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General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: Manormanic on May 13, 2018, 03:47:15 PM
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To save the County Championship thread from being sabotaged by Test selection debates, we might as well start this thread a week or two early.
So, Ed Smith's first selection, though with the same captain and coach who wanted the existing bunch of players. A lot of opinions out there as to whether there will be a ginormous "stick" with a squad deemed to be the best available, or a "twist" and opportunities for the next generation of players. Amongst the best points I have heard on the subject is that Smith might decide that the generation of Borthwick, Stoneman, Vince etc has yielded what it has available, and move on to the next generation back and players such as Joe Clarke, Dan Lawrence, Ollie Pope, Sam Curran and Harry Brook.
My thread means I get my points in first. I reckon there are 6 certainties in the side - Cook, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow and Anderson - and that Broad is near enough the seventh. The remaining four slots need one opener, a seamer and two more, which could include a spinner and either another batsman or perhaps a keeper to relieve the perceived stress of YJB.
The incumbents would be Stoneman, Vince, Woakes/Wood and Leach, plus Moeen. Of those, the only one I would probably pick is Leach. Position by position:
Opener:
Stoneman has a reasonable technique, but his temprament has been shown a little flawed, in that he has struggled to score against quality spin and alternate strategies. His start to the season has been poor. At first, it looked like there was no form amongst the other contenders, but there have been suggestions that YJB or Vince might be tried as a more aggressive option, Jennings has been making runs and statistically Rory Burns is due consideration.
Batman/Keeper:
Joe Clarke? Great technique, in form. Ben Foakes likewise, though the effect of taking the gloves off our best player has to be considered.
Seamer:
Whoever we go for has to bring something different to Anderson, Broad and Stokes. For me that rules out Woakes, who has played no red ball cricket, and Craig O. as well as the deserving likes of Porter and Coad. In terms of point of difference that leaves extreme pace, but Jamie O is injured, Plunkett on the IPL bench and Garton has not had much cricket with Sussex or lefties.
My team:
Cook
Eek...at a push, Burns
Malan
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Clarke
S Curran
Broad
Leach
Anderson
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You have missed the guy who has a very good chance at replacing Stoneman.... Nick Gubbins.
2 matches..... 107 & 99 averaging 71.
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Think Jennings is the chap getting another go.
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Yes I think Jennings is the one the want back, Hameed can't be selected at the moment but the talent and temperament are there, or appear to be to me anyway
This is tricky because selection often has an eye on the future, like picking hameed and Jennings.
On the other hand if Stoneman is dropped its on his County form not test match cricket which he has done 'OK'.
If he was dropped now it's a carbon copy of the Carberry selection, personally I think he deserves this test series myself he is a good solid player....and the Ashes was tough for a lot of batsman.
I'm not sure of the best 11 now, but this is what I think.
A specialist spinner plays, our attack is too ordinary apart from Anderson who remains a class above, so
Leach plays
Keeper/batsman.
Time for a change, Foakes in and Bairstow bats top 5, he may not want to do that but he is one of the best batsman in the land, we need his runs and getting left with the tail in Tests is just ridiculous. If we do play a spinner all the way through we need the best keeper standing up to the Stumps.
Number 3.
Vince is not a number 3, he just is too loose and cannot seem to concentrate. So not in my team
So my team looks like this
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Leach
The bowling still looks a bit samey with 4 right arm seamers.
You could well argue if we are going to try a new batsman the only way to do that is Bairstow keeps and therefore a spot is available.if so you could have a look at(must be a batsman I think)
Jennings
Clarke....I think this lad has a lot of class
Gubbins
Livingstone
Burns possibly.
The other option is leaving out woakes but I think we need his runs down the order with a tail of Anderson,broad and leach-so not ideal.
Whichever way, England do have selection problems
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This is definatly going to be an interesting squad selection.... on the 1 hand you have the same coach and captain wanting consistently and on the other a new National Selector in Ed Smith wanting to stamp his authority on things with changes etc...
Basing my decisions on that YJB won't give up the gloves and that Root won't move from number 4... my thoughts below...
Openers
Cook definitely playing. Stoneman dropped, harsh but his county form is awful and if your not scoring runs at the oval then you aren't in nick at all. I would select someone new... Nick Gubbins, he is having a great start to the season.
No. 3
I definitely drop Vince and move Malan to bat 3.
Middle Order
Root obviously. Then Joe Clarke comes in, this kid is the goods, scored another 100 this round of CC. Stokes at 6.
WK
Bairstow keeps the gloves and bats 7.
Bowlers
Anderson and Broad pick themselves. I think that we need to play a specialist spinner for variation and Leach did nothing wrong in NZ so keeps his place (although Virdi looks a great prospect). That leaves the last seamer spot, this I honestly think could be 1 of about 5 bowlers.... Woakes, Coad, Porter, Ball, Tongue, Joe Leach.... the list goes on!
My team is...
Cook
Gubbins
Malan
Root
Clarke
Stokes
Bairstow
Broad
Leach
Anderson
Don't know!....see below...
I am really struggling with that last bowler as there are lots to choose from who would possibly be on debut etc... I would love to see a new quick bowler be given a chance... Stone, Tongue or Coad but then I look at our tail and think that maybe we should just stick with Woakes knowing that we will have the back up batting etc...
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Sh*t or bust -
Gubbins
Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Curran S
Leach
Broad
Anderson
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Vince has enough county runs behind him this season and will be picked.
Ditto Jennings will open with Cook. His technique has improved (in a way that Ballance hasn't)
My chat to the powers that be say that the squad will be
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Anderson
Broad
Leach
Curran S (after cleaning up Yorkshire this weekend)
I have seen more of Foakes and Burns this summer thanks to the live streaming. It is clear why Burns isn't being considered from his technique. I think the same about Foakes, he is still a little too open and stiff at the crease for me.
Pope is the most talented of the Surrey batters and has by far the best technique of all of them.
I wouldn't have Vince in my team personally, but Michael Vaughan and Ed Smith are mates so Stoneman will get axed and Vince will stay.
Gubbins is very unlucky and is on the cusp.
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Sorry, must have enjoyed Sunday lunch too much. For a moment, I actually thought someone referenced Joe Leach as a potential test pick.
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Sorry, must have enjoyed Sunday lunch too much. For a moment, I actually thought someone referenced Joe Leach as a potential test pick.
Sorry @Manormanic but not sure I like the tone of your post. What are you suggesting exactly? That I shouldn't be referencing Leach in this thread and I am stupid to do so?
I merely put him in a long list of bowlers that have done well this season... Leach has 23 wickets @ 22 not to shabby. We have a new order in selection so everyone will be being looked at.
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Sorry @Manormanic but not sure I like the tone of your post. What are you suggesting exactly? That I shouldn't be referencing Leach in this thread and I am stupid to do so?
I merely put him in a long list of bowlers that have done well this season... Leach has 23 wickets @ 22 not to shabby. We have a new order in selection so everyone will be being looked at.
Honestly, not sure why I would care if you like the tone of my post. But to answer your question, I'm not doubting it's a sincerely held opinion, but it is one of the stranger ones I've heard.
Fact is, there are certain criteria that are looked for in a test seamer. The ability to bowl above 80mph, and ideally above 85mph, is high on the list. It isn't that I have anything against Leach, who is a wholehearted cricketer, but he bowls mid 70s on a good day. It'd be like me arguing that Steve Patterson should be considered, or Chris citing Darren Stevens. County cricket has had lots of similar players in recent years - Smith and Brown got one test apiece, Lewis two. But Chris Rushworth, Glenn Chapell, Keith Barker, Jack Brooks...all took more wickets, in successful sides, and never got close. Tim Murtagh did play...for Ireland. But if we are declaring Tom Curran too pedestrian when he hits 84...
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Honestly, not sure why I would care if you like the tone of my post. But to answer your question, I'm not doubting it's a sincerely held opinion, but it is one of the stranger ones I've heard.
Fact is, there are certain criteria that are looked for in a test seamer. The ability to bowl above 80mph, and ideally above 85mph, is high on the list. It isn't that I have anything against Leach, who is a wholehearted cricketer, but he bowls mid 70s on a good day. It'd be like me arguing that Steve Patterson should be considered, or Chris citing Darren Stevens. County cricket has had lots of similar players in recent years - Smith and Brown got one test apiece, Lewis two. But Chris Rushworth, Glenn Chapell, Keith Barker, Jack Brooks...all took more wickets, in successful sides, and never got close. Tim Murtagh did play...for Ireland. But if we are declaring Tom Curran too pedestrian when he hits 84...
You should care how others view your posts. How we talk to each other on this forum should be paramount to everyone.
Of course your points regarding pace and selection are correct and I don't debate those. But we simply don't have anyone quick who is ready to pick (Bairstow was standing up to Coad in the Essex game for example) and that was my point.
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If all else fails, pick the guys in form...
Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Clarke
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Leach
Broad
Anderson
I wouldn't object to Stoneman being included, but he hasn't really kicked on. Jennings? Meh...
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I can see James Hildreth getting a call.
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Sadly, I suspect there will be little if any change.
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Can’t seen anyone asking or making YJB give up the gloves much like no one will ask or make Root to bat at 3.
Personally think Stoneman needs one more series if after that no hundreds then I’m afraid he will be cast aside.
I think spinner wise is the huge debate and a spot that needs filling ideally in the mould of a Ali replacement that can bat as well but personally not sure who that is and given the green damp wickets generally this early in the year anyone really knows Leach from Somerset did ok so maybe him. Vince I think will stay at 3 although don’t think he should I would like to see Denley personally but that’s because I’m a massive Kent fan but I generally think he has been the most consistent N03 for the last 2 seasons and hit a Ton against Pakistain this month
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I can see James Hildreth getting a call.
If that happens it will only be about 10 years too late...
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If all else fails, pick the guys in form...
Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Clarke
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Leach
Broad
Anderson
I wouldn't object to Stoneman being included, but he hasn't really kicked on. Jennings? Meh...
If you are picking guys on form then you would get a big mix, but Pope, Jennings and Vince would all be in the team.
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Can we stop the Pope talk, please? I can't deal with another young player having his career ruined by England talk when he's 9 first class games into his career.
For what it's worth, I think we're reaching a point where Bairstow is far too good to be at 6/7; would personally love them to give the gloves to Foakes but don't see management changing much.
With regards to seamers they'll pick someone like Overton or Ball
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Leach out with a broken thumb.
Mo likely to return.
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Leach out with a broken thumb.
Mo likely to return.
Was just about to post the same having seen it on Facebook http://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/england/somersets_jack_leach_suffers_break_to_left_finger.html (http://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/england/somersets_jack_leach_suffers_break_to_left_finger.html)
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If they pick Ali it will be a player by his own ommision was lacking confidence and should of been dropped a couple of matches ago-this is going to be interesting.
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Dom Bess from Somerset could get a go here I reckon!
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There's no merit to Moeen being selected. He was an embarrassment over the winter
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if it's not Leach it'll be Moeen, no way they pick another uncapped spinner.
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Vince going big at a good time?
Completely agree on Mo as well, hasn't done anything to warrant a selection, but he will probably get picked. Doesn't that just degrade the CC though? He's playing bit part role in IPL whilst others grafting on unfriendly early season wickets.
My opinion is they should try somebody else. Whoever the spinner is wouldn't be bowling too much in the series anyway I'd have thought. Gives both coach and player a perfect chance to see how they fit into the side. Coach sees how player performs in a tougher environment and how he fits in with players etc, Player realises first hand what it takes to play at the highest level and gets opportunity to learn from bowling at better players in nets and out in the middle?
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How about not picking a spinner - go in with 4 seamers plus Malan and Root to fanny about a bit in the last innings?
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How about not picking a spinner - go in with 4 seamers plus Malan and Root to fanny about a bit in the last innings?
who would the 4 seamers be?
anderson and broad
woakes
and? wood? ball? neither of those fill me with hope, id like to see a youngster but no one has had that great of a start to the season, other than ball, gurney has done ok but i dont think he's good enough
overton might get in by default of being ok in the ashes before injury
then theres stokes as the 5th seamer/bowler anyway
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How about not picking a spinner - go in with 4 seamers plus Malan and Root to fanny about a bit in the last innings?
Could pick 4 seamers - as long as there is some variation like picking S. Curran
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Vince 201* "drop me now punk or face the wrath of Vaughan"
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Vince 201* "drop me now punk or face the wrath of Vaughan"
If ever there was timely runs.
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If ever there was timely runs.
Jeeeez! Did he time that to perfection!!
It will take a brave selection to drop him now.
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Slightly surprisingly to me anyway he no nonsense Lancastrian David Lloyd is a huge fan of Vince, you might think he's a bit too fancy Dan for bumble
But he says England should stick with Vince
Yes Timely runs indeed, a double ton is a fairly big statement.
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A triple never helped KP 🤣
In all seriousness... if he can bat like that he deserves to be in the side and I hope he starts to show it in England colours moving forward.
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He's probably bought himself the series there. Suspect he's condemned Stoneman and Foakes' chances in so doing.
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Root does not want to bat 3 either...that might be another reason for a longer run in the team. If Stoneman is replaced by Jennings it's not too many changes to the order. We have lost in Oz and lost against NZ, we do need to start getting results.maybe they will play safe.
The order looks like this is it?
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Anderson
Broad
......a spinner maybe. It could be Ali, a mistake I think but it fits and he would bat 8 behind Bairstow?
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Watched a lot of the mighty Durham game today and Mark Wood bowled really well! Some good hostile *quick* bowling, picking up 5, showing what he can do if he can stay fit.
*no actual speeds but looked pretty sharp on the stream and troubled the batsmen somewhat.
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An alternative side with better variety:
Cool
Vince
Malan
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Clarke
S Curran
Broad
Wood
Anderson
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Nick Compton , decent player who never quite made it at the top, reckons either Cook bats 3 or does not play at all.
Blimey......are we really that good we can leave out a player like Cook with a proven test record.
Appreciate Cook is probably on the way down but it seems an over reaction to me.
I can't see how having two potential new openers fixes the problem, surely we still need Cook plus another,maybe Jennings if you want a younger player......
Interesting to see forum thoughts as I know there are a few of you who think cook should be dropped
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There is a fair argument that in the four years, or is it five, since Strauss retired, England's various partners for Cook have produced two great innings between them - Adam Lyth against New Zealand and Haseeb Hameed Vs India. That being the case, Cook will be given the rest of the summer, almost regardless.
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Nick Compton , decent player who never quite made it at the top, reckons either Cook bats 3 or does not play at all.
Blimey......are we really that good we can leave out a player like Cook with a proven test record.
Appreciate Cook is probably on the way down but it seems an over reaction to me.
I can't see how having two potential new openers fixes the problem, surely we still need Cook plus another,maybe Jennings if you want a younger player......
Interesting to see forum thoughts as I know there are a few of you who think cook should be dropped
cooks nailed on to play and he will play throughout the summer even if he doesn't get a score
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Nick Compton , decent player who never quite made it at the top, reckons either Cook bats 3 or does not play at all.
Blimey......are we really that good we can leave out a player like Cook with a proven test record.
Appreciate Cook is probably on the way down but it seems an over reaction to me.
I can't see how having two potential new openers fixes the problem, surely we still need Cook plus another,maybe Jennings if you want a younger player......
Interesting to see forum thoughts as I know there are a few of you who think cook should be dropped
Compton talking absolute nonsense imo, Vaughan-esque edgy statement in an attempt to stay relevant.
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Compton talking absolute nonsense imo, Vaughan-esque edgy statement in an attempt to stay relevant.
Couldn't agree more, total rubbish
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Shouldn't Compton be looking for another county?
And shouldn't Moeen Ali be in England bowling some overs?
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Shouldn't Compton be looking for another county?
And shouldn't Moeen Ali be in England bowling some overs?
yes and yes
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Shouldn't Compton be looking for another county?
And shouldn't Moeen Ali be in England bowling some overs?
Not ideal but
At least Mo is having a bowl in the IpL and not on the bench like certain other England test match bowlers
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I think it will be....
1 - Cook
2 - Stoneman/Jennings/Burns
3 - Vince
4 - Root
5 - Malan
6 - Stokes
7 - Bairstow
8 - Ali (Would love Bess to get a go but can't see it after Ali's form last home summer)
9 - Woakes/Wood/Overton
10 - Broad
11 - Anderson
Yeh, i've sat on the fence a fair bit but I can't honestly see it being a million miles away from previous squads. Would love Smith to make a statement and pick 1 or 2 wildcards
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what i think it will be - as others have posted boring and tweaked from the last team
what id like it to be and partially based on form
jennings
burns
cook
root
malan
bairstow
stokes
woakes
S curran
broad
anderson
jennings appears to have sorted his technique a little and coming off back to back tons
burns has earned his spot with plenty of runs over the last 3 years
ive said for a while i think cook needs to bat at three (although compton is daft to say 3 or bust) i think it takes the pressure off a little bit
sam curran - yes not the quickest but hes a leftie and moves the ball also took 10fer against yorkshire
the rest pick themselves tbh
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others i think are not too far away from a call are ball clarke and foakes
i wish hildreth was 5 years younger as he more than deserves a call up but its probably too late in his career
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what i think it will be - as others have posted boring and tweaked from the last team
what id like it to be and partially based on form
jennings
burns
cook
root
malan
bairstow
stokes
woakes
S curran
broad
anderson
jennings appears to have sorted his technique a little and coming off back to back tons
burns has earned his spot with plenty of runs over the last 3 years
ive said for a while i think cook needs to bat at three (although compton is daft to say 3 or bust) i think it takes the pressure off a little bit
sam curran - yes not the quickest but hes a leftie and moves the ball also took 10fer against yorkshire
the rest pick themselves tbh
No front line spinner?
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No front line spinner?
not early on in the summer no,
for the later games id pick leach assuming he's fit or someone really left field like parkinson at lancs or critchley at derby
then again bess is looking hard to ignore and virdi too
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Bess and Virdi seem to young and we don't want to ruin them, but then on the other hand, if you're good enough you're old enough?
I think going back to Mo is the wrong move, but trying to think who else is there?
Batty or Samit as a stop gap?
Does someone like an Ollie Rayner finally get a bash?
I see Leach as the mid-term solution, and would be a shame to go backwards in the meantime whilst he recovers from injury
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The Telegraph are reporting Jos Buttler is going to be recalled and batting at 7 in the first Test
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/05/15/jos-buttler-given-surprise-call-up-england-test-squad/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/05/15/jos-buttler-given-surprise-call-up-england-test-squad/)
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🤦♂️
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The Telegraph are reporting Jos Buttler is going to be recalled and batting at 7 in the first Test
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/05/15/jos-buttler-given-surprise-call-up-england-test-squad/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/05/15/jos-buttler-given-surprise-call-up-england-test-squad/)
Going backwards again. Picking players on white ball form for test cricket.
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Going backwards again. Picking players on white ball form for test cricket.
the last test series he was apart of he did well, that was in india.
I wouldn't mind buttler playing as hes a damn good player, i think he needs the weight of runs in cc first though.
given the time he's had away form the test set up i dont see it as a backwards step, hes a better batsman now that before too
although i may live to regret this endorsement!
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To be fair, we have to try and get Buttler in at some point, the guy is a complete freak with the bat. Wouldn't be the first player to be parachuted into a test side from limited overs, although most countries would pick him in the middle order rather than hide him at 7! Never going to play enough first class cricket to be able to force his way in that way so that's a bit of a moot point to be honest.
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Does this mean Bairstow will be up the order and replicating his fine ODI form in the top 5?? I think he is definitely capable of batting anywhere in the top order and even a viable option to open. Buttler is someone who can win a game in a session. We need x factor players like this, not only to win games but to get bums on seats!! Better keeper than Bairstow too
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Shouldn't Compton be looking for another county?
And shouldn't Moeen Ali be in England bowling some overs?
It's his testimonial at Middlesex this season, so would be unusual to leave now even if he isn't being selected.
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Does this mean Bairstow will be up the order and replicating his fine ODI form in the top 5?? I think he is definitely capable of batting anywhere in the top order and even a viable option to open. Buttler is someone who can win a game in a session. We need x factor players like this, not only to win games but to get bums on seats!! Better keeper than Bairstow too
Bairstow's a better keeper than Buttler by a notable distance.
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I've just seen something on Facebook saying Vince is to be dropped and Dan Bess will be in the squad.
No idea where the person got this from, mind you...
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I've just been told (not sure how true) to expect a surprise addition to the squad
Presumably Buttler and Bess (kind of) would be classed as surprise additions? Or in addition to them?
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23509854/jos-buttler-dom-bess-set-england-calls-james-vince-faces-axe (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23509854/jos-buttler-dom-bess-set-england-calls-james-vince-faces-axe)
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Buttler? Really? I give up with this new selection panel already.
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I am getting confused here!
I assume they are picking Buttler for his current form, which is a decent reason to pick him!
BUT if they are picking Buttler due to his form, why drop Vince? His form looks very good indeed.....
And surely Bess will only play on spinning wickets?
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Where is Haseeb Hamid?
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Where is Haseeb Hamid?
Dropped by Lancashire as he couldn't buy a run, shouldn't be near a Test squad...
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Vince being dropped has got to be a red herring surely but butler recall would be a surprise
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Dropped by Lancashire as he couldn't buy a run, shouldn't be near a Test squad...
Oh no! Haseeb, what have you done bruh?!
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I think I might cry
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Buttler stoneman Bess in
Vince leach Livingstone out
What do we all think?
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BBC have Bairstow as named WK, does this mean Buttler is batting in the top 5? Or specialist bat down at 7?
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Jesus. Surprised about Vince . I don’t think he will be long term at 3 myself but still a surprise
Is butler keeping?
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Can we sack Ed Smith already?
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Such an underwhelming squad announcement. The selectors had a chance to put their foot down and make a statement about a new exciting England test team moving forward.Unfortunately they’ve taken the easy option.
We’ll win this summer and lose/draw abroad. On the cycle goes.
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Makes no 3 spot interesting..... root, malan or even Bairstow if he doesn't have the gloves.
Should Vince feel hard done by or not? Some decent scores in CC to get at least a couple of tests but 13 tests he should have definitely done better.
Glad they've gone to a different spinner to Ali as well after leach's injury. even if they won't bowl too much.
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interesting to see who bats at 3 looking at who theyve picked its got to be bairstow surely?
cook
stoneman
bairstow
root
malan
stokes
buttler
woakes
wood/bess
broad
anderson
will we pick a spinner? will stoneman miss out?
cook
bairstow
root
malan
stokes
buttler
woakes
bess
wood
broad
anderson
it looks weak if stoneman doesnt play tbh it doesnt look great if he does play
oh well, its what we've got time to get behind the boys!
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Malan will bat at 3 and Bess will carry drinks until there is a spinning wicket available to bowl on.
Root will stay at 4 because he wants to and Bairstow go to 5.
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Urgh.
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interesting to see who bats at 3 looking at who theyve picked its got to be bairstow surely?
cook
stoneman
bairstow
root
malan
stokes
buttler
woakes
wood/bess
broad
anderson
will we pick a spinner? will stoneman miss out?
cook
bairstow
root
malan
stokes
buttler
woakes
bess
wood
broad
anderson
it looks weak if stoneman doesnt play tbh it doesnt look great if he does play
oh well, its what we've got time to get behind the boys!
I reckon Bess will miss out. They'll use Malan and Root as the spinning options with Buttler probably batting at 7. Malan will bat at 3.
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What's the point, honestly.
Baffling and incompetent.
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Going in with no spinner when Moeen couldn't bowl worked well for us in the winter didn't it, are you mad.
Don't really see the problem with this squad? Would people rather have seen Vince get yet another go, or Moeen play instead of a really promising young spinner?
Livingstone would probably have got the shout ahead of Buttler but hasn't got any, and Clarke and Sam Curran may be good prospects but given they're still in short trousers I can understand not picking them yet. Unfortunately none of the potential new proper quick options has played very much cricket this year either, what are you gonna do?
Woakes or Wood will miss out, any other selection from that squad wouldn't make much sense...
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Going in with no spinner when Moeen couldn't bowl worked well for us in the winter didn't it, are you mad.
Don't really see the problem with this squad? Would people rather have seen Vince get yet another go, or Moeen play instead of a really promising young spinner?
Livingstone would probably have got the shout ahead of Buttler but hasn't got any, and Clarke and Sam Curran may be good prospects but given they're still in short trousers I can understand not picking them yet. Unfortunately none of the potential new proper quick options has played very much cricket this year either, what are you gonna do?
Woakes or Wood will miss out, any other selection from that squad wouldn't make much sense...
Agree with that part from I think Vince & Buttler are both very good prospects that should have grasped test cricket but haven't really.
Bess has to play for me, 5 seamers is too much, Root would be changing every 8 overs if there wasn't a wicket.
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Look, they've told these cricketers to go back into county cricket and perform. They have- and they haven't picked them. Shifting the goalposts yet again. Buttler hasn't even played county cricket this season.
Nothing for Vince after a double-ton, nothing for Gubbins, Clarke, Pope or Foakes.
Bess has also taken 1 wicket this year, whilst Virdi has 17.
Seriously, is there are ANY part of ECB administration that isn't an absolute farce?
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Hahaha
Clueless yet again. England will easily win at home so we can read nothing into the summer performances anyway. Shame.. ECB miss yet another chance to change things.
A lot of county red ball players will be thinking ‘what’s the point’.. might as well go play hit and giggle
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I was hoping to see Foakes behind the stumps and move Bairstow up to batting!
Foakes is a true World class keeper!!
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Not impressed. Totally the wrong message being sent to county cricketers.
Would I rather Vince given another go than Buttler? Yes, absoltely, 100%.
I'm sure Bess is a talent, but it's frightening to think that we haven't got anything else.
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If I'm not mistaken Moeen averages nearly 50 against Pakistan with the ball ergo he's not a viable selection even if you disregard his pitiful performances over the winter
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I was hoping to see Foakes behind the stumps and move Bairstow up to batting!
Foakes is a true World class keeper!!
Seems they are going to move Bairstow up the batting order anyway. But I'd have preferred the Foakes option.
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This squad really is a shot in the arm to the CC and the county pro's.
I know Butler is a bit of a freak but to pick him when he hasn't played any red ball cricket (he averaged 17 for Lancs in 4 CC games in 2017) is really putting out a bad message.
I am certainly no advocate of Vince and don't think he is a Test match no.3 at all but they asked him to get CC runs, he got 200 of them and he didn't didn't get picked.
Stoneman on the other hand hasn't scored 30 and keeps his place.
There is no logic to this at all.
1 things for sure Rajastan are going to be pissed - losing Butler for the end of the IPL they wouldn't have thought that would happen
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Malan will bat at 3 and Bess will carry drinks until there is a spinning wicket available to bowl on.
Root will stay at 4 because he wants to and Bairstow go to 5.
Bess will play, England won't go into a test without a front line spinner
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Hahaha
Clueless yet again. England will easily win at home so we can read nothing into the summer performances anyway. Shame.. ECB miss yet another chance to change things.
A lot of county red ball players will be thinking ‘what’s the point’.. might as well go play hit and giggle
Agree having watched Pakastan v Ireland regardless of who they pick from the names being banded around
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1 things for sure Rajastan are going to be pissed - losing Butler for the end of the IPL they wouldn't have thought that would happen
Hang on a minute. Large amounts of money involved?
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According to Aggers on Twitter Root has confirmed he’ll bat 3...
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England v Pakistan: Jos Buttler & Dominic Bess named in squad for first Test - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44105904 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44105904)
BBC seem to think the top 7 is set.
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This is a bit of an odd selection really.
If you look at the issues we had this winter, unstable opening pair was one. Shaky number 3 Root, Malan, Stokes (when he played), Bairstow was ok then we had issues with zero penetration with the bowling and no variation.
So to solve the issue they drop Vince and take Buttler and leave the bowling as is.
This is the ECB so it inevitability makes no sense.
We need variation. Plus if we pick Bess as an off spin bowler a left arm quick is helpful to provide rough. Now the Paks have two lefties so that will help Bess, but humm.
Stoneman is out of form, Jennings and Gubbins are in great form.
Pick both, put Cook at 3 and Root back to 4.
I realise Buttler is wonderfully talented, but his selection is an insult to Vince, Jennings, Gubbins, Hildreth and any number of other pros.
As for the bowling 4 right arm fast medium is daft. Plus Stokes. Pick Sam Curran. He is good enough.
I feel really frustrated by this squad as it fails to take into the account our winter
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Yes totally agree it's a bit odd, and not just because some of us in our team selection were way out. I think it was @six and out the other day who posted, new selectors, you really don't know what might happen
This looks like it's a case of new selection making a mark, but is it the right thinking.....
Bess I can understand with leach injured and Ali lacking form and confidence.
If I was Foakes I might be thinking why play county cricket.
If you are going to drop Vince to me it would make more sense if butler keeps, Malan to 3 and Bairstow as a specialist batsman.
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An odd selection no doubt but I quite like the Buttler call, he’s a box office cricketer and he won’t play enough official red ball Cricket to get in the side but he is crushing it against the best in the world in a different format - at 7 he might just get away with it! I hope for fireworks
England do need a spinner but with Ali out of form, leach injured. The cupboard is pretty bare. Bess and Virdi both have potential but probably aren’t ready so having them around the group makes sense and if there is a Bunsen chuck them in.
Gubbins runs are great but aren’t really as valuable in Div two compared to Buttler’s in Ipl however with stonemans form he had a great shout
I love James Vince but one of him and stoneman had to go. I’m not convinced (get it) they made the right choice
Progressive and hopefully a move toward more quick scoring Cricket
And just for giggles - my left field XI
1. Cook
2. Bairstow
3. Malan/Stokes
4. Root
5. Stokes/Malan
6. Foakes (gloves)
7. Butter
8. Woakes/spinner
9 Wood/Spinner
10. Broad
11. Anderson
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Some good observations here from @Buzz and @Mpt7
Realistically, both Stoneman and Vince were not going to survive. There is an argument neither should have - but if one goes, Vince, having made runs all English season, would have expected to survive over Stoneman, who looks like a walking wicket at the moment. I can only assume that the thought process was "we can find another three, we can't rebalance what we have to cover the opening slot". Could Vince have opened? Was Buttler that essential? Both valid questions - I think the sad thing is that a day after Vince finally played the kind of innings we've all wished he had the fortitude to play, they have effectively ended his Test career.
Buttler is odd for another reason. I can't see them fielding him with Bess, Broad, Wood, Anderson behind him, so Woakes almost has to play despite being the natural reserve. And thus we end up back at right arm trundle....
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It's a mess. It's a mess whoever they pick.
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OK so I’ve read through all the other posts - I deliberately don’t read too much so I am not influenced by other opinions (you can be persuasive!) however, one this has peaked my interest...
-Picking someone based on County championships runs-
A number of players have scored a lot of runs and had average tests returns. Others have been average a CC but performed well. Are we correct to believe that runs in CC are a direct indicator for success in the test arena?
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A middle-order of Bairstow/Stokes/Buttler looks pretty exciting to me...On the other hand not impressed with the bowling unit at all.
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A middle-order of Bairstow/Stokes/Buttler looks pretty exciting to me...On the other hand not impressed with the bowling unit at all.
Exciting isn’t what you want in TEST cricket. You want consistent runs and the ability to adapt to the situation
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OK so I’ve read through all the other posts - I deliberately don’t read too much so I am not influenced by other opinions (you can be persuasive!) however, one this has peaked my interest...
-Picking someone based on County championships runs-
A number of players have scored a lot of runs and had average tests returns. Others have been average a CC but performed well. Are we correct to believe that runs in CC are a direct indicator for success in the test arena?
Difficult this one - Duncan Fletcher had a run of success picking on hunches - Vaughan had the defence of playing at the old Headingley, Banger, Jones, Jones and even Hoggard less so.
Standards have improved. By and large now, the best players score division one runs. Some, like Gary Ballance, can do that and nauseum, but have on off test records, but it is a long time since there was a player not scoring at that level achieving in test cricket.
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Exciting isn’t what you want in TEST cricket. You want consistent runs and the ability to adapt to the situation
Which both bairstow and stokes have done in the past
As has buttler (in India last time he played)
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For the pedants, I know Hoggard pplayrdvat Headingley. Different for seamers.
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Which both bairstow and stokes have done in the past
As has buttler (in India last time he played)
Um ok. Sure.. no issues with England’s batting for the last 12-18months then no?
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Um ok. Sure.. no issues with England’s batting for the last 12-18months then no?
I’m not saying they’ve done it consistently but all 3 have shown they can knuckle down when needed
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I’m not saying they’ve done it consistently but all 3 have shown they can knuckle down when needed
Westerly has a ton at test level.. does that make him good enough to be England’s opener? He’s done it once, shown he can etc etc
Sure theyn’can’ but they don’t so why keep picking and blindly hoping for improvement ? Meh, either way PK will be slaughtered regardless of who England pick. Barely beat Ireland
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I think that’s quite a disservice to Ireland tbh who I thought we good except first innings batting
Been thinking about it and I quite like the squad would have taken Curran s over wood but it’s shown different thinking for once
Also what’s wrong with giving people a chance after a while out of the team? Yes I’d rather it be someone who ha scores runs in county cricket,
If vince was kicked you’d be moaning as he hasn’t proved it at test level...
I don’t think you’ve said who you’d kick yet just moaned that white ball cricket is killing test matches.... what would be your eleven?
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Westerly has a ton at test level.. does that make him good enough to be England’s opener? He’s done it once, shown he can etc etc
Sure theyn’can’ but they don’t so why keep picking and blindly hoping for improvement ? Meh, either way PK will be slaughtered regardless of who England pick. Barely beat Ireland
Yes Pakistan are rebuilding they have a young inexperience batting lineup struggled at against the medium pace of Rankin and co on a greenish pitch both Pakistan and Ireland's bowling looked ordenary if it swings at Lords Can see Anderson causing havoc.
England to win the series with inflated averages
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A point missed, I think: Joe Root effectively dropped Vince by deciding that he'll bat 3.
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A point missed, I think: Joe Root effectively dropped Vince by deciding that he'll bat 3.
Not really.
Ed Smith said how do we fit in Jos Buttler and this was the answer.
Vince could bat at 4
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Not really.
Ed Smith said how do we fit in Jos Buttler and this was the answer.
Vince could bat at 4
Smith also said they wanted to move Bairstow up to 5 though, so someone had to go to make room. Unless you were going to play a specialist batsman at 7, but surely noone would do that in test matches...
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Well quite the team is a bit bonkers with Jos at 7. Jos is a 6, but so is Stokes. Bairstow is a 4 but wants to keep so is at 5. Malan is a 5 but Bairstow so is 4. Root should be at 3, but prefers 4. So a compromise has been reached.
Cook is probably finished, but has 10,000 test runs so is unstoppable. Stoneman is in horrible form...
And then there is the bowling as I mentioned previously.
Honestly they need to look much more objectively at the team direction and have a coherent strategy.
Under Strauss and Flower you have that.
Under Root and Bayliss we don't
Cook didn't have a plan either other than give the ball to Swann and Anderson. (Similar worked for Ponting...!)
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Agree Root/Bayliss seem to have no idea how they want the team to play, hence usually just trying to pack it with all-rounders to give plenty of options and hoping for the best. Someone needs to sort Tim Bresnan out a bionic elbow, or perhaps more realistically hope that Ryan Sidebottom really rubs off on Sam Curran.
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Jonathan Agnew is unusually positive on the BBC website. Perhaps because Ed Smith is his TMS chum.
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Quite all chummy for your mates.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44199006 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44199006)
interesting from Buttler!
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Jonathan Agnew is unusually positive on the BBC website. Perhaps because Ed Smith is his TMS chum.
Jobs for the boys, how do you think Smith ended up with the job
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Should be as easy a series win at home in recent times. Pakistan don't have any top class players
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Can't wait for Buttler to score 23 (9)
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Should be as easy a series win at home in recent times. Pakistan don't have any top class players
didn't really happen last time though
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Should be as easy a series win at home in recent times. Pakistan don't have any top class players
Would agree, so so batting mine up but haven't replaced Mishab and Younis, bowling might go ok but can't see them getting the runs on the board to win a test.
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Should be as easy a series win at home in recent times. Pakistan don't have any top class players
What a load of tosh.
Their bowling will be quite good enough for our batters.
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What a load of tosh.
Their bowling will be quite good enough for our batters.
Their bowling line up is potentially good, but no more than that. I’m just not sure they’ll get enough runs on the board for them to bowl at.
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Pakistan's bowling is whack. Nothing more nothing less. Amir isn't the bowler he was prior he corrupted himself. Abbas is like a second division county truddler. Shadab is a hyped up second rate spinner. We should pile up 500+ easily against this kind of bowling
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What a load of tosh.
Their bowling will be quite good enough for our batters.
Joe will hammer a couple of 150s. Mark my words
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Tabloid stuff these posts.
England are not that good, we really aren't. Someone sensible on here pre Ashes posted 'England are just average' I read that back then and thought, hang on that's my team! He was dead right thou, comfortably beaten in Oz and then outplayed by NZ who just proved in similar conditions to ours, they were the better side.
I don't know what to make of Pakistan we might do well, then again early season they might do well.
To work out if England are a good side,a great side,or just average work out how many players we have that are world class.
It's a pretty short list. England have a huge amount of work to do before we are a decent side I think.
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This England team isn’t very good and is very fragile batting wise. However, Pakistan are worse so I’m expecting nothing other than a easy England set of wins.. maybe one collapse by England but they’ll pile up the runs easily enough
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What a load of tosh.
Their bowling will be quite good enough for our batters.
Against Ireland Pakistans bowling was pretty average amir look quick at times but how fit is he.
Pakistan played with Plenty of enthusiasm but can they do it on the the big stage
Batting is also mainly unproven.
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Tabloid stuff these posts.
England are not that good, we really aren't. Someone sensible on here pre Ashes posted 'England are just average' I read that back then and thought, hang on that's my team! He was dead right thou, comfortably beaten in Oz and then outplayed by NZ who just proved in similar conditions to ours, they were the better side.
I don't know what to make of Pakistan we might do well, then again early season they might do well.
To work out if England are a good side,a great side,or just average work out how many players we have that are world class.
It's a pretty short list. England have a huge amount of work to do before we are a decent side I think.
England playing in the the UK are a different team
still a large amount of work to do but this series will tell us little or nothing
Easy pickings with both bat and ball for England regardless of who is selected
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Shadab is a hyped up second rate spinner. We should pile up 500+ easily against this kind of bowling
Aren't "second rate leg spinners" England's Achilles heal though??
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Aren't "second rate leg spinners" England's Achilles heal though??
Any spin, first rate, second rate or lollipop standard is usually an Achilles heal for us... :(
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looks like Bess is going to play..... so between Woakes and Wood for the last bowling spot..... personally i hope they go with Wood, i would just like to see a different attack.
Root also talks about him at 3 being long term now he has more experience as captain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44223609 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44223609)
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looks like Bess is going to play..... so between Woakes and Wood for the last bowling spot..... personally i hope they go with Wood, i would just like to see a different attack.
Root also talks about him at 3 being long term now he has more experience as captain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44223609 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44223609)
What does wood offer ? Don’t say ‘extra pace’.. he’s not been close to 90 for ages now
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What does wood offer ? Don’t say ‘extra pace’.. he’s not been close to 90 for ages now
Not saying he is... Not saying I would have picked him in the 1st place either but now only him and woakes to choose from.
He is just something different to woakes who offers the same RA fast medium that anderson and broad offer.
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Think 1-1 is most likely.. neither team is strong enough
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Not saying he is... Not saying I would have picked him in the 1st place either but now only him and woakes to choose from.
He is just something different to woakes who offers the same RA fast medium that anderson and broad offer.
How so, he's a right arm fast medium bowler, the only difference is his wierd run up.
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Whisper it quietly... Woakes is faster than Wood.
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How so, he's a right arm fast medium bowler, the only difference is his wierd run up.
Wood bowls different lengths and has a different shape to has bowling. Woakes like Anderson and Broad are all pitch it up and shape it away.
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Wood bowls different lengths and has a different shape to has bowling. Woakes like Anderson and Broad are all pitch it up and shape it away.
This is the right answer, nothing to do with pace or what hand they bowl with. All three excellent bowlers, all three swing/seam merchants who mainly try and take it away and bring the odd one back in - realistically we only want two of those at most. On the other hand, Wood's test record is underwhelming at best!
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This is the right answer, nothing to do with pace or what hand they bowl with. All three excellent bowlers, all three swing/seam merchants who mainly try and take it away and bring the odd one back in - realistically we only want two of those at most. On the other hand, Wood's test record is underwhelming at best!
As I said before I wouldn't have Wood in the squad in the 1st place.
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Wood at times has been genuinely quick, but over 5 days I think most of the forum is right, there's not much between wood and woakes pace wise. On a flat deck like the matches I watched last time Pakistan were over, yes our bowling looked ordinary..
Michael Vaughan seems to want wood on just for a change, to have something to talk about.
Short of having a left armer like Wiley or topley when fit, or Carter if he progresses we don't have a lot of choice
I think myself Leach is a good bet as he is left arm a d seems pretty good, but we are searching for some variety...we might not need it in the next month but we will when we are away.
The selectors have a hard job sometimes,you can't pick someone just because they have a different bowling action, they have got to be good enough.
Woakes for me out of the two, Wood does not offer enough of a difference.
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. Woakes like Anderson and Broad are all pitch it up and shape it away.
F*ck me, I wish Broad and Jimmy would pitch it up more instead of this ‘back of a length ‘ sh*t. They might be a bit more effective. I shall be heckling tomorrow if they can’t hit a length!!!😡
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Post lunch I feel some of the members could be woken up by our grass roots representative Brucie.
Get in there
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I’m gonna be on the telly - whether it’s verbal abuse, a crowd catch or a streak in front of the members!
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#MembersInFrontOfMembers
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Only 2 tests is a disappointment
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Trying to look for Stoneman's form
(https://i.imgur.com/TAAHbv9.jpg)
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its in 2017....
shame as i thought his first few balls his feet were moving much better especially for that push through point to get off the mark
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I wonder how long they persist with stoneman for maybe this series and then if his form hasn't changed you have to look at the likes of burns, gubbins or even Jennings again
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Jennings was the form pick for me.
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Long tail with Bess at eight.
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Don't think even James Vince would have had a drive at that
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Don't think even James Vince would have had a drive at that
He'd have nailed it, form he's in. ;)
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down to Jonny again then!
who thinks we should have bowled!?
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Hope a few people on here perhaps reviewing their england will pile up the runs posts
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Cook looks set unlike he did in Aus he's getting that big stride in no 90 MPH bowling to stop him
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Root out chasing a wide ball not in control of the shot.
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Any particular reason for the black grips being used?
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50 for cook
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^ Good!
Cook needs to score runs and break records. That's all he should think about.
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^ Good!
Cook needs to score runs and break records. That's all he should think about.
If he's only playing to break records he should retire!
He should focus on scoring runs to help England win games, not personal milestones
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Decent nut from Amir to remove Cook there
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time for jos to prove everyone wrong!
at least we can use this score from cook when people are saying he hasnt had a score for ages... everyone seems to discount the biggies!
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Pakistan's bowling is whack. Nothing more nothing less. Amir isn't the bowler he was prior he corrupted himself. Abbas is like a second division county truddler. Shadab is a hyped up second rate spinner. We should pile up 500+ easily against this kind of bowling
only 350 left to get..
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only 350 left to get..
:(
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What is it with Cook and jaffas
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Gotta wonder how Amir's career would panned out but for that aberration back in 2010. The pre ban Amir was a quite sensational bowler and for my money better than new favour of the month Rabada. Almost sad seeing what happened to Amir...almost
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Jos out of the traps early then, striking them at 157!
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Something about Jos in whites that just doesn't look right!
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Oh dear...
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The England Test Team: Where we always ask more questions instead of providing answers.
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Both Buttler and Stokes gone in a space of a few balls. Not looking good.
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New faces, same old collapses...
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Pathetic batting display aside from Cook. Outside off and we can't help but edge it
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Pakistan's Darren Stevens making us look like fools
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there was a lot of complacency around this bowling attack. they're obviously pretty damn good.
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Not sure how many times I can reiterate that Broad should be batting at 11, if not lower.
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there was a lot of complacency around this bowling attack. they're obviously pretty damn good.
Decent attack for the conditions on offer.
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Absolutely shambolic
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lets not judge until both sides have batted!
however... that was krap
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Root got it wrong never a pitch to bat first on what was he thinking green wicket and overcast ideal for Anderson.
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England will still win the Test match as the Pakistanis are inexperienced.
But this really shows how poor the current team is in home conditions.
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Azhar can't bat.
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Azhar can't bat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUS6hAiQxaE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUS6hAiQxaE)
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Jos Buttler was a terrible selection and the tail is way too long with Bess at 8. None of which excuses the frontline batsmen.
Root should step down as captain if things don't improve soon.
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Mark Wood lacks the skill and heart required for Test cricket. The speed gun says 89mph but he can't swing it and he's literally got no intimidation factor at all.
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Root should focus on scoring runs and breaking records. Leave captaincy to Stokes who is a natural fighter.
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The England team of the 90's get loads of stick, but not many of this team would get in to it on current form!
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Woakes gives us a bit of a blanket at number 8 especially as Ali has bailed us out with lower order runs over the last couple of years so without him our tail is too long
You simply cannot get under 200 in a test and hope to compete
Pakistan are 50-1 playing watchful cricket and credit to them
But we are not a very good side at the moment
We are being outplayed by an inexperienced team in our conditions
That is the worst thing
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Dare I suggest today was a day for a Chris Woakes type cricketer?
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What a load of tosh.
Their bowling will be quite good enough for our batters.
Yup.
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Woakes gives us a bit of a blanket at number 8 especially as Ali has bailed us out with lower order runs over the last couple of years so without him our tail is too long
You simply cannot get under 200 in a test and hope to compete
Pakistan are 50-1 playing watchful cricket and credit to them
But we are not a very good side at the moment
We are being outplayed by an inexperienced team in our conditions
That is the worst thing
Dare I suggest today was a day for a Chris Woakes type cricketer?
Yep. As the saying goes, you never know what you've got until it's gone ;)
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Vince should have played. Was one game away from a big score.
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Mark Wood lacks the skill and heart required for Test cricket. The speed gun says 89mph but he can't swing it and he's literally got no intimidation factor at all.
Rubbish! I was there today and Wood looked more threatening than Broad or Stokes. Broad might’ve got the wicket, but I reckon only 10% of what he bowled needed to be played at, whereas Wood bowled a lot straighter.
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Dare I suggest today was a day for a Chris Woakes type cricketer?
Fully agree, I think he understands the whole concept of test match cricket. Not sure that many others do
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England have changed pretty much everything since the winter except the coach
Time for Bayliss to go!
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Rubbish! I was there today and Wood looked more threatening than Broad or Stokes. Broad might’ve got the wicket, but I reckon only 10% of what he bowled needed to be played at, whereas Wood bowled a lot straighter.
I wasn't at Lord's today but I would agree that Wood always looks more of a danger when I have seen him bowl in person. I also don't like the fascination with the speed gun. Wood has a really unusual action of the type that batsmen struggle to pick up and therefore have less time to play. There will always be bowlers who register well on the speed gun but have actions that make it easier for the batsman to pick and therefore have more time to play.
Woakes hasn't been anywhere near his best since the torn muscle he picked up earlier last season. One hopes that it hasn't permanently limited his performance but he has been a shadow of the bowler he was in red ball cricket since picking up the injury
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I am '23:25 at night after a crap day at work' annoyed that Root has now decided that 3 is his spot at the expense of Vince. On the very tough trip to Australasia -
Root : "4's my position, get the noob to bat at three"
Back at home : "on yer bike Vince, you've had yer chance"
"but even Ricky Ponting had a run at 6, 5 and 4"
"Don't care son, we're English cricket selectors, and we're thick as pigshit"
An equally unfair thing happened to Michael Carberry. Averaged around 30 on the tour from hell which was 3rd best in the England team, and then gets dropped. And how many openers have we had since?
Yes I am a Hampshire fan so am biased with these two, but all the same...
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Root's batting 3 because of the prolonged failure of Vince, not at his expense... As for Carberry, bloke batted out of his skin to average 30 - looked out of his depth throughout.
As for our batting in this game, deckchairs/titanic etc etc. Poor Stoneman looks worse every game he plays, Root's not all that good at 3, Bairstow isn't all that good at 5, and a specialist no7 batsman is still a crap idea... Be amazed if more than 3 of the top 7 are in the same position by the end of the summer.
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Agree entirely. Vince hasn't been sacrificed so that Root can bat at 3 - Root is sacrificing himself because Vince failed at 3.
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Interesting stat I read on the BBC -
Pakistan's XI for this match has more days of first-class cricket between them this summer than England's - 126 to England's 82
In this day and age around bad prep for touring sides that has to be commended. There preparations really showed in the way they bowled yesterday.
However I must say that stat is also very concerning considering that out of our 82 days Bess and Cook must have quite a few of those.
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Dare I suggest today was a day for a Chris Woakes type cricketer?
Woakes arrived back in England last week after spending most of the last 6 weeks travelling around India and after being left out of Kolis team sat on the RCB bench.
Not good preparation for any type of test cricketer.
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Woakes arrived back in England last week after spending most of the last 6 weeks travelling around India and after being left out of Kolis team sat on the RCB bench.
Not good preparation for any type of test cricketer.
That doesn’t change the fact we could have done with a woakes TYPE of cricket as @Bats_Entertainment suggested
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Woakes arrived back in England last week after spending most of the last 6 weeks travelling around India and after being left out of Kolis team sat on the RCB bench.
Not good preparation for any type of test cricketer.
To be fair, with the exception of one 2nd division game against Derbyshire, Mark Wood has spent the last couple of months doing much the same.
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We can say what we like about Woakes at the end of the day it was our batting and top order that let us down again...... Root won the toss and batted..... therefore you expect to put at least 350 on the board, and yet again we didn't.
If we had picked Woakes he would be in the side predominantly for his bowling, he would have been batting at 8 and would have could in at 168-6. Maybe he might have got a few more after that and put on a partnership with Buttler..... but who knows, one thing i do know is even with Woakes in the team our top 7 are the same and did rubbish again!
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That doesn’t change the fact we could have done with a woakes TYPE of cricket as @Bats_Entertainment suggested
Okay name one
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Okay name one
Chris Woakes.
For all the complaints we may have about him, he is very Chris Woakes-ish
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Okay name one
Craig Overton
Tom Curran
Sam Curran
all bowling all rounders,
overton showed he could dig in over the winter, the currans have both done it for surrey with sam obviously the better bat
woakes is still by far the best woakes style player we have but there are options!
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Craig Overton
Tom Curran
Sam Curran
all bowling all rounders,
overton showed he could dig in over the winter, the currans have both done it for surrey with sam obviously the better bat
woakes is still by far the best woakes style player we have but there are options!
Thought Overton was England's best bowler at times in Auz and NZ
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Oh dear...
It could only be Pakistan, couldn't it :(
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-5768541/Pakistan-face-ICC-sanctions-wearing-banned-Apple-watches-against-England.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-5768541/Pakistan-face-ICC-sanctions-wearing-banned-Apple-watches-against-England.html)
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This is all a bit dire
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Eng-Pak Test cricket is always so enthralling - really needs a 5 match series !
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Lovely delivery from Wood, angled in and just straightening off the seam.
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England have bowled well just can't get the breakthrough
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Pak can still lose this, but so far it has been a remarkable performance. Bowled like champs, and then to come out and blunt one of the all time greats of swing bowling, in swinging conditions, has been excellent.
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That's what you call a throat ball from Ben to Shafik
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Pak can still lose this, but so far it has been a remarkable performance. Bowled like champs, and then to come out and blunt one of the all time greats of swing bowling, in swinging conditions, has been excellent.
For me though England have bowled to short and the swing was easy to spot or to full and were driven where as Pakistan bowled the perfect length for the track.
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They have indeed your right
But our problem lie in the batting, it's Groundhog Day, we don't give enough runs for our bowlers to work with.
I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest. Maybe something radical needs to happen to change the team.
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Sarfaraz won't be a captain for long for Pakistan. Terrible judgement as a batsman! No runs.
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shaping up to be a nail biting finish
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^ All England bowlers have to do is get their length right. Stokes can bowl quick and his throat ball is pretty good. Either way, it will be a one sided match in the second inning.
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forget about the players, the fact is we have no-one better coming through, this has been the case for the past few years,
I heard the interview with Andy flower about playing championship cricket at certain time of the year he is correct - however again that is what we have.
one thing is hardly mentioned and I'm really starting to think it isn't actually the players we have (i like the side out at the minute) but its the coaching staff, Trevor Bayliss is a wonderful one day cricket coach, we have gone backward (pre Andy flower backwards) since he took over, yes the one day/T20 has improved but the test just hasn't
Mr. Bayliss its time to go!
who should replace him i dont know but (yes im a notts fan) but i really think Mick Newell would do a good job either that or Alec Stewart
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Annndddddd...Stokes claims another scalp or a wrist.
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England would fare so much better under a Stokes captaincy.
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Nasty blow to Babers wrist probably requires an X-ray also a lesson on why you shouldn't take our eyes off the ball
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forget about the players, the fact is we have no-one better coming through, this has been the case for the past few years,
I heard the interview with Andy flower about playing championship cricket at certain time of the year he is correct - however again that is what we have.
one thing is hardly mentioned and I'm really starting to think it isn't actually the players we have (i like the side out at the minute) but its the coaching staff, Trevor Bayliss is a wonderful one day cricket coach, we have gone backward (pre Andy flower backwards) since he took over, yes the one day/T20 has improved but the test just hasn't
Mr. Bayliss its time to go!
who should replace him i dont know but (yes im a notts fan) but i really think Mick Newell would do a good job either that or Alec Stewart
It’s got f all to do with the coaches once they get into the international set up. By that point a players technique and crucially, mindset is already grooved and ingrained.
Simple truth is when you play too much limited overs stuff you will develop a technique and/or mentality for that.. only a rare few can play white ball and red ball now (given white ball now is so far removed from what it was years ago, past players are not a guide).
Root is a fine payer but has a problem vs the moving ball and nicking off.. why? Can only be because he can’t resist playing shots which is a result of white ball mentality. Buttler, white ball technique and mentality.. again, can’t resist a shot and can’t resist the moving ball.
You can go on will literally every player in the England side other than Cook who is the only one who is prepared to play red ball.
It is what is is though, you can’t ask a player once they are at that stage of their career to suddenly change., just like in amateur cricket someone who just hits out can’t usually dig in .. they simply struggle to be able to control themselves.. (same goes for when they ask someone like hameed to ‘expand his game’..yep, screws him up)
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Rather embarrassing bowling performance from England so far, gloomy humid conditions throughout pakistan’s Batting and they’ve not knocked them over yet.
Credit to pakistan’s Batsmen, they’ve left well and been patient. A lead of 150-160 would be handy
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It’s got f all to do with the coaches once they get into the international set up. By that point a players technique and crucially, mindset is already grooved and ingrained.
Simple truth is when you play too much limited overs stuff you will develop a technique and/or mentality for that.. only a rare few can play white ball and red ball now (given white ball now is so far removed from what it was years ago, past players are not a guide).
Root is a fine payer but has a problem vs the moving ball and nicking off.. why? Can only be because he can’t resist playing shots which is a result of white ball mentality. Buttler, white ball technique and mentality.. again, can’t resist a shot and can’t resist the moving ball.
You can go on will literally every player in the England side other than Cook who is the only one who is prepared to play red ball.
It is what is is though, you can’t ask a player once they are at that stage of their career to suddenly change., just like in amateur cricket someone who just hits out can’t usually dig in .. they simply struggle to be able to control themselves.. (same goes for when they ask someone like hameed to ‘expand his game’..yep, screws him up)
I would disagree, the coaches will come up with game plans set out how they want to go about things, they also work on players games! If they’re not making the changes needed or they don’t think changes need to happen they’re not doing their job! Their. It payed to say how good everyone is all the time
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Bayliss was brought in for his one day record, to win us a major trophy in limited overs cricket.
We have improved massively in 2-3 years in that form of the game,in tests it looks to me like we have gone, and are going, backwards.....
Def agree we others on here the quality of players is just short for the longer form of the game.
In the last couple of years we have tried quite a lot of players, especially top order batsmen.
It hurts not to see England don't well, or not improving, but the money is in limited overs,do those at the top really care about test matches?
It's a good job we got Stokes, another wicket for him, Cook,Root, Bairstow and Anderson.
But really.....half a team at t that great :)
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I would disagree, the coaches will come up with game plans set out how they want to go about things, they also work on players games! If they’re not making the changes needed or they don’t think changes need to happen they’re not doing their job! Their. It payed to say how good everyone is all the time
Game plans are easy.. ‘hey Jos, take your time mate.. wait for the bad ball.. bt time.. ‘
Jos
‘ oh wide full ish ball I’ll go at that’
Oppos
Sadly, players need the ability to think for themselves and be disciplined.. which, as we see time and time again, this group isn’t capable of. Hence why, there isn’t a coach around who can turn these players in to test players.
It is what it is. Time to accept it
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Last year i had the pleasure of training with Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq when they were practicing for the test series against SL. The guys had a big marble slab put in the middle of the pitch and had grant flower and us throw balls at the slab using the side arm and all they did for 2 hours was defend what was on their body/stumps and leave/duck anything that wasnt.
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Game plans are easy.. ‘hey Jos, take your time mate.. wait for the bad ball.. bt time.. ‘
Jos
‘ oh wide full ish ball I’ll go at that’
Oppos
Sadly, players need the ability to think for themselves and be disciplined.. which, as we see time and time again, this group isn’t capable of. Hence why, there isn’t a coach around who can turn these players in to test players.
It is what it is. Time to accept it
I think it is a % of both player mentality and coaching. With perhaps 85% laying with the player.
What I can't get away from when we talk about how they are now playing all this white ball cricket and it effects their test match batting loads etc... look at the Pakistan side they are in the same boat... 6/7 of their team played in the Champions Trophy win last year and they all play in the PSL. Babar Azam is ranked no1 batter in T20 and look at the innings he played yesterday!
You can do both you just need to apply yourself!
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Azam out of the tour with a fractured wrist
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Yesterday England bowled better without luck on another day balls would have hit the edge of the bat that said England failed to take the catches offered
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Yesterday England bowled better without luck on another day balls would have hit the edge of the bat that said England failed to take the catches offered
I’ve heard that excuse quite a bit - heard it in the ashes too. England passed the bat without any luck
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Root is under the lid again like yesterday!
Can someone please explain to me why the captain is under the lid??
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Pakistan ended up with a 179 run lead.
Cook gone for 1, 1-1. Abbas gets him
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I hate this team.
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Pakistan's bowling is whack. Nothing more nothing less. Amir isn't the bowler he was prior he corrupted himself. Abbas is like a second division county truddler. Shadab is a hyped up second rate spinner. We should pile up 500+ easily against this kind of bowling
What a stupid comment. First make 200 and then dream about 500. Abbas is Pakistans best seamer in tests and if he gets conditions like this he would have better stats then Broad and Anderson. He has played on UAE pitches so far in tests and in first class on Pakistan pitches and check his stats. He a top class seamer.
Pakistan's bowling is well ahead of England.
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What a stupid comment. First make 200 and then dream about 500. Abbas is Pakistans best seamer in tests and if he gets conditions like this he would have better stats then Broad and Anderson. He has played on UAE pitches so far in tests and in first class on Pakistan pitches and check his stats. He a top class seamer.
Pakistan's bowling is well ahead of England.
Better bowling attack behave. Had Root bowled first Pakistan wouldn't have made 50
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Better bowling attack behave. Had Root bowled first Pakistan wouldn't have made 50
Clearly a delusional fan speaking
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Better bowling attack behave. Had Root bowled first Pakistan wouldn't have made 50
I think Amir alone would have made 50. Conditions ain't changed much. Maybe the first session on the first day was abit advantage. But we seen how England bowlers did against a very inexperienced Pakistan batting line up on good bowling conditions.
Abbas over Anderson and Broad. He showed them how to bowl in their own conditions.
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I think Amir alone would have made 50. Conditions ain't changed much. Maybe the first session on the first day was abit advantage. But we seen how England bowlers did against a very inexperienced Pakistan batting line up on good bowling conditions.
Abbas over Anderson and Broad. He showed them how to bowl in their own conditions.
Pakistan have so far outbowled out batted and out fielded England but Root got it wrong batting first on a greenish pitch in the warm overcast conditions which were much improved for batting by the time Pakistan had a bat.
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Sensational catch by Sarfaraz to snare Malan. Forget batting and bowling Pakistan can catch whereas we can't
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Sensational catch by Sarfaraz to snare Malan. Forget batting and bowling Pakistan can catch whereas we can't
The whack bowlers making England batsmens look like fools. Second rate spinner gets a wicket too.
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Last year i had the pleasure of training with Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq when they were practicing for the test series against SL. The guys had a big marble slab put in the middle of the pitch and had grant flower and us throw balls at the slab using the side arm and all they did for 2 hours was defend what was on their body/stumps and leave/duck anything that wasnt.
Alas, if only Babar Azam had joined them in these drills, his wrist would still be intact. :(
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Stokes has a lot of fire in him. He can pull the game along in England's direction.
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This team can get fecked. Absolutely pathetic.
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Pakistan's bowling is whack. Nothing more nothing less. Amir isn't the bowler he was prior he corrupted himself. Abbas is like a second division county truddler. Shadab is a hyped up second rate spinner. We should pile up 500+ easily against this kind of bowling
Second division trundler making your legends look like fools :-)
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Why can young Joe not convert fifties to centuries anymore? You see Kohli and Smith get hundred after hundred yet young Joe get half way and gets out...
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Second division trundler making your legends look like fools :-)
He certainly is...
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We have a lead....... and we only need 9 wickets....... easy victory this........
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And 50 for Jos the boss(of white ball cricket) Buttler
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100 partnership for Buttler and Bess
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Buttler and Bess are both playing their first red ball matches of the English summer as far as I can tell.
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Some mighty fine cricket by untapped English talent!
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Buttler and Bess are both playing their first red ball matches of the English summer as far as I can tell.
No, Bess has played a couple. Has only taken 1 wicket.
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Why can young Joe not convert fifties to centuries anymore? You see Kohli and Smith get hundred after hundred yet young Joe get half way and gets out...
And to top it off probably the worst Captain in test cricket at the moment
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Pressure of captaincy getting to root. Making wrong decisions at the toss, then sticking himself under the lid and unable to convert scores
Not in the same class bracket as Kohli and smith
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Pressure of captaincy getting to root. Making wrong decisions at the toss, then sticking himself under the lid and unable to convert scores
Not in the same class bracket as Kohli and smith
That's it for me. Getting the captaincy effects your game massively and it can only go in 1 of 2 directions. In Kohli and Smiths cases they have thrived and their game went up, unfortunately for us and Joe he has gone in the other direction.
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No, Bess has played a couple. Has only taken 1 wicket.
And scored 90 against Essex
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Root gets a lot of stick for his conversion ratio. And rightly so. If it was higher he’d be one of the greats. And as we know big scoresnwin matches.
But the fact he still averages 52 in tests with that poor conversion ratio, shows he’s still regular scoring runs for England and rarely fails.
Williamson averages 50 with a better conversion ratio. Which means he has had a lot more low score innings than root.
Kohli only has an average of one more than root, yet a supreme conversion ratio. So again he has a lot more low scores(probably all in England.
Let’s look at there scores of 50 plus.
Root 53 in 125 innings
Kohli 37 in 112 innings
Williamson 44 in 116 innings.
Kohli can get 50plus in everyone of his innings and still not match root.
Williamson can match root if he scores 50 plus in every innings.
Does that all mean anything? Well yeah, it means roots stillperofrming even if he doesn’t go big, and he will still be First on England’s team sheet every game.
If only we could find one or two more batsman with the record root has.
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I think we need a surgical knife to move forward, it probably won't happen but Root is not a captain. The way he was handed it as some sort of inheritance was ECB all over. Wrong man at the wrong time and it's not going to work.
Not all player thrive under the captaincy as has been pointed out.
I like the comparisons with kholi and Williamson and smith. To me Root is the best batsman I've seen in England colours since Pieterson and Gooch for sheer ability.
The first thing we need whatever happens in this current match is how do we get the best out of the 11 and then sort out who skippers it.
I don't mind playing Butler at all, he should of been in years ago, but if he plays surely he keeps? As edge pointed out specialist number 7 is an odd position.....
Bairstow as a specialist , butler keeps and we do now need another opener, I like Stoneman but he is out of form early season and it's better to pull him out of the firing line, if he gets dropped it will be hard to come back so a Young guy probably-Jennings who England want back, Gubbins of Middlesex has a case too.
That what I think ! :)
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As far as I'm aware Root's 53 fifty+ scores in 125 innings is the second best after Bradman. And it's all good and well saying Root gets loads of fifties, but in an underperforming side, the best player has to be getting hundreds. Getting to fifty means Root don't all the work yet can't find the mental capacity to kick on
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Okay so whats the minimum lead England need to win on that track with Pakistan a batter down 200 and it's game on
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175 and England have a chance - I can see a few Pak brain fades once the pressures on
Don’t see England surviving too long though - new ball due in 2 overs
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Root , most agree , isnt well suited to the captaincy. .....but who else is a standout candidate ? No one other than Stokes and Bairstow for me , although both need/deserve more time to just concentrate on their games . Perhaps it wouldn't be the worst idea to give Jimmy the captaincy for a year or two (basically , untill he retires) in caretaker type role until someone else is ready ?
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Bugger....i was hoping to see Buttler and Bess both make hundreds . I think eng need a lead of at least 250 , ideally 300 , because the pitch looks pretty flat/good.
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Wood playing through the offside reminds me of Vince .....but all in all hes probably as good or better ! :) ;) :D
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Wood playing through the offside reminds me of Vince .....but all in all hes probably as good or better ! :) ;) :D
Plant the front foot, let the top elbow collapse and compensate by throwing your hands at it? And get out next over? :D
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Delighted that this performance from Bess won't paper over the cracks how awful this team is.
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Why does broad even bother putting pads on these days???
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Plant the front foot, let the top elbow collapse and compensate by throwing your hands at it? And get out next over?
Yeah , see , he does remind me of Vince ! :D :D
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3 quick wickets removed any slim chance of getting 100 lead.
Pakistan have played better than us for 3 and a bit days and throughly deserve it.
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3 quick wickets removed any slim chance of getting 100 lead.
Pakistan have played better than us for 3 and a bit days and throughly deserve it.
Been better in every aspect, even with the couple of comedy moments in the field their catching has been better than England too. We're looking rather average at the moment :/
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Yeah , see , he does remind me of Vince ! :D :D
And edged behind.......oh yeah, youre right! :D
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2nd div trundler and a deminished Amir both bowled very well for the conditions and deserve their 4fors.
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Been better in every aspect, even with the couple of comedy moments in the field their catching has been better than England too. We're looking rather average at the moment :/
As I said before the match predictions on this forum England would rack up big runs were miles out, England have not played well for a good year to eighteen months.
We are average indeed. As a fan I can handle not playing well I've watched us for 30 odd years.
What we don't seem to have is a plan to get better, and that's a worry.
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As I said before the match predictions on this forum England would rack up big runs were miles out, England have not played well for a good year to eighteen months.
We are average indeed. As a fan I can handle not playing well I've watched us for 30 odd years.
What we don't seem to have is a plan to get better, and that's a worry.
Agree with that, im only just getting back into cricket but it doesnt seem like there is much in the way of talent banging on the door to take places.
I dont like Root as captain either, too much to put on one persons shoulders they should have kept him as the best batsman/team joker IMO
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As I said before the match predictions on this forum England would rack up big runs were miles out, England have not played well for a good year to eighteen months.
We are average indeed. As a fan I can handle not playing well I've watched us for 30 odd years.
What we don't seem to have is a plan to get better, and that's a worry.
That’s the coach and management not the players!
Split the coaching bayliss to stay in as whiteball coach new man (newell) take over test farbrace to be number 2 for both
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Oh and sack off the consultants and have a full time bowling, batting and fielding coach
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Interesting to hear Nasser suggest England suggest are carrying mental and emotional baggage from previous losses. I couldnt agree more. Their skills are fine but they are not, as Nasser would say, up for the fight.
And while old Thorpie talks about how counties can improve their approach to batting training, he never mentions the mental side of the game.
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Interesting to hear Nasser suggest England suggest are carrying mental and emotional baggage from previous losses. I couldn’t agree more. Their skills are fine but they are not, as Nasser would say, “ up for the fight”.
And while old Thorpie talks about how counties can improve their approach to batting training, he never mentions the mental side of the game.
They need a scratchy Jonathon Trott/Chanderpaul type player in with the flair batsman for exactly this type of match
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Mark wood the enforcer - 85mph. Bizarre tactics from England.
From what I’ve seen of wood - he’s overrated
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Root has always been suspect against the moving ball.
For me to counter that you move him back to 4 where he wants to be. You bring in a 2&3 (Two of Jennings/Gubbins/Burns).
I’d also question Malans place
Cook
Burns/Gubbins
Jennings
Root
Hildreth/Malan/Clarke
Bairstow
Stokes
Bess(Leach)
S. Curran
Broad
Anderson
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Wood looks knackered after 2 overs
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Bairstow twice? ;) Agree Malan hasn't offered much the past few games, would seem harsh to drop him though. Hildreth would definitely be a good man to bring in. If Butter is going to play I'd bat him 5, Bairstow at 7. Team needs a shake up you suspect so heads are going to have to roll at some point.
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I don't agree that there isn't talent around, they just not being given a chance. Gubbins, Clarke and S Curran are just a few. They need to identify young players with the right temperament to succeed and get them in.
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It’s an absolutely hammering
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Wood looks knackered after 2 overs
Yes banging it into the centre of the pitch will tire out any bowler, he actually looks fed up to be honest. At least he is not faking it.
I would seriously question banging the ball in which is what he has been told to do as village cricket.
As said....the lack of any clear thinking as much as anything is costing us.
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An experienced head wouldn't go amiss, the Chris Rogers route.
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beaten before lunch on the 4th day. A drastic change is needed especially with the ashes coming up. I agree with calzehbhoy but would leave Jennings out.
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An experienced head wouldn't go amiss, the Chris Rogers route.
Agree with that as Bumble mentioned in commentary about the ages of off spinners coming into their prime. Whats wrong with picking a proven county batsman around the 27-30 mark to work with what we already have
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Should be as easy a series win at home in recent times. Pakistan don't have any top class players
Enjoy your humble pie
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Joe Root on his knees at silly point.Oh dear.
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Enjoy your humble pie
Some of the comments on a forum with normally some very good knowledge in the last week have been downright embarrassing.
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I don't agree that there isn't talent around, they just not being given a chance. Gubbins, Clarke and S Curran are just a few. They need to identify young players with the right temperament to succeed and get them in.
The same noises were made about: Lyth, Robson, Hales, Jennings, Stoneman, Rashid. Ball, Wood...
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I felt sure Buttler would go early this morning.
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Interesting from Bayliss, gets asked about should they have bowled fuller and he's basically gone 'you try telling Jimmy and Broad to bowl fuller, I'm not going to'
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The 'woulda , coulda , shoulda , wasn't' Eng XII....
Lyth/Stoneman
Robson/Jennings
Hameed
Compton
Vince
Ballance
Foakes/Buttler (wk)
Rashid/Ali/Leach
Overton
T.Curran
Ball
S.Curran
Interesting how you can fill a whole side with them and still have leftovers ( oz has this very same issue ) ......
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Joe Root on his knees at silly point.Oh dear.
Not sure why he did that. One can easily get injured at that position. I would say it was irresponsible for him to do that.
No fielding position change would have stopped Pakistan from winning this morning.
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Saw this stat on Sky this morning. It really puts into perspective how crap our batting has been for quite a while!
(https://s6.postimg.cc/6rqbo5999/20180527_115744.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6rqbo5999/)
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This is about so much more than bad choice of personnel. I wish some of you would wake up to the fact.
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Interesting from Bayliss, gets asked about should they have bowled fuller and he's basically gone 'you try telling Jimmy and Broad to bowl fuller, I'm not going to'
He also said that Anderson prefers to bowl that slightly shorter to starve the batsman of runs and then pitch it up.
Fair play to the forumites who saw this coming because I didn't. I thought we'd win because of the conditions and how inexperienced the Pakistan team was. Credit to them they outplayed us in all 3 departments.
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Interesting from Bayliss, gets asked about should they have bowled fuller and he's basically gone 'you try telling Jimmy and Broad to bowl fuller, I'm not going to'
That screams of just spineless management really. I understand they’ve taken shed loads of wickets etc but to use a football analogy, no players bigger than the club
It’s been mentioned by others by Bayliss has to take some responsibility for this, the coach sets the strategy or as they like to term it now, the ‘brand’ of cricket. He first started tinkering the set up of the top order to have two aggressive players in the top 3. For me, the rot started there and has spread throughout the whole team.
We have an ODI mentality in a 5 day game that presents a whole set of different challenges.
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We have an ODI mentality in a 5 day game that presents a whole set of different challenges.
To lose is bad.. to lose like this is yet another embarrassment. Are they embarrassed? Nah
Do they care ? Not really, they’ll make up so PR crap and ‘go again’ next time.. still raking in the cash.
At least someone else ha finally realised we have a load of white ball mentality players who are unable to adapt to red ball Cricket consistently (yes, I’m sure they will do it the odd time but test cricket is about consistency!)
Sack the coach if you want but that will change nothing.
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Above, but enlarged
(https://i.redditmedia.com/rG_UYa8_91T4ryCXr8JsVzadF7-upGfvnx4s6-2IZRU.jpg?w=1024&s=1182b909667b220ef4216e525259d372)
At least I got a 50% refund today
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It is no secret that England have many, many problems in the Test arena, but they go beyond whether Buttler or Vince get's picked.
Clearly, the current coaching set-up isn't working. The meteoric rise of the ODI team has been matched by the plummet of the Test team.
England are a group of individuals, not a team in test matches. There's no solidity, no camaraderie and so on. Look at Pakistan- a team of fairly average players, with an inspirational captain and a fantastic team belief, ethic and spirit. 'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts'. Pakistan are a whole- England are literally just a few decent players, here and there.
We need pretty drastic change to the test team. Bayliss needs to go, and we need a genuine test specialist. I don't buy into this 'nice' captain nonsense that Root and to a lesser extent Cook have been all about. We need a captain that isn't afraid to be loud, angry with his players and also be an inspirational figure. Root's interviews make me cringe, honestly. He couldn't say boo to a goose- and a couple of his 'candid' ones have shown how disunited and factional the team is in places. I'm not on about a KP/Prior situation at all- I mean the players not sticking together, there not being that vital, central buy-in and culture that they need to be successful. You end up with a team of cliques and individuals, which is what we have now. That is why Pakistan will probably win this test series- and if I were a neutral, I'd support them every day of the week. Mercurial, exciting and a true team. If we get beaten, maybe change will happen. We've said that before though... I remember Warne moaning in his autobiography about some military/survival bootcamp they did to mould them as a team, and he may have hated it- but it worked.
We need a Brearley to be able to get the best out of this group of players- maybe just pluck the very best County Captain and give him the team. Alternatively, within the England side I can only see Bairstow with leadership potential, and I'm worried he too might be 'too nice'. The current thing of just giving the best player the captaincy (Root) doesn't work when your team simply isn't very good. We need to be finding genuine leaders again.
Here's what I would suggest- as a temporary measure until we get a better idea of county performances.
Cook
Jennings (Stoneman needs a break).
Malan (looked terrible but he has scored runs this season).
Root (Back to 4)
Bairstow (Captain)
Stokes
Buttler (WK- He scored 50 so he won't be dropped, but I'd rather have Foakes long-term).
Bess (I'm really not convinced by his bowling, but he'll do until Leach is recovered).
SEAM- I have no idea on this one, and I don't think anyone does. Who has the best county record this season? Doesn't matter how slow he is, Philander and Kallis were plenty successful- but must be different to Broad and Anderson. Economical.
Broad
Anderson
More than anything, we need to learn to stick with players. So many players have scored 100s for England lately (even in India) and have then been dropped and ruined by coaching. I get that in this instant-gratification world that isn't natural, but we need to.
This list of names should haunt us, because these are all players we have ultimately failed in developing properly. Ballance (4 100s, 7 50s, 37.50), Hameed (3 50s, 82 in India, 43.00), Jennings (112 in India), Robson and so on.
England's management have made so many poor decisions lately that it is hard to know where to start- but that is my blueprint for right now.
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Above, but enlarged
(https://i.redditmedia.com/rG_UYa8_91T4ryCXr8JsVzadF7-upGfvnx4s6-2IZRU.jpg?w=1024&s=1182b909667b220ef4216e525259d372)
At least I got a 50% refund today
And yet..
People still want the same faces in the top six even after these stats
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Please see my previous comment. This is not simply about bad choice of personnel.
Is Rory Burns really likely to do significantly better than Mark Stoneman or Keaton Jennings or Adam Lyth or Sam Robson?
The is about the overall state of English cricket; and, in particular, the impact of T20 greed on it.
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Please see my previous comment. This is not simply about bad choice of personnel.
Is Rory Burns really likely to do significantly better than Mark Stoneman or Keaton Jennings or Adam Lyth or Sam Robson?
The is about the overall state of English cricket; and, in particular, the impact of T20 greed on it.
Quite agree fella
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Interesting from Bayliss, gets asked about should they have bowled fuller and he's basically gone 'you try telling Jimmy and Broad to bowl fuller, I'm not going to'
And as Jimmy said its not about bowling short or full it's about making the batsman play
Wrong Jimmy on that pitch it was about bowling fuller.
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I don't think Id want to tell Jimmy Anderson where he should be bowling.
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Root should concentrate on racking up centuries instead of captaincy, if this series is lost Stokes or someone should take up the skipper role immediately.
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If the coach wants to say something,he should feel able to say it! Sounds like a toxic working environment if Bayliss is scared to offer advice to a senior player!
Root needs to go as Captain. A captain doesn't field at silly point,on his knees-like a fellow forumite said,it's dangerous-and if it pops up a couple of yards away from him,he can't bloody well move! Unbelievable Geoff
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Root should concentrate on racking up centuries instead of captaincy, if this series is lost Stokes or someone should take up the skipper role immediately.
What leadership qualities has stokes shown ? Sent home for punching lockers.. Bristol punch up... hardly someone you want leading your country. Plus, given he’s supposed to be this world clsss test batter and bowler.. would you not say there is a danger of overload like what happened to Botham/Flintoff etc ?
Sounds more like people clutching at straws than serious contenders
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Anything to avoid talking about the real issues.
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Above, but enlarged
(https://i.redditmedia.com/rG_UYa8_91T4ryCXr8JsVzadF7-upGfvnx4s6-2IZRU.jpg?w=1024&s=1182b909667b220ef4216e525259d372)
At least I got a 50% refund today
Thanks for enlarging this mate. Still getting the hang of the new photo posting thing.
Anyways what it shows for me is that it is 7 different opponent's, both home and away, across 2 years, numerous different players but all under the same coach!
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What leadership qualities has stokes shown ? Sent home for punching lockers.. Bristol punch up... hardly someone you want leading your country. Plus, given he’s supposed to be this world clsss test batter and bowler.. would you not say there is a danger of overload like what happened to Botham/Flintoff etc ?
Sounds more like people clutching at straws than serious contenders
Who would you go for?
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Who is the best English County captain? Can they bat, bowl or keep?
Job's a good un.
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Who is the best English County captain? Can they bat, bowl or keep?
Job's a good un.
Mullaney? can bat, bowls something a lot different and is a skipper.... or does his face not fit?
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I have seen a lot of people blaming batsmen taking a T20/ODI mentality into test cricket but I see a top order with Stoneman and Malan in it who consistently find themselves caught on the crease, squared up and either nicking off or getting bowled off stump. Cook had similar problems in Australia and NZ over the winter. For me the problems in the top order are more technical problems than an issue with batsman going to the crease with the wrong mental approach.
In recent times, England were at their best when they selected guys who were judged to be capable of making the step up to international level, not selected because they happened to have made some runs or taken wickets in the county championship. Bayliss could never implement that approach because he simply doesn't know enough about the talent pool in English cricket outside of the centrally contracted players. The best that can be hoped for in the medium term is that the new approach to selection will get back to the point where England can identify those with a game that will be successful at international level.
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Who is the best English County captain? Can they bat, bowl or keep?
Job's a good un.
I was watching recently an interview between Mike Atherton and Mike Brearley and Brears made the point that with the impact of central contracts and England players playing so little county cricket, there is very little opportunity for England's test players to gain any meaningful experience of captaincy at first class level. The last 2 appointments - Cook and Root - seem to have been made on the basis that there was no one else in the team who was a realistic option even though neither seems either suited to the role nor seems like they enjoy any part of it.
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I would hardly say Pakistan are full over average players
Amir, Shadab, Azam are hardly average.
The issue with England is all mental. Scars from a troubled winter being bullied into submission.
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Mullaney!
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Watch sky sports debate from day 3. Just listen to Compton .. he’s so right
Sadly, as he’s says.. it’s out of fashion now and that’s also the case at lower levels too.
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We must have nearly exhausted every name from county cricket now. Will we be putting forward mates from club cricket soon?
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We must have nearly exhausted every name from county cricket now. Will we be putting forward mates from club cricket soon?
Given most play winmlose now, I doubt even club Cricket is producing top order bats either !
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Watch sky sports debate from day 3. Just listen to Compton .. he’s so right
Sadly, as he’s says.. it’s out of fashion now and that’s also the case at lower levels too.
How could it be in fashion? There is hardly any 4 day cricket being played.
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Don't rate Compton as a pundit at all
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How can Compdog suggest Cook bats 3 when we haven't been able to find him an opening partner for years!
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Don't rate Compton as a pundit at all
Given his face doesn’t fit with the ECB, he’s more likely to be honest than the others tbf ! Still, you can write it off and continue with the same world class players we have and keep having the results we have over the last 2-3 years I suppose. Just wait for those random innings
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Compton himself can't get a game in Div 2 of the Championship.
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Compton seems to foster a genuine bitterness about losing his place in the England side but I never saw a player who was likely to have a long career for England.
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Compton himself can't get a game in Div 2 of the Championship.
Well said.
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He's a prickly character who told Gooch as England batting coach he did not understand his(comptons) batting.
He is also unafraid to speak his mind and whether you agree with him or not was a good player who didn't quite make it.
Had he been given a long run maybe he would of, maybe he wouldn't, no one will even know.
Bayliss wants attacking players in the top 3 and so he had a poor run of form and was jettisoned as quick as they could.
Him and Bob on the debate on sky was more interesting than normal as Willis tried to have a pop at him.
He's not playing for Middlesex as he has semi retired and not interested,it's his benefit this year and his contracted has not been renewed.
This attacking players method Uptop which we want, Vince being the latest example, has it worked?
Test cricket is being devalued around the world, I didn't think it would be England leading the race to the bottom.
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He's a prickly character who told Gooch as England batting coach he did not understand his(comptons) batting.
He is also unafraid to speak his mind and whether you agree with him or not was a good player who didn't quite make it.
Had he been given a long run maybe he would of, maybe he wouldn't, no one will even know.
Bayliss wants attacking players in the top 3 and so he had a poor run of form and was jettisoned as quick as they could.
Him and Bob on the debate on sky was more interesting than normal as Willis tried to have a pop at him.
He's not playing for Middlesex as he has semi retired and not interested,it's his benefit this year and his contracted has not been renewed.
This attacking players method Uptop which we want, Vince being the latest example, has it worked?
Test cricket is being devalued around the world, I didn't think it would be England leading the race to the bottom.
He was told he would not be a first-choice pick and could look for another county. There was no 'semi-retirement'. What a joke that they even gave him a benefit.
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Compton had his go;wasn't good enough. Dumped Middlesex to bat on some roads,then came back for a final payday.Would rather listen to Jonathan Trotter or anybody else but Compton. P.S. I got him out once.
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Everything wonderfully summed up by the brilliant George Dobell.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
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Everything wonderfully summed up by the brilliant George Dobell.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url])
Umm.. it’s the same as Compton said .. or is it acceptable when George says it ?? Oh the flip side.. james Taylor is sadly awful as he is way to chummy with players and the ecb. Essentially he says nothing useful
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Umm.. it’s the same as Compton said .. or is it acceptable when George says it ?? Oh the flip side.. james Taylor is sadly awful as he is way to chummy with players and the ecb. Essentially he says nothing useful
I didn't say anything about Compton at all.
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I agree with Boycott.We just aren't very good!
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Everything wonderfully summed up by the brilliant George Dobell.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url])
Yes, brilliant. Thanks for this.
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I agree with Boycott.We just aren't very good!
Has to be said: we usually weren't very good in the 1980s either.
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This current administration couldn't preserve a jar of jam, let alone test cricket
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Everything wonderfully summed up by the brilliant George Dobell.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23623390/england-humiliation-lord-was-accident-waiting-happen?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url])
Thanks for the link. Its a great read.
He writes 'What did they think would happen when they encouraged the batsmen to attack for several years so that the the value of a defensive technique was downplayed'.
Our batters barring are Cook unable to bat time. If we have to save a test match I'm not confident we would because with current batting line up they don't have the technique or the will to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't spend much time working on their defence.
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Stoneman's goose is cooked. Jennings in.
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Stoneman's goose is cooked. Jennings in.
Stoneman is out of form and early season wickets not helped. Better he is out of the firing line but could be the wrong side of 30 to come back, not that is right but it's the way it goes sometimes(Carberry).
One player won't fix England's issues thou, we are in the same position our our day side was after the 2015 WC.
This won't happen but as an armchair suggestion I would replace Bayliss with graham Thorpe and split the roles.
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Agreed. Think Ballance will come good eventually again and be a good player in the middle order. He's a serious player and has a better test record than any other recent addition. He just needs time.
Stoneman is out of form and early season wickets not helped. Better he is out of the firing line but could be the wrong side of 30 to come back, not that is right but it's the way it goes sometimes(Carberry).
One player won't fix England's issues thou, we are in the same position our our day side was after the 2015 WC.
This won't happen but as an armchair suggestion I would replace Bayliss with graham Thorpe and split the roles.
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Good to see Jennings back, he went away and has improved his game. Stoneman is done no reason for him to be selected again
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I worry for Malan. He looked very poor in the first test.
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"What does Stoneman have to do?", "Why, oh why?" etc.
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Agreed. Think Ballance will come good eventually again and be a good player in the middle order. He's a serious player and has a better test record than any other recent addition. He just needs time.
Gary Ballance will have to start playing cricket again before he is likely to come good. There are some that argue that the England set-up is becoming a bit of a cricketers' graveyard.
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Gary Ballance will have to start playing cricket again before he is likely to come good. There are some that argue that the England set-up is becoming a bit of a cricketers' graveyard.
Since 2010, all of these players have made debuts for England in tests.
Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad, Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root, Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes, Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin, Moeen, Jordan, Robson, Buttler, Lyth, Wood, Rashid, Hales, Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson, Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran, Crane, Leach, Bess.
Now that is shocking in itself. Let's do some stats...
Of those 39 players, 25 played less than 10 tests. Only 7 played more than 20. Top of the averages? Root, Hameed, Bairstow, Ballance, Stokes, Curran. Bowling averages? Roland-Jones, Borthwick and Tredwell are the stand-outs.
The last England player to debut and then make it to 20 tests is Moeen.
This makes me genuinely angry- what chance did some of these guys really have?
Borthwick and Robson, in particular, look hard done by.
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And how many go back to county cricket completely shot, never to be the same player again?
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Gary Ballance's stats are offset by feasting against Sri Lanka and India in English conditions against two sides that don't tour particularly well. Just look at Ballance's record against New Zealand and Australia sides with top class bowlers and his real ability was on full display. We'd have to be really at an all time low if we went back to ballance
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Since 2010, all of these players have made debuts for England in tests.
Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad, Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root, Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes, Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin, Moeen, Jordan, Robson, Buttler, Lyth, Wood, Rashid, Hales, Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson, Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran, Crane, Leach, Bess.
Now that is shocking in itself. Let's do some stats...
Of those 39 players, 25 played less than 10 tests. Only 7 played more than 20. Top of the averages? Root, Hameed, Bairstow, Ballance, Stokes, Curran. Bowling averages? Roland-Jones, Borthwick and Tredwell are the stand-outs.
The last England player to debut and then make it to 20 tests is Moeen.
This makes me genuinely angry- what chance did some of these guys really have?
Borthwick and Robson, in particular, look hard done by.
Didn't Borthwick pick up a few cheap wickets with full bungers when the Aussies were looking to slap a few and declare?He's basically a batter for surrey these days too.
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Who performed in 2017 after all of that?
Ballance averaged 67.92- 3 100s, 4 50s and was then forced to carry drinks for England all winter when the team couldn't buy a run. No wonder he's struggling now.
Westley averaged 43- 2 100s, 2 50s.
Robson averaged 39.25- 2 100s, 4 50s.
This year? Borthwick is doing okay at 42.5. Jennings at 44.86. Vince at 53.
That's basically it.
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Gary Ballance's stats are offset by feasting against Sri Lanka and India in English conditions against two sides that don't tour particularly well. Just look at Ballance's record against New Zealand and Australia sides with top class bowlers and his real ability was on full display. We'd have to be really at an all time low if we went back to ballance
If we were dealing with players scoring riches of runs, I'd agree. But we're not. He averages 37.5 for England.
Out of the current roster of players, only Cook, Root, Hameed (doesn't really count) and Bairstow have better averages.
Ballance's time will come again, I hope. He has actually scored the runs to suggest that he is plenty good enough.
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Since 2010, all of these players have made debuts for England in tests.
Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad, Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root, Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes, Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin, Moeen, Jordan, Robson, Buttler, Lyth, Wood, Rashid, Hales, Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson, Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran, Crane, Leach, Bess.
Now that is shocking in itself. Let's do some stats...
Of those 39 players, 25 played less than 10 tests. Only 7 played more than 20. Top of the averages? Root, Hameed, Bairstow, Ballance, Stokes, Curran. Bowling averages? Roland-Jones, Borthwick and Tredwell are the stand-outs.
The last England player to debut and then make it to 20 tests is Moeen.
This makes me genuinely angry- what chance did some of these guys really have?
Borthwick and Robson, in particular, look hard done by.
This doesn't seem to be out of kilter with the historical position. In the 90s, 58 players were given debuts, of which 35 went on the play 10 or less tests for England.
I feel that compared to previous generations, the batsmen in particular get a lot of patience when it comes to establishing a place in the side
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Having watched the match didn't think Pakistan as a test team were that good what that did have unlike England and it worked was a veried balanced bowling attack also there batters again unlike England apart from Bess and in the second innings played with grit determination and plenty of fight.
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And how many go back to county cricket completely shot, never to be the same player again?
There have been a few to be fair. There are not many who have the skill and toughness to go back, learn from their mistakes but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Having watched the match didn't think Pakistan as a test team were that good what that did have unlike England and it worked was a veried balanced bowling attack also there batters again unlike England apart from Bess and in the second innings played with grit determination and plenty of fight.
Are they varied? In terms of how they bowl, they seem pretty similar :)
In my opinion, they bowled with discipline and that was a differentiator.
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Good to see Jennings back, he went away and has improved his game. Stoneman is done no reason for him to be selected again
with your track record of predictions on this thread.. this surely means Stoneman will be back soon, and will start smashing 300s for fun, and will end up with a career average of 100
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with your track record of predictions on this thread.. this surely means Stoneman will be back soon, and will start smashing 300s for fun, and will end up with a career average of 100
England lost due to the shortcomings of our on creations. Pakistan are a workmanlike side whom pretty much played above their natural level at Lords. You'll be back to usual soon enough
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Are they varied? In terms of how they bowl, they seem pretty similar :)
In my opinion, they bowled with discipline and that was a differentiator.
I thought they were all pretty similar as well, just kept a good line which Englands batsmen don't have the patience to face without the scoreboard ticking over, seems to be a blueprint for success against the current batting lineup to be fair
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/video/clip?id=23649278 (http://www.espncricinfo.com/video/clip?id=23649278)
pak bowling coach talks about how he overruled his bowlers and forced them to bowl full.. can't imagine broad/anderson being receptive to such "advice"
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Azhar Mahmood has a lot of experience over here but you may be half joking but that is a problem for us and has been in the past, there is a problem with this current England side I wonder if influence of senior players is an issue?
Yes we batted rubbish but how do we get outbowled in our conditions?
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What are the conditions like in Leeds?
England will be ready, mentally, to take the game to Pak. Second test won't be so one-sided.
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Anyone watching Sky will know Sam Curran called up as cover as precaution for Stokes
We don't need Stokes out of the match but I think even if Stokes can bat and bowl fine England will play Woakes at Leeds so we have enough bowling.
That might mean, presuming Woakes is fit of course, Wood would miss out.
Also a prickly interview in the Guardian with Anderson, who was rumoured to have had a bust of with a bowling coach last year, perhaps not taking kindly to Bayliss comments 'we are telling the players the same message'
Which I read to mean the players continue not to listen to advice...
I don't believe all is well in the England camp myself.
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Thing is England can't do without the experience of Broad and Anderson and they know it
If Woakes plays its a step backwards this England team needs a radical overall / transformation
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Thing is England can't do without the experience of Broad and Anderson and they know it
The team is losing anyway with them.. might as well lose without them !
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Get rid of Broad been average for too long,sends the wrong message
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Sam Curran is in the test squad..! Stokes nursing a hammy apparently.
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Get rid of Broad been average for too long,sends the wrong message
He's been fabulous for years, I'm no bowler but he does look to be labouring to me.
You do wonder whether Woakes or Craig Overton would do a very similar job, and in Overton clearly he is a better batsman down the order.
Broad is not offering any runs at all. The special spells seem to have gone as well.
Maybe too many overs have caught up with him a bit.
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Also a prickly interview in the Guardian with Anderson, who was rumoured to have had a bust of with a bowling coach last year, perhaps not taking kindly to Bayliss comments 'we are telling the players the same message'
Which I read to mean the players continue not to listen to advice...
I don't believe all is well in the England camp myself.
From that interview: "Some people think they might know better than me but I’d like to think that, after 15 years of playing Test cricket, I know which lengths to bowl on certain pitches."
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He's been fabulous for years, I'm no bowler but he does look to be labouring to me.
You do wonder whether Woakes or Craig Overton would do a very similar job, and in Overton clearly he is a better batsman down the order.
Broad is not offering any runs at all. The special spells seem to have gone as well.
Maybe too many overs have caught up with him a bit.
next test
Really do hope he bowls like he did in the second NZ test as for His batting he used to be an opener but its gone downhill since that blow to the face he's sees the square leg leg etc go back and thinks bouncer coming then gets bowled
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Sam Curran is never ready for Test cricket.
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Sam Curran is never ready for Test cricket.
He may not be ready, he might be. We've not seen enough of him in county cricket but the way he bowled against Yorkshire makes me certain I'm very much ready to find out.
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Two years too early, although it's nice to maybe have a left armer involved. If Stokes can only bat I'd prefer they just left him out to be honest.
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What is this obsession with having to be a certain age to be any good or "ready"? Surely the only way to know if he's ready or not is chuck him in and see how he gets on?
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What is this obsession with having to be a certain age to be any good or "ready"? Surely the only way to know if he's ready or not is chuck him in and see how he gets on?
completely agree with this
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For those saying Sam "isn't ready".
As a batsman he clearly has a long way to go, but that isn't why he has been picked.
As a bowler he has over 100 first division first class wickets and isn't 20 yet. At headingly he can do a job.
When Anderson played he hadn't bowled as many overs as Sam has. Sam has more control than Anderson had at the same age.
Clearly if Stokes can't play then Buttler moves to 6 and Woakes plays, but Sam could do a job batting at 9 after Bess and offers variation.
Also having him see first hand how Anderson and Broad prepare will be great.
Finally having Sam bowling in the nets to the England batsman over the next few days won't do them any harm either.
This negatively around the selection of Sam is ridiculous.
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Drop Broad, don't risk Stokes.
Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Buttler
Curran
Woakes
Bess
Wood
Anderson
Arguably bats down to 9, with 5 bowlers and 2 x part-timers.
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Look at how many younger players have been put into the England spotlight in the last 18 odd months, starting with Hameed. Can we say it's done them any good?
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Separately Broad has been dropped, I understand.
You heard it hear first.
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What is this obsession with having to be a certain age to be any good or "ready"? Surely the only way to know if he's ready or not is chuck him in and see how he gets on?
Didn't everyone declare Haseeb Hameed the savior of English Test Cricket when he debuted age 19?
If you're good enough, you're old enough. How do you find out if someone is good enough? Give them a chance. Simple, really...
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Separately Broad has been dropped, I understand.
You heard it hear first.
Michael Vaughan will be delighted...
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Separately Broad has been dropped, I understand.
You heard it hear first.
Your intelligence recently has been suspiciously good. Are you Englands bag man?
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That would be pretty big news england don’t make too many changes
And Vaughan will be pleased indeed
Is Overton fit? Seems odd he is not in the squad
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Bairstow pulled out of training this morning too according to Cricinfo.
It's all going wrong!
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Wheels are coming off big time
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So if we do lose Stokes and Bairstow (and Broad is dropped) this could be our starting XI. Hardly the most inspiring batting line up...
Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Buttler
Foakes
Woakes
Bess
Curran
Wood
Anderson
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If Bairstow is genuinely a doubt, then they'll call up a batsman as cover and give Buttler the gloves.
Not as though we're touring abroad and can't get someone to Headingly with a day's notice! Every county player in the country would drive through the night to get there and have a chance of playing.
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Team needs a boot up the (No Swearing Please) by the looks of things, Broad dropped and Stokes/Bairstow not playing might not be the best way to win this test but Woakes with the new ball/Curran debut/young batsman getting a chance is a great way to start moving the team into the future.
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What's all this of Broad being dropped? Haven't seen anything official or is it just the CBF spies?
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One of my clubs juniors who plays in Yorkshire set up has cleaned up both Woakes and Bess this morning
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Stokes and Bairstow will both be fine to play tomorrow.
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That would be pretty big news england don’t make too many changes
And Vaughan will be pleased indeed
Is Overton fit? Seems odd he is not in the squad
Overton as an injured hand
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Team needs a boot up the (No Swearing Please) by the looks of things, Broad dropped and Stokes/Bairstow not playing might not be the best way to win this test but Woakes with the new ball/Curran debut/young batsman getting a chance is a great way to start moving the team into the future.
Woakes with the new ball who's done nothing for two years a great way to start moving England into the future has to be a windup comment.
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Woakes with the new ball who's done nothing for two years a great way to start moving England into the future has to be a windup comment.
Only windup is your continuous Woakes bashing!
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I've read this thread through a few times and managed to stop myself from commenting...until now.
I think all of us as England fans need a bit of reality check, please let me explain.
1. We have a (just one) world class opener. Cook is the best we have. He is not as consistent as he once was but is still capable of big hundreds.
2. Root is world class. Would we sometimes like him to be as consistent as Kohil, Smith and Williamson? Yes we would like him to convert more 50's into 100's but let's just be happy we have him and appreciate him.
3. YJB is very, very good.
4. We don't have another opener to really partner Cook. Nobody is smashing down the selectors door to be picked. Choose Jennings, choose Stoneman, choose Gubbins, Choose Life or choose Robson. Nobody is showing outstanding First Class form to be picked.
5. We don't have a number 4. Malan has showed glimpses of class but isn't consistent yet.
6. Stokes is very, very good.
7. Butler could be an option at number 7. But should probably keep and free up YJB.
8. We don't have a world class spinner. We have to throw someone the ball and hope they are up to Test Match standard.
9. Broad is no longer Test class but who do we replace him with? Is Woakes good enough? Do you just pick the best bowler in the first class game? Do you identify 5 bowlers under 25 and say we will work with you and the bowler/bowlers that produce the best performances in the First Class game will get a test match call.
10. Anderson is very good.
11. See Broad above.
So in summary with the exception of Root, YJB, Stokes and on occasion Cook and Anderson England are pretty average. What can be done to change things? In years gone by we had some very strong First Class performers who were regularly scoring runs and taking wickets. How many batsman now regularly average 50+ in a first class season for more than just one season?
Let's completely review the professional cricket in England. Too much meaningless cricket is played. The 50 over competition is poorly attended. We only need 1 T20 competition. Why not make the 50 over competition a knockout completion? The England players should have been able to play 4 or 5 first class matches before the test match series begins. Let's have more quality cricket and less volume of cricket. The first class season should be Anderson Vs Cook, Root Vs Porter, Stoneman Vs Overton etc. We need the best test match qualified players facing each other, as regularly as possible.
APRIL/MAY/JUNE should be first class cricket with a bit of 50 over county cricket.
JULY/AUGUST should be T20. Plenty of test cricket/ODI's for those that are of international quality.
SEPT Final first class cricket play off games. Bit of test match cricket and ODI's.
I don't want this to come across as a England bashing rant. Something is wrong though and needs some fixing. We are an average test match side but on a positive front we are a very good ODI side. We have a few fundamental issues to address:
1. How do we develop test match/longer format batsman capable of playing in all conditions?
2. How do we develop test match spinners?
3. How do we develop/nurture pace bowlers?
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That’s a lot of thread to read.
I’m not hundred percent sure Sam is gonna be year class, but I am actually quite happy to see the lad get a shot.
Left armer something different too.
But what did Tom do to upset the selection after ashes? He wasn’t that bad was he?
Broad should be jettisoned, his and Anderson’s attitude stinks, but Anderson a lot more consistent as a test player. Broad turns up once every 20’innings, and is below average rest of the time.
Plus his batting has become a joke.
Back to Sam, good he’s in at 19, maybe England should try real youth. Ollie pope? Harry brooks? Hameed....... although it’s an odi he’s near fifty today.
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Tom has got himself a seriously questionable barnet hence no selection
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Only windup is your continuous Woakes bashing!
Hardly bashing poor in Aus not selected for the second NZ test left out out of the first England v pakistan test
And dropped by Kholi IPL team tells us something
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Didn't everyone declare Haseeb Hameed the savior of English Test Cricket when he debuted age 19?
If you're good enough, you're old enough. How do you find out if someone is good enough? Give them a chance. Simple, really...
True. And, give them time.
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also a little patience probably won't be too bad an idea. Eng has had some real tough series - Aus in Aus, NZ in NZ, and now Pak (who were rather stupidly underestimated, despite their recent record vs England). None of the last three opponents has been weak.
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Jos Buttler is a poor wicket-keeper. The only way Jonny B should give up the gloves is if Ben Foakes is picked.
Tom Curran might have bowled himself into contentiin had he not chosen to go to the IPL.
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Didn't everyone declare Haseeb Hameed the savior of English Test Cricket when he debuted age 19?
Yes, and look what happened there.
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Shows how far we have regressed when we are struggling to hammer a pathetic Pakistan side. Not a single Pakistan player is genuine top class. Maybe Amir on the rare day he turns up.
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Recall this man (in the jeans)
(http://a4.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fi%2Fcricket%2Fcricinfo%2F1148249_1296x518.jpg&w=660&h=264&scale=crop&cquality=80&location=center)
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What about someone with genuine pace?Anyone?Not another bang average medium pacer, please...! This going to be worse than the 90's at this rate!
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Like Nasser ( in the jeans) Just watched mills playing for the rest of the world bowled with serious pace if he didn't have a back problem he could have become just what England needed at the right time.
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What about someone with genuine pace?Anyone?Not another bang average medium pacer, please...! This going to be worse than the 90's at this rate!
Name one then?
Easy to state the problem, not so easy to come up with a solution!
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Name one then?
Easy to state the problem, not so easy to come up with a solution!
That's pretty much I was saying....Was Curran a colt at your club?
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Seems my source was on the source.
Team for the test:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Bess
Broad
Anderson
Stokes out with injury
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Right time to forget all the negativity and back the boys!
We know we’re rubbish but at doesn’t stop us supporting (much like most football fans)
Hope Curran does well will also help produce rough for Bess to work with!
COME ON ENGLAND
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Great to have holding back commentating!
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Seems my source was on the source.
Team for the test:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Bess
Broad
Anderson
Stokes out with injury
They’ve put Bess to bat above Curran- not sure that will happen tho.
Great to see Woakes back - he bowls the same pace (if not quicker)as Wood and isnire of a batting option.
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I'd open with Anderson and Woakes - but i bet they won't!
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Broad to take many wickets this test. Moan that he was ever questioned. And then do nothing else in 2018
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BROADY
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Amazing what happens when you pitch it up in England
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WTF do I know!
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This is some swing
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Look so much more threatening on a full length.
Ball hooping around and Jimmy keeps banging it back of a length... Get fuller!
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And another for Broad....was always going to happen after what that knob Vaughan said
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Beat me to it!
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And another for Broad....was always going to happen after what that knob Vaughan said
Maybe his comments have worked though? Broad actually looks fired up and is bowling the proper lengths for once....
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Need to get Curran on while it's still swinging to get the best from him I think!
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#WoakesOut
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Woakes is bowling well
Curran although looked slow was getting good swing
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Rubbish this Chris Woakes chap.
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The real Pakistan are back. Had Anderson not wasted the new ball we'd probably be batting by now
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Here we go.... "It's against a rubbish batting side"....
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We appear to be bowling a fuller length even on a good batting pitch
Apart from Anderson ! :)
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The real Pakistan are back. Had Anderson not wasted the new ball we'd probably be batting by now
I think it's more like 'the proper England bowling are back'
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The real Pakistan are back. Had Anderson not wasted the new ball we'd probably be batting by now
It’s amazing that 4 separate people all have the same attitude and post in the same way....... just non on the forum at the same time.
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Woakes is bowling well
Curran although looked slow was getting good swing
Woakes second was a cracking delivery!
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Nasser was just saying that even though he isn't bowling full enough anderson is averaging 19 over the past 15 tests that quite impressive given the winter we've had and the different balls used etc
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That's a ripper from Jimmy
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That's a ripper from Jimmy
And full.....
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Drop Broad and Anderson - Vaughan
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Broad is crap
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its amazing what a few days and a being called out can do!!!!
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You just know Vaughan is going to claim credit for an improved bowling performance!
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Very good bowling from England. Perfect for the conditions.
If Pak can get up to 150 somehow you just never know. Their bowling is their strength so who knows what happens with the ball swinging around.
It's funny Micky mentioned that Pakistan are likely to roll over due to their inexperience in his interview at the end of the last game and it has happend in this game
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You just know Vaughan is going to claim credit for an improved bowling performance!
Vaughan on TMS already has said "it shouldn't take someone having a go for them to come out and bowl like this" ........ or something along those lines
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Vaughan is an absolute whopper.
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Vaughan is an absolute whopper.
I think you'll find 'whopper' should be spelled with an A, N , and K.
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Vaughan gets a lot of abuse in whew and on twitter. It�s amusing.
He�s a decent ex player and captain that now works in the media, to stand out you have to get a reaction, and he knows exactly what he�s saying, and is getting the reaction he wants.
If he gave views no one reacted to and nobody discussed him to replied to his tweet, he�d end up without a job.
As for the broad situation, he looks hungry and more accurate this test than previous, I fully believe that he�d have bowled the same tripe if he hadn�t been questioned.
Here�s hoping he takes this effort into more test this summer and not just when the �whopper� Vaughan is having a pop.
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8 down, time for Root to get Curran (and possibly Bess too) on. Not sure it's the greatest captaincy only giving Curran four overs and letting Anderson pick up all the easy wickets in the tail, have a heart when it's a young bloke on debut!
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Vaughan on TMS already has said "it shouldn't take someone having a go for them to come out and bowl like this" ........ or something along those lines
He might be a plank, but that statement is true.
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174 all out. Great bowling performance from Broad and Anderson.
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Pakistan 78 for 7 to 174 all out allow to recover a little by Englands bowlers Root should have brought back Broad sooner.
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Pakistan 78 for 7 to 174 all out allow to recover a little by Englands bowlers Root should have brought back Broad sooner.
is that because woakes was bowling?
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Pakistan 78 for 7 to 174 all out allow to recover a little by Englands bowlers Root should have brought back Broad sooner.
nice to see Sam Curran collect his first test wicket though
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Pakistan 78 for 7 to 174 all out allow to recover a little by Englands bowlers Root should have brought back Broad sooner.
How about looking at it this way:
Pakistan won the toss and elected to bat. England then bowled them out for 174 before tea!
Why does there have to be a negative spin on everything?
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nice to see Sam Curran collect his first test wicket though
Yes it was as Nasser said by keeping on Sam romance is not lost
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How about looking at it this way:
Pakistan won the toss and elected to bat. England then bowled them out for 174 before tea!
Why does there have to be a negative spin on everything?
Yep exactly this........ anytime you lose the toss and then bowl a side out for under 200.... you have to call that a good day in the field!!
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How about looking at it this way:
Pakistan won the toss and elected to bat. England then bowled them out for 174 before tea!
Why does there have to be a negative spin on everything?
Not negative good Captains when they have there foot on the oppositions throat keep it there.
Think Border Waugh etc.
As for Pakistan winning the toss and batting the way the ball was moving off the pitch this morning showed that to be the wrong call just think if England had won the toss and batted as Root said he would have done what would we be writing
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Very early in his innings but Jennings looks like a completely different batsman to the guy that was last in the England side... Still not massive foot movement but the front leg coming towards the ball and bending into the shot makes him look so much smoother.
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hope he does well. It should be mandatory to bat in long sleeves. Classy.
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Very early in his innings but Jennings looks like a completely different batsman to the guy that was last in the England side... Still not massive foot movement but the front leg coming towards the ball and bending into the shot makes him look so much smoother.
And it looked like the square leg ump told him not to push his front leg to far down the pitch
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Clear sky's batting is much easier
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Our openers have put on a partnership of 50. What?
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Our openers have put on a partnership of 50. What?
lies
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damn - Jennings gone
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Anybody else notice the huge knot in the back of Cooks bat?
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100 up for 1
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Oh dear! Cook with very soft dismissal!! That is village!
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Oh dear! Cook with very soft dismissal!! That is village!
He seemed very early on it, surely he could have dropped his hands
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And it looked like the square leg ump told him not to push his front leg to far down the pitch
Stupid rule, some umpires trying to bring it into the amateur game too, how many time you see a batsmen encroach on the danger area?
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Anybody else notice the huge knot in the back of Cooks bat?
I thought I saw that in 1st Test.
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Feel pretty sorry for Mark Wood, whilst I don't rate his 'pace' as extraordinary after seeing how inept Sam Curran was, Wood must be really disappointed. Before you Surrey hardliners start crying even England legend Bob Willis said Curran was dreadful
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Curran wasn’t great until about his 4th over when he settled down.
It was his first test and he was bound to be nervous.
I though he warmed up to the task quite well and is about 3-5mph away from being a serious threat. If he stays fit and keeps working he will be a serious bowler for England!
Remember Starc in his first tour of England, now look at him!
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Not ready?
Sam's a massively talented 19 year-old. Not a Test match bowler.
Those of you surprised at the pace he bowls had obviously never even seen him before you started shouting his name authoritively.
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I think the TV pundits were saying Wood being dumped for this match is pretty poor. If it's Woakes or Wood(first test selection) I would have Woakes myself.
Now come th second test after being asked to brainlessly bang it in halfway down he is dropped.
If England play wood instead of Curran we have similar bowlers so maybe that's the thinking.
Personally I think selection has been all over the shop for 12 months and continues to be.
If wood was good enough for the last match why isn't he good enough now? We need variety in the bowling but only if you have a better bowler to replace it with.
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Agree with the pundits apparently wood was told to be England's enforcer on a a slow low track although he gave it 100 percent a failed tactic.
Woakes wood jimmy Broad or any pakistan seamer the way the ball was moving off the pitch would have got wickets before lunch yesterday. It was an hit the length with the seam up and watch the ball go track.
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Who is your favourite English cricketer and why is it Dom Bess?
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Someone scored a fifty!
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Buttler teeing off now broads in.
Bottas goes to a short ball, surprise. Think his eyes was shut. Can Vaughan have a pop at his batting please.....
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That six just now was absolutely glorious
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Some England players wearing cream coloured jumpers and some in those god awful white ones
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Just saw a photo of the top of Jos Buttlers handle with a bit of sharpie on it.... JB? No it says the words f**k it!!! May be photoshopped but if not quite funny!
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Just saw a photo of the top of Jos Buttlers handle with a bit of sharpie on it.... JB? No it says the words f**k it!!! May be photoshopped but if not quite funny!
He’s mentioned it a few times and is a reminder of his attitude to batting
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Just saw a photo of the top of Jos Buttlers handle with a bit of sharpie on it.... JB? No it says the words f**k it!!! May be photoshopped but if not quite funny!
(https://s6.postimg.cc/f1e6pmdj5/IMG_20180603_133221.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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^ Which bat is this?
I have CA handles that look like this!
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Buttler ends series as highest run scorer.... who’d have though it?!?
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The specialist number 7 is an old position England used a lot in the 90's with hick and ramprakash both batting there.
It is unusual, it has worked and I guess it's takes the pressure off so he can play freely...
We looked a better side allround and now will give Jennings the whole summer you would think.
Stokes back for Curran and is that now our best side?
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Wasn't an ebay Buttler '**** it' highlighted on here a few months ago?
If only 'it' meant the IPL.
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Credit to Ed Smith for the Buttler and Bess picks?
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People on here giving the selectors or ECB any credit?
Noooooooooooooooooo!
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The specialist number 7 is an old position England used a lot in the 90's with hick and ramprakash both batting there.
It is unusual, it has worked and I guess it's takes the pressure off so he can play freely...
We looked a better side allround and now will give Jennings the whole summer you would think.
Stokes back for Curran and is that now our best side?
When Stokes is back England should stick with 20 year old Curran he gave us a glimpse of what he can do with both bat and ball allow him to to develop his skills at test level also learning from Broad and Anderson
England looked a better side but apart from Amer Pakistans batting bowling and fielding at times was poor.
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When Stokes is back England should stick with 20 year old Curran he gave us a glimpse of what he can do with both bat and ball allow him to to develop his skills at test level
England looked a better side but apart from Amer Pakistans batting bowling and fielding at times was poor.
so you're saying they should drop Woakes?
shock!
although i though Curran did well and will be a part of England plans there no way he wont drop out when stokes returns
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so you're saying they should drop Woakes?
shock!
although i though Curran did well and will be a part of England plans there no way he wont drop out when stokes returns
On the first morning the way the Duke ball was hooping around in the humid conditions any seamer who pitched the ball up would have taken wickets fancied a bowl myself.
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The specialist number 7 is an old position England used a lot in the 90's with hick and ramprakash both batting there.
It is unusual, it has worked and I guess it's takes the pressure off so he can play freely...
England have had a batsman at no.8 for much of the past few years.
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Indeed, Moeen Ali might have reason to feel slughtly aggrieved at never having been given similar 'specialist' license himself?
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On the first morning the way the ball was hooping around in the humid conditions any seamer who pitched the ball up would have taken wickets fancied a bowl myself.
and yet on comms they were saying anderson was too short, so the fact woakes pitched it up and bowled a better length than jimmy means nothing to you?
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Indeed, Moeen Ali might have reason to feel slughtly aggrieved at never having been given similar 'specialist' license himself?
That’s not quite right as Ali was in as the only spinner but I do see your point
As I posted a while back ‘what next for mo ali’ It’s becomes harder for him to get back in
He sees himself as a batsman who bowls so you can see the irony
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That’s not quite right as Ali was in as the only spinner but I do see your point
As I posted a while back ‘what next for mo ali’ It’s becomes harder for him to get back in
He sees himself as a batsman who bowls so you can see the irony
Well for his sake he better set the domestic season alite with runs and wickets for a chance to get back in, would be picking stokes, Woakes, Bess and Sam Curran all before him in the all rounder slot. Yes im using that term loosely for Sam Curran currently.
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but I do see your point
I'm glad. While Moeen never looked convincing as a frontline spinner, he was often awesome in the role Buttler has been given.
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and yet on comms they were saying anderson was too short, so the fact woakes pitched it up and bowled a better length than jimmy means nothing to you?
Woakes did pitch the ball up and on the first day the conditions got the wickets
jimmy showed all his experience bowled the correct length for each batsman throughout the match he made them play
the ball at times he was so good the batsman were clueless
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Well for his sake he better set the domestic season alite with runs and wickets for a chance to get back in, would be picking stokes, Woakes, Bess and Sam Curran all before him in the all rounder slot. Yes im using that term loosely for Sam Curran currently.
I'd wager Sam Curran is a better batsman than Dom Bess.
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Joseph Buttler further England captain
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I'd wager Sam Curran is a better batsman than Dom Bess.
And they both out scored forum favourite woakes
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I'm glad. While Moeen never looked convincing as a frontline spinner, he was often awesome in the role Buttler has been given.
Totally agree. The problem with Ali is he is not a frontline spinner like for example leach
Ali’s selection was always coming to this point, he consistently selection in an upside down role
He is a batsman first and foremost
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And they both out scored forum favourite woakes
forum favourite out bowled both of them put together - they are in the side to bowl, the batting is a bonus
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Is there a more annoying commentator than that Isa Guha? Makes me watch to switch off the cricket listening to her. I cant be the only one surely.
Heard her scream out "what a speccy" after a good catch was taken. Get here outtha there please somebody.
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Is there a more annoying commentator than that Isa Guha? Makes me watch to switch off the cricket listening to her. I cant be the only one surely.
Heard her scream out "what a speccy" after a good catch was taken. Get here outtha there please somebody.
Uh, Dan Norcross.
I like Isa Guha's commentary. Seems to be free of the usual boys club in-joke's and seems quite self deprecating.
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I’m just glad Swann has not been around, loved him as a player but you can see why goughie floored him on tour
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She's quite nice to look at too which is a bonus.
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Is there a more annoying commentator than that Isa Guha? Makes me watch to switch off the cricket listening to her. I cant be the only one surely.
Heard her scream out "what a speccy" after a good catch was taken. Get here outtha there please somebody.
Quite like her holds her own with the more experience commentators
IPL commentators are the worse shouting and speaking assertively over nothing
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A two match series is daft. Should always be three or five, in my opinion.
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Is there a more annoying commentator than that Isa Guha? Makes me watch to switch off the cricket listening to her. I cant be the only one surely.
She seems a nice lass - indeed, the one time I met her in person the same applied. But she is very obviously there to fulfill a quota and adds nothing. It seems a shame when someone like Charlie Dagnall only get a few games in the RL50 - if they were picking a commentator on merit, he's got it hands down.
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That’s not quite right as Ali was in as the only spinner but I do see your point
As I posted a while back ‘what next for mo ali’ It’s becomes harder for him to get back in
He sees himself as a batsman who bowls so you can see the irony
Given that the current requirement seems to be "Can you hit a couple of nice cover drives before giving it away wafting outside off" then I reckon Moeen might have a decent shot at the #3 spot.
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Is there a more annoying commentator than that Isa Guha? Makes me watch to switch off the cricket listening to her. I cant be the only one surely.
Heard her scream out "what a speccy" after a good catch was taken. Get here outtha there please somebody.
Wasim Akram, Ian Botham.
Isa was by no means the worst or most irritating person on the mic this series.
I like Isa Guha's commentary. Seems to be free of the usual boys club in-joke's and seems quite self deprecating.
Indeed.
She wasn't bad and she'll only get better.