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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Buzz on May 26, 2021, 01:00:19 PM
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Am very surprised that there isn't a thread on this already, but it is test matche week next week and the Kiwis have come to thump the motley crew that England will be putting out.
With the ECB giving priority to a national t20 competition, rather than test matches, it means that a load of first choice players are out. Add to that a comical injury list (pray for Ben Foakes who tore his hammy dancing in his socks in the Surrey dressing room).
There random selection generator function has been picked and we now have Haseeb and Bilbo Billings in the test bubble.
Apparently some colt called Bracey will keep wicket.
So the team for next week will be (don't @ME with your suggestions, this will be the team)
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Rooooooot
Pope
Lawrence
Bracey
Overton
Stone
Broad
Anderson.
If I were the Kiwis I would be going we should win every test here... The England team will need to find a way to score some runs. Which won't be easy.
Also Kane Williamson will make watching the matches OK.
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Where’s Parky??
I think I would give Hameed a go rather than Burns. I’d also go for Robinson over Overton.
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Burns has been really consistent recently, Hameed scored half his runs for the season in one game.
Overton is probably a better bat than Robinson, with their usual options at 8 not available I'd assume that Overton is seen as a better replacement for that role.
I'd like to see Robinson play personally, think with a batsman as good as Bracey at 7 they could afford to bat Robinson at 8 given that his batting returns haven't been awful in comparison to Overton.
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Aside from the squad, the big news is that the Edgbaston test will have up to 18,000 spectators. I bought a ticket through hope rather than expectation for Day 1 and I got the details through of the procedures needed to get into the ground. A negative PCR test and a consent form is obligatory. But no face mask when in your seat. It will be an interesting experience.
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As bigger fan of hameed as I am, if England wanted a notts opener they've picked the wrong one...
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Saw the BBC headline Foakes out of test and was getting ready for a rant on here until it said he slipped on the dressing room floor. Same thing happened to Crawley these floors need sorting!! :)
If they have got Hameed in just to be around the squad then great, well done England. He needs a good season before he plays again. With Burns and Sibley named I expect them both to play.
Rather than Overton I would like Robinson to be given a chance, not as quick as Overton but he's clearly quality from his County record. Overton I've read has improved a lot so they are both good picks.
Bit baffled by Billings being in, Stokes out yes, hes not cover for Stokes and he can't bowl. Don't make sense to me.
Lastly, once again, yet again, England say the whole summer is getting ready for the Ashes....we really must stop doing this and focus on two good teams coming here this summer
Agree with Buzz, the New Zealanders will be here to win and they are a decent side. The first series of the summer could be close.
We still....are too reliant on Root to get us a score, he is our best batter clearly, but we will need runs on the board.
Bracey set to play by the look of it.
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Foakes is out so surely Billings has come in as the back up keeper not as a replacement for Stokes. Same with Hameed, presumebaly Bracey was going to be backup for keeper or top 3 spot and now he will be keeping then Hameed is that backup.
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Saw the BBC headline Foakes out of test and was getting ready for a rant on here until it said he slipped on the dressing room floor. Same thing happened to Crawley these floors need sorting!! :)
If they have got Hameed in just to be around the squad then great, well done England. He needs a good season before he plays again. With Burns and Sibley named I expect them both to play.
Rather than Overton I would like Robinson to be given a chance, not as quick as Overton but he's clearly quality from his County record. Overton I've read has improved a lot so they are both good picks.
Bit baffled by Billings being in, Stokes out yes, hes not cover for Stokes and he can't bowl. Don't make sense to me.
Lastly, once again, yet again, England say the whole summer is getting ready for the Ashes....we really must stop doing this and focus on two good teams coming here this summer
Agree with Buzz, the New Zealanders will be here to win and they are a decent side. The first series of the summer could be close.
We still....are too reliant on Root to get us a score, he is our best batter clearly, but we will need runs on the board.
Bracey set to play by the look of it.
Billings is probably in as he can act as a back-up keeper. With Bairstow, Buttler and Foakes unavailable there’s not exactly many options for keepers with international experience.
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Billings is probably in as he can act as a back-up keeper. With Bairstow, Buttler and Foakes unavailable there’s not exactly many options for keepers with international experience.
Yes I guess that is it. I didn't think Billings kept in the longer form for Kent, just the limited overs games.
There has to be back up of some sort thou so that must be the reason.
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Little to zero news about it here in NZ and feels a bit funny to think we are playing next week. Rugby is in full swing so all of the attention goes there.
Most of our lads haven't played for months so I think it will be pretty close.
Like Buzz said. Watching Kane is probably the only reason I will get up in the night to watch it.
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Yes I guess that is it. I didn't think Billings kept in the longer form for Kent, just the limited overs games.
There has to be back up of some sort thou so that must be the reason.
Wonder what the other Ollie Robinson thinks about it... OK, actually I more want to see them give debuts to two guys called Ollie Robinson in the same test. Once in a lifetime opportunity...
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I wonder if they see Billings as a kind of Butler figure. Coming in at 7 and smashing it around a little. Be a shame to play Bracey at 7 as he opens or bats at 3....could be another example of England playing players out of their natural position. Be great to see some test cricket again....just hope the weather is kind!
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I wonder if they see Billings as a kind of Butler figure. Coming in at 7 and smashing it around a little. Be a shame to play Bracey at 7 as he opens or bats at 3....could be another example of England playing players out of their natural position. Be great to see some test cricket again....just hope the weather is kind!
Ed Genius Smith has been given his P45, so hopefully there will be less crowbarring of ‘names’ in to the starting XI.
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Billings is a good fielder as well so imagine he'll be on 12th man duties. Bracey will be the keeper and will almost certainly bat 7.
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Hoping I can hear a bit sooner than next Tuesday if I can book train tickets for Day 3
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Ooooooh - spinner or no spinner for England? It seems most of the chat is 4 seamers or 3 + Leach.
I feel, looking at the weather, no spinner might be a mistake - however does Root + Lawrence = 1 x Leach?
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Am very surprised that there isn't a thread on this already, but it is test matche week next week and the Kiwis have come to thump the motley crew that England will be putting out.
With the ECB giving priority to a national t20 competition, rather than test matches, it means that a load of first choice players are out. Add to that a comical injury list (pray for Ben Foakes who tore his hammy dancing in his socks in the Surrey dressing room).
There random selection generator function has been picked and we now have Haseeb and Bilbo Billings in the test bubble.
Apparently some colt called Bracey will keep wicket.
So the team for next week will be (don't @ME with your suggestions, this will be the team)
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Rooooooot
Pope
Lawrence
Bracey
Overton
Stone
Broad
Anderson.
If I were the Kiwis I would be going we should win every test here... The England team will need to find a way to score some runs. Which won't be easy.
Also Kane Williamson will make watching the matches OK.
Good guess @Buzz - but you’re a little off ;)
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I cannot wait to see Joe Root turn his arm in those sunglasses. Glorious.
Broad and Anderson together again, normality restored...
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Seems a bit strange that Leach was dropped. Poor chap bowled his nuts off in India and was impressive. Also considering how roasting hot it’s been recently.
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Excited to see how Robinson goes if nothing else.
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Gonna miss a proper spinner in this test i fear.
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England are going to be in trouble when Anderson and Broad call it a day, especially if Archer continues to have fitness issues. I don’t think Robinson, Overton, Mahmood are even remotely near their level.
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England are going to be in trouble when Anderson and Broad call it a day, especially if Archer continues to have fitness issues. I don’t think Robinson, Overton, Mahmood are even remotely near their level.
Robinson, Overton and Mahmood are much younger. Broad and Anderson weren't this good when they started their international careers either!
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Bit of a gift from Latham, but will take it
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Robinson, Overton and Mahmood are much younger. Broad and Anderson weren't this good when they started their international careers either!
Perhaps. However, Broad and Anderson were 20. Overton and Robinson are both 27. Mahmood is 24, but I don’t think he will ever be good enough for a sustained spot in an England side.
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Perhaps. However, Broad and Anderson were 20. Overton and Robinson are both 27. Mahmood is 24, but I don’t think he will ever be good enough for a sustained spot in an England side.
Look at Anderson's average for the first 6 years of his career and it's nowhere near as impressive as it is since. Broad likewise didn't consistently average well with the ball until 2013.
There's certainly value in experienced bowlers who know their game anyway.
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Robinson certainly not disgracing himself on debut, pretty handy first couple of test wickets.
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Really good for Robinson, very pleased.
He clearly gets people out in the Championship and don’t go for many runs.
Looks a pretty good batting surface at Lords too
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So far, its been the tale of two debutants; Conway and Robinson!
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Marvellous debut knock by Conway. Looks a fine player and impressive start in all three formats.
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Great knock on debut by Conway. Brings it up with a 6
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England running out of ideas already. Whoops.
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Understand why we had to leave out a spin option but it’s always a risk we will seem to samey...
Left arm away from the right hander and fairly accurate at least gives a different attacking option.
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This Conway chap is annoyingly good.
England have been annoyingly bad.
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Looks a very placid surface on which to bat. I don't think that England did a lot wrong with the ball.
I hope this isn't the sort of pitch we prepare when we play India
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Oh dear, there seems to be a storm over Robinson, he’s had problems in the past but it’s bad timing and the subject matter involved is highly sensitive in 2021.
I don’t know myself if something done at 18 can or should be used against him now, but do the ECB not check the background of anyone likely to play before they actually set foot on the field?
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Oh dear, there seems to be a storm over Robinson, he’s had problems in the past but it’s bad timing and the subject matter involved is highly sensitive in 2021.
I don’t know myself if something done at 18 can or should be used against him now, but do the ECB not check the background of anyone likely to play before they actually set foot on the field?
It's a difficult one... my thing is always people do stupid things when younger but it's the ... are they genuinely sorry or sorry they got caught and exposed... Or is he still a $%^* when in the company of his mates...
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Anyone know if highlights will be on terrestrial TV in the UK, I cannot seem to find them?
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Oh dear, there seems to be a storm over Robinson, he’s had problems in the past but it’s bad timing and the subject matter involved is highly sensitive in 2021.
I don’t know myself if something done at 18 can or should be used against him now, but do the ECB not check the background of anyone likely to play before they actually set foot on the field?
He shouldn’t have done it, but what’s really pathetic is the fact that some sad loser has either been sitting on them for the last 9 years for this specific day to come, or has trawled through 9 years of tweets in order to ruin his first day as a test player. If the ECB punish him in any way it will be an absolute disgrace. He was young and stupid - move on.
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Also more inclined to give the benefit to mistakes made at 18, I don't think it can be held against you for life.
The timing is awful thou, with the ECB today starting a new anti racism campaign headed up by the players.
Gut feeling here is this will blow up into a very big problem. Robinson in interviews I've read realises his unprofessional attititude got him sacked from Yorkshire, and wanted and did change his behaviour.
We know our media, they want to string someone up and how you are seen by the public has huge influence.image matters far more than it did in the past.
it will be interesting how the ECB deal with it, Robinson has apologised, that would of been enough a few years ago, don't know if it will be seen that way now.
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He shouldn’t have done it, but what’s really pathetic is the fact that some sad loser has either been sitting on them for the last 9 years for this specific day to come, or has trawled through 9 years of tweets in order to ruin his first day as a test player. If the ECB punish him in any way it will be an absolute disgrace. He was young and stupid - move on.
Agree. I don't like it either, it's underhand. Nothing came out when he was turning out in a Sussex match.
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ECB launches a new campaign to stamp out discrimination, always going to be someone out there to tarnish that
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Anyone know if highlights will be on terrestrial TV in the UK, I cannot seem to find them?
Weren't they on the BBC at 7pm? I thought I heard that. Maybe they meant available on I-player from 7pm?
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Weren't they on the BBC at 7pm? I thought I heard that. Maybe they meant available on I-player from 7pm?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000wnpf (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000wnpf)
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Also more inclined to give the benefit to mistakes made at 18, I don't think it can be held against you for life.
The timing is awful thou, with the ECB today starting a new anti racism campaign headed up by the players.
Gut feeling here is this will blow up into a very big problem. Robinson in interviews I've read realises his unprofessional attititude got him sacked from Yorkshire, and wanted and did change his behaviour.
We know our media, they want to string someone up and how you are seen by the public has huge influence.image matters far more than it did in the past.
it will be interesting how the ECB deal with it, Robinson has apologised, that would of been enough a few years ago, don't know if it will be seen that way now.
Thing is, most people aren’t racist and sexist when they’re eighteen.
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Is Conway technique similar to what Gary Palmer teaches?
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I'm struggling to get past the fact that he was 18/19. For me, that's pretty old to get away with this. 15 or 16, sure... but 18? Come on.
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Is Conway technique is similar to what Gary Palmer teaches?
I would say no. Conway just opens himself up a bit. Compare him and Sibley and you’ll see a huge difference.
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Thing is, most people aren’t racist and sexist when they’re eighteen.
True, but then a lot of eighteen year olds are dickheads in one way or another. Obviously not acceptable things to be saying, even if they're meant as a 'joke', but you look at the comments about him when he got binned from Yorkshire and comments from Sussex about him now and he does seem a very different person.
I can believe he's genuinely remorseful and ashamed - as he should be - as opposed to Overton who refuses to even acknowledge he made racist comments.
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Did England miss a trick by not picking a spinner. I know Joe Root rates himself as a spinner but I dont think he can fill in as a specialist. Unless its an absolute green top, I think a test side definitely needs a spinner to change things up and pose a different type of threat. Also, to hold up an end and dry up the runs. I assume that is the role NZ will expect Santner to play.
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Without Stokes or indeed Woakes available it's difficult to balance the side. Yes the forecast is good and Lords over the last few years is flat and hard work for the bowlers.
We need all the seamers in this game so yes....we also needed Leach for some variety and it might spin later on.
Probably...the only option England had here was to leave out the number 6 and play the extra bowler. That also unbalanced but without our allrounder it's always going to be tricky.
Woakes was our player of the year the year before last, played next to no cricket in 2020 and not available here. It's strange to the point of being against all logic.
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I guess Woakes needs to bide his time and wait for Anderson/Broad to retire. Its a shame really, someone of his quality not being considered for selection. Of course, picking him doesnt make sense if Anderson/Broad are playing.
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Not trying to excuse him, but I have heard comments more sexist than Robinson's tweet pretty much every time I have been in a dressing room ever.
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And let's not forget the Prime Minister we've got.
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Why am I dreading today
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No dread, they are decent so are India who come over as well.
We need to concentrate on the teams in front of us, hopefully then the coaches and players and press stop talking about the Ashes.
It happens time and again and as a fan I find it embarrassing to be honest.
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NZ are going to get 500+ here.
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TMS live text with a belter - "Henry Nicholls is like the Jordan Henderson of this New Zealand team. You won't mention him often but he's crucial and quietly effective".
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This is painful to watch
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Certainly better now! Funny old game...
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NZ are going to get 500+ here.
Hope you didn’t put too much on that 😁
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The danger with scratching around with no real purpose like Nicholls has done here is that you can wear a bowling attack down without taking advantage, then a few quick wickets and you don't have a score on the board to show for your hard. No matter how flat the pitch and how little lateral movement, you are always in the game if the opposition isn't putting scoreboard pressure on you
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Hope you didn’t put too much on that 😁
:D
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Good comeback from us, pleased for Robinson. I suspect a fallout once this test is done despite his apology, but he’s doing a good job on the field to put that out of mind
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Blimey, that was a terrible drop by Broad.
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Nice simple one for Braceys first test dismissal!
Robinson taken off with 4fer!
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Imagine nearing a 200 in your debut innings, and watching the number 11 swing for the fences on the other end...
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Does one of the England fielder have issues with left shoulder? Every time the ball passes on the left the fielder tries stop the ball with the right hand.
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Sigh
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Totally played down the wrong line
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This is going well.
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Struggling to see what sibley offers to this England side, for me there are better openers on the county circuit
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Struggling to see what sibley offers to this England side, for me there are better openers on the county circuit
He’s certainly getting in to some interesting positions. With the way he brings his bat down at such an angle, it’s nigh on impossible for him to redirect it and catch up to a ball that swings swings away. His technique is fundamentally flawed.
Crawley needs to get rid of that wafty off drive too… it might look great when he crunches the ball to the boundary, but it’s also getting him out too often.
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Sibley seems to be of those players that once in has the concentration to bat long, or the opposite he’s out early.
Not much in between. I guess you can take your pick which is better.
Burns seems the opposite often gets in but then out around 40-50 when the hard work is done.
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Personally I don't see anything between Sibley and Burns as test batsmen. They both have a questionable technique at this level which you would bank on experienced test bowlers to work them out. The only difference today is that Sibley is back in the shed for one shaved his off stump whereas Burns survived one that was crashing into his leg pole
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Sibley has also missed a huge amount of cricket due to injury recently, context to consider.
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not sure how ball tracking can say that the ball sibley was given out off was even feathering the stumps.
might be unpopular but once there are 2 umpires calls out of the 3 then surely it cant be out? especially when one of the major factors (hitting the stumps) was so vague in this case.
That said, he wouldnt have lasted much longer with the ball hooping around like that
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Good guess @Buzz - but you’re a little off ;)
Not my fault the selection was wrong.
😂
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not sure how ball tracking can say that the ball sibley was given out off was even feathering the stumps.
might be unpopular but once there are 2 umpires calls out of the 3 then surely it cant be out? especially when one of the major factors (hitting the stumps) was so vague in this case.
That said, he wouldnt have lasted much longer with the ball hooping around like that
Looked a bit rough to me, there’s many decisions you look at and just think it’s missing.
Whatever the argument about bigger bats, flatter tracks, not as good as the 80’s bowling attack-guys get given out nowadays and there’s no way on earth these decisions were given a few years ago.
In some ways it’s harder now to be a batsman with DRS and the umps giving a lot more decisions out.
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not sure how ball tracking can say that the ball sibley was given out off was even feathering the stumps.
might be unpopular but once there are 2 umpires calls out of the 3 then surely it cant be out? especially when one of the major factors (hitting the stumps) was so vague in this case.
That said, he wouldnt have lasted much longer with the ball hooping around like that
I assume that the area the ball pitches and the point of impact are fairly accurate as they they actual events, but the predictive element of where the ball would have gone had it not hit the pad has a margin of error.
Personally I would get rid of the umpire call element of the system when overturning decisions. I don't see that the on field decision should be determinative if you are backing the technology
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Who was the member that had a go at me saying Sibley would have a better test average than all NZ openers? I can't find the comment anywhere...
Rough call today mind you with that LBW but anyone could see he was going to struggle with that technique.
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I assume that the area the ball pitches and the point of impact are fairly accurate as they they actual events, but the predictive element of where the ball would have gone had it not hit the pad has a margin of error.
Personally I would get rid of the umpire call element of the system when overturning decisions. I don't see that the on field decision should be determinative if you are backing the technology
i would retain umpires call for things that are predictive, like hitting the stumps. but make add in a margin of say 10% of the ball must be hitting for it to out - even if already given. i dont like the 'once its given all it has to do is graze the stumps' as the technology isnt 100%
i think im correct that in football the middle of the ball has to cross the line, why cant they just use that for hitting the pads, and just remove umpires call again.
there was an interesting piece on sky at one of the county games with Nas and Wardy where they showed that umpires call effectively added an extra stump on either side.
I would like to see the use of DRS as simple as possible, to avoid all confusion
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I don't normally mind umpire's call but the double UC does feel like it should default to the batsman's favour.
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I don't normally mind umpire's call but the double UC does feel like it should default to the batsman's favour.
Totally agree with this!
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DRS has been good for cricket overall, but i believe they need to be open to changing it and winding it back and simplifying. i like the idea behind no balls but that needs to be a lot quicker, cant have bowlers getting to fine leg then being called back and having to reset the field.
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The proposed change of including the height of the bails in the DRS reviews and deciding how much of the ball was hitting the stumps is a step in the right direction I feel. Is that only for the WTC final or will it be a standard rule?
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there was an interesting piece on sky at one of the county games with Nas and Wardy where they showed that umpires call effectively added an extra stump on either side.
But surely the umpire should always have been including the edge of the ball hitting the edge of the stumps? So not really?
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if any umpire thinks the ball is just clipping the stumps then they shouldnt be giving it out, they could only be guessing at that point.
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if any umpire thinks the ball is just clipping the stumps then they shouldnt be giving it out, they could only be guessing at that point.
The Laws of Cricket state simply that the ball would have been hitting the wicket. No-mention of which part.
You could make an argument that an umpire, and even technology, can only ever be guessing?
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There is also nothing in the Laws of Cricket that says the benefit of the doubt should go to the batsman. This is simply an adopted convention.
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If you are taking away the edge of the stumps, surely you are making the wicket smaller?
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if any umpire thinks the ball is just clipping the stumps then they shouldnt be giving it out, they could only be guessing at that point.
Why not, it ball clips stumps during out bowled, it is out, same for lbw, as simple as that. If it misses stumps, DRS is there to save the batsman.
I am more worried about umpire margin of error (which is inconsistent) than DRS margin of error (which is consistent and fair to both teams at least) and umpires call having to stay despite DRS showing otherwise.
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In "far" past people used to say that " cricket is batsmen's game".
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Sigh
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That is appalling from Lawrence
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Oh for God sake
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I know this has been discussed and there are different views but Jeremy coney just commented the further you go across to off stump the more of an angle your bat comes down on.
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Same old story!
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Anyone still dropping burns?
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These reviews have been dreadful
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There is no perfect system but Anderson to Latham was right to review and not much difference between Sibleys wicket on first innings-both marginal, one out one not out.
I think DRS myself has taken out the absolute howlers and in that respect it's an improvement on just relying on umpires on the field
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Anyone still dropping burns?
Half the New Zealand team already have! :D
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It’s Robinson again he must know a suspension is round the corner and still contributing in this match.
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Burns got a little bit of fortune but he’s used his excellent red ball form to keep England in the match.
Burns last 7 red ball innings: 54 80 75 55 64 104* 132 decent by anyone’s standard.
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Burns got a little bit of fortune but he’s used his excellent red ball form to keep England in the match.
Burns last 7 red ball innings: 54 80 75 55 64 104* 132 decent by anyone’s standard.
Agree he is the safest of the ones being talked about as potentially not being good enough. Sibley and Crawley however are in need of runs and some form. Crawleys dismissal along with Lawrence in this test have been awful but Sibley just looks to me to be getting worse. Let’s hope they find some form in the next test and possible our 2nd innings depending what New Zealand choose to do tomorrow, which I guess will be okay sensibly for the first half hour and then look to go hard until lunch and then give them selves two sessions to try and bowl is out again.
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Burns knows how to score runs, he did a long stint of consistency for Surrey before he got picked perhaps because he has an individual technique that maybe England did not fancy.
Sibley in just the one innings was a bit unlucky in my view, we saw Latham survive and LBW that DRS showed was hitting the bails so it's a fine line these players play too these days.
Pope is one for me I'm a bit concerned about, massive talent at his age and every shot in the book. He's firmly in the middle order which at least in England has proved an easier place to bat.
He seems to struggle to impose himself early on and that's when your most vulnerable. I don't think I've seen a more talented young player in recent years but bowlers maybe know how to bowl at him now. Maybe he just needs one decent score and he will get momentum.
Thorpe and Trescothick are around the England side and I hope some of what they had can influence Pope.
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Malan can't be far away from the team on current form.
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Malan can't be far away from the team on current form.
He didn't get enough time first time round. Labelled a back foot player and a horses for courses player by ED Genius.
That didn't make any sense.
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199 for Yorkshire yesterday can't have harmed his chances
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Anyone still dropping burns?
I think everyone who could drop him did drop him! :D
Seriously, he showed more gumption than the youth in the middle order (and Crawley too for that matter) but he does need to push on and become more consistent rather than having one of these every ten tests to just squeak in.
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He didn't get enough time first time round. Labelled a back foot player and a horses for courses player by ED Genius.
That didn't make any sense.
Back foot player, maybe - though that equally applies to most of the current set up, Pope apart. As you say, Smith decided and was not for changing.
As for whether he will come back, I think the slight issue is whether he will get to play enough first class cricket to get a run of scores together.
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Malan needs to be in the test side. Ed Genius Smith is, and always will be, a know-it-all buffoon.
Crawley needs to work on his game. Malan at 3 until ZC knuckles down stops playing the wafty outside off stump rubbish. I think the 260 he made last year has done more harm than good to him.
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I think everyone who could drop him did drop him! :D
Seriously, he showed more gumption than the youth in the middle order (and Crawley too for that matter) but he does need to push on and become more consistent rather than having one of these every ten tests to just squeak in.
Perhaps another thread, but when did no.3 stop being part of the middle-order?
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Perhaps another thread, but when did no.3 stop being part of the middle-order?
I would always have said 3 was a top order batting slot.
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Agree he is the safest of the ones being talked about as potentially not being good enough. Sibley and Crawley however are in need of runs and some form. Crawleys dismissal along with Lawrence in this test have been awful but Sibley just looks to me to be getting worse. Let’s hope they find some form in the next test and possible our 2nd innings depending what New Zealand choose to do tomorrow, which I guess will be okay sensibly for the first half hour and then look to go hard until lunch and then give them selves two sessions to try and bowl is out again.
Looks like I called this spot on, big few hours for Sibley and Crawley I feel.
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Malan needs to be in the test side. Ed Genius Smith is, and always will be, a know-it-all buffoon.
Crawley needs to work on his game. Malan at 3 until ZC knuckles down stops playing the wafty outside off stump rubbish. I think the 260 he made last year has done more harm than good to him.
I would actually open with Crawley and drop Sibley but that could be my Kent hat on. Crawley is more attacking (when as you say not wafting outside off) and compliments Burns more than Sibley does.
This is of course if they continue with poor form
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Obviously not chasing this and I'd say the draw is the likely outcome, but fair play for them having a crack
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Labelled a back foot player and a horses for courses player by ED Genius.
How does one get labelled as back foot player or a front foot player? As far as I know, Malan plays the drives (front foot) as well as the cuts ands pulls (back foot) equally well, so trying to understand how this came about. I have seen Steve smith driving off the back foot mostly, so can understand if he is labelled as back foot player mainly, but not sure about Malan.
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Perhaps another thread, but when did no.3 stop being part of the middle-order?
When did it start being part of the middle order? I've always thought 1-3 or perhaps 1-4 is the top order, then 4 or 5 to 8 is the middle order.
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How does one get labelled as back foot player or a front foot player? As far as I know, Malan plays the drives (front foot) as well as the cuts ands pulls (back foot) equally well, so trying to understand how this came about. I have seen Steve smith driving off the back foot mostly, so can understand if he is labelled as back foot player mainly, but not sure about Malan.
The best description I have heard of this is the one Bob Woolmer offered, which centred on whether a player preferred to defend a length ball and work to leg off their front foot or with their weight back, by which standard Malan is not. It is more commonly used in the media to analyse a players scoring areas - so Cook, Gary Ballance and Malan, who are strong cutters and pullers of the ball, are all given that label, despite defending predominantly weight forward, whereas Joe Root, who sits back behind the crease, is not.
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That is village from Crawley
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That is village from Crawley
I was just about to type that!
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When did it start being part of the middle order? I've always thought 1-3 or perhaps 1-4 is the top order, then 4 or 5 to 8 is the middle order.
https://www.lexico.com/definition/middle_order (https://www.lexico.com/definition/middle_order)
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https://www.lexico.com/definition/middle_order (https://www.lexico.com/definition/middle_order)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_order_(cricket) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_order_(cricket))
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Crawley is average. His red ball stats indicate as much. He scored 39% of his test runs in one innings. Time to end experiment.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_order_(cricket) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_order_(cricket))
I was only suggesting that no.3 used to be (and still is by some) considered part of the middle-order.
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Crawley is average. His red ball stats indicate as much. He scored 39% of his test runs in one innings. Time to end experiment.
Wasn't Crawley picked because stats don't prove anything?
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Have England got this approach right? Or do we have a line up currently still settling down and not capable of making more of an effort?
Yes we are missing Stokes and maybe Butler but Williamson nevertheless has shown only New Zealand are willing to gamble for a possible test win..
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Have England got this approach right? Or do we have a line up currently still settling down and not capable of making more of an effort?
Yes we are missing Stokes and maybe Butler but Williamson nevertheless has shown only New Zealand are willing to gamble for a possible test win..
Think Kane judged it very well - he left a total that this England team would have had to bat out of their skins to reach, with a brilliant Root ton the only hope. With three of the top order on a pair, and arguably Burns the only one other than the captain now secure in his spot, it was never going to happen - there wasn't the option that you so often see in successful chases of a Stokes, Buttler or Bairstow jumping up the order on a whim and figuring you'd decide what the plan was once they'd batted.
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Disappointingly negative from England after an excellent declaration by Williamson. This has the feel of an England side that lacks courage with the first objective being looking to avoid defeat rather than looking to win
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Can't believe the criticism some have given them for not chasing it a bit harder, their bowling during that afternoon session was more often than not bang on the money, particularly Jamieson who bowled something like 6 maidens on the trot. Wasn't an easy pitch to score freely on, even if it was essentially a 4 day pitch. We've been crying for a pair of openers in Burns and Sibley for far too long and they've both shown us what they're capable of doing, but asking to set up a chase near 300? Nahhhh
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Ollie Robinson suspended.
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Williamson’s declaration was probably because England where missing Stokes and Buttler. We had a pretty flakey middle order here. I suspect had the two big guns been playing NZ probably wouldn’t have declared.
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If Robinson if replaced by Overton, which I think he will be, they will be replacing someone for posting stupid and offensive language on Twitter 9 years ago who has public ally apologised and regretted his actions, with a player guilty of racist abuse as a fully fledged adult who to this day denies what he said despite their being neutral witnesses(the umpire).
I'm not sure that makes any sense. If fact it doesn't.
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Disgusting decision from the ECB. I am disgusted.
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I certainly don’t condone the tweets however, Robinson had already been punished for them, he was sacked by Yorkshire. Struggling to see why an event that took place 8/9 years ago now costs the lad his international career and a further investigation is to be carried out. I guess this takes the pressure and eye off the ECB regarding their own potential racism case towards the umpires
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It was inevitable that he would be withdrawn from the next test and will now, like Overton, face a ban before returning to continue his career.
Sportsman are lucky that they get off with minor punishments for their indiscretions. In the real world people lose their jobs
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If the ECB want to promote diversity they could start with the MCC and Lords.
Upper class white male does not represent the multi racial London I have lived in for the last 50 years.
The hypocrisy is staggering.
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Anything to avoid talking about class.
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Disgusting decision from the ECB. I am disgusted.
In any other (semi lucrative) profession, he wouldn’t even have been hired. HR would have done a background check, found the tweets and rejected his application. In the grand scheme of things, he’s lucky that he’s a cricketer- will do some “learning”, apologize again, and be back in the fold.
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Given being a PRO Sportsman is such a lucrative and privileged career I do believe you do have to act accordingly because like it or not, you have more influence than you probably should. It looks like his first county realised this and fired him (rightly) but again, another county thinks 'wooo, we get a free bee player'.. They should have looked at his background and most certainly the ECB should have before even being considered for ANY form of ECB training groups or 2020/ODI or Test squads.
Sadly, I don't believe that the 'He was 18' is a valid argument because people know right from wrong. There are 'mistakes' and then there are 'mistakes' that you sadly, can't just erase and given the current world we live in.. you can't just ignore.
Sport is a privileged career and so needs to be treated as such given the money involved in sport. I would prefer to not see him darken any England door again and for his county to look at dropping him but I suspect he will do some 'learning' and be back and as most things in sport.. all forgiven after a few wickets or runs.
After all... One player was 'sacked' just for looking out of the window...... Another gets into fights.. another gets into fight, potentially some drugs etc.... ECB really do show no leadership or consistency. Poor show all round really
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I think rather than punishing him for something he did nearly ten years ago, the focus should be on using his experience to educate him and kids coming through about how making racist 'jokes' is a stepping stone to making vicious racist abuse acceptable.
I think a lot of young guys probably don't understand how making these types of comments normalises racism and eventually leads to people thinking it's okay to scream racist abuse in someone's face or assault somebody based on their race.
Hopefully the ECB use this as a chance to educate young players (and Robinson) about these things, rather than just hammering him to prove a point to corporate sponsors without taking any meaningful action to educate people and prevent future racist incidents.
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I think rather than punishing him for something he did nearly ten years ago, the focus should be on using his experience to educate him and kids coming through about how making racist 'jokes' is a stepping stone to making vicious racist abuse acceptable.
I think a lot of young guys probably don't understand how making these types of comments normalises racism and eventually leads to people thinking it's okay to scream racist abuse in someone's face or assault somebody based on their race.
Hopefully the ECB use this as a chance to educate young players (and Robinson) about these things, rather than just hammering him to prove a point to corporate sponsors without taking any meaningful action to educate people and prevent future racist incidents.
I mean, you're right.. ECB are doing it purely as a PR stunt.. However... By hammering him, you are sending the message out there that this sort of thing really is unacceptable. If you know you can do things and then maybe get a small fine, game or two off... but be back in earning the bucks then where is the deterrent ?
WEPL seem to be doing a PR stunt with regards to sledging/abuse.. Some lovely cards and words appearing from umpires at the start of the games so far this year... However, within about 6 balls of the game the sledging/abuse starts at/to or about the batsmen and nothing happens.. Amusing in a way and just proves that sadly, only punishments work. Saying things to people doesn't really work unless you are ACTIVELY enforcing.
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I appreciate Robinson has a public profile and carries the responsibility that goes with that, but I wish people would be more honest about how often they have heard these kind of 'jokes' and stop pretending to be shocked.
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It's only 23 years since women were first allowed in the pavillion at Lotd's. :o
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I mean, you're right.. ECB are doing it purely as a PR stunt.. However... By hammering him, you are sending the message out there that this sort of thing really is unacceptable. If you know you can do things and then maybe get a small fine, game or two off... but be back in earning the bucks then where is the deterrent ?
WEPL seem to be doing a PR stunt with regards to sledging/abuse.. Some lovely cards and words appearing from umpires at the start of the games so far this year... However, within about 6 balls of the game the sledging/abuse starts at/to or about the batsmen and nothing happens.. Amusing in a way and just proves that sadly, only punishments work. Saying things to people doesn't really work unless you are ACTIVELY enforcing.
Punishment doesn’t work mate. Look at the statistics, education and victim engagement are the only forms of punishment that show any success.
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Punishment doesn’t work mate. Look at the statistics, education and victim engagement are the only forms of punishment that show any success.
An educational course and education and tolerance is indeed the only way forward.
He made a mistake, it was 10 years ago and he’s publically apologised.
It’s turned into a witch hunt and moral grandstanding
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I saw Michael Holding's interview on this and it made sense.
I also think that young people by design are stupid and do some really stooooopid things. This discussion about handling past stupid behavior needs to happen and some concrete protocols need to be established. How do you address someone's actions when they were young and foolish? What about someone who continues to demonstrate bad behavior in their mature/grownup/adult years? How to leverage a public figure's star/celebrity status to help a cause instead of just depriving them of earnings and reputation? We are now 4-5 years into this cycle of public shaming and punishment; it is all just reactive posturing without any forethought. I'd rather see ICC/MCC proposing concrete protocols with clear guidelines for using start/celebrity to educate young and masses than punish one or two incidents here and there.
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I saw Michael Holding's interview on this and it made sense.
I also think that young people by design are stupid and do some really stooooopid things. This discussion about handling past stupid behavior needs to happen and some concrete protocols need to be established. How do you address someone's actions when they were young and foolish? What about someone who continues to demonstrate bad behavior in their mature/grownup/adult years? How to leverage a public figure's star/celebrity status to help a cause instead of just depriving them of earnings and reputation? We are now 4-5 years into this cycle of public shaming and punishment; it is all just reactive posturing without any forethought. I'd rather see ICC/MCC proposing concrete protocols with clear guidelines for using start/celebrity to educate young and masses than punish one or two incidents here and there.
This approach is far too sensible and well thought through, it'll never work!
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Totally agree, it has to be a wide ranging process, simply punishing someone for a mistake made years ago will do no good.
A second player is now under investigation and you wonder if this is now a free for all.
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Totally agree, it has to be a wide ranging process, simply punishing someone for a mistake made years ago will do no good.
A second player is now under investigation and you wonder if this is now a free for all.
Agreed 👍
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Looks like it’s now several players being looked into...
The ECB in their knee jerk reaction to punish someone will now have by the reports several cases to deal with.
Now Robinson has been suspended anyone else you would think must also be suspended.
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Morgan, Anderson and Buttler.
Dear world,
Please stop being so precious, and so quick to be outraged by anything and everything.
Kind regards,
SouthpawMark
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Morgan, Anderson and Buttler.
Dear world,
Please stop being so precious, and so quick to be outraged by anything and everything.
Kind regards,
SouthpawMark
Exactly, my man!
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Exactly, my man!
If the ECB decide to ban anyone who has ever said something non-pc, there’s a decent chance you will get called up to play in the ashes.
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Williamson in doubt for the next test due to an ongoing elbow issue. Not good considering his scores in the last match and the WTC final coming up.
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If the ECB decide to ban anyone who has ever said something non-pc, there’s a decent chance you will get called up to play in the ashes.
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA
There will be another 3 dozen threads about that/those experiences. Not sure people are ready for that yet. :D
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If the ECB decide to ban anyone who has ever said something non-pc, there’s a decent chance you will get called up to play in the ashes.
Hahaha, Mark, I'm waiting 😎👍
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But, then there is a great chance for them to find out what I've been saying in the past! 🤔
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Bess seems to be quietly missing from the second test squad photo:
https://twitter.com/englandcricket/status/1402536971994644483?s=19
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Anyone else absolutely hate the New England test shirts? Sponsored by a company that flogs used cars. Pfft.
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Anyone else absolutely hate the New England test shirts? Sponsored by a company that flogs used cars. Pfft.
Oh man!
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Anyone else absolutely hate the New England test shirts? Sponsored by a company that flogs used cars. Pfft.
Other than the sponsor logo, which I agree is a bit garish, I quite like them. The new training kit is nice too.
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Bess seems to be quietly missing from the second test squad photo:
https://twitter.com/englandcricket/status/1402536971994644483?s=19
noticed that too, maybe hadnt had his negative pcr test yet so hadnt joined the bubble? would be very embarrassing for the ECB if they called him up and he was the one that Wisden had caught - not that i agree with what wisden are doing, trying to destroy people for a story
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Job of a journalist to report these things. Bigotry and bias is clearly an issue in cricket and it does no favours to anyone to pretend it isn't.
The ECB has failed to do it's due diligence and IMO they've handled these tweets coming out really poorly. Are they now going to suspend Anderson, Morgan, Buttler, etc pending investigation as they've done with Robinson? Because otherwise Robinson has been unfairly singled out and scapegoated.
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This whole Robinson suspension thing is a disaster in my opinion. How can you hold someone accountable for something they did years ago as a teenager. But I do understand it from the board's point of view too. In today's world of snowflakes, one is expected to respond strongly to anything that could be deemed offensive. Also, there should be distinction between poor humor and outright racist behavior. To me, Robinson's tweet felt more like the former.
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i havent seen much on the morgan & Buttler tweets but if the Anderson one was just a bad joke surely?
All of it benefits Robinson as they cant ban everyone for 'banter' no matter how bad or over the line it was.
Social media is a dangerous place for anyone in the public eye, dont they have separate accounts for personal and public?
I would hate to look back at the things i said and posted when i was younger, but there has to be a limit on how far back someone can be punished for doesnt there?
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Some would describe Robinson's comment about Muslims as a bad joke, where exactly do we draw the line?
If Anderson's bad joke is okay, are we saying Islamaphobia is bad (it is, of course) but homophobia is okay?
Think the ECB have dug themselves a hole with the Robinson suspension/investigation. Three options probably - suspend everyone who has sent dubious tweets pending investigation and seriously weaken their selection pool, only suspend Robinson which looks like scapegoating or rescind the suspension which makes them look soft on racism/sexism.
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Williamson ruled out with his elbow problem. Shame as he’s one of my favourites. Hopefully he’s fit for the WTC final.
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Think the ECB have dug themselves a hole with the Robinson suspension/investigation. Three options probably - suspend everyone who has sent dubious tweets pending investigation and seriously weaken their selection pool, only suspend Robinson which looks like scapegoating or rescind the suspension which makes them look soft on racism/sexism.
Exactly this, they can't have one rule for Robinson and one rule for the rest now. Haven't a clue how they're going to deal with this now.
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can see Robinson being made a scapegoat, and the other reminded of their 'responsibilities'
always seems the be the ECB way
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I blame Ed Smith.
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can see Robinson being made a scapegoat, and the other reminded of their 'responsibilities'
always seems the be the ECB way
I wouldn’t rule anything out the ECB in recent years has proved its own incompetence and further away from the public’s views than ever.
But that the one thing the will not be able to do I think, what goes for Robinson must go for the rest. The unnamed player in this mess I have heard was 15 years old at the time.
The important message of equality,tolerance and understand of different faiths,beliefs and cultures can only be made better by education and understanding.
The ECB have succeed in lashing up the message in grand style.
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Apparently Anderson’s tweet was in regard to Stuart Broad’s haircut from about 10 years ago. He said Broad looked like a 15 year old lesbian.
I find that funny. If people are genuinely outraged by such a comment then the world is doomed.
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Apparently Anderson’s tweet was in regard to Stuart Broad’s haircut from about 10 years ago. He said Broad looked like a 15 year old lesbian.
I find that funny. If people are genuinely outraged by such a comment then the world is doomed.
You find it funny but maybe consider how funny it would be if you had a child who was tormented everyday about their sexuality. Suddenly quite a bit less funny.
No, it's not the end of the world and I don't believe for a second that Anderson is a committed homophobe but if we agree it's unacceptable to make racial 'jokes' then we shouldn't condone 'jokes' rooted in other biases either.
In the same vein as Robinson, education and some time and work helping to raise awareness among young people about the impact that being careless with a 'joke' can have on other people would be appropriate.
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You find it funny but maybe consider how funny it would be if you had a child who was tormented everyday about their sexuality. Suddenly quite a bit less funny.
No, it's not the end of the world and I don't believe for a second that Anderson is a committed homophobe but if we agree it's unacceptable to make racial 'jokes' then we shouldn't condone 'jokes' rooted in other biases either.
In the same vein as Robinson, education and some time and work helping to raise awareness among young people about the impact that being careless with a 'joke' can have on other people would be appropriate.
I can honestly say that it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Jokes come in all shapes and sizes, and what might be funny to some, will be outrageous to some Twitter warrior snowflake somewhere. My mother died of cancer three years ago. Do I get offended by jokes about cancer? No I don’t. Sometimes you need to make light of some of the more terrible things this world throws at you. If you get rid of all jokes that might even slightly offend what will you be left with? Knock knock jokes?
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I'm glad it doesn't bother you but that doesn't mean we should crack jokes at people's expense or lean on lazy stereotypes and pass it off as humour.
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I can honestly say that it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Jokes come in all shapes and sizes, and what might be funny to some, will be outrageous to some Twitter warrior snowflake somewhere. My mother died of cancer three years ago. Do I get offended by jokes about cancer? No I don’t. Sometimes you need to make light of some of the more terrible things this world throws at you. If you get rid of all jokes that might even slightly offend what will you be left with? Knock knock jokes?
Just because it doesn’t bother you doesn’t make it ok. Irrespective of the subject. If there is the potential for someone to be offended then simply don’t say it .
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I can honestly say that it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Jokes come in all shapes and sizes, and what might be funny to some, will be outrageous to some Twitter warrior snowflake somewhere. My mother died of cancer three years ago. Do I get offended by jokes about cancer? No I don’t. Sometimes you need to make light of some of the more terrible things this world throws at you. If you get rid of all jokes that might even slightly offend what will you be left with? Knock knock jokes?
I think if you were the butt of a joke and discriminated against on a daily basis, simply being for who you are, it might get a little tiresome.
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Anyway, back to the cricket and enough of the undeducated cricketers and outraged 'wokeflakes'.
Leach to play?
Broad to be rested?
Stone or Wood?
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leach has to play, whats the point in him being there if you have no intention of using him. not sure why they called up bess, just in case Leach got injured carrying the drinks i suppose
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Leach and Stone in, Broad and Robinson out. Leave the rest as they are to get some more game time against a quality attack.
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leach has to play, whats the point in him being there if you have no intention of using him. not sure why they called up bess, just in case Leach got injured carrying the drinks i suppose
😃😃😃
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Missing a trick by not having Parky in the squad.
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Stone for Robinson.
Not sure I like this new selection process.
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its poor, theres no championship points on the game so why not give people a chance.
would love to know how they justify no spinner again, especially after calling up bess
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The reluctance to play a spinner is beyond me
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I'm glad we had extended the tail of the batting line up (Wood at 8).
We looked so assured with the bat in the first test match :o
Let's hope we don't lose early wickets or it will be all over by Saturday.
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So basically if Stokes/Woakes/Curran don’t play England won’t play a spinner? 🙄
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Jeez Sibley and Burns are a tough watch. 18000 in to watch and they get these two!
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So basically if Stokes/Woakes/Curran don’t play England won’t play a spinner? 🙄
Yes pretty much I think. And probably...an all rounder needs to play for Foakes to come back as well. For whatever reason I don’t know there must be doubts about Foakes ability to contribute with the bat.
Unless England do away with the no 6 spot when Stokes/Butler return. I suppose that is possible.
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Seeing Sibley score two boundaries on the off-side in one over?! Pinch me!
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Bizarre that Foakes (FC average 38) isn't trusted with the bat at 7 but Buttler (FC average 33.5) is...
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Totally agree Jimbo. A guess would be Butler to return thou for the India series.
Huge fan of Pope’s potential but I’d like to see a score from him today. Stokes can bat in his position and is a shoe in to return.
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Ed Smith had been something of a convenient target for disagreements of selection decisions, particularly the role of front-line keepers and spinner, but it doesn't seem that his departure has changed the thinking to any great degree.
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i dont mind this, you cant win a test in the first session or 2 but you can definitely lose it. nobody moaned when cook and trott ground out run after run only scoring when it was in their area.
I agree sibley could be more productive on the offiside, but with the alternatives at hand i think hes doing well. also outscoring Burns in this one, if we finish the day 300-325 for 4 id call that a solid day
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Ed Smith had been something of a convenient target for disagreements of selection decisions, particularly the role of front-line keepers and spinner, but it doesn't seem that his departure has changed the thinking to any great degree.
Keeping wise, I imagine Foakes would have played if he hadn't got a freak injury.
Spinner wise, it is a bit bizarre not to be fielding one. Recalling Bess is a confusing one as well.
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I presume we’d have picked Leach if Stokes was available tbh. Or maybe even Curran or Woakes.
No way they could add a 5th bowler to this tail.
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Sibley gone straight after lunch. Not good enough for test cricket.
Now, Mr Crawley, get you head down and stop living off one innings from last summer.
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What the eff is Crawley doing?!
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Crawley's head just doesn't seem to be in it at the moment.
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Crumbs. Crawley gone for a duck, fishing outside off AGAIN.
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Think that’s the end of Crawley for a while, never looked comfortable time for a change I think
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Bizarre that Foakes (FC average 38) isn't trusted with the bat at 7 but Buttler (FC average 33.5) is...
Ben Brown averages 39. Never gets a mention. Just saying.
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What the eff is Crawley doing?!
That's what good bowling and being outbid form does. Wagner needs credit in that giving him the inswinger 3rd ball that he didnt pick then scrambled him for the next and he did neither try and crash it through cover, leave it or defend it.
Great talent just out of form at the moment.
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Think that’s the end of Crawley for a while, never looked comfortable time for a change I think
Going to be tough to manage him if they do drop him. No 4 day cricket for ages now, and i would imagine that at the start of this season he would have been pencilled in on the list of potential ashes participants. In this form you cannot continue to pick him though, but he only has himself to blame - It’s just really poor cricket.
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Eurghhhh
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Ben Brown averages 39. Never gets a mention. Just saying.
Possibly thinking is that he's a bit old for a debut? Isn't he a fair bit older than Foakes?
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What has happened to Zak Crawley? He also seems to be struggling off late. I saw him as the next big thing in Tests for England. :(
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One of my colleagues messaged me earlier to say he had been offered day 5 tickets. After the first session I thought it might be a good day to attend. However, now I think I’d turn down tickets for day 4.
England are turning in to England from the mid-90s. One wicket goes and panic sets in.
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Not good, man.
Selection and confidence issues?
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What has happened to Zak Crawley? He also seems to be struggling off late. I saw him as the next big thing in Tests for England. :(
Maybe a mix of this bubble life and the step up to test cricket from the county championship. Basically the last like so many currently are out of nick. Struggled in India like nearly everyone, had an ok start to CC with some scores and then struggled again in the first test series of the summer.
The question as always is who replaces that's any better and also with so many ipl players to come back in do you even need a other debut player this summer
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Nasser just did a good 3rd man on Crawley. He highlighted that his trigger movement from last summer (the movement of the front foot) has totally disappeared, and he’s static at delivery.
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Maybe a mix of this bubble life and the step up to test cricket from the county championship. Basically the last like so many currently are out of nick. Struggled in India like nearly everyone, had an ok start to CC with some scores and then struggled again in the first test series of the summer.
The question as always is who replaces that's any better and also with so many ipl players to come back in do you even need a other debut player this summer
Imagine Bracey could play at 3 if Foakes/Buttler comes back to keep.
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Crawley has been out virtually the same way last 3 times. I dunno if anyone else thinks the same but today he looked like he tried to pull out of the drive-caught in two minds.
Burns seems the only one really to have some county form behind him and is consistent.
It might be right for Crawley to get some work done away from the test scene-generally think you should give players more time but it might be beneficial to him to do some technical work.
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Oh Ollie, what on Earth...
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lawrence looks all over the place against pace, might play spin well but the sooner stokes is back the better
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Is Pope the new Ramprekash
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Is Pope the new Ramprekash
oddly I had exactly the same thought - he scores hundreds for fun in the Championship, and not just on Oval featherbeds, but his Test form is becoming...no, has gone past the stage of giving concern.
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Pope’s biggest problem is that he seems to think he needs to (and can) score off every ball once he’s been in for more than 10 minutes. It’s very rare that he gets out to a stonkingly good ball.
I don’t see the similarities with Ramps. Ramps, particularly in the early years, put way too much pressure on himself, and quite often froze on the biggest stage.
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Similarities are scorers ramps had 2 tons in 90 odd innings
Pope has 1 in 30 and is going backwards average wise....
Both elegant stroke players
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Not good enough from Pope, still convinced he has all the talent needed to do well.
I dunno just how good Bracey is but there’s opportunities ahead of him if he can take his chance. I don’t think we can have Pope and Crawley against India in this form.
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Time for Pope to get dropped. 19 Tests average 31. Clearly been exposed especially as he averages 62 in fc.
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Burns gone. NZ will be batting before the end of day one.
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Here comes 200ao
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I need a stiff drink
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Well this is a horror show !!
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Be very interested to see the squad picked to face India, I wonder how many changes there will be
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Yep, Bracey should definitely be batting at 3.
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Be very interested to see the squad picked to face India, I wonder how many changes there will be
Other than Burns and Root I don’t think anyone is safe. Worrying times.
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Other than Burns and Root I don’t think anyone is safe. Worrying times.
Only right looking at the performances so far !
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At least Lawrence has the brains to counter attack given the game situation.
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Yep, Bracey should definitely be batting at 3.
The best players are always the ones that haven't played yet.
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The best players are always the ones that haven't played yet.
Good to see we're settled on our opinion of Bracey after two test innings 😂
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Could be worse..... see the West Indies score!
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Some real grit from Lawrence and Wood and Stone have done well supporting him, if we can get to 300 then it's not too bad
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Stone has got a few handy runs before in a match, Wood also.
It’s looking like an important knock from Lawrence.
I don’t think all our youngsters will survive the cut when the big guns are back.
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Good to see we're settled on our opinion of Bracey after two test innings 😂
I haven't.
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Maybe a mix of this bubble life and the step up to test cricket from the county championship. Basically the last like so many currently are out of nick. Struggled in India like nearly everyone, had an ok start to CC with some scores and then struggled again in the first test series of the summer.
The question as always is who replaces that's any better and also with so many ipl players to come back in do you even need a other debut player this summer
Umm, what IPL player can bat top 3 ?!?!?
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I think Chris got it right, how many debutants do we need every summer?
Many of Indian ipl players are successful test cricketers and I think these days doesn't really matter what number you're batting as long you're technically and mentally sound.
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I went to Edgbaston yesterday. Took a lateral flow test on Wednesday and had to show proof of negative at the first line of stewards, then queued up to get in with the usual bag check. Fairly smooth running of this. The queue to get in was 5-10 minutes where I entered. Before the match I'd say that 95% were wearing masks. We were told we were only allowed to take them off when at our seats. As the day drew on I'd say that the mask wearing slipped to about 70% at best. The effects of the alcohol and forgetfulness probably.
My seat was in row J but there was nobody sitting in the 9 rows in front. After lunch people started moving towards the empty seats and none of the stewards seemed that bothered. There was to be no social distancing anywhere in the stadium which was a bit of a culture shock to me after the last year but you could tell some people wanted to keep their distance.
The atmosphere was more positive than I've experienced at other tests. There was far fewer things laid on to entertain spectators during the intervals. No under-16s were allowed in which might have lead to a slightly more raucous atmosphere. There was no "pay a deposit for the plastic pint glass" system which meant we saw the return of the beer snake.
All in all I think Edgbaston did a good job.
I have to take a PCR test in 5 days time as part of the pilot scheme but that's it.
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I think Chris got it right, how many debutants do we need every summer?
Many of Indian ipl players are successful test cricketers and I think these days doesn't really matter what number you're batting as long you're technically and mentally sound.
Are we talking about Jonny Bairstow here?
England actually give debuts quite sparingly these days. But it's no secret that we've had problems at the top of batting order. You can't really say that any of those who 'failed' weren't given a decent go at it.
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England seem to be loathed to drop batters, regardless of how poor their returns are. It seems no-one gets dropped until they’ve had their technique ripped to shreds in the media. Back in the 90s/early 2000s England’s batting order got chopped and changed relentlessly, but I fear we have gone too far the other way now, with hopelessly out of form batters continuing to be picked.
Same can’t be said for bowlers, especially spinners. One or two bad games and you’re out.
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I love Mark Wood. Who doesn't.
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I would love him more if his body wasn’t made of glass, and was capable of playing more than two matches in a row. Can’t fault his effort though.
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Fun over 😭 what a cameo from Wood.
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now for the fun of watching Broad try to convince everyone hes not scared of the ball
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that post aged well!
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😂
Thrilled for Lawrence, showing a bit more of what he's capable of.
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Wood has actually had less injuries as he has got a bit older which is unusual.
Seemed to combine with lengthening his run up a couple of years back.
Lawrence doing a great job here, I’d never have thought myself he would be standing out from Pope and Crawley but it’s runs that count and neither of the other two look confident enough to play their shots
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😂
Thrilled for Lawrence, showing a bit more of what he's capable of.
Yes really good intelligent innings. Maybe Silverwood was right he seems unafraid to play his shots.
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I can't remember who it was that said it, but I remember reading an opinion that anyone with Lawrence's technique would need to have plenty self belief to have stuck with something so unconventional. Got a lot of time for him.
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Player has success: "I always thought that... / technique doesn't matter if..."
Player has failure: "I was never really sure about.../ needs to sort out that technique..."
Etc.
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Tom Latham has made a great career minnow bashing against Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe. Gets exposed against literally everyone else.
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Tom Latham has made a great career minnow bashing against Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe. Gets exposed against literally everyone else.
Average against England is only a few less than his career average. Averages better than his career average against the Windies. Stats against the minnows do pad the average tbf.
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Player has success: "I always thought that... / technique doesn't matter if..."
Player has failure: "I was never really sure about.../ needs to sort out that technique..."
Etc.
Same as the likes of Cook, Bell and co?
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Average against England is only a few less than his career average. Averages better than his career average against the Windies. Stats against the minnows do pad the average tbf.
8 centuries in 23 innings against those minnows
3 centuries in 77 innings against proper teams
Needs to pull his finger out tbh
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That looked out to me? Fingers under the ball?
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Broad robbed of a wicket. The frame before you could see the fingers under the ball. Does the 3rd umpire think they suddenly disappeared? Rubbish decision.
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never see those given, as soon as the 3rd ump gets involved its always not out. looked a great catch to me
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Not a huge fan of Doull when he’s in T20 mode but he’s bang on there, straight to the point !
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Broad robbed of a wicket. The frame before you could see the fingers under the ball. Does the 3rd umpire think they suddenly disappeared? Rubbish decision.
3rd umpires don't have any clues when the ball is in their court!
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This has been a dire session
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England are absolutely clueless. The rain won’t save them in this match.
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Taylor looks even more out of nick than Crawley, and that’s saying something.
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That spell from Broad was magnificent
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Seems absolutely ridiculous that Leach isn’t in the team. Wood is such a mediocre bowler
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Seems absolutely ridiculous that Leach isn’t in the team. Wood is such a mediocre bowler
Wood’s in for his batting!
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I just don't understand the logic in picking a bowling line up of 4 right armers. Way too similar, with only variation a bit more speed or swing. Just have to have a spinner no matter what. In the reverse situation, like in India, you'd never see a team pick 4 spinners and no seamer/quick. So much easier for the opposition batsman with such limited variety.
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Seems absolutely ridiculous that Leach isn’t in the team. Wood is such a mediocre bowler
The number 6 position will go to stokes so that's a batter and bowler in one.Much as we need to give time to Crawley and Pope I don't think they will make the India series.
I don't know realistically we would expect all the young batters to all do well early in their careers. Stokes coming back means more chance Leach playing.i don't like going in without a spinner either, their guy turned it on day two.
I would of said Crawley and Pope look the best options a year ago, in fact they look out of their depth.
Lawrence at least when I have seen him score runs, looks to dominate and doesn't look afraid to get out.
Seems a bit back to front we can't get Leach in because our batters dont t score enough runs, but it's been like that for ages.
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Dan Lawrence getting a maiden test wicket, wonderful
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As much as pope seems to keep getting in then getting himself out, I'd keep him in when stokes is back, pope at short leg is excellent.
Crawley im not a fan of.
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I'm not sure a batsman can stay in the side just because he is a crack short leg, otherwise Keaton Jennings would never of been dropped.
Tough call on Pope, he's massively talented for his age, great FC record, does the fact he gets in but then gets out mean any more than getting ducks then a big score spread out?.
Stokes will be back, Bracey will be out and Butler or Foakes back.
England might have to choose between Crawley and Pope, leaving Sibley where he is at the moment.
Lawrence may get a few low scores but when he is in at least he's shown the ability to take the attack to the bowlers.
He doesn't look overawed by the situation.
Maybe he has more self confidence and belief than the other two.
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No at That level obviously he's not keeping his place on fielding alone, I've always thought he was brought in to the side far too early and batted too high.
I'm just not a fan of bringing a player in and expecting instant success.
Pope is still young if he's cast aside now when will he get back in?
The difference with jennings was he obviously had a huge flaw when opening the batting. I don't see a huge flaw in pope other than him applying himself which will come in time.
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Totally agree, he's the most talented player I've seen at his age after Root.
England selection nowadays is a few more games to prove they can cut it, rather than the old days of players getting chopped and changed all the time.
It's always a punt with selection of young players and the step up is difficult, no doubt about that.
England have invested a lot into Pope but there does come a time you need to contribute a bit more.
I wonder if when Stokes is back England might try Pope (presuming he's not dropped) up the order a bit. He doesn't bat that high for Surrey but it may be worth the risk.
I think Burns and Sibley will stay as openers , if Crawley is out, Lawrence looks more of a shot player at 5 or 6.
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With Pope I wonder if dropping him now is the same as Bell in the Windies. It's more about reminding him of the need to apply himself than saying he is not of the required standard.
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Both very good points.
England are definitely much better in their policy of giving players more games.
I think Burns has done enough to answer his critics and I certainly wouldn't like to see Crawley and sibley opening.
Sibley is doing a job he's been asked yes he's boring but he wears down the attack. I'd possibly be looking at Malan at 3 looking ahead to the ashes.
As always England have a wealth of middle order bats and we can't fit them all in! Tough calls.
I think the squad for the India series will look very different though.
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If Crawley gets dropped you assume a top order player would replace him such as Hameed. There’s no way Pope could move up to 3 when he’s struggling at 5.
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And to think I actually apologised for getting it wrong after strongly asserting that Zak Crawley was unlikely to be the answer!
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No at That level obviously he's not keeping his place on fielding alone, I've always thought he was brought in to the side far too early and batted too high.
I'm just not a fan of bringing a player in and expecting instant success.
Pope is still young if he's cast aside now when will he get back in?
The difference with jennings was he obviously had a huge flaw when opening the batting. I don't see a huge flaw in pope other than him applying himself which will come in time.
He’s mostly batted at 6 hasn’t he. You can’t really have him much lower!
I guess it’s Pope or Lawrence at 6 and 3, as always, the problem spot. Malan is probably he solution if they have an eye on Australian, but if he they give him 5 games agains india and he fails then that’s a hard call to stick with. Glad I’m not a selector right now tbh.
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He’s mostly batted at 6 hasn’t he. You can’t really have him much lower!
I guess it’s Pope or Lawrence at 6 and 3, as always, the problem spot. Malan is probably he solution if they have an eye on Australian, but if he they give him 5 games agains india and he fails then that’s a hard call to stick with. Glad I’m not a selector right now tbh.
Me too, I think this is a really hard time to be a selector. The entire team is in transition really, with the exception of only a couple of players. Just think how different it will look when Broad and Anderson retire! But hey, we'll get to fall in love with a whole new group of players.
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He’s mostly batted at 6 hasn’t he. You can’t really have him much lower!
I guess it’s Pope or Lawrence at 6 and 3, as always, the problem spot. Malan is probably he solution if they have an eye on Australian, but if he they give him 5 games agains india and he fails then that’s a hard call to stick with. Glad I’m not a selector right now tbh.
This time around he has batted 6 which I think is about right 5/6. When he was brought in to the england first time around he batted well out of position up the order.
I'm not sure either pope or Lawrence have the game to bat 3.
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This time around he has batted 6 which I think is about right 5/6. When he was brought in to the england first time around he batted well out of position up the order.
I'm not sure either pope or Lawrence have the game to bat 3.
He batted 4 twice (no idea when)
5 - 7 tests
6 - 10
7- 4
I’d love him to do well but batting too high hasn’t been the issue. I’d rather they dropped him
Completely than pushed him up to 3 to be honest, same with Lawrence.
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Lawrence looks a middle order bat 5 or 6, he seems more keen to take it on a bit. I don't think all the younger players are going to make it thru the summer, I'd like as much time as possible but there's a balance of contributing to the team.
Stokes, Buttler/Foakes coming back means we don't need a specialist batter at 6. Not to mention Curran and Chris Woakes(player of the year for us but not bowled a ball for nearly a year for England).
Recent years we have had lots of middle order players,not many top order ones, hence why we probably will give Sibley an extended run, he's done ok so far.
I think Pope is a huge talent, at the moment none of Crawley,Pope or Lawrence really stand out from each other. At the moment Lawrence looks to have more of a temperament for batting, which you only know once they play test matches.
England have to take a punt on potential, as others have said with a developing side (batting) it's no easy task.
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Bracey isn't very good
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If NZ lead is restricted to 100 odd runs, Eng will win this match.
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If NZ lead is restricted to 100 odd runs, Eng will win this match.
Your optimism is impressive
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Bracey isn't very good
Eight days in to his test match career, and he hasn’t stopped looking nervous yet.
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The batting is just so pathetic. Both openers gone early. Still trail by 60 odd
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Starc, Cummins etc will be licking their lips at the prospect of bowling at Sibley and Burns this winter. Bring back Cook & Strauss!
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Starc, Cummins etc will be licking their lips at the prospect of bowling at Sibley and Burns this winter. Bring back Cook & Strauss!
They will, but maybe Australia aren't actually the best team in the world?
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They will, but maybe Australia aren't actually the best team in the world?
Doesn’t matter if they are the best team in the world. They have the best fast bowling line-up in the world, and will exploit the ineptitude of the English batters better than any other nations fast bowling attack.
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Crawley flops again 31-3. No chance he plays against India.
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Pope fails again as well 58-4. Really pathetic batting effort
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This team is wank. (No Swearing Please) clueless
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Lawrence blob 58-5. No fight at all in this team.
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This team is wank. (No Swearing Please) clueless
Funny that CBF doesn't consider wank a swear word!
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If NZ lead is restricted to 100 odd runs, Eng will win this match.
Now they're 5 down and still 25 behind I'll just be happy if they make New Zealand bat again...
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What on effing earth was that
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Nz have to bat last, so with a decent partnership here and a 150 runs target, game is on.
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Brainless from Bracey bowled by Patel. 71-6
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Nz have to bat last, so with a decent partnership here and a 150 runs target, game is on.
I'll have what your smoking
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This is absolutely pathetic. Bracey has had a total nightmare.
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England has proved me wrong!
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It's a disgrace that Buttler, Bairstow and Woakes are playing in the T20.
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I'll have what your smoking
lol, being optimistic with that one last stand (and a chance for Bracey to use the situation to make his case), but after 6 down, I give up :)
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English red ball cricket is rotten to the core. Poor standard county championship, jobs for the boys throughout the ECB, and a ridiculous selection policy. Don’t even get me started on rotation.
Silverwood is out of his depth. Said it from day one, and I don’t think my opinion is likely to change anytime soon.
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English red ball cricket is rotten to the core. Poor standard county championship, jobs for the boys throughout the ECB, and a ridiculous selection policy...
... people calling cricket 'red-ball cricket'....
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This is a (No Swearing Please) way to treat the paying punters
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Given the performance England have subjected us to, I think CBF should temporarily remove the swear filter, so we can allow our true feelings be known.
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I blame the selectors. Bring back Ed Smith.
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You suspect there will be some changes now but as ever...the quality waiting to play may not be good enough.
The younger batters will be a difficult call.
I know Foakes is injured but I forever wonder why the batting of him gets questioned at test level
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When you see what’s going on in the football right now, it kind of puts a crap batting performance in to perspective.
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It does of course that footballer is up and awake thankfully just reported on BBC.
It doesn't excuse England thou, the question is where from here? Stick or twist with new players....batsmen anyway, do we have anyone better.
Before the series started the management spoke about gearing for the ashes, preparation for the ashes...
We must must must somehow STOP this inane rubbish, New Zealand and India await, if we don't get good results at home is unrealistic to expect we turn up and turn over Aussies our in their own backyard-it won't happen.
Off the top of my head this is what I think
Bracey. Looks frightened. Not the first he won't be the last but he can't be in the team or near it.
Burns. Stick. He gets runs.
Sibley. Stick. More time needed and no obvious replacement. Hameed needs a good season behind him.
Crawley...reluctantly twist, time out away and back to County.
Pope...hmmmm. Tricky. Massive potential, not enough runs. Stick for a bit longer.
Lawrence. Stick. When he's in looks to play his shots, unorthodox he appears confident enough.
Root. A shoe in our best by miles.
Stokes. Back in ASAP.
Foakes. Back in asap.
Buttler back in id rather Foakes kept but you could make an argument he might play as a batsman.
Leach. Hot dry conditions should of played.
We can't blame the bowlers again they did alright, if catches were held it would of been even on first innings.
Silverwood needs to get a grip, and quick.
Malan is an option, may just get an Ashes trip in the winter, but let's forget about he Ashes :)
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It does of course that footballer is up and awake thankfully just reported on BBC.
It doesn't excuse England thou, the question is where from here? Stick or twist with new players....batsmen anyway, do we have anyone better.
Before the series started the management spoke about gearing for the ashes, preparation for the ashes...
We must must must somehow STOP this inane rubbish, New Zealand and India await, if we don't get good results at home is unrealistic to expect we turn up and turn over Aussies our in their own backyard-it won't happen.
Off the top of my head this is what I think
Bracey. Looks frightened. Not the first he won't be the last but he can't be in the team or near it.
Burns. Stick. He gets runs.
Sibley. Stick. More time needed and no obvious replacement. Hameed needs a good season behind him.
Crawley...reluctantly twist, time out away and back to County.
Pope...hmmmm. Tricky. Massive potential, not enough runs. Stick for a bit longer.
Lawrence. Stick. When he's in looks to play his shots, unorthodox he appears confident enough.
Root. A shoe in our best by miles.
Stokes. Back in ASAP.
Foakes. Back in asap.
Buttler back in id rather Foakes kept but you could make an argument he might play as a batsman.
Leach. Hot dry conditions should of played.
We can't blame the bowlers again they did alright, if catches were held it would of been even on first innings.
Silverwood needs to get a grip, and quick.
Malan is an option, may just get an Ashes trip in the winter, but let's forget about he Ashes :)
Absolutely agree with this. We under performed first innings we should have had 450+ on the board. With key players from the last few yewrs missing we are heavily relying on the same 1 or 2 players.
I know it's strange times with bubbles etc but it feels this 2 match series has been taken far too lightly. Momentum is key going into the winter down under.
I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of YJB etc on playing t20 blast instead of getting back in the test side.
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Bairstow’s played 60/70 Tests and he’s been found out along time ago. No need to go back to him.
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It does of course that footballer is up and awake thankfully just reported on BBC.
It doesn't excuse England thou, the question is where from here? Stick or twist with new players....batsmen anyway, do we have anyone better.
Before the series started the management spoke about gearing for the ashes, preparation for the ashes...
We must must must somehow STOP this inane rubbish, New Zealand and India await, if we don't get good results at home is unrealistic to expect we turn up and turn over Aussies our in their own backyard-it won't happen.
Off the top of my head this is what I think
Bracey. Looks frightened. Not the first he won't be the last but he can't be in the team or near it.
Burns. Stick. He gets runs.
Sibley. Stick. More time needed and no obvious replacement. Hameed needs a good season behind him.
Crawley...reluctantly twist, time out away and back to County.
Pope...hmmmm. Tricky. Massive potential, not enough runs. Stick for a bit longer.
Lawrence. Stick. When he's in looks to play his shots, unorthodox he appears confident enough.
Root. A shoe in our best by miles.
Stokes. Back in ASAP.
Foakes. Back in asap.
Buttler back in id rather Foakes kept but you could make an argument he might play as a batsman.
Leach. Hot dry conditions should of played.
We can't blame the bowlers again they did alright, if catches were held it would of been even on first innings.
Silverwood needs to get a grip, and quick.
Malan is an option, may just get an Ashes trip in the winter, but let's forget about he Ashes :)
Don’t disagree hugely, but if the players you’re keeping. What’s the batting order. Or rather, who’s at 3?
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I don't get all the doom and gloom, were weak at the moment but missing loads of players
My full strength side:
Burns
Sibley
Any form 3
Root
Stokes
Pope/Lawrence
Buttler
Foakes
Wood/stone
Leach
Broad
Anderson
4 seamers 1.5 spinners
And batting
Yes this is self inflicted this summer and the (No Swearing Please) about prepping for ashes is just that but we all knew we would be weak this summer
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That’s 12 players, maybe the only way to get some half decent scores?
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Don’t disagree hugely, but if the players you’re keeping. What’s the batting order. Or rather, who’s at 3?
The problem is no 3 and it’s been that way for a while. I think Crawley-who I thought would make decent runs-should be left out, Pope is borderline because he hasn’t done enough-but might do if he’s kept in.
I’ve thought for ages Root should be 3 because we have so many middle order players, Lawrence the latest of them, but that exposes our best batsman in a position he doesn’t want, so it won’t be him.
There’s no easy answer to the number 3 spot. Malan possibly but that would drop Pope I think.
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The problem is no 3 and it’s been that way for a while. I think Crawley-who I thought would make decent runs-should be left out, Pope is borderline because he hasn’t done enough-but might do if he’s kept in.
I’ve thought for ages Root should be 3 because we have so many middle order players, Lawrence the latest of them, but that exposes our best batsman in a position he doesn’t want, so it won’t be him.
There’s no easy answer to the number 3 spot. Malan possibly but that would drop Pope I think.
I’d like Malan at 3 for Oz, less sure for the india series. If they give him that and he doesn’t go well, then we have big problems.
I’m not a fan but it does almost convince we that we could almost stick a Woakes or a No at 3 just to fill the spot. He’s not have to average many for it to be a success, but it would be an odd move.
On a realistic note I’m not sure who else is on the list of realistic options, Haneed (hope they leave him at Notts for a full season), Libby, Bracey was clearly lined up for it but it’s hard to pick him there after the two tests he’s had now.
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Thanks for the high praise for NZ :D
Burns looks ok, at least he tries to score. Crawley gone, Sibley (Terrible technique and no intent to score) gone, Pope Id persevere with he looks good but gets out, Lawrence gone (Looks very average).
Surely in the whole of England there must be some better batsman. I'm not saying you should pick T20 players but everytime I watch that I see some amazing players. With the talent in T20's there must be some talent in Red ball cricket? Are there any older journeyman that are still carving up First class level? Get Darren Stevens in I say.
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That’s 12 players, maybe the only way to get some half decent scores?
Yeah just can't count 🤣🤣
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Thanks for the high praise for NZ :D
Burns looks ok, at least he tries to score. Crawley gone, Sibley (Terrible technique and no intent to score) gone, Pope Id persevere with he looks good but gets out, Lawrence gone (Looks very average).
Surely in the whole of England there must be some better batsman. I'm not saying you should pick T20 players but everytime I watch that I see some amazing players. With the talent in T20's there must be some talent in Red ball cricket? Are there any older journeyman that are still carving up First class level? Get Darren Stevens in I say.
New Zealand have absolutely out played us in all areas and I'm sure everyone will agree.
The batting by England in the 2nd innings was for the most just brainless.
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A top 7 as below doesn't look too bad, but still issues with the opening spot and Pope not convincing at 6. Had issues with openers for what seems like forever, but still no answers!
Burns
?
Malan
Root
Stokes
Pope
Butler/Foakes/Bairstow
No idea who comes in to open tbh, but think Malan was cast aside too early and deserves a go at 3.
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Sibley will be opening long term, there's no one else
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Jake Libby to open or bat at 3 for me..
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Sibley will be opening long term, there's no one else
Agree, but think we have to try someone different as just don't think Sibley will be a long term answer
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Definitely think changes need to be made for the first test against India, I’d like to see Jake Libby or Alex lees given a chance as they are the inform batsmen on the county circuit atm (although lees currently has a broken hand) I’d have malan in at number 3 and then a middle order of root, stokes, butler and foakes(wk). I don’t think we can continue to carry Pope after his recent run of form.
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Here we go ...
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Definitely think changes need to be made for the first test against India, I’d like to see Jake Libby or Alex lees given a chance as they are the inform batsmen on the county circuit atm (although lees currently has a broken hand) I’d have malan in at number 3 and then a middle order of root, stokes, butler and foakes(wk). I don’t think we can continue to carry Pope after his recent run of form.
Agree Pope and Crawley could benefit from some time out of the spotlight.
Libby is an interesting one, seen a lot of commentators are impressed by him this year.
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If Buttler isn’t keeping is he really worth a place in the side?
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If Buttler isn’t keeping is he really worth a place in the side?
His record at 6 is pretty decent IIRC.
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Chances are Butler will be back with the gloves as they will want to pack the side as much as possible.
If you look at the last 2 years Butler has been consistent with the bat and played some good test match innings.
He surprised me will changing between the formats so well.
Vaughan just said on BBC Malan is a possible for the number 3 slot, against him he not a great team man…
Hmmm. I hope there is no issue other than ability when it comes to selection
We went thru this with KP.. yes fault of both sides with him admittedly
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Vaughan is a moron of the highest order. How can he possibly say Malan is not a team man. Just click bait bs.
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Vaughan is a moron of the highest order. How can he possibly say Malan is not a team man. Just click bait bs.
Based on him forgetting there was one ball to come and not two, and not running a bye? Agree, typical Vaughan (No Swearing Please).
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You would like to think if it’s a number 3 we desperately need(it is) one incident in a game would not count against him.
I thought Denly should of toured India, he was dumped maybe at 3 we do need a more experienced player to go in there.
Then the middle order is easier to work at. Root won’t move from 4, Lawrence or Pope maybe 5, Stokes 6. At least that looks in the right order.
Players are no different to us, they may have character traits which mean they are not so popular. I do think we should of learned from KP.
We all work and maybe play with people we would not have a drink with down the pub…should pro sports not be more tolerant?
It’s not a village match the aim is to win, there’s not loads of quality waiting to come into the side I don’t think.
Maybe England have been ‘too matey’ in the past, perhaps that does need changing
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Surely Sliverwood and co have to look at Joe Clarke soon? He made some mistakes off the field. But surely he deserves an opportunity if they ever let him off the naughty step. He’s got 17 red ball hundreds.
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I think we're now suffering the fallout from the ECB focus on winning the World Cup. Bloody Bobby Moore and Nobby Stiles.
As for Malan, team player etc etc, someone posted earlier, the idea of Professional Sport is that you don't have huge selection issues and result fallouts from players sticking their tongues out at each other behind the Captain's back, or players telling their mates to gang up on another because they smell. England haven't managed that in a couple of decades. Australia did.
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I'm going to say it.................
I don't think Anderson and Broad are an attacking enough opening bowling partnership and I don't think they get enough early wickets. I think it's time we rotate them or put Broad down to first change.
I also think that people think Pope is mustard, but I think he lacks the mental ability to bat properly at test level.
I also think some of these youngsters will never make a proper top 3 whilst County Cricket is so marginalised
I also think, even though he is one, Root has no confidence in captaining a spinner
...........there you go - you can all shout me down now!
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Fed up already of seeing Bairstow being touted again as a test match batsmen.. I mean.. how many times does a guy have to fail before being told to sling his hook....
Ali - I mean, lovely guy but really not good enough
Curran - Again... I know people love a trier but Jesus... if he's some form of Test match player then please please admit that stocks are very very limited and stop beating the 'world class' 'on the up' drum
Buttler - I really do admire his determination in red ball to try and bat like a test match batter tbf. Can't fault him for that.. Effort A+.. He's just not that good. Foakes is the keeper and Buttler doesn't avg 40 so again... please move on from England being any good whilst he is in the side
Stokes - Fair enough. Nailed on number 5 but lets not get too carried away again.. he STILL doesn't avg 40+.. How many of the NZ batters for example DON'T average 40+... not many
Seeing too many people blaming rotation.. blaming the loss of the IPL players... seriously !!! Only stokes is missing from this team.. Woakes you can make a case for but for Woakes to play, you're dropping wood/Anderson or Broad. Apart from that.. literally no one else would make it any better unless you're a ECB PR monkey who believes the hype on the likes of Bairstow/Curran/Ali et all.
This isn't an un-expected result of years of producing white ball players who dabble at county level in red ball... It's not a shock.. it's predictable and again, you'll all say I'm being negative but if you only produce hitters.. you can't expect to produce test match batters or even bowlers (as they also learn white ball bowling instead of red ball bowling).
sigh.
Luckily for England, the other nations aren't actually that much better so it's not as obvious.
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four conventional right arm over bowlers for me is the problem, the oppo batsmen are never unsettled as it's all so predictable.
You look at the NZ attack and they all have that little variation whether it's just Left hand, speed, control etc... giving the England batsmen something to think about, plus that and we batted like divs.
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Thanks for the high praise for NZ :D
Burns looks ok, at least he tries to score. Crawley gone, Sibley (Terrible technique and no intent to score) gone, Pope Id persevere with he looks good but gets out, Lawrence gone (Looks very average).
Surely in the whole of England there must be some better batsman. I'm not saying you should pick T20 players but everytime I watch that I see some amazing players. With the talent in T20's there must be some talent in Red ball cricket? Are there any older journeyman that are still carving up First class level? Get Darren Stevens in I say.
so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough
Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier
Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)
Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost
Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.
Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..
people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)
The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.
people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all... realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..
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I'm going to say it.................
I don't think Anderson and Broad are an attacking enough opening bowling partnership and I don't think they get enough early wickets. I think it's time we rotate them or put Broad down to first change.
I also think that people think Pope is mustard, but I think he lacks the mental ability to bat properly at test level.
I also think some of these youngsters will never make a proper top 3 whilst County Cricket is so marginalised
I also think, even though he is one, Root has no confidence in captaining a spinner
...........there you go - you can all shout me down now!
Sadly.. agree on Broad/Anderson
The top 3 - agree but at the same time... There isn't anyone better and Bairstow and co should be nowhere near 3.. well, he shouldn't be near a test side but hey ho.. calls for him are back I see..
Root as captain.. we know (or anyone sensible does) he isn't very good but he's a nice bloke and there isn't anyone better.. If anyone says Stokes then unless he's giving up bowling (which he should as his body is knackered) then it's waaaay too much. Plus tbf, England need him to give up white ball to preserve his body for tests.. or vice versa if he's only interested in cash.
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I don't think Anderson and Broad are an attacking enough opening bowling partnership and I don't think they get enough early wickets. I think it's time we rotate them or put Broad down to first change.
This has been an uncomfortable truth for years now, their opening spells are very defensive. Unless it's a real green seamer I'm not sure there's the same value in playing them together anymore.
Pope seems to me to bat like he finds domestic cricket too easy and struggles to adapt his natural rhythm to test level bowling when he can't dominate all the time. Not unusual, you would think he'd really benefit from playing in a more experienced side. Stokes and Buttler back in makes things look a lot better, then we're back to just the traditional top three problems!
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This has been an uncomfortable truth for years now, their opening spells are very defensive. Unless it's a real green seamer I'm not sure there's the same value in playing them together anymore.
Pope seems to me to bat like he finds domestic cricket too easy and struggles to adapt his natural rhythm to test level bowling when he can't dominate all the time. Not unusual, you would think he'd really benefit from playing in a more experienced side. Stokes and Buttler back in makes things look a lot better, then we're back to just the traditional top three problems!
Buttler???? Why Buttler and not Foakes (The better keeper and has a better FC avg and (I've not stat checked this).. but most likely similar or better test avg)
or are we going to go down the 'he's soo good at white ball so must be a good red ball cricketer'. -- FYI.. I actually love how Buttler tries to adapt his game btw. It's really really impressive
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Luckily for England, the other nations aren't actually that much better so it's not as obvious.
Yep ... shows in the number of test matches not going the distance anymore. Not saying good or bad, but indicative of traditional test match skills waning. Again, not saying good or bad, but comes back to the questions of 4 day tests ... would make a lot of these players look a lot better if it was NOT 5 days.
As an aside on the general direction .... after tests come down to 4 days, T20s become the hundred ... and the hundred become a super over, we are then only 3 balls away from baseball :-D
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I wouldn't totally object to Buttler batting 6 and not keeping. His record is decent and he's got plenty experience of pressure situations which might help the less experienced heads. Something like:
Sibley
Burns
Crawley/Bracey/3rd opener
Root
Stokes
Buttler/Lawrence/Pope
Foakes
Etc...
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Buttler???? Why Buttler and not Foakes (The better keeper and has a better FC avg and (I've not stat checked this).. but most likely similar or better test avg)
or are we going to go down the 'he's soo good at white ball so must be a good red ball cricketer'. -- FYI.. I actually love how Buttler tries to adapt his game btw. It's really really impressive
Seems little point in pretending they're going to pick Foakes over Buttler? I can see why too, no doubt Foakes is the better keeper but Buttler's red ball game has come a long way since he was recalled, think he's a stronger batting option than Foakes. He's got a decent defensive technique and a good cricket head on him so see no reason he can't be a good test player. Silverwood clearly isn't going to pick spinners much outside of Asia so Foakes' superior hands up to the stumps don't help him much!
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Pope is going to be another Vince.
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Yep ... shows in the number of test matches not going the distance anymore. Not saying good or bad, but indicative of traditional test match skills waning. Again, not saying good or bad, but comes back to the questions of 4 day tests ... would make a lot of these players look a lot better if it was NOT 5 days.
As an aside on the general direction .... after tests come down to 4 days, T20s become the hundred ... and the hundred become a super over, we are then only 3 balls away from baseball :-D
It's inevitable now
100
ODI (basically a longer version hitathon but great for beer sales!)
3-4 day tests
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Pope is going to be another Vince.
There must be a few of us who saw all of Ramps and Hick’s test careers hoping that is not the case.
The difference now is players get a longer run, not sure how long a run in the team is enough, but there are some who develop of bit later.
I agree with @ProCricketer1982 on this, Pope has the ability but is lacking a test match batting head-not unlike Vince you are right.
Thorpe, Collingwood and Trescothick are all around the team….they can’t bat for Pope but does he need their influence?
If I were Ollie Pope Collingwood is the one I would want to work with the most, regularly until he either can’t do it mentally or something clicks.
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Pope is going to be another Vince.
Why do so many people seem to think Vince has a great first class record?
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Losing test match at home ground, the way they did, doesn't it mean half the team isn't good enough!
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Why do so many people seem to think Vince has a great first class record?
I meant more in the style of play. They both make it look easy, then suffer a brain fart and get out. Neither of them get out to good balls particularly often - their wickets are quite often self-inflicted.
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There must be a few of us who saw all of Ramps and Hick’s test careers hoping that is not the case.
The difference now is players get a longer run, not sure how long a run in the team is enough, but there are some who develop of bit later.
I agree with @ProCricketer1982 on this, Pope has the ability but is lacking a test match batting head-not unlike Vince you are right.
Thorpe, Collingwood and Trescothick are all around the team….they can’t bat for Pope but does he need their influence?
If I were Ollie Pope Collingwood is the one I would want to work with the most, regularly until he either can’t do it mentally or something clicks.
Collingwood's mentality was phenomenal.. nowhere near the talent of some players but he knew his game, he knew his role and was able AND WILLING to adapt to the situation.. Brig Block or 'get on with it'.. That is a hallmark of a test match ..tbh, just a longer format player in general.. Doesn't have to be a pro cricketer really.. ANY batsmen should be a able and willing to adapt their game not just a one trick pony
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Losing test match at home ground, the way they did, doesn't it mean half the team isn't good enough!
Root/Anderson/Broad are all proven to be 'good enough'
The rest aren't either through not having played enough or just not performing at the required standard (so 40+ avg for a top 6 batter).. and please, none of this 'but the last x months he has crap'.. You want and need long term consistency for batting.. not purple patches and inconsistency
bowling isn't OVERLY a worry as we have some bowlers who might not be as good but are at least ok (Robinson, wood, archer, stone, Woakes). Batting though... literally only root avg's over 40.... that's horrendous
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Cook, Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen. It was only a few years ago that we had a top 5 that was the envy of the rest of the world, and we had a good number of high quality replacements too.
Something has obviously gone very wrong in county cricket in recent years, as the players coming through now are nowhere near the quality of the aforementioned. None of them seem to be able to graft anymore, and those that can, such as Sibley and Burns, have questionable techniques that have let them down time and again.
Anyone who thinks the return of Stokes and Buttler will sort things out are in for disappointment. Neither average about 40, and they’re not going to sort out the shocking state of England’s top three.
After the 2015 World Cup, the ECB decided to model their white ball stuff on what McCullum’s NZ we’re doing. It would be a good idea for them to model the test team on Williamson’s test match NZ team. Time to press the reset button, as the current set up is fundamentally flawed.
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Cook, Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen. It was only a few years ago that we had a top 5 that was the envy of the rest of the world, and we had a good number of high quality replacements too.
Something has obviously gone very wrong in county cricket in recent years, as the players coming through now are nowhere near the quality of the aforementioned. None of them seem to be able to graft anymore, and those that can, such as Sibley and Burns, have questionable techniques that have let them down time and again.
Anyone who thinks the return of Stokes and Buttler will sort things out are in for disappointment. Neither average about 40, and they’re not going to sort out the shocking state of England’s top three.
After the 2015 World Cup, the ECB decided to model their white ball stuff on what McCullum’s NZ we’re doing. It would be a good idea for them to model the test team on Williamson’s test match NZ team. Time to press the reset button, as the current set up is fundamentally flawed.
so.. when did that top 5 learn their trade?? it wasn't in the mid to late 2000's .. it was when they were kids , youth players etc... aka.. when the longer formats were where it was at.. players were bred for longer formats etc.
People say England won the wC because the ECB focussed on it for a few years.. rubbish.. the players who have turned out to be world class white ball players (Roy, Hales, Bairstow, Morgan, Buttler et all) have been trained from a young age to be white ball players.. NOT red ball players (well, more white ball who moonlight as red ball really)... hence move forward to your current 19-24yr olds who are potentially even better at white ball than the previous generation... bUT.. worse at red ball.. why.. not talent as the guys coming through are as talented as anyone.. just in a different way... it's purely that's what they are being trained up as .. they are growing up having hitting drilled into them.. both from a execution point of view but also their mentality.
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In my opinion, this is undoubtedly the impact T20 and Sky Sports have had on our game. I blane the ECB for their greed and for not seeing the bigger picture.
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Really, what the hell were England doing playing their 4th choice WK when the 2nd (arguably 1st) and 3rd choice were playing for their counties in T20 cricket? (The same players who are considered 'too important' to play championship cricket!)
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Bracey I think has been in and around the bubble for a year, it’s was too early for him you could see but I got confused when billings was called up as he isn’t the long form keeper at Kent.
I don’t fully understand why Butler and Woakes were not available but Boult played for them and he’s been in the IPL.
Butler playing as Foakes was injured may of given us an option to leave out a batsman as well and play the spinner.
I think England have got themselves in a bit of a tangle, we have not played the best test side for a while now(from the players we have)
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I'm wondering if being 'in and around the bubble' really makes you a better cricketer?
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Bracey I think has been in and around the bubble for a year, it’s was too early for him you could see but I got confused when billings was called up as he isn’t the long form keeper at Kent.
I don’t fully understand why Butler and Woakes were not available but Boult played for them and he’s been in the IPL.
Butler playing as Foakes was injured may of given us an option to leave out a batsman as well and play the spinner.
I think England have got themselves in a bit of a tangle, we have not played the best test side for a while now(from the players we have)
Silverwood’s fault. He’s trying to keep the box-office one day players happy, at the expense of the test team. If they are fit, they should play. If they are fit and they don’t want to play, then that tells you where their loyalties lie. Silverwood’s ridiculous policy of rotation has put the test team in a mess that is going to take quite some time to extract itself from.
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Silverwood’s fault. He’s trying to keep the box-office one day players happy, at the expense of the test team. If they are fit, they should play. If they are fit and they don’t want to play, then that tells you where their loyalties lie. Silverwood’s ridiculous policy of rotation has put the test team in a mess that is going to take quite some time to extract itself from.
I think we have learnt over the India away tour and this series just ended, rotation may well of been needed, but the only team that has actually been at a disadvantage is the test side.
I don’t think Root is a good captain or should be captain-but his hands have been tied over this it’s clear as day.
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I think we have learnt over the India away tour and this series just ended, rotation may well of been needed, but the only team that has actually been at a disadvantage is the test side.
I don’t think Root is a good captain or should be captain-but his hands have been tied over this it’s clear as day.
What's the point of being captain, then? Would he be in the team if he wasn't captain?
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What's the point of being captain, then? Would he be in the team if he wasn't captain?
What? Would Root be in the team if he wasn't captain? Is that what you're asking.
he is by an absolute street our best batsman.
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I can understand a good rotation policy, but you have to have the players that are good enough to make it work. We're lacking strength in depth in the batting, especially around the top of the order. Burns is getting better and I can see him being a long term opener if he keeps on his upward trajectory. Sibley and Crawley seem a bit lost at the moment, need to get back to playing to their strengths and why they were picked in the first place.
The seam bowling seems solid, if a little underwhelming this summer so far, but with a number rested, it gets better. Then we need a couple of spinners, including a spinning all rounder if possible.
If we can strengthen at the top and a couple of extra all-rounders, we can start looking like a decent test team again.
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What? Would Root be in the team if he wasn't captain? Is that what you're asking.
he is by an absolute street our best batsman.
And consistently in the top 5 test rankings for the past few years.
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And consistently in the top 5 test rankings for the past few years.
I know that, this is why in my opinion he must have a say in his team selection.
Otherwise he'll remain a top batsman but called a losing captain!
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so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough
Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier
Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)
Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost
Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.
Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..
people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)
The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.
people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all... realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..
I think you missed my point. Burns looks ok compared to Sibley. Both have similar issues so Burns looking to score seems like a plus to me otherwise you have two openers not looking to score and both getting out not doing their job. If Sibley's job is to blunt the attack, he's failed. "Protecting your middle order"? What middle order? That can't be a team plan if your team doesn't have the means to implement it. Gone are the days when the top order will grind down the bowlers only for the likes of Gilchrist and the like to run over helpless, tired bowlers. All your batsman need a good defence and attack. Well thats my opinion anyway.
I agree with your assessment of Pope. You can tell he's a good player and if he sorts his issues out well Id persevere with him.
I didn't say get T20 players in I said you have some amazing T20 players and so surely have some talented red ball cricketers (Given the amount of Pro players you have on the books)? I really don't know its a question I had for you English guys. I'm not saying pick Darren Stevens but are there some older guys that could do a job in the batting order holding it together and breaking up these young talented prospects?
I ENJOYED READING YOUR POST... ;)
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so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough
Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier
Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)
Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost
Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.
Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..
people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)
The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.
people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all... realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..
Whilst I agree that short format talent does not necessarily correlate with red ball talent, I fundamentally disagree that the top order are there to “blunt the attack”.
A basic fundamental of batting is “setting up to score” because it makes you move with purpose, and it also means you put away the bad ball when it arrives.
Our lack of intent to score cost us this series ultimately, as we could have potentially chased the NZ score on day 5 at lords.
I also think our county cricket set up needs an overhall. Not enough batsman in our test side have their basic fundamentals right.
Devon Conway for example, does 3 things really well - his batting fundamentals, and he also averages 80 odd in test cricket.
Ultimately,
Sibley is not good enough, Crawley is not good enough, and pope is not good enough (yet).
Malan has a proven international record in all formats, is scoring runs for fun, and therefore should come in for now.
Clarke is plundering runs too - the same should apply.
Westley got dropped too soon and averages 45 this season in the CC.
Adam Lythe would also be a better option than sibley.
As much as it pains me to say it - runs should be the only currency that matter - and on that basis, even Gary balance should be in the picture.
There are plenty of options out there - but the ECBs policy of jobs for the boys is killing English cricket.
Ollie Robinson has to come back in as soon as humanly possible.
Broad and Anderson need to be split up, Anderson is England’s best ever, broad is incredible on his day. But...Ollie Robinson is clamouring to be given the new ball.
I’ve said it before, multiple times, and I’ll say it again...Alec Stewart needs the England gig.
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I think you missed my point. Burns looks ok compared to Sibley. Both have similar issues so Burns looking to score seems like a plus to me otherwise you have two openers not looking to score and both getting out not doing their job. If Sibley's job is to blunt the attack, he's failed. "Protecting your middle order"? What middle order? That can't be a team plan if your team doesn't have the means to implement it. Gone are the days when the top order will grind down the bowlers only for the likes of Gilchrist and the like to run over helpless, tired bowlers. All your batsman need a good defence and attack. Well thats my opinion anyway.
I agree with your assessment of Pope. You can tell he's a good player and if he sorts his issues out well Id persevere with him.
I didn't say get T20 players in I said you have some amazing T20 players and so surely have some talented red ball cricketers (Given the amount of Pro players you have on the books)? I really don't know its a question I had for you English guys. I'm not saying pick Darren Stevens but are there some older guys that could do a job in the batting order holding it together and breaking up these young talented prospects?
I ENJOYED READING YOUR POST... ;)
Denly did a job for us, split opinion on here :) but we are now seeing it should of been medium term for him not short term.
Our our inexperienced batsmen won't make it thru the summer so England may well look to do as you suggest and break up the order with more experience.
That might be Malan with an eye who could also do that job in the winter. If Malan has some rough edges or has parts of his personality that don't appeal, there needs to be some give and take and work to fit in.
NZ have showed how to do the basics of test match batting which we need to follow. England have got things muddled and they need to be unmuddled and pretty quick.
We currently are dragging Root down to a more average level batting wise and he's the best we have.
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Malan has had one knock in the Championship this season. He scored 199 against a young and under-stength Sussex attack. Maybe that is scoring runs for fun?
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Malan has had one knock in the Championship this season. He scored 199 against a young and under-stength Sussex attack. Maybe that is scoring runs for fun?
You're cupboard may be overflowing with high scoring CC batsmen but most of ours isn't.
He's consistently scored runs for Middlesex before moving to Yorkshire and has International experience,which counts for something.
He was only dropped last time because Ed Smith labelled him a back foot horses for courses player,which considering he's scored most of his runs in England for Middlesex was beyond stupid.
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Jason Roy got some T20 runs this evening. I am fully expecting a recall for the India series.
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You're cupboard may be overflowing with high scoring CC batsmen but most of ours isn't.
He's consistently scored runs for Middlesex before moving to Yorkshire and has International experience,which counts for something.
So can I have 'Ollie Pope is scoring runs for fun'? What about Dom Sibley?
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Jason Roy got some T20 runs this evening. I am fully expecting a recall for the India series.
We all picked him. He was rubbish.
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so - Burns stays because he 'looks to score'.. you know that in test cricket whilst looking to score is good... you also, you know.. need to bat time CONSISTENTLY so that you soften the ball, make bowlers bowl 3-4-5 spells so that your middle order stroke makers (aka, the ones who 'look to score') can pick off runs EASIER (which suits them as otherwise they'll get exposed more regularly).. he's scored runs though so fair enough
Sibley - GONE.. no intent to score.... So Test teams and England NEED someone to bat time... Sure Sibley is never going to be a world beater (although I'm sure the England fans after a few runs will claim him to be like we do everyone else after a purple patch) but he's there to do a job. His job at the top of the order is not expose the middle order (which is FLAKY!!). If he does that by being 30* off 130 balls.. so what. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A MIDDLE ORDER of stroke makers to make hey when the going is easier
Crawley - Just doesn't really look good enough but unless you're throwing in Malan... There is LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE (if I see another call for Root, stokes, Bairstow, Pope then I'll assume that person really doesn't get Test match cricket and ignore them)
Pope - lIke everyone.. love the way he looks.. BUT.. JUST LIKE Bell in a way but also just like modern players... He's being too flashy.. to many shots.. to much 'intent'... He needs to remember it's a 5 day test match.. score when the bad balls are there, if they aren't... leave and defend.. this 'has all the talent' crap is just that.. good for a little while but he's now living off 'potential'.. time to deliver or get lost
Lawrence.. he's flavour of the month I see cause he got some runs. Lets see what his avg is after a longer period in different conditions before lauding him too much.
Amazing talent in 2020/ODI is TOTALLY TOTALLY different to Longer formats for christ sake.. Just cause Jacks for example and slog a few balls miles doesn't mean he's got the talent for longer formats.. if anything, excluding a true top end talent.. it quite literally means the opposite. The reason there are 'so many' talented white ball hitters is.. money.. It's where the money is for businessmen so they've prioritised the production line for those players. Could they have been top end longer format players.. Very likely.. but it's too late.. once you grow up only playing short formats you learn the skills for that, the mentality for that..
people may disagree but it's the same at amateur level.. They are dumbing down the game to shorter win lose formats (which people claim to be 'more fun', less 'dull' games') and then wonder why the level is worse and the tactics/skill sets are declining.. plus, just as many dull one sided games. If you only play short formats.. you will lose all the skills sets and abilities of being able top lay longer games (as a batter, bowler and captain)
The pro game isn't going to go back to longer formats now.. it's to invested in money making with businessmen/women at the top who are only concerned with getting every $$$ they can and the cricket really is just the 'product'. If they can keep the beer drinking , not really cricket fans filling the 'hollies' game in game out.. they are happy as pig in muck.
people really need to realise that the formats are generally great for diversity and giving a full spectrum of opportunity to players (who lets face it, have different enjoyments/skills which are suited to different formats) but also, the formats fit into different times of the week/day (aka.. 2020 is great for evening stuff for the kids post school or the beer heads before their Friday night out etc).. The formats suit DIFFERENT types of players, different skill sets/mentalities . The game needs all three formats as it caters for all types of players/abilities/interests but by moving the entire game basically towards 2020 styles it's not only limiting participation but also skills/interest and ultimately.. produces the same type of player.. aka.. hitters.. what is the difference really now between Bairstow, hales, roy, jacks, Warner, banton et all... realistically.. nothing.. all pretty much of a much in terms of what they can do 'on their day'..
Agree with this all!
I know you'll be able to answer this, my question is how come Indian T20 players became successful test and ODI players? Thanks
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So can I have 'Ollie Pope is scoring runs for fun'? What about Dom Sibley?
Pope is the most gifted young player in the Country, at his age he's way ahead of anyone else.
You know exactly what England are doing they are backing potential with a hope he settles in and starts repaying us with some better scores.
Let's see if England extend that run and work with him because as someone else pointed out, drop him and he's back scoring heavy for Surrey so what have they learnt?
Sibley I actually don't know about, he can bat all day but he's not scoring enough runs.
I suspect he will be given a bit longer as well. The England selectors are getting tested out.in my time watching England this is about he hardest time to get a settled order.
Root is our only top 6 batter from the current series averaging more than 34, I don't ever remember that happening before.
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Pope is the most gifted young player in the Country, at his age he's way ahead of anyone else.
You know exactly what England are doing they are backing potential with a hope he settles in and starts repaying us with some better scores.
Let's see if England extend that run and work with him because as someone else pointed out, drop him and he's back scoring heavy for Surrey so what have they learnt?
Sibley I actually don't know about, he can bat all day but he's not scoring enough runs.
I suspect he will be given a bit longer as well. The England selectors are getting tested out.in my time watching England this is about he hardest time to get a settled order.
Root is our only top 6 batter from the current series averaging more than 34, I don't ever remember that happening before.
How long do you back potential for though? It could be argued that Pope is actually regressing as a test match batsman.
Sibley’s time is limited. He might be able to bore bowlers to death, but he also needs to be able to score runs. He has a big flaw against the ball that moves late and away from him too - two bowling line ups he won’t want to face are India and Australia. I think it’s going to be a tough summer for the poor old chap.
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Sibley and Crawley are conceivably the only 2 in any danger TBH, as remember this test series was missing our main middle order.
Stokes and Buttler back in, stick with Pope because he is the future and you are only going to find out 1 way.
You always have the option of playing Buttler as a batter and Foakes with the gloves. Stokes bats 3, Buttler 5, Pope 6 etc.... just an option if things are going really pear shaped.
For me Sibleys game isn't adept enough and the good bowlers are working him out. Blooding a new opener now isn't easy so if anyone replaces him I would expect it will be Hameed.
Crawley is having a lot of brain fade moments and if they don't stop soon then Malan might be the answer, giving some experience and is decent against pace for the Ashes.
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Adam Lythe would also be a better option than sibley.
As much as it pains me to say it - runs should be the only currency that matter - and on that basis, even Gary balance should be in the picture.
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When people “talk averages”, Gary Ballance is a prime example. He still averages around 37.5 for England.
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Big fan of the Ballance talk coming back!
If things had gone differently, Ballance, Vince, Lyth, Westley could have been our top order for a couple of years by now.
We seem to have a few county batsmen who are either not good enough or the England test set-up is not good enough to produce class test batsmen. On recent evidence, I'm pretty sure it is the latter.
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Meanwhile, in the Vitality Blast...
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When people “talk averages”, Gary Ballance is a prime example. He still averages around 37.5 for England.
Has he stopped missing straight balls yet?
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Has he stopped missing straight balls yet?
has Bairstow stopped getting bowled through the gate yet?
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has Bairstow stopped getting bowled through the gate yet?
Nope. Neither should be in the test side as they have obvious flaws in their technique (like a lot of England batters at present).
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Nope. Neither should be in the test side as they have obvious flaws in their technique (like a lot of England batters at present).
and yet Bairstow is always one of the first to get mentioned about a re-call sadly
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I was very much underwhelmed by the appointment of Chris Silverwood in the first place - it seemed to be driven by virtue signalling from Ashley Giles that the next coach had to be English rather than picking the best available candidate for the job - and his performance so far has been very much underwhelming.
Ed Smith carried the can for selection decisions over the winter but, on the evidence so far, Silverwood either had more of a say on selection than Smith, or they were broadly of the same opinion when it came to the balancing the side.
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Good to see the Robinson mess has been dealt with in a sensible way. Deemed to have served his ban already, future ban suspended, token fine which his test game fees will cover and then some. Get him back in the test side as he's clearly an asset.
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Totally agree, he’s been punished enough.
Interesting listening to Holding on historical tweets/comments. The ECB could do well to let Holding formulate the way forward and how to deal with these matters.
The Witch hunt for Robinson has achieved nothing. So far there’s no action against the bigger names players and that may show trying to make an example of a player does no good.
Education is the only way forward.
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Couldn’t agree more ! The lad has owned up for his mistakes, paid the penalty and openly been accept back around the England camp. He has shown remorse and is willing to work his (No Swearing Please) off to get another England gig (which is deserved based off his numbers) but let’s hope this is standard set for the current/future England crop of players.