Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Sam on May 20, 2014, 05:15:44 PM
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Interesting start here then. Gurney and Carberry make Int T20 debuts and Gurney bowled a decent over to start with. Woakes shouldnt be playing any white ball cricket for England in my opinion.
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Woakes not good enough with bat or ball.
Interesting recall for bell, should have played in the WC
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Pretty poor bowling to perera. Full tosses and half volleys.
New death bowlers, same old story. Shocking over from Jordan
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Hopefully the slightly better batting lineup in comparison will make up for it.
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A couple of thoughts on today's game -
The Sri Lankan spinner - Seriously?!?! Is that action legal? It's just looks wrong on every level. To the untrained eye of a clubbie, it just looks like a chuck.
Secondly, big piece of wood old Jordans was swinging - cheeky little MIDS branding on the sides :) Hope he bowls well today, I'd like him in the test side.
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To the trained eye of a qualified umpire (me) it looks like a chuck. There is a reason for that...
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Two questions
What's the point of Ravi Bopara? His batting is way overrated. His bowling is dreadful. He struts around as if he's the new IVA Richards.
And is Buttler really a consideration for the Test side? His wicketkeeping is damn awful...surely Kieswetter should be next in line.
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Ravi is the one of the best finishers in World cricket. Finisher of what, not so sure.
Buttler ain't that bad and Kieswetter isn't that much better either. I'm confident it will be Prior if fit. If you want pure wicketkeeping, you'd put Foster streets ahead of Buttler and Kiessy.
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Two questions
What's the point of Ravi Bopara? His batting is way overrated. His bowling is dreadful. He struts around as if he's the new IVA Richards.
And is Buttler really a consideration for the Test side? His wicketkeeping is damn awful...surely Kieswetter should be next in line.
King ravi. Nothing more needs to be said.
Buttler needs to improve, but with the bat i feel he could do a gilchrist esque role. Take games away from oppo. But i fear hes not ready yet.
steve davies seems to have retired from stumping at the wrong time.
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He's got 3 wickets tonight, but is anyone else concerned about Tredwell?
He doesn't seem to be that threatening and is certainly going for a lot of runs recently.
I believe he's out of the Kent side at the moment due to loss of form / confidence - is he the best ODI spinning prospect we have?
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Batting.
What do people think to our batting performance? 247 wasn't a bad effort from 39overs after the slow start(thinking there playing 50) bell, root, ballance should have really kicked on for a ton though,
Nice to watch England have a play like Jordan than can just muller it too.
I'd still prefer an attacking approach in the power play. Hales for cook!
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Bell - need I say more
Root - starting to live up to his promise without making a big score
Ballance - looking more comfortable at this level
Gurney - will be interesting how he progresses
Tredwell - needs to be replaced in my opinion
Jordan - genuinely excited by him, test side soon?
Who got man of the match by the way?? (Jordan for me)
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Jordan was man of the match,
Feel sorry for root, not just test but Odis and t20 s now he gets shuffled about.
He can score fast and hit sixes(not many in the ipl hit Malinga out of the ground) yet he always gets dropped down the order.
Upping Morgan failed today!
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He's got 3 wickets tonight, but is anyone else concerned about Tredwell?
He doesn't seem to be that threatening and is certainly going for a lot of runs recently.
I believe he's out of the Kent side at the moment due to loss of form / confidence - is he the best ODI spinning prospect we have?
Sums up the problem with the English spin cupboard at the minute, bare at the highest level.
Tredwell will do a job most days, but what other viable option is there really? Do England have a wicket taking, match winning spinner?
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Yes, and his name is Simon bloody Kerrigan! But if you do insist we head down this far too trodden path...
Ollie Rayner had a stormer last year. Yes, unfancied, but you don't take a 15-fer unless you're doing something really right!
Adil Rashid really, REALLY needs to be persisted with, and actually used as a bowler.
Jigar Naik takes wickets at a really unfancied county, and never really disappoints.
Adam Riley - is definitely coming on as a bowler. A bit far off at the moment, but there is always the possibility.
Monty is always worth a talk about, and certain other spinners seem to go under the radar. David Wainwright, for one. But I'll stick my neck out and say Kerrigan will go the distance with England. Excellent prospect, excellent record!
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Tredwell will do a job most days,
This is my problem - I don't think Tredders is doing a job at the moment. He got battered by the aussies, and every game I've seen him in, he seem's to bet a shoeing.
I thought we were starting something new with the trio we used in the Windies - Root, Parry and Ali - what happened to that plan?
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We know the Sri Lankans can play spin quite well, so I think it would have been an ideal test-bed for Ali to bowl!
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Briggs played 1 ODi for England and took 2-39 in 10 overs and was then dropped. He has been a consistent bowler in the shorter formats at county level so is surely worth another look at in that department?
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Carberry in for Cook in this game as he apparently has a small injury. Morgan captains however the forecast looks very worrying.
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Is Carberry in to keep the left hand - right hand partnership at the top of the order?
As much as I rate Carbs I think Hales would be a better option for England. What's the lad got to do to get a game??
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I think this series is more or less going to be the final tester for Carberry in one day cricket given his age. He's got to transfer his county form into international cricket.
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If helmet regulations hit pro cricket, Priyanjan might be upset, never seen such a gap between grill and peak!
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Bell wearing the new Masuri with the old grill?
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Should have been hales.
Carberry fails again in an england shirt. Great county play. Just doesnt look like he can cut it at int level.
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Horrible batting so far. Poor shot by bell, Root playing back to that ball and balance plumb.
No chance of getting close to that score now
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I wonder if root ever gets mentally prepared for an innings seeing as he has no idea where hes batting every game.
Can just imagine he sits there in pads and coach is saying "not yet.....not yet...... go!!!!"
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just embarrassing from England. Doesn't help when you have a spinner obviously chucking it
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Can't decide who chucks it more out of Ajmal and Sanan... (however you spell it)
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A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler's arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.
- The ICC regulations set this with a 15 degrees leeway.
I don't see quite how people can measure whether his arm changes by 15 degrees from when his arm reaches the level of his shoulder to when he released the ball as that is what understand this to mean, especially from the angles tv replays offer where you can't what angle the arm itself is at therefore making it deceptive.
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(http://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o678/Kieron_BT/Mobile%20Uploads/20140525_161716_zpsqvhlbnbd.jpg)
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It only gets worse from this point onwards until it's straight on release.
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Would it be possible to get a picture when he's releasing the ball from the same angle (defined by the ICC as the first frame where the ball is visually not touching the hand) as that's the only way you can judge whether he's chucking? Even then you can't be sure due to the deceptive camera angles but it would still be interesting for us to try and analyse on here.
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Turned over now so can't rewind unfortunately. Anyone got it recorded to see how long they showed the LBW review?
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Can't decide who chucks it more out of Ajmal and Sanan... (however you spell it)
without doubt a worse action than ajmal
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It is a god awful chuck. God only knows how the ICC haven't seen that as worthy of investigating yet! Something else that needs investigating is England's batting, there was literally no intent for any of the batsman to look to score or move their innings along at any point whatsoever. Kulasekara bowled beautifully as he does nowadays, but so many nothing shots, no rotating the strike on a tough wicket. No batsman looked like they knew what sport they were playing!
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Will England be investigated for match fixing soon??
They can't genuinely be that bad, can they??
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Bumble was saying that there is a process that has to be taken.
The first is several umpires questioning the action to the relevant body.
Would love to know the rest of the process.
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Don't know how to take it off their Facebook but good video of Hales in the nets for England.
Starts off using a Ton as well
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cook back in for carberry.
we won the toss and chose to bowl again.
same old boring england side, and after such a big hiding last time, suprised we are chasing again
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Root getting treatment on his hand from the physio, due a score now??
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England looking a lot sharper today.
Good news i'm off work so get to watch it, almost making up for my game being off
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Jordan pick of the bowlers for England.
Tredwell looking something like his old self again today.
Sri Lanka 65-9
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Chris Jordan gets his Michelle, Sri Lanka 67 all out.
Over to the batsman.
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Well!
Have the tables turned?
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Anyone see the comment on BBC Sport earlier? If England have had won this series 5-0 it would have put them back to number 1 in the ODI rankings.
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I've stuck £20 on Bell to top score at 15/8, seemed like printing money until I clicked place bet!
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Anyone see the comment on BBC Sport earlier? If England have had won this series 5-0 it would have put them back to number 1 in the ODI rankings.
Shows what a load of male bovine excrement the ranking system is!
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Since when were we ever top of the odi rankings previously?
Tests yes
T20s yes(and world champs)
But we've always rested players and been generally rubbish at the 50overs malarky
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Since when were we ever top of the odi rankings previously?
Tests yes
T20s yes(and world champs)
But we've always rested players and been generally rubbish at the 50overs malarky
I think as recently as last summer we topped the ODI rankings. Not sure how though!
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http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/19185902 (http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/19185902)
Two summers ago even, doesn't seem that long ago!
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I really can't remember that. Lol
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I really can't remember that. Lol
I can only remember it because we were the est team in the world full stop at the time.
Didn't last long though haha
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So England win the 50 over ODI in fewer overs than are played in total in a T20. :o Never thought I'd see that against Sri Lanka.
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Sri Lanka were never keen on a cold day in Manchester lol. England should play all cricket in cold damp conditions, plenty of sides will fold. Windies folded by an innings when it was bitterly cold at headingley a few years ago.
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Can't wait to read how good England are.. How they are on the road to redemption etc
It was a cold.. Crappy day and the SL guys weren't interested. End of
I wonder what the betting patterns were like ??
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Can't wait to read how good England are.. How they are on the road to redemption etc
It was a cold.. Crappy day and the SL guys weren't interested. End of
I wonder what the betting patterns were like ??
That had occurred to me too. ..
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Ouch! This is looking ominous - how many do we think Sri Lanka are going to get?
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Strange old series this one.
One side dominates.
Then the other battles back
And so forth
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Very good effort from Buttler to nearly get us there but I still feel we need more aggression in the top order, especially if we keep Bell and Cook opening. I've always been tempted to move Bopara up like he requested to be but if not someone else would have to come in. Hales is the obvious choice if he can transfer his T20 form into the ODI's, otherwise perhaps Moeen Ali or James Vince?
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Gutted I turned the game off just as Buttler came in! Thought it was all over, missed a great knock. Top order all wrong though. Don't see how you can have a top 4 without a gun hitter as they are all far too similar at present. Ali, Hales, Kieswetter or Carberry could do this, or Morgan has to bat at 3.
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Why bother with carbs? He's proven he's not up to international...
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who has Hales upset?
I don't understand why he isn't being picked.
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Why bother with carbs? He's proven he's not up to international...
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Would like to have seen him given a good run where he knew his place was secure. We might have seen the best of him then, but I fear he won't get another chance.
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Hales just seems to be focused on by a T20 batsmen by the selectors which I guess is understandable by the fact his record isn't that great for OD's, however I feel he's certainly worth a shot to see if he can do it. Morgan at 3 sounds the best option to me, he did it for Middlesex and went big in the T20 and he seems a very versatile player who could just slot in there, also allows Ballance to bat further down the order like he would for Yorkshire. I still think Vince would be a good bet this season ;).
Carberry I think needs a bit more time back in county cricket to regain the form he had last season however unfortunately I can't see a space being left for him once he's regained it.
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Why on earth did tredwell run butler out? 9 from two was still ont he cards for a win from a guy on 121!
Baffling.
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^ Tredwell should have sacrificed his wicket and ran back to the danger end to save Butler, I remember Kulasekara did the same when he and Sangakkara were batting in champions trophy last year against England.
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How can Jos be MoM. Bizzarreeee...
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How can Jos be MoM. Bizzarreeee...
because without his innings the game would have been massively one sided, he made a game of the chase.
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How can Jos be MoM. Bizzarreeee...
Because he was the best player on the day!
Without his knock the game would have been over much quicker and a lot of people left disappointed.
MoM doesn't always have to be on the winning team...
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Because he was the best player on the day!
Without his knock the game would have been over much quicker and a lot of people left disappointed.
MoM doesn't always have to be on the winning team...
What if Sanga hadn't played that inning, wouldnt that have been a quick win for England and a one sided affair and left people disappointed and ....
Whose batting was more elegant and class? Didnt he entertain enough?
SL had lost an early wicket when he came in and playing in English conditions...
That was classic knock by the veteran.... More inspirational and technical for those young kids and grown ups watching...
So many reasons to argue.
Anyways... I didnt make that comment because I think MoM should be always from winning team only! That was critical, classic inning at tough time in different conditions which built a platform for a defendable target and an exciting game of cricket. Without which it would not have been fun...
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I could take 10 wickets and score 100+ but still be on the losing side. Would be unfair to say I cannot be man of the match just because my team didn't win.
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What if Sanga hadn't played that inning, wouldnt that have been a quick win for England and a one sided affair and left people disappointed and ....
Whose batting was more elegant and class? Didnt he entertain enough?
SL had lost an early wicket when he came in and playing in English conditions...
That was classic knock by the veteran.... More inspirational and technical for those young kids and grown ups watching...
So many reasons to argue.
Anyways... I didnt make that comment because I think MoM should be always from winning team only! That was critical, classic inning at tough time in different conditions which built a platform for a defendable target and an exciting game of cricket. Without which it would not have been fun...
I think we can argue if sanga failed then there was a chance of some other top order batsman to get settled and get SL to a decent score, if butler failed then ENG didn't have any batters left so it would have been a one sided affair, it was a breath taking innings against the odds from Butler so he deserved it.
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Thanks to the others who saw sense, I can't be bothered trying to explain the obvious tonight!
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Senananyake reported for suspected illegal bowling action
Sri Lanka off-spinner Sachithra Senanayake has been reported with a suspected illegal bowling action during his side's seven runs victory over England in the fourth One-Day International at Lords on Saturday.
http://www.icc-cricket.com/news/2014/media-releases/80484/senananyake-reported-for-suspected-illegal-bowling-action (http://www.icc-cricket.com/news/2014/media-releases/80484/senananyake-reported-for-suspected-illegal-bowling-action)
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Senananyake reported for suspected illegal bowling action
Sri Lanka off-spinner Sachithra Senanayake has been reported with a suspected illegal bowling action during his side's seven runs victory over England in the fourth One-Day International at Lords on Saturday.
[url]http://www.icc-cricket.com/news/2014/media-releases/80484/senananyake-reported-for-suspected-illegal-bowling-action[/url] ([url]http://www.icc-cricket.com/news/2014/media-releases/80484/senananyake-reported-for-suspected-illegal-bowling-action[/url])
FINALLY! Can't believe he's got away with it for so long
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quite! of course he'll just bowl a load of lobs in the test and be cleared to chuck again!
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It's hilarious reading replies to the ECB tweet stating this.
1 guy was going mental, saying the ECB are jealous and bitter. They ECB responded saying they didn't raise it and he thinks it's a big controversy and it's unfair on Senanyke and disrespectful to him etc etc
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1 guy was going mental, saying the ECB are jealous and bitter. They ECB responded saying they didn't raise it and he thinks it's a big controversy and it's unfair on Senanyke and disrespectful to him etc etc
how long till we get the race card out? I give it T minus five...four...
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Well it's the responsibility of the umpires to report the bowler so not sure why someone is going nuts at the ECB.
In addition, anyone that thinks he doesn't throw it is in serious denial. The action is ridiculous and why things take so long to come about is beyond me! There are quite a few in the game at the moment and it's a shame that umpires are often too afraid to stand up and do something about it. How on earth the current crop of spin bowlers setting the world alight are even allowed to get to the top level before something is questioned is beyond me.
I'm fully aware that as they play more they will practise and try to implement things / actions to gain an advantage or deception but they must be applied within the laws of the game. Currently they aren't and I hope there is a real crackdown and some more freedom given to umpires to stamp it out. I've seen a couple of instances in club level cricket where bowlers have a very suspect action and just carry on through season after season with nothing happening! If an umpire suspects there is something wrong it would be nice at drinks or fall of wicket if umpires changed ends so they could both view the action rather than relying on one persons subjective view.
There will never be a fool proof system in place but we can only hope!
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In addition, anyone that thinks he doesn't throw it is in serious denial.
I put a picture of his action on my Facebook page well before he was reported and only 1 lad who came over to play for us for a couple of years laughed and said I was wrong about him throwing. Ill let you all take a guess at where he comes from...
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It seems fans are too often tinted by *insert team shirt colour here* tinted glasses.
I wonder if I fall into this bracket when I defend that Stuart Broad didn't edge it to first slip. He edged it to the keeper, the keeper parried it to first slip. If the keeper had parried it to Gully would Broad have edged it gully?
I wish the ICC would be tight on these suspicious Doosra's, they'll spread like wildfire if we're not careful.
Team I played against on Saturday had a spinner who I felt was going beyond 15 degrees, when I mentioned it to a fellow player on my team, "he's been playing for 20 years and nobody has raised it so it can't be raised now"
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Perhaps to stop this "race card" issue and singling out players who may or may not be chuckers, they should bring in random sampling and testing.
Every bowler must be tested every 2-4 years and all new bowlers within the first 12 months of international cricket.
I am sure there will be a time where a computer can monitor this in game. A bit like hawkeye but for bowling actions.
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I am sure there will be a time where a computer can monitor this in game. A bit like hawkeye but for bowling actions.
And then it be a no ball if they exceed 15 degrees. I like it! Would certainly stop all this pussyfooting around by umpires.
Technology might be a bit far off though, plus can't see the countries with guys who have been investigated recently (West Indies, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc) agreeing to it's use, much like India with the DRS.
But food for thought for the future.
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And then it be a no ball if they exceed 15 degrees. I like it! Would certainly stop all this pussyfooting around by umpires.
Technology might be a bit far off though, plus can't see the countries with guys who have been investigated recently (West Indies, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc) agreeing to it's use, much like India with the DRS.
But food for thought for the future.
the way technology moves, I would not be shocked if it could already be done. Just need someone to pay for the time and effort into actually providing this. It would need a few camera angles and such like, maybe a heat sensor to get through the shirt.
Not sure about it being a no-ball, as it would have to be turned around quick. Maybe give the opposition 4 runs each time and deduct 5% of the bowler and captains match fee, that would soon stop it.
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I don't think majority of Sri Lankan fans are bringing out the 'Race card' on this one rather than being nationalistic and sticking with their player hoping for the best, similar things happen all over the cricket regardless of the colour . Obviously there will be few ignorant people who will pull out the race card.
That Stuart Broad incident was a good example, a guy in our team who values spirit of the game did a complete U turn on his opinions to defend Stuart Broad incident saying it's umpires decision to give players out and all that.
As a Sri Lankan my self and many of other SL fans agree that his action looks bad to the naked so it has to get checked. But regardless the outcome he will be classed as a chucker for the rest of his career.
And you can't decide if a player chucks more than 15 degrees by watching on 2D image on TV, for example if the bowler keep the same bent on his arm but twists the arm from the shoulder then it looks like he has extended the arm on 2D view, but in reality he hasn't. So testing has to be done properly in a lab or with multiple cameras in match conditions. And many get this 15 degree rule mixed up, including past international players, It's the flex which is not allowed , you can bowl with your arm bent for 90 degrees is you want toas long as he keeps the same amount of bend at the point of delivery.
Plus it doesn't really help when people try to call the likes of Malinga a chucker , then it starts to look like they are being desperate and trying to call everyone a chucker.
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New coach and still same old thinking.
Would it not have been better to show some flexibility in the batting order and send in a right hand batsmen instead of having 2 Lefty's out there against off spin.
After a decent start, could have sent in a bopara or buttler instead of balance
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New coach and still same old thinking.
Would it not have been better to show some flexibility in the batting order and send in a right hand batsmen instead of having 2 Lefty's out there against off spin.
After a decent start, could have sent in a bopara or buttler instead of balance
Possibly but then you move England away from their game plan of accelerating through the middle overs with a thrash the end of the innings.
Look great if it works, stupid if it doesn't.
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It's hilarious reading replies to the ECB tweet stating this.
1 guy was going mental, saying the ECB are jealous and bitter. They ECB responded saying they didn't raise it and he thinks it's a big controversy and it's unfair on Senanyke and disrespectful to him etc etc
The race card is often used to protect players/individuals from the onlooking gaze of the authorities.
Do people want the ICC/ECB to police the game and safeguard its heritage and future? Or would they like to see the morality of the game eroded for their own means/ends?
Unfortunately, some people choose the latter.
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Possibly but then you move England away from their game plan of accelerating through the middle overs with a thrash the end of the innings.
Look great if it works, stupid if it doesn't.
Thought the plan is get off to a good start, keep the batting order the same, the middle order struggles to score and then collapses as is the case today
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Am only able to read ESPN but have Sri Lanka actually earned a wicket yet or have England given everyone one of them away as it seems?
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Sounds like Hales is playing a one day innings at the moment 114 runs off 103 balls
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Sounds like Hales is playing a one day innings at the moment 114 runs off 103 balls
145 off 118 now!!!
For a guy who hasn't hit a county century in god knows how long, good way to change your game plan and make it work!
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Buttler out backing up too far. No problem with that from the chucker, he warned him a few times last over.
Takes a strong captain not to withdraw the appeal for that.
Don't think the England team will be too happy or the crowd!
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Crap cricket poor at that standard very poor maybe the chucker should learn to bowl instead of chucking.
His was hardly stealing just backing up he naturally went hardly running down.
Within the rules they say shame his arm isn't
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Was bowler in his delivery stride?
Personally no sympathy non strikers are so used to just going as far down as possible they no longer pay attention to bowler
He warned him enough
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Let's assemble an angry mob.
Can't believe that's happened in International cricket.
I'm interested in the reaction after the game of Sangakara and Jayawadener (excuse spelling).
Agree with pcB3 that he should learn to bowl first.
What's the betting he gets some short stuff when he comes out to bat?
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He defo wasn't looking to steal a quick single. I didn't see the previous over, if was warned previously I don't see an issue, but if he wasn't it was very poor from Sri Lanka.
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He was warned a couple of times
But for me he was in delivery stride so should have been not out
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All opinions think it is poor if you can't get a batsman out proper and resort to that.
Doesn't help him being a vilan of the show as well.
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Let's assemble an angry mob.
Can't believe that's happened in International cricket.
I'm interested in the reaction after the game of Sangakara and Jayawadener (excuse spelling).
Agree with pcB3 that he should learn to bowl first.
What's the betting he gets some short stuff when he comes out to bat?
Sri lanka play cricket this way and have done for a long time. Senior players like Sangakarra and Jayawarnde are no different
Sangakarra appealing all day long, bowlers chucking and bowling no balls so batsmen can't get 100's, yet they moan when a SL bowler gets accused of chucking.
Have to say fair play to buttler for just walking away with little fuss
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Sri lanka play cricket this way and have done for a long time. Senior players like Sangakarra and Jayawarnde are no different
Sangakarra appealing all day long, bowlers chucking and bowling no balls so batsmen can't get 100's, yet they moan when a SL bowler gets accused of chucking.
Have to say fair play to buttler for just walking away with little fuss
and Sangakarra recently gave the 'Spirit of cricket' lecture.
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Sangakarra gave a lecture on spirit of the game at Lords last weekend......
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He was warned a couple of times
But for me he was in delivery stride so should have been not out
Have to agree, he tried it again and stopped as he was about to release the ball, that's not on!
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Have to agree, he tried it again and stopped as he was about to release the ball, that's not on!
That was the import callander deadline ball.
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Was perfectly acceptable for him to do so having warned him a couple of times beforehand in my opinion. Not much you can do from there onwards and Buttler probably should have been a bit more aware.
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Apparently 2 controversial parts of the decision:
- You're not allowed to pretend to bowl and hold on and take the stumps.
- It's only out if the batsman is attempting to steal a run (which is open to interpretation) but had it been blocked I doubt buttler would have pushed the single through
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Apparently 2 controversial parts of the decision:
- You're not allowed to pretend to bowl and hold on and take the stumps.
- It's only out if the batsman is attempting to steal a run (which is open to interpretation) but had it been blocked I doubt buttler would have pushed the single through
Blatant cheating his front arm comes down his bowling arm comes over then he stops, Buttler is about half a yard out of his crease.
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But he didn't pretend to hold onto the ball, he just stopped before entering his action and still Buttler failed to notice for a couple of seconds.
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They've changed law
Just seen it
It used to be delivery stride it's now delivery swing
So legitimate wicket for me just poor play from butler
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But he didn't pretend to hold onto the ball, he just stopped before entering his action and still Buttler failed to notice for a couple of seconds.
He was fully into his action his front arm came down past his hip and his bowling arm came over, he defo held onto the ball. He tried it again in the next over. If they batsman has been warned by the bowler and then continues to leave his crease as the bowler reaches the crease, he can then be run out I see no problem with that, but what just happened was cheating.
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They've changed law
Just seen it
It used to be delivery stride it's now delivery swing
So legitimate wicket for me just poor play from butler
Still not out as he was in the swing, he hadn't planted his front leg and stopped.
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So it is clear the bowler warned the batsmen,
But,
Does the batsmen get the chance to warn the bowler that running him out in that manner will be seriously bad for his health?
Fairs, fair.
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He was fully into his action his front arm came down past his hip and his bowling arm came over, he defo held onto the ball. He tried it again in the next over. If they batsman has been warned by the bowler and then continues to leave his crease as the bowler reaches the crease, he can then be run out I see no problem with that, but what just happened was cheating.
His bowling arm was still below waist height. The following over was a crowd disturbance, he didn't try it again.
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By the way they were talking it's his delivery swing which his front arm was not in
Grey area but no sympathy for me
Stay in your crease and can't happen
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His bowling arm was still below waist height. The following over was a crowd disturbance, he didn't try it again.
Look at the positive, least he didn't chuck that ball ;)
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As I've said in all the other threads, I don't see how you can say for definate someone chucks it at all with a blind eye ;).
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Butler wicket within the rules , even had a warning so not sure what's all the fuss is about .
Spirit of the game ? well yeah would have been 'nice' if Anjelo asked Butler to stay but that's how the game is played these days ...speaking about spirit of the game, well England started the series by snatching SL coach in highly unethical manner just before the series so England should be the last one to complain about spirit of the game.
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Odd dismissal by Jayawardne...looked like a scripted dismissal. wouldn't surprise me if Sri lanka went on to lose this
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Gurney puzzles me. When he bowls over the wicket, I really like it - but when he comes round the wicket he always seems to get tw@tted.
He seems to feel his last couple have to be from round the wicket, and he never changes. Possibly another case of inflexible England thinking, captaincy and management.
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Amazing how one of the most recent videos on the ECB YouTube feed is yorker practise. Any danger of bowling a few more rather than length and short nonsense?
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Presentation ought to be interesting given cook and Mathews at the end
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test matches could add a touch of spice now too!
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Odd dismissal by Jayawardne...looked like a scripted dismissal. wouldn't surprise me if Sri lanka went on to lose this
Or maybe just a premeditated shot since field was up and he simply misjudged the length.
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Looks like buttler got warned last match as well, so it's stupid that he continued to do it.
But must have been a tactical decision by Sri Lanka to go for that dismissal.
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And then it be a no ball if they exceed 15 degrees. I like it! Would certainly stop all this pussyfooting around by umpires.
Technology might be a bit far off though, plus can't see the countries with guys who have been investigated recently (West Indies, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc) agreeing to it's use, much like India with the DRS.
But food for thought for the future.
couldn't they put sensors around the elbow joint of the bowler then use 3d cameras to map it on a computer? I'm not 100% sure how ot works but they do it in hurdles training to check the efficiency of the running and jumping action.
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Lolo jones used it in her training.
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Hmm.. I saw the mankading and thought "that's not out, he's entered his delivery stride" - now just read that the ICC have changed the regs for international games to say the delivery swing must not be completed.... But for us clubbies, the MCC rule about delivery stride does still apply..
Why the hell, for this particular rule are the regs different??!
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I reckon fair game. Why should batsmen be getting away with backing up miles gaining an advantage over the fielding team.
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Buttler - Needs to learn from his mistakes. Simple as that.
MCC and ECB - Need to just become a little more proactive rather than reactive.
Sri Lanka and Buttler need to be spoken to about the 'spirit of cricket'. As much as it was a weird dismissal, and one which is generally seen not to be in the Spirit of Cricket, Buttler was a complete plonker as he was repeatedly warned.
I know this will wage on and on but if Buttler had taken the warnings seriously, we wouldn't be in this position.
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If it is in the laws of cricket, why is it so controversial when it happens? Why is it against the spirit of cricket when it is completely legal? If is it so controversial, why isn't the law changed? If this law gets changed, then the batsman will have a huge advantage. Lately, I have noticed that all controversies have been against bowlers, especially Senanyake and Ajmal. Even though the laws have been changed to accommodate bowlers, people are still complaining about them whenever something is unconventional. I know Senanyake is probably chucking it, but i remember the only problem with the switch hit was when Dilshan didn't bowl to Pietersen because he was shaping up to play the switch hit. Pietersen ended up playing the reverse sweep! So is the game that batsman friendly that they have to be warned before they get out? I hope it wont get to the point where the keeeper 'warns' the batsman instead of stumping him!
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The game is not that batsmen friendly that they have to be warned, completely within the rules to do it without giving a warning.
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The game is not that batsmen friendly that they have to be warned, completely within the rules to do it without giving a warning.
I know it is completely within the rules, but when something like this happens, the 'spirit of cricket' is brought up. Why is it such a grey area in the game, when it is lot clearer in the rules?
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Fair play since he had been warned. No excuses really.
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Fair play even if he hasn't been warned. Its in the rules so a dismissal like any other. And after 2 warnings, completely understandable. As Jayawardene mentioned, they saw this happening in the Lords ODI. Angelo should have just informed Cook at the toss. No need to give warnings later. And for those claiming, he wasn't going to steal a run, why in the world would you walk out of your crease?
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Those using the "spirt of the game" argument, should now advocate allowing the batsman a second chance before he is stumped, or allowing bowlers some leeway to bowl no-balls. Pretty silly to think that the batsman has been treated unfairly. And I don't believe in "warning" the batsmen either - if you're trying to gain an advantage by leaving the crease before the bowler bowls, then you shouldn't really complain if the fielding side catches you. Imagine if this happened in baseball, where people trying to steal a run, wanted warnings etc, before they were actually out!!
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Not really sure where I fall on this, on the one hand he warned Buttler so was within his rights, on the other hand Buttler really didn't look like he was stealing a run.
Either way Swanny summed up my views on it perfectly...
"I think if I'd been called for chucking I'd try to keep a low profile for a while rather than pull out the mankad!!! Incredible scenes!"
He's already been called for chucking (I think he's a chucker personally) so should have been keeping his head down, instead he's Mankadding Buttler knowing what kind of reaction it would bring even if he was within his rights to do it. The blokes either very stupid or...o.....no, I've got nothing, he's clearly just very stupid.
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Butler was warned in the last game and in his game so I think it's 100% fair game to mankad him. A bowler cannot overstep the mark so why should a batsmen be given an advantage by backing up so far. Rules are rules!
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Crap cricket poor at that standard very poor maybe the chucker should learn to bowl instead of chucking.
His was hardly stealing just backing up he naturally went hardly running down.
Within the rules they say shame his arm isn't
Dave,i have been following this forum for a long time and you are one of the few members on here i had respect for although we hadn't had any dealings.
But this reply of yours is very poor and being a true Sri Lankan,this is very offensive.Respect out of the window bud.
Now you said its poor cricket at that standard.instead of questioning the Lankan teams integrity why dont you question the bloody MCC who set the rules for that standard in the first place?it's well within the rules of cricket to run out a non striker who is out of his crease before the completion of a bowling action.this is not my opinion this is a fact
.Now coming onto your suggestion that chucker should learn how to bowl is very funny the way i see it.surely someone who doesn't know how to bowl can not remain to be the frontline spinner of the NO. 1 ranked T20 team and NO. 2 ranked ODI team?perhaps you and all you Englishmen are jealous and disappointed of the bitter truth that England do not have a international quality spinner.
what are your credentials to say he needs to learn how to bowl?you are at best a sorry old man who drops some half trackers on gloomy Saturday evenings.just admit that your so called English "batsman" can not face quality spin,nor England would be able to produce an international quality spinner for years to come.dont have to bitch about it.
Another point you made was that "His was hardly stealing just backing up he naturally went hardly running down." so going by your logic,if a striker is stumped,can he argue with the opposition captain that he wasn't stealing a run and he naturally went hardly running down despite the bails being removed while he is caught outside his crease?which is also perfectly fine by the law?how stupid is your logic?
before pointing fingers at others,look into your own team and dressing room.the truth is,England was and will never be a team of unity and spirited cricketers.dressing room meltdowns,backstabbing,throwing players out of the team,dealing with other teams' coaches underhand and the list goes on.you and your so called English team is not in a state to comment about others.and lets not forget how that dickhead Root stood their like a muppet when he was clearly caught off his gloves.where was the spirit of cricket there?
i can now see why Vic Nicholas on here shows that sort of attitude towards some of you Englishmen.
i dont have to remind you about how many "Spirit of the game" awards Sri Lanka has won and how Sangakkara is the only player in history to deliver the Cowdry lecture while still representing a national team.we have always and always will be known to be gentlemen as far as cricket is concerned.
Sore losers some of you Englishmen are,thats all.
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I'm not English and my opinion is he chucks, the SL team love playing the victim and whilst I have no objection to this mankad I do have an objection to his action, it's woeful.
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Not really sure where I fall on this, on the one hand he warned Buttler so was within his rights, on the other hand Buttler really didn't look like he was stealing a run.
Either way Swanny summed up my views on it perfectly...
"I think if I'd been called for chucking I'd try to keep a low profile for a while rather than pull out the mankad!!! Incredible scenes!"
He's already been called for chucking (I think he's a chucker personally) so should have been keeping his head down, instead he's Mankadding Buttler knowing what kind of reaction it would bring even if he was within his rights to do it. The blokes either very stupid or...o.....no, I've got nothing, he's clearly just very stupid.
Why would he keep a low profile because of accusations?just because thats what Grame Swann would have done doesn't mean Senanayeka should follow the same.We are no pussies to run and hide and follow Swann's English mentality.and how does thinking intelligent and earning his team a wicket make him very stupid?
His action is legal and legit.he knows it and the Sri Lankan management knows it.thats what they pushed him to play the deciding game and brought him on inside the first 10 overs.
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Before anyone responds in an extreme way to SLCric's and Dave's posts, can I request that anyone responding does it in a calm and collected fashion?
I think it's fair to say that all international batsmen (including those from Sri Lanka) stand their ground until given out by the umpire.
The reason this one is controversial is that the rules that most people know about Mankadding stem from the MCC Laws, which state:
42.15. Bowler attempting to run out non-striker before delivery
The bowler is permitted, before entering his delivery stride, to attempt to run out the non-striker. Whether the attempt is successful or not, the ball shall not count as one of the over.
If the bowler fails in an attempt to run out the non-striker, the umpire shall call and signal Dead ball as soon as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhRuslE37U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhRuslE37U)
Which in this case in the video, would be a dead ball, and not out, as Senanayake has entered his delivery stride in all cases.
Under the ICC International rules, 42.15 states:
The bowler is permitted, before releasing the ball and provided he has not completed his usual delivery swing, to attempt to run out the non- striker. Whether the attempt is successful or not, the ball shall not count as one of the over. If the bowler fails in an attempt to run out the non-striker, the umpire shall call and signal Dead ball as soon possible.
Or in other words, to put it in to laymans terms, the ICC rule is "Stay in your crease until the point of delivery or you risk being run out".
I'd suggest that Senanayake and the Sri Lankan coaches had taken a look at the rules and the video of Buttler batting and worked out that he was applying the MCC rather than ICC rule and hence did this.
Whose fault is it? In this case Buttler's for not knowing the rules properly and Kudos to the Sri Lankan team for spotting an opportunity at getting a relatively cheap wicket.
As for Senanayake's Action? It's been questioned for the two years that he has been playing international cricket. It hasn't been reported because umpires fear the Darryl Hair treatment. To the naked eye, watching the TV, or at a cricket ground for those who love the beautiful game, it looks like a chuck. As he has been reported, we'll now find out whether it is.
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Before anyone responds in an extreme way to SLCric's and Dave's posts, can I request that anyone responding does it in a calm and collected fashion?
I think it's fair to say that all international batsmen (including those from Sri Lanka) stand their ground until given out by the umpire.
The reason this one is controversial is that the rules that most people know about Mankadding stem from the MCC Laws, which state:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhRuslE37U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhRuslE37U)
Which in this case in the video, would be a dead ball, and not out, as Senanayake has entered his delivery stride in all cases.
Under the ICC International rules, 42.15 states:
Or in other words, to put it in to laymans terms, the ICC rule is "Stay in your crease until the point of delivery or you risk being run out".
I'd suggest that Senanayake and the Sri Lankan coaches had taken a look at the rules and the video of Buttler batting and worked out that he was applying the MCC rather than ICC rule and hence did this.
Whose fault is it? In this case Buttler's for not knowing the rules properly and Kudos to the Sri Lankan team for spotting an opportunity at getting a relatively cheap wicket.
As for Senanayake's Action? It's been questioned for the two years that he has been playing international cricket. It hasn't been reported because umpires fear the Darryl Hair treatment. To the naked eye, watching the TV, or at a cricket ground for those who love the beautiful game, it looks like a chuck. As he has been reported, we'll now find out whether it is.
Well put sir... ;)
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Before anyone responds in an extreme way to SLCric's and Dave's posts, can I request that anyone responding does it in a calm and collected fashion?
Oh, go on, lets have a flame war. Pretty please? Pretty please with toasted marshmallows?
As for Senanayake's Action? It's been questioned for the two years that he has been playing international cricket. It hasn't been reported because umpires fear the Darryl Hair treatment. To the naked eye, watching the TV, or at a cricket ground for those who love the beautiful game, it looks like a chuck. As he has been reported, we'll now find out whether it is.
I don't personally have too big of an issue with the Mankading; whilst I am not convinced I would have allowed one of my bowlers to uphold the appeal and think that the so called spirit of the game was being stretched, it was nontheless within the laws of the game and Buttler had allegedly been warned so can have few real grumbles.
But Senanayake's action I have real issues with - you say it "looks" like a chuck - well, I've seen it slowed down to near freeze frame and I can assure you it IS a chuck, and as has been discussed at much length on here, chucking is the single biggest threat to the game outside of illegal sub-continental bookmakers and the corruption they bring. It would be heartening to have heard from some Sri Lankan fans to the effect that they feel the same way, or at least some evidence to contradict the allegation, but instead we hear SLCric's assertion that to even suggest that a Sri Lankan chucks is:
1. An insult to the good name of Sri Lanka and
2. Bitterness on the part of someone who can't acheive to the same standard (which is pretty odd because I'm sure most club cricketers have tried bowling with a Murali action in the nets for a laugh and found that, yes, they too can acheive insane revolutions on the ball if they don't worry about the niceties of the rules.
This is exactly the same attitude that was seen when Darryl Hair (quite correctly) no balled good old Muchi some years back, and is trotted out every time an Asian spinner is found to have a questionnable action. The insult to the good name of Sri Lanka is not the suggestion that individual bowlers are chuckers any more than it would be an insult to the good name of England to state that Mervyn Westfield was a match fixer - the insult is that the team and their fans appear to think that they should be permitted to carry on in such a way regardless!
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Was at the game yesterday and his action defintley looked as much of a chuck live as it does on TV
Felt cheated about the run out as well not in the sense that it wasn't out but in the fact you've paid your money to go and watch top level cricket and to see something like that wasn't on. guarantee if you went back and looked through the footage of the series there would be evidence of the sri Lankan batsmen doing the exact same thing, its not trying to steal a run just something you end up doing
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Was at the game yesterday and his action defintley looked as much of a chuck live as it does on TV
Felt cheated about the run out as well not in the sense that it wasn't out but in the fact you've paid your money to go and watch top level cricket and to see something like that wasn't on. guarantee if you went back and looked through the footage of the series there would be evidence of the sri Lankan batsmen doing the exact same thing, its not trying to steal a run just something you end up doing
Quite possibly - as I said, it doesn't reflect well on them overall but was technically in keeping with the laws of the game.
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@stevie_94, its something you end up doing only so that you can take a quick run. You see lesser instances of this in test cricket as the urgency is not the same. And when Buttler had already been warned twice, there is no reason not to run him out.
As for the allegations about chucking, I am sure the tests will reveal the truth. I am sure they will use footage of his bowling from the series and compare it to his action during the tests to determine whether he is indeed chucking.
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There's a reason I said "looks" in italics. Whilst I am equally convinced that it is a chuck, until it is proven otherwise.
3. Definition of fair delivery - the arm
A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler’s arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.
Is the standard MCC law as we all understand it. I can't find an amended law from the ICC that states something along the lines of:
"A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler’s arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened by more than 15 degrees from that point until the ball has left the hand."
But this 15 degree straightening is supposed to be on the margins of what is visible to the naked eye. For me, if Senanayake is proved to be within the 15 degree window, then okay, but the marginality of that "inside" and the fact that he throws will not stop him being a chucker. The fact that it is clearly visible to the naked eye would suggest that the 15 degree measure imposed is in fact incorrect.
He will simply be a chucker within the margins of error that the ICC allow and therefore he and others will be playing to the letter, but not the spirit, of the rules.
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Interesting comparison between attitudes in Sri Lanka to allegations that Muchichuckalot and Senanayake chuck (or Pakistan to similar thoughts regarding Saqliain and Saeed Ajmal) and that seen here when the likes of James Kirtley and Geoff Cope have had their actions questionned.
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Why the hell, for this particular rule are the regs different??!
It's the same for at least one other law, wide ball/no ball for a bouncer above head height to name for example. There are probably others, but that's just one that springs to mind
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Across the series, England have played some quite brilliant cricket at times but at others it has been woeful at best! I think Sri Lanka deserved their 3-2 win on the balance of the games.
Now onto the talking points. The Buttler run out we all know is fair game. We don't like it and would prefer to see wickets earned but after his warning you would have hoped he would have utilised some common sense. He didn't so we need to move on.
The comments made previously though are interesting ones. A reply from one person has developed into a rather scathing attack on England and generalisations on English people on here which I find incredibly disappointing given the usual insightful and thought-provoking comments I read on here day to day. Each to their own though but I for one think it leaves a slight sour taste.
The most important aspect of the series and cricket in general for me is stamping out areas of play not within the laws. That revolves around Shenanayake. I'm not surprised he played yesterday and if I was Sri Lanka I would play him aswell until you are told he can't as he is incredibly effective. His action is very suspect and if cleared I will lose all faith in how the ICC conduct their testing. I hope he adapts his technique and continues to play but in its current state it makes a mockery of requiring to bowl with a straight(ish) arm. I truly wish England had an international class spinner in their ranks but not at the detriment of the laws of the game. Unfortunately they don't so lets all look forward to the test series as i think last night will add a bit of spice and make it a very competitive contest. Onwards and upwards!
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Why would he keep a low profile because of accusations?just because thats what Grame Swann would have done doesn't mean Senanayeka should follow the same.We are no pussies to run and hide and follow Swann's English mentality.and how does thinking intelligent and earning his team a wicket make him very stupid?
His action is legal and legit.he knows it and the Sri Lankan management knows it.thats what they pushed him to play the deciding game and brought him on inside the first 10 overs.
Don't even know where to start with this so I wont bother....
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Lahiru Thirimanne mankaded by Ravichandran Ashwin: http://youtu.be/qsZTPrU4JjY (http://youtu.be/qsZTPrU4JjY)
All it needed was one of the senior pros to do what sachin did and it would have been a complete non issue
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Lahiru Thirimanne mankaded by Ravichandran Ashwin: [url]http://youtu.be/qsZTPrU4JjY[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/qsZTPrU4JjY[/url])
All it needed was one of the senior pros to do what sachin did and it would have been a complete non issue
I remember this, Matthews was on strike.
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Oh, go on, lets have a flame war. Pretty please? Pretty please with toasted marshmallows?
I don't personally have too big of an issue with the Mankading; whilst I am not convinced I would have allowed one of my bowlers to uphold the appeal and think that the so called spirit of the game was being stretched, it was nontheless within the laws of the game and Buttler had allegedly been warned so can have few real grumbles.
But Senanayake's action I have real issues with - you say it "looks" like a chuck - well, I've seen it slowed down to near freeze frame and I can assure you it IS a chuck, and as has been discussed at much length on here, chucking is the single biggest threat to the game outside of illegal sub-continental bookmakers and the corruption they bring. It would be heartening to have heard from some Sri Lankan fans to the effect that they feel the same way, or at least some evidence to contradict the allegation, but instead we hear SLCric's assertion that to even suggest that a Sri Lankan chucks is:
1. An insult to the good name of Sri Lanka and
2. Bitterness on the part of someone who can't acheive to the same standard (which is pretty odd because I'm sure most club cricketers have tried bowling with a Murali action in the nets for a laugh and found that, yes, they too can acheive insane revolutions on the ball if they don't worry about the niceties of the rules.
This is exactly the same attitude that was seen when Darryl Hair (quite correctly) no balled good old Muchi some years back, and is trotted out every time an Asian spinner is found to have a questionnable action. The insult to the good name of Sri Lanka is not the suggestion that individual bowlers are chuckers any more than it would be an insult to the good name of England to state that Mervyn Westfield was a match fixer - the insult is that the team and their fans appear to think that they should be permitted to carry on in such a way regardless!
I am surprised the MCC and ECB haven't taken the stumps, gone home and said no-one gets to play until it is done properly...
It is a questionable delivery - that is why he has been reported and sent for tests. However, like Murali, he will adjust his action when being tested. The ball will deviate less, but the arm will be straighter. Testing, as referred to before, is a blunt instrument.
How we can change the situation
1. If bowlers have nothing to hide, ban bowlers from being allowed to wear long sleeve shirts. Everyone knows why, on a blisteringly hot day, some bowlers wear them.
2. The use of technology over a 365-day period (At the expense of the relative cricket board) to analyse a bowlers action in match conditions (heat spots etc).
3. Fines for hiding behind the national or racial 'vail of safety'. In a world where racism is becoming more and more unacceptable (The UK being one of the first societies to make racism socially unacceptable), if we flip this on it's head, why are other countries allowed to 'disrespect' us, our MCC, our ECB, in the name of protecting someone suspected of cheating by the very laws of the game we uphold?
I suggest the ECB/ICC/MCC* (Delete as appropriate) gets tough with Sri Lanka in this case and makes it very obvious that any reference to race being an issue, will incur an large-scale international ban of 12 months. I know this might sound tough, but I am sick and tired of certain countries playing the race card to get away with whatever they see to be a threat.
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People are asking why is spirit of the game being questioned if it's in the rules.
Spirit of the game is about playing cricket to a morale standard.
Why are mankads bad and batsman not given a 2nd chance when stumping?
Simple: Skill involved in getting the batsman out.
Out stumped is skill from the wicket keeper, and bowler for beating the batsman. You have bettered that player and earned his wicket.
Out caught, skill from the fielder to hold onto the ball, could be a good ball, could be a bad shot. You've earned a wicket.
Out bowled, the bowler has beaten the batsman
Out LBW bowler has beaten the batsman
Out run out (excluding mankad) the fielder has beaten the batsman with a good throw
Out mankad, IMO you haven't got the batsman out using a skill.
Yes it's in the laws, but that doesn't mean it's in the spirit of the game.
What if after that the batsman on strike walked away from the crease as Senanyke was about to enter his delivery stride, and he did this 6 times in a row claiming there was movement behind the bowler. It's within the rules so he's allowed to do this, but it's obviously not within spirit of the game.
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Mankading without a warning I'd have an issue with, if he's given a warning or warning's then it's purely Buttlers fault for not taking note and making sure he wasn't backing up too far.
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I am surprised the MCC and ECB haven't taken the stumps, gone home and said no-one gets to play until it is done properly...
It is a questionable delivery - that is why he has been reported and sent for tests. However, like Murali, he will adjust his action when being tested. The ball will deviate less, but the arm will be straighter. Testing, as referred to before, is a blunt instrument.
How we can change the situation
1. If bowlers have nothing to hide, ban bowlers from being allowed to wear long sleeve shirts. Everyone knows why, on a blisteringly hot day, some bowlers wear them.
2. The use of technology over a 365-day period (At the expense of the relative cricket board) to analyse a bowlers action in match conditions (heat spots etc).
3. Fines for hiding behind the national or racial 'vail of safety'. In a world where racism is becoming more and more unacceptable (The UK being one of the first societies to make racism socially unacceptable), if we flip this on it's head, why are other countries allowed to 'disrespect' us, our MCC, our ECB, in the name of protecting someone suspected of cheating by the very laws of the game we uphold?
I suggest the ECB/ICC/MCC* (Delete as appropriate) gets tough with Sri Lanka in this case and makes it very obvious that any reference to race being an issue, will incur an large-scale international ban of 12 months. I know this might sound tough, but I am sick and tired of certain countries playing the race card to get away with whatever they see to be a threat.
Agree with all of that; I'd actually go one further and change the testing regime from purely out of competition testing to a hybrid test that, yes, requires the bowler to bowl legitimately in front of a slow motion camera system, but then links that back to footage of them in competition to confirm that the action is the same. I would also require the player to wear the relevant brace in his first X number of competitive matches back to confirm the lack of straightening in competition.
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Mankading without a warning I'd have an issue with, if he's given a warning or warning's then it's purely Buttlers fault for not taking note and making sure he wasn't backing up too far.
Is Mankading another word for 'Death of the Spirit of Cricket'? :-[
Sorry, I am not bi-lingual...
Seriously, common sense must prevail on this law. Buttler was not trying to steal an unfair advantage by charging, but backing up. YES, it is in the law. YES, he was warned. HOWEVER, is the dismissal itself in the spirit of the game? I still suggest not.
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Is Mankading another word for 'Death of the Spirit of Cricket'? :-[
Sorry, I am not bi-lingual...
Seriously, common sense must prevail on this law. Buttler was not trying to steal an unfair advantage by charging, but backing up. YES, it is in the law. YES, he was warned. HOWEVER, is the dismissal itself in the spirit of the game? I still suggest not.
Sorry mate but there's about a foot's advantage in Buttler backing up too far. If there was a run out chance and he was in by half a foot, then surely he gained an unfair advantage? And he had been warned.
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Is Mankading another word for 'Death of the Spirit of Cricket'? :-[
Sorry, I am not bi-lingual...
Seriously, common sense must prevail on this law. Buttler was not trying to steal an unfair advantage by charging, but backing up. YES, it is in the law. YES, he was warned. HOWEVER, is the dismissal itself in the spirit of the game? I still suggest not.
Same thing in the end, he was gaining a foot or two unfairly and that much can make a big difference to a batsman getting run out or not. Eventually can decide the fate of a game. So it was Butler who was not playing within the spirit of the game by gaining unfair advantage.
Where was the spirit of cricket when Root clearly gloved it and stayed on till Sri Lankans reviewed?
Where was the spirit of cricket when England snatched Sri Lankans head coach just before the England tour where it gave an unfair advantage of knowing sensitive inside tactics and informations of Sri Lankans? I didn't see anyone here exploding and calling it unethical or calling it not within spirit of the game.
So spirit of the game ? no not any more.
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He had been warned and should have taken heed. Silly error.
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Seriously, common sense must prevail on this law. Buttler was not trying to steal an unfair advantage by charging, but backing up. YES, it is in the law. YES, he was warned. HOWEVER, is the dismissal itself in the spirit of the game? I still suggest not.
Difficult isn't it. It was right in the Laws but not something anyone would feel comfortable having done.
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People are asking why is spirit of the game being questioned if it's in the rules.
Spirit of the game is about playing cricket to a morale standard.
Didn't see anyone questioning Root like this yesterday. :)
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Can't wait for league crickets this weekend, when someone tries to pull this off. It's good enough for international cricket so why not league cricket (different laws).
9 down, a few runs to win of the last over...non striker backing up too far, don't need to give a warning
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Didn't see anyone questioning Root like this yesterday. :)
Can also add Bell to that from a few years ago when he was run out ball before tea but kicked off a fuss and was recalled by India. Can't have it both ways when it suits you
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It comes back to what I mentioned earlier - Buttler was moving in accordance with the MCC rule (which we all play to week in and week out) and not to the ICC rule, which is "Stay in your crease until the point of delivery otherwise you can be out".
Is it within the spirit? Stealing a run isn't. Warning somebody about it is. Warning somebody about it multiple times definitely is. As a result of the circumstances, I think it is fair to say "Look, I've warned you multiple times. As you aren't going to listen, then I'm going to take the stumps and you will play no further part in this innings."
I really don't think there is any room for an argument about the spirit of cricket when the activity that started the whole process was the fault of the batsman that was undone here, who was already acting against the Spirit of Cricket.
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Where was the spirit of cricket when Root clearly gloved it and stayed on till Sri Lankans reviewed?
Not really the same though is it? The players have been taught to play to the whistle, to borrow a methaphor from the other game!
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Sorry mate but there's about a foot's advantage in Buttler backing up too far. If there was a run out chance and he was in by half a foot, then surely he gained an unfair advantage? And he had been warned.
I can see your point of view mate but as a bowler, it is not something I would ever consider UNLESS someone was taking the serious Michael by charging.
I understand the points about the spirit of cricket - and I agree about Root, Bell etc. However, we all accept those as that comes down to the umpire. We do not argue with umpires decisions.
I think the Mankading issue is that the bowler has done something outside of the normal operations of the game. As a bowler, I accept batsmen do not always walk (TBH I have not come across one this season who has walked!), I do not accept basically running out the non-striker in a way which represents the worst form of schoolboy cricket.
I know I will probably be seen as a hypocrite but the mankading type of dismissal, not the players, is disgraceful. It needs to go and be replaced with a 10 run penalty (or equivalent which isn't a wicket).
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Same thing in the end, he was gaining a foot or two unfairly and that much can make a big difference to a batsman getting run out or not. Eventually can decide the fate of a game. So it was Butler who was not playing within the spirit of the game by gaining unfair advantage.
Where was the spirit of cricket when Root clearly gloved it and stayed on till Sri Lankans reviewed?
Where was the spirit of cricket when England snatched Sri Lankans head coach just before the England tour where it gave an unfair advantage of knowing sensitive inside tactics and informations of Sri Lankans? I didn't see anyone here exploding and calling it unethical or calling it not within spirit of the game.
So spirit of the game ? no not any more.
Agree Root was in the wrong but that's how cricket it is nowadays.
With regards to the 'Head Coach' issue you've brought up a couple of times now. Surely he was given the option to stay with Sri Lanka / move to employment within the ECB. I doubt anyone forced it to happen. I can only assume that in all lines of work that money talks. If someone approached me with the offer of employment with more money for a similar role (I appreciate it isn't exactly the same but humour me) then I would probably take it. He went out on a high with the T20 success and perhaps he felt that now was a good time for a new challenge? The current state of English cricket is definitely a challenge so what is the problem?
NB: I am not fully au fait with all the dealings but if were are any underhand tactics from the ECB I shall hold my hands up now
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Can't wait for league crickets this weekend, when someone tries to pull this off. It's good enough for international cricket so why not league cricket (different laws).
9 down, a few runs to win of the last over...non striker backing up too far, don't need to give a warning
That's the problem because in the club game, this would end in a scrap!
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Lets be reasonable as regards Farbrace - he was offered a job byhis home country, of course he was going to want to take it. Nothing underhand, and Sri LAnka really have no reason to be surprised!
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Not really the same though is it? The players have been taught to play to the whistle, to borrow a methaphor from the other game!
In fact it is, play within the rules and not worry about spirit of the game , because no one seems to be playing according to that these days.
You can't just pick and choose when to to play within the spirit of the game , you either do all the time or don't!
The whole series started with ill manners so you can't really complain now. Just stick to the rules.
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I don't think the guys doing the testing at ICC are that dumb. They compare the action during the test to footage from the matches to see if it is the same. And the 15 degree change was made as they found that bowlers with model actions were also "chucking" as per the old laws. Just read what Michael Holding had to say. He was really surprised to find so many bowlers' actions are illegal based on the old laws.
Anyway very difficult to argue logic when people have made up their minds.
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On the subject of Senanayake, he was previously reported in 2011, and underwent a load of work.
Suspicions had previously been raised about the legality of his action during a 2011 tour of England, with the Sri Lanka "A" team. Senanayake had then worked to remedy his action with Sri Lankan coaches, after which he underwent biomechanical testing in Perth. Those tests found his bowling to be within the legal limits.
Sri Lanka Cricket at the time gave a statement to the effect "He wasn't called for Chucking, but reported for a 'Suspect bowling action'".
Very few people picked up on it at the time as it was Sri Lanka "A", but if there was a lot of work done to get him to pass the tests three years ago, there is clearly room for suspicion.
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In fact it is, play within the rules and not worry about spirit of the game , because no one seems to be playing according to that these days.
No, its not.
The Spirit of the game requires that players respect the decision of the Umpire - Root was given not out and respected that until it was challenged and overturned - which was precisely what players should do because, as has been discussed at length, they can't always be sure themselves that the Umpire was wrong to give them not out.
There is a big difference between that and looking to do a pickpocket job!
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With regards to the 'Head Coach' issue you've brought up a couple of times now. Surely he was given the option to stay with Sri Lanka / move to employment within the ECB. I doubt anyone forced it to happen. I can only assume that in all lines of work that money talks. If someone approached me with the offer of employment with more money for a similar role (I appreciate it isn't exactly the same but humour me) then I would probably take it. He went out on a high with the T20 success and perhaps he felt that now was a good time for a new challenge? The current state of English cricket is definitely a challenge so what is the problem?
Exactly my point , If England wanted to stay within the spirit of the game and still wanted to hire Farbrace then they could have
1. Offer the job after the series
or
2.Hire him but sit him out of Sri Lanka series to play fair.
I don't think I have to explain how crucial it is for a head coach to jump sides just before an important series like this (it was important series at least for Sri Lankans) .
He knew most of the strengths and weaknesses about current SL players , he was the one SL players trusted to discuss their strengths and weaknesses only two- three weeks ago. So now he is sitting in England dressing room and feeding all that info to the opposition.
He knows about recent inside team tactics which Sri Lankan team use in crunch situations, now he is feeding that information to English players.
Timing was too soon for him to change sides , so it was highly unethical and not within the spirit of the game , but still within rules and that is how things works in professional sports these days.
That was the point I was trying to make.
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It comes back to what I mentioned earlier - Buttler was moving in accordance with the MCC rule (which we all play to week in and week out) and not to the ICC rule, which is "Stay in your crease until the point of delivery otherwise you can be out".
Does this mean in ICC matches you can't drag your bat/have your bat in the crease but your feet out of it?
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No, its not.
The Spirit of the game requires that players respect the decision of the Umpire - Root was given not out and respected that until it was challenged and overturned - which was precisely what players should do because, as has been discussed at length, they can't always be sure themselves that the Umpire was wrong to give them not out.
There is a big difference between that and looking to do a pickpocket job!
Wrong again, it was within the rules and clearly stated in books. so not pick pocketing.
And for Root, he literally punched the ball right in front of his eyes and still didn't walk.
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what are your credentials to say he needs to learn how to bowl?you are at best a sorry old man who drops some half trackers on gloomy Saturday evenings
I think it's nice that you wish to defend the actions and reputation of your country in such a way - sadly your choice to resort to personal comments about the other poster above says more about you.
After all, no-one on here has called you an idiot for posting in such a reactionary way have they?
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TEA storm CUP
A lot of chat avoiding what is simply a case of picking out the stars of the series, Jordan etc, giving them a fair chance in the Test side, removing those not performing after a decent spell in the side, Morgan etc and then filling the vacant spots with talent from the counties and making sure they have a good run to establish themselves, Hales etc.
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Wrong again, it was within the rules and clearly stated in books. so not pick pocketing.
The Laws allow a bowler to bowl one head high full toss without being barred from bowling. Are you now suggesting that it would be acceptable for Malinga to deliberately run in and hurl one at the head of the batsman? :) FAce it, you haven't got a leg to stand on here!
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before pointing fingers at others,look into your own team and dressing room.the truth is,England was and will never be a team of unity and spirited cricketers.dressing room meltdowns,backstabbing,throwing players out of the team,dealing with other teams' coaches underhand and the list goes on.you and your so called English team is not in a state to comment about others.and lets not forget how that dickhead Root stood their like a muppet when he was clearly caught off his gloves.where was the spirit of cricket there?
Can someone give Arjuna Ranatunga a ring please? This guy has never heard of him...
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Does this mean in ICC matches you can't drag your bat/have your bat in the crease but your feet out of it?
No, as if your bat is grounded in the crease then you are still inside the crease.
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Can't wait for league crickets this weekend, when someone tries to pull this off. It's good enough for international cricket so why not league cricket (different laws).
9 down, a few runs to win of the last over...non striker backing up too far, don't need to give a warning
What I worry about are club bowlers going off the ICC rules seen yesterday and not the MCC rules we play to.
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The Laws allow a bowler to bowl one head high full toss without being barred from bowling. Are you now suggesting that it would be acceptable for Malinga to deliberately run in and hurl one at the head of the batsman? :) FAce it, you haven't got a leg to stand on here!
What if Senanayake bowled that ball and butler went for a run , fielder hits the stumps but butler is in by few inches because he had unfair advantage and not playing within spirit of the game? Then he goes to hit another 50 runs in next 20 balls and post a good total to win the match.
Who was against the spirit of the game here? it was Butler who was gaining unfair advantage in the first place, I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand.
Sri Lankans warned him twice to stick to the spirit of the game which they didn't have to , but still butler was doing the same thing, how many times do you think he should get warnings ?
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What I worry about are club bowlers going off the ICC rules seen yesterday and not the MCC rules we play to.
And that's always the issue with this kind of controversy. People play to the rules they watch, and in the Mankadding case, the rules are very different.
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Can someone give Arjuna Ranatunga a ring please? This guy has never heard of him...
Or ask the Sri LAnkan government topick the team based on who is related to government ministers? :)
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And that's always the issue with this kind of controversy. People play to the rules they watch, and in the Mankadding case, the rules are very different.
Our first team captain ManKadded an opposition player last season in a crunch match , so luckily I don't have to go through all the hassle about explaining the spirit of the game vs rules on next Saturday
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I think it's nice that you wish to defend the actions and reputation of your country in such a way - sadly your choice to resort to personal comments about the other poster above says more about you.
After all, no-one on here has called you an idiot for posting in such a reactionary way have they?
well its nice of you to defend your buddy too but are you telling me Dave did not resort to personal comments about a player?Senanayeka is a human after all so calling him a chucker who needs to learn how to bowl says all about Dave.and Dave is no international player and what i said is unfortunately true.you cant bitch about my reply when your buddy goes around insulting our players without solid proof.if that is not posting in such a reactionary way then i don't know what is.
Can someone give Arjuna Ranatunga a ring please? This guy has never heard of him...
indeed i know Arjuna very well.we are good family friends.what do you want to tell me about him that i don't seem to know?
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Or ask the Sri LAnkan government topick the team based on who is related to government ministers? :)
well how about you ask your own "English" government to pick 11 "English" players?
let the government pick our team does it really bother you lol?after all it didn't matter who picked our team.we outplayed you.
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Our first team captain ManKadded an opposition player last season in a crunch match , so luckily I don't have to go through all the hassle about explaining the spirit of the game vs rules on next Saturday
Had a similar situation in a ill mannered league game last season, the opposition batsmen was literally 1/4 down the pitch every ball, our captain removed the bails 5+ times. Yet the home umpire refused to follow the laws of the game and give him out. The batsmen continued to gain a advantage particularly when he wanted to farm the strike
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I don't know what MCC spirit of cricket everyone is claiming to exist. Sledging is rife , so is using unfair methods to gain advantage such as using mints, roughening up the ball. The MCC spirit of cricket was dead a long time ago. why flog a dead horse ?. I have seen many bowlers including our captain (ex prem league and an excellent one) chucking the odd one in division 1 and this happens irrespective of race/ colour. As long as there is allowance for bending , how can one be sure ?.
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Jayawardene said:
"We always try to play in the right spirit, but if the other team is not playing in the right spirit and not going with the law, then unfortunately we had to take the law into our hands. It was the third time. It is fair enough, I think. We all need to play by the rules.
"If the other sides are not going by the rules, then they're not playing by the spirit, so what can you do?"
Beside OPINION of whether it's right or wrong to steal a run. Can anyone actually point to the ICC rules and show where it says it is illegal for a batsman to leave his crease as the bowler is entering his delivery swing?
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Here is what Clarke said: http://www.cricket.com.au/news-list/2014/6/4/mankad-in-the-rules-says-michael-clarke
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Exactly my point , If England wanted to stay within the spirit of the game and still wanted to hire Farbrace then they could have
1. Offer the job after the series
or
2.Hire him but sit him out of Sri Lanka series to play fair.
I don't think I have to explain how crucial it is for a head coach to jump sides just before an important series like this (it was important series at least for Sri Lankans) .
He knew most of the strengths and weaknesses about current SL players , he was the one SL players trusted to discuss their strengths and weaknesses only two- three weeks ago. So now he is sitting in England dressing room and feeding all that info to the opposition.
He knows about recent inside team tactics which Sri Lankan team use in crunch situations, now he is feeding that information to English players.
Timing was too soon for him to change sides , so it was highly unethical and not within the spirit of the game , but still within rules and that is how things works in professional sports these days.
That was the point I was trying to make.
I appreciate what you are saying BUT...
1) Why hire him after the series when he could be such a valuable asset during it
2) Sitting him out of the series would be ridiculous as he is on the payroll so needs to earn his wage.
I fully agree that a change in head coach is huge but that's just life I guess. People make decisions all over the world in all walks of life linked to their place of work and unfortunately this is just another. With regards to it being 'unethical' and not within the 'spirit of the game' I'm not so sure. It isn't like he is on the field with the players. yes information can be passed over but you still have to be good enough to execute a plan. I see your point but don't think it fits under the umbrella of ethics and spirit of the game.
Finally if yourself or the Sri Lankan team were so concerned about what is ethically right should Senanayake be withdrawn from bowling because there is the possibility he has a 'suspect' action? Ethically if there was a chance it wasn't suitable surely taking the moral high ground and saying sorry but you aren't going to bowl until we can get you tested and cleared......They wouldn't do that and neither would I in their shoes because as with most things, you are innocent until proven guilty.
I don't think much of what is being discussed can be brought under the ethics umbrella in my opinion but without doubt some of what you are saying definitely has an impact and could be deemed unfair but unfortunately that's just timing and perhaps a clever move from the ECB in an attempt to try and find immediate success (Obviously didn't work enough in the ODI's so I wouldn't be too disheartened if I were you)
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SLcrici, you don't know what standard Dave plays at or his credentials,You don't know that Dave is old, sad or otherwise - you don't know whether Dave is my 'buddy' or not.
Everyone can see that Senanayeka has a best a questionable action that is going to provoke debate. Rightly or wrongly his action 'looks' like a chuck, (and I hope it gets proven not).
- ergo, I consider your comments foolish and personal, and those of Dave mildly inflammatory.
But I'm sure we'll end up agreeing to disagree :)
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slcric, to the majority of impartial observers, Senanayake appears to chuck. As such, a statement, he needs to learn to bowl, is not unusual. In fact, it seems he spent a lot of time trying to do that in the past, and may have fallen back to old ways. This is of course speculation, but the same can be said of Ajmal and Narine, both of whom cause many impartial observers to note a suspect bowling action.
This has nothing to do with being Sri Lankan, please note, and everything to do with the bowling action of all these players looking, frankly, like they are throwing it.
As for the government picking the team, can you explain why Sanath Jayasuriya was recalled in 2011 at the age of 41, despite having not played cricket for Sri Lanka for more than two years? Sangakarra's Cowdrey speech raised a lot of questions on the set-up of the SL administrations.
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well its nice of you to defend your buddy too but are you telling me Dave did not resort to personal comments about a player?Senanayeka is a human after all so calling him a chucker who needs to learn how to bowl says all about Dave.and Dave is no international player and what i said is unfortunately true.you cant bitch about my reply when your buddy goes around insulting our players without solid proof.if that is not posting in such a reactionary way then i don't know what is.
Hate to say it but Senanayake IS a chucker, there are no two ways about it, and Dave's comments, whilst phrased in his usual heart-on-the-sleeve style, are not reactionary or inappropriate. Yours, sadly, were..
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I don't know what MCC spirit of cricket everyone is claiming to exist. Sledging is rife , so is using unfair methods to gain advantage such as using mints, roughening up the ball. The MCC spirit of cricket was dead a long time ago. why flog a dead horse ?. I have seen many bowlers including our captain (ex prem league and an excellent one) chucking the odd one in division 1 and this happens irrespective of race/ colour. As long as there is allowance for bending , how can one be sure ?.
THIS!
And by the way, the amount of bleating several England players kept doing all through the innings as they were being beaten was pretty unedifying too!
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Beside OPINION of whether it's right or wrong to steal a run. Can anyone actually point to the ICC rules and show where it says it is illegal for a batsman to leave his crease as the bowler is entering his delivery swing?
There is nothing saying it is illegal, just that you can be run out...
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Jayawardene said:
"We always try to play in the right spirit, but if the other team is not playing in the right spirit and not going with the law, then unfortunately we had to take the law into our hands. It was the third time. It is fair enough, I think. We all need to play by the rules.
"If the other sides are not going by the rules, then they're not playing by the spirit, so what can you do?"
Beside OPINION of whether it's right or wrong to steal a run. Can anyone actually point to the ICC rules and show where it says it is illegal for a batsman to leave his crease as the bowler is entering his delivery swing?
Not sure if you are being sarcastic on use of words from Jayawardana or not, but if you are not then no it is not illegal to leave his crease but then you risk your self of getting run out, Tim clearly pointed out the laws about Mankadding so I'm not going to repeat that again.
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well how about you ask your own "English" government to pick 11 "English" players?
let the government pick our team does it really bother you lol?after all it didn't matter who picked our team.we outplayed you.
well, we have a set of impartial selectors (well, impartial from political interference at least) to do it instead but hey ho. And for the record, having seen all of their passports, I can confirm that every single guy is British!
As for outplayed....interesting concept in a 3-2 result that went down to the penultimate over!
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Not sure if you are being sarcastic on use of words from Jayawardana or not, but if you are not then no it is not illegal to leave his crease but then you risk your self of getting run out, Tim clearly pointed out the laws about Mankadding so I'm not going to repeat that again.
Not sarcastic, more highlighted as I didn't want to edit the quote down and potentially alter the context.
It seemed to me like Jayawardene was saying "they broke the rules, not us" and "if they break the rules, why should be play as gentlemen"
But no rules were broken that i'm aware of.
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I appreciate what you are saying BUT...
1) Why hire him after the series when he could be such a valuable asset during it
2) Sitting him out of the series would be ridiculous as he is on the payroll so needs to earn his wage.
I fully agree that a change in head coach is huge but that's just life I guess. People make decisions all over the world in all walks of life linked to their place of work and unfortunately this is just another. With regards to it being 'unethical' and not within the 'spirit of the game' I'm not so sure. It isn't like he is on the field with the players. yes information can be passed over but you still have to be good enough to execute a plan. I see your point but don't think it fits under the umbrella of ethics and spirit of the game.
Finally if yourself or the Sri Lankan team were so concerned about what is ethically right should Senanayake be withdrawn from bowling because there is the possibility he has a 'suspect' action? Ethically if there was a chance it wasn't suitable surely taking the moral high ground and saying sorry but you aren't going to bowl until we can get you tested and cleared......They wouldn't do that and neither would I in their shoes because as with most things, you are innocent until proven guilty.
I don't think much of what is being discussed can be brought under the ethics umbrella in my opinion but without doubt some of what you are saying definitely has an impact and could be deemed unfair but unfortunately that's just timing and perhaps a clever move from the ECB in an attempt to try and find immediate success (Obviously didn't work enough in the ODI's so I wouldn't be too disheartened if I were you)
You and I obviously have different views of where to draw the line in regards to spirit of the game, so lets just agree to disagree otherwise this can go rounds and rounds.
Yeah it didn't work for England this time , and I personally think Farbrace just did a risky thing and wasn't clever enough by joining England at this stage. if things goes right then yeah he and moors will be hailed but it will be their heads if things goes wrong.
He was with SL team for only 3 months so it can be a case of right time at right place rather than Farbrace winning it for Sri Lanka. if things go wrong in England job he will be a nobody again. I I was Farbrace I would have stayed with SL for at least an year to make a mark and then look for other career prospects, like what Moody did with SL.
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I agree with Mini998, Buttler was moronic, arrogant, and a little bit ignorant to be honest. He was warned, he ignored it, he deserves to be run out!
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SLcrici, you don't know what standard Dave plays at or his credentials,You don't know that Dave is old, sad or otherwise - you don't know whether Dave is my 'buddy' or not.
Everyone can see that Senanayeka has a best a questionable action that is going to provoke debate. Rightly or wrongly his action 'looks' like a chuck, (and I hope it gets proven not).
- ergo, I consider your comments foolish and personal, and those of Dave mildly inflammatory.
But I'm sure we'll end up agreeing to disagree :)
having been a member for 3 years on this forum,you cannot tell me Dave is a promising off spinner who plays at a standard which gives him credibility to call an international spinner a chucker who needs to learn how to bowl.
one does not simply develop an arson of deliveries and get into a national team overnight.it takes years of incredibly hard work and dedication to achieve what Senanayeka has achieved.something no English spinner has ever been able to display at an international level.perhaps thats why you guys are dumbfound by every subcontinent spinner?if your batsman cant face a bowler then he has to be reported.some people went as far as calling Malinga a chucker aswel!utter bull from a disappointed and jealous bunch.
slcric, to the majority of impartial observers, Senanayake appears to chuck. As such, a statement, he needs to learn to bowl, is not unusual. In fact, it seems he spent a lot of time trying to do that in the past, and may have fallen back to old ways. This is of course speculation, but the same can be said of Ajmal and Narine, both of whom cause many impartial observers to note a suspect bowling action.This has nothing to do with being Sri Lankan, please note, and everything to do with the bowling action of all these players looking, frankly, like they are throwing it. As for the government picking the team, can you explain why Sanath Jayasuriya was recalled in 2011 at the age of 41, despite having not played cricket for Sri Lanka for more than two years? Sangakarra's Cowdrey speech raised a lot of questions on the set-up of the SL administrations.
at no point did i defend our government.yes we all know how corrupt these politicians are.as a poster was trying to bring out Sri Lankan politics into this debate i was simply pointing out that it didnt matter who picked our team as long as we got the result we came for.a series win.
Sanath's situation is clear cut politics.but there is no point bringing out politics because as you see,Sri Lanka has been more consistent in more forms of the game than England have for quite a while now.so wether the team selection is politically influenced or not does not matter here.its all a good selection after all.
Hate to say it but Senanayake IS a chucker, there are no two ways about it, and Dave's comments, whilst phrased in his usual heart-on-the-sleeve style, are not reactionary or inappropriate. Yours, sadly, were..
can you show us proof of Senanayeka chucking?would love to see it.
and if Dave's comments are his usual heart-on-the-sleeve style,consider my comments the same.
you really have no leg to stand on.
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can you show us proof of Senanayeka chucking?would love to see it.
1. Go to youtube, Sky Go etc.
2. Search "Sennanayake"
3. Watch video.
4. See proof of chucking.
and if Dave's comments are his usual heart-on-the-sleeve style,consider my comments the same.
I consider your comments badly worded, factually inaccurate nationalistic piffle if you must know!
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can you show us proof of Senanayeka chucking?would love to see it.
Every single piece of video footage shows him chucking it. The question is not whether he is chucking it, rather whether he is chucking it within the rules (less than 15 degrees), or outside of the rules (more than 15 degrees).
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One thing I personally hate is when people claim someone is defimitely chucking. Fair enough, he clearly has an odd looking action but there is no way anybody can say for certain he is chucking. I'm not saying he's not, and its good that he's going to be tested, but accusing someone of 'cheating' without proof and no access to it is a big claim in my opinion.
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one does not simply develop an arson of deliveries and get into a national team overnight.it takes years of incredibly hard work and dedication to achieve what Senanayeka has achieved.something no English spinner has ever been able to display at an international level.perhaps thats why you guys are dumbfound by every subcontinent spinner?if your batsman cant face a bowler then he has to be reported.some people went as far as calling Malinga a chucker aswel!utter bull from a disappointed and jealous bunch.
Love it - an arson of deliveries. That'll really start a fire...
But yes, we have never had a spinner acheive what Sennanayake has acheived - namely convince his national authorities to let him chuck the ball in international cricket. HAd we developed such a genius talent we would surely have...erm...banned him or...erm...got him to bowl within the rules...
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I think the other thing is to note, is that its highly unlikely the bloke is chucking it on purpose (would be fairly stupid if he is). More likely is that he's just developed too many bad habits! Not cheating, just a problem with his action! Fortunately (or fortunately) we have invested a serious amount of money into coaching in this country and have therefore been able to coach these unnatural actions out of players before they become a problem. Hence why we have never had a mystery spinner, or a Malinga, because they would never get though the system!
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having been a member for 3 years on this forum,you cannot tell me Dave is a promising off spinner who plays at a standard which gives him credibility to call an international spinner a chucker who needs to learn how to bowl.
one does not simply develop an arson of deliveries and get into a national team overnight.it takes years of incredibly hard work and dedication to achieve what Senanayeka has achieved.something no English spinner has ever been able to display at an international level.perhaps thats why you guys are dumbfound by every subcontinent spinner?if your batsman cant face a bowler then he has to be reported.some people went as far as calling Malinga a chucker aswel!utter bull from a disappointed and jealous bunch.[/font]
"Something no English spinner has been ablet o achieve" - Doesn't matter what you bowl it's about taking the wickets, yes the wily subcontinental spinners give us headaches but I seem to remember a certain English spinner picking up 10 wickets in a test IN Sri Lanka circa 2011, I'm also sure of him ending up as the number 1 ranked ODI bowler around that time? I'm also fairly sure he broke 250 test wickets too (Which has only been achieved by two Sri Lankan bowlers to date?)...so yeah, good job we don't produce world class spinners.
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One thing I personally hate is when people claim someone is defimitely chucking. Fair enough, he clearly has an odd looking action but there is no way anybody can say for certain he is chucking. I'm not saying he's not, and its good that he's going to be tested, but accusing someone of 'cheating' without proof and no access to it is a big claim in my opinion.
"Chucking" is the act of straightening one's arm visibly in the delivery of the ball.
"Chucking legally" is the act of straightening one's arm by less than 15 degrees.
"Chucking illegally" is the act of straightening one's arm by more than 15 degrees.
The video footage of various deliveries from Ajmal, Narine, Senanayake and others clearly shows them straightening their arm. It is merely the degree of straightening that is in question. As long as you can see arm straightening going on then the ball is being thrown and not bowled.
It is simply a matter of semantics as to whether that is a "legal" throw or an "illegal" one...
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I think the other thing is to note, is that its highly unlikely the bloke is chucking it on purpose (would be fairly stupid if he is). More likely is that he's just developed too many bad habits! Not cheating, just a problem with his action!
Much as I want to believe that I refer you to the Murali argument.
To paraphrase "I have to bowl with a bent arm, its just the way I was born" except that he could bowl with a perfectly straight arm when he wanted to. Ergo he chose to use an action that was against the rules rather than one that was within them.
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"Chucking" is the act of straightening one's arm visibly in the delivery of the ball.
"Chucking legally" is the act of straightening one's arm by less than 15 degrees.
"Chucking illegally" is the act of straightening one's arm by more than 15 degrees.
The video footage of various deliveries from Ajmal, Narine, Senanayake and others clearly shows them straightening their arm. It is merely the degree of straightening that is in question. As long as you can see arm straightening going on then the ball is being thrown and not bowled.
It is simply a matter of semantics as to whether that is a "legal" throw or an "illegal" one...
Since we are assured that anything below 15 degrees is not visible to the human eye...
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"Chucking" is the act of straightening one's arm visibly in the delivery of the ball.
"Chucking legally" is the act of straightening one's arm by less than 15 degrees.
"Chucking illegally" is the act of straightening one's arm by more than 15 degrees.
The video footage of various deliveries from Ajmal, Narine, Senanayake and others clearly shows them straightening their arm. It is merely the degree of straightening that is in question. As long as you can see arm straightening going on then the ball is being thrown and not bowled.
It is simply a matter of semantics as to whether that is a "legal" throw or an "illegal" one...
I doubt anyone (or next to no one) bowls with a perfectly straight arm. I think where most say chucking here they are referring to doing so illegally.
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One thing I personally hate is when people claim someone is defimitely chucking. Fair enough, he clearly has an odd looking action but there is no way anybody can say for certain he is chucking. I'm not saying he's not, and its good that he's going to be tested, but accusing someone of 'cheating' without proof and no access to it is a big claim in my opinion.
You can say for certain he is chucking, the question is whether it's a legal chuck or not.
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Since we are assured that anything below 15 degrees is not visible to the human eye...
15 degrees probably is possible approximately, 15 degrees CHANGE with an arm moving in multiple directions at once is probably a bit harder.
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Really no point about trying to decide if Senanayaka chucking more than 15 degrees or not because you can't calculate the actual flex/extend on 2D images from youtube videos.
Yeah his action looks bad to the naked eye that's why it needs testing in a proper testing facility.
Obviously Ignorant people will call him a chucker without looking in to actual details , but you can't help those.
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Really no point about trying to decide if Senanayaka chucking more than 15 degrees or not because you can't calculate the actual flex/extend on 2D images from youtube videos.
Yeah his action looks bad to the naked eye that's why it needs testing in a proper testing facility.
Obviously Ignorant people will call him a chucker without looking in to actual details , but you can't help those.
This is what I'm trying to say :).
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15 degrees probably is possible approximately, 15 degrees CHANGE with an arm moving in multiple directions at once is probably a bit harder.
which is why anything that is a visible straightening of the arm should be banned.
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1. Go to youtube, Sky Go etc.
2. Search "Sennanayake"
3. Watch video.
4. See proof of chucking.
I consider your comments badly worded, factually inaccurate nationalistic piffle if you must know!
Did just that. Went on youtube, 1st ODI v England. Judge for yourself.
Just BEFORE point of release
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/839/hczi.jpg)
At point of release
(http://imageshack.com/a/img839/9378/k1ob.png)
Looks like a throw... but who knows. Doesn't take into account shoulder rotation etc...
People can make their own judgements.
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Personally I think the dismissal was within the rules so there can be little complaint. I also think Buttler should have been more careful as he'd already been warned.
Having said that I'm not so sure I'd have done the same as it does just feel wrong.
With regards to the chucking accusation I think it's best to leave it to the experts to monitor and decide if he should be banned. I would however say that chucking it isn't doing him a lot of good as he seems very much to be a journeyman spinner rather than a star. 37 wickets at 33.56 with a strike rate of 44.4 is worse than others including supposed inferior English spinners like Swann. In fact tredwell has a lot more wickets in less ODI deliveries and at a better average and strike rate.
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Much as I want to believe that I refer you to the Murali argument.
To paraphrase "I have to bowl with a bent arm, its just the way I was born" except that he could bowl with a perfectly straight arm when he wanted to. Ergo he chose to use an action that was against the rules rather than one that was within them.
He was tested in bio mechanic labs and well documented that he has a birth defect of a bent arm , and even he did a video where Mark Nicholas trying to extend his arm to check if that is actually true or not.
oh no.. so you say it is straight by just looking at 2D youtube video? okay
http://youtu.be/1HZBukHqNxk (http://youtu.be/1HZBukHqNxk)
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No, as if your bat is grounded in the crease then you are still inside the crease.
In that case Tim I can't see why the silly beggar didn't use that technique - the walking bat drag is good enough for most club cricketers.
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Since we are assured that anything below 15 degrees is not visible to the human eye...
Except that isn't the case, and wasn't where the 15 degrees statement came from!
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1. Go to youtube, Sky Go etc.
2. Search "Sennanayake"
3. Watch video.
4. See proof of chucking.
I consider your comments badly worded, factually inaccurate nationalistic piffle if you must know!
are those youtube videos proof from ICC after testing on his action was completed?how awfully ignorant and blatantly silly are you?
ignorant to the fact that i genuinely asked for proof and silly to the fact you tell me videos uploaded on youtube by some random is enough proof to prove Senanayeka is a chucker?i feel sorry for you.
Every single piece of video footage shows him chucking it. The question is not whether he is chucking it, rather whether he is chucking it within the rules (less than 15 degrees), or outside of the rules (more than 15 degrees).
no video shows him chucking it.to be called a chuck it has to exceed 15 degrees.he has not been proven to be bowling with an arm bent over 15 degrees.therefore no video shows him chucking.
Love it - an arson of deliveries. That'll really start a fire...But yes, we have never had a spinner acheive what Sennanayake has acheived - namely convince his national authorities to let him chuck the ball in international cricket. HAd we developed such a genius talent we would surely have...erm...banned him or...erm...got him to bowl within the rules...
so Johan Botha,Saeed Ajmal,Mohommad Hafeez,Murali and now Senanayeka have all done well to convince their authorities to let them chuck in international cricket?and continued to bamboozle you sorry English chaps even after being tested?
you poor soul.
no wonder why for some reason everytime i see a comment from you,i unintentionally read out your username as "moronic"
"Something no English spinner has been ablet o achieve" - Doesn't matter what you bowl it's about taking the wickets, yes the wily subcontinental spinners give us headaches but I seem to remember a certain English spinner picking up 10 wickets in a test IN Sri Lanka circa 2011, I'm also sure of him ending up as the number 1 ranked ODI bowler around that time? I'm also fairly sure he broke 250 test wickets too (Which has only been achieved by two Sri Lankan bowlers to date?)...so yeah, good job we don't produce world class spinners.
what is the amount of Test cricket England play and what is the amount of Test cricket Sri Lanka play?so your argument about how many Sri Lankans have taken 250 test wickets is as sorry as the barmy army right now.as for Swann being ranked number 1 bowler in the world,good for him.didnt look world class material in the last ashes did he?everyone has their purple patch.Nuwan Kulasekara was ranked number 1 in the world before Swanna was.Kula is still playing.where is Swann now?i genuinely feel for you guys.
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no video shows him chucking it.to be called a chuck it has to exceed 15 degrees.he has not been proven to be bowling with an arm bent over 15 degrees.therefore no video shows him chucking.
I beg to disagree, technically chuck=throw. If you are visibly straightening the arm, no matter to what degree, you are throwing. The difference is that in the last 10 years it has become okay to visibly throw the ball when bowling, up to a 15 degree limit, whereas in the preceding 350 years, it wasn't.
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How about we wait until he is tested. Then you guys can start arguing about whether he chucks or not. This is feeling like a court case at the moment, with the prosecution against a lawyer. If he is proven to be chucking, he is chucking. If not, then he is free to bowl. His action is different, so there will always be people who say that he is chucking, and the test is out there to prove it. Stop taking things personally, and wait until the test (that he will hopefully bowl normally in)!
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are those youtube videos proof from ICC after testing on his action was completed?how awfully ignorant and blatantly silly are you?
ignorant to the fact that i genuinely asked for proof and silly to the fact you tell me videos uploaded on youtube by some random is enough proof to prove Senanayeka is a chucker?i feel sorry for you.
no video shows him chucking it.to be called a chuck it has to exceed 15 degrees.he has not been proven to be bowling with an arm bent over 15 degrees.therefore no video shows him chucking.
so Johan Botha,Saeed Ajmal,Mohommad Hafeez,Murali and now Senanayeka have all done well to convince their authorities to let them chuck in international cricket?and continued to bamboozle you sorry English chaps even after being tested?
you poor soul.
no wonder why for some reason everytime i see a comment from you,i unintentionally read out your username as "moronic"
what is the amount of Test cricket England play and what is the amount of Test cricket Sri Lanka play?so your argument about how many Sri Lankans have taken 250 test wickets is as sorry as the barmy army right now.as for Swann being ranked number 1 bowler in the world,good for him.didnt look world class material in the last ashes did he?everyone has their purple patch.Nuwan Kulasekara was ranked number 1 in the world before Swanna was.Kula is still playing.where is Swann now?i genuinely feel for you guys.
I am struggling to understand your incredibly ignorant and condescending conversation. Correct me if I am wrong but this only goes further to nailing down your xenophobic views on international cricket and, by your insults, people who are not from 'your' country.
However, please continue as I am sure it is giving everyone a good laugh at how pathetically childish someone can be when a genuine discussion topic is posed.
Maybe next time you feel sorry for someone, look at all those good Sri Lankan spinners who are bypassed by someone who, for the majority of his bowling action (the rest to be proved), bends his arm more than the average darts player. It must be incredibly frustrating for them to grow up bowling properly for someone just to come in and do what he does.
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I beg to disagree, technically chuck=throw. If you are visibly straightening the arm, no matter to what degree, you are throwing. The difference is that in the last 10 years it has become okay to visibly throw the ball when bowling, up to a 15 degree limit, whereas in the preceding 350 years, it wasn't.
I agree with you, with chucking the ball meaning that his arm may be over the 15 degree limit
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I like Herath - he's a nice spinner.
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Except that isn't the case, and wasn't where the 15 degrees statement came from!
I was under the impression that a lot of players were bending to 15 degrees and then became a cut off point along with the bio mechanical input that it's nearly impossible to bowl without some flexion.
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I like Herath - he's a nice spinner.
Agreed matey!
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On a side note , Did anyone see Joe Root's trigger gone wrong with him being stuck halfway whilst the ball being bowled ?.
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Didn't realise this until I just read it but I think this is incredibly poor.
Senanyke was the only SL player or coach who didn't come down and shake hands with England players and coaches after the game. Once England had gone back to the dressing room he came down and celebrated with is team.
I think this is really poor, you've just beaten a team in a series, you go shake their hand.
Unless you've been rushed from the ground to hospital there are no excuses.
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I am struggling to understand your incredibly ignorant and condescending conversation. Correct me if I am wrong but this only goes further to nailing down your xenophobic views on international cricket and, by your insults, people who are not from 'your' country.
However, please continue as I am sure it is giving everyone a good laugh at how pathetically childish someone can be when a genuine discussion topic is posed.
Maybe next time you feel sorry for someone, look at all those good Sri Lankan spinners who are bypassed by someone who, for the majority of his bowling action (the rest to be proved), bends his arm more than the average darts player. It must be incredibly frustrating for them to grow up bowling properly for someone just to come in and do what he does.
calling me ignorant are you?how ignorant are you to the fact that the bowlers you accuse of chucking are perfectly permitted by the ICC to bowl in international matches?
people who are not from "my" country you say?well.no.basically any bowler who your batsman cant face has unfortunately had to go through this horror.first it was Murali,then Ajmal and now poor Senanayeka.some people on this forum went as far as questioning Lasith Maling's bowling action.why?because he won us games that England could have won.
it must be incredibly frustrating for your batsman to face local spinners who are at best net bowlers (bar a limited few) compared to subcontinental standards and then face real quality spinners,right?instead to accusing ICC approved bowlers,it might be a wise move to steal another few batting coaches from countries who are performing well at the moment and maybe negotiating an under-the-table deal with a subcontinental mystery spinner to come down to the UK and bowl day in day out to your batsman in the nets.might prove to be a good investment cos accusing opposition players is sure as hell not helping the sorry English team.
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I like Herath - he's a nice spinner.
voice of calm as always brucie
reading this I thought jeet was back (for you older members)
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voice of calm as always brucie
reading this I thought jeet was back (for you older members)
Who needs a voice of calm, this is much more fun ;) I love it when stuff like this happens!
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please can we stop the petty name calling.
I think it is reasonable any action is questioned - and it is certainly not a racial thing and should not be taken that way.
For those who don't remember - the 15degree limit was introduced as that was the limit that the naked eye could not see flex in the elbow during the delivery.
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Who needs a voice of calm, this is much more fun ;) I love it when stuff like this happens!
must just be me getting old
having played a very high standard of cricket when younger against certain international players who were proing at the time the action on tv looks worse than in real life but we will see when he is tested
the whole bent arm spinner thing is because we coach it out or stamp it out as we have had very good bent arm bowlers who could bowl ball both ways (I have seen them) but they are told by counties and so called decent coaches that they will never make a cricketer bowling like that so they change
its legal now so lets do it as you can change action in testing it just seems we are getting left behind by not embracing this as it is going to stay so adapt or perish
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I think testing is a farce as the action can be totally adjusted by the bowler because he doesn't want to be found to be chucking, which in my opinion 90% of the spinners today who have suspect actions are chuckers... Simply my opinion
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I beg to disagree, technically chuck=throw. If you are visibly straightening the arm, no matter to what degree, you are throwing. The difference is that in the last 10 years it has become okay to visibly throw the ball when bowling, up to a 15 degree limit, whereas in the preceding 350 years, it wasn't.
i beg to disagree. for all these years people were not within the old limits. that was proved by ICC. that is why they changed the limits. saying stuff like in the past zillion years, doesn't make the argument any more sound...
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who needs to watch Game of Thrones, when we have this. gripping, intense, and equally violent !
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i beg to disagree. for all these years people were not within the old limits. that was proved by ICC. that is why they changed the limits. saying stuff like in the past zillion years, doesn't make the argument any more sound...
If you look at the history of the limits relating to what was defined as a chuck, the laws evolved as follows:
Overarm bowling was legalised in 1864. From this point, straightening the arm was determined by the onfield umpires, visually.
In the 1990s, some 135 years after overarm bowling was legalised, the 10 degrees for fast bowlers, 7.5 degrees for medium pacers and 5 degrees for spinners rule was introduced. This followed testing that demonstrated that it was impossible to bowl without flexing the arm to some extent. The margin of error in the measurements leading to these limits was 1 degree.
During 2000-2003, a study was undertaken looking at a number of elite fast bowlers that showed there was an average of 9 degrees of flex with some getting 10-15. The margin for error in these tests was 3 degrees, suggesting that the range being observed could be 0 to 18 degrees. This is what initiated the review into what was an illegal action.
Note that in both these cases, none of the bowlers were being visually called for throwing.
Following this, during a number of competitions, bowlers were observed and measured and during the 2004 Champions Trophy, all bowlers had 3D video analysis undertaken. The result? The average extension of a normal, seemingly legal delivery was 8-10 degrees for all bowler types. The were almost no examples of zero flexion.
In 2005, the limit was chosen after considering biomechanical findings from 130 pace and spin bowlers, the scientific issues with measurement, and that bowling actions considered to be "throw-like", or illegal, were usually measured to be well above 15 degrees of elbow extension, often in the 20 to 30 degree range.
So, okay, it isn't 350 years of cricket, but the point remains. it is only in the past 20 or so years that any measurement at all has been put in place, and even then, the experimental method of determining whether something is legal or not still has a degree of error that, in partical physics, for example, you wouldn't consider as even useful (10%-20% is a massive margin for error!).
Essentially what this means is that when it was a question of onfield umpires simply going on visual perspective, far fewer people would bowl a delivery that could be interpreted visibly as a chuck. The consequence of a limit is that, you can throw the ball bowl with an elbow extension up to 15 degrees, which is visible, and if you do it to a greater extent (>15 degrees) on the pitch, but can replicate less than or equal to 15 degrees in the lab, you get away with it.
So I am afraid your "Saying stuff like..." method of discussion misses the point. When the only measure is the human eye, the risk of bowling something that may transgress is significantly higher than where the definition is laid down as a set of rules which have a wide base as a result of the margin for error involved. Or more simply, you can push a clear set of rules right to the limit. Anyone for a mankad...?
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who needs to watch Game of Thrones, when we have this. gripping, intense, and equally violent !
But no nudity!! :o
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It would be nice, too, if England simply stopped talking about the spirit of cricket. It is not relevant when their batsmen decline to walk. It is not relevant when their batsmen, in fighting for a draw, change their gloves and ask for drinks in order to use up time. It is not relevant when their bowlers sledge or try to persuade the umpire to change a ball that is not swinging. And it is not relevant when they lure coaches from opposition teams weeks before they face them in a series.
All such issues are seen - right or wrong - as part and parcel of the professional game. So to talk of spirit only when they lose leaves them looking weak, graceless and hypocritical. Only by confronting their failings and not grasping for excuses will they start to improve.
George Dobell on yesterday's issue
read more
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html)
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read more
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html[/url])
Dear all Sri Lanka fans....
Let's make it clear, the majority of cricketers that I know in England think that Buttler got what he deserved and that he was being a bit of a tool. While the press might talk of spirit of cricket, the reality is that no-one who plays thinks that this is a spirit if cricket issue, and the majority think that if you are going to invoke it, it's on Sri Lanka's side for warning him!
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Didn't realise this until I just read it but I think this is incredibly poor.
Senanyke was the only SL player or coach who didn't come down and shake hands with England players and coaches after the game. Once England had gone back to the dressing room he came down and celebrated with is team.
I think this is really poor, you've just beaten a team in a series, you go shake their hand.
Unless you've been rushed from the ground to hospital there are no excuses.
He was probably afraid of getting complaints about his hand shake with his bent arm , Ha ha
Hand chucking LOL
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read more
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-sri-lanka-2014/content/story/750231.html[/url])
I thought this struck the nail on the head with regards to England's ODI mentality. It's crying out for some freedom and flexibility from the top order.
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My theory is this.
Tit For Tat
England call player for "allegedly chucking"
He retaliates plain and simple Get a opportunity and bingo.
Who cares lets get on with the greatest game on the planet.
I do not think either case is right but happens and we move on to the Nitty Test series
I hope Kumar And Mahela leave me with some lasting memories to remember them by great cricketers.
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Obviously all umpires that called him for chucking were English, oh wait...
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no video shows him chucking it.to be called a chuck it has to exceed 15 degrees.he has not been proven to be bowling with an arm bent over 15 degrees.therefore no video shows him chucking.
Jimmy Saville has not been proven to be a paedophile...doesn't mean people won't judge on the immense weight of evidence...go figure...
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calling me ignorant are you?how ignorant are you to the fact that the bowlers you accuse of chucking are perfectly permitted by the ICC to bowl in international matches?
people who are not from "my" country you say?well.no.basically any bowler who your batsman cant face has unfortunately had to go through this horror.first it was Murali,then Ajmal and now poor Senanayeka.some people on this forum went as far as questioning Lasith Maling's bowling action.why?because he won us games that England could have won.
it must be incredibly frustrating for your batsman to face local spinners who are at best net bowlers (bar a limited few) compared to subcontinental standards and then face real quality spinners,right?instead to accusing ICC approved bowlers,it might be a wise move to steal another few batting coaches from countries who are performing well at the moment and maybe negotiating an under-the-table deal with a subcontinental mystery spinner to come down to the UK and bowl day in day out to your batsman in the nets.might prove to be a good investment cos accusing opposition players is sure as hell not helping the sorry English team.
Unfortunately your argument fails because he has been reported, it's not a forum opinion. He will get tested and adjust his action slightly then fall back into the same habits again.
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calling me ignorant are you?how ignorant are you to the fact that the bowlers you accuse of chucking are perfectly permitted by the ICC to bowl in international matches?
people who are not from "my" country you say?well.no.basically any bowler who your batsman cant face has unfortunately had to go through this horror.first it was Murali,then Ajmal and now poor Senanayeka.some people on this forum went as far as questioning Lasith Maling's bowling action.why?because he won us games that England could have won.
it must be incredibly frustrating for your batsman to face local spinners who are at best net bowlers (bar a limited few) compared to subcontinental standards and then face real quality spinners,right?instead to accusing ICC approved bowlers,it might be a wise move to steal another few batting coaches from countries who are performing well at the moment and maybe negotiating an under-the-table deal with a subcontinental mystery spinner to come down to the UK and bowl day in day out to your batsman in the nets.might prove to be a good investment cos accusing opposition players is sure as hell not helping the sorry English team.
let me point out some FACTS for you, us "sorry Englishmen" couldn't play Warne or McGrath, or Praveen Kumar, we still struggle to play Steyn, and Johnson for example, how many of them have been reported for chucking? Here is a Factual answer for you: NONE! that's because their actions were ENTIRELY and WHOLLY LEGAL. HOWEVER, there is a reoccurring theme with the bowlers that have all been reported; namely: Murali, Ajmal and Senanayake, and that is that there is a LARGE VISIBLE degree of flexion at the elbow during the delivery swing. Therefore, it is ENTIRELY reasonable that they are reported and investigated. Your argument is not only invalid, but also childish. Let me draw a comparison for you; what you are saying is akin to this: someone is murdered in the street, you happen to witness it, you then complain about being interviewed as you believe there is a prejudicial element, entirely FALSE. Now, furthermore, there is, as aforementioned, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF VIDEO EVIDENCE OF CLEAR FLEXION OCCURRING AT THE ELBOW, therefore, regardless of your nationalistic piffle, he does, BY DEFINITION, throw the ball in his delivery. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS LEGAL IS ANOTHER QUESTION. However. It is an absolutely unquestionable fact that he does indeed CHUCK.
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merely some of the aforementioned evidence:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/RXWvtHxjfhU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
pause at 0:28, 1:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZqFdWLmGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZqFdWLmGw)
pause at 0:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIqqfg3Ae4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIqqfg3Ae4)
pause at 0:09 and probably worst of the lost, pause at 0:32
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So the argument about chucking and whether it is around 'race'.
I will provide James Kirtley as an example.
He was white, he was English, he was banned.
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merely some of the aforementioned evidence:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/RXWvtHxjfhU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
pause at 0:28, 1:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZqFdWLmGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZqFdWLmGw)
pause at 0:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIqqfg3Ae4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIqqfg3Ae4)
pause at 0:09 and probably worst of the lost, pause at 0:32
Which shows nothing (can't see the first due to the embed attempt) :D.
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look up Harold Rhodes too.
he was the finest coach I have ever had. he also had a double joined elbow, which meant he had a visable flex at times. his career suffered as a result.
www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/19372.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/19372.html)
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look up Harold Rhodes too.
he was the finest coach I have ever had. he also had a double joined elbow, which meant he had a visable flex at times. his career suffered as a result.
[url=http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/19372.html]www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/19372.html[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/19372.html[/url])
A guy that I worked with faced Harold Rhodes in a charity game when he would have been rising 50 and said that he was still uncomfortably brisk off about five paces. Most in the midlands thought that he was treated shamefully.
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A guy that I worked with faced Harold Rhodes in a charity game when he would have been rising 50 and said that he was still uncomfortably brisk off about five paces. Most in the midlands thought that he was treated shamefully.
He was certainly uncomfortably brisk for a 14 year old of 5 paces in his 60's!!
He was also astonishingly accurate and able to bowl the confidence boosting half volley and follow it up with the one that took the edge/middle stump next ball!!
Sorry for the digression - but I attribute most of my cricketing success to the help he gave me as a 14/15 year old.
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That sort of accuracy was the Derbyshire way at the time, He came in at the end of the Les Jackson Cliff Gladwin era - you might enjoy this Buzz -
http://derbyshirecricket.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/an-interview-with-harold-rhodes-part-2.html (http://derbyshirecricket.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/an-interview-with-harold-rhodes-part-2.html)
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So the argument about chucking and whether it is around 'race'.
I will provide James Kirtley as an example.
He was white, he was English, he was banned.
Maurice Holmes, Geoff Cope, the lad whose name I forget at Gloucestershire.
And none of them had an action half as dodgy as MuchicHuckalot or Senanayanke
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This is from the interview with Harold Rhodes - talking about bowling in the 60's!
The issues over your bowling action are well known and the general consensus appears to be that you were offered up as a scapegoat at a time when there was a crackdown on obvious offenders around the globe?
Without a doubt. The cricket authorities were clamping down on throwers from around the world, all of them having the same thing in common. They all had an open-chested action that 'stopped' as they released the ball from a splay-footed stance. They all had a really quick ball, which was the one that was dangerous, of course. People like Charlie Griffith, Ian Meckiff and Geoff Griffin were called and with good reason when you see the photographs of them in action. With West Indians, Australians and South Africans being called, there was seen to be a need for English cricket to be 'cleaning up' its act and I was the fall guy, if you like.
My action was always side-on, what has always been regarded as the 'classic' style, and to throw from that position would have been impossible. Yet I was called to see a film that had been taken of my action from a mid-on position in the stand and I agreed it didn't look good. Similar films of such great bowlers as Harold Larwood and Ray Lindwall did them no favours either and it was the angle, rather than the action, that was the problem.
I asked the people at Lords to film the man who was regarded as having the best action in the game from the same place, so they filmed Fred Trueman. He looked as if he threw too, which proved my point!
The law at the time I was first no-balled allowed umpires to call bowlers if they felt there was something DIFFERENT about their action and that's why Paul Gibb no-balled me. Yet when George Cochrane, a specialist from Derby Royal Infirmary, proved to them that I had hyper-extension of the elbow – that the arm went past straight - they still didn't clear me. This was in 1961 and it was seven more years before they finally did. It was too little, too late.
In 1965, I was top of the national bowling averages and the media were calling for me to return to the England team. I firmly believe that the people at Lords got umpire Syd Buller to one side and told him that he needed to help them out of a tricky situation and no ball me in the South Africa tour match at Chesterfield.
I knew Syd and we got on pretty well before then, but he was never the same afterwards. Ironically, he umpired in my previous Test match, when I bowled 46 overs! He never saw a thing wrong with my action, nor had he at many other county matches at which he had officiated.
It was all very, very strange and immensely frustrating.
I know that West Indian spinner Sonny Ramadhin was a thrower, but kept his sleeves buttoned to stop people seeing his elbow clearly. Was that never suggested to you as an option?
No it wasn't and I wouldn't have done it, because I was totally convinced of my innocence. There were other spinners whose quest for turn saw their elbow bend more than was allowed though, Tony Lock perhaps being the best known.
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Going slightly off track, one of the major problems in the 60's, which caused a rule change in 1963, was that either front or back foot had to be within the crease on delivery, which encouraged bowlers to develop an exaggerated drag technique with their back foot, while their front foot was well down the wicket, some bowling quick from an estimated 18 yards.
'A six-foot five-inch "Blond Giant", Gordon Rorke was the fastest Australian bowler and accused of throwing by the English press, but this paled beside his excessive dragging. With his gigantic seven-foot stride and dragging his rear foot a yard over the crease he could be only eighteen yards from the batsman when he finally delivered the ball and at times seemed impossible to score from.[1][2][3] Fred Trueman was no balled for dragging his foot a couple of inches over the crease and wrote "It was really annoying as this umpire seemed to allow Gordon Rorke to bowl with both his feet over the front line!".[4] One picture showed him with his rear foot past the bowling crease before he had even begun to drag.[5] Colin Cowdrey joked "I was frightened that he might tread on my toes".[6]'
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What, Lock was a chucker??? Well I never! :o
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/current/story/750565.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/current/story/750565.html)
ICC look set to investigate suspicious bowling actions a lot more and also change the rules for Umpire's on questioning if someone is a chucker.
Also going to set up testing centre's outside of the one in Australia at the moment (Although I believe Senanyke is going to be tested in Cardiff this weekend)
But the exciting thing is:
They tested bowlers wearing sleeves in the U19 UAE cup earlier this year and hope to have it tested and approved by 2016.
This would clear everything up if these bowlers wear sleeves, unless their host nation refused it of course. Which would make them look very suspicious IMO.
I wonder if when wearing the sleeve it could report a no ball in real time. In the premier league, the goal line technology lights a green or red light on the refs watch within 1/4 of a second to say goal or not so it wouldn't hold the game up.
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Stick sensors on suspect bowlers in games and we'll prove who is chucking. Also reduce the flex limit and force bowlers to bowl with straighter arms. No harm in that at all. I bet most bowlers are between 0-10 degrees and it's only the odd bowler who is above it.
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Stick sensors on suspect bowlers in games and we'll prove who is chucking. Also reduce the flex limit and force bowlers to bowl with straighter arms. No harm in that at all. I bet most bowlers are between 0-10 degrees and it's only the odd bowler who is above it.
One of the cricinfo articles mentioned McGrath reached up to 13 and Brett Lee up to 14 at times!
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One of the cricinfo articles mentioned McGrath reached up to 13 and Brett Lee up to 14 at times!
Their issue was hyperextension - rather than a deliberate throw.
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One of the cricinfo articles mentioned McGrath reached up to 13 and Brett Lee up to 14 at times!
This is a common misinterpretation though - they, along with most of the fast bowlers tested (Shoaib Akhtar was the most famous), had a change of angle between 8-14 degrees, but it came from the arm straightening from a hyper-extended rather than bent position, which is rather different in its potential effects to a throwing action.
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I just watched a youtube video about a 'mystery spinner' going through his variations, is it just me or does it look like he doesn't chuck any of them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eo4brwbkpQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eo4brwbkpQ)
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Wasn't that the kid they picked from nowhere in th Wt20 in SL the other year?
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carrom ball looked sligtly chucked, rest looked awesome to be honest, much better than bloody cheating senanayake
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Wasn't that the kid they picked from nowhere in th Wt20 in SL the other year?
Yes, he is not doing well in first class cricket in SL currently so been out of the team after that WT20
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Our sub continental brethren always view the chucking issue as a "racist" issue.
It isn't. It is simply a case of that on the subcontinent, kids who are throwing are allowed to get through the system all the way to international level without any remedial action taken.
In the racist white countries, usually bent arms are coached out of offending bowlers...and if they are not, they are suspended sooner or later.
Ian Meckiff had a straighter arm than Murali etc and was banished from all cricket.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/the-meckiff-mystery-lives-20121110-2957l.html (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/the-meckiff-mystery-lives-20121110-2957l.html)
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/image/175579.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/image/175579.html)
As for Murali having a medical condition that did not enable him to straighten his arm...what codswallop! To bowl leg spin, you can only do it with a straight arm. You simply cannot chuck a leg break. Here is Murali showing that he actually COULD bowl with a straight arm...he simply chose not to for the majority of his career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUXgc1rLMQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUXgc1rLMQ)
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As for Murali having a medical condition that did not enable him to straighten his arm...what codswallop! To bowl leg spin, you can only do it with a straight arm. You simply cannot chuck a leg break. Here is Murali showing that he actually COULD bowl with a straight arm...he simply chose not to for the majority of his career:
Condition of his arm explained , and Mark Nicholas trying to extend it himself.
http://youtu.be/1HZBukHqNxk (http://youtu.be/1HZBukHqNxk)
Leg break getting called (watch from 3.25) , but you say leg breaks cannot be chucked, Which bring questions about the umpire and his motives..
http://youtu.be/U-bajS1SZiQ (http://youtu.be/U-bajS1SZiQ)
in another thread tim2000 says leg break can be chucked, I tried but I can't do that. but maybe others can. who knows.
Simply not true. Try it. If you flex your elbow you can increase the twisting action through your wrist, so it's very possible...
Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
Also it's not the bend which cause issues, it's the flex .