers
Umar Gul has been poor in this series though, very disappointing! Expected a lot from him.
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God Briggs is not an international player yet - dirty filthy darts
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How much of an idiot does Umar Akmal look with those offensive green lips? :|
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How much of an idiot does Umar Akmal look with those offensive green lips? :|
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God Briggs is not an international player yet - dirty filthy darts
Get Kegsy in there!
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Monty?
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That 100 seems to have done pieterson some good
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Ohh Jos! :(
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gutted for him. he is a big enough talent to come back from it and score big
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At least Pietersen is going well for us, just hoping he'll carry on with it and no do anything stupid.
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13 needed off the last over of the tour...
Afridi vs Durnbach... humm.
money on the batsmen!
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6 needed of the last ball then... :o
BOWLED IIMMMMMM
:D
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How crucial was KP's six off the last ball!!
of Eng innings, great stuff from Dernbach. I think Umar Akmal should take responsibility not Misbah. If Umar was English we would be destroying him right now.
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What a finish!