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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: petehosk on July 16, 2012, 10:02:33 AM

Title: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 16, 2012, 10:02:33 AM
The long awaiting battle for the number 1 test spot is almost here!
Shame about a certain excellent keeper being injured as that puts a little dampener on the series.
But with AB taking the gloves, the SA batting line-up has the promise of being even stronger  :o

The only real question from an English point of view is whether we risk Finn or stick with Bresnan (if his elbow niggle has gone!)?

Andrew Strauss (capt)
Alastair Cook
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Ian Bell
Ravi Bopara
Matt Prior (wk)
Tim Bresnan or Steven Finn
Stuart Broad
Graeme Swann
James Anderson

Additional Squad members: Onions
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 16, 2012, 10:12:49 AM
You've got to play your best bowlers, therefore Finn should play.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 10:22:10 AM
Will certainly be an enthralling series, even if the ECB have made it far too damn short and the weather is conspiring against it.

On the England attack, I suspect they may go for Finn, who bowled with accuracy and pace in the one dayers against Australia whilst Bresnan looked a touch below his best, probably feeling the injury.  With the Yarpies undercooked, Finn's habit of attacking the stumps might be beneficial as well.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2012, 10:23:08 AM
You've got to play your best bowlers, therefore Finn should play.

I'm not that sure Bresnan isn't one of our best bowlers!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 10:23:27 AM
Bresnan is a quality bowler, with great control of reverse swing and can obviously bat.

Finn is doing great in ODIs but Onions outbowled him at Edgbaston. Finn is not controlled enough yet to be third seamer.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: legger123 on July 16, 2012, 10:29:48 AM
I literally can't wait for the Test Series, shame it wasn't 5 Test's really!
However the third seamer spot, I literally don't have a clue who'll get it, I still think that Onions would be good. But I'm definitely can't wait for the Series.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Pitbull on July 16, 2012, 10:42:33 AM
I think Bresnan has to be picked ahead of Finn, he's been so consistent and bowls with control. I think Finn can be a bit expensive at times, plus as already said Bresnan can reverse the ball and of course bat.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 16, 2012, 10:47:55 AM
I like Finn, but I can't see what Bresnan has done wrong to get dropped, plus he offers more with the bat.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 16, 2012, 11:06:07 AM
I agree I don't think Bresnan has done anything wrong, just for me - our batting is strong enough and we also bat long. I just think Finn is a better bowler and offers a lot more in the bowling attack with his pace.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 11:12:39 AM
the point is more that Bresnan does not appear to be 100% fit at the moment for me.  If he were, he'd have to be in the side.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2012, 11:32:42 AM
If Bresnan isn't 100% fit then fair enough, we can't afford to carry anyone in a 4 man attack....I'd still consider Onions though...I think he's a class bowler and possibly offers a better option than Finn if conditions suit him. If it's likely to swing about you have to pick Onions...you can't go into a game in swinging conditions with only Anderson capable of actually swing the ball!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on July 16, 2012, 11:40:49 AM
This will be Englands biggest test by far as the South Africans are a seriously tough team packed with matchwinners.
Everything England can do will be equally matched by SA and it will come down to whoever wins certain sessions within each test match. Man for man there is little to choose between them and SA might even shade it from a neutrals point of view.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 11:44:25 AM
I'm afeared of Dale Steyn
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 11:56:45 AM
Well if you were to pick the best possible composite XI:
Smith
Strauss
Trott
Amla
Kallis
Pietersen
Prior/De Villiers
Swann
Philander/Broad
Anderson
Steyn

Then its five four to England with two 50/50 calls.

BUT....if you compare head to head it swings in the Yarpies favour as Smith tops Strauss, Amla does for Trott and Kallis for Pietersen.  Indeed, there are only Cook, Prior, Swann and Anderson guaranteed spots for England.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2012, 11:57:54 AM
Based on recent form you wouldn't have Smith in there....Cook is a long way ahead of him... ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Based on recent form you wouldn't have Smith in there....Cook is a long way ahead of him... ;)

depends - if Cook can be guaranteed to get to 20, sure.  But he does tend to make none or plenty.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 12:00:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMVDa_ya_f4&feature=g-all-c

I wouldn't be sure about Kallis on form ...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 12:00:32 PM
Kallis is a class player though.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2012, 12:00:55 PM
Cook will score more runs in this series than Smith.....I bet you!  :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 12:03:26 PM
Kallis is a class player though.

Not in England...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 12:16:18 PM
thats a big call to make!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 12:24:29 PM
Avg 29
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 12:26:06 PM
does not make him a bad player, does it?  No more than a statistical anomaly!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on July 16, 2012, 12:46:35 PM
does not make him a bad player, does it?  No more than a statistical anomaly!

Wasn't it a Sightscreen Anomaly?

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tushar sehgal on July 16, 2012, 12:48:16 PM
this is going to be a mouth watering contest, should be fun to watch.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2012, 12:50:38 PM
thats a big call to make!

MASSIVE call! But I'm feeling lucky!  :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 01:01:12 PM
It may be a statistical anomaly, but like Ricky Ponting in India, a significant one.
Saffer batting looks very strong though. A motivated Duminy at 7 is some order.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 01:02:48 PM
less so than Ponting in India - that suggests a struggle in alien conditionss, whereas we know that Kallis can bat in our conditions perfectly well because he's done it both here in teh county game and in similar conditions elsewhere.  So, an anomaly.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 16, 2012, 01:06:38 PM
I would also put Cook ahead of Smith.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 01:09:12 PM
Ponting averages 48.20 in Sri Lanka, which are similar conditions to India, so he can in theory bat in Indian conditions perfectly well.

Kallis has played 12 Tests in England, which could be enough of a case study to disprove the anomaly theory.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 16, 2012, 01:13:00 PM
Less similar than you might think from what I'm told (no direct experience to work off). 

Lets look at it the other way - if Kallis' record in England is not a statistical anomaly, how would you explain it?  He has no succession of dismissals to one bowler who might have the wood on him, nor does he have technical flaws that would account...?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 01:20:17 PM
Bowled and lbw seem to be fairly common in the video posted. Inswing/inseam a factor?

It may be mental, with SA considering winning in England their zenith (though maybe winning in Aus in 2009 is also a big achievement) and he's often carried a reputation for not necessarily fronting up (I agree that this may well be unfair). It's perhaps an extra weight on his shoulders and I don't mean his rug!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 16, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
The best combined 11 imo would be:

Smith
Cook
Trott
Amla
Pietersen
Kallis
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Steyn

For the two 50/50's that Manormanic had I went for Prior ahead of De Villiers because both are very good batsmen but Prior is easily the best wicketkeeper in the world at the moment and Broad ahead of Philander because Broad is more of an all-rounder and I love all-rounders..

This makes it seem like England are far superior however as stated previously, when the Saffers have better players, the difference is far larger than when England have the better players. For example Steyn is a considerable amount better than Anderson whereas Broad is only just better than Philander.

EDIT: In that video he seemed to have a serious weakness against the in-swinger due to the way he plants his front foot quite far across very early on making it difficult for him to get the bat around his pad. He also seemed to get out quite a bit to Anderson, could that be a good sign ahead of the series?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on July 16, 2012, 01:40:30 PM
The best combined 11 imo would be:

Smith
Cook
Trott
Amla
Pietersen
Kallis
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Steyn

I think this is a good amalgamation - It is just that AB would be one of my first pics. Looking at this team, I would have to drop one of Amla or Trott to fit him in - so on the basis that Amla is an Artist, Trott goes Amla shunts up to 3 and AB is at four.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 16, 2012, 01:42:57 PM
Smith
Cook
Amla
Pietersen
Trott/Bell
AB
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Steyn
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 16, 2012, 01:50:11 PM
I would go for
Cook
Amla
Trott
Pietersen
Kallis
AB
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Steyn
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 17, 2012, 09:45:11 AM
I would go for
Cook
Amla
Trott
Pietersen
Kallis
AB
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Steyn

Can't disagree with this, though it depends on which Broad and Morkel turn up.  Also, Ian Bell is in superb form at the moment.  Just shows what a great series this should be, so much talent involved.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 17, 2012, 12:52:57 PM

This makes it seem like England are far superior however as stated previously, when the Saffers have better players, the difference is far larger than when England have the better players. For example Steyn is a considerable amount better than Anderson whereas Broad is only just better than Philander.



IMO Steyn is nowhere near a considerable amount better than Anderson, if at all better...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 17, 2012, 01:04:36 PM

IMO Steyn is nowhere near a considerable amount better than Anderson, if at all better...

Especially in English conditions.....if the ball swings then Jimmy A is the master.....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 17, 2012, 01:09:15 PM
Jimmy seems to have sacrificed a little speed but gained a lot more control!
Still think that there is little to choose between the teams! One player having a good day is likely to make the difference! That's what makes this series exciting!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on July 17, 2012, 06:57:07 PM
...or several players having a bad day! (see England v Pakistan, 2012 for details)

I think that if each team plays to their full potential then England should still come out on top - however, my personal perception is that SA are a bit more consistent than England. Whilst England's peaks are possibly slightly higher than SA's, there troughs are much lower!!

Then again, I'm sure that this time last year we would have been speculating about what a close and hard fought series we'd be having against India, but we seemingly bent them over and thought of England
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 17, 2012, 07:07:20 PM
Playing against better teams seems to bring the best out of this current England squad. In our conditions I'm expecting an English win in the series, I'll go for 2-0 with one being washed out but with SA on top.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: legger123 on July 17, 2012, 07:11:13 PM
I'm getting more and more excited the closer to the start of the series gets!
Tomorrow I'll be bouncing of the walls I reckon.

Going to be a very good series to watch, I agree with Vantage though, reckon it'll be a 2-0 win to England.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tushar sehgal on July 17, 2012, 07:14:35 PM
India doesn't have the bowling line-up to bother the English, Aussie line up is young and with potential but will need time...I think SA will provide a much sterner test for Cook, Bell, Strauss etc then India ever did or can dream of...which is a shame as you would think from a country of abt 1.5 billion ppl you could find 2-3 decent fast bowlers...oh how i envy you guys...


I can't wait to see Steyn, Philander, Morkel going at english top order and similarly Anderson, Finn and Broad taking Smith apart :)..hope the rain stays away..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on July 17, 2012, 07:51:24 PM
I think the main part of this series will be the middle order battle, trott, Kp and bell vs amla, kallis and ab.

the bowlers on each side have the edge over the openers, so it. is whichever middle order fires.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 17, 2012, 08:47:32 PM
Comment from Steyn in the Sunday Times:

"Frankly, I just want to take wickets and scare the s*** out of people".

I'm sure you'll do that Dale...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: MD2812 on July 17, 2012, 09:19:11 PM
Anyone else severely disappointed at this being a 3 test series?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajm90 on July 17, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
Anyone else severely disappointed at this being a 3 test series?

Yes  >:( especially as we managed to have time to play a long series against the West indies.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 19, 2012, 07:39:43 AM
I've heard a rumour on twitter that Steyn has gone and doen a Glenn McGrath 2005 style and is out of the 1st test.  Whoever runs the forum twitter account is now very excited!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on July 19, 2012, 07:55:20 AM
Steyn is out and sun has hit south-east London - what a mouthwatering prospect!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 19, 2012, 07:58:13 AM
Steyn is out and sun has hit south-east London - what a mouthwatering prospect!

It is just a rumour!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on July 19, 2012, 08:56:18 AM
fan the flames - rumour source looks like bumble!

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?p=13007073
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 19, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
oh dear!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 19, 2012, 09:11:24 AM
To be honest, Bumble tends to be off his rocker on twitter, so I wouldn't pay attention to it
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Canners on July 19, 2012, 09:12:03 AM
cant believe i turned down tickets today now.... im GUTTED
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 19, 2012, 09:15:14 AM
Gonna be an awesome series! I think it will be tight but I think South Africa has a bit more depth in batting and bowling departments at the moment. I suspect the English batsmen have not been tested by a good pace attack n a while and this Is the most experienced SA batting line up in a long while. Smith seems to love playing in England and Amla, Kallis and De Villiers's records speak for themselves. Not to forget that Rudolph seems to have a fairly decent track record n County Cricket and will be familiar with the bowlers and conditions. Gives Duminy a great opportunity to cement his place in the side.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 19, 2012, 09:18:53 AM
that's a massive blow for the saffers and also for the contest.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 19, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
Has Steyn's injury officially been confirmed?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 19, 2012, 09:43:34 AM
No.  Haven't seen anything on cricinfo or BBC confirming he is out.  Think bumble was on a wind up!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 19, 2012, 09:52:28 AM
It's been confirmed that Steyn is fit and playing and Bresnan holds off Finn.

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 19, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
England: Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Bell, Bopara, Prior, Bresnan, Broad, Swann, Anderson.

South Africa: Smith, Petersen, Amla, Kallis, De Villiers, Rudolph, Duminy, Steyn, Morkel, Tahir, Philander.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 19, 2012, 09:57:50 AM
England win toss and Bat - big decision. Personally I would've bowled with the weather around.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ProWannabe88 on July 19, 2012, 09:59:50 AM
England win toss and Bat - big decision. Personally I would've bowled with the weather around.

I thought that mate. Could be a strange decision that. Thought Strauss may have backed the bowling attack to knock over a few saffas early with the overhead conditions hmmmm
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 19, 2012, 10:04:34 AM
Indeed, but at least it shows the confidence he's putting in the batting and also get first use of the pitch. Only time will tell if it was a good decision.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ProWannabe88 on July 19, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
Yeah, only time will tell. Could also be trusting the reputation of the oval wickets. They always turn after a day or two and Swann is a far superior bowler to Tahir
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 19, 2012, 10:17:56 AM
Very interesting. Might be that he wants to make a bi of a statement first up.
Could go either way. Let the games begin!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on July 19, 2012, 10:36:24 AM
saw a twitter feed saying the wicket was "very dry". I think that might have alot to do with it.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 19, 2012, 11:33:13 AM
Looks like an absolutely flat dog of a wicket!
Very dry, possibly the result of hang it under covers for a long time and thinking that there would be no need to add any moisture because of the inclement weather conditions.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 19, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Sounds like SA's bowlers are resorting to their usual tactics of trying to bore a batsman out.  Wrong 2 guys to play that trick on!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on July 19, 2012, 02:59:31 PM
Sounds like SA's bowlers are resorting to their usual tactics of trying to bore a batsman out.  Wrong 2 guys to play that trick on!

Ask the Aussies if that works?

500/1........
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 19, 2012, 03:09:13 PM
Cook and Trott can play boring bowling all day!
They need to try that tactic with KP, as it's likely to work better on him!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 19, 2012, 04:00:17 PM
Let's see if they try it then... KP's in!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 19, 2012, 06:39:03 PM
Having spent the day at the oval, my observation would be that if you don't make the batsman play then it makes it a lot easier for them. Morkel And Steyn were both mostly too short and wide. Philander made trott play and miss more than either. Really it looked like an in form batting pair against an out of sorts pace attack. Let's see what happens tomorrow....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 19, 2012, 06:46:53 PM
Few ales Tim?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Batoff on July 19, 2012, 06:57:47 PM
I think spell check got the better of him!

Normal and Strum? nice
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on July 19, 2012, 07:12:54 PM
Well tee'd up for my day there wit the AOC boys tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing us bat for a good couple of sessions then sticking them in for the last session with any luck to nip out a few quick wickets!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 19, 2012, 07:15:32 PM
Keep your phone on Tom as Pedals and I will be tracking you down tomorrow!  8)
We'll be in the Chav section though compared to the executive suite you'll be in!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 19, 2012, 08:21:29 PM
I think spell check got the better of him!

Normal and Strum? nice
Few ales Tim?
Ales, sparkly stuff and a couple of wines! Good day out though.

Normal and Strum were really quite disappointing. Strum really didn't seem to be the threat we were all expecting and even the saffas behind us wondered whether he was injured as he didn't take the new ball at the start.

I think what will tell will be the English bowling because the pitch seems fairly true and has few demons. The consensus of people not listening to the commentary was that 450 was a minimum safe score on this!

You guys going tomorrow should get a decent days cricket in, and some decent weather to boot!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 19, 2012, 09:40:24 PM
During the quiet periods of play post tea, the Oval ban on Beer Glass Snakes was clearly not being adhered to and the stewards were ignoring it too!

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/12070031.jpg)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 20, 2012, 09:49:40 AM
Is that Michael Vaughan above the beer snake? Or am I not awake yet?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 20, 2012, 10:11:10 AM
Is that Michael Vaughan above the beer snake? Or am I not awake yet?

probably, he's a lad.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 20, 2012, 10:25:46 AM
Cook and Bopara out early on Day 2, 272-5
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: johnnyw on July 20, 2012, 10:29:06 AM
Should have kept Bairstow in the team
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on July 20, 2012, 10:31:38 AM
nah, he needs to go work on some issues then come back, Bopara was the right choice given his ODI form and Morgan's poor winter, but I still don't think he's good enough. We've a head of depth in bowling but an England second XI would be a pretty weak batting side.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 20, 2012, 10:35:00 AM
I think my tweet may have put the mockers on this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/18918488
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 20, 2012, 10:42:32 AM
Should have kept Bairstow in the team

Bairstow struggled against the West Indies, who are nowhere near as good as South Africa.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 20, 2012, 11:08:05 AM
It's still an even playing field until both teams have batted.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on July 20, 2012, 11:14:02 AM
agree. Surface could be too dry and things are starting to get tricky but you just don't know yet.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 21, 2012, 11:50:12 AM
2 of the hardest batsmen in test cricket in Smith and Amla to dismiss batting very well
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 21, 2012, 12:02:00 PM
Smith brings up his hundred in style.. Consecutive boundaries
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on July 21, 2012, 12:19:09 PM
Gonna be a long day in the field, Smith and Amla looking rock solid ... and only Kallis and AB to come in next ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: spl on July 21, 2012, 01:06:13 PM
I could sit and watch Amla bat all day......just less so when he's batting against England!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 21, 2012, 02:38:21 PM
nah, he needs to go work on some issues then come back, Bopara was the right choice given his ODI form and Morgan's poor winter, but I still don't think he's good enough. We've a head of depth in bowling but an England second XI would be a pretty weak batting side.

England First XI batting line up would be pretty weak...if you take out the South Africans. :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 21, 2012, 02:48:59 PM
There are tons of good English county batsmen, the problem is most of them seem to struggle to make the step up when facing international standard bowling. A good example of this how the England Lions were torn apart by the England first team. The only way we are going to produce better county players who can deal with international standard bowling is to improve the quality of bowling in the county game.

England have looked very flat and allowed the South Africans to play the game their way, they need to put the pressure back on and stop bowling so many on leg.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 21, 2012, 03:20:07 PM
Judging by a few of these comments you would think that England aren't the no1 ranked team in the world!  ;)

Flat pitch, ball not moving = practically impossible to get international class batsmen out. If we were batting now, in these conditions the result would be the same...we'd be lots for none...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 21, 2012, 03:21:34 PM
There are tons of good English county batsmen, the problem is most of them seem to struggle to make the step up when facing international standard bowling. A good example of this how the England Lions were torn apart by the England first team. The only way we are going to produce better county players who can deal with international standard bowling is to improve the quality of bowling in the county game.

England have looked very flat and allowed the South Africans to play the game their way, they need to put the pressure back on and stop bowling so many on leg.

I think there are many excellent county bowlers, so it can't be that. Or atleast that alone.

I still blame T20 messing with techniques.

How does a Bopara look so good at T20 or ODI level, yet be so inept at test level?

That is just one example of many that could be made.

The Saffers are a strong batting line up and this pitch does look like a belter...so it is a bit early to tell where things are going.

By the end of this series we will have a clearer picture of where everything at the top of the tree is at.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 21, 2012, 03:35:10 PM
England First XI batting line up would be pretty weak...if you take out the South Africans. :)

My thoughts exactly.Thought about putting this up on Thursday. Brings me to an interesting point. Why are so many South Africans who couldn't cut it In SA and who then move over to England doing so well in county cricket and then even end up playing for England? Pietersen, Trott, Tendoschate, Moore etc.
Are they simply getting more opportunities or is the County standard a bit lower? I know this might rub some people up the wrong way but the amount of SAffers who go over and make it is fairly high.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 21, 2012, 05:00:46 PM
My thoughts exactly.Thought about putting this up on Thursday. Brings me to an interesting point. Why are so many South Africans who couldn't cut it In SA and who then move over to England doing so well in county cricket and then even end up playing for England? Pietersen, Trott, Tendoschate, Moore etc.
Are they simply getting more opportunities or is the County standard a bit lower? I know this might rub some people up the wrong way but the amount of SAffers who go over and make it is fairly high.

Trott was a late bloomer it seems.

Pietersen simply rubbed everybody the wrong way and told the SACU to go forth and multiply.

Both would have made it had they stayed.

Strauss and Prior's parents immigrated for economic reasons and both left SA fairly young.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Cys1 on July 21, 2012, 05:10:21 PM
Actually not so sure about that. Pietersen never got into his provincial side, the quota system was stil only starting off and only 1 or 2 previously disadvantaged players were  required per side, and Trott was not able to get a franchise contract.
Was actually speaking about other guys who also couldn't make I over here who have gone to the UK and are now playing county cricket as well.
Just an interesting anomaly.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Sam to the C on July 22, 2012, 01:58:03 AM
this match if anything proves what a brilliant waste of space Stuart Broad is, England could easily replace him for Finn who is taller, instead of the popular Bresnan/Bopara, Bresnan who seems a better bowler and batsmen for that matter, if they want balance they need to stop looking at the name and look at the talent
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on July 22, 2012, 07:28:36 AM
Anyone there today?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tumo on July 22, 2012, 07:44:51 AM
this match if anything proves what a brilliant waste of space Stuart Broad is, England could easily replace him for Finn who is taller, instead of the popular Bresnan/Bopara, Bresnan who seems a better bowler and batsmen for that matter, if they want balance they need to stop looking at the name and look at the talent
Are you kidding me? In his last 11 tests he's taken 54 wickets at 20! He EVEN did well in the UAE against Pakistan, taking 13 wickets at 20! He's been a revelation since the India series last year. He may not be to everyone's taste as a character, but you cannot deny his ability, and his ability to take wickets. Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Finn, Swann should be the bowling, personally. Leave out Rav, bat Prior at 6.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 22, 2012, 08:45:36 AM
Actually not so sure about that. Pietersen never got into his provincial side, the quota system was stil only starting off and only 1 or 2 previously disadvantaged players were  required per side, and Trott was not able to get a franchise contract.
Was actually speaking about other guys who also couldn't make I over here who have gone to the UK and are now playing county cricket as well.
Just an interesting anomaly.

and probably a financial one.  They were toughened cricketers available for a fraction of what it would cost a county to raise one of similar standard from scratch.  I don't think its particularly that they were better than what was here, just that there are so nmany placesfwith 18 counties and those nice EU loopholes.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 22, 2012, 08:48:37 AM
There are tons of good English county batsmen, the problem is most of them seem to struggle to make the step up when facing international standard bowling. A good example of this how the England Lions were torn apart by the England first team.

I suspect the same would happen in any club, county etc - if you give team A the first pick of a pool of players well known to them, you'd expect that the resulting side would be stronger than the best of whatever is left, no?

Especially so in one day cricket, where the England "A" side has lots of international experience and takes the big hitters, whilst the B side is inexperienced, filled with young lads unfamiliar with the format and has its hitters taken away to the A side.  No, the result was not ina ny way surprising or representative.  Look instead at their creditable performances against other nations A sides and recent touring teams!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 22, 2012, 10:39:51 AM
Great knock by Amla for is double ton
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 22, 2012, 11:55:42 AM
I suspect the same would happen in any club, county etc - if you give team A the first pick of a pool of players well known to them, you'd expect that the resulting side would be stronger than the best of whatever is left, no?

Especially so in one day cricket, where the England "A" side has lots of international experience and takes the big hitters, whilst the B side is inexperienced, filled with young lads unfamiliar with the format and has its hitters taken away to the A side.  No, the result was not ina ny way surprising or representative.  Look instead at their creditable performances against other nations A sides and recent touring teams!

Unfamiliar with the format? I'm pretty certain every Cricketer in the world understands 50 over cricket.. The Lions aren't just a random group of young players put together, they are some of the best players in England. The Lions had the likes of James Taylor, Joe Root, Alex Hales and Jonny Bairstow who are expected to be key parts of the England team in a few years, yet against international standard bowling they crumbled.

It shows that there is a massive gap between the Lions and the first team which is not good as it is competition which creates great teams.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 22, 2012, 12:11:13 PM
Any guesses when SA will declare?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 22, 2012, 12:52:15 PM
I think Broad is trying to see how many fours Kallis can hit him through covers for
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on July 22, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
As a neutral this is brilliant to watch (and that would apply if the tables were turned).
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 22, 2012, 02:34:57 PM
The questions begs to be asked...what impact does this have on the English bowlers for the rest of this series?

Will they write it off as just a dead wicket?

Or will they carry some psychological scarring at the mauling they have copped from an admittedly top class Saffer batting line up?

Time will tell I suppose...but, it is hard to single any one bowler out for dropping, because they have all been as equally ineffectual as each other..

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 22, 2012, 04:00:20 PM
The South Africans are bowling far better than we did and are reaping their rewards. 36-2.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 22, 2012, 05:58:20 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

To say I'm a happy boy is an understatement

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: pacman75cricket on July 22, 2012, 06:10:19 PM
Bit conerning how SA got movemenmt + presusure compared to the English bowlers.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 22, 2012, 06:46:33 PM
Unfamiliar with the format? I'm pretty certain every Cricketer in the world understands 50 over cricket.. The Lions aren't just a random group of young players put together, they are some of the best players in England. The Lions had the likes of James Taylor, Joe Root, Alex Hales and Jonny Bairstow who are expected to be key parts of the England team in a few years, yet against international standard bowling they crumbled.

It shows that there is a massive gap between the Lions and the first team which is not good as it is competition which creates great teams.

Understands, yes.  But of the four you mention none have played the game at List A level over 50 overs, and the cadences are different to the 40 over version, especially against a superior first XI side - bear in mind that two of those players already have senior international experience and have done okay for themselves, so they can't be to far short of the standard and I'm sure that if it was the England side and the Lions side mix-and-match you'd have seen dfferent performances.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on July 22, 2012, 11:30:19 PM
What an incredible days cricket. Amla and Kallis had to be stopped only by a declaration!
I cant believe that the mighty Hashim Amla managed to plunder 300 runs and he is actually fasting for Ramadan.
Is there any truth in this as surely this beggars belief ??
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: langer17 on July 23, 2012, 04:31:49 AM
What an incredible days cricket. Amla and Kallis had to be stopped only by a declaration!
I cant believe that the mighty Hashim Amla managed to plunder 300 runs and he is actually fasting for Ramadan.
Is there any truth in this as surely this beggars belief ??

They said on the cricinfo commentary that he does not fast on match days.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: langer17 on July 23, 2012, 04:55:11 AM
"10.55am Play will start in a couple of minutes...could be a morning of milestones. Those of you who missed the information yesterday, Hashim Amla is not fasting on match-days (same goes for Imran Tahir)."
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 23, 2012, 05:02:30 AM
Good old Georgy Dobell who was predicting a ten zip Ashes triumph next year seems to have become far more circumspect in his latest column.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2012/content/current/story/573523.html

He is now talking about "inconvenient truths" etc.

If the pitch was juiced up to suit Anderson, Bresnan and co, there would have been far less runs scored. But of course the groundsman didn't do that under instruction from ECCB, because unlike the fans, teh ECCB know that anything Anderson, Broad, Bresnan and co can do, Steyn, Philander and Morkel can do better.

If England go down this test as they are likely to do, you can bet your last pound that in desperation, the ECCB will order two juiced up seaming decks in the next two tests to try and turn the tables.

Personally, I think that is their best chance, even allowing for the retaliatory threat offered by Steyn and co.

Anyways, let's see if Bopara can make a hero of himself by scoring and epic all day century.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on July 23, 2012, 06:18:29 AM
George Dobell certainly has the faith to put his nuts on the line.

I think SA should wrap this game up by tea.
I really hope that Bell and Bopara can do well today, but the reality is that it will not be enough.

awesome toss to lose I think. brilliant batting. the way amla and kallis batted against swann was a masterclass in playing spin with no risk.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Joe on July 23, 2012, 06:21:12 AM
Surely Finn in for the next test. Surely.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on July 23, 2012, 06:26:02 AM
Surely Finn in for the next test. Surely.

Finn has been awesome in the 50 over games, but didn't do himself any favours in the test with the WIndies, he was decidedly average there.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 23, 2012, 08:09:44 AM
George Dobell certainly has the faith to put his nuts on the line.

I think SA should wrap this game up by tea.
I really hope that Bell and Bopara can do well today, but the reality is that it will not be enough.

awesome toss to lose I think. brilliant batting. the way amla and kallis batted against swann was a masterclass in playing spin with no risk.

On the toss, I read somewhere that Smith has won something like 70% of games from losing the toss, and only about 27% from winning it.  Morale of the story is, try and lose the toss.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 23, 2012, 11:37:15 AM
I wish that Bopara did himself justice in this Test. I don't know why he doesn't succeed. Is it mental strength, ability (doubtful) or just bad luck? It seems its always when he puts on an England test shirt!

Well he's managed to get himself out playing on from one outside off in a game situation where all he needs to do is survive.

Like you, I'm a fan of his, think he's a very talented lad, just get the impression that he feels he has to prove himself so tries to force things.  Hopefully they'll stand by him for the series though, so he'll get a crack at this again.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: slipstream86 on July 23, 2012, 01:35:29 PM
Well he's managed to get himself out playing on from one outside off in a game situation where all he needs to do is survive.

Like you, I'm a fan of his, think he's a very talented lad, just get the impression that he feels he has to prove himself so tries to force things.  Hopefully they'll stand by him for the series though, so he'll get a crack at this again.

Hope so

If they're planning to stick with him they should tell him. Ravi's gonna be thinking that he'll be dropped unless he performs in this one match. I'ts a bit too much pressure on him, knowing that his place depends entirely on one innings.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 23, 2012, 01:39:46 PM
he needs to be given until the end of the India series but to be told that he either makes it by then or, permanently, goodbye.  Joe Root should come in for the New Zealand series if he fails (indeed, should play there as part of a rotation policy anyways)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on July 23, 2012, 01:43:21 PM
Lets see if bresnan can keep his place with the bat...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on July 23, 2012, 02:17:29 PM
Writings on the wall now bar the fat boy singing!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 23, 2012, 02:19:45 PM
They deserve this one! Bell has been patient but that's all judging by the cricinfo commentory!
If we'd have batted out a draw, it would have been an injustice so regroup and try harder in the next test I say!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 23, 2012, 02:32:52 PM
England certainly haven't looked like the number 1 test team in the world in this game... We've been walked over as easily as we have walked over other sides.

For me what is interesting is that we just don't seem to be able to play on pitches that are remotely sub-continental in style - slow and dry. This is very similar to those in the UAE where we were so poor against Pakistan....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: alexhilly1492 on July 23, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
England loose by an innings and 12 runs, didnt look like the best side in the world, 2 tests left, time for the selectors to go for steve finn?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 23, 2012, 03:05:42 PM
Why is always Bresnan and never Broad that looks at getting dropped?

Bresnan is a better bat, bowls quicker, and probably (without looked) as a better bowling avaerage
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: cricketbadger on July 23, 2012, 03:10:05 PM
Why is always Bresnan and never Broad that looks at getting dropped?

Bresnan is a better bat, bowls quicker, and probably (without looked) as a better bowling avaerage

I agree, Broad is over-rated in my opinion
And i cant see Bopara performing well in Tests, never viewed him as anything more than a decent ODI batter who can bowl a bit
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ppccopener on July 23, 2012, 03:12:31 PM
i'd have bresnan in over broad too

Finn in at headingly i hope

but SA have outplayed England simple as that(im an england fan)
hope someone looks at the way we have given wickets away in this match.

do that against the best sides and you get punished-and we did

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 23, 2012, 03:17:38 PM
Broad has lost his pace, doesn't really swing it, and is not scoring any runs like he used to do down the order, all in all doesn't really warrant his place at the moment

Broad and Bresnan out

Finn and Nick Compton (presuming he would play for England) in!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 23, 2012, 03:24:36 PM
Well played Jacques Kallis. I duly go to wash the egg off my face.

England are a very good team. They are excellent when they face teams willing to go at them, like Australia, or show a lack of application, like India and WI, with the bat.

Where they seem to be falling down is against teams with batsmen who are happy to play the waiting game, like Amla, Smith, Kallis, Azhar Ali, Shafiq, etc. and it becomes a real battle of attrition. Then when they bat it seems that this effects them as their precious game plan has been metaphorically widdled on.

This isn't to say that things can't be turned around at Headingley.

p.s. Broad bowled brilliantly in the UAE, talk of dropping him after one bad Test is reactionary at best.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on July 23, 2012, 03:33:26 PM
Same 11 for me, no knee jerk reactions required.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 23, 2012, 03:40:54 PM

IMO Steyn is nowhere near a considerable amount better than Anderson, if at all better...

Ohh really? Steyn bowled poorly on Day 1 then bounced back and was very good for the rest of the test, Jimmy got a good start at the end of day 2, bowled poorly on day 3 and didn't bounce back on day 4. The additional pace that Steyn has means he is still a threat even when there is limited swing and seam movement.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 23, 2012, 03:43:48 PM
1 bad test and 1 good test for world class bowlers doesn't make a difference

if Steyn has a bad 2nd test and jimmy does great it doesn't mean jimmy is better than steyn

my point was they are both world class and wouldn't want to choose between them
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 23, 2012, 03:55:27 PM
Where they seem to be falling down is against teams with batsmen who are happy to play the waiting game, like Amla, Smith, Kallis, Azhar Ali, Shafiq, etc. and it becomes a real battle of attrition. Then when they bat it seems that this effects them as their precious game plan has been metaphorically widdled on.


I think what was telling was the discussion that Athers had with Strauss on Saturday, when he said that he (and flower) sets fields to bore out batsmen who like to play their strokes so they will play a false stroke. Well the South African batsmen don't get bored, so setting fields like that makes it very hard to get them out and they simply accumulate runs. The alternate view is that that approach works pretty well against England...!

I certainly think tactics need reviewing and I don't think that we bowled or batted particularly well.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 23, 2012, 05:24:06 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 23, 2012, 06:37:30 PM
Some facts.

World #1 England has lost five tests so far in 2012.

Given that there are two more tests here against the Yarpies and some more in India to follow, it is concievable that England will have lost more tests than it won in 2012.

For all the hero worship enjoyed by Anderson and Broad, they both have averages compareable to "he bowls them to the left, he bowls them to the right" who will never play another test again for Australia (barring 6 injuries).

Someone here is comparing Anderson to the great Dale Steyn??? Please, spare me the delusions.

Bopara will never make it as a test batsman. His technique is very sloppy. Short forms only.

Swann is a non threatening spinner who has done three fifths of f#@k all against quality opposition.

Having said all that, if England bring back Finn and Tremlett (when fit), they have considerably more fire power from two excellent pace bowlers. If England drop Bresnan, they are insane. A whole hearted cricketer that any captain would love to have in the team to throw the ball to.

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: LEACHY48 on July 23, 2012, 06:53:59 PM
so Swan is ranked up there in the top 3 spinners in the world and can bowl like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0N4VL7MYqo     and      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGWOvWMDDc  and while Pakistan may not be what you consider 'quality' Australia definitely are, especially Ponting, who will probably go down in history as one of the greatest batsmen, while I agree on not dropping Bresnan and bringing in Finn and Tremlet, dropping Anderson, who, if you asked 500 people who the greatest English bowler of the last decade, they would probably all say, Anderson. To be perfectly honest, yes there is work to do, the selection I feel is almost perfect, I mean you look at pound for pound, the amount of talent in the teams is almost exactly equal, for example, Cook and Smith, Trott and Amla, Bell and Devilliers, at the end of the day it cam down to who wanted it more, and that was SA....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: TommO on July 23, 2012, 07:06:52 PM
I'm not saying broad is a bad player and should be dropped. But his lack of pace is a concern, bowling 80 mph compared to 85+ regularly last year.

Where's the fire power?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ppccopener on July 23, 2012, 07:07:28 PM
Interesting post vic.im a diehard england fan, that is ive been abroad to support our great team,only back then we were rubbish.lost 3-1 in australia and after we lost in 100 degree heat we went on the lash in melbourne got drunk under the table by some aussie girls and my life was saved in the gents toilets after i passed out after 10 straight vb,s.the same girls slapped the life out of me until i came round.
England are number 1 on the same basis every other team is 2 or 3 or 4. Your 100 per cent right on bres and also right we have to win in india to be genuinely the worlds best team.but right now SA have deserved their win and we are in a dogfight.england will come back strong.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on July 23, 2012, 08:32:43 PM
South Africa are quality... end of! Are they consistently an innings win better than england, perhaps not, but I agree with the sentiments about suffocating the batters until they do something silly and none of the SA top 4 will do anything but bat, bat and bat all day! While England play their shots and seem to struggle with a plan B. Changes to the gameplan... certainly, changes to the personnel.... there's a reason we're number one, and we deserve it too!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 23, 2012, 09:16:38 PM
Guys I think some of you are being a little harsh on your team.. England did not get to number 1 by playing rubbish cricket and have been one of the best teams for a while now.

While we all agree they looked like school boys this past 5 days they are a quality outfit I just feel that they seem to be running out of gas a little. They have prob played twice the amount of tests SA have in the last two years.

You have to remember what goes up must come down..

I'm sure the next test will be a much closer affair.. Until then I will enjoy ripping everybody... :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 06:10:53 AM
so Swan is ranked up there in the top 3 spinners in the world and can bowl like this: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0N4VL7MYqo [/url]    and      [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGWOvWMDDc [/url] and while Pakistan may not be what you consider 'quality' Australia definitely are, especially Ponting, who will probably go down in history as one of the greatest batsmen, while I agree on not dropping Bresnan and bringing in Finn and Tremlet, dropping Anderson, who, if you asked 500 people who the greatest English bowler of the last decade, they would probably all say, Anderson. To be perfectly honest, yes there is work to do, the selection I feel is almost perfect, I mean you look at pound for pound, the amount of talent in the teams is almost exactly equal, for example, Cook and Smith, Trott and Amla, Bell and Devilliers, at the end of the day it cam down to who wanted it more, and that was SA....



Swan is ranked in the top 3 due to this being an unusually fallow time for spinners.

After ten tests against the worst Australian team in living memory, Swan has an average of 40.00. That is worse than ordinary my friends.

If English supporters think Anderson is the best English bowler in the last decade - then mediocrity certainly rules the game.

To head off your next question as to who is the best English bowler of the last ten years, I say unhesitatingly Simon Jones.

Jones was almost in the Steyn class before he got injured. We are talking about a guy who could violently reverse swing it through the air at 90mph. Jones bamboozled a full strength Australian line up of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, Clarke and Katich...throw in Gilchrist for good measure.

Anderson in the 2006/07 and 2009 Ashes was worse than useless. He then cashed in against the worst Australian line up in decades to get 25 wickets in the 2010/11 Ashes.

For mine, Simon Jones was brilliant until the curse of injury finished him.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 06:16:36 AM
Interesting post vic.im a diehard england fan, that is ive been abroad to support our great team,only back then we were rubbish.lost 3-1 in australia and after we lost in 100 degree heat we went on the lash in melbourne got drunk under the table by some aussie girls and my life was saved in the gents toilets after i passed out after 10 straight vb,s.the same girls slapped the life out of me until i came round.
England are number 1 on the same basis every other team is 2 or 3 or 4. Your 100 per cent right on bres and also right we have to win in india to be genuinely the worlds best team.but right now SA have deserved their win and we are in a dogfight.england will come back strong.

Give the man a medal!

Ten straight VB's is no big deal unto itself (Booney downed 50 on a long haul flight to Heathrow)...but by the sounds of it, you downed your ten pretty damn quickly! Kind of like T20 drinking!

Losing in India does not disqualify a team of #1 per se...it just may be that England may have lost 7 or 8 tests for the year by the time that happens...and that is not the performance of a #1.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 24, 2012, 06:18:11 AM
The best English bowling attack of the last decade was that which won the Ashes in 2005.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 06:31:49 AM
The best English bowling attack of the last decade was that which won the Ashes in 2005.

Absolutely.

To think otherwise is not taking into account the quality of opposition.

To topple a full strength Aussie line up was a MASSIVE achievement.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 24, 2012, 06:42:41 AM
The best English bowling attack of the last decade was that which won the Ashes in 2005.

That was the best pace attack we have ever had, no way could you say Ashley Giles is anywhere near the best spinner we have had. I think even Kevin Pietersen is a better spinner than Giles was..

Vic, saying Anderson is average is the perfect example of someone who spends too much time looking at stats and not enough time watching cricket. His high average is due to the way he was handled at the start of his career(when he was rushed in to the team due to Jones' injury) however these last few years he has been very good and one of the main reasons why England got to number 1. I'm not saying he is as good as Steyn or Jones however he is crtainly far better than "Mediocre"..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 24, 2012, 06:56:28 AM
That was the best pace attack we have ever had, no way could you say Ashley Giles is anywhere near the best spinner we have had. I think even Kevin Pietersen is a better spinner than Giles was..

Vic, saying Anderson is average is the perfect example of someone who spends too much time looking at stats and not enough time watching cricket. His high average is due to the way he was handled at the start of his career(when he was rushed in to the team due to Jones' injury) however these last few years he has been very good and one of the main reasons why England got to number 1. I'm not saying he is as good as Steyn or Jones however he is crtainly far better than "Mediocre"..
We've had this discussion before - I think it was prior to or round about the last Ashes series....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on July 24, 2012, 07:23:51 AM
The notion that Anderson is a mediocre bowler is borderline delusional
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 08:25:22 AM
The notion that Anderson is a mediocre bowler is borderline delusional

Anderson can join Flintoff and Harmison as English bowling legends - all with + 30 bowling averages.

Anderson WILL retire with a bowling average the wrong side of 30.

Ditto Swan and Broad.

Steven Finn and Tremlett are the best of your bowlers with Bresnan not far behind them.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 24, 2012, 08:27:37 AM
This Anderson bashing looks desperate to say the least! So, he had a bad game? So what? He's allowed one or two occasionally and seeing as how, these days, it is very occasionally I think we just have to accept it! His average over the last 2/3 seasons has actually been the equal of Steyn's if memory serves me correctly...

I think people are forgetting the conditions this test was played under. England batted on the first day, scored 280 something for 3 and never looked in trouble. They come back the next day to black cloud, floodlights on and the ball going sideways and get rolled out. SA bat, Pietersen gets done by an inswinger from Jimmy A. Sun comes out, ball stops moving, stays like that, SA score 600 odd.

Pressure is then on England, we bat poorly and it's all over.

Things could have been very different with the toss of a coin...Smith said he'd of batted as well. Would a reversal of this result make Steyn overrated? Philander? Morkel? Tahir? No, thought not..... ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 24, 2012, 08:40:44 AM
Vic, I agree Tremlett is a massive miss.
I also think that there are mitigating factors to Anderson's average being over 30, but I don't think that anyone really thinks that he is great - he is very skilled, very professional and very driven to be the best he can.

No one thinks Harmison is a legend and personally I think Flintoff had 18 months as an inspirational cricketer who found himself in a run off form and ran with it.

This is the difference, England's skilled worthy cricketers have used discipline to get where they are. It's just that the South Africans are the most disciplined, boring team in the world and always will be.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 24, 2012, 08:44:06 AM
Anderson can join Flintoff and Harmison as English bowling legends - all with + 30 bowling averages.

Anderson WILL retire with a bowling average the wrong side of 30.

Ditto Swan and Broad.

Steven Finn and Tremlett are the best of your bowlers with Bresnan not far behind them.

You really need to stop judging the quality of a player purely by their average, stats don't tell everything. Harmison would put the batsmen on the backfoot with the bounce he got which meant although he was expensive, it softened them up for the likes of Jones and Hoggard to take wickets. Flintoff had the effect of encouraging the crowd and the team, without him they almost certainly wouldn't have won the 2005 Ashes.

Anderson doesn't have the brute pace of the likes of Steyn but he can trouble the batsman and has done this regularly to some of the best in the world over the last few years. Also seeing as how you love your stats so much, he averaged 22.96 in 2010, 24.85 in 2011 and 28.67 in 2012 which aren't the stats of a "mediocre" bowler..

Did you watch Finn against the West Indies? He struggled against an average at best West Indian batting line-up and his stats are boosted by getting tons of wickets against Bangladesh and Pakistan when they both toured England, against the worst Australian team in living memory he only averaged 33..

Tremlett on the other hand is a good bowler however due to injury he has hardly played any First Class cricket for Surrey so he is almost certainly ruled out of selection.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 24, 2012, 08:48:46 AM
It's obvious that vic enjoys trying to wind the the Brits up!! Cos if he had the slightest notion of what he was talking about, he'd know the stats already!

Anyway, onto more important things! Amla.....how class did he look! He is one of my favourite batsman to watch!!
And heaven knows we have had enough time to watch him bat this week!  ;)

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 24, 2012, 08:50:53 AM
It's obvious that vic enjoys trying to wind the the Brits up!! Cos if he had the slightest notion of what he was talking about, he'd know the stats already!

Anyway, onto more important things! Amla.....how class did he look! He is one of my favourite batsman to watch!!
And heaven knows we have had enough time to watch him bat this week!  ;)

Amla is an A class tradesman
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 24, 2012, 08:54:14 AM
Yep - the guy just keeps getting better and better!!!
I prefer to watch him against other teams though  ;)

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 24, 2012, 09:15:38 AM
Hope he is injured against Australia  :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 24, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
I hope he's injured for the rest of the tests against England!  ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 09:55:59 AM
The A team - Anderson - class act - the number of times that he bowls superbly but doesn't enjoy the luck that all sportsmen need seems to pass under most folk's radar.

Amla - arguably the best no. 3 bat in the World - and it's the position where you probably want your best bat technique and temperament wise.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 10:42:25 AM
It's obvious that vic enjoys trying to wind the the Brits up!! Cos if he had the slightest notion of what he was talking about, he'd know the stats already!

Anyway, onto more important things! Amla.....how class did he look! He is one of my favourite batsman to watch!!
And heaven knows we have had enough time to watch him bat this week!  ;)

No, I am deadly serious Hosk.

Mitchell Johnson was shithouse for fully the last 2 years of his test career, yet he has a compareable average to Anderson and better than Broads.

I am not making excuses for MJ and I will not make excuses for Brett Lee who also finished his test career with a 30+ bowling average.

In Australia we call these players what they are - mediocre.

In England if you finish up with a test bowling average around 30 you are annointed an all time great and punters make excuses that you "soften batsmen up for others", "excite the crowd", or the one that I keep hearing for Flintoff and now Anderson "they always bowl without any luck".

All these platitudes scream out "mediocre career".

Both Siddle and Hilfenhaus have averages circa 28...but I would never call them anything other than serviceable. Just honest toilers really.

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on July 24, 2012, 10:49:51 AM
Vic have you been in the pub?

Comparing Mitchell Johnson to Jimmy Anderson is utterly outrageous, Johnson bowled with out control and completely erratic, he, was a terrible test bowler, not just mediocre.

People do bowl without luck, if you personally bowl 6 jaffas in an over, and 3 of them find the edge and get through slips for 4, would you not feel hard done to and think you've had no luck?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 10:51:57 AM
Mike Hendrick was way better than Anderson and Broad...better than Botham too, I might add, but is largely forgotten these days because he flew under the radar.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/14159.html

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 10:54:07 AM
Vic have you been in the pub?

Comparing Mitchell Johnson to Jimmy Anderson is utterly outrageous, Johnson bowled with out control and completely erratic, he, was a terrible test bowler, not just mediocre.

People do bowl without luck, if you personally bowl 6 jaffas in an over, and 3 of them find the edge and get through slips for 4, would you not feel hard done to and think you've had no luck?

Mate, I wasn't comparing him favourably to Anderson.

I am just making the obvious elephant-in-the-room observation that MJ has a similar average to Anderson and a better average than Broad.

That is FACT.

Mitchell Johnson will never play another test for Australia, where Anderson is lauded as an all time great.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 24, 2012, 10:56:06 AM
Mike Hendrick was way better than Anderson and Broad...better than Botham too, I might add, but is largely forgotten these days because he flew under the radar.

[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/14159.html[/url]


So was Syd Barnes but how far do we want to go back

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/8996.html
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: johnnyw on July 24, 2012, 10:58:08 AM
You cannot compare players of 2012 to players from pre-1990's

The game has changed big time with pitches, helmets, bats, technology etc. A modern day players average will be a lot higher than that of a player from the 80's for example.

And you should also take strike rate into consideration when judging a player, not just his average
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 24, 2012, 10:59:21 AM
Typical Aussie unable to count, Broad's average of 31.16 is lower than Johnson average at 31.29..

You were praising the 2005 England bowling line-up yet you call Harmison and Flintoff(The highest England wicket taker of the 2005 series) mediocre.. Nobody is saying that Harmison, Flintoff or Anderson are all time greats, but on their day they all can compete with the best bowlers in the world.

For a long while Australia have had some utterly brilliant bowlers like McGrath and Warne so I guess we have different expectations from bowlers but I would advise you to watch some footage of Anderson tearing teams apart in the last few years then come on here and call him mediocre..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 24, 2012, 11:00:44 AM
Mate, I wasn't comparing him favourably to Anderson.

I am just making the obvious elephant-in-the-room observation that MJ has a similar average to Anderson and a better average than Broad.

That is FACT.

Mitchell Johnson will never play another test for Australia, where Anderson is lauded as an all time great.

That is not a FACT, his average is higher than Broads and you are being a fool, now that is a FACT.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:12:06 AM
That is not a FACT, his average is higher than Broads and you are being a fool, now that is a FACT.

For how much longer?

One more test?

MJ had an average in the high 20's until the last Ashes.

Infact, he still had an average in the high 20's up until the Melbourne test in that series - but it went to crap from there on.

He will never play for Australia again.

Anderson and Broad despite their mediocrity are being classified as all time greats - but will be largely forgotten in 20 years time by everyone other than Englishman.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 11:19:08 AM
I think Hendo was an excellent bowler for England and very underrated. However, though perhaps no yardstick of consistent performance, I'm not sure if he got any fivfers at test level, which some might see as a problem.
I think it also comes down to who you have bowling alongside you. Inevitably batsmen will have to take some of the bowlers on, and it can lead to wickets falling to what you might not term the main strike bowlers. Ridiculous as it might seem, the great Joel Garner might not be rated as the main spearhead of the Windies attack back then. Other attributes (of which there were many) apart, his pace was maybe a bit below the others (though still very sharp) - so maybe the batsmen had to try to take a few more liberties with him than was wise?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:20:25 AM
Anderson has never looked this dangerous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9hcZWVb7PI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiKpKppiKQo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-aN8-21Mpc

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on July 24, 2012, 11:21:25 AM
This is a thread about the battle for No.1 test team in the world, why are we talking about Australia?

Could anyone manage to find a stat that would show Broad's, Anderson's and Mark Johnson's (think thats what he was called) average over the last two years? I'm sure Broad had 54 wickets @ 18 or something.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:26:05 AM
I think Hendo was an excellent bowler for England and very underrated. However, though perhaps no yardstick of consistent performance, I'm not sure if he got any fivfers at test level, which some might see as a problem.
I think it also comes down to who you have bowling alongside you. Inevitably batsmen will have to take some of the bowlers on, and it can lead to wickets falling to what you might not term the main strike bowlers. Ridiculous as it might seem, the great Joel Garner might not be rated as the main spearhead of the Windies attack back then. Other attributes (of which there were many) apart, his pace was maybe a bit below the others (though still very sharp) - so maybe the batsmen had to try to take a few more liberties with him than was wise?

Garner wasn't as fast as the other Windies quicks, but because of his 6'8" height and albatross arms he delivered the ball from the most awkward height imagineable.

He was devilishly hard to score off according to the likes of Allan Border and other retired test players.

Hendrick never took a five for, although he took four fers many times. He was simply unlucky in that he was never really a favourite of the selectors.

In teh summer of 1978, Pakistan sent a team minus all their Packer stars to England and then New Zealand toured after them...two extremely weak teams and this is where Botham made his reputation with centuries and 8 fors in successive test matches...even Chris Old took 4 wickets in 5 balls against the hapless Pakis. The story was the same against NZ.

If Hendrick was selected. he would have cleaned up. In that winters Ashes series in Australia, he took more wickets thank Botham and Old combined to finish the leading English paceman of the tour. The man could seriously bowl.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:30:24 AM
This is a thread about the battle for No.1 test team in the world, why are we talking about Australia?

Could anyone manage to find a stat that would show Broad's, Anderson's and Mark Johnson's (think thats what he was called) average over the last two years? I'm sure Broad had 54 wickets @ 18 or something.

Against who?

Banglas? Pakis in England? The hapless Indian batsmen?

I do not expect that stat to last.

Anderson and Broad were exposed by the Saffers.

To attempt to denigrate the South African batsmen as "boring" is a bit rich coming from Poms who gave the world Boycott, Tavare, Hutton, Bailey and now the imported Trott.

You were weighed, measured and found wanting.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 11:31:17 AM
He came from Darley Dale too! The home of seam, they used to call Derbyshire - Cliff Gladwin and Les Jackson come to mind.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on July 24, 2012, 11:31:50 AM
Another bitter Aussie finding something to moan about because they can't stand us being number 1 :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 11:33:11 AM
Vic, I'll settle for 600-odd for 2 boring any old day! :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:34:26 AM
Another bitter Aussie finding something to moan about because they can't stand us being number 1 :D

You will lose to South Africa.

Then you will lose in India.

That will be circa 7 to 8 losses for teh year of 2012.

Kiss number one goodbye while you can - because your "20 year reign of dominance" (the popular consensus in here 7 or 8 months ago) will have ended a year after it started.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:36:44 AM
We've had this discussion before - I think it was prior to or round about the last Ashes series....

I joined this forum February 2011 - after the most recent Ashes.

So it does not lend any credence to your assertion.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 11:39:09 AM
Vic, I'll settle for 600-odd for 2 boring any old day! :D

The South Africans batted professionally and stuck to the script - something the England team did themselves last Ashes.

You cannot ask for much more than that.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on July 24, 2012, 11:44:50 AM
Another bitter Aussie finding something to moan about because they can't stand us being number 1 :D

After this loss to SA, England and SA are on equal first in the rankings and if SA win 3-0 England will be in 3rd
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on July 24, 2012, 11:52:28 AM
You will lose to South Africa.

Then you will lose in India.

That will be circa 7 to 8 losses for teh year of 2012.

Kiss number one goodbye while you can - because your "20 year reign of dominance" (the popular consensus in here 7 or 8 months ago) will have ended a year after it started.

Blah Blah Blah, just can't stand England having success
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on July 24, 2012, 11:54:55 AM
Blah Blah Blah, just can't stand England having success
THIS.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on July 24, 2012, 11:57:20 AM
Blah Blah Blah, just can't stand England having success

We used to be the one clutching at straws, we've just passed the baton on. SA will deserve No.1 if they beat us on our home patch which is where we are the strongest. Something not many have done in recent years. This crushing defeat should galvanise us knowing Flowers standards.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 24, 2012, 11:58:17 AM
Against who?

Banglas? Pakis in England? The hapless Indian batsmen?

I do not expect that stat to last.

Anderson and Broad were exposed by the Saffers.

To attempt to denigrate the South African batsmen as "boring" is a bit rich coming from Poms who gave the world Boycott, Tavare, Hutton, Bailey and now the imported Trott.

You were weighed, measured and found wanting.


Vic this who against, since our 5 -0 drubbing by Australia in 06/07 England have played 20 Test series winning 12, Drawing 2 and losing 6, if you want to go on more recent form then in the last 2 years they have only lost once to Pakistan.

As you seem so keen on them here are the stats;

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/england/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=1;type=team
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
Keep clutching at straws lads.

In 2010 we lost three tests for the whole year before the Ashes, but we all knewacross the nation we were going to get a belting...and it so it proved. Just alot worse than we could have imagined.

So far in 2012 England have lost five tests out of eight.

Given that you have to travel to India where they play like supermen, I can see this getting worse before you play NZ.

A #1 team does not lose 7-8 tests in a year as you guys are about to do.

Even in our cricket crisis of 2010/11 which caused the biggest shake up in Australian Cricket in 30 years, we never lost that many tests.

Rome is burning all around you, yet all you guys on here a playing the fiddle.

All the vital signs are pointing in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on July 24, 2012, 12:03:40 PM
Vic - did a Pom give you an absolute slapping or bully you in the past?
I'm wonderig as you are showing so much bitterness that it's really showing through?  ???
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 24, 2012, 12:04:48 PM
Vic are you Nostradamus resurrected?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 24, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
I joined this forum February 2011 - after the most recent Ashes.

So it does not lend any credence to your assertion.
To be honest Vic, I couldn't be bothered to go back and search, but on the basis of your comment, it was during the discussion about India v Australia and then later England in Sri Lanka, so my assertion is correct.

This is the same discussion covering the same ground with both sides making more or less the same points with a few extra games in place and we seem to be no further on!

Simply my timing that was out.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Vic this who against, since our 5 -0 drubbing by Australia in 06/07 England have played 20 Test series winning 12, Drawing 2 and losing 6, if you want to go on more recent form then in the last 2 years they have only lost once to Pakistan.

As you seem so keen on them here are the stats;

[url]http://stats.espncricinfo.com/england/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=1;type=team[/url]


Can you do one for Australia over that same period.

I can remember losing series to SA, England x 2, India x 2 (both in India)...and that is all I can remember (unless someone can remember another lost series that I can't).

5 lost series.

We drew with SA and with NZ last spring and with Pakistan in England in 2010 (which caused all the hand wringing before the Ashes)

The rest have been won.

This has been our worst period in our test history with full strength teams, yet the record is not THAT bad.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 12:16:55 PM
To be honest Vic, I couldn't be bothered to go back and search, but on the basis of your comment, it was during the discussion about India v Australia and then later England in Sri Lanka, so my assertion is correct.

This is the same discussion covering the same ground with both sides making more or less the same points with a few extra games in place and we seem to be no further on!

Simply my timing that was out.

Oh, now I remember...those were the threads that predicted that Sri Lanka would crush Australia 3-0 in SL and that India would sweep to a 4-0 on Australian soil...yes, yes, how could I forget such Aussie baiting by jealous Englishmen...some of whom have fled the forum since then.

How remiss of me to forget all the taunts I copped from vengeful Englishmen on this forum???

Yet we won both series - comfortably.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on July 24, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
I also found this from one of those threads:

Watching what has been some very exciting Test cricket over the lasst few months it has become apparent that there are a lot of very average Test teams around the world at the moment and one very good one.  Most of the top tier of Test teams have some gaping holes in their line ups.

Australia: Promising bowling attack, but an inexperienced top order, and players that routinely struggle against the moving ball.  A wicketkeeper who is a liability.

India: An ageing batting line up with an opener (Gambhir) who looks all at sea, and a bowling attack that lacks firepower

South Africa: Lacking an opening batsman and a decent no. 6.  Wicketkeeper is finished as a Test batsman.

Sri Lanka: Bowling attack missing the stars of Murali, Malinga and Vaas, and a captain who barely deserves a place in the batting order

Pakistan: Promising side but hurt by the fact that they can't play at home at the moment, and a batting line up that lacks inspiration

England: The only hole in the side would appear to be at no. 6 but there are a host of top quality young batsmen waiting to fill the spot.  Top 5 batters are world class, and the best keeper/batsman in world cricket (now Sangakkara doesn't keep anymore).  Best spinner in the world, and a conveyor belt of excellent seam bowlers who can bowl well in all conditions in Test cricket.

Anyone might say that the South Africa assessment was spot on, although the English one looks a little optimistic ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 12:32:00 PM
Vic - did a Pom give you an absolute slapping or bully you in the past?
I'm wonderig as you are showing so much bitterness that it's really showing through?  ???

Just on here Pete, just on here.

In fact, nearly a third of my cricket club consists of expat Englishmen and we also get 3-4 young English lads who come over each summer to play for us.

All champion blokes who are much loved at our club.

My wife and I were in England at the end of May...which is the third time for both of us. My wife even lived for a little while in Northampton when she was 13 years old.

Both of us would love to one day buy a country house in the Home Counties so we can spend three - four months a year in England as we love it there.

So, no, I cannot say I have any personal beef with any Englishmen.

I think it centres on the roasting I got on here a year ago when I had the temerity to suggest that Australia would not remain #5 in the world for long (like we were at that stage) and we certainly were not going into some kind of a West Indies death loop.

I was mocked, lampooned and criticised.

I was told in no uncertain terms that Australia was in a West Indies style recession that would take 20 years to recover from...and that England would remain #1 for decades.

Yet Australia a year later is #2 in the world and this summers test series between South Africa and Australia will be a battle between #1 SA and #2 Australia.

Despite all the (No Swearing Please) I have copped on here and continue to cop, I have proven to be remarkably prescient.

I apologize to all the fair minded English fans I have offended, for this was never my intention.

For the rest of you, karma will deal with you.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 24, 2012, 12:33:07 PM
I like your posts Vic.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 12:38:07 PM
I like your posts Vic.

Thanks mate.

I am the first to admit that I have behaved like an internet warrior here as those that know me in the transvision world would attest that I am not so forthright with my opinions on cricket and I certainly would never bait anybody.

I DO enjoy reading posts on this forum and I apologize for upsetting the equilibrium.

Let's face it, on a forum that is 95% English, I am not going to get a whole lotta love for my contrary views! :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 24, 2012, 12:42:50 PM
My personal opinion is that England will probably (as much at it kills me to say it!) loose this series

I think the difference is that SA will have the Australian problem of loosing world class players at the same time (in Graeme Smith and Jaques Kallis) which we sevearly deplete their batting line up

The good thing about England is that they have quite a young side which has still many many years ahead of them


It wouldn't surpise me at all that in 5 year time the top 4 teams will be

England
Australia
West Indies
Pakistan

The above are not in any order

The teams mentioned just seem to have the most youthful talent in the world

However... I hope England do prove me wrong in this series!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 12:46:50 PM
TBH Vic you took some of the words out of my mouth. There is no such thing as a dynasty in any sport. Players age - some are impossible to replace like for like (Warne?) so you have to enjoy the good times when you can. It's the same in football. Ferguson criticised for not replacing Roy Keane - but with who? The best you can hope for is a decent infrastructure, which Australia appear to have, the Windies obviously not. I think England have learned from Australia in this, which is why they are usually tough to beat these days. The heartening aspect of England in recent years is that like Aus teams for as long as I can remember, just when you think you have them on the ropes they are capable of proving otherwise.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 24, 2012, 01:09:57 PM
Vic I take your point, but I think the way some of your posts are worded cause other members on here to bite, as they come across as Pommy bashing (and let's face it we've taken a fair amount of that over the last 25 years)!

So while some of your points are quite valid, there are others that seem to be aimed at just making us English bite.  TBH I have never expected Australia to stay down and out of it for long, it's not in your national physche in any sport, I wrote during your India series that explains my thoughts below

http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=13565.msg265528#msg265528
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 24, 2012, 01:32:20 PM
It wouldn't surpise me at all that in 5 year time the top 4 teams will be

England
Australia
West Indies
Pakistan


South Africa have some gifted young bats coming through, and years left in their bowling attack too.  Granted replacing Kallis would be nigh on impossible, flawless technique like that is so rare.  The likes of Miller, Levi could step up from limited overs cricket, and there are some quality young bats coming through like Rossouw and the Smuts brothers.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 24, 2012, 01:33:46 PM
I do hope the Smuts make it - think of the headlines!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 01:38:28 PM
TBH Vic you took some of the words out of my mouth. There is no such thing as a dynasty in any sport. Players age - some are impossible to replace like for like (Warne?) so you have to enjoy the good times when you can. It's the same in football. Ferguson criticised for not replacing Roy Keane - but with who? The best you can hope for is a decent infrastructure, which Australia appear to have, the Windies obviously not. I think England have learned from Australia in this, which is why they are usually tough to beat these days. The heartening aspect of England in recent years is that like Aus teams for as long as I can remember, just when you think you have them on the ropes they are capable of proving otherwise.

It is harder than ever in cricket to maintain a lengthy period of dominance.

The West Indian and Australian eras both had a lot of luck in that some unbelievable players all came along at once and were then replenished by others, even towards the end (Lara/Hussey) to keep the dominance going for a little longer.

The only thing the 1993 Ashes winning team and the 2006/7 team had in common was Shane Warne. No one else.

If you step back to the 1989 and 1991/92 teams, there was no one in common with 2006/07 at all.

Unless something drastic happens to upset the balance, I can see that the next five years are going to be fairly even with no team holding sway for any length of time.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
South Africa have some gifted young bats coming through, and years left in their bowling attack too.  Granted replacing Kallis would be nigh on impossible, flawless technique like that is so rare.  The likes of Miller, Levi could step up from limited overs cricket, and there are some quality young bats coming through like Rossouw and the Smuts brothers.

Throw in Marchant De Lange who will be a monster pacemen.

SA are genetically predisposed to producing good cricketers - it is in their DNA.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tumo on July 24, 2012, 01:44:21 PM
South Africa have some gifted young bats coming through, and years left in their bowling attack too.  Granted replacing Kallis would be nigh on impossible, flawless technique like that is so rare.  The likes of Miller, Levi could step up from limited overs cricket, and there are some quality young bats coming through like Rossouw and the Smuts brothers.
And the rest, Quinton de Kock, Dean Elgar, Faf du Plessis, Stiaan Van Zyl, Reeza Hendricks to name a few decent bats!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 01:51:31 PM
And the rest, Quinton de Kock, Dean Elgar, Faf du Plessis, Stiaan Van Zyl, Reeza Hendricks to name a few decent bats!

Fleet Street will go into meltdown if Smuts and De Kock put on a big stand!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 24, 2012, 02:11:48 PM
Fleet Street will go into meltdown if Smuts and De Kock put on a big stand!

Also, if ever there was a South African who should be playing for England, it is one named Elgar.

Smith is only 31 as well remember, some good years left in him.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 24, 2012, 02:12:52 PM
Must confess to not knowing much about SA doemstic cricket so seems like it could be SA dominating for quite a few years to come

As an English fan even we are 2nd best (which i think we can still compete with SA), its much better than where we have been for the last 20 years you would think!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Sam to the C on July 24, 2012, 02:13:49 PM
As a die hard cricket fan and a passionate Australian spporter I do get frustrated with comments coming from frustrated Australians clinging to once dominance, when truth be told we've got the worst stocks and team on par with say, th English Team of the 90s, we need new effetive players in all honesty.
As a cricket fan I do think the English teamis hyped up a lot, there is truth when saying Broad is rubbish, Finn who is taller and faster could play and intimadory role much better, sand frankly looking at Bresnan you can see the smart variotions he puts ona ball. Simply when you look at a bowlers you can tell how effrective and how serious a threat they are, sort of how i feel about HILFY likewise. However bashing comments about Anderson are unwarranted, you don't need averages to look at a bowler and say "WOW, the batsmen are in trouble here". I think he was av eraging 40 at one stage, anyone who knows how averages work will know it's going to take a long time for them to gradually go down.
All said and done, this English teamis Organised, do they have talent? Yes, but truth be told they have many weaknesses, mainly for me, both Styruass and Cooks problem of driving the full ball, they're not particualrly strong drivers, more of the cutting or pulling type, other than that the rest of the batsmens problems, Pietersen especially are lacking temprement and that's all, coupled with Swann and Bresnan wit the bat they're a formidable prospect, not to mention Anderson being a thorn to remove :P
Are they the best side in the past 3 years? Well they're pretty close, and this series should answer this, so sit back and enjoy, there's no doubt England will put up a fight in the nex test, intresting to see if they stick with Bopara who could do with how the Australian selectors have approached young, very capable batsmen, communication and faith :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 03:29:49 PM
As a die hard cricket fan and a passionate Australian spporter I do get frustrated with comments coming from frustrated Australians clinging to once dominance, when truth be told we've got the worst stocks and team on par with say, th English Team of the 90s, we need new effetive players in all honesty.
As a cricket fan I do think the English teamis hyped up a lot, there is truth when saying Broad is rubbish, Finn who is taller and faster could play and intimadory role much better, sand frankly looking at Bresnan you can see the smart variotions he puts ona ball. Simply when you look at a bowlers you can tell how effrective and how serious a threat they are, sort of how i feel about HILFY likewise. However bashing comments about Anderson are unwarranted, you don't need averages to look at a bowler and say "WOW, the batsmen are in trouble here". I think he was av eraging 40 at one stage, anyone who knows how averages work will know it's going to take a long time for them to gradually go down.
All said and done, this English teamis Organised, do they have talent? Yes, but truth be told they have many weaknesses, mainly for me, both Styruass and Cooks problem of driving the full ball, they're not particualrly strong drivers, more of the cutting or pulling type, other than that the rest of the batsmens problems, Pietersen especially are lacking temprement and that's all, coupled with Swann and Bresnan wit the bat they're a formidable prospect, not to mention Anderson being a thorn to remove :P
Are they the best side in the past 3 years? Well they're pretty close, and this series should answer this, so sit back and enjoy, there's no doubt England will put up a fight in the nex test, intresting to see if they stick with Bopara who could do with how the Australian selectors have approached young, very capable batsmen, communication and faith :)

"On a par to England in the 1990's"

You are kidding me right? Right???

We have risen to #2 in the world.

This time last year we were #5 with most predicting with glee that we would be battling it out with Bangladesh and Windies for the bottom spot for years to come.

After this current series where England will surrender top spot, we will drop to #3 - a more accurate reflection of where we presently stand.

The fact remains that in the 1990's England did not have Pattinson, Cummins, Starc, Hazelwood, Cutting, Coulter-Nile, Lyon, Wade coming through the wings to rebuild with.

It is true that we do not exactly have a stream of promising young star batsmen coming through bashing the door down....but neither do England. They have the benefit of utilizing the ECCB Talent Identification Officers based in Cape Town to top up their batting order as required....if you were to take out Trott and Pietersen...England would be even more vulnerable than they are now.

The South African poster in this thread who mentioned promising young batsmen Levi, Miller, Quinton de Kock, Dean Elgar, Faf du Plessis, Stiaan Van Zyl and Reeza Hendricks knows only too well as indeed the English posters on here do, that at least two of those lads will be approached to play for England when the current England batting order starts retiring or losing form.

That is the English way.

We will find young batsmen to compete with the best, and they will be sons of the Southern Cross...not speaking with the accent of the High Veldt and referring to their newly acquired co nationals as "you people".

Have faith.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 03:34:15 PM
Phew!

That was as jingoistic as I could make it!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 24, 2012, 03:41:59 PM
Phew!

That was as jingoistic as I could make it!


Hahaha, nice to see you don't reserve it just for us Poms!  :D  Although if we were to recruit some of the young SA bats you mentioned they now need to live in England for 7 years, compared to the 4 it has been, so unless any of them are under 18...

http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=17497.msg280598#msg280598
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 24, 2012, 03:42:49 PM
Hahaha!  Although if we were to recruit some of the young SA bats you mentioned they now need to live in England for 7 years, compared to the 4 it has been, so unless any of them are under 17...

[url]http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=17497.msg280598#msg280598[/url]


Seven years???

WOW!

That chamges the whole ball game now.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on July 24, 2012, 03:43:49 PM
Seven years???

WOW!

That chamges the whole ball game now.

I know we'll have to start cradle snatching the blighters now!  :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 24, 2012, 04:09:01 PM
I know we'll have to start cradle snatching the blighters now!  :D :D :D :D :D

Thought we already did that?

I think you always mature as a bowler far earlier than you do as a batsman.  It would be impossible to predict from a bunch of 19 year olds which of them will make it at the top level of cricket.

Vic's kinda right, there's not a great deal to separate any of the top test playing nations.  Australia have a promising attack but need a couple of batsmen to emerge.  I guess ideally you'd want someone in their late 20s with an average of above 40 in first class cricket.  What happened to Pomersbach?  He was touted a couple of years ago.

South Africa seem to produce very good cricketers who can build an innings.  Kallis is an exceptional player though, it will be very difficult to replace him even with all the talented batsmen they have coming through.

England have their own crop, but we seem to be throwing young kids in at the deep end and binning them all too easily.  Got to give them a run of games facing the best bowlers in the world.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 24, 2012, 04:19:35 PM
So long as we don't go back to the bad old days - especially with batsmen - I think England will be ok. I'm sure there will be those who remember the time when players eventually forced their way in through sheer weight of runs, but it seemed as if the selectors were almost willing them to fail so they could get the revolving door going.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on July 24, 2012, 05:27:56 PM
I think you always mature as a bowler far earlier than you do as a batsman.  It would be impossible to predict from a bunch of 19 year olds which of them will make it at the top level of cricket.

crap - I played against Michael Vaughan when we were both 14.  You could tell...

...and my side included three lads who went on to have decent professional careers and Liam Botham!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on July 24, 2012, 05:38:17 PM
Club cricket or rep?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on July 24, 2012, 06:57:34 PM
Vics posts make good reading, some really interesting analysis there and great food for thought.
On a 95% UK forum there is bound to be some biased views and I enjoy Vics opinions of which many I agree with.

After years of mediocrity England have had a good run over the last 2 years and some supporters are being short sighted.
The trick is to keep it going for 7 which is where most teams come unstuck.

I appreciate good cricket and generally support the underdog which is why ive supported England but flippin heck ive enjoyed watching the Saffas over the last 5 days. I do agree that SA will win this series and India will nail England this winter. England have some phenomenal talent in depth but then so do SA and Australia. 2013 will be a very interesting year.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: stevat on July 24, 2012, 07:37:23 PM
crap - I played against Michael Vaughan when we were both 14.  You could tell...

...and my side included three lads who went on to have decent professional careers and Liam Botham!

You see good players sure, we played Michael Gough when he was a lad and he was superb, outstanding. Still, what I mean by that is generally you peak younger as a bowler. Not many quicks last deep into their late thirties.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: arc1983 on July 24, 2012, 07:42:44 PM
ahhhh.... Michael Gough, what a bowler  ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 25, 2012, 10:55:34 AM
Vics posts make good reading, some really interesting analysis there and great food for thought.
On a 95% UK forum there is bound to be some biased views and I enjoy Vics opinions of which many I agree with.

After years of mediocrity England have had a good run over the last 2 years and some supporters are being short sighted.
The trick is to keep it going for 7 which is where most teams come unstuck.

I appreciate good cricket and generally support the underdog which is why ive supported England but flippin heck ive enjoyed watching the Saffas over the last 5 days. I do agree that SA will win this series and India will nail England this winter. England have some phenomenal talent in depth but then so do SA and Australia. 2013 will be a very interesting year.

Ease up on the compliments...I am starting to feel guilty winding you guys up!

Ooops! I have confessed my raison d'etre!

England can (and probably will) stay in the top 2-3 for next six to seven years, because there is at least something coming through in all departments.

Jos Buttler, Taylor, Bairstow all have loads of talent and you would think that at least two out of the three will make it to some degree.

Cook and Sherminator are both still pretty young as well. So a reasonable batting line up looks assured for the short term.

Finn and Broad have many years ahead of them and there are other young pacemen coming through.

All you pretty much need is a capable spinner when Swan chucks it in over the next couple of years and you are very much in the show.

The Saffers will eventually lose Kallis, but the rest of their batsmen still have some years ahead of them. Their pace attack is still relatively young.

Australia has to discover some young batsmen quick - no easy task.

Some promising kids, but we will wait and see how they go before making any big calls.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 25, 2012, 11:06:13 AM
crap - I played against Michael Vaughan when we were both 14.  You could tell...

...and my side included three lads who went on to have decent professional careers and Liam Botham!

When he was picked for England, he had a FC average of around 28...which was totally underwhelming given how good a test batsmen he was.

His series down here circa 2003 was something out of this world for its quality and the strength of the bowling attack it was achieved against.

He won man of the series in a losing side.

Incredible.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on July 25, 2012, 03:43:01 PM
His series down here circa 2003 was something out of this world for its quality and the strength of the bowling attack it was achieved against.

He won man of the series in a losing side.

Incredible.
I watched him score 150 in syndey, it was some of the finest batting I have seen.

back on topic, looking at the Eng Test team's 2012 stats, with the bat, the ball and results - even the most myopic Eng supporter (like me) would struggle to believe we were the no 1 test team.

It will take something truly special to turn this around - and if that happens then fine, otherwise SA deserve the plaudits. I realy do think Strauss has to up his game as skipper and recognise, as I think has been mentioned above, just bowling the corridor for hour upon hour at Jacques Kallis will only bring you heart ache, you need to push him out of his comfort zone. For that, you may need Finn and Broad - which means Bresnan gets left out. Teams have to make tough calls.

however the batting is the biggest weakness - that has missfired consistently for some time now. My call is to move the deck chairs a little. Have Bell at 3 and move trott and KP down one. On the first day of the last test we missed a trick not batting more positively when the pitch and the SA bowling was flat, having Trott and Cook grind it out cost us real momentum. Bell is technically good enough and can play the new ball so should be given the chance.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: trypewriter on July 25, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
Agreed. I think Boycs' 'corridor of uncertainty' is the corridor of certainty for the SA batsmen - they are brilliant 'leavers' of anything they absolutely don't have to play, which is maybe a very underrated talent.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: LEACHY48 on July 25, 2012, 04:35:42 PM
i think buzz is completely right about bell going to 3, possibly the best batsman in the team
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on July 25, 2012, 05:12:34 PM
Broad and Bresnan can both bowl decent bouncers yet despite bowling in the corridor not working they continued to do it rather than try and put the batsmen on the backfoot, it's when you're facing batsmen like Kallis, Smith and Amla that you really wish Tremlett hadn't got injured. He is basically a more consistent version of Harmison, he has the height and pace to put the batsmen on the back foot but doesn't bowl pointless wides to release the pressure like Harmison did.

For so long we have been used to bowling teams out relatively quickly so you only need 3 front line fast bowlers, however against a team that can bat out a day or two very comfortably you need 4 to keep them all fresh as you could see them struggling towards the end of the SA innings, plus it gives you abit of variation so the batsmen don't get used to the bowling too much. I would say Ravi out, bring Finn or Tremlett in and move Prior up to 6.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 25, 2012, 08:30:29 PM
Do you guys not think your being a little harsh on your team... It seems most folk on here are news paper editors. As soon as things get tough most folk are calling for heads to roll. :o

I feel the years of dominance in world cricket are over (ie the golden days of Aussie >:() and I firmly believe that England are slowly coming to the end of the purple run of form. You lot have been a fantastic team for a few years but you cant win forever and as said already if you look at the last years results you guys have not really performed like a number 1 team in the world... I think after this series its time to boot the older boys and start playing the young guns waiting in the wings...

If any player should be dropped I think it should be KP who always seems to be in the papers for the wrong reasons.. IMHO the sooner he gets kicked out the team the better for England. I know the man is an electrifying bat but a player cant be bigger than a team...

England came up against a very determined South African team. You have to remember we have been chasing the No 1 spot for as long as you guys have held it.. We almost had it on our tour of New Zealand but the rain saved you guys in the end. :(

Lets hope the rain does not have a say in this series  ;)



Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on July 25, 2012, 09:55:01 PM
Pick Martin Bicknell!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 26, 2012, 06:53:18 AM
Do you guys not think your being a little harsh on your team... It seems most folk on here are news paper editors. As soon as things get tough most folk are calling for heads to roll. :o

I feel the years of dominance in world cricket are over (ie the golden days of Aussie >:() and I firmly believe that England are slowly coming to the end of the purple run of form. You lot have been a fantastic team for a few years but you cant win forever and as said already if you look at the last years results you guys have not really performed like a number 1 team in the world... I think after this series its time to boot the older boys and start playing the young guns waiting in the wings...

If any player should be dropped I think it should be KP who always seems to be in the papers for the wrong reasons.. IMHO the sooner he gets kicked out the team the better for England. I know the man is an electrifying bat but a player cant be bigger than a team...

England came up against a very determined South African team. You have to remember we have been chasing the No 1 spot for as long as you guys have held it.. We almost had it on our tour of New Zealand but the rain saved you guys in the end. :(

Lets hope the rain does not have a say in this series  ;)
seaem age and able to mature together.

There are two types of teams who make it to #1:

1/ A young team that is blossoming and grabs poll position after a series of excellent performances.

OR:

2/ An essentially older combination that caps off a sustained assualt on the #1 position by years of planning and preperation.

The English team that beat the brains out of Australia and then India to grab #1 were the latter type of number one. Paradoxically, the Australian and Indian teams they massacred were actually even older because both countries made the mistake of holding onto many over the hill players who had made them #1 in the past.

The imperceptable slide by England this year had at first gone barely noticed because it was thought to be merely a a hiccup in the overall scheme of things. However, there have been signs since even the all conquering India series last summer that inspite of reaching teh summit, it was not going to be an especially long stay.

Graeme Swan the barometer in the build up to the assualt on attaining the summit of #1, had an ordinary Ashes series and even more ordinary summer against the Indians. So while his collegues were filling their boots against Australia then India, he was merely serviceable.

In 2012 Swan has performed like a castrati and has perhaps, one or at best, two years left as a productive test cricketer.

Despite being a level headed, if somewhat unimaginative, captain, Strauss has been sliding with the bat and only a dead cat bounce series against the West Indians with the bat has saved him from the ignonimy of critics calling for his head due to lack of runs. The reality is that inspite of the very recent success, Strauss is on the steep decline as a test batsman and there is no shame in that, because the man is 36 afterall and given many years good service.

Jonothan Trott's career has followed a similar trajectory to that of Mike Hussey's in that both burst into test ranks late and with massive impact scoring mountains of runs. Both after a couple of years as successful test batsmen were eventually "worked out" by opposition bowlers and while they still score runs (they are both class players afterall), their output has come down to more mortal standards.

When you consider the above, the England team that was demolishing India last summer was already in need of a freshen up, but it is hard to change a winning combination and even harder still to change one that has clean swept a series against the former number 1's and grabbed the coveted number 1 spot itself.

If England loses this series and underwhelms in India, then the changes you would be looking at are as follows:

Cook, Bell and Trott are the core batsmen to rebuild the batting line up around. Pietersen still has some good years left in him, but he has also been on a steep decline over the last two years as well with the odd day out which reminds us of his rich talent.

So by the end of this year England need a new #6 (urgently) and a new opening partner for Cook (less urgent, but required sooner rather than later).

In terms of bowlers, the outllok is a fair bit brighter. Finn is just starting out, Broad is young un and Bresnan is hardly an oldy, so that is three that have many years ahead and all three a very good. Tremlett is the most dangerous paceman, but he is already 30 and injury prone, so best not to plan too much around him. He is a luxury, but one that cannot be relied upon for any length of time.

Anderson is the conundrum here. Despite his excellent service over the last two and a bit years, he has noticeably lost a yard of pace this summer. Much like Stuart Clark who had a huge two years of test cricket, once he lost that yard of pace, much of the sting went out of his bowling. While he was still very good, he was no longer the threat he once was.

England still has enough reserves in stock that unless the selectors fall asleep at the wheel, realistically England will maintain a top 2-3 position (if not #1) for a while yet.

Complacency is a big danger though and the lessons are there before your eyes.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 26, 2012, 08:30:14 PM
There are two types of teams who make it to #1:

1/ A young team that is blossoming and grabs poll position after a series of excellent performances.

OR:

2/ An essentially older combination that caps off a sustained assualt on the #1 position by years of planning and preperation.

The English team that beat the brains out of Australia and then India to grab #1 were the latter type of number one. Paradoxically, the Australian and Indian teams they massacred were actually even older because both countries made the mistake of holding onto many over the hill players who had made them #1 in the past.

The imperceptable slide by England this year had at first gone barely noticed because it was thought to be merely a a hiccup in the overall scheme of things. However, there have been signs since even the all conquering India series last summer that inspite of reaching teh summit, it was not going to be an especially long stay.

Graeme Swan the barometer in the build up to the assualt on attaining the summit of #1, had an ordinary Ashes series and even more ordinary summer against the Indians. So while his collegues were filling their boots against Australia then India, he was merely serviceable.

In 2012 Swan has performed like a castrati and has perhaps, one or at best, two years left as a productive test cricketer.

Despite being a level headed, if somewhat unimaginative, captain, Strauss has been sliding with the bat and only a dead cat bounce series against the West Indians with the bat has saved him from the ignonimy of critics calling for his head due to lack of runs. The reality is that inspite of the very recent success, Strauss is on the steep decline as a test batsman and there is no shame in that, because the man is 36 afterall and given many years good service.

Jonothan Trott's career has followed a similar trajectory to that of Mike Hussey's in that both burst into test ranks late and with massive impact scoring mountains of runs. Both after a couple of years as successful test batsmen were eventually "worked out" by opposition bowlers and while they still score runs (they are both class players afterall), their output has come down to more mortal standards.

When you consider the above, the England team that was demolishing India last summer was already in need of a freshen up, but it is hard to change a winning combination and even harder still to change one that has clean swept a series against the former number 1's and grabbed the coveted number 1 spot itself.

If England loses this series and underwhelms in India, then the changes you would be looking at are as follows:

Cook, Bell and Trott are the core batsmen to rebuild the batting line up around. Pietersen still has some good years left in him, but he has also been on a steep decline over the last two years as well with the odd day out which reminds us of his rich talent.

So by the end of this year England need a new #6 (urgently) and a new opening partner for Cook (less urgent, but required sooner rather than later).

In terms of bowlers, the outllok is a fair bit brighter. Finn is just starting out, Broad is young un and Bresnan is hardly an oldy, so that is three that have many years ahead and all three a very good. Tremlett is the most dangerous paceman, but he is already 30 and injury prone, so best not to plan too much around him. He is a luxury, but one that cannot be relied upon for any length of time.

Anderson is the conundrum here. Despite his excellent service over the last two and a bit years, he has noticeably lost a yard of pace this summer. Much like Stuart Clark who had a huge two years of test cricket, once he lost that yard of pace, much of the sting went out of his bowling. While he was still very good, he was no longer the threat he once was.

England still has enough reserves in stock that unless the selectors fall asleep at the wheel, realistically England will maintain a top 2-3 position (if not #1) for a while yet.

Complacency is a big danger though and the lessons are there before your eyes.


Very good synopsis of the state of the England team. I can see the England selectors going down this route but I feel if England can pull off (God forbid) a series win or draw the selectors might sit back and go well we made a fantastic come back so lets change nothing... It seems that as much as most England fans want a win the long term benefits of a series loss might be a good thing for English cricket... ???
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on July 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
...nope, I reckon we'll lose and they'll still keep picking the same team
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on July 29, 2012, 09:54:49 AM
No ravi in the latest squad? 5 man attack maybe? Or will JT get a debut?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on July 29, 2012, 11:01:30 AM
Love to see JT get a chance
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on July 29, 2012, 11:08:27 AM
Really want to see James Taylor, I think he's ready for test cricket ad would love him to do well
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on July 29, 2012, 11:34:33 AM
Seems an odd pick given he had a fairly poor winter and bad start to live in Div 1
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Simmy on July 31, 2012, 10:09:40 AM
Anybody off to headingley on thursday?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 31, 2012, 11:48:05 AM
YES! Hope this weather picks up!

Where you sitting?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ryan on July 31, 2012, 12:18:52 PM
I'm off with some lads from our cricket club on Thursday, cant wait  :D

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Simmy on July 31, 2012, 12:20:16 PM
me and fletcher are in the west stand
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on July 31, 2012, 12:30:20 PM
Enjoy the day boys.. So wish I was going..

Hope you boys get to see 10 english wickets or SA pile on the runs..  ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on July 31, 2012, 12:50:44 PM
West stand also - Row O apparantly!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ryan on July 31, 2012, 12:51:55 PM
think im on row X or something.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Simmy on July 31, 2012, 01:00:54 PM
im sure im row c haha but c and x is to far apart? lol
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ryan on July 31, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
because its BLOCK C and ROW X lol

Numpty!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence! NO SWANN!
Post by: Liam-SCCC on August 02, 2012, 09:33:22 AM
KP to play has main spinner then!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 02, 2012, 09:35:10 AM
England have won the toss and will bowl, confirmation that Swann has been left out and Steven Finn plays. First time since Headingley in 2003 (against South Africa) that England have not played a specialist spinner. That's a big call.

1 Andrew Strauss, 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 James Taylor, 7 Matt Prior, 8 Tim Bresnan, 9 Stuart Broad, 10 James Anderson, Steven Finn.

Personally I think not playing a spinner is a shoddy idea, having said that, the Saffers looked very adept at playing Swann and who knows how cronic his injury is.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on August 02, 2012, 09:41:26 AM
last few days have been wet up here Buzz. Last night the mother of all thunderstorms broke and I really wouldn't be surprised if the track will do a bit first up. Forecast isn't great for the next few days and the seamers might have the upper hand throughout. I might be wrong but Headingley isn't one of Swann's better venue, or spinners in general. I think it's a horses for courses selection and wouldn't read too much into it.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 10:55:21 AM
its all action at the mo.. lucky SA openers... very lucky... :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on August 02, 2012, 10:55:45 AM
That was appaling umpiring, who can you let 3 go and then the 4th time which happens to be a wicket taking ball call a dead ball!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 02, 2012, 10:56:31 AM
Should be 2 down by now! Don't see why that was called a dead ball, unless Finn was warned about it beforehand then whit give it dead ball? Finn had done it 3 times before that and none of them called dead ball until he gets him out! If only Swann was in the slips >:(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 02, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
What a joke, typical aussie umpires  ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 10:59:54 AM
Not sure if fin was warned  ??? but the umpire now has to call it a dead ball every time surely... ??
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 11:01:58 AM
What a joke, typical aussie umpires  ;)

We have had our fair share of rubbish aussie umpires.. I remember Daryl Hair being the worst... seems the umpire got the call spot on....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 02, 2012, 11:05:58 AM
To be fair the umpire was right, it's just annoying that he hasn't been consistent and called it every ball like it should be. I don't see why a test bowler is still hitting the stumps over, it should be coached out of him.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 02, 2012, 11:11:26 AM
The umpire 'may' call, not 'should' call dead ball.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 11:12:11 AM
will have to call it every time now...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 02, 2012, 11:12:22 AM
Another dead ball, at least he's consistent
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: pacman75cricket on August 02, 2012, 11:25:56 AM
Surely has to call no ball each time otherwise as batsman will claim distracted when out, but surely can't pick + choose by hitting other balls for four + it not be distracting.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on August 02, 2012, 11:26:32 AM
I can only think that the rule will have to be revisited. Either it's a dead ball or not.

Seems the South Africans have been a bit rum about it. Clever by them, but not in the spirit of the game. It hasn't been a problem for anyone else in works cricket, but I guess now the whole world will complain about it.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 11:40:44 AM
At this level I think Smith was correct to ask about it as it cant keep happening all day.. Finn should be able to bowl 5cm to the left...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on August 02, 2012, 11:41:58 AM
Going to get interesting if Smith keeps hitting 4's off dead ball calls.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on August 02, 2012, 11:54:31 AM
The BAS stickers on Petersens bat look very classy!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on August 02, 2012, 11:57:17 AM
There is something very asthetically pleasing about a clean white bat with no cherries on it.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 02, 2012, 12:00:53 PM
Thats a great start for the Saffers. At Headingly with these conditions England should have made some inroads especially with the movement they are getting.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 01:58:19 PM
What happened?? Went to bath the two dogs and we lost 2 wickets?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 02, 2012, 02:08:58 PM
Petersen better hit at least 200 to make up for that boo boo..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Chad on August 02, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
Believe it or not, I predicted that they would get off to a good start then lose 3 wickets cheaply to be left at around 153 for 3. Mind you, I thought Amla would still be in! :s
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on August 02, 2012, 04:17:29 PM
Just driving through headingley and it feels a bit humid. Might be some more wickets tonight. Headingley cc are getting loads of new friends on Twitter. They think we are the actual ground lol
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on August 03, 2012, 05:13:38 AM
Just out of curiosity, why is your derision toward the umpire and not the bowler?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on August 03, 2012, 05:46:58 AM
Not sure who that's directed at Tail Ender, or what it's in reference to
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ryan on August 03, 2012, 06:59:25 AM
Smith clipped a half volley to square leg & then Petersen decided to run out Amla :D


^^^like^^^
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ryan on August 03, 2012, 07:03:14 AM
It was very funny when someone in the west stand started singing to amla! "he's got his hair on upside down, he's got his hair on upside down"!! Haha

Good day out though, met Alex on the GN stand doing test match special bats. Really nice guy and he was making custom made GN 5 star for Ł150.00! Pretty good deal I'd say.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 03, 2012, 07:09:05 AM
So after a pretty even first day, here is hoping that my lot can bat till tea and then have you lot 4 or 5 down for not many by the close of play... :D

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on August 03, 2012, 10:42:35 AM
Rudolphs Dynadrive is looking sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Simmy on August 03, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
top day yesterday haha

"hes got his haiiiiiiiiiir on upside downnn"

hahaha
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 03, 2012, 11:18:39 AM
Rudolphs Dynadrive is looking sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

I was thinking the same thing. Even toying with the idea of selling my SAF to fund one...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tbarnfield99 on August 03, 2012, 11:43:47 AM
Doesn't look a great decision leaving Swann out after Pietersen is getting it to rip!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 03, 2012, 11:49:53 AM
England needs to take a more attacking approach... When will they learn they won't bore SA batsman out
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on August 03, 2012, 02:50:41 PM
Doesn't look a great decision leaving Swann out after Pietersen is getting it to rip!

The first test was played in very spinner friendly conditions yet Swann didn't get a single wicket, here at Headingley it has always been seamer friendly so we picked 4 quick bowlers. I think it was a good decision to leave Swann out against an opposition that are typically strong against spin.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on August 03, 2012, 02:55:56 PM
Strauss using the new Maverick, be quick to have a look as it won't be round for long!!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 03, 2012, 03:12:18 PM
And how will Cook bat?
After dropping AP when he was on 29, Cook owes the kitty at least 150+ runs!  :(
That was possibly the most expensive drop I've seen in a while!!!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on August 03, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
And how will Cook bat?
After dropping AP when he was on 29, Cook owes the kitty at least 150+ runs!  :(
That was possibly the most expensive drop I've seen in a while!!!!

Almost as expensive as Strauss putting himself at 2nd slip when Amla edged one through first slip while in double figures in the 1st test(Not sure if he had even got to 50 at this point).

Philander has got some pace, he's only bowling a few MPH slower than Steyn and Finn. I thought he was quite a slow bowler..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 03, 2012, 03:25:43 PM
He nearly did you proud! Still, I would take 182 any day!

He did me proud, just need the bowlers to do the same now.. :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: rawpace on August 04, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
Ayrtek in the test arena.  Hopefully he can stick can stick around for a while!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on August 04, 2012, 03:10:36 PM
Let's hope so, has the temperament for it so time to dig in and show what he can do
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 04, 2012, 04:47:19 PM
Stunning hundred from KP, some very very polite yet muted applause from the England dressing room.
As the star batsmen he I doubt he has won many admirers within the team.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 04, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
Great hundred from KP, Taylor backing him up sensibly as well which is good to see.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 04, 2012, 05:07:17 PM
Warnie's having a go at James Taylor's Ayrtek, saying it's the worst lid he's ever seen...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: NathRobbo88 on August 04, 2012, 05:08:22 PM
Warne doesn't seem to be taking much liking to James Taylors Ayrtek!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 04, 2012, 10:27:06 PM
Warne should have a word with his plastic surgeon before he has a go at how other people look!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 05, 2012, 10:21:34 AM
Warne is like KP a fantastic cricket player but such a ...........

Back to the game at hand.. quick wickets this morning will be nice followed by SA batting till tea tomorrow... :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: shaqharris on August 05, 2012, 10:29:59 AM
Lot Of exposure now nassa knows his stuff
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on August 05, 2012, 10:31:01 AM
I can't actually understand why Warne doesn't like them. Lol.

I suppose he didn't need much protection on the head, he's got nothing inside his head to protect :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: wilkie113 on August 05, 2012, 10:31:34 AM
On another note Prior is wearing the new masuri with the horrible grille, no comments on that yet!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: shaqharris on August 05, 2012, 10:33:12 AM
 All these laws are changing does that mean we will see bell in an ayrtek again ??
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 05, 2012, 10:34:43 AM
I like the new masuri and after trying on a team mates yesterday it has moved to the top of my shopping list...  :D A nice green one.... :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 05, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
All these laws are changing does that mean we will see bell in an ayrtek again ??

Which laws have changed?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: shaqharris on August 05, 2012, 10:41:39 AM
Maybe am jumping to conclusions but Tom said he ha a letter regarding helmets and he said his were up to top notch and wouldn't change not his exact words !!
So wondering if it's health and safety
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 05, 2012, 11:58:14 AM
Has anyone got a stream for this that will show the lunch break?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 05, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
Has anyone got a stream for this that will show the lunch break?
I've got one now :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 05, 2012, 01:14:38 PM
These 1998 highlights are great..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on August 06, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
Not sure who that's directed at Tail Ender, or what it's in reference to

Was regarding the Steve Finn/dead ball episode, and wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just a general observation - a few guys seemed to be implying the umpire was in the wrong and not Finn, who, let's be fair, was the one knocking the stumps over. Just wondering why more people weren't annoyed at him and that little foible in his game.

As for the Ayrtek comments - a few guys on my Facebook feed made comments about how they looked too. As I pointed out to them, it's not on your head to help you win a fashion contest, is it? But that's society's obsession with placing more importance on  how everything looks, rather than the purpose it serves.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 06, 2012, 02:09:56 PM
Who needs Swann in the team when you've got KP ripping the top order apart?!!  :) Why hasn't he been bowling more prior to this Test?!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 06, 2012, 02:17:55 PM
Bloody hell... Ripping them apart!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: 400notout on August 06, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
Pietersen's test victims now show - Dale Steyn, Ross Taylor, Graeme Smith, Kamran Akmal, Hashim Amla, MS Dhoni, Michael Clarke and Jaques Rudolph twice. Pretty big wickets, some very high class players in there. If it wasn't for the crap inbetween he'd could be Swanny's spin twin (if they picked him...)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 06, 2012, 02:48:31 PM
223-6 now... Could england do the unthinkable and force a result?  49 overs left in the day
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on August 06, 2012, 04:03:47 PM
Quite an interesting end to the Test, 253 from 39 overs needed at 6.5, and KP hits 12 of the first over!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 06, 2012, 10:30:41 PM
Twitter awash with the story that KP has played his last game for England.... Fair way to go out.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 07, 2012, 05:48:55 AM
Twitter awash with the story that KP has played his last game for England.... Fair way to go out.

Hmmm will miss his style of batting..would have made sense to play in the last game of the series. Cause let's face it, without his 149 England would be 2-0 down in the series..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on August 07, 2012, 07:54:53 AM
He likes the limelight far too much to give up international cricket completely just yet!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 14, 2012, 05:24:01 AM
He likes the limelight far too much to give up international cricket completely just yet!

Doesn't look like it will be his choice.

The much hyped Jonny Bairstowe will get another chance to live up to the wraps he has on his batting.

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 14, 2012, 06:50:49 AM
Big call if they going to leave Swann out again.. No KP to rip through our batting line up...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 14, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
KP's apologised for the texts sent
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 16, 2012, 08:06:04 AM
Well the final test is here.. lets hope its a good one and the best team wins....(SA that is) :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 16, 2012, 08:09:13 AM
With the lack of KP, plus the chaos that seems to be happening behind the scenes, I can see there being only 1 result!! So well done SA!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 08:16:05 AM
Saw a bit of sky sports news this morning and the eggs and bacon'ers are mad! one guy had been queing since 2:45am to get a seat in the lower tier.

I wonder how the outfield will play considering the Archery was there.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 16, 2012, 08:16:26 AM
Im looking forward to this "as strong and more united " England team taking on the Saffas.

I have a feeling this Test match will be spoken about for years to come for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kieron_BT on August 16, 2012, 08:22:38 AM
BREAKING NEWS

Andrew Struass and Andy Flower have been home and told their Mum's on KP for calling them names.

It is rumoured that AS and AF won't be going to KP's birthday party this year!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 16, 2012, 08:23:29 AM
the outfield is a bit patched up, but will be ok, and totally re done over the winter.

this is also Stuart broard's 50 test match.

my prediction is for an SA match and series win by the close on sunday.

England's only hope is something heroic from cook and bell. not impossible, but not realistic.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 08:28:58 AM
Strauss to dig in and get a ton today after winning the toss and batting first.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 16, 2012, 08:46:41 AM
It's time Trott got some runs.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on August 16, 2012, 09:04:06 AM
I think England will win. A happy side is better than a talented side, I know from experience.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Riddy on August 16, 2012, 09:10:54 AM
come on SA
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on August 16, 2012, 09:14:17 AM
I think England will win. A happy side is better than a talented side, I know from experience.
A happy, talented side is best!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 16, 2012, 09:25:41 AM
I think England will win. A happy side is better than a talented side, I know from experience.

I totally admire your optimism!
I just think that we would have to be on absolute top form to stand a chance against an excellent SA side!
And I really don't think that the players' heads are in the right place at the moment! I hope I am proved wrong and you are proved right, but I fear it may be a bit of a drumming!  :(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 09:42:13 AM
So Finn misses out, first mistake.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 16, 2012, 09:46:40 AM
Finn's playing
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 16, 2012, 09:47:03 AM
They've dropped Bresnan
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 09:48:11 AM
They've dropped Bresnan

from the bbc:
As anticipated, England make two changes from the second Test at Headingley, with Jonny Bairstow and Graeme Swann replacing Kevin Pietersen and Steven Finn. South Africa are unchanged, with opener Alviro Petersen having recovered from the hamstring injury which troubled him at Headingley.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 09:50:55 AM
On cricinfo they're saying that Bresnan is dropped
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 16, 2012, 09:51:23 AM
Sky have just shown Finn warming up, before confirming that Finn is playing after going through the team
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 16, 2012, 09:56:46 AM
(http://i47.tinypic.com/110fywk.jpg)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on August 16, 2012, 10:07:38 AM
BBC seem to have changed their minds!!

I'm a big fan of big Tim, but I think Finn is likely to make a bigger impact as a bowler and gives the attack a bit more variation. Would still have preferred a 5 man attack
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 10:13:30 AM
BBC seem to have changed their minds!!

I'm a big fan of big Tim, but I think Finn is likely to make a bigger impact as a bowler and gives the attack a bit more variation. Would still have preferred a 5 man attack

Completely agree, however with the 5man attack - these 'all round bowlers' haven't been making an impact with the bat recently.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: SaadIjaz on August 16, 2012, 10:30:50 AM
Eng will suffer in the bat later.. I cannot see young Jonny producing the same results as KP.. Another point, JB Should be batting below Matt Prior..

An awkward batting order this with Ian Bell Sandwiched between the 2 youngsters..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Gloves on August 16, 2012, 10:38:42 AM
Wicket! Smith Out!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 10:41:28 AM
Wicket! Smith Out!

Get In! need to get Amla early.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 16, 2012, 10:42:46 AM
Sounds like it was a poor shot rather than a decent ball?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 16, 2012, 10:50:17 AM
Sounds like it was a poor shot rather than a decent ball?
All that matters is he is out...
Still goes down as another for jimmy
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 16, 2012, 10:59:07 AM
Don't get me wrong - a wicket is a wicket and I'm happy that he's out!  :D
Just thought it was out of character for him not to be patient at wide balls!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 16, 2012, 11:03:06 AM
Probably thought it was a pie that needed gobbling up
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Gloves on August 16, 2012, 11:32:16 AM
Now Amla and Petersen are out!!
Good start for England!
And now Kallis is out, Might have been a bad decision from the 3rd umpire though.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 16, 2012, 11:51:32 AM
Petersen appeared unlucky, Kallis was just plain ripped off.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on August 16, 2012, 11:52:25 AM
Need to learn to get their hands out of the way of the short ball.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steyn92 on August 16, 2012, 11:52:43 AM
This is why Finn should be in the team.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ppccopener on August 16, 2012, 11:57:48 AM
Kp is texting straussy saying he should recall his mate kallis :) :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 16, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
It looks like Finn has justified his place - Welcome back to county cricket Mr Bresnan
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 16, 2012, 12:03:47 PM
great start to the game :( Here is hoping our lower order is up for batting today....  :o
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 16, 2012, 12:05:02 PM
Haven't seen the 'shocking' decision as only have cricinfo at work!
But always a bit bad when something like that happens I reckon  :(

Saying that, I still reckon will need that bit of luck and then some more!
Looking forward to watching the highlights later, although Amla (who I love watching bat) is already out! That's not a bad thing considering the 300+ he got last time though  ;)

Finn sounds as if he's bowling superbly well
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on August 16, 2012, 12:05:07 PM
Snicko said that Kallis hit it, although I'm not sure how the 4th Umpire would be able to tell that...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 16, 2012, 12:14:07 PM
Snicko said that Kallis hit it, although I'm not sure how the 4th Umpire would be able to tell that...

It touched his glove clearly.

But his glove was off the bat - clearly.

Kallis was incorrectly given out.

Petersen's decision looked similar, but he didn't think about querying it until it was too late.

Smith was plain dumb and Amla got an jaffa.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Dan W on August 16, 2012, 12:54:00 PM
It touched his glove clearly.

Not all that clearly but...

But his glove was off the bat - clearly.

That was as plain as day...Can't believe the decision was overturned. Oh well :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 16, 2012, 12:57:37 PM
just to add, that if the two gloves were touching and the top hand was also on the bat, but the bottom hand which gets hit by the ball is off the bat, then the batsman is out too. I have no idea whether that is the case in this instance - reports suggest they were apart and it was just a shocking decision (still never mind Jaques, you will get another go in the second dig...!)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on August 16, 2012, 01:03:07 PM
Out of interest, why is that the rule?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 16, 2012, 01:11:11 PM
I have no idea.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on August 16, 2012, 01:15:12 PM
Out of interest, why is that the rule?
It will be something to do with continuous contact with the bat...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Bruce on August 16, 2012, 02:34:27 PM
Duminy using a Kookaburra scuff-sheet on his Gray Nics.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 16, 2012, 04:39:45 PM
After being left out here, Onions is back in durham.  Just taken all 10 wickets against Notts ( 9 fer and a run out!)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: tim2000s on August 16, 2012, 04:52:31 PM
After being left out here, Onions is back in durham.  Just taken all 10 wickets against Notts ( fer and a run out!)
That's pretty impressive...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 10:59:03 AM
So much for SA having a long tail - this is ridiculous - worried it's slipping away a bit now...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 17, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
Great time to pick up the skipper :D... All out just after tea???? :o
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 17, 2012, 12:12:14 PM
Time for trotty to step up.

I wonder if Prior gets a ton he'll decidate it to IJC?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 12:42:41 PM
Time for trotty to step up.

I wonder if Prior gets a ton he'll decidate it to IJC?

Haha, maybe that might at least inspire a 'thank you', which we've still yet to receive, by the way...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 17, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
Haha, maybe that might at least inspire a 'thank you', which we've still yet to receive, by the way...

Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 12:57:20 PM
Trott out to Steyn - yet again... Another LBW too - safe to say he's been "worked out" now at Test level! Maybe we'll need a big one from beardie baldie and his IJC grips after all!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 17, 2012, 01:08:35 PM
England as i thought look very ordinary indeed maybe not picking your best player is something to do with it.

I know who would not be in my side and KP would be first name on the sheet..

Maybe Trott has been found out like Swann has and the boy wonder Broad butter would not melt  :D

Looks like we need a new revolution of players or are not as good as we thought we where..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Jenko on August 17, 2012, 01:12:54 PM
I take it cooks dismissal was pretty bad going on cricinfo's live commentary!!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 17, 2012, 01:15:48 PM
I take it cooks dismissal was pretty bad going on cricinfo's live commentary!!!

Played at a very wide delivery... Great catch by Kallis though
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 01:32:55 PM
Apparently the guys at cricinfo haven't heard of the Ayrteks either: "What's that thing on Taylor's head?" New wave helmets they call it I think..."

It amazes me that people who make a living from commentating on cricket can know - or pretend to know - so little about the game!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 17, 2012, 01:41:37 PM
I applied to work at cricinfo once.  But it seems they prefer people with journalistic qualifications and a limited interest in cricket than someone who actually knows about cricket, but with limited journalist experience
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 17, 2012, 01:43:26 PM
 You're kidding? :o ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 04:43:24 PM
Deep down Louisiana close to New Orleans
Way back up in the woods among the evergreens
There stood a log cabin made of earth and wood
Where lived a country boy named Johnny B. Goode
Who never ever learned to read or write so well
BUT HE COULD PLAY THE GUITAR JUST LIKE HE'S BATTING WITH BELL!

Go go
Go Johnny go
Go
Go Johnny go
Go
Go Johnny go
Go
Go Johnny go
Go
Johnny B. Goode

Who needs KP when you've got Johnny B.??!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 17, 2012, 04:47:43 PM
Very pleased for Johnny Bairstow, always nice to see a young lad to well and he was really tested today.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 17, 2012, 04:49:22 PM
He's done well. Philander really set Bell up for that nick though.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vantage_Cricket on August 17, 2012, 04:50:19 PM
and here's prior with the IJC grip.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 04:50:59 PM
Anyone caught a glimpse of the grips yet?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: johnnyw on August 17, 2012, 04:52:26 PM
Anyone caught a glimpse of the grips yet?
They must still be in the dressing room as he is using a white grip
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 17, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
They must still be in the dressing room as he is using a white grip

or maybe underneath the white one? Oh well, at least they've paid up!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ciaran on August 17, 2012, 05:00:14 PM
Wasnt with a card registered in India by any chance was it? ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 19, 2012, 08:10:46 AM
What a test match we have on offer now... Felt for JB yesterday.. So close...I think SA need about another 250 to make the game safe?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on August 19, 2012, 08:17:48 AM
It is very evenly poised, which I think is great for the game. Good to see England giving themselves a chance, but SA are still favourites. If they bat until tea it's game over. If England bowl them out before lunch then they give themselves a great chance, and if SA are dismissed during the afternoon session then I think it could go either way.

SA batting is sooo deep though that it's going to take some brainless batting or some inspired bowling (and let's face it, England have look ordinary so far)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 19, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
England quicks vs steyns batting... Hehehehe
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 19, 2012, 01:10:46 PM
When it rains it pours for KP... A golden duck for Surrey
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 19, 2012, 05:10:15 PM
fat lady is singing, well played saffas.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 19, 2012, 05:27:09 PM
Not quite.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 19, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
Interestingly enough Finn thinks England have gotten themself into a position from which they can win the match, that's youthful optimism if I ever saw it!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: shaqharris on August 19, 2012, 07:01:17 PM
Interestingly enough Finn thinks England have gotten themself into a position from which they can win the match, that's youthful optimism if I ever saw it!
I have to agree if bell and trott can survive the first 40 - 60 min tomorro I will be hopefull .
Only change I may make is bringing prior up the order if things go tits up
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 19, 2012, 08:21:02 PM
While my cricketing brain is saying England can't win. I have learned not to think its over till its over.. So until we have the last english wicket or have bowled the last ball leaving England short of runs... It won't be over for me..

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 19, 2012, 08:48:43 PM
It has been such an incredible Test match and England have lost the last 2 sessions today. These I feel was the most crucial sessions in the entire Test and Finn had a storming end to the Saffers innings. SA will wrap things up comfortably by tea. Bairstow has come good and I feel that Finn is much better than Broad in attitude and also more of a wicket taker. Amla just never fails and Philander seems to have all the attributes of an allrounder in the Pollock mould.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Dan W on August 19, 2012, 08:51:46 PM
We only have 2 wishful thinking aspects that make a series defeat a probablity rather than a certainty

1) The Team wants to show it can win without Peiterson

2) A draw does nothing for us - in fact it will infuriate me if they block out 90 overs
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steiner on August 19, 2012, 09:42:09 PM
I actually think fighting for a draw is very important tomorrow. Assuming there isn't a miracle England will have won only 3 from 11 in 2012 (2 of those vs windies at home!)

Essentially this is a side in no real form with some important series to come. Add to that the fact they are a side in transition - Pietersen gone for a while (hopefully) no established no. 6, probably needing to 'rest' Broad for both his bowling and to break up the 'clique'
Openers unable to score runs etc.

Think a battling draw would do wonders - far better to end the test season on a more positive note and address these issues than following another drubbing.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Dan W on August 19, 2012, 09:46:02 PM
I actually think fighting for a draw is very important tomorrow. Assuming there isn't a miracle England will have won only 3 from 11 in 2012 (2 of those vs windies at home!)

Essentially this is a side in no real form with some important series to come. Add to that the fact they are a side in transition - Pietersen gone for a while (hopefully) no established no. 6, probably needing to 'rest' Broad for both his bowling and to break up the 'clique'
Openers unable to score runs etc.

Think a battling draw would do wonders - far better to end the test season on a more positive note and address these issues than following another drubbing.

It's just such an....English thing to do!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on August 19, 2012, 09:50:42 PM
I can see what you're saying, a battling draw is actually an improvement on what we've seen recently, and I can't disagree with your logic regarding KP and Broad but I just don't see England doing that. Flower wouldn't let them. Nothing is gained by a draw so they'll go for it and they'll come up short....I hope they do it, I have a day off tomorrow and I'll be watching it all but I just don't think England are playing well enough to cope with SA's seamers....Tahir doesn't count as he's rubbish although I imagine Bell will struggle against him.

It's no bad thing that we lose this series, SA are a better side and this might just be the kick up the backside we need to kick on again. Maybe things have just got a bit stale? Broad bowling at 79mph all series surely won't be tolerated again?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: steiner on August 19, 2012, 10:03:12 PM
But it wouldn't be possible to set out to try and win the game from here.

Also Bairstow, Taylor and Broad have a lot to gain by battling and avoiding defeat (arguably Bell too)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 19, 2012, 10:07:52 PM
Broad shouldnt be in the team purely on being a highly annoying chap that bowls at 79mph.
All that "best bumper in world cricket is just crap". Finn has proven himself to no end and must me made a regular.
And what about Onions who is in sizzling form? Time for a big shake up for Team England.
Trotts been sussed out and Strauss has finished the season on a low ebb. Pietersen might never play again.
This is has been a poor year for England and its time they woke up, which will feel different as the number 2 team.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on August 19, 2012, 10:51:56 PM
Not too sure that Trott has been 'sussed out' it would be a very brave person to leave him out of the current England side. So, he's had a poor run with the bat, so has everyone else in this side.....he's a class player. Boring, but classy and he's done no worse than anyone else this summer! Unlike a few others, his temperament for Test Cricket is unquestionable.....

Onions is a good shout, I would have had him in for Broad in this test but they would never have done it. Broad bats, Onions doesn't. Seems daft really doesn't it! We have a 4 man attack and one of them (previously 2 with Bresnan) are/were being picked for their batting ability! If we're to stick with 4 bowlers then we have to pick them purely for their bowling ability....not for anything they might offer with the bat which is only ever going to be a bonus.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 19, 2012, 11:10:53 PM
Trott will be a mainstay in the team for years ahead as his temprement and concentration is fantastic, as is Cooks.
This has been a poor series for him against his old countrymen and he will come back strong.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on August 20, 2012, 07:18:26 AM
This series has confirmed to me that Steve Finn should be a constant in the bowling ranks. Bowled superbly.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: rbanners on August 20, 2012, 11:16:31 AM
oh dear
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 20, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Go on Johnny lad, 37 off 24, keep it up lad
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 11:47:08 AM
Looks like we can win this, provided we don't lose a couple of quick wickets.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 11:47:33 AM
Bairstow isn't going out without a fight!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on August 20, 2012, 11:50:45 AM
Looks like we can win this, provided we don't lose a couple of quick wickets.
I think we can as well, Trott is the key though I think. He needs to just stay there and keep the scoreboard ticking over and rotating the strike. Bairstow is on a roll here, with him going like this and if Prior is on form then the runs shouldn't be a problem, just the wickets.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 11:52:44 AM
Preferably get as close as possible before the new ball is due.  Can't see us getting more than 50 if the new ball is available when the tail comes in...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 20, 2012, 11:55:18 AM
I very much doubt that we will win this.
BUT JB is showing that if you bat without fear and still play shots, that it's possible to get runs! The SA bowling attack are superb, but all bowling attacks will go for runs!

Plus he is showing his class and that he wants some ODI games!  ;)
Win or lose, you got to admire his attitude!  8)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 20, 2012, 11:55:55 AM
Preferably get as close as possible before the new ball is due.  Can't see us getting more than 50 if the new ball is available when the tail comes in...

the thing is, its a fith day pitch and we only have Prior plus the "all rounders" Broad and Swann to come.  To chase another 240 from here would be one hell of an effort.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Kulli on August 20, 2012, 11:59:41 AM
Wećve gone from dropping half the team to deciding it's practically in the bag in the space of an hour!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 12:02:04 PM
Wećve gone from dropping half the team to deciding it's practically in the bag in the space of an hour!
Gotta stay positive fella!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 20, 2012, 12:03:01 PM
Wećve gone from dropping half the team to deciding it's practically in the bag in the space of an hour!

some people have  >:(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 12:47:48 PM
50 for Bairstow
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 20, 2012, 12:50:38 PM
And gone  :(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 20, 2012, 12:50:41 PM
out for Bairstow too tho
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 20, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: mike1989 on August 20, 2012, 01:02:57 PM
Prior has a different bat. Hope it makes the difference! Anyone know what it is?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: 400notout on August 20, 2012, 01:04:07 PM
Regardless of the bat, Prior will get out sweeping Tahir out of the rough...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: mike1989 on August 20, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
So he's now using a slazenger v12 off the front I've just seen. Not seen that one before...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Chad on August 20, 2012, 01:20:56 PM
Judging from the scorecards, Bairstow has proven himself to the people (including myself) that felt he wasn't ready to make an impact. I think the top order need to take a look at their own batting at the moment, as this seemed to be a problem for England against Pakistan and now against SA. Match can still be won, but will be a lot less likely with Bairstow out. If Prior and Trott get out, I only really see Swann scoring some runs though... :(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 20, 2012, 01:22:30 PM
winning from here required 50+ overs at almost exactly 4 runs per over on a fifth day pitch...just can't see that happening given the absence of leeway as regards wickets in hand!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 01:29:30 PM
I can hear the fat lady singing...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 20, 2012, 01:38:48 PM
I can hear the fat lady singing...
I could here her singing yesterday...
fat lady is singing, well played saffas.
I feel it is more "the Last Post" than anything more joyful from an English point of view.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
On a brighter note, at least they've made it halfway there!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 02:27:33 PM
Just the small matter of 141 runs...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PM7 on August 20, 2012, 02:29:26 PM
Surely if Prior and Broad bat another hour it will be squeaky bum time .... or am I kidding myself?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 02:34:42 PM
Surely if Prior and Broad bat another hour it will be squeaky bum time .... or am I kidding myself?
Kallis has struck! Now it's all down to Prior and Swann to put something together to take us home, one can hope!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 02:35:37 PM
Swann might smack a quick few before being caught at cover...  All over bar the shouting now...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ajmw89 on August 20, 2012, 02:45:34 PM
Any chance of someone doing a Tino?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 03:03:52 PM
Any chance of someone doing a Tino?
Or an Andre Russell!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ItsJustCricket on August 20, 2012, 03:22:41 PM
Mr Swann finally back in form with the bat... Good timing!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: samsam2 on August 20, 2012, 03:31:14 PM
Incredible match now! Just a shame that I saw day 5 at the oval, not lords!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 03:35:27 PM
Swann run out! Real game on now :O
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 03:43:36 PM
Nail biting stuff, there's always an element of luck to victory in any sport. Prior really has to make use of this reprieve.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: legger123 on August 20, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
So nervous :(
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ppccopener on August 20, 2012, 03:59:13 PM
we have used up all our luck now!!!!

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 04:02:14 PM
Philander's done it again, looks like it's all over now... Unless Finn and Anderson can pull off something spectacular!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: yvk3103 on August 20, 2012, 04:03:39 PM
Phil finishes it off.

SA are No. 1 Teat team.........................well deserved.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: RightArmRapid on August 20, 2012, 04:06:26 PM
Yet another 5fer for Philander, this man cannot be underestimated!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 20, 2012, 04:08:24 PM
Very well deserved. In this series, definitely outplayed us! Truly a number 1 team, absolute class! Probably fair to say that England are deservedly number 2 in the world (although I'm sure Vic disagrees). How long will they keep it up mind? With their team perhaps in a similair position to England last year, and India the year before, although perhaps they are just that bit younger!

Well played SA, a great team to watch!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: ppccopener on August 20, 2012, 04:26:47 PM
yep,
fantastic effort from us today but South Africa have been the better side and deserved number 1.

I just hope the 50 commentators on sky or whatever dont slate England because some of them forget.....we were never number 1 when they played....

stick with this team and we will do well,plus ravi and onions.

Bye KP, lets look forward
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 20, 2012, 04:38:22 PM
Lets be honest, it was always going to be this series which lead to who was going to be number 1 and they outplayed us when it counted. Not an embaressing display from England but a 2nd best performance nonetheless. SA showed they are a much better bowling unit (-Tahir, who I thought was pretty average). Interesting stat that I'm sure most of you are aware of. Amla was dropped twice this series, with the net cost being 394 runs! England dropped 9 catches in total. Rusty, not sure, not good enough - certainly! Still, we're still better than the Aussies lol.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 20, 2012, 04:50:00 PM
It's ironic that England fielding was seen as superb for quite a while (in the last couple of years)
And for a few Tests now, our catching has let us down as much as any area! (Batting has also been more than a little inconsitent!) Consider for example that if Amla had of been held on 2 and AB had of been held on 8, then the target would have been 150 runs less that it ended up! And we would have chased them down!  :(
Catches really do win matches chaps....it's official!  ;)

But seriously, you can sometimes get away with being off form in one area of cricket! But in two areas (batting and catching) you will lose!
Also if we had of held those 2 catches and drawn the series, I feel that it wouldn't have been fully deserved!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Johnny on August 20, 2012, 05:05:27 PM
....I think England are 3rd now... Behind Oz!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 20, 2012, 06:13:20 PM
They weren't at 4:00 this afternoon. Don't know if anything else has changed since then. Odd how all the things that got England to number 1 fell apart in this series. Attention to detail, world class fielding etc.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 20, 2012, 07:19:56 PM
So the series is over  :( should have been a 5 test series.. maybe the powers that be will get that sorted out for next time ???

fantastic last day of a test match and I will be honest when Prior was caught off the no ball one word came to mind... Chokers...
But that was not meant to be for once  :D

As for England I feel the skipper, Broad and KP should be given a break.. A really really long break for KP ;)....

As for SA I think they need a few cold ones :D and then back to the task of trying to win the ODIs and T20 cause England's limited over cricket has been a lot better than there tests.

I tell you what boys its nice sitting at NUMBER 1.......... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 20, 2012, 07:21:19 PM
Enjoy it mate, some-one will work bloody hard to get that off you lol! I reckon Australia will be the next ones to be up there.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 20, 2012, 07:24:07 PM
i dont rate Australia chances at all there bowling is poor at best

There only quality bowler is injured and young
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Abighugeappl on August 20, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
Broad should be looking at his test place, done minimal with the ball and ok with the bat.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 20, 2012, 07:51:32 PM
i dont rate Australia chances at all there bowling is poor at best

There only quality bowler is injured and young
No neither do I, but with Vic around I couldn't be bothered to give him ammo, and look like a blinkered Englishman lol thinking that we have a divine right to go back to #1, which I don't necessarily agree with.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Bez013 on August 20, 2012, 07:55:58 PM
Broad should be looking at his test place, done minimal with the ball and ok with the bat.

I'm not a fan of Broad but I just looked up the bowling stats for 2012 and he is the leading wicket taker in tests for England in 2012 with 40 @ 27.77....in the SA series he is the leading wicket taker for England with 11 @ 39.72 with only Finn and KP boasting a better average and strike rate.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 20, 2012, 08:07:44 PM
Broad I think needs a break and then try hitting the 90mph mark again...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 20, 2012, 08:10:42 PM
like overton did in Australia with the 19's

Like the look of Topley too but Finn is quality

I do not like the cut of Broad but nobody can knock his stats
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: The_Bird on August 20, 2012, 08:18:56 PM
Broad I think needs a break and then try hitting the 90mph mark again...

I've never been a fan of Broad's attitude, It's smacks of a spoilt kid. Sometimes his petulance rubs off on the other guys as well. I thought the way the Saffers carried themselves especailly morkel who for me has the perfect attitude for a bowler. Bowls fast and aggressive and does all his talking with the ball. I've always respected the bowlers who have said little and just got the job done.

Reece Topley broke the stump in half, he gets my vote. The speeds at the U19 world cup have been pretty impressive. Overton was touching 94mph early on, they maybe fiddled with the speed gun!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 20, 2012, 11:16:53 PM
I dream a dream... Aus beats SA 2-1 and takes back number 1 ranking  ;) :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: bigboy on August 20, 2012, 11:40:00 PM
It's not a dream number4, aussies are as good as both these sides, it just comes down to the perforance on the day ( as long as they don't bring Johnson back in of course )
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 03:19:44 AM
It's not a dream number4, aussies are as good as both these sides, it just comes down to the perforance on the day ( as long as they don't bring Johnson back in of course )

Not quite.

Australia at present would not beat either SA or England

Bowling is improving heaps, but batting is brittle and relying on old blokes.

Until the next young Aussie batting sensation is prepared to stand up and make some scores, then really, it will be a case of the bowlers knocking over the opposition and then the batsmen pissing the advantage up the wall.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 03:23:51 AM
....I think England are 3rd now... Behind Oz!

England is 1 point ahead of Australia.

If you lose in India, then I think you drop to third.

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 03:27:35 AM
Very well deserved. In this series, definitely outplayed us! Truly a number 1 team, absolute class! Probably fair to say that England are deservedly number 2 in the world (although I'm sure Vic disagrees). How long will they keep it up mind? With their team perhaps in a similair position to England last year, and India the year before, although perhaps they are just that bit younger!

Well played SA, a great team to watch!

You are just being silly now Nick.

If you lose in India (as I expect is distinctly possible), then England will drop to #3 and Australia will rise to#2.

So what?

England still holds the Ashes and is still better than Australia.

If Australia rises to #2 without even playing a test, then that is hardly anything to get excited about.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 21, 2012, 04:07:09 AM
Just watching the U/19 world cup and Kurtis Patterson looks a promising batsmen of the future for Aus
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on August 21, 2012, 04:58:32 AM
I'm not being facetious in asking this, but do you think just getting to #1 was enough for England? All the work they put in and players they brought on in trying to gain that #1 ranking and then finally getting it, do you think they got complacent and thought "well we've done what we wanted"? Or is it deeper than that? Genuinely interested to hear what people think.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 21, 2012, 05:40:37 AM
I dream a dream... Aus beats SA 2-1 and takes back number 1 ranking  ;) :D

I hope your dream turns into a nightmare :) 3-0 white wash to SA.. Aussi were the best team in the world for 10+ years... So I make it at least another 10 years for them to be down the world order...;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: bigboy on August 21, 2012, 06:47:16 AM
Not quite.

Australia at present would not beat either SA or England

Bowling is improving heaps, but batting is brittle and relying on old blokes.

Until the next young Aussie batting sensation is prepared to stand up and make some scores, then really, it will be a case of the bowlers knocking over the opposition and then the batsmen pissing the advantage up the wall.

Thanks Vic but I am quite comfortable with my knowledge of cricket and the way I form an opinion. I understand you like to come across as a font of knowledge but it's quite clear from your posts that your opinions are based on trolling the internet and rumours spread amongst forums.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: bigboy on August 21, 2012, 06:58:12 AM
I'm not being facetious in asking this, but do you think just getting to #1 was enough for England? All the work they put in and players they brought on in trying to gain that #1 ranking and then finally getting it, do you think they got complacent and thought "well we've done what we wanted"? Or is it deeper than that? Genuinely interested to hear what people think.

I agree, and it will keep happening till the next team dynasty comes along, whichever country that may be. Not sure it's compalcency though, I just think the teams are all pretty evenly matched. Fans seem to be panicking about losing to SA but surley Englands form over the last 12 months pointed to it happening?
The short term pain of dumping KP would be well worth the long term gain in my opinion, cricket was around before him and will be around long after, he would be a failed boy band member without cricket, not a multi with a world wide profile.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on August 21, 2012, 08:02:29 AM
Congratulations SA, you did brilliantly and deserved that, you have shown yourselves to deserve the No.1 spot and I can truely say you have a very complete team.  It will be one hell of a fight to get that ranking back off you.

Onto England we were just not good enough over the 3 tests and if we had managed to pull off the unthinkable yesterday I don't feel we would have deserved to call oursleves the best team in the world.  We need to take a long hard look at the make up of the team and whether we bring in a 5th bowler.  For me I think we have to.  Bairstow also looks to have answered his critics and should come in for KP, who despite his talent shouldn't be seen in an England shirt for a long long long long time.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 08:25:49 AM
England played like what they are, the second best team in the world at the end of a performance cycle.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on August 21, 2012, 08:47:40 AM
England played like what they are, the second best team in the world at the end of a performance cycle.

Yup....spot on assessment. Out bowled, batted and fielded. No where to hide, possibly a freshening up of the squad then go again. Anyone who lacks the appetite for it gets left behind...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: charlie15 on August 21, 2012, 09:52:15 AM
Yup....spot on assessment. Out bowled, batted and fielded. No where to hide, possibly a freshening up of the squad then go again. Anyone who lacks the appetite for it gets left behind...

I agree about bringing in some new faces, but how far do you go?  Taylor and Bairstow are already in how many more changes do you make without upsetting the balance of the team, new players need time to bed in, a lot of this just seems like pressing the panic button.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 09:54:36 AM
I agree about bringing in some new faces, but how far do you go?  Taylor and Bairstow are already in how many more changes do you make without upsetting the balance of the team, new players need time to bed in, a lot of this just seems like pressing the panic button.

My thoughts were put out there yesterday - I'd like to see a couple of teh old hands moved on, possibly Strauss (though I'm less certain about that today than I was yesterday) and, for me, Broad - though that would be more a "resting" to allow him to work on his game with a view to coming again.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 21, 2012, 10:03:31 AM
I actually think England put up a good fight to get as close as they did
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: uknsaunders on August 21, 2012, 10:04:21 AM
Problem with our press in particular is they always go to extremes. Get to number one and we're the best thing since sliced bread. Lose to SA and it's a cull. Truth always lies inbetween. Getting to number one with the schedule we had was great but nobody said after playing Pakistan in UAE or SA we'd still be there. England, Oval aside, haven't been outplayed, just beaten and SA have been good value for the win. Would the result be the same if they played again, possibly not based on the last 2 matches. Just as no right minded person was getting too excited about being number 1, nor should they worry about losing a series. The building blocks are there and given time this team will continue to improve. SA are at their peak imho, we might not see some of them again.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 10:06:19 AM
Thats true, E
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
Try again...

England are building - the key is to get players who are approaching their peak in the side, and gently moving on the dead wood.  The next target has to be to be at their best for the Ashes next year and that needs a lot of work.  We're still, for me, favourites for that series because the Aussies have even more questions over their batting than we do, but we must use this as a wake up call...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 21, 2012, 10:11:23 AM
Who are Australia Quality bowlers??????

I can only think of 1 and he is injured and very inexperienced???

England do not need to change much  were not that bad we just got beat by a better team in all departments.

We got to see 2 new test players and one has made the step up hopefully..

Agree with Nick to much overreaction

The Aussie's have big issue with both bat and bowl i follow shield cricket it not all rosy over there
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Jenko on August 21, 2012, 10:20:48 AM
Not just the Pommy press who go to extremes! Australia gets slammed over here now that we aren't number one anymore....too much success apparently they aren't allowed time to rebuild.

Yeah we do seem to have a shortage of test quality players coming through the ranks here in OZ....but lets not divert away from England losing the number one ranking :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 10:24:18 AM
Who are Australia Quality bowlers??????

I can only think of 1 and he is injured and very inexperienced???

England do not need to change much  were not that bad we just got beat by a better team in all departments.

We got to see 2 new test players and one has made the step up hopefully..

Agree with Nick to much overreaction

The Aussie's have big issue with both bat and bowl i follow shield cricket it not all rosy over there

I think they have the potential to field a decent seam attack - Harris is a great bowler if fit, Cummings has potential and Pattinson is better than he appeared when he was over here for the ODIs.  Siddle is no muppet, Hilfenhaus never lets anyone down and Starc...well, hes an adopted tyke now...

No, they are not as good as our first five, but they are not a million miles behind.  And they do have the bonus of Watson as a fifth bowler and Clarke's part time spin to offset Swann's clear supremacy over whiochever clubbie they bring to bowl tweakers...
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 21, 2012, 10:30:34 AM
only Cummings has impressed recently for me agree about Harris but is he going to be fit.

Shame we measure our yard stick by the Aussie.

Shame Brad Hodge was not english
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 10:33:18 AM
Right now there are Aussies sayng the same about Jade Dernbach!  ;)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 21, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
If we are talking ranked bowlers we have Steyn and Philander at the top of the heap....... 5th we have Anderson, 6th Hilfenhaus, 7th Siddle & 8th Broad.

Batsmen we have Sangakara and Amla 1 & 2! Clarke at 6 and England has no-one to be seen?

Like I said before the England batsmen are the problem.. When 4 of your top 5 score less than 15 runs between them you have a problem
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: procricket on August 21, 2012, 10:43:27 AM
well let battle commence the Ashes start here i going for another another England victory with Monty Panaser player of the series with 400 runs and 30 wickets


Ranking all interpritation mate Australia have 2 in top 20 we have 5 bowling....


England will beat the Australia again..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
Thanks Vic but I am quite comfortable with my knowledge of cricket and the way I form an opinion. I understand you like to come across as a font of knowledge but it's quite clear from your posts that your opinions are based on trolling the internet and rumours spread amongst forums.

Your argumentum ad hominem does you no credit at all - but if that is the way you wish to conduct yourself, that is your choice.

You can accuse me of being a troll, but if you go back to threads on this site exactly a year ago, England were #1 and Australia were #5. The general consensus around this site was that "England will be #1 for a decade or more" and "Australia will be battling with the West Indies and Bangladesh for years to come at the bottom of the test rankings".

The now legendary Hads45 predicted confidently that India would annihilate Australia 4-0 on Australian soil. When I pointed out that was highly unlikely to happen, simply because India has never won a series here. Undeterred by facts, Hads45 constantly harped on that Australia had nothing and that India was a brilliant team that only lost to England because England were the second coming of the cricketing messiahs. As ridiculous as that sounds now, he actually had a lot of support around here. I think he kept his mypoic chatter up until the second test, whereby he then disappeared never to be seen again.

Who was trolling there?

Not only did the vast majority here believe the above, but many of you (with some notable exceptions) DELIGHTED in rubbing my face in the dirt and reminding me that Australia was #5 "and falling further" and that England was #1 "and will stay there for a decade because we have so many brilliant kids coming through". I responded to that with now prescient claims that "Australia will not stay down long because we always bounce back fast" (boy was I ridiculed for saying that) and that Englands reign at #1 may very well last for a while, but nothing is certain. I did not see the requisite brilliance back then for a Windies 80's or Aussies 90's/00's type of relentless dominance, but even the usually rational Manormaniac felt it necessary to remind me when I mentioned:

"Anyways, what is so objectionable about the above sentiment anyway? Is it inconcievable that in five years time Australia will be quite a good test team?

Are you that convinced that England’s current world beaters will still be all conquering in five years time? Have you added five years to each player in the present team to see who will still be playing?"

Manormaniac reminded me that:

"As for England, yes, I actually do.  Accepting that Strauss, probably Pietersen and perhaps Swann and Anderson will be at the end of their careers, I think we will still be left with some excellent residual talent – Cook and Bell have demonstrated genuine flair for compiling massive scores, and will only improve with age, whilst Bresnan, Finn, Tremlett and Broad should all still be available. For all the list of young talent you put forward for Australia, I can offer a far longer list of English options who are at least as far along the road to Test careers."

Was I trolling?

In my Aussie heart I would love to believe your assessment that: "aussies are as good as both these sides, it just comes down to the perforance on the day" - but, I just don't see it at this stage. The fact that I see SA and England as still being a class above Oz at this point time hardly makes me a troll!

Anyways, it is apparent you do not want me to have an opinion on your posts. I shall refrain from commenting on anything you say for fear of you accusing me of trolling.

Best of luck and all that.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 21, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
Ahhh the Vic we know and love  ;) well said
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 12:13:37 PM
Ahhh the Vic we know and love  ;) well said

Well, it won't stop me praying every night that we DO beat SA this summer and England next winter.

I just don't see it happening. :(

Wasn't it good to see the U19's win their semi final today? :)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on August 21, 2012, 12:16:05 PM
Yes and a few promising players there too... Although it looks like the poms have a couple of good bowlers coming through as well after watching their game he other day.

I think the Captain Bosisto ran himself out just so he could get an average after never being dismissed in the tournament lol
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 12:18:02 PM
Not onvinced that there is much in our Under 19s for anyone to fear this year - though oddly a couple of the best ones have been lft in the county game, which noone has been able to explain!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 21, 2012, 12:19:21 PM
Well, it won't stop me praying every night that we DO beat SA this summer and England next winter.

I just don't see it happening. :(

Wasn't it good to see the U19's win their semi final today? :)

What did you make of the Mankading?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 12:29:30 PM
What did you make of the Mankading?

I find Mankading distasteful.

Others may disagree..

A warning not to do it again should be the way.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: shaqharris on August 21, 2012, 12:29:54 PM
I love the fact this time last year the ecb and broad were complaining there was not enough t20 for him to get experience now when there is they give him a holiday !!!!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 12:30:34 PM
Not onvinced that there is much in our Under 19s for anyone to fear this year - though oddly a couple of the best ones have been lft in the county game, which noone has been able to explain!

What about Topley and Overton x 2?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Alvaro on August 21, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
I find Mankading distasteful.

Others may disagree..

A warning not to do it again should be the way.

Agree totally.
I think Bell-Drummond failed to do himself justice.
Foakes is promising, as is Kapil.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 21, 2012, 12:53:59 PM
Foakes can play.

Bell-Drummond had a terrible tournament, but he has some class. Just didn't adjust.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Tail Ender on August 21, 2012, 02:47:07 PM
Who are Australia Quality bowlers??????

I can only think of 1 and he is injured and very inexperienced???

The Aussie's have big issue with both bat and bowl i follow shield cricket it not all rosy over there

Sorry, but you're way off with the bowlers. Pattinson is only 22 and has already taken 26 wickets in five tests. Proved himself to be fast, effective and has a ruthless mean streak. Has problems with injury, as lots of young quicks do, but he's been quality.

Jackson Bird lead the wicket taking charts with 53 wickets in his first Sheild season; Ben Cutting was on the cusp ot test selection before injury got him; Nathan Coulter-Nile is quick, improving and has potential and James Faulkner looks very good. These guys behind Harris, Siddle, Hilfenhaus (improved massively since last Ashes and got his pace back), Pattinson, Cummins, Starc and Lyon isn't bad. I'm not saying they're on a level with England's top line and next crop, but the bowling stocks are decent.

Batting, yeah... That's a different tale.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 21, 2012, 06:11:59 PM
saw Coulter Nile in the A test - he wouldn't scare my grandma!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 22, 2012, 07:37:14 AM
 :D :D :D :D :D

(http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx279/knarf333/article-0-14A08B6E000005DC-728_634x467.jpg)
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 22, 2012, 02:19:27 PM
saw Coulter Nile in the A test - he wouldn't scare my grandma!

West Aussies love Coulter-Nile...bowling on the bouncy WACA probably makes him look better than he is. I am not a fan.

Pattinson, Cummings, Starc and Hazelwood are the four to watch. Cutting, Bird etc I need to see more of.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: petehosk on August 22, 2012, 02:20:58 PM
I have a feeling that Pattinson and Cummings will be particularly promising!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Nickauger on August 22, 2012, 08:01:47 PM
I have a feeling that his SA team might well be stronger than the England one that rose to the top of the tree last year!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: MJB3 on August 22, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
I have a feeling that his SA team might well be stronger than the England one that rose to the top of the tree last year!

I'm not sure, as good as SA are, and certainly deservingly winners of the series, I don't think anyone  could say that England played to their optimum.The lack of runs was disappointing, Only 1 hundred vs 5 and only two batsman averaging 50, both who only played 2 tests (Swann and KP).
These are certainly not excuses, however this was not an England Team playing to its full potential.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Buzz on August 23, 2012, 07:57:22 AM
Cook and KP both scored hundreds - but was the poor batting caused by good bowling... in some cases yes - but there was certainly some seriously muddled thinking in the top order.
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: MJB3 on August 23, 2012, 11:12:53 AM
The same argument could be made with England's bowling to SA,which Jimmy says wasn't up to scratch

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2012/content/current/story/578724.html
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Manormanic on August 23, 2012, 11:38:45 AM
South Africa had the best batsman, the best bowler and the stand out game changer of the series, and were the fresher side to boot, ergo thy were deserved winners.  Look at the Wisden idea of a composite xi for the series and ask how many English players would you honestly select?  I'm guessin a maximum of four, but most likely two or three (Pietersen, Prior, Swann)?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on August 24, 2012, 09:09:24 AM
So then number 1 spot is up for grabs today  :)... would rather trade a loss of this series to win the T20 world cup :D... which I dont think we will win.  :(..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Vic Nicholas on August 24, 2012, 01:20:12 PM
Each of them is auditioning for the title of Australia's Darren Anderton though...

In Cummins case, that is a far call!

Sick note Cummins!
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on September 05, 2012, 12:43:16 PM
Bairstow and Woakes into the team then, good chance for these two to showcase what they can do
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 05, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Against my lot they should shine... :D

Here is hoping our middle order can bat today..
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on September 05, 2012, 01:25:49 PM
Bopara couldn't get runs if you gave him laxative
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Number4 on September 05, 2012, 02:11:09 PM
Gower and Atherton don't seem to like each other much
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: alexhilly1492 on September 05, 2012, 02:27:24 PM
england in a spot of bother?
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 10, 2012, 05:08:50 PM
Is the game still on tonight or is it raining??
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: alba caerulea on September 10, 2012, 05:17:23 PM
Starts at 18.30, Luke Wright in for Bopara, 3 changes for S.A
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 10, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
Would have liked Bopara to be playing  :D
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 12, 2012, 08:17:07 PM
Fantastic hitting by england and really funny opening over.. 
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: junter97 on September 12, 2012, 08:24:54 PM
That wide from Morkel was what I like to call, a genuine wide. Buttler was filth though! 29 of 8 at one point and Bedwetter was class as well, now can we do it with the ball?


Oh yes bresnan
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 12, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
Anybody know how many runs Amla has scored on this tour. I have a bet running witht the wife
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on September 12, 2012, 08:46:33 PM
Anybody know how many runs Amla has scored on this tour. I have a bet running witht the wife

They just said around the 900 mark I think....
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 12, 2012, 08:55:20 PM
Saw that as soon as I put my phone down.. Well played to amla this summer and well played to england tonight..

Still not sure why ontong is playing for SA
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: Bruce on September 12, 2012, 08:56:24 PM
The finest old school grille on Ontongs lid
Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on September 12, 2012, 09:00:22 PM

Still not sure why ontong is playing for SA

I can tell you it's nothing to do with his ability..... ;)

Title: Re: Eng v SA.........let the battle commence!
Post by: FvanN on September 13, 2012, 05:39:52 AM
I can tell you it's nothing to do with his ability..... ;)



Aint that the truth...