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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Jeff Navarro on June 29, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
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Captain Joe Root on daddy duties and misses first Test. Ginger ninja Ben Stokes to be captain
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Presume the obvious solution is to pick both Denly and Crawley. They’ll no doubt go with YJB at 4 though🤦♂️
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Presume the obvious solution is to pick both Denly and Crawley. They’ll no doubt go with YJB at 4 though🤦♂️
Obvious solution but so definitely the wrong one. Burns, Sibley, Crawley in the top 3 and give Dan Lawrence a crack at 4!
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Presume the obvious solution is to pick both Denly and Crawley. They’ll no doubt go with YJB at 4 though🤦♂️
I'd bring Lawrence in - Burns Sibley Crawley Lawrence Stokes Pope. Nobody will care if we don't do that well this summer (the ECB just need the broadcast income) and Lawrence has potential to average 50 in Oz for the ashes whereas Denly doesn't. Denly won't be any better or worse if we need to go back to him if one of the young lads fails and their confidence is shot.
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What are England going to do with the spin option thou?
:)
I suspect they want Moeen as first pick
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I suspect they want Moeen as well - not so much with a view on the Ashes (I suspect they will go with Bess for a holding role there) but to bulk out the batting. I'd like to see Lawrence get a go, and would tend to:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Lawrence
Stokes
Pope
Foakes/Bairstow
Ali
Archer
Wood
Anderson/Broad
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If it’s not Foakes....has Bairstow done anything to deserve a recall?
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Aside from 2016, Bairstow remaining 50 odd Tests he averages 28. So no he shouldn’t be anyway near the test squad let alone the playing XI
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With Root away I suspect it will be Denly at 4, it would be lovely to see Lawrence but that is giving someone a debut after losing all of Root's experience, so I don't think it's going to happen.
Mo will be the spinner because otherwise our tail is very long indeed.
I think Buttler is going to get 1 last chance as well.
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Denly
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Mo
Archer
Broad
Anderson
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Although I think it's clear he will play,
Moeen Ali should not be in the xi, he had a self enforced absence and is now 3rd in line behind Bess and Leach, it should stay that way, massively unfair on two spinners who have started their careers well (Bess breakthrough in sa) he needs to play for worcs and earn his spot,
The batsmen should do they're job, pick them to score runs pick bowlers to take wickets with one all rounder (Stokes)
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Denly in for me too with an inexperienced top order. I actually think Denly has done well, not fantastic but ground out some runs when we needed....long term Crawley should get better so he is maybe the one who takes Joe's place-and fair enough.
England have always wanted runs from the number 8....or the spinner shall we say. Rather than picking the picking the 'best' spin option.
Giles a bit, Swann,woakes,Moeen, Bess...they can all bat. Bess hasn't played much but looks like he could develop into a very handy batsman.
All this is potentially back news for Leach who is the lowest of that group batting wise.
England like Ali thou that's pretty obvious..
Butler does need runs, I hope they stick with him for this series so a fair chance. It's got to be Foakes thou if his time runs out.
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If it’s not Foakes....has Bairstow done anything to deserve a recall?
We're in danger of rehashing one of the most done to death debates ever here. I'd go Foakes because this summer is an interesting chance to experiment a bit and his glovework would be very valuable in India in the Winter. If the selectors wanted someone else, that perceived counter attack from #7, I would always go Bairstow over Buttler - I guess my version of your question would be has Jos done anything to deserve to retain his spot.
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Confirmed, root to miss warm up and first test, he leaves camp Wednesday afternoon, Stokes to captain, buttler is vice captain, looks like we know who the keeper will be!
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Whilst I think Stokesy will do fine for a game or two, Buttler is meh.
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Somewhere, they have listed the 2 internal Eng squad sides who are playing each other. I believe Virdi has missed out for some reason.
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Two teams have been selected for the three-day intra squad match starting tomorrow. The teams will be captained by Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler.
Team Stokes: Dominic Sibley, Keaton Jennings, Zak Crawley, Jonathan Bairstow, Ben Stokes (c), Ben Foakes, Moeen Ali, Lewis Gregory, Craig Overton, Jack Leach, Olly Stone, James Anderson, Saqib Mahmood.
Team Buttler: Rory Burns, James Bracey, Joe Denly, Dan Lawrence, Ollie Pope, Jos Buttler (c), Sam Curran, Chris Woakes, Dominic Bess, Mark Wood, Jofra Archer, Stuart Broad, Matthew Parkinson, Ollie Robinson.
Funny old mix.
Seems a shoot out between Laurence, Crawley and Denly for two spots in the XI, with Crawley and Denly favourites.
Bowling will be Jofra, Jimmy and Broad, which leaves the spinner, the windiest only have one leftie, the rest are righties, which means you need a SLA rather than an offie, but Mo is experienced and is the better batsman of the three.
Ed Smith has excessive man love for Buttler. It is boring.
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Bracey and Crawley out of position are the telling selections aren't they, Sibley/Burns up top for the first test is clear then. With Root out you imagine Crawley and Denly at 3/4 is the obvious choice. Hope Leach does well!
Just spotted it's 13 v 14, disappointing. Would have been a lot of fun to make it a proper game and televise it.
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Is Virdi injured?? There has been lots of video on social media of him bowling etc.... I mean he's never going to play but it's interesting he's not in either side.
Definitely a shame it's not televised, Jofra vs Stokes would have been a great watch.
This has to be Buttler's last chance saloon, even with Ed Smith's man love, as Buzz puts it.
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The game will be live streamed on the ECB website from 11.
Virdi isn't going to get picked ahead of Leach, Mo or Bess which is why he isn't playing.
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The game will be live streamed on the ECB website from 11.
Virdi isn't going to get picked ahead of Leach, Mo or Bess which is why he isn't playing.
Excellent may take a look.
Just noticed that Jamie Overton has also not been selected. But he was behind lots in the seamers list.
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Two teams have been selected for the three-day intra squad match starting tomorrow. The teams will be captained by Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler.
Team Stokes: Dominic Sibley, Keaton Jennings, Zak Crawley, Jonathan Bairstow, Ben Stokes (c), Ben Foakes, Moeen Ali, Lewis Gregory, Craig Overton, Jack Leach, Olly Stone, James Anderson, Saqib Mahmood.
Team Buttler: Rory Burns, James Bracey, Joe Denly, Dan Lawrence, Ollie Pope, Jos Buttler (c), Sam Curran, Chris Woakes, Dominic Bess, Mark Wood, Jofra Archer, Stuart Broad, Matthew Parkinson, Ollie Robinson.
Funny old mix.
Seems a shoot out between Laurence, Crawley and Denly for two spots in the XI, with Crawley and Denly favourites.
Bowling will be Jofra, Jimmy and Broad, which leaves the spinner, the windiest only have one leftie, the rest are righties, which means you need a SLA rather than an offie, but Mo is experienced and is the better batsman of the three.
Ed Smith has excessive man love for Buttler. It is boring.
Wouldn't be sleeping well if I was Sibley Jennings or Crawley this evening! Wood and Archer both fully fit and bowling for one spot in the test XI.....
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Bracey looks a proper player!
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Joe Denly is a lucky boy. Two dreadful wafty play and misses off Mahmood followed by off pole knocked back... no ball!
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Bracey looks a proper player!
50 up for the Glos lad!
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Does anyone have a link to the live stream?
I have been trying to navigate the ECB site, but it says no live matches today.
Eager for a fix...
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https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1703010/watch-live-england-men-intra-squad-match (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1703010/watch-live-england-men-intra-squad-match)
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
No problem :)
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Pitch looks quite flat. There doesnt seem to be any juice in the surface. Disappointing.
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Pitch looks quite flat. There doesnt seem to be any juice in the surface. Disappointing.
Surely it’s beneficial for the batsmen to find their form after the pandemic, rather than playing on a spicy wicket and eroding their confidence? West Indies have a gun attack as well.
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Surely it’s beneficial for the batsmen to find their form after the pandemic, rather than playing on a spicy wicket and eroding their confidence? West Indies have a gun attack as well.
All the more reason to throw challenges at them. Lets hope the test matches have better pitches!
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https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1703010/watch-live-england-men-intra-squad-match (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1703010/watch-live-england-men-intra-squad-match)
Thanks!
Some cricket finally.
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Will Bracey be in contention for selection or will it be the same old stuff from the England selectors ?
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Suggest he probably needed Denly to fail unless England want to make a change with the openers which I don't see happening
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Yeah I don't think Bracey would have been anywhere near selection before this game started, so he'd have to do some serious leapfrogging to get in the test side which seems unlikely. Can't be doing his chances any harm though!
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Why is Moeen Ali not getting a bowl? If he supposed to be playing as a batsman?
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Bracey strangled down the leg side for 85
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Bracey and Lawrence both look very strong. Leach looks like he had a hard day though!
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I watched most of it, I don't think Leach bowled that badly, denly was quite severe on him at points
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Short highlights of the day - https://www.ecb.co.uk/video/1704155/team-stokes-v-team-buttler-highlights-watch-day-1-of-england-s-intra-squad-match (https://www.ecb.co.uk/video/1704155/team-stokes-v-team-buttler-highlights-watch-day-1-of-england-s-intra-squad-match)
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If Leach has got a bit of tap today it won't help at all. On the basis he is the best or specialist spinner, Ali will move into prime position.
I think myself England just need any sign to leave him out and bring Moeen in. Virdi hasn't played but again, if he has potential can he also bat?
Leach and Bess to me seem the best players but England like Ali.
Could be wrong of course!
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Is just me imagining this or did Foakes keeping on the first day a clear message to Bairstow that he is behind Buttler and Foakes as keeper? If he wants back in the team it will be as a specialist batsmen?
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Is just me imagining this or did Foakes keeping on the first day a clear message to Bairstow that he is behind Buttler and Foakes as keeper? If he wants back in the team it will be as a specialist batsmen?
He should be behind those 2 but if he does play again can't believe it would be as a batsman alone. There's a few ahead of him in the que. He would have to displace the current keeper. You can't really hit your way out of trouble with test match fields.
As a batsman Denly,Lawrence and new guy Bracey, Root to come back for the second test should be ahead. No one mentions Joe Clarke anymore and he's highly rated.
So it's crowded if he's not keeping as well
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Virdi is a genuine tail ender with the bat. Good spot on the keepers and YJB.
Mo bowled better than Leach today, despite Leach getting first go. Honestly Leach looked very very rusty. Mo looked sharper.
Pope and Laurence were playing beautifully. They looked a class above from what I saw today.
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I watched the majority of the day.
And my overriding thoughts were -
1. The bowlers definitely look rusty and it must be a nightmare to get fully up the speed at that level
2. Lawrence is still in ridiculous nick after his winter Lions tour
3. Our batting stocks are alot deeper than our bowling or the teams are skewed and not picked correctly.
I was impressed with Bracey considering he was facing Jimmy (albeit rusty) with the new cherry I thought he did well.
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Bracey looks very very well organised and surprised me with his technique. Read a stat that there was only 3/4 players who played and missed less than he did in FC cricket last year. Definitely one on the radar and another WK/batsman!
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Cant wait to see Jofra and Wood steaming in today against Stokes XI :). Wonder if Buttler will let them bowl in tandem.
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Lawrence looked a class act to me - very "Rooty". Busy at the crease, kept the scoreboard ticking, ran hard between the wickets but solid in defence when needed.
Early days clearly but he and Pope look like they could be England's engine room for years.
Interesting how many young batsman have clearly based their game or at least mannerisms/style on Root these days - Pope is another who looks very similar and there are a few others dotted around.
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Cant wait to see Jofra and Wood steaming in today against Stokes XI :). Wonder if Buttler will let them bowl in tandem.
Interesting overnight declaration by Stokes..... early signs of his aggressive captaincy?? :D :D :D
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Lawrence looked a class act to me - very "Rooty". Busy at the crease, kept the scoreboard ticking, ran hard between the wickets but solid in defence when needed.
Early days clearly but he and Pope look like they could be England's engine room for years.
Interesting how many young batsman have clearly based their game or at least mannerisms/style on Root these days - Pope is another who looks very similar and there are a few others dotted around.
Think it's the influence of limited overs cricket. If you're not naturally a big hitter you need to find a way to score in 50/20 overs at an acceptable strike rate.
Root's record in ODIs is phenomenal so it's perhaps not surprising that players like Pope and Lawrence, who don't seem to be naturally big hitting players, have adopted Root's approach.
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Wish they were also televising the WI warm up game...that looks a lot more action packed! :)
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I believe Lawrence also bowls some 'filthy spin'
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Having played against Marquino Mindley before, he's sharp but didn't look a test bowler but he went well in the first WI warm up game.
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burns sibley and jennings all gone for 20 or less
crawley at the crease with johnny
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burns sibley and jennings all gone for 20 or less
crawley at the crease with johnny
Burns looked really rusty yesterday - fair enough considering how long he's been out injured as well
Sibley strangled down leg which can happen
Jennings just meh, especially I guy whose meant to be better against spin
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totally agree, crawley seems to be getting into his work and looking more comfortable now... watch him get out now!
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Oh look, the booming drive from Bairstow. Doesn't seem to have learned...
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2 fours in the over then that from YJB, only just switched it on, but am hardly surprised...
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YJB done himself no favours there, big opportunity for foakes. To me its clear that England see Buttler and Foakes as the keeping options based on this game
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I thought JB looked better today than he has in ages. So no big score, but he technique looked in better order.
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Banging the rather obvious drum here but bloody hell Stokes is good
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WE HAVE IT HAPPENING
Stokes and Foakes facing Woakes
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Loving the headbands on the quicks, hope they make a comeback internationally...Jimmy, Broad and Woakes. Wonder if its a style statement or more because barbers have been closed! :D
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This is some absolute dross from Parkinson
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and he gets stokes!
Is parkinson really the best leggy we have?
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and he gets stokes!
Is parkinson really the best leggy we have?
It's between him and Mason Crane who's had injury problems, so I don't think we're spoilt for choice.
Other candidates are Joe Denly or Gary Ballance...
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oh crickey! thats not ideal! Adil rashid a big miss then!
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I thought JB looked better today than he has in ages. So no big score, but he technique looked in better order.
Interesting to hear, I didn't get a chance to watch much today but thought the clip of him getting out looked like he'd changed the wrong things - adding a trigger seems unlikely to help with the backlift.
Reports Bess bowled nicely? Ball to get Keaton certainly looked very tidy, likely team starting to become more obvious bar the seamers.
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Interesting to hear, I didn't get a chance to watch much today but thought the clip of him getting out looked like he'd changed the wrong things - adding a trigger seems unlikely to help with the backlift.
Reports Bess bowled nicely? Ball to get Keaton certainly looked very tidy, likely team starting to become more obvious bar the seamers.
Bess has definitely been the best spinner on show so far in the match. Big day today for Leach and Moeen one would think. The lack of leg spinning talent in this country really surprises me. Parkinson got Stokes out but lacked control in general.
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what do we think the side will be?
burns, sibley, crawley, denly, stokes, pope, buttler, bess, archer, broad, anderson
or would we have Lawrence at 4 denly at 3? bracey a late call up to bat at 3?
Id personally still do with denly to add some experience to what could be a very green top order and burns deserve his chance to come back in after injury
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I'm going to throw a cheeky alternative out there (not saying I want to see this, especially as it includes B***ler) but:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Denly
Pope
Stokes
Lawrence
Buttler
Archer
Broad/Wood
Anderson
Aegas Bowl is not a raging bunsen, and Lawrence and Denly can both bowl some overs...
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Can anyone actually tell me, or suggest a possible reason why Foakes isnt 1st choice WK. I really really really really dont understand it
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Can anyone actually tell me, or suggest a possible reason why Foakes isnt 1st choice WK. I really really really really dont understand it
He had a poor season with the bat last year and England management seem to prioritise runs from the WK, rather than pure keeping ability.
Bairstow and Buttler have both scored some significant Test runs in the past and England selectors seem to be selecting them on the basis that they might do again.
Really poor selection IMO and hopefully Foakes takes his chance when he eventually gets it again.
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We have a problem with Leach vs Bess.
Leach has looked well short of overs but as a SLA he will be a better option against the right handers in the wi team
Bess however looks a much better spinner.
Seems Bracey should be the first choice keeper batsman... 🤣😂
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Pope at 4 this innings is an interesting decision, purely for time in the middle or a clue to a change of plan?
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We have a problem with Leach vs Bess.
Leach has looked well short of overs but as a SLA he will be a better option against the right handers in the wi team
Bess however looks a much better spinner.
How is it a problem?
If you're looking for a spinner to bowl to left handers/dry things up you'd pick Bess.
If you're looking for a spinner to bowl to right handers/dry things up you'd pick Leach.
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Lawrence pushed down the order....
No chance of playing or decision made and no need to see him again?!
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anyone else been dissapointed with mo and leach?
seem massively down and struggling here, i know theres been a long break but bess has been so much better, that being said leach looks better than mo!
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anyone else been dissapointed with mo and leach?
seem massively down and struggling here, i know theres been a long break but bess has been so much better, that being said leach looks better than mo!
From what I've seen this afternoon, the field is out for Leach as they're trying to set a declaration - some horrendously filthy slogs from Woakes and Pope that wouldn't look out of place in any village game. Not sure what the guy can do when there's no-one inside the 30 yd circle and the batsmen are trying to hit every one of your deliveries to the moon.
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Declaration. Target is 255.
And Bairstow is opening!
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Bairstow opening: why?
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Bairstow opening: why?
chance to score a few and give the selectors an excuse to pick him
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Please don't let a breezy 39 be enough to warrant a recall...
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This is brutal Stokesy
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Can anyone actually tell me, or suggest a possible reason why Foakes isnt 1st choice WK. I really really really really dont understand it
Me either. I could understand if the powers that be deemed Bairstow their number one, just about, though it relies upon a certain amount of "well, he's done it before..." and tbh the idea of telling him to go back to Yorkshire and murder some county attacks has some credibility, but Buttler has not scored meaningful test runs, and is actually a pretty bad gloveman nowadays.
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Butler is a very special player and England I reckon are giving him some extra time to do well, a few mores games rather than less as Bayliss used to say. He was also VC until recently so has been well ingrained into the team.
The England side is changing thou, with Sibley,Burns,Crawley and Bess coming thru-the team is starting to be built a bit.
I expect Denly(big fan of his) to make way soon for Crawley to bat 3.
I think Foakes will come into the team and stay there for a long while maybe as soon as the Pakistan series. He's on his own as a keeper and a good bat with a FC record behind him.
Recent years has always been a keeper batsman but my money is on a proper keeper soon. The fact Foakes is a very good bat rather than a Bairstow(recent years) or Butler(lean period for 12 months) helps.
I also think the spinner will be a batter too-Bess or Ali- so that could cover Foakes although there's no need with Bairstow or Butlers record.
Been wrong before thou. :)
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If Woakes becomes a more regular part of the pace attack then that strengthens the batting too.
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Bess picked in 13 man squad
Leach one of 9 reserves
Ali misses out completely
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Typical english start!
hopefully Sibley will learn from that, not a good leave early on
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Burns was pretty lucky doing exactly the same, if it hadn't clipped the pad.
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3 bad leaves stick out for me, burns 3rd ball, sibley wicket and denly in the 4th over was lucky not to lose his off stump
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Should probably reserve judgement given they didn't have much to work with today, but oh dear the BBC highlights programme was not very good.
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I thought Sibley was a tad unfortunate tbh. Bad leave granted but Gabriel doesn't normally get much movement.
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As the old saying goes...... there are only 2 types of leave
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Denly gone for a half Dentury
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Crackerjack delivery from Gabriel to get Denly, pretty sharp is big Shannon.
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Plumb! Not sure why that wasn't given
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Same old story then
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Denly gone for a half Dentury
same old technical flaw from Denly.
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Is Stokes playing with a Noir or is that a #BlackLivesMatters spl bat?
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Sigh
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Is Stokes playing with a Noir or is that a #BlackLivesMatters spl bat?
BLM, it's got diamond written on it, I thought the same!
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It’s fascinating watching bowlers like Holder and Roach, more artists than brute force.
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This is looking like an awful decision bat the toss.. didn't understand it then, certainty don't now
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I see the bowling on this deck and would take Broad's skillset over having two speed-freaks every time
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This is looking like an awful decision bat the toss.. didn't understand it then, certainty don't now
The best test matches are often the ones where the decision at the toss is a very difficult one. The pitch looks dry and I can understand why England don't want to bat last on it, but batting first will be tough given the conditions. This is what test cricket should be like in my view, not like playing in India or Australia where you bat first every time and wait for the pitch to deteriorate
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i get that completely i just think we had the opportunity to get the game won, or close to with the ball first time round then try and bat once 2nd innings of the game
but its going to make an interesting game, we've heard all about how the Windies strength is with the ball so we'll see
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Any link to watch live outside UK?
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Take windies didn’t practice much catching over the last month - stokes dropped twice and that was a sitter
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3rd time lucky
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Jos securing himself an international summer with a 30 odd
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Jos securing himself an international summer with a 30 odd
If Foakes doesn't get a go after this then he never will. Buttler doesn't add anything Foakes doesn't in Test cricket.
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Also Bess has a new sponsor now with DSC after the winter using keeley
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Kettleborough having a shocker!!
another plumb LBW not given
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I mean, that looked incredibly high.
This has been awful
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Jos securing himself an international summer with a 30 odd
He'd already secured it with his plummy public school tones when the Beeb interviewed him yesterday!
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Hope has his entire palms taped up, surely not allowed
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He'd already secured it with his plummy public school tones when the Beeb interviewed him yesterday!
That was a lowlight, 4 minutes of interview with a player who'd taken no part whatsoever in the day's play.
Thought Buttler batted quite well today, slim pickings though... The over Stokes got out was some pretty dim batting.
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Also Bess has a new sponsor now with DSC after the winter using keeley
As has kraigg brathwaite now with mids from GN
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First innings after such an extended break with no practice. Not fair being too critical. Also Windies bowled really well. Think someone like Holder is well suited to English conditions.
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Are the WI openers wearing adidas bowling shoes ?
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Holder has really binded this side together, more remarkable as some of their bigger names show no interest in Test cricket.
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Another poor umpiring decision
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Clearly Windies and Pak have their work cut out preparing for their reviews as looks like they will need them dearly! :D
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Have we had a correct decision yet?
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Now we do!
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Thank God, can't think of a player who triggers me more with fluking it than Campbell
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Another poor umpiring decision
People need to stop looking at umpires in isolation. Umpires + DRS have gotten it right - that’s what matters. Can we stop getting triggered every time DRS overturns an umpire decision ? The system is working.
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People need to stop looking at umpires in isolation. Umpires + DRS have gotten it right - that’s what matters. Can we stop getting triggered every time DRS overturns an umpire decision ? The system is working.
Yeah but the three overturned in our innings shouldn't have needed a review, the umpires should be getting them right at the very least
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Holder has really binded this side together, more remarkable as some of their bigger names show no interest in Test cricket.
Excellent player who is leading the team well and putting in good performances
It looks like a typical early season wicket with movement and overhead conditions are perfect for a tall seamer.
We will not know how Broad would of bowled but Holder has been just right for the conditions
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Yeah but the three overturned in our innings shouldn't have needed a review, the umpires should be getting them right at the very least
Behave!! Holder wasn't even convinced about reviewing the Archer one. Crawley hit his pad and the umpire presumably thought it was an inside edge which you see happen quite a lot. It's not like they were all pitched middle and were hitting halfway up middle.
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The umpiring standard has been absolute (No Swearing Please). These two clown umpires will even make Joel Wilson look good. Might as well let technology make all the decisions than these clown make decisions out in the middle.
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The BBC's TV commentary team is just god awful, worst I've heard in years.
I cannot stand Alison Mitchell and how she screams into the mic when something eventful happens.
Also they have tried to make player stats all exciting by adding music.
Can they not just show the sky highlights instead 🤣
Oh and yes the umpiring has been dreadfull too
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Still failing to see the reasons for playing both Archer and Wood together, Broad would have at least pitched the thing up
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Nearly 4 months of lockdown and we finally get cricket back and it's all moan moan moan with the odd comment on how good Holder is. :(
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The BBC's TV commentary team is just god awful, worst I've heard in years.
Someone needs to point out to them that just editing the radio commentary to fit isn't producing good results. Haven't watched today's yet, did they manage to show more than 20 minutes of cricket this time?
People moaning about how Stuart Broad should have been playing because he'd have pitched it up is 'bring back Ian Bell at 3' levels of hilarious.
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I think it's only fair to criticise both performance and selection when it's warranted, granted Holder showed his class but it is the same old England batting collapse time and time again.
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I don't see all the doom and gloom tbh, West Indies are equally as vulnerable as us to we could easily blow through them tomorrow.
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same old technical flaw from Denly.
Technical flaw!! That ball he got was a seed and would have got many many players out.
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same old technical flaw from Denly.
Is this a joke????
There is literally nothing he could do about that delivery, it was an absolute peach of a ball. No batsman in the world is keeping that out.
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Is this a joke????
There is literally nothing he could do about that delivery, it was an absolute peach of a ball. No batsman in the world is keeping that out.
Nasser had a good point about Denly though, he does have that habit of planting his front foot. Rob Key played with him long enough to spot it so it's not a new thing by all accounts.
Yes, it was a great delivery, but it wasn't unplayable and Denly has got out to worse balls in the past due to the same technical issue.
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Nasser had a good point about Denly though, he does have that habit of planting his front foot. Rob Key played with him long enough to spot it so it's not a new thing by all accounts.
Yes, it was a great delivery, but it wasn't unplayable and Denly has got out to worse balls in the past due to the same technical issue.
He's a very watchable player, and I'm not disagreeing that he has some technical flaws otherwise he would be scoring more heavily.
I'll have to disagree about that delivery. Even the commentators/analytsts were saying that Denly played the right line, but the ball was just too good.
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Nasser had a good point about Denly though, he does have that habit of planting his front foot. Rob Key played with him long enough to spot it so it's not a new thing by all accounts.
Yes, it was a great delivery, but it wasn't unplayable and Denly has got out to worse balls in the past due to the same technical issue.
Looked very Bairstow - not sure the batting coaches are really doing a lot.
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Is this a joke????
There is literally nothing he could do about that delivery, it was an absolute peach of a ball. No batsman in the world is keeping that out.
One who didn't plant his front foot and leave a yawning chasm between bat and pad might have had a better chance, and the point is more how often he gets done by a straight one.
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Broad trying not to throw his toys about about being dropped, can tell how wound up he is.
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Love you Stu
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Still failing to see the reasons for playing both Archer and Wood together, Broad would have at least pitched the thing up
You're joking aren't you? He's been one of the worst culprits in recent years for not pitching it up and hitting the stumps. It would;ve taken most of the day before he got it right.
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How comes each side has 3 reviews per innings?
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How comes each side has 3 reviews per innings?
No neutral umpires
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Broad trying not to throw his toys about about being dropped, can tell how wound up he is.
Didnt mind that tbf, i thought he spoke well, was honest and gave good insight. i liked what he said about all the bowlers being in decent form and could have been picked.
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No neutral umpires
Logic would say Windies should have one extra!
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Perfect batting conditions now
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Love the look of that MIDS bat that Brathwaite is using. Anyone know whether MIDS actually make his bat, or just stickered up?
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You're joking aren't you? He's been one of the worst culprits in recent years for not pitching it up and hitting the stumps. It would;ve taken most of the day before he got it right.
Have you watched much cricket recently? Granted Broad used to opt for the length and back approach far too often. But we are going back 3+ years. For the last couple hes been superb
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No ball 🤦♂️
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Sigh
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That’s just village smh
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Hope has some sharpie on his toe - hope they spelt his name right
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Don’t think picking Broad or Wood or Archer is really the issue. Seems like Stokes’ decision at the toss could be the deciding factor tbh. If the West Indies get a lead of 100-150 we might be doomed.
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It's a real shame that Hope will spend his test career dining off that one match at Headingley in exchange for what are stellar ODI numbers
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Braithwaith must wear kids pads, that’s hit him over the pads and still shown as going on to hit the bails
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Weird review, that one
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Its as though they don't trust the umpires after the first 2 days, some of the decisions today have been decent tbf to them
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Jermaine Blackwood loves a hack
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Archer bowling pies at 82mph - doesn’t seem to be able to back the speed up spell after spell
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Can we have the Ashes 2019 version of Archer please
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Utter tripe. Again, if he can't up the pace I'm failing to see where he warrants selection
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Think Archer's finding out it's more physically demanding playing red ball cricket, than being a T20 gun. Where you party as much as you play.
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Said it before as have a few others, I think he will be short lived in 5 day cricket and mainly be a limited overs/franchise player sooner rather than later
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Poor field from stokes, only two slips and a third man with the new ball - windies won’t mind this
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Please take the ball out of Archer's hands and give it to someone else. He is wasting the new ball. No pace or consistency at all.
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Nice sharpie on holder's bat. Can't be a genuine pro bat??
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There you go. He's out. Must be a fake 😂😂
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Holder must be using his old SS stock
Joseph using a keeley
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Got to hand it to Stokes, just digs in
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I got to watch the game the last 15 minutes or so of the WI innings.
1) I did not hear a lot of encouragement from the team for each other.
2) Kind of surprised that Butler and Stokes were not chatting about field placement especially after Joseph just dangling the bat out to get couple of boundaries past the slip cordon.
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I got to watch the game the last 15 minutes or so of the WI innings.
1) I did not hear a lot of encouragement from the team for each other.
2) Kind of surprised that Butler and Stokes were not chatting about field placement especially after Joseph just dangling the bat out to get couple of boundaries past the slip cordon.
I listened to it all and watched the hour highlights on BBC.
On 2, perhaps Butler and Stokes were wondering why one of the two bowlers capable of real pace sent down a lot of medium pace ones, leg stump half volleys you would not set a field for in a club game let alone a Test match.
By the end of the day there's not much left to say.
In contrast Wood was bending his action out of shape to get some hurry up into their batting.
I appreciate lots on here had no problem with Broad being left out but I said at the time it's a harsh call.
Archer bowls within himself a lot of the matches I've seen and I'm real sorry to burst the bubble but if it's a choice between a fast medium bowler who gives 100 per cent and a proven test record or someone quicker who does not then it's no choice at all.
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I have watched alot live so far and all 3 days highlights.
I think we have mis-read the pitch in picking the team, in thinking it was going to be alot quicker than it actually is. And we are quite possibly going to regret flogging Wood to much so he can't play later on in the series etc...
I feel the wicket is why Archer is bowling why he is more than anything, we have seen before when the wicket is slower and not doing much he drops his speed and tries much for line and length and variety, he was bowling knuckle balls today!
Overall though I can't get over the fact that we didn't bowl 1st. People have said that you have to look down rather than up when making your decision at the toss, I am sorry that's garbage! You have the best swing bowler in the world, a weather forecast that Michael Fish wasn't going to get wrong, an opposition whose batting is far far worse than their bowling, and a top 6 that hasn't batted for months! Sometimes you don't just see a 'dry' pitch and go yep let's have a bat as it's test cricket. It is still possible to win a test batting once if you bowl first.
I will happily eat these words, Bess my take a bundle on the last day (he has bowled very well) after we rack up a lead but I really can't see it.
PS - sorry for the downbeat tone
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Seems like we have a road now, and Burns and Sibley going nicely. That being said, it's effectively a Day 3 pitch.
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Pitch starting to misbehave,
Going up and down, puffs of dust from the surface starting to appear
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Soft from Burns that! Half played cut straight to backward point
Looked set for a biggie there too!
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That was awful from Denly
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Wonderimg when SF will bring out a Denly30 model.
I don't see how you can do that much hard work then get out on such a consistent basis. Time to move on
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Denly, lovely chap, unfortunately isn’t good enough for the highest level. In the long run we are better off blooding Crawley as he’s potentially got a 10 year career ahead of him.
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I know denly hasn't got the big score but he has used up balls which we were crying out for 2 years ago, he has prevented us from being 20-2 every game, yes it's a out runs but he has sured up our too order a little
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Stokes' on drive really is a thing of beauty
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I know denly hasn't got the big score but he has used up balls which we were crying out for 2 years ago, he has prevented us from being 20-2 every game, yes it's a out runs but he has sured up our too order a little
I don't disagree, but is Crawley a way behind him? I'd rather get Crawley in at 3 and Root back at 4. I then really like the look of the top 6.
Call me greedy, but I want my number 3 scoring runs. The argument for an experienced, veteran player coming in is that he knows his game, like Rogers, Voges,, Misbah. Denly seems to lack concentration and i do accept we haven't been spoiled for choice. Crawley is out playing him and should be given the role
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Can anyone explain why Stokes is walking so far across? Seems like he wants to hot everything to leg?
I understand getting onto off stump but he's way outside!
Feel for Crawley there looked the business!
This is the position buttler has been picked for, decent ish platform still need runs! If he fails that has to be it!
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I know denly hasn't got the big score but he has used up balls which we were crying out for 2 years ago, he has prevented us from being 20-2 every game, yes it's a out runs but he has sured up our too order a little
Dead right he has done just that most games. I’m a Denly can think he is a good player.
He hasn’t quite done enough thou in the last year.
If this is his last game he has battled and done a job.
Ideally like Crawley and him both to play but it will only be one
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I suppose this is a better position to be in, arguing over who to leave out rather than struggling to pick someone!
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That HAS to be it for buttler, needed to stand up in a situation made for him.
#whereisfoakes
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Drop Denly, Crawley has shown he can bat time and score runs and Denly isn't an option going forward.
Buttler has to go as well, just isn't cutting it in Tests. Bring in Foakes who is a far superior keeper and has a game more naturally geared to Test cricket.
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Foakes deserves a run in the side, more so as we have tours of Sri Lanka and India after Christmas and the best keeper has to play in those conditions
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Well, that's the defeat sewn up then.
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Game over!
We havnt been good enough but out ourselves under undue pressure with the toss, not enough first innings runs then soft dismissals when we were getting on top today! Gonna take something special from our quicks to win this now even then it will be West Indies who have lost it.
1-0 early on in a series again
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I think it’s time for Denly to be given the chop, he’s done a great job over the past year or so but with the emergence of Crawley I think it’s time to give him a good run at 3 as he is the future and potentially has a bright future ahead of him.
It’s also time for Foakes to take the gloves and for Buttler to stick to white ball cricket. Foakes is way better adapted to test cricket and will get ugly runs when needed.
On the bowling front, although I like archer I think he has to make way for either Woakes or broad in the next test
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The more I see of Crawley, the more I like. The technique will be examined over time, but he has a bit of ticker - he played one awful hack at Chase, narrowly escaped an embarrassing catch at point because there was no point - his response was perfect - smiled, nodded and got his head down. Denly - for all he has that technical fault where he plants the front dog - is a little unlucky, but this is too good of a chace to give the young lad five more tests under relatively low pressure.
Buttler though, has to go. Want a pure keeper, go to Foakes, want a much better version of the role they have sculpted for him, back to Bairstow (ok, I know Jonny is not going to handle media duties in a public school burr). But not Buttler, he's just not test class.
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The choice as keeper is pretty straightforward - Buttler or Foakes. Bairstow has already been kicked into touch
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I just despair
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I just despair
About cricket, or life in general?
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About cricket, or life in general?
First one, then the other.
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So are we thinking that Root comes in, with Denly dropped... And then Broad for Archer?
Bess seems decent.
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So are we thinking that Root comes in, with Denly dropped... And then Broad for Archer?
Bess seems decent.
Yeah but i think they may go broad for Anderson or wood then bring Jonny back for the 3rd
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Yeah but i think they may go broad for Anderson or wood then bring Jonny back for the 3rd
Bess has done well and looks good in the few games I've seen.
Broad for Anderson is interesting. It may turn in the forth innings maybe which would help Bess.
In my view the best option to get us wickets tomorrow is Anderson....rotation of bowlers I get, but leaving out our best bowler?
I think they have made a bad call this Test on Broad, if they did leave out Jimmy that would be two bad calls.
Choosing between Wood, Archer, Broad if Jimmy is not rotated Wood if fit plays with Broad.
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Bess has done well and looks good in the few games I've seen.
Broad for Anderson is interesting. It may turn in the forth innings maybe which would help Bess.
In my view the best option to get us wickets tomorrow is Anderson....rotation of bowlers I get, but leaving out our best bowler?
I think they have made a bad call this Test on Broad, if they did leave out Jimmy that would be two bad calls.
Choosing between Wood, Archer, Broad if Jimmy is not rotated Wood if fit plays with Broad.
That's what I'd like to see but not sure the selectors will
I'd also like to see wood and Bess take 5 each and us win!
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With the bowling selections it would be good to see England actually selecting bowlers based on the pitch and conditions. If it's going to be swinging round corners you don't need 90mph+ bowling to take wickets, etc.
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That's the weird thing as per Broad's interview i.e pitch for pitch; got this one unbelievably wrong
Also how on Earth has Buttler managed to play 41 test matches
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Old Trafford's pitch should have more pace and bounce than this one (but you just don't know because nothing has been on it at all). But that puts the selectors in a bit of a position because if they are selecting pitch by pitch then Archer and Wood play again. Bess has to play. So you are then looking to switch Broad for Anderson? And where is Woakes in the argument who is a home specialist really.
As for the batting it has to be Root for Denly. Crawley is the future and if you aren't going to give him a run now when are you?
I just despair with Buttler, will be interesting if they drop him missed series, but I can't see it. I actually reckon he will get this and the Pakistan series, then Smith can say they have picked Foakes for the sub-continent conditions etc...
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Yeah although I think buttler may go to the sun continent and a batter, he did well in Sri Lanka last time out there
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That's the weird thing as per Broad's interview i.e pitch for pitch; got this one unbelievably wrong
Also how on Earth has Buttler managed to play 41 test matches
Whiteball init..
He's very good at whiteball so people naturally think he will be able to play red ball. Bairstow had his purple patch but outside that... rubbish. and yet, even now.. people keep talking about him in red ball and even reading people saying bring him back!!
People seem to forget it's even mor eso now than ever.. a totally different game. Especially at Pro level. Even at amateur level, look around your teams who are in the top 4 and wonder how many of them would have the skill, talent, technique and mentality to be able to bat consistently long periods on non super flat decks... Even at amateur level teams are throwing in middle order dashers to open now in the hunt for 300+ week inw eek out
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Just a massive no ball there
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And another, no? I missed the replay on that
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Not convinced that's enough runs but something to bowl at. Love seeing Archer having a go at the end either way.
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So much better from Jofra
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Think England have enough with this windies batting line up
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Think England have enough with this windies batting line up
Getting Braithwaite early could be massive, Windies middle order collapses like England's does.
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Jofra looks up for it this innings
And as I type he bowls 5 wides
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Pitching it up is working. Any chance of a Chase is all down to Hope
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Yes woody! Hope gone!
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What a peach!
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How was that umpires call?
That was taking middle pole out of the ground!
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Genuinely baffled by that
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DRS has baffled me this test
That Bess review had more than half the ball hitting, yet umpires call
Burns in the first innings dismissal suddenly stopped swinging after it had hit him
Holder getting Archer in first innings looked very high and somehow hit the stumps enough to be out. How was Bess judged going over too much, but Holder nearly a foot taller and quick bowler wasnt going over.
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Foakes would have held that
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Drs has been off in this game I agree
But we need a wicket! Or 2/3 quickly now
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Pretty naff fielding errors in the last few overs. Two drops and a missed run out
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Game over, I think
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I hate to agree, this is where I thought we'd struggle trying to bowl a side out without a crowd to roar us home
Out a crowd in and it's a different game
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All these modern grounds have speakers so why can’t they play pre recorded chanting ?
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Bit of a snorter
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Archer clearly doesn’t want to be the one axed for the next test, cracking delivery
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Need a burst now! Get into Joseph roach and Gabriel anything can happen! They're looking solid though!
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Would like to see Stokes bowling, he makes things happen and we are running out of chances
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poor from england, going to take a miracle from here!
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Stokes!
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Stokes so good he gets Dowrich twice
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Will the ICC be allowing artificial substances to be used on the ball? Seems unfair on swing bowlers eg Anderson. Obviously he’s nearing the end and it’s like he’ll be wasted unless there’s some sort of compromise
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It wont matter, but what has Blackwood done there? Thrown a hundred away!
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Stokes’ should’ve bowled more. Always makes something happen
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It's too late but no one can say we have not had chances, plus 200 last innings to win you have to credit the Windies as well thou.
I thought myself they would cause us problems first game
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Stokes’ should’ve bowled more. Always makes something happen
Definatley but presume he has some issue with his toe which might explain it
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With 6 runs needed, i think we all know the result.
So im gonna start the post match discussions now with some positives!
Zak Crawley is starting to look like a test player, a nervous starter but deserves a run in the side, archer has looked better second innings and Bess is definitely our best spinner (he should have bowled more this innings imo)
also Ben Foakes has got a much better player again during this game without playing, he just cant be ignored for much longer he just cant.
now the negatives, the toss was wrong we needed broad and batted terribly first dig and the evening session day 4. Toss put us under undue pressure with a very green and untested top order.
but the most important thing to say, Well done West Indies, the better side won!
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Wrong decision at the toss but we fought until the end and we weren’t far from almost getting over the line.
Three changes for Manchester:
Root > Denly
Leach > Bess
Broad > Anderson
Stokes showed no faith at all in Bess today and West Indies have 10 right handers, so Leach is a better option.
Anderson faded a bit today. Let him get refreshed for the third test.
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No way should Bess be replaced, Stokes is stand in skipper, and he picked the quick men so they had to bowl
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Essentially a fourth day pitch with wear and Bess was unthreatening.
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I think Bess bowled pretty well, just doesn't help much when you've got these massive footholes they've only one leftie in the team.
For me, Root, Foakes and Broad in for Denly, Buttler and Wood; Buttler is a luxury player this team cannot afford to have when it suffers from batting collapse time and time again.
No issues with the toss and thought Stokes captained the side pretty well, just didn't bat well enough in either innings; 50 more runs and it'd possibly be more interesting.
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Yep well done the West Indies.
Dropping Broad with no sign he is getting worse(his record over the last 18 months it's pretty good) was a mistake. The toss did play a part but normally the team that plays better still wins over 4 or 5 days.
Our team has had some changes, a few players with not much experience, that's why I think Denly can do a job but....Crawley will improve so one of those two Crawley should stay when Root comes back.
Bes has bowled well perhaps a bit unlucky.
Keeping I'm a big fan of specialist keeper, as it happens Foakes also is a good bat with a FC record which is perfectly good enough.
Foakes in for me, not back to Bairstow. bowlers are a bit more tricky, Archer kicked on in the second innings, where was he in the first?
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The selection and toss are linked. Pick Broad and you bowl with those overheads first but with Wood and Archer you looking at batting first and using their extra pace on a fourth innings up and down deck. The flaw a day was lost and not enough runs to defend. Well done Windies any away win is a very good win. I know it is hindsight but I would have picked Broad instead of Wood and bowled first. I agree on Foakes I don't think there could be a player who has been more unfairly treated considering the amount of chances some others have got. The problem is that would be three changes if Root in for Denly too and they don't like doing that. Arguably Leach for Bess too and there's four changes.
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Wheres this Leach for bess come from? bess bowled well in this game, kept it tidy and took key first innings wickets, underused in the second
Did well in south africa when called upon and was the pick in the warm up game too
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Wheres this Leach for bess come from? bess bowled well in this game, kept it tidy and took key first innings wickets, underused in the second
Did well in south africa when called upon and was the pick in the warm up game too
That is where it comes from not bowled in second innings. As a captain if you don't bowl someone you don't fancy them. The fact he wasn't bowled much means why pick him. Pick someone you will bowl. I like him as a cricketer but you would normally have your spinner bowling all day at one end on the final day and didn't happen. The fact they have few left handers suggests he is at risk. His biggest wicket taking delivery is undercutter and did they believe he could bowl them out today the fact he bowled so little suggests not.
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Wheres this Leach for bess come from? bess bowled well in this game, kept it tidy and took key first innings wickets, underused in the second
Did well in south africa when called upon and was the pick in the warm up game too
If South Africa’s the barometer it’s irrelevant they can’t play spin at all.
West Indies have 10 right handers, could be 11 in the next match if Campbell’s foot is broken.
Bess was ‘under bowled’ because he couldn’t create pressure.
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Not sure I'm following the last couple of comments
Bess didn't bowl enough because we didn't have enough runs for him that Stokes could set attacking fields?
Bess did not bowl enough because regardless of the runs we had he still couldn't bowl a tight enough line?
How is any finger spinner to get wickets if the batsmen don't think a mistake will get them out, as in a close catchers around the wicket not caught at deep mid on?
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If South Africa’s the barometer it’s irrelevant they can’t play spin at all.
West Indies have 10 right handers, could be 11 in the next match if Campbell’s foot is broken.
Bess was ‘under bowled’ because he couldn’t create pressure.
I would argue that he couldn't create pressure because he had the wrong field, he had point on the boundary the majority of the time leaving an easy single there, which just seemed crazy.
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Bess had the wrong field because he kept bowling to full. How many times did he get nailed through the covers? I understand Bess is a project player but if he's totally ineffective on a wearing pitch what's the point of playing him?
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Bess was robbed of a plumb LBW by "umpires call" and had a chance dropped because Stokes was too proactive in moving to anticipate a shot.
He's 22 years old with bags of talent, there's no way he should be dropped after this game because he didn't take 11 wickets in the second innings.
I'm honestly not sure who's worse, Ed Smith it the CBF selection panel...
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Bess had the wrong field because he kept bowling to full. How many times did he get nailed through the covers? I understand Bess is a project player but if he's totally ineffective on a wearing pitch what's the point of playing him?
Put a sweeper out at cover then... Hardly rocket science.
I'd rather see a spinner bowling attacking lines and go "too full" than dropping it too short and getting nailed.
Bowling full keeps bowled, caught behind and LBW in the game.you could even get a catch given to the edge of the 30 yard circle from a loose shot.
Bowling too short takes all of this out the game except the loose shot. It's really not complicated...
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Bess was robbed of a plumb LBW by "umpires call" and had a chance dropped because Stokes was too proactive in moving to anticipate a shot.
He's 22 years old with bags of talent, there's no way he should be dropped after this game because he didn't take 11 wickets in the second innings.
I'm honestly not sure who's worse, Ed Smith it the CBF selection panel...
So he wasn’t really robbed then he? There was doubt in the umpires mind as to where the ball struck the batsman...
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So he wasn’t really robbed then he? There was doubt in the umpires mind as to where the ball struck the batsman...
You clearly didn't watch the Test, did you?
The LBW in question pitched outside off, hit in line and was smashing into middle.
Somehow this was umpires call on height (despite virtually the whole ball hitting the stumps according to Hawkeye..
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You clearly didn't watch the Test, did you?
The LBW in question pitched outside off, hit in line and was smashing into middle.
Somehow this was umpires call on height (despite virtually the whole ball hitting the stumps according to Hawkeye..
Umpire gave it not out, DRS justifies his original decision. Case closed.
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Can anyone explain how not out was the "correct decision" here?
Genuinely baffled as it wasn't even just clipping. What percentage of the ball has to be hitting the stumps?
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLjBBJc5/Smart-Select-20200712-200834-Twitter.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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51% of the ball has hit the stumps for it to be reversed, so according to Hawkeye it wasn’t.
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51% of the ball has hit the stumps for it to be reversed, so according to Hawkeye it wasn’t.
50% has to be hitting, half the ball was easily hitting, that picture probably isn't big enough to show it, chase was dead there and got away with it
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50% has to be hitting, half the ball was easily hitting, that picture probably isn't big enough to show it, chase was dead there and got away with it
If it’s 50/50 then it’s stays with whatever the on field umpire determined. Has to be over 50%
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In bowling, West Indies looked so much better than England. England batting looked better than W-Indies. England missed a few 2nd chances in the field which made the difference otherwise not a bad performance from England.
It was a great Test match. Well played West Indies!
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Can anyone explain how not out was the "correct decision" here?
Genuinely baffled as it wasn't even just clipping. What percentage of the ball has to be hitting the stumps?
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLjBBJc5/Smart-Select-20200712-200834-Twitter.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If you look at the overall test match, the home umpires gave decisions to England more than windies. Can’t moan about one decision given about 2-3 went against windies
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Really enjoyable test match with all three results available.
Was Bess robbed... not really as an umpires call shows that it’s not nailed on so ‘if any doubt, not out’ is the right call. WI deserve their win and England still have work to do on their red ball side.
No Bairstow won’t help
No Moeen won’t help either
We still need a top order bat who will eat balls for fun but actually average 40+
Foakes has to come in and be given as many tests as Buttler and Bairstow (40+ and 70+ is it !!!).
Archer needs to realise he’s an 11 batter
Good game to watch though, better than a lot of the tests over the last few years
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I’m not sold on Pope, I’d like to see Lawrence given a chance, another that’s churned out runs consistently at county and lions level, there’s also Hain but he’s in the ODI squad so hopefully we’ll get to see him in England colours this summer
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I may be pointing to stats a little too much but I'm not sure how you can't be sold on a lad with a FC average of 60 and just 8 tests under his belt already has an average of 41 at the age of 22. But each to their own, I guess.
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I may be pointing to stats a little too much but I'm not sure how you can't be sold on a lad with a FC average of 60 and just 8 tests under his belt already has an average of 41 at the age of 22. But each to their own, I guess.
Was thinking exactly the same thing!
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I may be pointing to stats a little too much but I'm not sure how you can't be sold on a lad with a FC average of 60 and just 8 tests under his belt already has an average of 41 at the age of 22. But each to their own, I guess.
I think in this case its justified, the lad is arguably the best young batsmen in the country at the moment.
Obviously he needs to kick on and score test runs but ive not seen anything to make me doubt that hes good enough
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I’m not sold on Pope, I’d like to see Lawrence given a chance, another that’s churned out runs consistently at county and lions level, there’s also Hain but he’s in the ODI squad so hopefully we’ll get to see him in England colours this summer
If you aren't sold on Pope then I suggest you take up another sport. Hes the real deal and I predict he will finish his Test career with a 50+ average and 25+ centuries
No Bairstow won’t help
No Moeen won’t help either
We still need a top order bat who will eat balls for fun but actually average 40+
Foakes has to come in and be given as many tests as Buttler and Bairstow (40+ and 70+ is it !!!).
Archer needs to realise he’s an 11 batter
Good game to watch though, better than a lot of the tests over the last few years
Agree with all these points except Im not sure exactly how Archers batting position is his fault. Pretty sure the captain decides the order!
Foakes has to come in for me. Butlers sample size now is big enough to say he wont cut it. Move on.
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Pope is the real deal, far and away the best young batsmen, it's fairly inexperienced our batting line up that's why I think Denly has done a job.
But you have to stick with younger players they will get better.
I actually think we have a decent line up with Root back shortly.
Keeper will be interesting, Foakes has sat out too long already but I wonder if Smith will give Jos another 2 games. Brilliant player Butler but hasn't done enough in the five day game to be honest.
I just hope we don't go back to Bairstow with the flawed thinking our batting needs shoring up and he is the best bet to do it.
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We jut need a top three whose primary role is the use up 100 balls each. Ideally they’ll average 40+ too but I’ll take someone chewing balls and averaging 35 (burns for example) .. why.. because that’s test cricket and it’s what you need when the rest of thr batting line up is aggressive.
Bairstow should never see the light of day again
Moeen
Buttler
Foakes should be given 20 tests and let’s see . Leave pope at 6 and if denly has to go, don’t shoe horn in another middle order player.. find someone who is prepared to graft
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If you aren't sold on Pope then I suggest you take up another sport. Hes the real deal and I predict he will finish his Test career with a 50+ average and 25+ centurion
And why must I take up a new sport ? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Bow down to our mighty ruler !
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We jut need a top three whose primary role is the use up 100 balls each. Ideally they’ll average 40+ too but I’ll take someone chewing balls and averaging 35 (burns for example) .. why.. because that’s test cricket and it’s what you need when the rest of thr batting line up is aggressive.
Bairstow should never see the light of day again
Moeen
Buttler
Foakes should be given 20 tests and let’s see . Leave pope at 6 and if denly has to go, don’t shoe horn in another middle order
player.. find someone who is prepared to graft
We do totally agree, I think with Burns and now Sibley, Crawley maybe we have got guys willing to put the work in at the top.
Even Windies and India(pujara) have at least one who can really dig in with defence their strength.
Seems we are moving away from one day players as square pegs in round holes-not sure on Crawley but don’t think our current openers are picked in the County one day format
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Fantastic game to watch. The better team won - I think the windies are fast becoming a force to be reckoned with again.
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And why must I take up a new sport ? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Bow down to our mighty ruler !
Nope you are allowed an opinion :) the forum would be a crashing bore if we all agreed
Your wrong on Pope thou....he has the talent to be a real success I think that's why England have him at 6 to make sure he has time to settle in.
Dan Lawrence is highly rated and now on the selectors radar. Don't know a huge amount about him but think he's a four or five bat....he may need to do what Sibley has done and move up at his current County or elsewhere
Not sure exactly where he bats for his County
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And why must I take up a new sport ? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Bow down to our mighty ruler !
I was implying that you clearly know nothing about this one. And I stand by it if you dont rate Pope.
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Having an opinion doesn't prevent you from being wrong.
Just like how I thought Ballance would have 10k test runs by now. :(
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Having an opinion doesn't prevent you from being wrong.
Just like how I thought Ballance would have 10k test runs by now. :(
Started off like a train did Gaz Ballance...seemed to go a bit tits up from when he was front page of the Sun with his shirt off in a club.
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I was implying that you clearly know nothing about this one. And I stand by it if you dont rate Pope.
So how does MY OPINION mean I know nothing about cricket ? I guess whatever you say is right, I’ll remember that. All hail the CBF messiah !!
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Having an opinion doesn't prevent you from being wrong.
Just like how I thought Ballance would have 10k test runs by now. :(
So come the end of Pope’s career and I’m proven wrong then I will say I’m wrong but until then I will stand by what I said, never said the lad doesn’t have a talent just said I’m not sold on him yet
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On the topic of Pope, he clearly is, at the moment, the 3rd best player in the team on sheer talent alone. His performance in South Africa against arguably the best bowling side around highlighted him as a serious player.
England were however 2nd best in every department, and the sooner Ed Smith is sacked the better.
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So come the end of Pope’s career and I’m proven wrong then I will say I’m wrong but until then I will stand by what I said, never said the lad doesn’t have a talent just said I’m not sold on him yet
Fair enough!
Do people think Lawrence has what it takes?
And where is Sam Hain?
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On the topic of Pope, he clearly is, at the moment, the 3rd best player in the team on sheer talent alone. His performance in South Africa against arguably the best bowling side around highlighted him as a serious player.
England were however 2nd best in every department, and the sooner Ed Smith is sacked the better.
Ah...Ed Smith...I wasn't going to mention this but there is an article on line today about Broads selection, and also that Jos will be given another couple of matches....I think Foakes should be in but...it's not the worse decision I've seen over the years following England
Broad has gone in and asked Smith directly why he was dropped, Smith allegedly says ' I only help pick the team'
Well.....he picked out Butler and Jos has had an extended run without pulling up any trees so far....
Final decision rests with captain and coach on the day,or the day before,whatever they want
The question I have is...is this a cop out by Smith or exactly how selection should work?
Stokes is happy to say that's the decision and take responsibility(well done Ben but not surprised at all), so who carries the can if it goes wrong?
We lost a test, it's not a disaster, I just wonder if ' I just help pick the team' is really a bit of a cop out myself?
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Fair enough!
Do people think Lawrence has what it takes?
And where is Sam Hain?
Don't know is one answer (mine), he's a good young player but havnt seen enough of him, Sam Hain, again highly rated, The lad who just moved from Worcs to Notts who is forgotten his name, Ah Joe Clarke...quality player.
All good players, but I cannot remember a young player consistently maintaining an average of 60 in FC cricket, Pope has huge potential.
Not keen on just averages alone but sometimes they just hit you in the face.
But everyone's entitled to an opinion.
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Fair enough!
Do people think Lawrence has what it takes?
And where is Sam Hain?
Hold on.......am I allowed to give my opinion on this ?!?
I definitely think he’s worth a go as he’s scored big runs for Essex and the lions, however I think the only way he’d come in would be if Pope had a poor run of games. Essex have had him batting from 3-5 and I can’t really see him dislodging Crawley, root or stokes any time soon.
I think Sam Hain is in the ODI squad so hopefully he’ll get to done an England shirt this summer
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Pope is a serious talent! Will end up scoring thousands of runs for England.
Foakes should of been playing since his debut, far and away the best keeper and probably a better test batsman than both Bairstow and Buttler.
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I think personally Pope and Crawley are the two most talented players I the country at the moment in red ball cricket by some way.
Very different though in that Crawley has always opened and Pope is middle order. Crawley is also a lot more positive than at the moment the two in front of him but has shown he can open and stick it out so as much as I like Denly and want him to stay in the side I think Crawley has out played him so far and with Root coming back a top order of Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes is quite a good red ball top order and I think the younger less experienced players will get batter for what they are being bloodied for which is the away Ashes series in 18months time.
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I think personally Pope and Crawley are the two most talented players I the country at the moment in red ball cricket by some way.
Very different though in that Crawley has always opened and Pope is middle order. Crawley is also a lot more positive than at the moment the two in front of him but has shown he can open and stick it out so as much as I like Denly and want him to stay in the side I think Crawley has out played him so far and with Root coming back a top order of Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes is quite a good red ball top order and I think the younger less experienced players will get batter for what they are being bloodied for which is the away Ashes series in 18months time.
Lawrence is another one I'd include in that group of talented young players coming through. Bracey is another one worth looking at.
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Better to try the Archer Wood combo now rather than Ashes build up no?
I was very surprised Broad wasn't selected but they had their reasons. Definitely captains final call on the team, selectors pass on their opinions and probably pick the squad and then the coach and captain pick the 12.
Great that Broad is seeking clarity about his omission, it means he cares.
You have a young team who I'm sure learned plenty from that match.
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Better to try the Archer Wood combo now rather than Ashes build up no?
I was very surprised Broad wasn't selected but they had their reasons. Definitely captains final call on the team, selectors pass on their opinions and probably pick the squad and then the coach and captain pick the 12.
Great that Broad is seeking clarity about his omission, it means he cares.
You have a young team who I'm sure learned plenty from that match.
You'd have been right about selecting archer and wood together if it wasn't done when the conditions and pitch weren't clearly suited to Broad more so than the other 2.
Ed Smith said selection is on a pitch by pitch basis, if that's the case, I'd question again whether he knows what he is talking about then, as the pitch was never going to be quick and bouncy like Old Trafford will, and the ball generally reverses at Old Trafford. It seems odd to risk an injury in a test when you have England's 2nd leading wicket taker waiting in the wings.
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Was the pitch clearly more suited to Broad? He's never had a spectacular record on flat slow ones and it's not like Anderson had it doing too much. Think Smith was fobbing Broad off with that one, he's just arguably no longer in the strongest England side. In any case if they'd wanted to change tactics, pick a pitch it up seamer and bowl first, I'd have backed Woakes over Broad anyway. With the plan they had the flaw was not enough runs, Archer and Wood looked dangerous on day 5.
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Yes but if it is a pitch by pitch basis as Smith has said we will need a spinner as it can turn at Old Trafford and it has been a quicker pitch there than pretty much anywhere
So the logic would be a quicker pitch needing our quickest bowlers
That’s Archer and Wood again for the next match and Broad and Woakes to miss out
Unless Broad comes in for Jimmy...so leaving out our best bowler-which makes no sense.
Follow the selection criteria of pitch by pitch both our two quickest play at Manchester?
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I don’t see the pace obsession in home conditions, last summer Australia axed Starc as they said he was too wayward in English conditions.
Mark Wood has 24 wicket @ 45 in home conditions. Simply put he lacks the ability to bowl a proper line and length in English conditions. I see Wood as more a Fidel Edwards type bowler comes off one in a blue moon.
Archer, temperamental, but is considerably more skilled and talented than Wood. Even when we go to Australia, is Wood really going to do anything ? Average fast bowlers get hammered in Australia.
Woakes really should be in the playing XI in home conditions, his record is fantastic.
I’d go with Anderson/Broad, Archer and Woakes for Manchester.
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Wood at his best is unplayable and I don't think we have anyone else who can bowl 90mph as regularly, he's also very consistent he just had a bad game
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Bowling consistently above 90mph doesn’t mean anything. Looks good on the speed gun. Look at the elite fast men - Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada. Accuracy and pace.
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yeah, i just said hes unplayable at his best and consistent but had a bad game the pace is a bonus, also cummins bumrah and rabada all touch 90 and are at worst high 80s (same as wood)
is it just me or are rumours starting to appear that Denly will keep his place? seems to be quite a lot about it on twitter
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yeah, i just said hes unplayable at his best and consistent but had a bad game the pace is a bonus, also cummins bumrah and rabada all touch 90 and are at worst high 80s (same as wood)
is it just me or are rumours starting to appear that Denly will keep his place? seems to be quite a lot about it on twitter
Butler remains in according to the Guardian for another couple of games
Denly I like a lot but cannot see anyone else being dropped for Root.
The openers have to be given time plus Crawley as well
I think they will drop Denly for Root.
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Wood has been much improved on fast tracks where his pace is really dangerous. Unless it's a quick or bouncy pitch I'm not convinced he should be an automatic pick.
Woakes is a superior bowler in English conditions and I would probably be looking at the likes of Ollie Robinson for when Jimmy and Broad retire and England need bowlers who can do the same job in England.
If Denly retains his place over Crawley then the whole "Archer and Wood are being selected to build for the future" line falls pretty flat. Denly was always a stopgap. He did okay, now there is a better option with potential to be a long term solution.
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I have come to the following conclusions -
1. We completely mis-read that pitch. Which had a knock on effect in picking the team and then the decision at the toss.
2. We again underestimated the West Indies ability
3. Ed Smith is like all other selectors that have gone before him.
4. Root has actually been stitched up if the Old Trafford pitch is a usual quick and bouncy one, as he then needs Wood & Archer, so he then has neither fresh, and has a tougher decision bringing Broad back for someone.
5. Denly is the modern day Ramprakash
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5. Denly is the modern day Ramprakash
Think Denly would probably take that comparison pretty well at the moment! His selection at 3 has always confused me - if you'd wanted an experienced county bat to come in and just block out a few to shore up the top order on a short term basis then Denly wouldn't even have come into the conversation. Amazing what a few cheap poles in foreign t20 leagues can do for you these days!
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Was the pitch clearly more suited to Broad? He's never had a spectacular record on flat slow ones and it's not like Anderson had it doing too much. Think Smith was fobbing Broad off with that one, he's just arguably no longer in the strongest England side. In any case if they'd wanted to change tactics, pick a pitch it up seamer and bowl first, I'd have backed Woakes over Broad anyway. With the plan they had the flaw was not enough runs, Archer and Wood looked dangerous on day 5.
I'm really not sure what 'argument' there is to suggest that archer (average of 28.1) and wood (average of 32.4) are better than broad who averages 28.4 with the ball with 485 test wickets behind him, and having been the leading wicket taker in South Africa, and in the ashes, (in similar conditions to the ageas).
Was the pitch clearly suited to someone who targets the stumps and nibbles it from full of a length, let me see.... Who was the leading wicket taker in that test? Shannon Gabriel, what does he do? Oh yeah, attack the stumps and nibble it from full of a length, who was the 2nd leading wicket taker? Jason Holder, and what does Jason holder do? Attack the stumps and nibble it from full of a length.
Broad does more with the ball than both Wood and Archer. That is a simple fact. Bowlers that move the ball were far more effective than those that don't in this match. That is also a fact. Therefore there's not really much argument to suggest anyone would have been better suited to this pitch than Broad, over Wood and Archer (who incidentally was picked for 'pace' but averaged 86mph in this test).
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Nah Archer moves it way more than Broad ever has, don't forget that just because he's quick. As for stats, take the Ashes as they both played it - Broad took 23 at 26 in the Ashes, Archer only took one less despite playing a game less - 22 at 20. Peak Broad vs Archer might be a more interesting conversation but for me Archer is comfortably ahead at present. On a tangent, felt like Stokes used him well in this test - spell lengths/tactics more sensible than Root has been at times.
Wood vs Broad is more contentious but totally understandable to go with Wood given his recent test performances and being fit to go after lockdown-enforced rest. Wood's figures from a couple of years ago when he bowled 80-85 most of the time are rubbish, but current Wood is a different bowler.
Broad pitching it up and attacking the stumps is a nice idea, but in practice he's spent the past few years bowling pretty lengths and relying on English pitches. Admittedly he's been better in the last couple of series, but he's left himself vulnerable at a time when the fast bowling stocks are suddenly looking a lot richer. Could level the same criticism on lengths at Jimmy at times, but his figures are significantly better. In any case, that's a tactical problem not a selection problem - don't tell me a test-class collection of fast bowlers can't bowl at the stumps if they want to! Expect Broad will play several tests this summer, but will be interesting to see where they go for the next test. A lot might depend on Wood's knees in the short term.
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Nah Archer moves it way more than Broad ever has, don't forget that just because he's quick. As for stats, take the Ashes as they both played it - Broad took 23 at 26 in the Ashes, Archer only took one less despite playing a game less - 22 at 20. Peak Broad vs Archer might be a more interesting conversation but for me Archer is comfortably ahead at present. On a tangent, felt like Stokes used him well in this test - spell lengths/tactics more sensible than Root has been at times.
Wood vs Broad is more contentious but totally understandable to go with Wood given his recent test performances and being fit to go after lockdown-enforced rest. Wood's figures from a couple of years ago when he bowled 80-85 most of the time are rubbish, but current Wood is a different bowler.
Broad pitching it up and attacking the stumps is a nice idea, but in practice he's spent the past few years bowling pretty lengths and relying on English pitches. Admittedly he's been better in the last couple of series, but he's left himself vulnerable at a time when the fast bowling stocks are suddenly looking a lot richer. Could level the same criticism on lengths at Jimmy at times, but his figures are significantly better. In any case, that's a tactical problem not a selection problem - don't tell me a test-class collection of fast bowlers can't bowl at the stumps if they want to! Expect Broad will play several tests this summer, but will be interesting to see where they go for the next test. A lot might depend on Wood's knees in the short term.
What a load of absolute rubbish. You are seriously trying to tell me that archer having played a handful of tests, is a better bowler than Broad who is world class? Give me a break. Archer moves it more than broad ever has? Were you watching the ashes? Broad had it going all over the shop while archer did not.
Wood over broad is equally as ridiculous, 'given his recent performances' - what you mean like being the leading wicket taker in 2 back to back test series? Those recent performances? Oh no, that wasn't wood, it was Broad. As someone else said, Wood had 1 good series, averages over 30 still and is suddenly the 95mph messiah that is going to save English cricket. 95mph gun barrel straight on a slow deck isn't actually going to do anything to test world class batsman, as shown by wood taking 2 wickets in 34 overs conceding 110 runs only 2 maidens. Buying them at 55 doesn't make you better than Stuart Broad.
'Broad has relied on English pitches' what... You mean like the one at the Ageas? In Southampton? Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is an English pitch?
If the test class collection of fast bowlers can bowl at the stumps then why didn't they? Pretty simple game cricket, the majority of dismissals are achieved by attacking the stumps. Which bowling attack bowled at the stumps more? The West Indies. Which team won the test? The West Indies.
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Think Denly would probably take that comparison pretty well at the moment! His selection at 3 has always confused me - if you'd wanted an experienced county bat to come in and just block out a few to shore up the top order on a short term basis then Denly wouldn't even have come into the conversation. Amazing what a few cheap poles in foreign t20 leagues can do for you these days!
Denly was not picked as a number 3, he was a stop gap pick buts that's a mighty harsh view of the situation in the last 18 months.
He has filled a spot no one else wanted at the time. I'm a Denly fan so trying to give an objective viewpoint- yes like a lot of others he has been found wanting at the highest level and won't get better at his age.
He has done a job for the team,not a great success I agree but let's have a bit of perspective.
If Crawley is the man to progress with great give the guy matches and time,no issue there.... :)
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Yep, I'd take Archer over Broad every time - Broad past his best for me, Archer first bowler on the teamsheet given Anderson's recent injury record. Wood averages 19 in his last two test series, so while Broad has upped his game after getting left out in SL I think Wood had a good case for selection. Could have selected almost any combo of the 5 seamers to be honest and I don't think performance would suffer much - nice to feel that way as an England fan after years of searching for third seamer! Don't think the bowling lost us the test anyway, getting 204 in the first innings after winning the toss did and I can't see that Broad would have helped much with that these days haha.
@ppccopener yeah I thought Denly as an allrounder-lite backup option in the subcontinent was a fair enough selection, but he never ended up playing that role! Denly at 3 is just a bizarre pick, even if he has done a tolerable job.
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Yep, I'd take Archer over Broad every time - Broad past his best for me, Archer first bowler on the teamsheet given Anderson's recent injury record. Wood averages 19 in his last two test series, so while Broad has upped his game after getting left out in SL I think Wood had a good case for selection. Could have selected almost any combo of the 5 seamers to be honest and I don't think performance would suffer much - nice to feel that way as an England fan after years of searching for third seamer! Don't think the bowling lost us the test anyway, getting 204 in the first innings after winning the toss did and I can't see that Broad would have helped much with that these days haha.
@ppccopener yeah I thought Denly as an allrounder-lite backup option in the subcontinent was a fair enough selection, but he never ended up playing that role! Denly at 3 is just a bizarre pick, even if he has done a tolerable job.
You say broad wouldn't have helped with 1st innings runs, and maybe not with the bat, but the fact is, if they select Broad over Wood then Stokes bowls 1st and then it changes everything. Broad and Jimmy with overcast conditions forecast for 2 days are not letting Stokes bat 1st. Jimmy even said he missed having Broad at mid off to run things by during the game.
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You say broad wouldn't have helped with 1st innings runs, and maybe not with the bat, but the fact is, if they select Broad over Wood then Stokes bowls 1st and then it changes everything. Broad and Jimmy with overcast conditions forecast for 2 days are not letting Stokes bat 1st. Jimmy even said he missed having Broad at mid off to run things by during the game.
At the toss Stokes said he batted first because they thought the pitch would break up and didn't want to bat last, I don't see that Broad over Wood would have changed that. If they wanted to go by conditions they would have left Wood out and picked Broad or Woakes, surely? A la West Indies taking the opposite approach and dropping Cornwall, which certainly paid off!
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Aren't we all missing the obvious... get Woakes fit and that's your top order bat and premier English condition bowler position sorted in one :D
Woakes definitely adds depth to the batting, he's a different class to Bess or Curran at 8. Incredible bowling record in England which never seems to get the recognition it deserves.
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Wood at his best is unplayable and I don't think we have anyone else who can bowl 90mph as regularly, he's also very consistent he just had a bad game
45. A. Piece for his wickets in UK would tell me he didn’t just have this as a bad game. I like Wood but think like stokes he is quite expensive sometimes and normally delivers a boundary ball an over. The issue is Englands batting at the moment isn’t scoring runs at a level to allow a front line Bowler to go at that kid of rate per wicket no mater how much X factor he may have. I’m not saying he shouldn’t play but if he and archer play that you need the other 3 bowlers to be fairly economical. Stokes isnt as we know and neither are our spinners so its a tough call really. As a spectator its great to see Wood and Archer steaming in but I don’t think its the best option for England to win test matches at the moment. Broad, Anderson, Woakes and one of those two which as has been said Archer for me is the better bowler all round out of those two
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The selectors decided ages ago that the only way to win the Ashes is pace bowling and that is the magic bullet completely ignoring everything else it seems, so that is why you see what you see.
You could well be right, that leaves us with our two quickest bowlers already played on a pitch with no real pace and the Windies bowlers were not bothered as @LEACHY48 pointed out...they read the pitch better than us in our own conditions.
I do wish we would stop this obsession with Ashes cricket, there's plenty of other teams to play first. It's almost disrespectful to the rest of the test playing nations.
anyway....squad announcement has been delayed for Old Trafford, unsurprising as they are probably hoping not everyone pulls up fit to untangle the flawed thinking from the first match.
:)
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Looks like Leach could be recalled with Root’s off breaks as the backup
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Yes I read that as well. Both Leach and Bess are good I think. They may want turn away from the right handers that might explain it
I think Bess is going to be very good for us long term..
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Think that Sikh boy at Surrey, Vardy? Might be the one to look out for.
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I do wish we would stop this obsession with Ashes cricket, there's plenty of other teams to play first. It's almost disrespectful to the rest of the test playing nations.
Amen to that, have thought the same for years. I love ashes cricket, it's a brilliant series hard fought between two great cricketing nations, but this obsession with it over everything else is a joke.
Why aren't we building a team to be the best no matter who they play against our what the conditions are. Isn't that what makes a great side. Not just one who manages to win an ashes series every two years??
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this might be a dumb question, but why do people assume WI are underdogs? They are not!
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this might be a dumb question, but why do people assume WI are underdogs? They are not!
Test ranking probably the reason why.
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this might be a dumb question, but why do people assume WI are underdogs? They are not!
England have so many world class players though!
WI are the 'lesser' side really but then this England side is over rated and some of the players are nothing special at all.
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England have so many world class players though!
WI are the 'lesser' side really but then this England side is over rated and some of the players are nothing special at all.
Or are world class in a different format 😂
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Or are world class in a different format 😂
More accurate yes.
Again, it’s that belief that the formats require the same skills which simply isn’t true (well it is but it’s not) . We have some past it players on the downturn , two players at their peak (of which one has a world class avg , the other doesn’t) the rest are bang average or less
Wi have nothing past its peak, nothing really world class and maybe only holder as anything above average
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More accurate yes.
Again, it’s that belief that the formats require the same skills which simply isn’t true (well it is but it’s not) . We have some past it players on the downturn , two players at their peak (of which one has a world class avg , the other doesn’t) the rest are bang average or less
Wi have nothing past its peak, nothing really world class and maybe only holder as anything above average
A bit harsh on Holder no? He’s a world class bowler. Throw in the batting and captaincy he’s about as complete a package as you’ll probably find. I’d probably say Holder’s worth as Captain is worth more than his batting and bowling.
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Wi have nothing past its peak, nothing really world class and maybe only holder as anything above average
Holder is the No1 ranked all rounder in test cricket and some way ahead of Stokes in the points system so is way above average
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Holder is world class. end of.
He definitely doesn't get the recognition he deserves and I think that it is because hes a bowling all rounder rather than batting all rounder.
All rounders seem to get much more credit for their roll with the bat than with the ball
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Denners dropped, crawley to bat at 3
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Yeah, he did his best-stepped up to 3 when others didn’t want too.
Not quite good enough, no shame in that-there’s been plenty before.
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Wi have nothing past its peak, nothing really world class and maybe only holder as anything above average
The same Holder who is the top ranked all rounder in the world and who took his wickets in his last 10 tests at 11 when there are only 2 other bowlers in the last 100 years of test cricket who have averaged below 13 across any 10 test spell? If there is any pattern across our recent series with the West Indies, it is failing to recognise the quality in the team we are playing
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What on Earth does Buttler have to do to get dropped
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What on Earth does Buttler have to do to get dropped
Good bloke selection policy
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Jimmy and Wood rested
Sammy Curran and Ollie Robinson included
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Didn't expect them to leave out Jimmy at all. Guess we'll see Broad back in the side and perhaps Woakes?
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Don’t think it’s a given Broad is back if Robinson and Curran are included.
Woakes as has been said by others has an excellent home record also
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Would love to see them giving Robinson a go, has the skillset to be a successor to Broad/Anderson in English conditions.
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If Anderson and Wood are left out and Broad still doesnt get a game I think he might retire on the spot! Surely he'll come in for Anderson as the leader of the attack?
Buttler must have been given the series. If he has no substantial scores I would expect to see Foakes vrs Pakistan. Long overdue in my opinion.
Good try by Denly, showed glimpses but not quite good enough. If he was backed at 23 rather than 33 then who knows
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Thanks for your efforts Joe, but time to let the youngsters flourish.
As for the bowlers, I think an attack of Archer, Broad & Woakes has a lot to it. With the added benefit of Woakes making the tail alot longer than the 1st test, as it would be Bess 8, Woakes 9 (or maybe the other way round).
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It does make the tail a bit longer, Broad and Woakes are similar in bowling style thou.
England sometimes throw Curran in for a bit of variation when you least expect it.
The final 11 will be a tricky call I think
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I hope you both mean a shorter tail, unless you both think that either Wood or Anderson are better batsmen than Woakes!
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I hope you both mean a shorter tail, unless you both think that either Wood or Anderson are better batsmen than Woakes!
Ha ha yes! Shorter tail . Woakes and broad similar in bowling style but not batting wise
:)
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Think Woakes will definitely play as he’s considered as Anderson’s de facto #2. Then it’s a choice of Broad or Curran. I’d be tempted to play Curran as he would also create more foot marks for the spinner
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Think Woakes will definitely play as he’s considered as Anderson’s de facto #2. Then it’s a choice of Broad or Curran. I’d be tempted to play Curran as he would also create more foot marks for the spinner
Not sure he will but I was thinking exactly the same..Curran is always around the squad and there is a bit of variation if needed
With Leach our of the running they are going with Bess still bowling into the right handers. They may think he needs some help from the footmarks..weather is set fair for this test match
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Think we need the longest possible batting line up as well tbh. Woakes, Curran, Bess and Archer looks incredible on paper
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Think we need the longest possible batting line up as well tbh. Woakes, Curran, Bess and Archer looks incredible on paper
Yes it does but Broad probably is in. one of Curran or Woakes is my guess
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Yes it does but Broad probably is in. one of Curran or Woakes is my guess
Yep I can't imagine a game that neither Jimmy or Broad play
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Now this may be an unpopular opinion, but I remain unconvinced by Leach as an international bowler. Bess seems to have a little bit more about him.
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Leach is just very unfortunate, crohn's can be such a savage illness.
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Very hard for any sportsman to manage With it, anyone who follows snooker will know Ali Carter has been hampered with it-every thou he is top 5 in the world.
And there was a Man United young player who tried to manage it but ended up retiring early.
Might of been Darren Fletcher I cannot remember exactly the players name.
We are touring I think India and Sri Lanka in the winter and that may not be practical for Leach to go on.
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Darren Fletcher had ulcerative colitis, certainly didn't retire early though. Played 16 years of Premiership football.
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https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1727885/official-statement-jofra-archer?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=England+Cricket&utm_content=100001401823501%2B&utm_campaign=England+v+West+Indies+2020] [url]https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1727885/official-statement-jofra-archer?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=England+Cricket&utm_content=100001401823501%2B&utm_campaign=England+v+West+Indies+2020 (http://[url)[/url]
What an idiot
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Well at least it makes selection easier! Silly boy!
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Question is what has he done to break the protocols?
Aren't they meant to be confined to the OT hotel and not allowed out?
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Absolute moron
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So Broad, Woakes and Curran it is then...
All pace to no pace
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Question is what has he done to break the protocols?
Aren't they meant to be confined to the OT hotel and not allowed out?
According to BBC sport it is thought is was a breach on the journey between the Ageas and OT, my bet is a service station stop or something daft like that
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No respect for his team mates. Can’t see him playing this summer again
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It’s absolutely stupid they must have been told what they can and cannot do for these matches
Not sure if that makes Woakes now likely to play or not
I’d be tempted to get our best bowler in-Anderson
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It’s absolutely stupid they must have been told what they can and cannot do for these matches
Not sure if that makes Woakes now likely to play or not
I’d be tempted to get our best bowler in-Anderson
Anderson can’t really be risked if he’s not 100%. Any more injuries and he’s probably done for good
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Jofra went home to Brighton between games,
If he didn't see anyone and was at home only I'm not sure I see the issue, all seems a bit self destructive
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How did it work for Joe Root then, when did he get back in the 'bubble'?
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How did it work for Joe Root then, when did he get back in the 'bubble'?
Root self isolated for 5 days then rejoined the squad.
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Was he not around his family though? Presumably his wife gave birth in hospital less than a week before? Was it 'biosecure'?
I'm sure with the test and sensible behaviour all was fine, dropping Archer could be as much about punishing indiscipline (rightly so). Some of the things I've seen around the England team in the past few weeks doesn't sound like joined up behaviour though. For example players that have been in this biosecure bubble for a couple of weeks, presumably subject to tests, still had to eat their meals with social distancing. If they had been isolated in a biosecure bubble how could they have caught something and if there was a risk of this why were players not distancing on the field?!
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Similar conditions to ageas, windies win the toss and bowl...
England pick Broad, Curran and Woakes
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If it goes to plan Bess may have a bigger role at the end if Curran can create some footmarks..
On paper we do look a stronger line up with Woakes and Curran batting wise. We need a decent score thou 200 just ain’t good enough first innings
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Is it just me, or has Cricinfo live score broken?
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Is it just me, or has Cricinfo live score broken?
I just refreshed it and got the Headingley '81 scorecard...
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why cant we play Roston Chase? He's garbage just whack him
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Chase get Burns last over before lunch - 29/1. We had the session until then.
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Wasted a review on that
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missed the first ball after lunch, why is root batting?
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Oh Zak! fell into that trap!
roston bloody chase!
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Bring back Denly! ;)
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When Chase is old and grey(maybe not grey as he's bald) he'll be telling the grandchildren 'England thought I was Murali'
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Death, taxes and being unable to play Roston Chase
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It did concern me when Chris Silverwood came out shortly after his appointment and said that England would concentrate on batting time in test cricket - there are people who have been watching the game for longer than me, but I have always thought that you win tests by scoring runs not facing deliveries and the best sides in the history of the game are those who take the game to the opposition and put them under pressure. The way our opening pair have gone about playing Chase really concerns me. There is no attempt to put pressure on him when he is bowling. He made a mistake here, but I was really impressed wirh the way Crawley played Chase in the first. Sibley in particular needs to find a way to up his.scoring options
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You do have to love that the first match without Denly England find themselves 30-2. He may be no world beater but it is almost as though he did some kind of useful job of eating up balls or something ;)
Yes, there is a role for that type of player in modern test matches still. Pujara is the best I’ve seen for India but actually the Windies have a guy that does that.
Most successful test teams have had that type of player over the years
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*geek alert* Root's first innings in goodness knows how long with a full SH length blade? *geek alert*
It doesn't look like it to me but during lockdown he said he had given away his short blades to go back to a regular length
Yes. Because of a lean patch. He’s just like us - blame the bat!!
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the bat mark wood used in the sa series was one of roots, they swapped as root wanted to try a full length blade again, saw woody smashing it asked for his bat back, wood refused
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It did concern me when Chris Silverwood came out shortly after his appointment and said that England would concentrate on batting time in test cricket - there are people who have been watching the game for longer than me, but I have always thought that you win tests by scoring runs not facing deliveries and the best sides in the history of the game are those who take the game to the opposition and put them under pressure. The way our opening pair have gone about playing Chase really concerns me. There is no attempt to put pressure on him when he is bowling. He made a mistake here, but I was really impressed wirh the way Crawley played Chase in the first. Sibley in particular needs to find a way to up his.scoring options
It’s not binary.. it’s not you’re either a blocker or a biffer . Test top 3 players need to be able to occupy the crease and not worry about scoring rates. Yes they need to be able to play shots but the key is not worrying about it. Sure the GREAT players can do both (Ponting) bit they are rare. England have a flakey batting line up and so their top 3 are required to occupy the crease for 100 balls each rather than worry about ‘putting pressure on’ or shy of that aggressive mumbo jumbo.. these players just aren’t good enough (few are)..
I’m waiting for the ‘bairstow to go 3’ or ‘root to 3’ or ‘Pope/Lawrence to 3’ brigade to start up again...
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*geek alert* Root's first innings in goodness knows how long with a full SH length blade? *geek alert*
It doesn't look like it to me but during lockdown he said he had given away his short blades to go back to a regular length
Come on mate no one uses a standard length blade anymore 🙈
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good job we bat to 10!
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Root gifting one
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It’s not binary.. it’s not you’re either a blocker or a biffer . Test top 3 players need to be able to occupy the crease and not worry about scoring rates. Yes they need to be able to play shots but the key is not worrying about it. Sure the GREAT players can do both (Ponting) bit they are rare. England have a flakey batting line up and so their top 3 are required to occupy the crease for 100 balls each rather than worry about ‘putting pressure on’ or shy of that aggressive mumbo jumbo.. these players just aren’t good enough (few are)..
I’m waiting for the ‘bairstow to go 3’ or ‘root to 3’ or ‘Pope/Lawrence to 3’ brigade to start up again...
It shouldn't be binary and you don't have to be a great of the game to manipulate the field and put pressure on the bowler. The content is the that West Indies are picking 4 front line bowlers, one of whom is recovering from ankle surgery. If Chase struggles to hold an end up, that puts pressure on Holder and his ability to rotate his seamers. Crawley as an inexperienced batsman with a first class average of 30 showed the attitude that is needed.
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Root is a better player in a strong team. By that I mean, now he's the lead man he's not quite up to it.
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If this was Root running Gabriel into the ground then there'd be outrage
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Can't believe people are having a go at Sibley on the BBC chat. An England opener that isn't Sir Alastair Cook scoring runs in a test match? Give the man a new Jaguar.
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There’s a mighty amount of people who know precious little about how to win over 5 days.
I expect some in here may have some discussion points for later :)
Worth remembering now there is no Denly 4 out of our top 6 are inexperienced...so they bat how they do naturally. Which I think is a huge plus going forward
Sibley has been superb today, and Stokes is our best cricketer
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Good day after being put in!
Sibley was outstanding doing his job perfectly
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It shouldn't be binary and you don't have to be a great of the game to manipulate the field and put pressure on the bowler. The content is the that West Indies are picking 4 front line bowlers, one of whom is recovering from ankle surgery. If Chase struggles to hold an end up, that puts pressure on Holder and his ability to rotate his seamers. Crawley as an inexperienced batsman with a first class average of 30 showed the attitude that is needed.
Then you might as well bring back roy, hales, Bairstow as your top three.. ‘put the pressure on’.. it’s a test match ffs.. you do t need to put pressure on... they ain’t good enough to bowl ball after ball after ball in the right place...
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I see both sides of the argument - what I would say is that Sibley is doing great for now - he will need to think over the next 12-18 months how he will develop his game so that teams are not able to work him out and work him over because his style of play can be ripe for that.
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How costly is the Holder dropping Sibley going to be?
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I dream of the day when Burns and Sibley get hundreds in the same innings!
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They both know how to score runs and have the right mentality, no doubt there will be challenges as opposition bowlers get used to their scoring areas.
I was thinking today, without any stat to back it up if our top 6 is now the youngest we have ever had.Im confident it's the youngest since I have been supporting England.
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I dream of the day when Burns and Sibley get hundreds in the same innings!
The suggestion that they can manage that within 90 overs is... Optimistic...
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I see both sides of the argument - what I would say is that Sibley is doing great for now - he will need to think over the next 12-18 months how he will develop his game so that teams are not able to work him out and work him over because his style of play can be ripe for that.
Pujara has no issues with that style of play. No need to change what’s working.
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I am pretty happy with Burns and Sibley as openers!
As has been said previously, we have been moaning that our top 3 were not gritty enough and would really not just bed in and work hard.
It looks as though we may have gradually turned the corner now, so let's give them a chance to develop. If we can get a top 3 who work hard, then Root, Stokes & co should hopefully be able to come in and up the run rate once the foundation of the innings has been built?
Anyway, I was moaning that we should have Burns before he was being considered and also doing the same with Sibley, so I will be keeping my fingers crossed that they establish themselves for the next few years!
Just a shame that we can't seem to decide on a keeper behind the stumps! I understand Buttler is a talent, but I am in the Foakes camp still. Also really hope that Pope can up his game at 6 too - he could be amazing if he can prove his talent at the higher level (fingers crossed!)
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Pujara has no issues with that style of play. No need to change what’s working.
Pujara scores the majority of his runs on the sub continent, and has proportionally more scoring options than Sibley, even if he is cautious about using them.
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Thought we did well today. Sibley, fortunate to survive at couple of drops but that’s on West Indies, Sibley is limited but he plays well to those limitations. Going forward he’ll probably have to develop a little bit more stroke play especially against spin, as panicked reverse seeeps probably won’t work against Ashwin or Jadeja. Stokes did as he does solid, the sluggish pitch probably stopped him from taking the bowlers apart later in the day.
West Indies where poor, bowled far too short. On commentary they kept saying ‘Roach so unlucky’ well no he wasn’t. Pitch the ball up. If we get 400+ it’s game over.
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You guys have produced some hard to watch batsmen and Sibly is right up there. I know its disrespectful to the job he is doing but its just so hard to watch. zzzzzzzzz.
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I dont get the obsession with how a batsman looks, as long as he scores runs who cares.
Steve Smith a prime and massively irritating example, i cant work out how he scores runs but he does.
Then theres the likes of Shiv Chanderpaul, who actually wasn't that unorthodox, he was very side on at release just his initial set up and for trigger was a bit odd.
id happily watch burns and sibley bat all day if were 250 - 0 at the end of the day (burns actually has a decent strike rate when he gets in) especially if it means the middle order can go mad and get us up to the 450/500 mark
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The test cricket world needs more Sibleys and Pujaras! Play those ugly innings, put in the hard graft and score runs for the side.
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You need a blend of different styles to make a good test side, England have enough strokeplayers to make that work and it will take time to bed in after a long time looking at limited overs cricket and one day players shoe horned in to the 5 day game.
I thought Sibley and Stokes were brilliant yesterday, and if Root continues to keep giving his wicket away those type of innings will become more valuable.
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nobody ever complained when we were winning the ashes with trott and cook grinding the aussie bowlers into the ground. there is definitely place in the line up for a grafter, cook did it for years and allowed others to play around him.
I would rather sibley batted all day for 80 than a run a ball 30 then threw it away in the first hour of the day
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nobody ever complained when we were winning the ashes with trott and cook grinding the aussie bowlers into the ground. there is definitely place in the line up for a grafter, cook did it for years and allowed others to play around him.
I would rather sibley batted all day for 80 than a run a ball 30 then threw it away in the first hour of the day
Its all about the right balance though. You need stroke players in partnership with grafters to be effective. Yesterday's partnership of Stokes and Sibley was the perfect example.
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I think this england batting line up is the most balanced its been for a long while. Two proper openers, crawley showing promise at 3, root a perfect 4, Stokes and pope more expansive when needed. At least there is a clear strategy now that has worked for decades. Whether they all succeed remains to be seen!
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I can Sibley getting found out pretty quickly. Neil Wagner will have a field day with him.
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Over after over of leg side bouncers?
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stokes looks like hes about to do something daft here. new ball has been good for the windies
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Then you might as well bring back roy, hales, Bairstow as your top three.. ‘put the pressure on’.. it’s a test match ffs.. you do t need to put pressure on... they ain’t good enough to bowl ball after ball after ball in the right place...
They seem to be good enough at the moment to bowl ball after ball in the right place. And with a 1-0 lead in a 3-match series they don't need to do anything differently. As the number of overs has now opened up a healthy lead over Sibley's score and with rain around tomorrow, it would be interesting to understand what this game plan is intending to achieve. Were this a club game, Holder would be getting stick right now for deliberately dropping Sibley to keep him at the crease to make sure the team couldn't get a competitive score on the board
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I can Sibley getting found out pretty quickly. Neil Wagner will have a field day with him.
He currently has a higher average than any NZ opener in living memory. So im sure he'll cross the wagner bridge when he comes to it
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well batted sibbers! now kick on and make it a biggie!
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THE FRIDGE
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Not known as the fridge now, he’s shed 12kg through lockdown apparently
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Not known as the fridge now, he’s shed 12kg through lockdown apparently
The mini fridge?
The beer fridge?
The wine cooler?
they're all smaller versions of Fridges right?
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For all the naysayers, how much could England have used an innings like this in the first test? Outstanding test match batting.
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Not known as the fridge now, he’s shed 12kg through lockdown apparently
Good to see he has realised quite early the level he needs to be at fitness wise
12kg is a lot to take off as anyone who has tried to lose weight will testify I’m sure :)
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yessssssssssssssssssss Stokesy
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Sibley playing his natural game but what is Stokes' reason for such a slow knock? Tough to understand this knock of his. Dont think the Windies are bowling that well.
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Sibley playing his natural game but what is Stokes' reason for such a slow knock? Tough to understand this knock of his. Dont think the Windies are bowling that well.
I hope he is taking ownership as a senior player to set a platform to win and test and to do that if batting first you need a decent score. If we can get 450+ can’t see is losing this a match and reckon you will win 8/10 in U.K. conditions if you get 450+ and if it takes two days to do that it’s fine for me.
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What a shot
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that was incredible!
straight bat off joseph over mid wicket for 6! amazing
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This is such poor management by the Windies with their bowlers and such a quick turnaround time between matches
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Stokes starting to go through the gears here with two beautiful boundaries off Holder. This is proper test match batting, grind the oppo down then whack them about when their bowlers start to tire. Just need Sibley to find another gear here too, great he's got the hundred and has ground the Windies down, but he needs to start upping his S/R now, can't afford to hit 200 off 600.
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Tough ask to have exactly the same bowling attack in back to back tests and they are really tiring this afternoon.
Our bowlers will be glad of the extra rest you would think
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That lofted on drive, beautiful
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So impressed with Sibley. Exceptional concentration and discipline. You can learn to score in other ways and I'm sure as his confidence grows he will pick it up a little - but you can't teach this level of dedication. Outstanding.
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This is such poor management by the Windies with their bowlers and such a quick turnaround time between matches
I believe WI bowling options are limited due to lack of experience. The other two fast bowlers in the squad have limited or no experience in test match. Hindsight, I would have rested Gabriel for this test and played Thomas, with Gabriel playing the 3rd test again. Similar to what England did with Jimmy, resting him since this was the first test back from injury which was the same situation for Gabriel.
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That lofted on drive, beautiful
This is phenomenal from Stokes. He brought up his 100 off 255 balls and is now on 152 off 302 so 52 off his last 47 balls. This is how you play test cricket.
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Tough ask to have exactly the same bowling attack in back to back tests and they are really tiring this afternoon.
Our bowlers will be glad of the extra rest you would think
Hopefully they will bowl full instead of mid-pitch :D
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sibley just needs to bat, we have enough batters to come, all of them score quickly if hes 200 not out off 550-600 balls but we get 500+ off 180-200 overs job done
Pope, Buttler, curran, woakes, bess can all make up for sibleys slower strike rate
and as i type he slogs chase out to miswicket to be caught
good knock just what we needed
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one of the easier decisions an umpire will ever have to give with pope catching the ball with his pads!
this is what buttler was picked for, no pressure Jos but its now or never!
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Was just about to say they should have considered moving him up the order considering this is the perfect scenario for a player like him to build on
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might have been slow but sibleys knock could be very important here. Chase turning it when hes the master of the arm ball, Bess should be getting loose early
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one of the easier decisions an umpire will ever have to give with pope catching the ball with his pads!
this is what buttler was picked for, no pressure Jos but its now or never!
The ball lodging between his pads right infront made it look far plumber than it actually was! Like Mikey said that look to be hitting leg/middle & leg based on where it ended up getting lodged but was actually only just brushing leg.
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Come on then Jos, bowls old, pitch is flat let’s see if you can actually do what your picked for in Test cricket. Need 450 and 30mins at the WI openers this evening please Jos.
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Oh for God sake! Put the light meter away!
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How many to save Buttler's spot?
50? 70?!
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How many to save Buttler's spot?
50? 70?!
one suspects that will be enough for Ed Smith to justify his selection for the rest of the Summer
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not to be controversial but surely buttlers strike rate there wasnt good enough.
hes in the side to tee off against a weary side so we should be wanting 70 odd off 50 odd balls.
youve got a better keeper in foakes on the sidelines who can score 40 off 70.
if on a batting perspective they are equal (in tests i think they are at worst but buttler is inferior imo) then you go with the better keeper surely?
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Gabriel with a new take on the Nathan Lyon fumble
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That's terrible from Gabriel! How's he messed that run out up!
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That's terrible from Gabriel! How's he messed that run out up!
Excused...they have put a double shift in fielding and are knackered
Root needs to take the ball off Broady and see if there’s turn there for Bess.
:)
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That was err, plumb
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not to be controversial but surely buttlers strike rate there wasnt good enough.
Not controversial at all, it was shameful. Sorry guys, I know we need some quick runs but my mate Ed might have to drop me so...
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That was err, plumb
Just a bit!
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And one not given and not reviewed, ffs
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Missed one there!
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He currently has a higher average than any NZ opener in living memory. So im sure he'll cross the wagner bridge when he comes to it
"Currently" haha what a joker... And NZ openers are probably not where you want to set your bar.
All I said is that he is hard to watch, not that he's not doing a great job. You guys hate other people's opinions over there don't you.
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"Currently" haha what a joker... And NZ openers are probably not where you want to set your bar.
All I said is that he is hard to watch, not that he's not doing a great job. You guys hate other people's opinions over there don't you.
Ok so my original response was deleted. Obviously the mods get offended by any cross country discussion but are happy for GerrySA mark4 to continue his merry way.
You actually said Wagner would find him out and he was limited. All ill say is - if you dont like the word 'currently' then how about this - Dom Sibley will FINISH his career with a higher average than any NZ opener in living memory. Probably any opener in the history of NZ cricket. Facts upon facts. No joking about it.
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Ok so my original response was deleted. Obviously the mods get offended by any cross country discussion but are happy for GerrySA mark4 to continue his merry way.
You actually said Wagner would find him out and he was limited. All ill say is - if you dont like the word 'currently' then how about this - Dom Sibley will FINISH his career with a higher average than any NZ opener in living memory. Probably any opener in the history of NZ cricket. Facts upon facts. No joking about it.
"Currently" Jack Leach has a better opening average than all NZ Openers :D We certainly struggle in the Opening batsman category thats for sure. Tom Latham I think will end with a very good Career though. We're not as fortunate to have such good openers as English cricket seems to keep producing.
I think you misunderstand what a fact is, for example when I said Wagner would find him out, thats not fact thats just me making an observation based on what I have seen from his leg side play it wont become a fact unless it happens like if Sibley ends with a test record above Latham (It could certainly happen, but its not a fact).
The fact is England Openers don't last long and Id be surprised looking at Sibley and his lack of scoring ability in certain areas plus the fact he gets beaten a lot, knicks towards slips, struggles when the ball is around his hip that he wont get found out by good bowling (No not NZ bowling as we are clearly trash in your eyes) but Australia et al. He is limited, look at the field they set for him against spin. Cook was limited but that doesn't mean he's not great.
Stop living up to your sterotype... :o
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"Currently" Jack Leach has a better opening average than all NZ Openers :D We certainly struggle in the Opening batsman category thats for sure. Tom Latham I think will end with a very good Career though. We're not as fortunate to have such good openers as English cricket seems to keep producing.
I think you misunderstand what a fact is, for example when I said Wagner would find him out, thats not fact thats just me making an observation based on what I have seen from his leg side play it wont become a fact unless it happens like if Sibley ends with a test record above Latham (It could certainly happen, but its not a fact).
The fact is England Openers don't last long and Id be surprised looking at Sibley and his lack of scoring ability in certain areas plus the fact he gets beaten a lot, knicks towards slips, struggles when the ball is around his hip that he wont get found out by good bowling (No not NZ bowling as we are clearly trash in your eyes) but Australia et al. He is limited, look at the field they set for him against spin. Cook was limited but that doesn't mean he's not great.
Stop living up to your sterotype... :o
Some pointless drivel in there and also a bit of an insult. But I wont stoop to that. Deflects from the point in hand. Sibley will average more that any NZ opener EVER! Ive just looked at the stats. Very very poor set of openers from that corner of the world.
And no I dont think NZs bowling is poor, very good in fact. Not a fan of Wagners style but I appreciate the job he does and Southee and Boult are up there with the best new ball pairs in the world (in helpful conditions). Not sure why you'd think that, I never once said NZs bowling was poor (or trash as you americans say). But Sibley will score runs against them. Wait and see.
Latham is decent agreed but already Sibley averages more and has only played on green mambas in SA and now England which has the lowest opening average in world cricket.
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Some pointless drivel in there and also a bit of an insult. But I wont stoop to that. Deflects from the point in hand. Sibley will average more that any NZ opener EVER! Ive just looked at the stats. Very very poor set of openers from that corner of the world.
And no I dont think NZs bowling is poor, very good in fact. Not a fan of Wagners style but I appreciate the job he does and Southee and Boult are up there with the best new ball pairs in the world (in helpful conditions). Not sure why you'd think that, I never once said NZs bowling was poor (or trash as you americans say). But Sibley will score runs against them. Wait and see.
Latham is decent agreed but already Sibley averages more and has only played on green mambas in SA and now England which has the lowest opening average in world cricket.
"Not a fan of Wagners style but appreciate the job he does" Pretty much exactly what I said (shrugging shoulders).
I will certainly be the first to say I was wrong if Sibley ends with a better average than Latham (Mid 40's I'm being optimistic like yourself)
Just a bit of banter and different opinions mate, I know you guys can handle yourselves with banter. Anyway our tiny nation has a better batsman than anyone you have currently so we do ok :D
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Wagner is a really good bowler. He is so underrated!
I was delighted with England's performance yesterday. I love seeing a Warwickshire player perform, and hopefully Woakes joins in tomorrow too. Ben Stokes is incredible.
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Anyone noticed Butler has changed his technique a little this series. He used to be semi open but is very closed off now. He seemed more natural before and I thought he is struggling for anything straight now.
Maybe he is over complicating things, I think it is just his mindset he needs to get right before he can score tons of runs.
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Hoping that a quick-ish 40 isn't used to justify Buttler in the side for the next year and a half. Foakes has scored his share of quick runs, look at his 50 over record for example.
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I don't think Butler has played his natural game when playing these last 2 years.whether he has not been able to or thinks he should play differently in tests who knows.
He has actually knuckled down and had some decent innings in a few matches.
Foakes should be in for me but Butler has been given longer because he is that talented or because he is a Smith pick-take your choice on that view.
I well remember the 80's selection which was players coming and going like the clappers, so to give a player extra time is far better I think.
As long as we do not go backwards to Bairstow and forward with Foakes maybe for the winter I think it's ok.
Yes Foakes should be in, but at least selection seems consistent.
You would hope Burns,Crawley and Pope, Dom Bess do get a good run to get some confidence behind them.
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Glenn Turner and Mark Richardson average more than Dom Sibley as opener. So I’m not sure why some feel it worthwhile to make such moronic statements.
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He looked like his trigger was going to have him stepping on his own toes. Very cramped and weird. It certainly didn't look natural for him but I guess the aim is towards being more "compact" and less "loose and armsey*"
* that is a technical term of course ;)
When I look at the English batting I frequently ask what are they trying to coach.
I am all for idiosyncrasies but they need to improve a player not break them.
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Hit a nerve did I Gerry? Are the admins going to do anything about this guy who has obviously been banned under several different names???
But actually at the time I checked when Sibley was still not out he had a higher average than both turner and richardson.
Shame its been rained off today, makes it easier for people to criticise the strike rate! Do people think there is still a chance of a result?
Mate..don't waste your replies, I dunno when we are playing NZ but it's miles away. West Indies are enough for us to deal with, they have taken a pay cut to come here and from the cricket I have seen we've outplayed them in 1 day so far when they were knackered in the field. Stokes is outstanding yes, but we are 0-1 down and barring a miracle of 19 wickets in 2 days will stay that way.
Let's get back on track and I love a discussion about England just as much as everyone else. :)
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Agreed. West indies more than a match for this current england team. Thoroughly outplayed us last time away.
Would like to have seen if this current strategy is the way forward with a full 5 days to play with but not to be. 19 wickets in two days is not unheard of vrs this WI batting line up just depends if there is significant deterioration in the track. Not sure of the forecast for the next 2 days but early wickets tomorrow its game on
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I just love seeing a strong West Indies team... And they are truly a team. I'm not always convinced that England are.
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I am not sure this is a particularly strong WI team. I think these are two mid table teams playing well matched cricket.
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Let’s not forget windies have left 3 of their better players at home.
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Horrible start to the day
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Shame its been rained off today, makes it easier for people to criticise the strike rate! Do people think there is still a chance of a result?
The weather was forecast as a wash out yesterday in the North West so the point about the strike rate has to be considered in the context of a game England has to win knowing that only 4 days play will be possible.
England can still win this by bowling well today but it is going to be an uphill struggle If we keep letting chances pass by.
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Archer might’ve been decent on this pitch...
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Still loving the look of Brathwaite's MIDS bat. Would like to get some of those stickers
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Even on a turning track Bess has no control over line and length. Absolutely awful.
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I think when it turns most of the time you want to be bowling in the same spot repeatedly
I know Panesar was left arm but at his best landed it from a tall action consistently on a length that made it difficult for the batsmen to get forward on auto pilot
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Isn't it a bit of a disaster for Broad, if he doesn't take any wickets?
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Isn't it a bit of a disaster for Broad, if he doesn't take any wickets?
But he’s very upset, angry and hurt...
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Would be nice to see England come up with a plan for a flat one that isn't just 'bang it in half way down for a couple of hours'. Reckon Stokes could easily take 5 runs off his bowling average if Root wasn't skipper.
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Buttler keeping isn’t really improving
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Isn't it a bit of a disaster for Broad, if he doesn't take any wickets?
He has been a a bit unlucky and could of picked up a couple on another day.
Doesn't seem to be as much movement on this wicket as at Southampton.
But if you mean Wood , Anderson and Archer are waiting for the next game I see your point.
Can't believe they will leave out Jimmy out for the next test. Woakes and broad are wicket less currently.
Edit Broad has got one
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YES STUART!
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Broad again!!
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I was just trying to get him going, clearly! ;)
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Keep up please 3 now for Broad.
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*Turns out it was indigestion*. LOL
Woakes gets one :D
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Does Root just not understand bowler's workloads?
11 overs in a row before tea. Then brings him back after tea and then Stokes' stomach muscle goes? (Or something like that).
I'm putting that down to poor captaincy again.
Woakes gets one :D
Unless Root was feeding Stokes at tea like a fois gras duck I dont think you can blame him. Indigestion!
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Unless Root was feeding Stokes at tea like a fois gras duck I dont think you can blame him. Indigestion!
Quality excuse to leave the field :D :D
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The day that gets served in any match you know you have left your working class roots :)
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STOKES AND BUTTLER OPENING!
This is either going to be great or terrible...
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Went terribly then
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Admire the positive thinking from us but this very rarly works changing both.
Could understand Sibley moving down but replace him with Crawley/Pope/stokes.
A new ball and test match fields are different,then if we have a decent start push butler up.
Don't expect to have many agree but I actually feel a bit sorry for Jos there
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Admire the positive thinking from us but this very rarly works changing both.
Could understand Sibley moving down but replace him with Crawley/Pope/stokes.
A new ball and test match fields are different,then if we have a decent start push butler up.
Don't expect to have many agree but I actually feel a bit sorry for Jos there
I don't think that we have any option but to treat this as a T20. Given the situation in the series, we can bat at most for an hour tomorrow then see if the bowlers can get us over the line.
Butler has in both innings done the job that he has been required to do. As a limited overs side, we are in a position where players put the interests of the team before their own. Something that we have had in the test side in the recent past and need to get back to
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I don't think that we have any option but to treat this as a T20. Given the situation in the series, we can bat at most for an hour tomorrow then see if the bowlers can get us over the line.
Butler has in both innings done the job that he has been required to do. As a limited overs side, we are in a position where players put the interests of the team before their own. Something that we have had in the test side in the recent past and need to get back to
Yeah I get that but you could fit two full T20 matches into tomorrow's overs, forecast is fine. Around 290 would be a record I believe to win and I'm looking at the best way to keep momentum so we win the match.
There's obviously differing views how you can achieve that.
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Yeah I get that but you could fit two full T20 matches into tomorrow's overs, forecast is fine. Around 290 would be a record I believe to win and I'm looking at the best way to keep momentum so we win the match.
There's obviously differing views how you can achieve that.
290 is too many. Wi won’t even try and chase it .. anything above 120 per session available to WI will simply not tempt them... 240 off 2 sessions will just dangle the carrot enough
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The skill in tests and draw games is scoring enough to win but also not too many so that the oppos chase it. How many times do you hear ‘they didn’t even bother, how Boring’.. answer there is ‘maybe you scored to many’..
Tactics.. this is when we know if root is willing to take a risk to win or simply play safe and hope
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Get to 300 and let the fun begin!
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There are 98 overs available tomorrow from what I have heard.
Which means the opportunity for 2 new balls if we declare early enough. I don't think the chance of that 2nd new ball should be wasted when we saw today what a difference it makes on this wicket.
If we bat for about 10 overs try and get as many as possible and declare. That will then leave at least 5/6 overs with the 2nd new ball should we need to knock the tail over at the end etc....
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There are 98 overs available tomorrow from what I have heard.
Which means the opportunity for 2 new balls if we declare early enough. I don't think the chance of that 2nd new ball should be wasted when we saw today what a difference it makes on this wicket.
If we bat for about 10 overs try and get as many as possible and declare. That will then leave at least 5/6 overs with the 2nd new ball should we need to knock the tail over at the end etc....
Exactly. We don't need to go nuts and we need that second new ball. If they were chasing 290'that would be a record, that would be too high.
I agree, 10 overs batting if we get 260 ahead I think we can win.
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Yeah I get that but you could fit two full T20 matches into tomorrow's overs, forecast is fine. Around 290 would be a record I believe to win and I'm looking at the best way to keep momentum so we win the match.
There's obviously differing views how you can achieve that.
The only problem with the T20 comparison is that first you don't have to bowl the opposition out to win a T20 and second that the Windies onky have to draw and England can't win the series
This still looks pretty good pitch to me and the Windies aren't going to take huge risks with the the target they are set given they a 1-0 up in a 3 match series
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What’s the logic around Woakes bowling first change, behind Curran?
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Do you guys think that the memories of headingley 2017 will affect how early they are willing to declare
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10719/scorecard/1031661/england-vs-west-indies-2nd-test-wi-tour-of-england-2017 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10719/scorecard/1031661/england-vs-west-indies-2nd-test-wi-tour-of-england-2017)
little reminder incase any of you forgot. You dont want to get overly aggressive and lose the series. You have to get at least 300 on the board as quickly as you can and back your bowlers to get wickets in the time remaining
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There has to be a realistic target that would entice West Indies to actually go for the win.
I’d hazard a guess something like 270 off 90 overs. That leaves Root with the option of 10 overs with a second new ball.
If West Indies are good enough to chase that down on fifth day(fourth in reality) pitch, more power to them.
England have to roll the dice as West Indies will retain the Wisden Trophy with a drawn series.
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Yes I think we need to gamble as well, we are going to have to prise them out if they load a couple of wickets early. About 260 or 270 could be enough
Not sure I’m with others on the state of the pitch, looks like to me there is enough there to get a result...
289 I believe is the record chase so that shows odds are against a forth innings win.
The seamers have done the damage could be Bess does not play a huge part today
Let’s see anyway...could be a great days cricket
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For all it's worth with mentioning Headingley, I don't remember there being much for spinners on that pitch like this one
Would personally like 270 or so, considering the West Indies are 1-0 up I'm not necesarrily sure they will risk going for it
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THAT SIX
JESUS CHRIST STOKESY
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Gonna be fun
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We are batting on way too long here
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Holder's attempt at timewasting with these reviews is beyond me
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Shame there is no crowd to boo him for time wasting!
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Holder's attempt at timewasting with these reviews is beyond me
Reckon most teams would be doing the same if they were in a similar situation
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Probably but as Holding said it's not what DRS should be used for.
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300 lead got to declare at end of this over.
thatll give us 85 and 2 new balls
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Whether they are time wasting or not pretty sure we would be doing the same
And we should of declared 2 overs ago
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Not sure why Holder wasted the reviews. Time wasting doesn’t work when all over must be bowled on day 5
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Not sure why Holder wasted the reviews. Time wasting doesn’t work when all over must be bowled on day 5
Not if it gets too dark to bowl them
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I would have wanted 10 overs with the second new ball but theres plenty in it for our bowlers. I think it will be close at the end of the day, if they get a draw I can see them 8 or 9 down
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Not if it gets too dark to bowl them
Worst comes to worst Root will bowl himself and Bess
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YES. Although I'm baffled as to why Buttler seemed nonplussed by it
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One down and it's Broad
Selection for the last match will be interesting on CBF!!
But let's not worry about that now :)
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LOL what a shot to play when you’re playing for a draw. #JohnCampbellLogic
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England have this in the bag...Winwiz is crazy to predict a 48% chance of a draw.
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England have this in the bag...Winwiz is crazy to predict a 48% chance of a draw.
i wouldnt go that far!
when the ball gets older its easier to bat, we saw that in the first innings
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Woakes could be a doppelgänger for Christian Bale
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Woakes! big wicket that, brathwaite gone!
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Jesus Christ Stuart, what a nut
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Game Over! The bowler selection for the next test will be very interesting!
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Why do people write off Stuart Broad
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Who was it that was claiming broad deserved to be left out in favour of Archer?
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Real England vs real West Indies been on show in this match. Gulf in class.
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Why do people write off Stuart Broad
Because they are idiots
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Real England vs real West Indies been on show in this match. Gulf in class.
so its REAL when England win, and not real when they lose? Both teams are evenly matched and the recent history between the two teams prove this (numbers don't lie).
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W-Indies need 211 to win in 50 overs.
England need 6 wickets to win in 50 overs.
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This is anybody's game right now. Test cricket, gotta love it. :D
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We don't deserve Ben Stokes. What a cricketer.
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Massive wicket that before tea
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Yes yes yes yes yes
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Bess with a big wicket! Good ball bowled holder through the gate
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SIMPLY THE BESS
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Lovely little send off aswell after being hit for 6.
Joseph with the shiny Keeley, batted well 1st innings
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Illingworth is a very mediocre umpire. Seems to get influenced by the players yelling.
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Something serious there if stokes couldn’t finish the over
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what an epic return to Test cricket
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Ollie Pope that is outstanding!
an hour to spare on day 5, even with the "slow" first innings and day lost to rain, thats a very good win!
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What a win!
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Can all those who bang on about opening batsmen’s scoring rates please have a word with yourselves
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Illingworth is a very mediocre umpire. Seems to get influenced by the players yelling.
The same man who's the current holder of the ICC umpire of the year award?
Have a word with yourself Gerry.
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Sibley bats too slow
Stokes first hundred was too slow
Broad is past it
Bess bowls dross
Woakes not good enough
CBF coaches forum
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It's time for the great Third Test Selection Debate.
I expect a whole lot of nonsense with a side of judgement and indignation from all of you. Don't let CBF down!
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It's time for the great Third Test Selection Debate.
I expect a whole lot of nonsense with a side of judgement and indignation from all of you. Don't let CBF down!
Yep just about to post this.
It’s going to need some thinking. It’s a must win game but who do you leave out?
There is a good argument not to change a winning team.
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I'm not convinced by Stokes. Bowls too slow. One for the future maybe.
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Some good problems on the seam bowling selection for sure. Curran and Woakes wouldnt be in most peoples first 11s but both contributed here.
As its a decider I think England should go with their strongest line up, assuming everyone is fit. Which in England would probably be Broad, Anderson and one of Wood/Archer. Probably Archer. Certainly lengthens the tail that a slight downside.
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I reckon the seamers you could fire off 10 different credible permutations, and Buttler won't get dropped until Smith pays the ransom so a much more interesting question. What would you do if Stokes was not declared fit to bowl?
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I reckon the seamers you could fire off 10 different credible permutations, and Buttler won't get dropped until Smith pays the ransom so a much more interesting question. What would you do if Stokes was not declared fit to bowl?
If Stokes isnt fit to bowl you either gamble on 3 seamers and the spinner backed up by root or drop a batsman to get one of Curran or Woakes in at 7. Think Id do the former with Anderson and Archer and Wood well rested.
Or even potentially drop bess and have root as your spinner. Harsh but possible
What would you do? From within the current squad of course :D
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Congratulation England. Looking forward to the 3rd test.
I will take a crack at the teams for the 3rd test.
England: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler (last test to perform, to be replaced by Foakes against Pakistan if he fails. I like him as a player but he needs to deliver), Bess, Wood/Archer (I admit that Archer's misjudgement is being held against him plus he runs hot and cold for me when bowling), Broad, Anderson/Woakes (if Anderson is not 100% fit)
WI: Brathwaite, Campbell (I would like to drop him but unable to find a replacement opening bat or even extra batsmen in the squad) , Hope, Brooks, Chase, Blackwood, Dorwich, Holder, Roach, Joseph, Gabriel/Cornwall/Reifer/Chemar Holder (I am afraid of Gabriel breaking down, so would go with one of the other bowlers)
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Very fickle supporters of England.
- Loss or draw looks likely - batters too slow, bowlers very poor, people who support slower strike rates silent, WI decent side who should push England.
- Bowler in question takes a few wickets - what a champion
- England win game - silent supporters of under fire bowlers and batsman suddenly find a voice again, WI number 8 test playing nation and did well to push England, English pride restored.
I'm exactly the same with my national teams and I'm not proud of it.
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If Stokes isnt fit to bowl you either gamble on 3 seamers and the spinner backed up by root or drop a batsman to get one of Curran or Woakes in at 7. Think Id do the former with Anderson and Archer and Wood well rested.
Or even potentially drop bess and have root as your spinner. Harsh but possible
What would you do? From within the current squad of course :D
Stokes is fit looks like it was precautionary. I generally say don't change a winning team but that would leave out Anderson who is our best bowler
as @Manormanic says..we could have different seamers probably with the same result..
Archer and Wood don't play and unsure whether Bess or Leach would be best. Bess has a lot potential and long term he would be best I think, in a one off match Leach turning away from the right handers could work and it will turn.
To get Anderson in and all bowlers we could drop a batsman...or replace Woakes for Jimmy....and I think Woakes is a terrific bowler in our conditions.
My selection has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese but that's the best I can come up with.
:)
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I reckon the seamers you could fire off 10 different credible permutations, and Buttler won't get dropped until Smith pays the ransom so a much more interesting question. What would you do if Stokes was not declared fit to bowl?
Batsmen still stay the same. TMS were saying next pitch looks dry so Root will bowl a bit more and take up many of the Stokes overs. I think Bess is the better of the two spinners in the squad but Leach offers the variation to Root so he gets the shout. Jimmy comes back and Woakes beats out Curran. Broad stays. Jofra and Wood sit out again. I'm toying with the idea of Pope sitting out to get either Curran or Wood back in but I don't trust Buttler with the bat yet so he stays.
Burns Sibley Crawley Root Stokes Pope Buttler Woakes Broad Leach Anderson
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I do love a CBF selection and the 3rd test has so many possibilities among the bowlers!
I think the batters will stay the same, and is last chance saloon for Buttler.
Then the bowlers really depends on fitness (including Stokes). So could really be quite a few combinations.
Bess vs Leach is an interesting debate, as I thought Bess was struggling a little until he got Holder in the 2nd innings, but I can't see them changing things.
For me, Broad has to play, Anderson comes in and then it is a real toss of a coin between Archer and Woakes and it may depend on the wicket and Stokes fitness to bowl.
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Interesting a couple of us have Archer sitting out,that’s the way I would go.
Bess and Leach is tricky, for a one off game do you go with the guy who has been bowling or throw someone in with no cricket behind them?
I’m just going with Bess I think.
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The stark contrast when it comes to selection headaches is incredible between the two teams. I dont see any competition for places in this Windies squad. Their XI is the best they have and any changes will be a risk. England are blessed to have so much competition for all spots!
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top 7 is pretty set for friday.
question is do they rotate the quicks. best bowlers are probably Anderson, Broad, Archer, Woakes, Wood then Curran in that order
only issue is ABA are all proper bowlers, i.e. they can't bat. which means you have to pick Bess Curran or Woakes in that no 8 spot.
the question then becomes, to balance the team, as Bess at 8 is too high - do you leave out Anderson for Woakes...
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The stark contrast when it comes to selection headaches is incredible between the two teams. I dont see any competition for places in this Windies squad. Their XI is the best they have and any changes will be a risk. England are blessed to have so much competition for all spots!
Regarding the WI, I can see Cornwall coming in for Gabriel as he looked like he was struggling in this test let alone another 1 back to back. That would give them a designated spinner on what should be a turning track.
I don't think there is anyone for the batting.
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Archer cleared to be available for selection for Friday.
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England (teammo) 325/9 off 40 vs England (teammorgs) in a one day warm up
bairstow smashed 100 and mo a quickfire 75
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England (teammo) 325/9 off 40 vs England (teammorgs) in a one day warm up
bairstow smashed 100 and mo a quickfire 75
You can watch a live stream on the ECB website like the previous test warm ups, no sound like before though unfortunately.
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Did Eng finally get the opener it was always looking for :D
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West Indies poised to bench Campbell and Hope. Uncapped Joshua Da Silva tipped to make debut - he scored 133* and 56* in their second warm up game. Cornwall and Oshane Thomas could also get a look in.
Shai Hope or Peter Fullon - who’s the more surprising to have scored hundreds in each innings of a test?
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Two Meter Peter easily.
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Shai Hope in 'bloke who averages 52 in ODIs is quite good at cricket' shock.
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Two Meter Peter easily.
Haha yeah he was hopeless.
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I think it'll come down to the pitch. If it looks like a green, seaming paradise with overcast skies, then you would be a fool to not choose Anderson and probably Woakes too.
If it is dry and bouncy, then Wood or Archer would have to be picked. Wood bowled faster so I'd be tempted by him, Archer seemed slower than normal.
Burns Sibley Crawley Root Stokes Pope Buttler...
Bess (Offers more with the bat than Leach, who would make the tail too long and isn't special enough to go above him).
Woakes/Archer/Wood (I really like Woakes but if it is a quick pitch would go with one of Archer or Wood).
Broad (Came back with a bang. Can't deny him a spot)!
Anderson (He's England's best ever bowler. And he'll get to bowl from the James Anderson End during a test match. Legendary).
I think Buttler might produce the goods in this match. Which would be rubbish for Foakes, but bad form can't last forever... can it?
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The thing about these team selections discussions at the moment is that no one ever picks Curran.
Yet when he plays, England win.
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if everyone is fit i wouldnt change the side,
we have tests three tests against pakistan as well with the first at OT, keep this side win the series then make changes to rotate vs pakistan
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The thing about these team selections discussions at the moment is that no one ever picks Curran.
Yet when he plays, England win.
Tim Bresnan was the same. Its hard to tell whether its a statistical freak or whether Curran brings something intangible that is not obvious from the TV screen.
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Tim Bresnan was the same. Its hard to tell whether its a statistical freak or whether Curran brings something intangible that is not obvious from the TV screen.
Yes very much so. Perhaps a different angle and a mature brain for a youngster combined.
Looks like Archer is increasingly unlikely to play as the fallout continues from the lockdown breach. Plus some idiots who want to abuse him on social media.
I wouldn’t pick him-going with unchanged same as @alexhilly1492 ...maybe leaving a batsman out to get Anderson in.
If Campbell is dropped Bess would be bowling to all right handers which is a difficult call with Leach available.
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The thing about these team selections discussions at the moment is that no one ever picks Curran.
Yet when he plays, England win.
There is something about Curran. I like him. I just think Woakes is better.
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Confirmed Stokes is carrying a niggle so BBC say we may need bowling cover
Retain the spinner and then Anderson,Archer or Wood or Root to fill in the spinners role?
Tricky call...I always like a spin option so I’m going with Anderson in and that means we leave out a batsman
Sibley for his strike rate?
Just kidding :)
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If you lose a batsman (Pope or Crawley?), then woakes has to play to shorten the tail.
Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Butler, Woakes, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson ?
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Exactly right Cat.. Woakes and Curran? remain in with one batsman out
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If we drop a batsman, more so Crawley, it means shuffling the batting order. Root doesn’t like 3. Would Pope bat 3?
Easiest option would be 4 quicks and Root as the spinner
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If we drop a batsman, more so Crawley, it means shuffling the batting order. Root doesn’t like 3. Would Pope bat 3?
Easiest option would be 4 quicks and Root as the spinner
It would and the weather may play a part in the final decision.its a tough call either way. A batsman out would prob be number 6 for a one off match
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It is much easier to choose a balanced team if you leave out Anderson, I also don't think he is one of our too three out and out bowlers any more.
Depending on the pitch, I would be tempted to leave out Bess and play Woakes, Curran, Archer and Broad.
If we need a spinner I would reluctantly not pick Sam.
They aren't going to change the batting so, that is a bit of a non starter.
I suspect they will bottle it and go with Archer, Broad and Jimmy.
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Genuinely believe that root is better than ‘part time’
Not saying he’s a front line spinner by any stretch but I think that he could do a job if you wanted to pick 4 seamers
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I feel sorry for Anderson. He took 5/40 in his last test against South Africa, but I think this Old Trafford test match might have been where he would have wanted to retire, with a full home crowd. England's bowling attack is kind of ready to move on, too.
I hope he takes 20 wickets in this match though, if selected.
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It is much easier to choose a balanced team if you leave out Anderson, I also don't think he is one of our too three out and out bowlers any more.
Pardon?
Who are the three better than him?
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On form, Broad, Woakes and Jofra.
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By form you mean the one Test match hes played this summer? I'll give you Broad. Archer is still less consistent and Woakes no where near as threatening as Anderson.
With the Dukes ball hes lethal and Im pretty sure the Windies would be delighted if hes left out.
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Doesn’t Woakes have and even better record than Anderson in England? Not agreeing he’s a better bowler but ‘nowhere near as threatening’ is miles off the mark.
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Woakes has a better average in England than Anderson.
Plus with Stokes injured there is no safety valve if Jimmy breaks down.
This idea that a 38 year old who has only played one game without getting injured in a year is first choice is laughable.
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If Stokes can't bowl a full allocation then you need a lot of middle overs filling - Wood/Archer give you much more potency there and a different option. Given the skies in Manchester are grey (for a change) I can't see spin coming into it too much. I'd have Root bowling the 10-12 spin overs in the day and Wood/Archer/Broad/Anderson covering the balance. Knowing Stokes he'll probably bowl 5 anyway.
If you have to lengthen the batting then it's Woakes for Broad/Anderson. Personally I'd tell Archer to play responsibly for a change and bat him 8 with Wood 9 (who can bat), and Broad 10 who is capable albeit his head has gone. Frankly the top 7 should be getting us to 300+ - you can't pick bowlers based on batting ability when you have to bowl a side out twice in (probably) a shortened game to win the series.
Who would the Windies hate to face - Anderson (ridiculous skill and it'll swing around), Wood (pace), Archer (pace + swing). So it's those 3 plus Broad/Woakes I think.
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Woakes has a better average in England than Anderson.
Plus with Stokes injured there is no safety valve if Jimmy breaks down.
This idea that a 38 year old who has only played one game without getting injured in a year is first choice is laughable.
The idea that a man with 500+ test wickets is not first choice till the day he retires is more laughable.
Broad and Anderson 2nd and 3rd names on the teamsheet for me today (after Sir Ben).
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I think the only decision is Anderson or archer, and that should be based on conditions.
if its as slow as the last deck then why go for archer, surely Anderson will get the most of the conditions
burns
sibley
crawley
root
stokes
pope
buttler
woakes
bess
broad
archer/anderson
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The idea that a man with 500+ test wickets is not first choice till the day he retires is more laughable.
Broad and Anderson 2nd and 3rd names on the teamsheet for me today (after Sir Ben).
The whole "you get to always play and choose when you retire" thing is something I don't agree with. There isn't room for sentiment in this series. It is the deciding test and we need to win.
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Anyone from Manchester? What's the weather like??
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Anyone from Manchester? What's the weather like??
Grey but dry! Am about 2 miles down the road
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Some quality pre reading...
https://www.kingcricket.co.uk/which-england-pace-bowler-will-throw-the-biggest-strop-if-he-isnt-picked-for-the-third-test/2020/07/23/ (https://www.kingcricket.co.uk/which-england-pace-bowler-will-throw-the-biggest-strop-if-he-isnt-picked-for-the-third-test/2020/07/23/)
Innate narkiness: Pure grumpy.
Justification: England’s best bowler. Ever. There are still zero signs that he’s deteriorating with age and honestly, if you put your mind to it, you could probably make a reasonable case that he’s actually still improving.
Score: 30/20 (10 for narkiness, 10 for justification and a bonus 10 if he’s forced to sit and watch two consecutive Tests at a ground where they’ve NAMED A FRIGGING END AFTER HIM.
😂🤣😂🤣
And no I still wouldn't pick him.
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Weather looking ok Lads?
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crawley and curran miss out
everyone moves up one batting line up
archer and anderson come in
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The whole "you get to always play and choose when you retire" thing is something I don't agree with. There isn't room for sentiment in this series. It is the deciding test and we need to win.
I do agree no room for sentiment, however in this case I would select Broad and Anderson on skillset,experience, nous and the fact both their paces are more or less where they have been for their career. Teams are in, lets see how they go!
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Absolutely fine with that team, makes sense
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cornwall for jopseph for the windies too
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Good to see Root willing to take the bull by the horns and take command at 3.
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The no.3 batting position has to be the most unluckiest in the England team. No wonder Joe Root hates it. One unlucky dismissal and Crawley sits out. Also a poor call to leave Curran out. Should have been Woakes for Anderson. This reduces the variety in the attack.
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Question - is Pope's keeping really that bad to not give him the gloves, drop Buttler, then add a bowler that way?
Or is it a case of Buttler must play?
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Question - is Pope's keeping really that bad to not give him the gloves, drop Buttler, then add a bowler that way?
Or is it a case of Buttler must play?
Foakes would probably retire if they willing went down that route.
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instant justification why root doesn't want to bat 3, our batting line up looks very short by dropping crawley to make way for Anderson and archer
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Root needs to do a job here at 3 or this could turn ugly fast
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Question - is Pope's keeping really that bad to not give him the gloves, drop Buttler, then add a bowler that way?
Or is it a case of Buttler must play?
Whilst Ed Smith is selector. Jos has to play. It is written.
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this forum never ceases to amaze! We've gone from good team, great to see root at 3 to that's a terrible decision within 5 posts!
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Shocking captaincy on show with the management of Gabriel. So dumb.
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Shocking captaincy on show with the management of Gabriel. So dumb.
Captaincy or management? 3 tests this close together was always going to be tough for the seamers. There is a good reason England have rotated the big guys!
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Big old unit is Cornwall
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Oh Jesus Christ
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Time for the other lads to step up after that
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Why do we make Roston Chase look like Murali
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Rahkeem Cornwall with a great catch!!
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Why do we make Roston Chase look like Murali
Because he's a lot better bowler than people give him credit for IMO
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a lot of strapping on the west indian players hands? surely they cant all have the same hand injuries.
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a lot of strapping on the west indian players hands? surely they cant all have the same hand injuries.
Campbell’s basically got his whole hands bandaged up
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is there any rule about it, Its borderline wearing gloves.
I seem to remember david warner using a lot of strapping, and a few indian players as well last time England played them.
has to impact the condition of the ball?
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Not sure if Campbell's strapping in particular is related to the fact he has vitiligo
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Now which muppet was saying they weren't convinced by Pope? He's class!
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Now which muppet was saying they weren't convinced by Pope? He's class!
Looking much more like himself.
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The decision to bring Cornwall in is looking an odd one given that they were bowling first if they won the toss, Gabriel looked on his last legs in the second test, and Chase who has bowled very well in the first two tests is hardly getting a bowl.
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50 for buttler
And an innings more like what we'd want from him!
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Great day for England. Especially given where it nearly went...
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Pope really is a class above
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50 for buttler
And an innings more like what we'd want from him!
Shhhh praising of non Foakes keeper/batsman is frowned upon in these parts.
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Butler just got himself selected for the next series..not complaining, he's a special talent, good to see him back in form..
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Shhhh praising of non Foakes keeper/batsman is frowned upon in these parts.
I know! im a massive Foakes fan and think he should be a shoe in for the test side however i dont want to see anyone who is picked fail. buttler has shown a little today, still think foakes is the better option though!
that better? ;) :D
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A few of us would like to see Foakes get a good run in the side but very pleased for a Butler haven’t seen much but tracked it on line
Sounds like he got himself in and built an innings which is how he batted most of 2018
He has never really been a dasher in the five day game- from what I have seen he has tried to adapt...
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A few of us would like to see Foakes get a good run in the side but very pleased for a Butler haven’t seen much but tracked it on line
Sounds like he got himself in and built an innings which is how he batted most of 2018
He has never really been a dasher in the five day game- from what I have seen he has tried to adapt...
he batted nicely today, proper test inning with flashes of the one day buttler
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he batted nicely today, proper test inning with flashes of the one day buttler
If only he could learn to do that every innings. I cant see it personally, hes had enough time to figure it out and to improve on his record
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Happy for Buttler. Hope he comes through in the morning!
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If only he could learn to do that every innings. I cant see it personally, hes had enough time to figure it out and to improve on his record
Did anyone see the bit Nasser did on Buttler in the 3rd Man slot.... it was very interesting about his front foot movement because you could definitely see a difference in it in his innings.
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Absolute howler of a drop
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Ah absolutely gutted for young Ollie, deserved a ton
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200 test wickets for Roach - modern day West Indies great
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Great start today eh
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Windies have been outstanding this morning!
Except for the drop
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One goes, they all do
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In these conditions we will skittle the West Indies
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What has happened to Archer’s supposed batting ability?
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Got to admire Gabriel, still running in hard with pace.
Bess might as well have a hit now
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Broad pogo’s a massive sixer! Marvellous
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I will never not love Stuart
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Not unhappy about being all out in this weather, put on a decent amount this morning and try and get a few out before it rains
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This is peak Broad
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Tame end to a brilliant innings
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Excellent from Broad, just what we needed with a batsman short
Root has a lot of options with the bowling, he should be able to avoid long spells and keep them fresh
Hopefully :)
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Excellent from Broad, just what we needed with a batsman short
Root has a lot of options with the bowling, he should be able to avoid long spells and keep them fresh
Hopefully :)
And still end up resorting to use Stokes :o
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369 all out. Can see a West Indies collapse here.
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A reminder that Broad should never have been dropped
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Stokes shells Campbell, Anderson not amused
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That's a beauty from Jofra
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Shai Hope flops again, number 588 for Anderson.
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Nobody celebrappeals like Broady, so good
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That's a peach from Woakesy
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137-6 early finish due to poor light. Dowrich fortunate to survive fiery Archer spell.
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Ah, the no ball
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Woakes gets Holder off a no ball and it was a stunning grab by Pope
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Really don’t understand why they tell Archer to bowl short. It takes away from his natural skill set. He’ll soon lose motivation if they insist on Archer being some sort of enforcer
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Follow on avoided not that we probably would’ve enforced it.
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We do seem to get the quicker bowlers on and bang it in with the old ball fairly often. I remember Wood doing it in one match quite a lot.
Not sure that really works.
Wicket for Broad thou
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The 2nd and 3rd names on my teamsheet are doing pretty well
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Again, Broad on another level
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I love to see a 100-0 opening partnership. Wonderful stuff.
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Really can't understand why we're still batting here
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They are not going to get 380 batting last we do need to gamble- hope we are bowling for 30-45 mins tonight with tommorows forecast
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Well bowled Stuart !
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Broad could easily get a 10-fer in the match here! Fingers crossed.
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Write Stuart Broad off at your peril
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I reckon Broad must have got a great deal on weetabix!
Next he'll be walking on water. The jury is out on his headband though :D
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They are not going to get 380 batting last we do need to gamble- hope we are bowling for 30-45 mins tonight with tommorows forecast
380 gives a buffer if the forecast for tomorrow is well off. If it isn't, then Root can set a hyper attacking field from the first ball on Tuesday.
Also worth considering that we know the Windies are poor at batting time. If they know the target is out of reach then they know they have to go against their instincts. Bit of doubt in the mind, let them make mistakes.
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Looks like its going to be rained off today. tomorrow is also slight rain prediction acc. to metoffice.
With such bad weather forecast, and almost lead of 200, the way sibley and burns batted after lunch was outrageous. going at 2 per over in 30 odd overs was beyond belief. Such selfish batting playing for themselves and not for the team. had england batted hard 35-40 overs yesterday, the english bowlers would have another more hour or so to bowl at windies.
God forbids if weather plays a spoil and ends in a draw, you do have to question the tactics of openers and the england thinktank for sending these slow openers.
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Looks like its going to be rained off today. tomorrow is also slight rain prediction acc. to metoffice.
With such bad weather forecast, and almost lead of 200, the way sibley and burns batted after lunch was outrageous. going at 2 per over in 30 odd overs was beyond belief. Such selfish batting playing for themselves and not for the team. had england batted hard 35-40 overs yesterday, the english bowlers would have another more hour or so to bowl at windies.
God forbids if weather plays a spoil and ends in a draw, you do have to question the tactics of openers and the england thinktank for sending these slow openers.
I’m sure they were just doing what they were asked, accusing them of being selfish at that level seems way over the top
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You can’t really play the forecast. They said Saturday was a total washout, then it wasn’t. Root would’ve looked a fool if he declared at 280-320 and then the weather clears up. Probably not gonna be an issue either way.
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I’m sure they were just doing what they were asked, accusing them of being selfish at that level seems way over the top
This has to be right, it's all planned and discussed.the steady start gave us momentum in the innings and Root had licence to play with a bit more freedom.
To suggest the two openers were selfish is not really how it works, it's not a club match.
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Looks like its going to be rained off today. tomorrow is also slight rain prediction acc. to metoffice.
With such bad weather forecast, and almost lead of 200, the way sibley and burns batted after lunch was outrageous. going at 2 per over in 30 odd overs was beyond belief. Such selfish batting playing for themselves and not for the team. had england batted hard 35-40 overs yesterday, the english bowlers would have another more hour or so to bowl at windies.
God forbids if weather plays a spoil and ends in a draw, you do have to question the tactics of openers and the england thinktank for sending these slow openers.
Terrible shout
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Looking at the openers England have had from 2012 to now, I'd far rather 50 and 100 run stands and the knowledge we have openers that, for now, can blunt the new ball and we can expect 50s and 100s from them.
We tried players like Roy, Hales, even Mo as openers. Didn't work out so well. In England they have to be able to play the swinging seaming ball amd if it means we sacrifice 2 runs per iver in doing so, i don't have an issue with that.
We'll win this test and the series.
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Looks like its going to be rained off today. tomorrow is also slight rain prediction acc. to metoffice.
With such bad weather forecast, and almost lead of 200, the way sibley and burns batted after lunch was outrageous. going at 2 per over in 30 odd overs was beyond belief. Such selfish batting playing for themselves and not for the team. had england batted hard 35-40 overs yesterday, the english bowlers would have another more hour or so to bowl at windies.
God forbids if weather plays a spoil and ends in a draw, you do have to question the tactics of openers and the england thinktank for sending these slow openers.
Sorry but to suggest that the Burns and Sibley were selfish is ridiculous. They are simply not going to decide the plan by themselves.
Root is not going to declare completely based on a forecast, because if its wrong he looks like a bit of a pratt.
I think what can be said is Sibley needs to expand his game against spin as he is getting tied down to easily not able to rotate strike etc....
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Sorry but to suggest that the Burns and Sibley were selfish is ridiculous. They are simply not going to decide the plan by themselves.
Root is not going to declare completely based on a forecast, because if its wrong he looks like a bit of a pratt.
I think what can be said is Sibley needs to expand his game against spin as he is getting tied down to easily not able to rotate strike etc....
We will be touring the sub continent in the near future, Sibley has a way of getting in and staying in-the improvements he needs are massively helped by having Thorpe there as batting coach...
Can’t think of anyone better to be in the England set up and help him expand his game
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We will be touring the sub continent in the near future, Sibley has a way of getting in and staying in-the improvements he needs are massively helped by having Thorpe there as batting coach...
Can’t think of anyone better to be in the England set up and help him expand his game
Definitely, Thorpe one of England's greatest ever players of spin.
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Meanwhile the ODI squad has been announced - and it would be hard for it to have been less adventurous!
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Meanwhile the ODI squad has been announced - and it would be hard for it to have been less adventurous!
No Hain, someone is having a laugh.
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Meanwhile the ODI squad has been announced - and it would be hard for it to have been less adventurous!
I think the new World Cup Super League thing may have influenced things a bit.
Not that I agree with the squad.
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You can’t really play the forecast. They said Saturday was a total washout, then it wasn’t. Root would’ve looked a fool if he declared at 280-320 and then the weather clears up. Probably not gonna be an issue either way.
Agree here! We have been desperate for openers who build an innings ever since the Cook retirement! And Sibley ended on a strike rate of 42, which isn't that bad to be fair! And Burns was even higher, although he did start playing more freely once Root came in.
Sibley and Burns look like a decent pair of openers so far - they are not Ben Stokes or Joe Root so don't have the skillset to up the rate with crazy shots in the same way. Burns seems to be a little better at upping the SR but I wouldn't complain at either of them to be honest. They knew that today would be a wash out but Tuesday looked ok on Sunday. But needed a reasonable lead in case today was dryer than forecast! No good having a 250/300 lead if you think that Monday will be a washout, and then find that WI have 2 days to get the runs because the weather report was better than expected!!
Just keep fingers crossed that they can get 70-95 overs in tomorrow and esure that there is a result.
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No Hain, someone is having a laugh.
Would have been nice to see Hain! In fact, it would have been nice to have a few new guys in there - Phil Salt and Sam Hain would have been nice to see in action!!
Ireland are a half decent side. But better to try out Hain/Salt and similar young talents against Ireland than against stronger ODI teams?
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Would have been nice to see Hain! In fact, it would have been nice to have a few new guys in there - Phil Salt and Sam Hain would have been nice to see in action!!
Ireland are a half decent side. But better to try out Hain/Salt and similar young talents against Ireland than against stronger ODI teams?
Quite - You've got six "regular choices" - Bairstow, Roy, Morgan, Ali, Rashid, Tom Curran to form the spine of the side. Banton and Mahmood are definite ones for the next few years and Willey was very close to the WC squad, and I guess bringing Topley in is positive. I just don't get the selections of Denly, Dawson, Vince and Billings - not saying they should never be considered again but all four have been given multiple chances and found just short of the required. Surely a selection of Livingstone, Salt, Hain and Gregory (if we assume sticking to the bubble group) would be more positive?
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Quite - You've got six "regular choices" - Bairstow, Roy, Morgan, Ali, Rashid, Tom Curran to form the spine of the side. Banton and Mahmood are definite ones for the next few years and Willey was very close to the WC squad, and I guess bringing Topley in is positive. I just don't get the selections of Denly, Dawson, Vince and Billings - not saying they should never be considered again but all four have been given multiple chances and found just short of the required. Surely a selection of Livingstone, Salt, Hain and Gregory (if we assume sticking to the bubble group) would be more positive?
Not sure Billings has ever let England down when he has played agree about the others
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Not sure Billings has ever let England down when he has played agree about the others
Take your Kent glasses off Chris!
Billings averages 22.58 in ODIs and 17.40 in T20Is
You could argue he doesn't know his role (is he a stroke maker or is he a go out and blitz it player) in the England side but you can't say he's never let England down. He's failed more than he's fired at international level.
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I think people will never be satisfied. If all the batsmen went for big hitting and england folded for say 100 odd, then WI would have been in the game and same people would be criticizing Eng for bad approach. Also the way the eng openers batted should not be seen only in context of current game but should be seen towards future as well. It is important to give them and team confidence going into future as well, getting 100 all out would create doubts in the team and shatter the confidence...Also, they were in day 3, cant play like it is day 5 trying to set target. As many pointed out, if no rain happened, then fast (and risky) batting would have even cost them the game.
Lastly, Butler's selfless duck in previous test wouldn't get him in next time as much as a decent average/score. His relationship with Ed/what video he has of Ed is a different matter though :D
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Not sure Billings has ever let England down when he has played agree about the others
Billings hasn't exactly let England down, but I do think that he hasn't shown the same quality at the higher level yet.
Out of Denly, Dawson, Vince and Billings, I think that Billings may be the more exiting player if he can genuinely step up. Although with Banton, Salt and Hain you would surely have enough potential "young blood" fire power.
It is rather nice to have the luxury of so many young potential players around!! In the "olden" days, the English teams mostly picked themselves and were pretty straight forward, with not too much discussion needed.
But to have so many players in the running and so many future hopefuls is kinda nice! :D
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Hopefully we can get 30-40 overs in tomorrow. Should be more than enough
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Take your Kent glasses off Chris!
Billings averages 22.58 in ODIs and 17.40 in T20Is
You could argue he doesn't know his role (is he a stroke maker or is he a go out and blitz it player) in the England side but you can't say he's never let England down. He's failed more than he's fired at international level.
Fair to say he probably hasn't had the clearest role, my thinking is mostly around the Borderline brainless dismissals as he has tried to go too hard.
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We could field a decent B team at international level if you add in Hales.
Most of us who have watched England for so long know some of the fringe players now would of been certs 10 years ago-but the standard has risen so high Billings unless he is replacing Butler won't get in the A team-and he's not in Butlers class.
Same goes for a few others-whether Hales is a muppet(he is) is subjective but we are good enough to do without him.
I would of liked to see us plan a little for the next WC...Banton is an exciting player, can't really see why Vince and Willey are there, or Topley-he has had 10 clubs in 5 years and is injury prone.
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Most of us who have watched England for so long know some of the fringe players now would of been certs 10 years ago
You'll be saying Jamie Dalrymple wouldn't even get near a current England squad next... 🤣😂
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We could field a decent B team at international level if you add in Hales.
Here we go...
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Take your Kent glasses off Chris!
Billings averages 22.58 in ODIs and 17.40 in T20Is
You could argue he doesn't know his role (is he a stroke maker or is he a go out and blitz it player) in the England side but you can't say he's never let England down. He's failed more than he's fired at international level.
As I said never let England down, normally given his wicket away getting quick runs at the end.
Batting wise no my as good as Butler but his glove work is certainly better and I would hand on heart say probably the best of all the young England keeper batsmen. Bit unfortunate in the time he has played to have been surrounded by so many talented white ball players to have only played a handful of games really
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As I said never let England down, normally given his wicket away getting quick runs at the end.
Batting wise no my as good as Butler but his glove work is certainly better and I would hand on heart say probably the best of all the young England keeper batsmen. Bit unfortunate in the time he has played to have been surrounded by so many talented white ball players to have only played a handful of games really
If 29’s young who are we calling our old WK/batsmen 😉
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I kinda thought Billings was going to be a second Buttler but it has never quite happened. I quite like him. He has captaincy experience now too... Probably not a bad guy to have around the team at least!
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I kinda thought Billings was going to be a second Buttler but it has never quite happened. I quite like him. He has captaincy experience now too... Probably not a bad guy to have around the team at least!
He's a decent sub fielder, I'll give him that. But I cannot see a way that he becomes a key part of English ODI or T20 teams so I'd rather see the next generation of players being given a shot.
Salt, for example, is 6 years younger and looks far more of a prospect in T20 cricket. Hain is 4 years younger and has the highest List A average of all time (caveats on number of games played included).
Both those guys would benefit from time around the squads and a few games against lesser (sorry Ireland) opposition.
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If 29’s young who are we calling our old WK/batsmen 😉
Didn’t realise he was almost 30 so yea maybe not that young in terms of the professional game,
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STUART BROAD THE GOAT
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Fantastic effort and heading for man of the series!
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That is outstanding from Dom Bess
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#WoakesOut
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I miss @Seniorplayer :(
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Top bowling today, I love seeing bowlers attack the stumps.
Well played Broad and Woakes.
Bess didn't bowl a single over in the match... TFC 😂
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So we were playing the extra bowler today and probably 1 batsman light - luckily we were in a position where we didn't need the extra on this occasion.
If Stokes hadn't had that niggle then we would have played Crawley at 3 and one of the bowlers would have been running drinks!
But what happens in August against Pakistan? Assuming Stokes is back to his full all-round batting and bowling, who gets the nod to bowling and who is left carrying the drinks?
Will keep it in this topic for the moment, but any opinions about what the England Test starting Xi should be chaps?
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So we were playing the extra bowler today and probably 1 batsman light - luckily we were in a position where we didn't need the extra on this occasion.
If Stokes hadn't had that niggle then we would have played Crawley at 3 and one of the bowlers would have been running drinks!
But what happens in August against Pakistan? Assuming Stokes is back to his full all-round batting and bowling, who gets the nod to bowling and who is left carrying the drinks?
Will keep it in this topic for the moment, but any opinions about what the England Test starting Xi should be chaps?
For me it would be Crawley coming back in for archer, but I just think a seam attack of Anderson, broad, woakes and stokes is perfect for English conditions.
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For me it would be Crawley coming back in for archer, but I just think a seam attack of Anderson, broad, woakes and stokes is perfect for English conditions.
Yes one thing to consider in home matches is how much we need out and out pace to win the game.
I've said it before but Woakes rarely lets us down in home series, if you ignore the number of wickets overall he is up there with Broad and Anderson as a quality bowler.
You will get games like the Oval when it's dry that are batting shirt fronts but that's still quite rare.
I make our best 3 seamers Broad, Anderson and Woakes. You do want a spinner I think even thou Bess did not bowl in this game.Crawley back at 3 for Pakistan.
So I'm afraid in my team the gun Archer is a bit over hyped for me. And sits behind the rest for selection.im convinced he won't play much test cricket anyway.
So Wood and Archer potentially for one reserve place in the 12 but not in the 11
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Unfortunately missed all of yesterday’s action had something else to undertake. Anyway just caught the highlights on Sky.
Woakes was magnificent and once again showed why he’s the third bowler in home conditions. Broad top effort 500 wickets not many have got there.
Anderson and archer looked short on form, almost like they need a couple of county matches to get some miles in their legs but that’s not possible this summer.
On the West Indies side if you’re trying to draw a match, why was Hope wildly hacking one up in the air? And Chase with a suicidal run out. Truly terrible game management.
2-1 fair result.
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The Pakistan series is the same as this, three tests in 21 days, so there is sod all chance of us playing the same XI every week. We'll likely use 5 or 6 pacers over the three, even if Wor Sturkes is somehow fit to bowl three times
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Foakes not included for Pakistan. Against better teams Buttler's keeping will let England down and a few runs at 7 doesn't change that.
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Foakes is one of the reserves so he’s still next in line.
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Foakes is one of the reserves so he’s still next in line.
Buttler has had plenty chances to stake his claim. I don't see why Foakes can't be given the Pakistan series at least to stake his.
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Buttler has had plenty chances to stake his claim. I don't see why Foakes can't be given the Pakistan series at least to stake his.
To be fair to Buttler he's just batted England out of a hole (122-4) in a series winning victory when they had a short batting lineup. Also made useful 30/40s in the first innings of the first two tests, and threw his wicket away for the team second innings in the second test (and arguably first innings batting with the tail).
Ok he averaged 30, but when you overlay the context he made good contributions to the winning of the series.
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Not sure I believe that Foakes isn't capable of useful 30s and 40s and the occasional rescue act when batting with someone talented and in form (Pope). Add in Foakes superior ability with the gloves and it's a no brainer for me.
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Not sure I believe that Foakes isn't capable of useful 30s and 40s and the occasional rescue act when batting with someone talented and in form (Pope). Add in Foakes superior ability with the gloves and it's a no brainer for me.
True but whilst he is performing to the standard required and we are winning, why change? I think it is undoubtedly the case that his batting has a higher ceiling than Foakes also - albeit he isn't accessing that at present (but is possibly moving in the right direction with some of his technical changes).
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The only thing Buttler has over Foakes is that he can up his strike rate better and play some amazing shots! But so can Root, Stokes and Pope!
I think Buttler should absolutely be playing in the T20 and most definitely the ODI England side. But I just think Foakes is the better option. A Test average of over 40 with the bat plus being the best keeper we have is surely a better option? Plus having Stokes, Foakes and Woakes would open the door for loads of decent crowd songs and chants! And that's a good thing :D
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Foakes was hitting bombs into the stands vs Sri Lanka so he can definitely "up his strike rate" if the situation calls for it.
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Hats off to WI and Pak for stepping up and giving us something to watch.
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Hats off to WI and Pak for stepping up and giving us something to watch.
Absolutely WI took a pay cut to come here,stay in the bubble for ages with little freedom. In the end they just ran out of gas, I thought myself they would beat us or a drawn series.
We....as in England....as in the ECB....now owe the a West Indies the right to make some money. Because of our travelling fans the away tour is priceless to the Islands for revenue.
I hope we do the right thing and squeeze in something. Time for the ECB to lead the way forward
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Unless Buttler gets like 10 ducks in a row I don’t see him being dropped. Ed Smith has already been forced to ditch Denly. Also ditching Buttler would pretty much mean he’s admitting he’s a poor chairman of selectors
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Absolutely WI took a pay cut to come here,stay in the bubble for ages with little freedom. In the end they just ran out of gas, I thought myself they would beat us or a drawn series.
We....as in England....as in the ECB....now owe the a West Indies the right to make some money. Because of our travelling fans the away tour is priceless to the Islands for revenue.
I hope we do the right thing and squeeze in something. Time for the ECB to lead the way forward
The winter tours of Sri Lanka and India seem pretty unlikely given the rate that covid19 is spreading over there.
Once they abandon those tours, ECB can agree to go to the Caribbean instead
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If Foakes could average 40 with the bat over a period of time (Butler also averaged more than 60 in his first 3 tests) then it would be a huge advantage for England in an era lacking in top wicket keeper batsmen. I am not convinced that he could though.
Sri Lanka with its pitches lacking in pace bounce and lateral movement was an idea place for him to make his debut with a technique that sees him walk across his stumps and shovel to leg. He struggled afterwards in the Caribbean then had a rank 2019 in FC cricket. He looks to me to be a player who will struggle against international seam bowling.
We probably do need to be realistic as to what to expect from our keeper though in terms of run output. We have had 2 keepers in the history of test cricket who managed to average 40 over a long period. It can't really be the bench mark given it has seldom been achieved in almost 150 years of test cricket
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The winter tours of Sri Lanka and India seem pretty unlikely given the rate that covid19 is spreading over there.
Once they abandon those tours, ECB can agree to go to the Caribbean instead
At present yes this scenario does look very possible.
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The suggestion that we don't play a series against India is laughable. There is too much money involved. The series will be played. Likely to be in the UAE though.
There is notionally a gap in the calendar before Christmas though.
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Windies and Pak risked their lives in the middle of the pandemic to tour - couldn’t have been easy for them
England won’t be able to say no to touring pak now for non-covid related grounds
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Windies and Pak risked their lives in the middle of the pandemic to tour - couldn’t have been easy for them
England won’t be able to say no to touring pak now for non-covid related grounds
Im not sure of your logic here - Because Pakistan toured in a bio bubble due to a respiratory illness the risk of potential terrorism in Pakistan is lessened? A crazy theory! Perhaps we could go sightseeing on the gaza strip aswell
I would hope that the ECB would treat each case individually. If its safe to tour Pakistan then happy days, would love to see England playing there again but this virus will have no bearing on the decision
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Im not sure of your logic here - Because Pakistan toured in a bio bubble due to a respiratory illness the risk of potential terrorism in Pakistan is lessened? A crazy theory! Perhaps we could go sightseeing on the gaza strip aswell
I would hope that the ECB would treat each case individually. If its safe to tour Pakistan then happy days, would love to see England playing there again but this virus will have no bearing on the decision
At the time of windies and pak jumping on a plane, the U.K. was in the top 3 for deaths and infection rates - bio bubble or not, they still risked their lives coming to a pandemic zone. Not to mention the fact that both sides were ethnic minorities.
Up to you where you want to go sightseeing but at the time sightseeing in Gaza was probably considered safer than coming to a country with such high infection rates
It heavily weigh in on their decision to tour both countries
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The suggestion that we don't play a series against India is laughable. There is too much money involved. The series will be played. Likely to be in the UAE though.
There is notionally a gap in the calendar before Christmas though.
If the tour to India is cancelled, India are still scheduled to tour England next summer anyway.
BCCI are more interested in the IPL then Test cricket.
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Up to you where you want to go sightseeing but at the time sightseeing in Gaza was probably considered safer than coming to a country with such high infection rates
🤣🤣🤣 this is an amazing take.
I'd love to see us go and tour the Windies and Pakistan this winter though, but sadly I don't see the ECB doing it.
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I can't wait for a future tour of Pakistan, but it isn't happening just yet. It will be amazing when it happens though! Aren't Bangladesh touring there soon?
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Trott named batting coach for the Pakistan Test series.
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Hameed has scored 50 in each innings on debut for Nottinghamshire, get him into the Test bubble ASAP!!
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Hameed has scored 50 in each innings on debut for Nottinghamshire, get him into the Test bubble ASAP!!
Ignoring the inevitable hyperbole, it's great to see him back in the runs. Sounds like he had a pretty crap time at Lancs towards the end of his stint there, still a young player with a lot of talent and potential.
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Misbah suggests Pakistan will play 5 bowlers and both leg spinners at Old Trafford. They’ll have an epically long tail if that’s the case.
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Ignoring the inevitable hyperbole, it's great to see him back in the runs. Sounds like he had a pretty crap time at Lancs towards the end of his stint there, still a young player with a lot of talent and potential.
He has moved for the better, sometimes a change can work. The stuff Allott put out to the press near the end showed he needed to move Counties.
There’s a few good young batsmen at Notts now with the right people around let’s hope he does well.
I’m sure there’s a few of us would like to see a solid season and a B side tour before he is talked about for the main side.
He’s got a lot of talent and that needs working on,still a very young player.
I’m not a Notts fan but would like to see Clarke push on too.
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Hameed has scored 50 in each innings on debut for Nottinghamshire, get him into the Test bubble ASAP!!
Peter Moores strikes again!
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England v Pakistan: Ben Stokes bowls as he bids for fitness in first Test - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53642232 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53642232)
Well that's good news
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England v Pakistan: Ben Stokes bowls as he bids for fitness in first Test - [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53642232[/url] ([url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53642232[/url])
Well that's good news
Yep sure is.more so for Crawley...he could come back in but which bowler misses out?
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Yep sure is.more so for Crawley...he could come back in but which bowler misses out?
I think it depends how much they want to rotate, i mean Wood hasn't played since the 1st Windies test so must be raring to go. But i would actually be tempted not to change it much and just leave either Archer or Bess out pitch dependent.
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Anderson would probably be more likely to be rotated, he wasn’t very effective against West Indies either. But it could be potentially his last test at Old Trafford. I’d probably leave out Archer
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I think I would leave out Archer too, Jimmy hasn’t been that effective that’s very fair. I’d back him to have a good match next thou.
We certainly have a lot of seamers who could do a job-not sure I remember having so many quality ones available in the past.
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He has moved for the better, sometimes a change can work. The stuff Allott put out to the press near the end showed he needed to move Counties.
There’s a few good young batsmen at Notts now with the right people around let’s hope he does well.
I’m sure there’s a few of us would like to see a solid season and a B side tour before he is talked about for the main side.
He’s got a lot of talent and that needs working on,still a very young player.
I’m not a Notts fan but would like to see Clarke push on too.
Agreed. I feel like Hameed is someone who would really benefit from getting the mental side of his game perfectly squared away before making that step up again. He's good enough, we all know that - and I hope his time will come. Hameed and Sibley batting together would be pretty slow though :D :D :D
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Last game in the Ireland series today. Hope we give Banton a chance up the top of the order! Livingstone in for Vince would be good to see too.
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We are batting. Vince is the side not sure we know anymore about him than we did before.
Would like to see him and Banton swap numbers with Banton 3. He looks to have an aggressive game at the top of the order for his County
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We are batting. Vince is the side not sure we know anymore about him than we did before.
Would like to see him and Banton swap numbers with Banton 3. He looks to have an aggressive game at the top of the order for his County
Seen nothing from Vince to suggest he adds value to the ODI side. Still believe he could be a real asset in T20 though.
Would be good to see Banton given a shot at the top of the order alongside Bairstow or Roy. Has the game to emulate what they've both achieved if he's given the chance. Another one who may, for now, be better value in T20s.
It's also been good to see Willey emphasise his all round credentials in white ball cricket. Easily forgotten that he is a seriously decent bat as well as a quality swing bowler.
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This was coming..... i really dont see how we can bat like this at the top of the order with the team they have put out.
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Surprised Banton isn’t at 4.
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Surprised Banton isn’t at 4.
I assume the plan is for the experienced hand to help steady the ship
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Vince using that outside edge magnificently...
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Morgan please sort your grip out
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Vince out via the inside edge...progress I guess
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When Banton gets hold off it, it sounds magnificent of his bat. Serious power.
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Morgan dashing half century. Some stunning shots
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First ODI 50 for Banton, hes looked good today
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Root says one of Archer/Wood will definitely play. So we might be sticking with the same composition 6-5 split and no Crawley again.
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The real test starts today! Eng vs Pak! Really looking forward to see this match up. Two strong bowling line ups. Batting could prove to be Pakistan's Achilles heel. This will also be a good test for the young England batting lineup. Bring it on!
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Having a bowl then. Pakistan playing two spinners seems, err, stupid?
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Having a bowl then. Pakistan playing two spinners seems, err, stupid?
Yes, expecting Shadab to play the all rounder's role. I dont think he is good enough in either department.
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Shadab Khan’s batting picked over Fawad Alam’s. Pakistanis have a meltdown on Twitter
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Shan’s Keeley looks nice!
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Absolute pill from Jof
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Woakes is the boss in English conditions
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Isn't Chris Woakes great?
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He’s right up there with out best two in our conditions.
Often panned on this forum, but does not let us down.
Probably his batting has gone down a bit while his bowling has gone up.
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Isn't Chris Woakes great?
Not sure why some England fans hate him - gets the ball to nip around at decent pace.
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Not sure why some England fans hate him - gets the ball to nip around at decent pace.
I think it's more a case of Woakes not being rated, but every team over the years has had players who contribute but perhaps don't hit the headlines with 100's or five fours...
A genuine allrounder he may not be, like Stokes for example who is, but add up the contribution over the match and he is there.
He comes across as a modest unassuming player and not one of the stars if you like.
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Think we could be starting to see the finish line for Anderson. He’s been below par so far this summer. And usually in home conditions that never happens
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He’s right up there with out best two in our conditions.
Often panned on this forum, but does not let us down.
Probably his batting has gone down a bit while his bowling has gone up.
Only by one bloke tbh, and he seems to have vanished
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The sooner Buttler is carted out of this side for good the better.
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That was a miserable hour
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Shadab Khan’s batting picked over Fawad Alam’s. Pakistanis have a meltdown on Twitter
The logic behind this decision is a mystery to me.
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The sooner Buttler is carted out of this side for good the better.
The thing is...Butler is ok as a keeper batsman. If we have a specialist keeper then most of the chances will be taken and half chances turned into real ones-that's the difference
I want Foakes in too but I think the logical way to look at it is in England chances will come. 350 or 400 is a decent score.
Away in Australia or India drop someone like kholi or Pujara on 40 and they will get a big ton that changes the match.
Same as you I don't get quite why Foakes batting is not better though of-he has a very decent FC record.
I actually think Butler has been given this summer and will revert back to one dayers, and then Foakes will come in.
England have not picked the best keeper since Jack Russell and that is a long time ago-they should change but will they?
Who knows (http://)
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With regards to picking a specialist keeper over the years, they mentioned last year on sky that stats show that the WK ‘mistakes’ have never added up to no where near the value of runs made (if they are making any of course)
On the flip side if Butler, for example, takes a screamer to get Kholi out on 40 could you say Foakes/JB might not have took that?
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Difference at the elite level shouldn't just be thought of in terms of mistakes though. If we assume that 'mistakes' doesn't cover things like half chances or chances that would take an absolute worldie of a catch, then it doesn't account fully for what a truly world class keeper brings.
Also doesn't account for the pressure it puts on a batsman knowing that any slip up is more than likely to be punished.
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I would guess the stats cover all these or they wouldn’t be worth using and, if they did equate to more than runs made as a batsman, then teams would pick a specialist wk.
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This debate would be a lot more valid if Buttler was averaging 40+
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I would guess the stats cover all these or they wouldn’t be worth using and, if they did equate to more than runs made as a batsman, then teams would pick a specialist wk.
What’s the definition of a specialist WK be. WK/batsman.
Or rather how did they define it for this comparison?
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Another howler from Buttler. How many effing times
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I would guess they are comparing runs scored following missed chances v runs scored by the keeper over a range of matches over a period of time?
What is a specialist keeper anyway? Someone who is a good keeper but not as good at batting?
How much should they average?
I’m neither side of the argument to be fair
And Butler has just missed a stumping as I type this!
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Big fan of Dom Bess bowling. Gets really good revs and momentum through the crease.
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This is going to be a competitive series! Exciting stuff.
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Of the current players only Joe Root has a better Test match average than Foakes. Better keeper and better average, but still can't get in the team. :(
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Of the current players only Joe Root has a better Test match average than Foakes. Better keeper and better average, but still can't get in the team. :(
I love Foakes but that isn't the most reliable stat to go off given that he has played 5 tests. He averages 38 at First Class level, so I'd expect him to average above 30 in Test cricket but certainly not 40.
Buttler is making a good case for Foakes at the moment though.
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I love Foakes but that isn't the most reliable stat to go off given that he has played 5 tests. He averages 38 at First Class level, so I'd expect him to average above 30 in Test cricket but certainly not 40.
Buttler is making a good case for Foakes at the moment though.
But he's done pretty well so far and some players step up at the higher level. Trescothick and Vaughan both have a better Test average than their First Class one. Even if he eventually averages mid 30's that's about the same as Buttler. I do feel it's been very poor that he hasn't been given the same sort of run in the side that has been given to others that haven't done so well.
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The point with Foakes is that he is a "proper" keeper and better than Bairstow and Buttler combined.
He also has a half decent 1st Class average and a better Test average. So the selectors need to pull their finger out and give him an extended chance to play some Tests.
Buttler and Bairstow are both excellent limited overs players. I would prefer to see Bairstow in the ODIs and Buttler in the T20s. Then battle it out with Pope to bat in the mid order of the Test side if they come into excellent form.
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The point with Foakes is that he is a "proper" keeper and better than Bairstow and Buttler combined.
He also has a half decent 1st Class average and a better Test average. So the selectors need to pull their finger out and give him an extended chance to play some Tests.
Buttler and Bairstow are both excellent limited overs players. I would prefer to see Bairstow in the ODIs and Buttler in the T20s. Then battle it out with Pope to bat in the mid order of the Test side if they come into excellent form.
We can dream...
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I’m a massive Buttler fan but the experiment has run its course. I’ve seen on Twitter clowns saying ‘Bess is (No Swearing Please)’. Granted I’m a Leach fan, but poor chap Bess was proper mugged off by Buttler’s ineptitude with the gloves.
History shows mediocre keepers can ruin bowlers careers.
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History shows mediocre keepers can ruin bowlers careers.
Yes just look at Kamran Akmal keeping stats. He has definitely ruined many bowlers careers.
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Lovely Jimmy
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Yeah good start, he hasn't been at his best so far as others mentioned.
Babar looked good, he's a talent
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Shafiq is a cracking little batsman, very underrated. Reminds me a little of Rahane
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Lovely Broady
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Shafiq is a cracking little batsman, very underrated. Reminds me a little of Rahane
Well jinxed sir :D
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Hard to see much more than 200-250 now
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What does archer actually bring to this side ?
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What does archer actually bring to this side ?
Swag and the promise of blistering pace which can blow away oppositions.
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What does archer actually bring to this side ?
Pace, bounce, seam and swing? He's also got some useful tricks up his sleeve, bowls a very good knuckleball and his slower balls are hard to pick with his very relaxed looking action. Gives the skipper another option in addition to Stokes when they want to try and unsettle a batsman with aggressive bowling plus Archer is also an exceptionally good fielder. Question is, what more do you want from a Test bowler?
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On a different note, interesting to hear from Azhar Mahmood on TMS that they've been telling Shaheen Afridi to start using a lighter bat and he's finally started using one. Might be interesting to see if it helps him any.
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Archer looks like he’s become Steven Finn. Instead of focusing of pace he’s now concentrating on control. I’d rather archer take 5-60 of 10 overs, that 2-45 off 20 overs. He’s a strike bowler not a stock bowler
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What does the England team have for lunch these days...?
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Archer looks like he’s become Steven Finn. Instead of focusing of pace he’s now concentrating on control. I’d rather archer take 5-60 of 10 overs, that 2-45 off 20 overs. He’s a strike bowler not a stock bowler
Steve Finn had to go back to Middlesex and Richard Johnson to rebuild his action. I'm a Middlesex fan it's my County but that was not England coaching a finest hour....I think that is an understatement :)
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Well jinxed sir :D
Sorry :o
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Been a bit pathetic post lunch. No intensity
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We are experts at taking the foot off the gas
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What would Woakes have to do to get the second new ball?! Root does bizarre things at times.
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Love a good turnaround story. Shan Masood - from Bunny to centurion
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Someone please fire the chef! Not sure what he is serving up to the England team at lunch. Same as yesterday!
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Archer looks like he’s become Steven Finn. Instead of focusing of pace he’s now concentrating on control. I’d rather archer take 5-60 of 10 overs, that 2-45 off 20 overs. He’s a strike bowler not a stock bowler
Then it's up to the skipper and the coaching team to give him those instructions and set fields accordingly. Can't blame a bowler if he is, presumably, executing the instructions he has been given.
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Love a good turnaround story. Shan Masood - from Bunny to centurion
Played well and deserved it. He has put in some time at the wicket for his team.
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What would Woakes have to do to get the second new ball?! Root does bizarre things at times.
Kick Anderson or broad in the groin...
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Then it's up to the skipper and the coaching team to give him those instructions and set fields accordingly. Can't blame a bowler if he is, presumably, executing the instructions he has been given.
Sorry but that’s nonsense. You think Tim Paine has to tell Starc to bowl fast?
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Bess with the new ball. End me...
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In Pakistan I see a seasoned side that has learned a lot from their last tour here, and has developed significantly. I'm not sure the same can be said for England... Perhaps we've gone sideways instead of forwards. Long way to go yet though.
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Another half chance gone begging
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Get him (No Swearing Please) binned
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That one is particularly poor from Buttler
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Disappointing from Buttler. That's 3 chances that have gone begging of Bess's bowling.
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That one is particularly poor from Buttler
Bess would have decent figures with a proper keeper, feel sorry for him.
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Bess looks good to me and that must be disheartening, Jos has had a bad game but that's going to happen as we have all done the subject to death, neither him nor Bairstow are good enough standing up.
But one point yesterday was made on here if you have a specialist and someone as good as Foakes or Read/Foster for example as a batsman you must think any mistake I make I'm going to be out-that must be in their heads and create pressure.
The only times I've batted in a club game with a high class keeper on the oppo you just know if they stand up to medium pace and you over balance you are gone.
You see the difference when keeping to spin, I've kept to medium pace in a league match, get a good spinner on and you cannot judge where the ball is going if it's turning especially down leg side as you are blinded by the batter.
We see this now hurting England, Pakistan have down well but these chances will haunt us last innings I think
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Sorry but that’s nonsense. You think Tim Paine has to tell Starc to bowl fast?
I think Starc is given a clear plan and has appropriate fields set. Part of the role of the captain and coach is to provide plans and instructions for bowlers.
If you think that teams employ bowling coaches and data analysts and then tell their bowlers "(No Swearing Please) it, bowl what you like" then I'm afraid that you're talking 'nonsense'.
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Can't throw now either. Absolute fraud
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Can't throw now either. Absolute fraud
Looks like his head has gone completely. At this point would it maybe even be to his benefit to be dropped?
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He won't be dropped, becuase our head selector is a bellend
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If we lose and Masood's hundred is the deciding factor, Buttler has to go.
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We are in proper trouble here. Every Pakistan side I've seen since god knows when have had good bowling. We are batting last against 2 spinners as well.
The chances will cost us I think, either in the next hour or the last innings.
Plus 300 looks pretty good.very good batting but it should of been 250
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Why are we so poor in opening tests?
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Christ gone already.
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2 down!!
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This is an utter mess
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Clearly showing we bowled too short
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If you give the oppo too many chances the cricket Gods punish you :)
Who has worked out the equation how many Jos needs to get back in credit? 200?
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If you give the oppo too many chances the cricket Gods punish you :)
Who has worked out the equation how many Jos needs to get back in credit? 200?
Better make it 300 for good measure :(
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This is an utter mess
It’s high quality bowling.
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Pakistan are a world-class side. We are not going to win this series... Completely different proposition to the Windies.
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He won't be dropped, becuase our head selector is a bellend
They'll probably drop Bess for not getting enough wickets!!!!
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They'll probably drop Bess for not getting enough wickets!!!!
And play Buttler as our spinner! :D :D
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It’s high quality bowling.
It is and Pakistan have had good bowlers since some of us have been watching. Credit to Pak batsmen but Eng cannot afford to give four or five chances.
We are not that good we can make up for those misses
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Yasir just turned one square
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Flat track bully root fails - looked out of sorts
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Root throwing it away. Sigh.
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Root gives it away far too many times, you got to make them earn your wicket old style.
Pope meanwhile looks like he's playing against a different opposition. He could run out of partners!
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It’s high quality bowling.
Really enjoyed watching a session of really high quality bowling but from and England perspective only Stokes got out of a decent ball. Burns and Root got out to dreadful shots
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Young Mr. Pope is putting up a good fight!
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Slightly bitter interview from archer - Glad holding told it how it was.
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Slightly bitter interview from archer - Glad holding told it how it was.
What did he say?
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What did he say?
Said it wasn’t the surface to bowl quick which holding disagreed
Also had a slight pop at the pak quick
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Really enjoyed watching a session of really high quality bowling but from and England perspective only Stokes got out of a decent ball. Burns and Root got out to dreadful shots
Not sure walking down the wicket to your second ball allows you to claim it was a top nut.
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No shame getting out to high class bowling. Pope was a revelation- superb counterattack. This is going to be a fantastic series.
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Seems like archer is finding this Test cricket business a whole lot tougher than what he’s been doing in recent years. Test vs T20 is totally different. Archer’s been making millions bowling 4 overs per match. Plenty of breaks between T20 leagues.
His comments don’t seem to suggest he’ll be around the red ball scene for too long
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jos needs 112 min to redeem the drop from Masood tomorrow but god knows how many his keeping has cost England in this game.
There is no chance Foakes could be any worse over 41 tests with the bat than Butler Avg of 31 and his keeping is average at best in red ball cricket.
Not sure our batting is strong enough to ever leave a batter out for a bowler at the moment
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Would you rather have Ballance, Crawley or Lawrence at 3? Answers on a postcard :D
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Would you rather have Ballance, Crawley or Lawrence at 3? Answers on a postcard :D
Crawley or Lawrence don’t think personally there is much between them. From match reports and some reports etc from Key and Trott when he was the Kent batting coach Crawley plays spin very well by all accounts
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Seems like archer is finding this Test cricket business a whole lot tougher than what he’s been doing in recent years. Test vs T20 is totally different. Archer’s been making millions bowling 4 overs per match. Plenty of breaks between T20 leagues.
His comments don’t seem to suggest he’ll be around the red ball scene for too long
Yep....and it would be no surprise. There is something I can't put my finger on with Archer, it could be he needs a bit of special handling, perhaps his laid back personality does not come across as wanting to put in 100 per cent for the team, perhaps he thinks he's a gun player....
I dunno..I don't think anyone can be top pace over a days play but if he wants a quick wicket before he does bowl at top pace he will be waiting a long time playing in England.
I don't see Wood having that mentality or the Pak bowlers brought up on slow batting tracks.
Something is a bit off...
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Yep....and it would be no surprise. There is something I can't put my finger on with Archer, it could be he needs a bit of special handling, perhaps his laid back personality does not come across as wanting to put in 100 per cent for the team, perhaps he thinks he's a gun player....
I dunno..I don't think anyone can be top pace over a days play but if he wants a quick wicket before he does bowl at top pace he will be waiting a long time playing in England.
I don't see Wood having that mentality or the Pak bowlers brought up on slow batting tracks.
Something is a bit off...
Maybe his nose has been put out of joint by becoming second fiddle to Anderson/Broad.
Especially as in the Ashes he opened the bowling.
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I agree that there is something a little odd with Archer. Might do well with a sports psychologist... I'm not sure putting him for interviews while he is so green & brash is the best management from the ECB. He is special but he won't be for very long if he doesn't get the right management.
He could be a great or he could go the way of Alex Hales, Jessie Ryder and co. KP had his troubles too. I'd wonder if Archer might benefit from advice from senior players or ex-pros from a similar background to him as opposed to the privately-educated, white majority in and around the set-up. I know I would respond better to someone who shared my background or experiences.
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Didn't see anything wrong with Archer's interview personally. Seems fairly straightforward that you would bowl according to the conditions with the aim of taking wickets rather than the aim of registering as fast as you can on the speed gun.
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Does anyone have a link to this archer interview?
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I don't get it, why are people so quick to get on Archer's back? One innings where he doesn't bowl at the speed of light and he's getting compared to Jesse Ryder and Alex Hales?!
Thought he came across pretty well in the interview, pretty mundane end of play stuff? Seems fair that he'd bowl according to his assessment of conditions, although I thought his assessment of the innings was off the mark. Root hasn't got a clue what to do with him so he's clearly left to think for himself.
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For a bloke that used to be non stop smiles Joe Root seems to look pretty miserable most of the time these days! I think this team has all the players to be a very very good side but something is yet to click and I think that’s Joe Root making runs as he used to in the middle order
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For a bloke that used to be non stop smiles Joe Root seems to look pretty miserable most of the time these days! I think this team has all the players to be a very very good side but something is yet to click and I think that’s Joe Root making runs as he used to in the middle order
Root will want to see his contribution go up, it's gone down a lot since he became captain, I'm not surprised he may not smile as much as he used to.
The team is coming together I think, Roots batting stats are becoming those of an average test player, and that has been the case for a while now, and may carry on unless an alternative is found.
He is one of the best batsmen we have had in England, but your test average does not lie over a long period.
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Root will want to see his contribution go up, it's gone down a lot since he became captain, I'm not surprised he may not smile as much as he used to.
The team is coming together I think, Roots batting stats are becoming those of an average test player, and that has been the case for a while now, and may carry on unless an alternative is found.
He is one of the best batsmen we have had in England, but your test average does not lie over a long period.
My main concern with Root - and I honestly hate to be that guy because I'm still a big fan of Root - is that I don't think he wears the captaincy well. It is no reflection on your talent as a cricketer but cricket captaincy just doesn't suit some people. The fact that he has completely changed his bearing shows that it's just not a natural fit. That said I wouldn't say there was an obvious replacement without going down the same road.
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Maybe Archers been found out a little his data sample is very small and he is simply reverting to his norm which is a average test bowler.
Still his sample set is still very early though around 40 odd test/first class games.
It's the norm to overestimate people who either have a great start or show flashes.
For me he a decent test player who can go either way.
As for Root if you break down his stats there is a pattern forming I know it all numbers but cricket more than most sports is numbers based.
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My main concern with Root - and I honestly hate to be that guy because I'm still a big fan of Root - is that I don't think he wears the captaincy well. It is no reflection on your talent as a cricketer but cricket captaincy just doesn't suit some people. The fact that he has completely changed his bearing shows that it's just not a natural fit. That said I wouldn't say there was an obvious replacement without going down the same road.
The fact of the matter is a lot of people now see Stokes as our best batter not Root, and I think that shows his decline, as much as Stokes improvement.
His captaincy making his batting decline is one thing, also is he any good as an actual captain?
I believe England have 3 options to replace Root -
Stokes - this is risky, putting more burden on him, and could go the same way as Root, but i thing he would make a better captain.
Broad - vast player experience, captained the T20 side for a while as well, but if they want to keep rotating the bowlers it isn't possible.
Burns - left field choice, but don't forget he captained Surrey for a long time (and won the CC), is he going to be a permanent fixture opening though?
My choice would be Burns, yes it is a bit left field but he has the most captaincy experience which is what is needed, I think it would also give backing to 1 of the opening spots, of which I think he can be 1 definitely.
For me Stokes is far far too risky and Broad shouldn't be captain as they are obviously looking to rotate the bowlers.
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Roots not even out second best batter at the moment.
Regarding a potential replacement captain I think Burns is the standout candidate, as long as he doesn’t suffer a massive slump in form.
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Burns would be my shout if they replace Root. Broad might be a good vice captain but I'm always a bit dubious about bowling captains in Test cricket.
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Big day for Jos Buttler today. He looked a little deflated when keeping. Confidence is a funny thing though.Maybe all it will take is a big score for him to regain his confidence. For all the criticism, he does have the X-factor when in form. It will be tough going for sure if Yasir gets it right. The amount of turn he was getting yesterday was crazy. A few of those turners would have done Warne proud.
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I am not very confident about today
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Enjoying this bowling. Accurate, nagging.. testing .. pace, movement ..
Two batsmen fighting just to stay in..
Good stuff
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I’ve got to say I’m so impressed with Pakistan’s ethos and team ethic. Work super hard in the field, energy levels are up - bowlers really look like they’re giving it everything- I suppose it’s easy when you’re in a good position though!
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I’ve got to say I’m so impressed with Pakistan’s ethos and team ethic. Work super hard in the field, energy levels are up - bowlers really look like they’re giving it everything- I suppose it’s easy when you’re in a good position though!
Team spirit etc is always easy when going well .. the key is to see how team spirit is after a shed load of losses and bad form
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Team spirit etc is always easy when going well .. the key is to see how team spirit is after a shed load of losses and bad form
Yes, it would have been a very different story if Buttler would have caught/stumped Masood. That would have left Pak with a 200+ score and they would have been under the pump.
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I was hoping to find Pope on a double-hundred when I woke up. :(
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Sigh
There is no hope
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Big day for Jos Buttler today. He looked a little deflated when keeping. Confidence is a funny thing though.Maybe all it will take is a big score for him to regain his confidence. For all the criticism, he does have the X-factor when in form. It will be tough going for sure if Yasir gets it right. The amount of turn he was getting yesterday was crazy. A few of those turners would have done Warne proud.
Does he have the X factor in red ball cricket though? Even his good innings just seem to be him grinding out a 30/40/50 off 100* balls. There’s loads of guys could do that for free. I’m struggle to name innings where you’d say he showed something special, certainly multiple ones.
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Most innings I’ve seen he has tried to knuckle down and adapt to a test match role
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Most innings I’ve seen he has tried to knuckle down and adapt to a test match role
Which is not what he's selected for. If England want a 7 to grind out runs then Foakes is just as good an option with a higher FC and Test average.
I'd also add that Foakes has the X factor with the gloves which is arguably more important in Test cricket than X factor with the bat. England aren't short of guys who can score quickly and take the game away from teams either, a bit more grit wouldn't go amiss.
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This is village
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Weak as piss, as per usual
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Once again our batting is just so poor and this is a long tail. Woakes is not a test match No7 and Bess isn’t a No8.
This will be some shots played or all over very quickly now
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If we concede a lead of 120+, we would have to skittle Pakistan for 80-130 to stand any chance. Especially with how much turn Y Shah is getting
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I would add that Rizwan is showing Buttler how to do it, turning and bouncing ball from Yasir, standing up to Abbas. Very good display from him.
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Rizwan is a fantastic keeper - that catch he just took would have smacked butler in the shoulder
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As far as I'm concerned the game is gone. No point even trying at this rate...
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As far as I'm concerned the game is gone. No point even trying at this rate...
You must be fun to play with on a Saturday 😉
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Fret not England fans, you haven't met Pakistan's batting yet. They are highly capable of collapsing under 80! :D
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I would add that Rizwan is showing Buttler how to do it, turning and bouncing ball from Yasir, standing up to Abbas. Very good display from him.
This is why it is always good to have some level pressure on the players in the XI. He know that if he slips, Sarfaraz is ready to replace him whereas Butler knows that he has the backing of the coach.
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Broad doing his thing with the bat
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It bad but could of been worse
I’d like to see Archer really let it go now, proper hostile slow wicket or not
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It bad but could of been worse
I’d like to see Archer really let it go now, proper hostile slow wicket or not
The Barbados Steven Finn doesn’t merit Old Trafford as worthy of his 95mph vintage 😂😂😂
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I think it's time for England to give Foakes a go for minimum 10 test (pulled that number out of air)
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Butler could do us all a favour and just drop himself 4 byes 8th ball he faces
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Gifted one strangled down the leg side
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Gifted one strangled down the leg side
Didn’t catch that particular comfortably either
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And a drop. Yuck.
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Spinner getting it to really spit off the pitch now.
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Woakes is a Rolls-Royce. Great bowler.
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Woakes, is moving the ball around.
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Fret not England fans, you haven't met Pakistan's batting yet. They are highly capable of collapsing under 80! :D
This could come true :o
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Christ, another drop...
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This could come true :o
Reckon they’ve got around enough already though.
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Bess has been extremely poor
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I think it's too many now as well. stokes is on and it's a desperate move from Root
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Bess has been extremely poor
Showing his inexperience, would like to see Leach back for the next match, especially if someone grows a pair and selects Foakes.
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breakthru but why is Archer not saying to Root give me the ball I will clean up the tail.
He has bowled 5 overs and Stokes is risking injury to keep bowling...
100 per cent happy for anyone to point out what I am missing..really perhaps the heat is scrambling my thinking :)
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breakthru but why is Archer not saying to Root give me the ball I will clean up the tail.
He has bowled 5 overs and Stokes is risking injury to keep bowling...
100 per cent happy for anyone to point out what I am missing..really perhaps the heat is scrambling my thinking :)
How do you know he hasn't? The cameras aren't constantly focused on Root or Archer so how do you know?
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How do you know he hasn't? The cameras aren't constantly focused on Root or Archer so how do you know?
[/quote
That's a fair point I'm listening on the radio no Sky so cannot see even if that did happen-the Sky commentary in a bit more in depth also
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Stokesy making things happen
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These two teams never fail to provide cliffhangers
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If we pull off the win I don’t think Anderson, Archer and Bess should play at Southampton. Anderson looks below his best. Root clearly doesn’t fancy Archer when tonight would’ve been the perfect opportunity for Archer. Bess take him out of the firing line. Young boy really don’t want him to get mentally hurt.
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Anderson could have had about 5 wickets in this match if chances had been taken mind. He's not at his best but if the ball is doing a bit he's still dangerous.
Archer, despite being down on pace, has still not gone for many and taken a few wickets as well as chipping in a few runs. Admittedly strange that Root hasn't used him more.
Bess, agreed, let him go back to FC cricket and continue to develop a while longer. Leach is a better bowler at this point and Bess hasn't scored the runs to justify keeping him in the side.
For the love of God, get Foakes in the side and Root back to 4. It will be Crawley who'd come in at 3 but I would love to see Dan Lawrence given a chance as well.
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This could come true :o
There should be a way for me to make money on these things. :D
This is still anyone's game right now. Yasir Shah is a very spirited guy, he will try to score as much as he can tomorrow. His inning could make or break the match for Pak. On the other hand, Eng has a shot at this match if batsmen step up; Stokes could single-handedly end this match if he stays on the crease long enough.
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Bess I don’t feel has been to bad really. Wasn’t bowled in the last match as wasn’t needed as happens at time’s with spinners. Has Masood twice when only on 40odd but was let down by Butler. Got a decent ball that would have got many a better bat out early on.
Personally I don’t mind leach at all but to say he has been poor is a little harsh.
Biggest change needed as we have said for ages is Butler out and Foakes in.
Also think a real decision needs to be made with Stokes and bowling. This injury that prevents him bowling has happened a few time’s and it just messes the team up. We are not good enough or experienced enough to go with just 5 specialist batsmen that’s for sure and woakes, butler and probably Foakes are not good enough to bat at 6 & 7 that’s for sure as well
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But one Jonny Bairstow....
Nah, you guys have cemented that prejudice.
Serious point though, when Stokes was unfit to bowl, did no-one think about Denly for Bess?
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Would rather have Root bowling filth for 50 overs than Denly in the Test side as a bowler.
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If I'm reading Manors post right think he means Denly slots in at 3 and Root and Denly share the slow bowling
It gets another batsman in which is the problem we have when Stokes does not bowl-we are 1 batter or 1 bowler short if he not in the allrounders slot.
That's if I've read it correctly :)
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I think Stokes not being fit to bowl is an issue to be deal with as and when it happens. He’s not played many games where he’s not been fit to bowl. It would be odd to pick a side with 6 bowlers and lose a proper batter just on the basis that he may occasionally only be fit to bat.
Anyone know how many tests he’s played as a batter only out of his total number, potentially just the last two?
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Any thoughts on Anderson in this test? Feel a little underwhelmed by him so far.
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Root and Denly as frontline spinners? Pakistan can play spin very well!
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If I'm reading Manors post right think he means Denly slots in at 3 and Root and Denly share the slow bowling
It gets another batsman in which is the problem we have when Stokes does not bowl-we are 1 batter or 1 bowler short if he not in the allrounders slot.
That's if I've read it correctly :)
You have. With Woakes horribly out of touch with the bat we have too much of a tail so, given four seamers plus Stokes, part time spin might have been the sacrifice to make.
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Ollie Robinson added to the bubble ahead of second test
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Great start Jof
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Pakistan already have enough runs on the board.
This is just going to further demoralise England
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Yeah, game gone
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Just needs one player to make a score as Masood did in the first innings.
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interesting Nass and Atherton talking about how both Sibley and Burns have changed their techniques to Pakistan over the course of the innings - seemingly positively. I wonder if that's J Trott's influence? He does strike me as the sort of highly analytical player that could make a good coach.
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Awful umpiring overturned, feel like that was given out because of the appeal
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Argh Sibbers, why do that
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Soft soft soft soft soft
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Come on Ollie.
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Joe Root.. the new Ian bell?
Only scores "easy" runs or when series are dead?
I can't remember the last time he won a game for England? First captaincy game! 200 Vs South Africa?
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Young Pakistani bowler gave stokes the big stare and then ran off the pitch - probably soiled himself!
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Young Pakistani bowler gave stokes the big stare and then ran off the pitch - probably soiled himself!
I guess stokes now has some spare time to go find him in the changing room......
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I guess stokes now has some spare time to go find him in the changing room......
I'm not sure you should be looking for 17 year old lads in the changing room...
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Joe Root.. the new Ian bell?
Only scores "easy" runs or when series are dead?
I can't remember the last time he won a game for England? First captaincy game! 200 Vs South Africa?
Not quite but when we really need him he doesn’t make a match winning score
I can’t be alone thinking he is the best batsman-potentially-since Gooch or KP.
We really do need him just as a batter but don’t want to sound like a broken record
His average is going south quite quickly
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Is this team weak mentally? When you look at 80 odd for one and now it's another collapse
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Start the car.
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Is this team weak mentally? When you look at 80 odd for one and now it's another collapse
With the exception of Sibley im not sure anyone really gave anything away.
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Root is clearly hindered by the captaincy. Stats prove this non captain ave 52 vs captain ave 42. If he ditched the captaincy he may well return to his old self.
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Yes...he wouldn’t be the first player like that and won’t be the last .
He should be 4th out of the big 4 best in the world.
We don’t have many in England capable of true world class
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Woakes and Butler are hitting boundaries regularly. England's odds are looking better by the over. Pak are conceding too many runs.
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If Butler and Woakes pull this off - half of CBF members’ brains will explode. Haha
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Said to my other half I'll buy dinner tonight if they do...
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If Butler and Woakes pull this off - half of CBF members’ brains will explode. Haha
You may be right!! It’s all on these two thou they must stay in. One wicket and England are vulnerable against this bowling
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i think there will be questioned asked if england manage to throw this away now
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I'm having a heart attack
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My (No Swearing Please) is now clenched
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Shame Buttler couldn’t see it home but this was undoubtedly the best innings of his Test career.
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Batted Jos!
Broad promoted!
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So because Buttler made runs is all forgiven?
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So because Buttler made runs is all forgiven?
Clearly not but Ed Smith will be enjoying his beer tonight
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A great innings from Butler no doubt but Woakes is batting like Viv. Helluva knock CW
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Sir Christopher Roger Woakes marvellous innings.
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Well played Pakistan. Congratulation to England.
Nice close contest. Well batted Woakes and Buttler.
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#WoakesOut
I still dont think we deserved to win, but JFC what a game
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Pakistan lost that game rather than England winning it.
I honestly thought they had enough runs on the board, but in hindsight they should have batted England out of the game. There was a whole extra day available so time wasn't an issue
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Brilliant test match, just a shame that there wasn't a crowd in to watch it.
It did seem to me that England had picked one too many seamers and one too few batsman but then Woakes looks more like a test match batsman than Burns Denly Crawley et so.
Huge innings from Butler under significant pressure.
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That’s why they persist with Buttler.
Yes his keeping was poor no doubt, but He changed the momentum of the innings by attacking the Pakistan bowlers
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Never get too high or too low.
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So because Buttler made runs is all forgiven?
No, still think foakes is a better option but if Jos wins us games then that's better than him failing
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No, still think foakes is a better option but if Jos wins us games then that's better than him failing
Totally agree but still feel he should be dropped from keeping. If the selectors feel he warrants a batting spot on his own merit that’s fine. I know after a match winning knock it seems harsh but his keeping is just not that great in comparison to the other guy and overall his test avg I just don’t feel warrants selection.
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Totally agree but still feel he should be dropped from keeping. If the selectors feel he warrants a batting spot on his own merit that’s fine. I know after a match winning knock it seems harsh but his keeping is just not that great in comparison to the other guy and overall his test avg I just don’t feel warrants selection.
unless you drop Bess i dont see how you can fit both foakes and butler into a side. And I dont think you can drop Bess unless Stokes is fit enough to bowl a chunk of over
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unless you drop Bess i dont see how you can fit both foakes and butler into a side. And I dont think you can drop Bess unless Stokes is fit enough to bowl a chunk of over
Agree so you drop Butler
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Re:Butler...I wonder if we have any keepers on here that are either very good,or play at a decent level.
The reason I mention is to gauge how bad Butler was in the game, his batting was excellent, as was Woakes. To me they looked like 3 or 4 chances that were not that difficult.
I have kept a few times on Sunday's and a handful of league games, once in the Sussex league when the regular keeper turned up drunk. I conceded no byes and got a headline in the Littlehampton gazette 'stand in keeper plays a blinder'
Quite good that...but it was all right arm over and a spinner who landed it on a sixpence-nothing leg side.
In other words Nothing anyone else who has fielded in the slips could not do.
So I'm not qualified...someone on here will be thou I reckon. :)
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Butler's batting was heading for excellent until one of the the most brainless dismissals I've seen
His keeping was pretty awful. I'd have expected a good club keeper to take at least one of the Masood chances.
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In response to the above regarding Butler. I am by know means an expert but keep at a decent level and coach keeping a fair bit.
I don't think he should continue with the gloves. The side needs a proper glove man - sidenote I do see a reversal going forward where specialists come back to the fore as opposed to the obsession with all rounders.
Its not just the chances missed whilst keeping but technically he was poor. His alignment (basically head position) is in part to blame for his misses as well less than impressive footwork. Being hyper critical he also doesn't catch the ball in the 'correct' hand when standing up very often, left hand to a right hander and vice versa allowing knicks like the one off bess to nestle in the other glove with very little work. A lot the time catches up to the stumps are considered luck but I disagree the one off bess was regulation. Even when he took catches it was by no means pretty.
To be fair to Butler the game is considered 80% mental and to come out after a frankly awful keeping performance and bat like he did is remarkable. However as he said in his post match interview he only just made up for his mistakes.
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In response to the above regarding Butler. I am by know means an expert but keep at a decent level and coach keeping a fair bit.
I don't think he should continue with the gloves. The side needs a proper glove man - sidenote I do see a reversal going forward where specialists come back to the fore as opposed to the obsession with all rounders.
Its not just the chances missed whilst keeping but technically he was poor. His alignment (basically head position) is in part to blame for his misses as well less than impressive footwork. Being hyper critical he also doesn't catch the ball in the 'correct' hand when standing up very often, left hand to a right hander and vice versa allowing knicks like the one off bess to nestle in the other glove with very little work. A lot the time catches up to the stumps are considered luck but I disagree the one off bess was regulation. Even when he took catches it was by no means pretty.
To be fair to Butler the game is considered 80% mental and to come out after a frankly awful keeping performance and bat like he did is remarkable. However as he said in his post match interview he only just made up for his mistakes.
What’s your take on Rizwans keeping ?
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For me as a keeper it’s pretty embarrassing that not even our third best gloveman has the gloves.
Technically speaking, buttler doesn’t use his hips to allow access to the ball when it turns and bounces, that’s why he got pinned in the shoulder and missed the other chance.the drop off Yasir was more to do with his head being in the previous 2.
Keeping standing back is easy, keeping standing up to a spinner is hard, keeping standing up to a seamer is the hardest job in cricket bar none.
I feel for jos in some ways because he has been totally outclassed by Rizwan who just shows what a proper keeper can do.
However, his batting has, in some ways, made up for it.
I really Hope England look at him now as a batter and not a keeper
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What’s your take on Rizwans keeping ?
Rizwan was exceptional, the main difference between Rizwan and buttler is the use of the hips, buttler doesn’t use his, Rizwan does, and Rizwan has much better access to the ball and kept much better
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Well I didn't see that coming! Brilliant stuff.
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On a side note, what bat was Chris Woakes using :D
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I spent this morning literally teasing a dealer about how he would get rid of his Woakes IPL Player Editions... Oops :D :D :D
I'm claiming that 84*!
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Re:Butler...I wonder if we have any keepers on here that are either very good,or play at a decent level.
The reason I mention is to gauge how bad Butler was in the game, his batting was excellent, as was Woakes. To me they looked like 3 or 4 chances that were not that difficult.
I have kept a few times on Sunday's and a handful of league games, once in the Sussex league when the regular keeper turned up drunk. I conceded no byes and got a headline in the Littlehampton gazette 'stand in keeper plays a blinder'
Quite good that...but it was all right arm over and a spinner who landed it on a sixpence-nothing leg side.
In other words Nothing anyone else who has fielded in the slips could not do.
So I'm not qualified...someone on here will be thou I reckon. :)
I keep at a high standard (not trying to blow my own trumpet), but overall his keeping was quite poor, I think Foakes takes the half chances that we’re missed by jos, but he’s managed to get us over the line and he’s definitely secured his place for the rest of the series.
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Rizwan was exceptional, the main difference between Rizwan and buttler is the use of the hips, buttler doesn’t use his, Rizwan does, and Rizwan has much better access to the ball and kept much better
Totally agree!! having shared the same dressing room and after numerous one-to-one sessions with Phil mustard, his main focus was always on hips, that’s the difference between an exception performance from Rizwan and a below average performance from butler
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What an enjoyable test match
Kudos to Buttler for being honest and not spouting PR clap trap.
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Butler's batting was heading for excellent until one of the the most brainless dismissals I've seen
His keeping was pretty awful. I'd have expected a good club keeper to take at least one of the Masood chances.
Bairstows Test career is over. Accept it and move on
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Stokes missing the rest of the series for personal reasons
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I'm sure all fans wish him well. It's big boots to fill for the next test it's clear how difficult it is to just balance the team when he's a non bowler let alone as a batter too.
We well have to get a batsman in now you would think.
I wonder if England would consider now a specialist keeper and as @LEACHY48 mentioned Butler as a batter, with Crawley back
I know some on here think Archer is the real deal but he's out for me to make room.
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Wood for archer, Crawley for stokes root to 4
Woakes form improving helps massively
Won't want too many changes maybe Curran for Anderson maybe?
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That does make sense. Anderson has not been at his best so far and Curran is a very good young player.
A different angle bowling and the batting would be strengthened.
I think Denly played a few more games as he went in 3, Root doesn’t like it and to be honest is not batting well.
Maybe back to 4 would give him a bit of a lift,even thou he got a double hundred against Pakistan I’m sure batting 3
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Some suggestions that Robinson will debut in place off Anderson, they don't want to risk Anderson in a third consecutive match
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I am guessing it will be Crawley for Stokes plus whatever rotation is decided upon amongst the seamers.
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Be good to see Robinson, could go crazy and bring foakes in for stokes!
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Surely people can be serious about Buttler and Foakes on the same side. Neither of them are good enough to be picked for their batting alone.
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Foakes averages 41.5 in tests and 38 FC.
Butler averages 31 in tests and 32 in fc
Stokes averages 38 in tests, 36 in Fc
Crawley averages 26 in tests and 30.5 FC
Not sure that idea is terrible!
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England had the luxury for some time of having both Stokes and Ali in the side which meant that the side never looked short on batting or bowling. When Bairstow was batting well we also had a keeper who could make it into the side as a batsman. With neither Stokes nor Ali we are always going to look deficient and our keeper be it Butler or Foakes isn't good enough to bat in the top 6.
Crawley in for one of Anderson or Archer looks the obvious pick but it depends on the pitch.
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Foakes averages 41.5 in tests and 38 FC.
Butler averages 31 in tests and 32 in fc
Stokes averages 38 in tests, 36 in Fc
Crawley averages 26 in tests and 30.5 FC
Not sure that idea is terrible!
Crawley has hardly played any games so we’ll ignore him. And I’d like to see what stokes averages over the last 2/3 seasons. We can get away with one of them as a keeper/batsman with their various strengths but there’s a long line of other guys due a chance as a pure batter.
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Foakes averages 41.5 in tests and 38 FC.
Butler averages 31 in tests and 32 in fc
Stokes averages 38 in tests, 36 in Fc
Crawley averages 26 in tests and 30.5 FC
Not sure that idea is terrible!
Foakes has played 5 tests in which he averaged 69 against the spinners in Sri Lanka and 13 against the seamers in the West Indies. He followed that by averaging 26 in FC last summer. No way can an international side accommodate Butler and Foakes in the top 6 when we are playing against a high quality seam attack
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England definitely have some thinking to do now with Stokes missing.
I think Crawley will just come straight in and then they will rotate the bowlers as they feel best. Surely Anderson will rest as this will be his 3rd in a row and Wood still hasn't played since the 1st test against the Windies! Curran must also be an option as it would lengthen the batting after Stokes departure.
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Crawley has hardly played any games so we’ll ignore him. And I’d like to see what stokes averages over the last 2/3 seasons. We can get away with one of them as a keeper/batsman with their various strengths but there’s a long line of other guys due a chance as a pure batter.
Stokes played his first 20 games essentially as a bowler who could bat a bit and averaged 27. Since 2016, he has bowled less but moved up the order and averages 42. Given the current state of our batting, Stokes leaves a huge void simply as a batsman
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England definitely have some thinking to do now with Stokes missing.
I think Crawley will just come straight in and then they will rotate the bowlers as they feel best. Surely Anderson will rest as this will be his 3rd in a row and Wood still hasn't played since the 1st test against the Windies! Curran must also be an option as it would lengthen the batting after Stokes departure.
Makes it difficult without Stokes. Anderson think you have called that right and to be honest he has not bowled as well as he can.Think he has been working on some technical stuff so maybe it's not coming out as he wants.
I would like to see Curran in instead of Archer and Crawley back,the other seamer Wood or Robinson.
Southampton last time round had Wood and Archer in on the basis the fastest two would do well,it proved anything but and the wickets went to medium pace with a bit of movement(Holder)
I think England will want Curran to cover a batting spot too. Stokes leaves a big gap.
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Surely a no brainer Crawley for Stokes. Wouldnt mind seeing Curran and Wood in for Archer and Anderson. Im a big fan of Archers talents but Im not sure the lad has much of a brain. Admitting on tv that you weren't putting in full effort is very simple. With Broad to have a rest in the last one. Decent stock of seamers available at the moment!
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Crawley and Curran in.....
Anderson rested, Stokes injured. I think Curran helps with the balance.
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Rumours of an Anderson presser today, what do we reckon.
Announcing he’s going after this series in the hope he gets to play both tests and get past 600?
Been told by management that he’s done?
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Age catches up with everyone he has been amazing to comeback after injury.
Maybe with winter tours planned for the sub continent the 2021 home series looks far away.
It will be a sad day when he does retire that’s for sure
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If Anderson does retire it'll be a big loss in terms of experience but also a big opportunity for the likes of Robinson. Holder and Abbas have shown how valuable line and length bowling can be, hope that doesn't get forgotten in the rush to fill the side with 90mph pace merchants.
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Cant imagine what Ben Foakes must be going through. I think most of the nation was hoping for Buttler to fail so that he is replaced by Foakes but with that innings Buttler has ensured that he will hold onto the spot for now. Although, surely a wonderful batting performance cannot substitute for the main role, wicketkeeping. If Buttler had caught/stumped Shan in the first innings, things would be a lot different.
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I'm not convinced that Foakes wouldn't also score runs batting at 7. Stokes being out complicates things as Buttler has done well at 6 and Stokes' replacement will likely be a pure batsman. Think it's likely that Buttler stays, England play 5 bowlers with Woakes at 7 and Crawley back at 3.
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Another excuse for the selectors not playing Foakes is that he's not played any FC cricket in 11 months...
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I think most of the nation was hoping for Buttler to fail so that he is replaced by Foakes but with that innings Buttler has ensured that he will hold onto the spot for now. Although, surely a wonderful batting performance cannot substitute for the main role, wicketkeeping. If Buttler had caught/stumped Shan in the first innings, things would be a lot different.
What sort of person hopes that someone fails like that. I know I certainly wouldn't stoop low enough to hope that someone has a crap enough game so I can get my way and say ha, I told you so!
All these remarks being thrown around about Jos are ridiculous. He's had a decent run of games and not been at his best granted, and he'll be the first person to admit that. Is he a better wicketkeeper than Ben Foakes, almost certainly not. But he's obviously got a huge ticker, is a class batsman who knows how to time a chase and see a game off.
Ben Stokes dropped a couple of fairly straightforward catches in the slips and scored bugger all with the bat - don't see anyone saying that could have cost England the same way they're hammering Jos.
All these people thinking that Ben Foakes is THE golden ticket to solve all of England's keeping/middle order batting issues are having a laugh. What if he does get a run in the side and performs poorly, then what.
To go out and play that innings knowing full well your dad has some health issues and to fully front up with honesty to the media saying I haven't been good enough and know I need to get better to stay in the side. I take my hat off to the guy, rather than hoping he'll fail.
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What sort of person hopes that someone fails like that. I know I certainly wouldn't stoop low enough to hope that someone has a crap enough game so I can get my way and say ha, I told you so!
All these remarks being thrown around about Jos are ridiculous. He's had a decent run of games and not been at his best granted, and he'll be the first person to admit that. Is he a better wicketkeeper than Ben Foakes, almost certainly not. But he's obviously got a huge ticker, is a class batsman who knows how to time a chase and see a game off.
Ben Stokes dropped a couple of fairly straightforward catches in the slips and scored bugger all with the bat - don't see anyone saying that could have cost England the same way they're hammering Jos.
All these people thinking that Ben Foakes is THE golden ticket to solve all of England's keeping/middle order batting issues are having a laugh. What if he does get a run in the side and performs poorly, then what.
To go out and play that innings knowing full well your dad has some health issues and to fully front up with honesty to the media saying I haven't been good enough and know I need to get better to stay in the side. I take my hat off to the guy, rather than hoping he'll fail.
Credit to him for having played the way he did. But the fact remains that he is not the best wicketkeeper. He has been average behind the stumps and that will hurt England bad in the future. It almost did against Pak.
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I don't think it's anything personal or that anyone has some vendetta against Buttler. By all accounts he's a lovely bloke.
That said, that innings will likely be used to justify keeping him in the side and denying Foakes a chance, so I can understand why people aren't thrilled about it.
Buttler's keeping is a liability and I don't think he is one of the best 6 red ball batsmen available to England so IMO he's a luxury player that this England team can't really afford.
Stokes being out complicates selection but long term I would much rather see the likes of Lawrence and Foakes in the England test side with Buttler replacing Morgan as white ball skipper.
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Cant imagine what Ben Foakes must be going through. I think most of the nation was hoping for Buttler to fail so that he is replaced by Foakes but with that innings Buttler has ensured that he will hold onto the spot for now. Although, surely a wonderful batting performance cannot substitute for the main role, wicketkeeping. If Buttler had caught/stumped Shan in the first innings, things would be a lot different.
I would be amazed if even a small number of English cricket supporters would have been hoping that Butler failed and England lost just so that another wicket keeper might play in the following game. Very sad for that small number if an existing run chase was ruined by a personal vendetta.
Outside of a small hard-core of enthusiasts, I am not sure that the average English cricket fan has particularly strong views on selection. County cricket after all is a minority pass time. I suspect the majority watching on Saturday would have trouble naming the current county champions let alone give an informed opinion on the wicket keeping options around the county.
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Butler has been popular with just about every England fan I've met and spoken to and remains so after the last test. A great innings with Woakes but he's honest enough to say he kept badly-perhaps that why he's so popular there is no media speak quotes.
I'm def of the opinion Foakes should play but I'd be very surprised if there are seriously any supporters wanting Jos to fail, it just doesn't work that way if you're a true fan.
England have played batsmen-keepers now for a very long time from Stewart to Prior to Bairstow and Butler. Even way before that we picked a guy called Jack Richards(I think) for an Ashes tour because he was a decent bat against pace-worked out ok if I remember correctly.
With Stokes out its highly unlikely Foakes will be recalled- we are due in the subcontinent in the winter if that goes ahead Foakes may get picked then, it's there the keeper will be standing up a lot.
I thought the errors in keeping would cost us the last match,they didn't and we managed to get over the line thanks to two great knocks.
In some ways we got away with it, maybe Pakistan took their foot off when they should of pressed it down-perhaps an inexperienced captain did not know how to change the game....or it was just one of those freak innings.
Whatever way, Butler is a hugely popular player and this 'most of the nation' wanting him to fail does not represent most of us fans. I'd be amazed if it did.Truly amazed.
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How else will Foakes get a chance? I really like Butler as a player too. Seems like a genuinely nice guy. Accepting that he wasnt good enough with the gloves is great but what good does it do? His keeping form has been bad and his batting form has been scratchy and he will continue to block a better keeper based on one good inning.
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How else will Foakes get a chance? I really like Butler as a player too. Seems like a genuinely nice guy. Accepting that he wasnt good enough with the gloves is great but what good does it do? His keeping form has been bad and his batting form has been scratchy and he will continue to block a better keeper based on one good inning.
Foakes last played away to WI after a very good tour of SL with the gloves and the bat.
I would have a guess his best chance if here are no injuries is a winter tour if we go away to the sub continent.
Butler actually played pretty well thru 2018 if you look at the matches, was a bit scratchy with the bat last year and done ok to well this summer.
My own opinion is he plays because in England we tend to create more chances so a drop or a missed stumping may not cost as much as dropping Kholi in Bombay on 50 no...
So I think England trade that against his potential with the bat. He batted superbly in the last test there's no doubt about that.
I've got nothing to base my view on why he plays other than gut feeling. In other words England look at the keeping side in this Country as secondary.
It makes a closer argument I agree with Foakes as his test record batting and FC are very good.
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Buttler is another one who seems to get a lot of leeway because of what he might be able to do. If he's going to be selected based on his batting ability then surely he should have more than one century in nearly 50 tests? The fact he's got 0 test stumpings is a pretty good indicator of his standards as a test wicketkeeper.
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I just think it is a shame that you can't get Bairstow, Foakes and Buttler in the team at the same time. In theory, they would be great, but in reality is doesn't work.
Buttler isn't strong enough as a batsman on his own but is probably the most naturally talented sportsman in the squad, Bairstow should be England's 3 or 5 but has killed his technique despite being England's best test batsman in 2016ish.
Foakes is the better gloveman but he had a bad year with the bat in County Cricket.
I'm a huge fan of Foakes and I want him to play for England again. I just wish Bairstow and Buttler were good enough to play as batsmen, because if those two stepped up the plate as they can (and should, really), England would be a far stronger batting side. Bairstow's loss as a batsman in particular is a real loss for the test side, but his technique just isn't working!
Does the rule 'even a faulty clock is right twice a day' strike true with Buttler, perhaps? I'm not sure.
The class of that 2016 South Africa tour held so much promise. Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor...
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Is anyone missing the other possible solution here? Bat Bracey at three with the gloves and keep Wonderboy at six but without them?
Just throwing it out there.
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Lot of pressure on debut for Bracey that. Replace the established keeper and take on the nightmare position in the batting order.
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Keepers can't bat in the top 3 successfully for a long enough period in test cricket.
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I'm also not sure adding another keeper to the mix is what England need right now ;)
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Keepers can't bat in the top 3 successfully for a long enough period in test cricket.
Kumar Sangakkarra.
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Root has just said Jimmy is 'likely to play'
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Makes one appreciate Alec Stewart even more... one of my favourite batsmen growing up
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Stewart was excellent for us and made himself into a decent keeper after a couple of years doing it.
Root has backed Anderson and Archer you would think they want to look at Robinson maybe for the last test with Jimmy rested.
Whether Anderson tours if we go is another matter I suppose.
I hope England pick Curran instead of Archer, there may be some swing around for him and we seem to do well when he plays.
It does make our batting stronger too.
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Stewart was excellent for us and made himself into a decent keeper after a couple of years doing it.
Root has backed Anderson and Archer you would think they want to look at Robinson maybe for the last test with Jimmy rested.
Whether Anderson tours if we go is another matter I suppose.
I hope England pick Curran instead of Archer, there may be some swing around for him and we seem to do well when he plays.
It does make our batting stronger too.
BCCI has supposedly signed a multiple year agreement with the venues in the Middle East and they say we will play the 5 tests there instead
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Makes one appreciate Alec Stewart even more... one of my favourite batsmen growing up
Prior is the one for me who I look back on and appreciate how difficult it has been to find a replacement. Stewart averaged 34 with the bat as a keeper which is good, but Prior along with Les Ames are the only two who managed returns of over 40 whilst keeping wicket.
Perhaps relevant to the current debate is that both Stewart and Prior were both functional keepers not outstanding ones.
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Kumar Sangakkarra.
I think Sangakara had given up keeping by the time he started batting at 3.
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Prior is the one for me who I look back on and appreciate how difficult it has been to find a replacement. Stewart averaged 34 with the bat as a keeper which is good, but Prior along with Les Ames are the only two who managed returns of over 40 whilst keeping wicket.
Perhaps relevant to the current debate is that both Stewart and Prior were both functional keepers not outstanding ones.
They were def functional rather than natural. You can see how far back we have to go for England to play the best keeper if you exclude Foakes in SL or WI.
Prior was an excellent lower order bat, I don't think myself having seen both he was close to Stewart keeping wise, but better than Bairstow or Butler.
It's subjective I suppose but both made themselves into 'good' keepers. Prior has hampered for his last year with a nasty injury he never recovered from.
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Kumar Sangakkarra.
The only one to score 2000 runs whilst batting in top 3 and keeping. Only 3 others have managed 1000 runs and none of those averaged 40.
Kumar averaged 68 batting in the top 3 when he didn't keep compared to 43 when he did. If Bracey is anywhere close to being as good then he shouldn't be burdened with the gloves.
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Well the forecast is appalling over the next five days...anyone in Southampton able to confirm?
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Not great but by no means appalling going by this, so fingers crossed! -
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcp185f25#?date=2020-08-13 (https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcp185f25#?date=2020-08-13)
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Stokes and Jofra out, Crawley and Curran in.
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Fawad Alam back for Pakistan after many years
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When was the last time England won the toss?! Didn't win any of the Ireland games, not sure we won any of the Windies tests either
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If there’s weather about it may not be so bad to bowl on the first morning
Pleased Curran is in looks a good balanced side
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Remember when our slip cordon was done with military precision?
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And another one. Jesus Christ what on Earth is wrong
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These are the sort of conditions where it is incredibly draining for the bowlers but chances will be created. Take them and the moment will lift the bowlers, squander them and it will become a long day out there.
This doesn't strike me as a team with a batting line up with many natural athletes and good fielders in it which really emphasises the loss of Stokes.
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Not sure why they are in a Biosecure Bubble. This England side can't catch anything.
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Not sure why they are in a Biosecure Bubble. This England side can't catch anything.
Well done...
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Inventive
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When was the last time England won the toss?! Didn't win any of the Ireland games, not sure we won any of the Windies tests either
Stokes won the first one didn’t he and chose to bowl?
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Stokes won the first one didn’t he and chose to bowl?
Yes, I think so far this summer the side losing the toss has gone on to win every game
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Oh yeah, still one out of eight is pretty unlucky but like you say the result matters most
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Dunno how the ump didn't give Fawad out straight away
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Dunno how the ump didn't give Fawad out straight away
Probably thought it had pitched outside leg, considering nearly half of the ball did then it's not surprising that he would think that.
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Dunno how the ump didn't give Fawad out straight away
If your hinting the umps could of given him on that technique I’m with you
Kim Barnett,Chanderpaul...uummmm George Bailey,Peter Wiley...all start facing square leg.
It may work,did for Shiv, but it don’t half look ugly :)
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Just looked plumb in real time to me, but hey, what do I know
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Indeed - I said out loud "that's just out"...
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What’s the point of still taking lunch after such a long delay??
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Stuart Broad the GOAT
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This Pakistani lower order must be one of the worst in test history? Yasir, Shaheen, Abbas and Naseem. Anyone of them could be 8-11 and there’s not much difference
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This Pakistani lower order must be one of the worst in test history? Yasir, Shaheen, Abbas and Naseem. Anyone of them could be 8-11 and there’s not much difference
Well Yasir has a test century... vs Aus... IN aus
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Well Yasir has a test century... vs Aus... IN aus
Agarkar once scored a hundred at Lords, is he better than Lara?
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This is garbage, just letting him keep the strike
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Another Buttler drop, seriously how long can selectors ignore this?
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Buttler should’ve gone for that - most keepers would’ve. Dropped short of root
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Anyone else think we'd lose this if it'd have gone the whole five days?
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Anyone else think we'd lose this if it'd have gone the whole five days?
With the ball jagging around so much , would have been very interesting
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What cricket there has been is all in good bowling conditions so hard to tell. With Pakistan’s bowling attack 200 plus looked pretty good
Dunno how they will manage rotation next game there’s been nothing much to need it.
Unless they go back to the old days and just say this is our best team to win this particular game
:)
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Sounds like Jofra will come in today, Root said they all had a chat with Silverwood and his role has been made very clear to him. We'll see what happens.
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Just so long as that role isn't coming on to bowl bouncers every time a partnership gets over 35...
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It should be : work towards being a Cummins like bowler.
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Sounds like Jofra will come in today, Root said they all had a chat with Silverwood and his role has been made very clear to him. We'll see what happens.
Sounds encouraging but why has it taken a huge coaching team this long to tell Jofra what they want him to do?
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How much coaching is done at top level is difficult to know, my guess is far more minimalist than we imagine it to be.
Root has made it clear from his own mouth what is needed from Archer now.
Personally I think Curran and Wood are mighty unlucky not to have played more in these matches even with a rotation of the bowlers.
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Coaching in terms of technique being limited I can understand but at elite level they also have a role in creating strategies for players to execute. How has nobody sat down with Jofra, Root and the coached and hashed out a plan for how best to use him?
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Looks like England have broken another opener
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Coaching in terms of technique being limited I can understand but at elite level they also have a role in creating strategies for players to execute. How has nobody sat down with Jofra, Root and the coached and hashed out a plan for how best to use him?
Totally understand where you're coming from, perhaps you are right. My view and let's to honest this forum has plenty and varied views :) is I'd be less inclined to say England has not been clear or that his role has not been explained.
Time will tell with Archer, my gut feeling is the higher you go up in levels the more important it is to have players who think for themselves.
But I don't know that as I'm at club level. The fact he deceided himself in the last test to cut his pace because the wicket was not a quick one perhaps proves your point a bit.
Clearly now he has been told to bowl quick in short spells.
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Burns is planting his front foot and getting stuck. He needs to spend some time with his coach again.
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Don’t want to give him the kiss of death but I think England have found their new number three, he just gets better with every game he plays!
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Sibley not a good player of spin.
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Impressive from Crawley
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Not quite sure why Popey tried again to play Yasir off the back foot there
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Looks like England have broken another opener
I am not sure that giving a guy who has been successful at FC level an opportunity in test cricket where his technical issues have been exposed counts as breaking a player.
Personally Burns looks to me to be a stop-gap whilst Crawley builds up experience. Burns has a technical fault that leaves him both vulnerable to being caught behind and being trapped lbw but he seems about the best option at the moment until Crawley steps up to open
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I am not sure that giving a guy who has been successful at FC level an opportunity in test cricket where his technical issues have been exposed counts as breaking a player.
Personally Burns looks to me to be a stop-gap whilst Crawley builds up experience. Burns has a technical fault that leaves him both vulnerable to being caught behind and being trapped lbw but he seems about the best option at the moment until Crawley steps up to open
I'm referring to the number that were top championship scorers (Stoneman, etc) who were in great county form and then played for England and struggled. Stoneman for one hasn't been the same since
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Can't think of many harder batting jobs than facing a new ball in England. Stoneman,Lyth,Robson,Roy all good players but there's a big jump from County to Test cricket. That's probably why so many have been tried since Cook and Strauss and were found not quite good enough.
If you play enough tests the bowlers work you out and find weaknesses whether they be metal or technical. It's very tough to score consistently over a decent period of time.
Denly maybe the latest batter to be good but short of big scores in the top order.
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I'm referring to the number that were top championship scorers (Stoneman, etc) who were in great county form and then played for England and struggled. Stoneman for one hasn't been the same since
The only player i can think of in recent times who was genuinely broken by the experience of international cricket is Simon Kerrigan. Very happy to see that he has managed to make his way back into the first class game
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The only player i can think of in recent times who was genuinely broken by the experience of international cricket is Simon Kerrigan. Very happy to see that he has managed to make his way back into the first class game
Yes it's surprising and good he has another chance, a good bit of news
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Crazy to think Crawley’s hundred is the first by an English number 3 since Bairstow made merry against Sri Lanka in 2018. The first at home since 2016 when Root got 254 against this same opponent.
Jos getting bored of this singles and doubles pounds Yasir for 16 in an over
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Not quite sure why Popey tried again to play Yasir off the back foot there
TBF its kinda classic spin bowling tactics. If they try to get forward, topspin, dip, turn and bounce so they can't get to it; if they try to go back, skid it through a bit straighter and quicker.
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Can't think of many harder batting jobs than facing a new ball in England. Stoneman,Lyth,Robson,Roy all good players but there's a big jump from County to Test cricket. That's probably why so many have been tried since Cook and Strauss and were found not quite good enough.
If you play enough tests the bowlers work you out and find weaknesses whether they be metal or technical. It's very tough to score consistently over a decent period of time.
Denly maybe the latest batter to be good but short of big scores in the top order.
Roy ??? In red ball ??
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Roy had 5 test matches, with the others all as opener if I remember right. I'm not sure how many we have tried since Strauss retired-there's probably a few more to mention.
Granted not the best idea from the selectors but the point is many have been tried and very few make the grade to play 50 matches or so.
It's tough at the top and the amount of players we have tried just seems to back that up.
I (was) :) an opener myself so have a lot of time for those picked for England, middle order is where in recent times you are more likely to score consistently-in this Country anyway
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I am not sure that giving a guy who has been successful at FC level an opportunity in test cricket where his technical issues have been exposed counts as breaking a player.
Personally Burns looks to me to be a stop-gap whilst Crawley builds up experience. Burns has a technical fault that leaves him both vulnerable to being caught behind and being trapped lbw but he seems about the best option at the moment until Crawley steps up to open
Burns has had success though 2 hundreds and 8 fifties from 20 tests which is a score every other game...
He does look a bit out of sync ATM
He was also our second highest run scorer Vs west indies
He's had a bad series Vs Pakistan but let's not write him off yet!
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A 200 run partnership? Pinch me
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Whilst Burns looks awful right at the moment, I don't think we should be casting him aside immediately - his knock in the last test was in no-win circumstances for a start. But really the bigger issue is, we know how hard being an England opener is with the Dukes ball and seaming conditions at home then the culture shock when we play away - a lot of people are not old enough to realise that the golden period when we had Trescothick, Vaughan, Strauss and Cook was a massive outlier in the period since 1970.
Since Lord Brockett retired, we've tried (aside from those who did make it in the middle order) Robson, Lyth, Stoneman, Carberry, Compton, Hales, Duckett, Hameed, Roy, Jennings and probably some I've forgotten. Only Jennings has been given a second dig, which is odd. But really, who amongst that number looked like they might be of the required class? At best three - Carberry (but his age counted against him) and Lyth (who probably is test class but only as a number five) were hamstrung by playing Australia and Hameed by insisting on his father as a coach.
So Burns...may not average what we might like. May have dubious facial hair. But he has shown gumption, made test hundreds (plural) and seems a decent, level headed sort.
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Burns is out of rhythm, and that’s bad when you’ve got so many moving parts. He’ll find it again, but whether he’s still in the England team at that point might be another matter.
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The problem is when stokes can’t bowl the balance of the side shifts and Crawley has been the fall guy which after today I can’t see happening so looks like it maybe another change at the top of the order
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I have to say, this was a good day! I'm delighted to be proved wrong by Jos, he batted brilliantly today, and looked a test batsman.
I'm also delighted for Crawley, first to be dropped behind Dom and Rory, and then responds with a 'Big Daddy' hundred - putting pressure on the other 2, and showing how it should be done.
Hurrah for healthy competition!!!!
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Great day! This England side is starting to come together :D
Buttler is in form too. Great summer so far!
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Those pointing out Burns getting turned round, and Sibley getting caught glancing off his hip(3 times out I think) are of course right.And I'm not going to say technique at any level is not important cos I'm a net badger too :) but.....
There's players who can learn and adapt and I don't think it's so important regarding technique, there's been a few players with a lot of moving parts, Cook was one, who have done well and adapted to better bowling.
They both have tests hundreds and Sibley looks to have an impressive concentration level.
I also think the team is coming together and we should work with what we have and put technique to the side now and again.
TV of course like to analyze non stop and that will never change with so many 'experts' employed.
Burns said on telly he will be judged on runs so he knows however his batting looks it's up to him to find a way to score.
Just my opinion but I think he has a strong mind and will improve the more games he plays.
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That knock from Crawley was pretty special to watch, hits the ball very cleanly and bloody hard. Looking forward to even more day 2
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Burns seems to be struggling a bit, but he’s batting in the hardest spot, in arguably the hardest country to do so in, so he’s due some slack. It’s also definitely easier to have a bad run (See Pope) and be forgive for it if you looks a bit more conventional.
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I'm not concerned about Burns at all. He scored 147 runs across two innings just two test matches ago.
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England's 1-6 for the first time in years looks both competent and comfortable, and most importantly they have all contributed in games instead of Root or Stokes having to dig us out
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Who drops out when Stokes is back though?
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Who drops out when Stokes is back though?
7 consecutive Tests in Asia - so most likely Anderson won’t feature.
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Brilliant 100 for Buttler first as W/K. Here’s to many more
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Very good in fairness. That 'wicket' was awful though, given out on appeal and nothing else
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Have never seen Crawley before this series - how does he have such a poor first class average??
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Should Azhar Ali try part time bowlers for couple of overs and see if the batsmen get a bit eager? I thought Shan Massod and Azhar have turned their arm over before?
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Crawley is such a positive player. An innings for the ages, really!
If someone had told me before the series that Crawley would score 267 and Buttler 140+ in the same innings, I wouldn't have believed them!
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Have never seen Crawley before this series - how does he have such a poor first class average??
He started first class cricket at a very early age and think that may be a little contributor and also Canterbury isn’t the easiest deck to bat on compared to some.
Seems to have come on leaps and bounds in the last 18 months
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Think he's one of those picked on potential - like Trescothick, Vaughan and others who didn't have great records in the county game
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I love Stuart so much
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Ohhhhhh Jimmy Jimmy
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God
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Azam finding out Test cricket is a whole lot more difficult when you’re not padding your stats up against terrible sides like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
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Azam finding out Test cricket is a whole lot more difficult when you’re not padding your stats up against terrible sides like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
Jeez will you give it a rest.
He's a quality player right up with the best in the world over the past few years, and he's facing a top quality attack in tricky conditions.
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Jeez will you give it a rest.
He's a quality player right up with the best in the world over the past few years, and he's facing a top quality attack in tricky conditions.
‘Right up with the best in the world’
Sure he is. Averages 35 outside Asia with a solitary century. In your delusional state that might a top player but in the real world it’s not. He’s a flat track bully.
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First, there was Pope; then, came Sibley. And, now there is Crawley. What's England doing to find this talent!?!!
Long before they won the CWC 2019, I was saying the same thing about England ODI side: talent galore! Now, England is doing the same thing with the Test team.
Whatever is their team building strategy, it is working like gangbusters!
Somebody steal their playbook.
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Crawley is the exception but both Pope and Sibley are products of the county championship and their experience there. Crawley has been learning on the job as a top order test batsman but he really does seem to be getting better all the time. Definitely one to be excited about.
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Azam finding out Test cricket is a whole lot more difficult when you’re not padding your stats up against terrible sides like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
What’s your next username going to be? You’ve gone through quite a few now
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Was great to see some excellent sportsmanship today with each of the Pakistan team running up to congratulate Crawley after his dismissal, and with Younis Khan giving him a standing ovation.
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600 is on today then
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Forum fave Hameed is on 65*.
Signs of hope!
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Forum fave Hameed is on 65*.
Signs of hope!
Even if he doesn't make it back to the England side, great to see him enjoying his cricket again.
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Jofra bowling some real gas, you love to see it
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Jofra bowling some real gas, you love to see it
Looks like he's bowling shorter spells and not being run into the ground, have they finally worked out how they want to use him?
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Even if he doesn't make it back to the England side, great to see him enjoying his cricket again.
Totally agree,I think he will play for England again and a change was needed.
Coaching is hard to pinpoint with many players but I'm sure it's Moores at Notts and it may be what Hameed needs
I know Moores didn't work out at top level but from what I have read he is highly thought of.
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Wow some catch by Butler down the leg side
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They seem intent on winding up Anderson
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Even Broad now getting involved, that was car crash cricket
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absolutely village! I love it!
Wouldn't want to be anywhere near Jimmy right now
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You wonder what it’s like in the dressing room after, do they have a laugh about it or stay silent...
I don’t think ‘ Unlucky Jimmy with those 3‘ would be appropriate
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What happens now.. does Azhar have to open the battery Ng as he hasn't faced a ball? I would assume Abid can swap again
I remember in st Lucia stokes was out and broad (I think) was already out in the middle but hadn't faced a ball, they realised it was a no ball and they swapped back
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Pretty sure Azhar has to open now he’s crossed the line
But there’s loads of rules in the game that rarely come up :)
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Pretty sure Azhar has to open now he’s crossed the line
But there’s loads of rules in the game that rarely come up :)
I thought that but seeing the stokes thing in the Carribbean has made me wonder, I believe the rule is the batsman before you has to face a ball until your called back... No idea about opening the batting though
Chances are Azhar will want to open and bat all day again!
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I thought that but seeing the stokes thing in the Carribbean has made me wonder, I believe the rule is the batsman before you has to face a ball until your called back... No idea about opening the batting though
Chances are Azhar will want to open and bat all day again!
For openers it's when the umpire says 'play' so as that hasn't happened yet Azhar doesn't have to open tomorrow.
All other batting positions it's when you enter the field of play.
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There has been a lot of scrutiny over Butler's keeping which was well below standard in one test, but the standard of catching in the cordon has been awful all summer. One can't question the time and effort that the modern player puts into fielding practice when part of an international squad. From an England perspective, we can only hope that with a lot of new batsmen at the start of their international careers, it is simply a case of taking time to improve the standard of catching from what you can get away with in the County Championship to where it needs to be in the Test arena
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Law 25.2 states that the innings of the opening batsmen only start at the call of Play, which didn't happen tonight. For other batsmen, it's when they enter the field of play.
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There has been a lot of scrutiny over Butler's keeping which was well below standard in one test, but the standard of catching in the cordon has been awful all summer. One can't question the time and effort that the modern player puts into fielding practice when part of an international squad. From an England perspective, we can only hope that with a lot of new batsmen at the start of their international careers, it is simply a case of taking time to improve the standard of catching from what you can get away with in the County Championship to where it needs to be in the Test arena
You're right it hasn't been great over the series. The drops looked bad today but I think if your making a judgement late on today the light needs to be a consideration.
I'm not making excuses for us but I think what happened is we played on a bit longer when the light was dubious because the umpires had criticism of earlier bad light stoppages.
Before someone pipes up I've played in a club match where we turned the car headlines on and still played....the ball must be coming at you in a flash in the slips off test bowlers and any bad light would be made worse. It also looks like the slips are closer because the pitch is slow.
I actually think at first slip-Root- we have caught pretty well.
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You're right it hasn't been great over the series. The drops looked bad today but I think if your making a judgement late on today the light needs to be a consideration.
I'm not making excuses for us but I think what happened is we played on a bit longer when the light was dubious because the umpires had criticism of earlier bad light stoppages.
Before someone pipes up I've played in a club match where we turned the car headlines on and still played....the ball must be coming at you in a flash in the slips off test bowlers and any bad light would be made worse. It also looks like the slips are closer because the pitch is slow.
I actually think at first slip-Root- we have caught pretty well.
I agree, Root has been very solid this summer but the rest have been consistently poor across the summer. It is doubly disappointing as they have been playing in empty grounds with banks of white seating to pick up the ball against. One can appreciate that when you are playing in full grounds, the background to pick up the ball can be challenging but there are no excuses this year
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I agree, Root has been very solid this summer but the rest have been consistently poor across the summer. It is doubly disappointing as they have been playing in empty grounds with banks of white seating to pick up the ball against. One can appreciate that when you are playing in full grounds, the background to pick up the ball can be challenging but there are no excuses this year
You can count the number of great slip fieldsman around the world right now on one hand.
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I think we’re just a bit unlucky that the guys who happen to have grabbed the batting spot at the moment aren’t really particularly good fielders in general. Neither Burns, Crawley or Sibley looks particularly athletic, not that that is everything or proves anything.
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Give Sibley his due, he's looked far better in the field since he lost that weight. Few bits of seriously good fielding from him this series that he wouldn't have been pulling off if he was 12kg heavier.
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Give Sibley his due, he's looked far better in the field since he lost that weight. Few bits of seriously good fielding from him this series that he wouldn't have been pulling off if he was 12kg heavier.
Indeed but he’s still not exactly a Collingwood 😬
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Dropped one or two, wasn't helped by Crawley getting in his way. Burns has dropped, what, four?
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How many did Stokes drop in the games he has played? They are all rusty
To a degree, I was talking about fielding in general rather than just drops. None of the three really stuck me as cracking fielders. Pope on the other hand does look handy.
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To a degree, I was talking about fielding in general rather than just drops. None of the three really stuck me as cracking fielders. Pope on the other hand does look handy.
And he's just gone off holding his left shoulder
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And he's just gone off holding his left shoulder
I guess if you’re going to get injured bows not the worst time, when’s our next test?
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Awful drop from Buttler
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Awful drop from Buttler
Absolute stinker. He's taken a couple of great catches this test but some serious work needed on his keeping basics. No good finally working out how to be a test batsman if his keeping isn't upto scratch.
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Absolute stinker. He's taken a couple of great catches this test but some serious work needed on his keeping basics. No good finally working out how to be a test batsman if his keeping isn't upto scratch.
Interesting to hear - well, read - suggestions that Foakes will replace one of the openers in India to hide Buttlers errors. In fairness, there is some sense to the idea, save that I do like the balance of the current 1-6 when Stokes is available.
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Burns and Sibley haven't quite convinced against spin yet so I can see why people like the idea, Buttler is certainly a very capable player of spin.
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On a spin note if Buttler's keeping to spin through this series is anything to go by, he is going to have a hell of a ride in the subcontinent this winter.
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On a spin note ff Buttler's keeping to spin through this series is anything to go by, he is going to have a hell of ride in the subcontinent this winter.
Indeed. Foakes has to come in, because we can't give their batsmen lives.
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I suppose pretty much anything in selection is possible , I'm a big fan of Foakes keeping but with Stokes coming back how would you get all 3 of stokes,butler and Foakes in the same team?
Crawley could well open if one of the current two stayed home but that still doesn't really work.
Butler has I believe scored well in the sub continent so it's not a daft idea by any means, just can't see it in practice.
Would they want to leave out Pope and play Butler at 6 with Foakes behind.....
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Leach v Bess?
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Leach v Bess?
Vs Harmer.....
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Vs Harmer.....
The South African spinner who's played 5 test matches for SA?
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I suppose pretty much anything in selection is possible , I'm a big fan of Foakes keeping but with Stokes coming back how would you get all 3 of stokes,butler and Foakes in the same team?
Crawley could well open if one of the current two stayed home but that still doesn't really work.
Butler has I believe scored well in the sub continent so it's not a daft idea by any means, just can't see it in practice.
Would they want to leave out Pope and play Butler at 6 with Foakes behind.....
I think the only realistic way of getting all 3 in is below
Burns/Sibley/Jennings
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Foakes
Then 2x Spinners and 2x Seamers
I am not sure it looks quite right though
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Vs Harmer.....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53745718 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53745718)
Harmer will never play for England as he won't be able to qualify
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53745718 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53745718)
Harmer will never play for England as he won't be able to qualify
Ah ok, I thought he quali died this winter regardless as his kolpak was signed before Brexit
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Leach v Bess?
In the subcontinent it's surely just both of them? Been a very effective pair for Somerset.
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I imagine we'll take Bess, Leach, Crane and Rashid for a tour on the subcontinent? Leach struggles with his health.
Rashid has to be better than Crane... Surely he must come in?
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Butler is averaging 50 with the bat this summer and is currently batting at 6 where he has been successful for England in test cricket so would have to play in the next test whether as a keeper or not.
The only way to get Foakes in would be to drop one of Sibley or Burns which isn't unrealistic. Both have looked dreadful against spin this summer - Sibley in particular. It is accepted that bowling attacks have to change according to the conditions. It may be a tour when the same applies to the opening batsmen.
An attack of two spinners, two seamers, Stokes and Root looks reasonably balanced to me
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Butler is averaging 50 with the bat this summer and is currently batting at 6 where he has been successful for England in test cricket so would have to play in the next test whether as a keeper or not.
The only way to get Foakes in would be to drop one of Sibley or Burns which isn't unrealistic. Both have looked dreadful against spin this summer - Sibley in particular. It is accepted that bowling attacks have to change according to the conditions. It may be a tour when the same applies to the opening batsmen.
An attack of two spinners, two seamers, Stokes and Root looks reasonably balanced to me
Burns did ok in Sri Lanka during his debut tour
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I imagine you'd have something like:
Burns or Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes
Bess or Ali
Archer
Rashid or Wood/Broad etc
Leach
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Not that I think he has any chance of playing, but Jennings should be in that party. That being said how he makes playing spin so easy yet struggles here is beyond me.
I would also like to see Virdi make the touring party, but I guess the fear will be that he will go for a few due to his rather attacking nature...
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Burns did ok in Sri Lanka during his debut tour
He averaged 25 on on that tour against what, after the retirement of Herath was barely a FC standard attack. Burns has looked better than Sibley against spin, but neither has convinced.
If you picked the batting like the bowling is selected looking at the best men for the conditions then Crawley and Jennings would open up. As it is I think Sibley, Burns and Foakes are competing for 2 places
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He averaged 25 on on that tour against what, after the retirement of Herath was barely a FC standard attack. Burns has looked better than Sibley against spin, but neither has convinced.
If you picked the batting like the bowling is selected looking at the best men for the conditions then Crawley and Jennings would open up. As it is I think Sibley, Burns and Foakes are competing for 2 places
That the same Keaton Jennings who made Adam Lyth look like Murali today? 🤔
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That the same Keaton Jennings who made Adam Lyth look like Murali today? 🤔
The one with an average of 41 in India and 46 in Sri Lanka yes
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Don’t see why any more than two spinners would be needed in India especially as we don’t really have anyone particularly good enough. Best bet would be Wood + Archer and two finger spinners. Wrist spin gets slaughtered in India.
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That the same Keaton Jennings who made Adam Lyth look like Murali today? 🤔
The more I watch Jennings grope around like a blind man against average spin bowling, the more I think his brief successful spell was just a bizarre fluke.
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GOAT
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Sibley bowling utter filth at the moment!
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Jason Roy misses T20s against Pakistan with side injury.
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Jason Roy misses T20s against Pakistan with side injury.
Let's hope Banton can have his usual opening slot then alongside Bairstow
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Let's hope Banton can have his usual opening slot then alongside Bairstow
Or give Malan a shot?
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We already know what Malan can do, would rather see if Banton is up to it.
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We already know what Malan can do, would rather see if Banton is up to it.
Malan is 33 in a couple of days time. There is nothing to gain by playing a guy who is unlikely to be in the selection mix by the time the next world cup comes around. Time to focus on guys like Banton who are the future
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The next two T20 World Cups are within 12 months of each other, albeit the one in India is 14 months away. Malan would be gutted if he didn’t get selected considering his record is up there with anyone’s.
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I am basing this purely on entertainment/fun factor, but Banton opening would be more enjoyable for me. Ah.
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Ollie Pope out off 4 months after shoulder surgery on dislocated left shoulder. Essentially won’t miss any Tests as the tours of Sri Lanka and India are in January and February.
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Why do we start like this when a spinner is opening? Carbon copy of the World Cup, that
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Why do we start like this when a spinner is opening? Carbon copy of the World Cup, that
My theory is that a left armer threatens the likes of Bairstow, Roy, Hales, KP etc because they are so used to going hard from an open stance that the ball only reaches their arc at the last millisecond, so when they are trying to get their eyes in...
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You'd think they'd try and rectify/have a plan for it is all.
Quality acceleration this from Banton
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This makes what Stokes did through the summer quite amazing!
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29762261/ben-stokes-admits-head-pakistan-test-series-following-father-cancer-diagnosi (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29762261/ben-stokes-admits-head-pakistan-test-series-following-father-cancer-diagnosi)
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Bairstow bat is a ss poor sticker job as well
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https://ibb.co/wJ1BQ8C
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Tom Curran is just Jade Dernbach without the dreadful tattoos
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England's bowling was absolutely dire today. Mahmood has been dreadful every time I've watched him.
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Love watching Morgan bat, makes it look so easy and never seems to be out of nick in T20 cricket
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Haven’t seen the highlights yet but great for Malan
Got a bit sawn off in the tests he’s a good player
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Bairstow bat is a ss poor sticker job as well
I wonder who he got it from :D https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/englands-moeen-ali-and-englands-jonny-bairstow-chat-during-warmup-of-picture-id1228240320?s=2048x2048
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https://ibb.co/wJ1BQ8C
Butterfly bat too.
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No Roy or Stokes for the LOI Australia games (Roy is in the bubble still to 'prove his fitness'), but other than that looks pretty much full strength. Guess we'll see Banton open in the ODIs, T20s it's between him and Jos. That being said, I'd take Root other both Moeen and Denly right now, even if he's batting lower down the order
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Not sure Root makes much sense down the order in T20s but on slower pitches he's definitely a good option to have. I hope Banton is given a chance to open in both white ball formats, he looks far better with a bit of time to play himself in.
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Moeen did something good!
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Anyone think we're a batsmen light?
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Anyone think we're a batsmen light?
Possibly - there's noone like Willey, Woakes or Plunkett who feels like a danger down the order. I'd like them to swap Bainton and Buttler too.
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No more than they are tbh, Curren is as good a batter as Agar.
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Jos is good
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Jos is good
He is. But that was a brainless dismissal.
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Bairstow struggling to keep his place in this side I think
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Too many dot ball here not enough rotation
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Think Malan is a really good player and Banton has shown he has a lot of talent.
Certainly do think competition for the top 3 is heating up. Roy to come back, and Stokes. Bairstow will want to make a sizeable contribution with the games left
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Eurgh
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What does Ali even offer to this side ? Such a coward with bat in hand
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That was garbage
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What does Ali even offer to this side ? Such a coward with bat in hand
Did you see the last match?
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What does Ali even offer to this side ? Such a coward with bat in hand
Absolute tosh. Batted great last game almost saw us home ffs
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Did you see the last match?
So apart from that when was his last real contribution for England ? Does Ali really merit selection based on one good performance in god knows how long ?
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So apart from that when was his last real contribution for England ? Does Ali really merit selection based on one good performance in god knows how long ?
I’m guessing a while ago, we haven’t really played much this year.
But ok, Ali’s an empty jersey, who’s your second spinner then?
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20 or so short I think
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Eurgh
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I’m guessing a while ago, we haven’t really played much this year.
But ok, Ali’s an empty jersey, who’s your second spinner then?
I’d go with the part time option, rather have a batting all rounder that bowls a bit of spin, so I’d either give root the chance down the order or I’d go with someone like Livingston
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Oh God, what is happening
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YES!
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Well......that escalated quickly
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I’d go with the part time option, rather have a batting all rounder that bowls a bit of spin, so I’d either give root the chance down the order or I’d go with someone like Livingston
And expecting Stokes to bowl 3/4 every game?
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I’d go with the part time option, rather have a batting all rounder that bowls a bit of spin, so I’d either give root the chance down the order or I’d go with someone like Livingston
You want root to play as a finisher in limited overs so he can bowl an over or 2 of part time spin....? The truth is you cant play t20 cricket these days without a couple of good all rounders to give the captain option with the ball and to lengthen the batting lineup. Moeen (and Stokes tbh since i imagine his bowling will now be limted due to his injury concerns) plays that role very well and i dont think there is anyone on the sideline that can offer what moeen does with both bat and ball.
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Moeen would benefit from being used properly to take on spinners in the middle overs. Not sure why he's been given so little chance with the ball recently but in fairness to Morgan it did work.
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Think Billings was a little unlucky to not make the T20 side after his summer in the ODI series.
Bairstow is looking more and more out of nick each game he plays at the moment and must make a score soon otherwise he could be in trouble with the likes of Roy, Livingston, Banton and even Crawley making consistent contributions back at Kent in the Blast.
As for Ali, it’s a tough one as he was at one stage one of the first names on a team sheet I would imagine in the white ball sides but the last year or so hasn’t been great for him. Tough one as a side with Wood, Archer, Rashid & Ali on current form I would suggest is a quite a long tail compared to what we have had in the past.
Must say I like David Willy in the T20 side as a genuine all rounder with both bat and ball but makes the bowling very samey
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Can Ben Foakes be the new finisher? Saving us just now at 23-4 to chasing a low total. Ah.
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I’d say Willey makes the bowling much less samey, the issues is you can only really get 2/3 overs out of him at the start (where he’s the best we have) but coming back he’s poor. Contra that he’s a left arm option and a very handy bat. If they go with 6 bowlers then I think there’s a case for him as early wickets are so vital in T20.
Billings isn’t a bad player, but when he gets the chance he really needs to grab it with both hands. And a few half decent knocks against the Irish isn’t really enough given the depth of batting we have.
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Can Ben Foakes be the new finisher? Saving us just now at 23-4 to chasing a low total. Ah.
He's always been good at playing this kind of knock.
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But he's nowhere near the England T20 side for me.
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Jesus Christ Jofra
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This is why Willey can't get in the side
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Well when it not your day it not your day
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Well when it not your day it not your day
Haha yep. This could become an interesting chase, as Buttler is bogged down and Malan is good, but he's not going to carry everyone in terms of run rate.
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How Malan makes this looks so easy is beyond me
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Malan > Kohli
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Brilliant from Buttler
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Impressive chase.
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So apart from that when was his last real contribution for England ? Does Ali really merit selection based on one good performance in god knows how long ?
Another solid showing tonight 😉
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Good stuff from us, a well paced innings from Jos at the top and another contribution from Malan.
England are certainly going to have some headaches when Roy and Stokes are back.
I said Bairstow needs a score today he def needs one in the last game now.
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Good stuff from us, a well paced innings from Jos at the top and another contribution from Malan.
England are certainly going to have some headaches when Roy and Stokes are back.
I said Bairstow needs a score today he def needs one in the last game now.
I think he's probably safe for a while yet - three low scores on the bounce but one was a nut from Afridi and today was...unfortunate to say the least.
That said, he may not like where he is asked to bat when Roy returns! I suspect our current thinking on strongest XI would see Roy and Stokes replace Banton and one of Ali, Curran and Jordan, most likely Jordan.
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The way we've won these two games makes me more disappointed there won't be a World Cup this year, we have a barrage of riches in terms of a team that can compete and we seem to have a really good momentum right now. Not sure many teams would be able to get much out of the Powerplay with Jofra and Wood at full pelt like they were today
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The way we've won these two games makes me more disappointed there won't be a World Cup this year, we have a barrage of riches in terms of a team that can compete and we seem to have a really good momentum right now. Not sure many teams would be able to get much out of the Powerplay with Jofra and Wood at full pelt like they were today
We're probably two players/roles short of our ideal team but, yeah, its not a bad set of riches. Ideally, we'd have someone who could play Buttler's finisher role, since I doubt he will be moved from the top of the order (I wonder if Bairstow may be earmarked) because we're a little bit top three heavy at the moment. And we need a second spinner - nothing against Ali, who can do a job at seven when Stokes is fit, but we're not often going to get 4 overs from him.
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I think he's probably safe for a while yet - three low scores on the bounce but one was a nut from Afridi and today was...unfortunate to say the least.
That said, he may not like where he is asked to bat when Roy returns! I suspect our current thinking on strongest XI would see Roy and Stokes replace Banton and one of Ali, Curran and Jordan, most likely Jordan.
JB was unlucky with that dismissal no doubt about that. Buttler is missing for the last game should see Banton go back opening and he looks like he was made for T20 the way he plays.
I'm glad Malan is showing just how good he is but the competition for places is bordering on ridiculous, don't think this next game is a dead rubber by any means.
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We're probably two players/roles short of our ideal team but, yeah, its not a bad set of riches. Ideally, we'd have someone who could play Buttler's finisher role, since I doubt he will be moved from the top of the order (I wonder if Bairstow may be earmarked) because we're a little bit top three heavy at the moment. And we need a second spinner - nothing against Ali, who can do a job at seven when Stokes is fit, but we're not often going to get 4 overs from him.
If Moeen Ali had to update his bowling status on FB, I bet it would be 'Its complicated'. Not sure how much he loves it himself. To me he is an accomplished spinner who has even bowled well in Test cricket. His bowling style is ideal for the shorter version too.
KP referred to him as a part-time spinner which baffled me!
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If Moeen Ali had to update his bowling status on FB, I bet it would be 'Its complicated'. Not sure how much he loves it himself. To me he is an accomplished spinner who has even bowled well in Test cricket. His bowling style is ideal for the shorter version too.
KP referred to him as a part-time spinner which baffled me!
Agreed, he does not seem to be working on his bowling, and in turn there doesn't seem to be any real confidence in using him. Not putting a down on his overall contribution but if Adil was injured I don't think we would want him as our main spinner.
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Seems to be that he’s there to bat and bowl to lefties in T20. Not sure any England player ever has had more roles/jobs.
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Seems to be that he’s there to bat and bowl to lefties in T20. Not sure any England player ever has had more roles/jobs.
Thats what i gathered from watching the Pakistan games. They had him bowl an over at Fakhar Zaman and then took him off and didn't bowl him again. I suppose if it works and you are winning games why not but i cant help but think without stokes playing as an all rounder as well Englands batting lineup is 1 batsman short since i dont really consider curran as an all rounder at the international level
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Thats what i gathered from watching the Pakistan games. They had him bowl an over at Fakhar Zaman and then took him off and didn't bowl him again. I suppose if it works and you are winning games why not but i cant help but think without stokes playing as an all rounder as well Englands batting lineup is 1 batsman short since i dont really consider curran as an all rounder at the international level
That applies to Oz too really, Curran isn’t much worse than Agar with the bat.
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That applies to Oz too really, Curran isn’t much worse than Agar with the bat.
I think both teams are a batsman short looking at their lineups, dont think agar or curran offer enough with the bat to be considered all rounders and re curran i dont particularly rate him with the ball either.
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I think both teams are a batsman short looking at their lineups, dont think agar or curran offer enough with the bat to be considered all rounders and re curran i dont particularly rate him with the ball either.
Looking at the way young Jonny is hacking at it, maybe two!
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Got the ss out
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Can we bin Billings now? He's had more than enough chances
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Can we bin Billings now? He's had more than enough chances
T20 yes, Odis no
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Just me or is this a bit crap,
Aus not bowling that well, us batting worse?
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Having said that, that's outstanding by Smith! What a catch
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His heel was on the rope, no?
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His heel was on the rope, no?
Didn't look like it to me, shadow was but there was a gap imo
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Can we bin Billings now? He's had more than enough chances
He's a good fielder but he just hasn't done it against the big teams. In ODIs I'd rather see Sam Hain given a shot and in T20 cricket there's an embarrassing number of better options in the top and middle order.
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Maybe he can work himself in as a keeper after that village brainfade from Bairstow
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This has been pretty poor.
-
Class from Dilly
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If England could catch Rashid would have won them this.
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Screw them, I'll catch them myself
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Bairstow's drop was absolutely shocking.
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This fielding has been absolutely dire
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That whole fielding performance was a shambles.
You have to wonder how much of it is also down to Morgan not being around.
Not sure when we needed wickets Archer has only bowled 3 overs as well.
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Was that Rashid's best performance in an England T20 shirt? Thought he was excellent.
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England fielders had eaten lots of pizza before their fielding. Pizza slows you down.
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That whole fielding performance was a shambles.
You have to wonder how much of it is also down to Morgan not being around.
Not sure when we needed wickets Archer has only bowled 3 overs as well.
Possibly because he went for 34 off those 3? In a tight game he was expensive and didnt take a wicket
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What a ball
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England fielders had eaten lots of pizza before their fielding. Pizza slows you down.
Has this been scientifically proven?
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Root had no clue that innings
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Root had no clue that innings
Hardly. The Aussie bowlers are giving absolutely nothing away and he was on the end of numerous top class deliveries.
Jason Roy on the other hand...
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Morgan wanted the team to be exposed to be more difficult pitches. And here we are.
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^ Morgan is a smart captain!
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What’s Billings in for, putting so much pressure on Bairstow!
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Morgan wanted the team to be exposed to be more difficult pitches. And here we are.
Rubbish losing games but it’s a definite area for them to work on, if it’s by design then I agree with what they’re doing. Worth losing a series or two to work on the one weakness this side really has.
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I reckon Jonny bairstow is using an SS bat, seems to be one of their new ‘s’ logos on the edge? Probably off Moeen...
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Are they not looking at the side line for no balls here? Starc way out...
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Have to say that even if we do lose this has been a very impressive batting display from Bairstow; really had to dig in against his natural style of play...
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Have to say that even if we do lose this has been a very impressive batting display from Bairstow; really had to dig in against his natural style of play...
Hopefully batting himself back into form.
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I'm still generally critical of Billings, but this has been great from him
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Would tend to agree on Billings. He needs to produce more innings like this to convince at the absolute top level but this is doing him no harm.
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I'm still generally critical of Billings, but this has been great from him
Been slating Billings to everyone all game, got some backtracking to do if he sees this home 🤣
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Yes good effort from Billings, we have waited a while for it thou and looks like too much to do now.
Tricky pitch by the sounds of BBC commentary, India I think for both T20 and 50 over world cups so yes as Rick mentioned we need experience outside our own wickets
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Been slating Billings to everyone all game, got some backtracking to do if he sees this home 🤣
I think you have regardless of the result. Looked very much the part against a good Aussie attack. Englands slow start is whats costing them at this stage
That said, Hazlewood was brilliant early on, seemed like he was bowling with the red Dukes. Thought we might have been able to capitalise on their lack of 5th bowler but the 4 specialists more than made up for it.
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Team AUS defended the score very well - lots of good catches and good bowling.
Malan should play. He was looking so good.
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I think you have regardless of the result. Looked very much the part against a good Aussie attack. Englands slow start is whats costing them at this stage
That said, Hazlewood was brilliant early on, seemed like he was bowling with the red Dukes. Thought we might have been able to capitalise on their lack of 5th bowler but the 4 specialists more than made up for it.
He’s had one good knock, not changed my kind yet, may yet do so in the two games left 🙂
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I have no idea what to make of Billings. He's clearly talented and probably has what it takes. In another era, be might have been one of the first names on the ODI team sheet. Unfortunately for him, the team is just so, so strong.
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Billings should get a run he will do well, especially as the team are playing on used pitches to get used to India.
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I have no idea what to make of Billings. He's clearly talented and probably has what it takes. In another era, be might have been one of the first names on the ODI team sheet. Unfortunately for him, the team is just so, so strong.
Agreed, in most of the eras since one day cricket has been played, Billings would be one of the best players in England's side but he is unfortunate to be playing at a time that coincides with us having our strongest ever side. He should certainly be part of the squad for the foreseeable future
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He Said himself on interview no matter how many runs he gets Stokes will be back and he will be dropped.
A little unusual to hear that but perhaps realistic. There is not much to no room at all in the side for a couple of the reserves.
If Butler was injured he could keep but Bairstow could do that too.
We are just a very strong one day team, Malan is no where near a place and you could argue he could do a job as well
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What’s Billings in for, putting so much pressure on Bairstow!
I think both of them played to the situation with the tight bowling by the Aussies. It was a good contest in the end and the difference was Hazlewood and Maxwell better than run a ball hitting.
At the start of the 25th over Bairstow was had 33 runs of 71 balls, while Billings had 11 of 28. When Bairstow got out he had scored 84 of 106 with Billings at 45 of 60. I could also say that England lost Morgan trying to up the tempo because Bairstow was struggling at the other end at 20 of 48.
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I think both of them played to the situation with the tight bowling by the Aussies. It was a good contest in the end and the difference was Hazlewood and Maxwell better than run a ball hitting.
At the start of the 25th over Bairstow was had 33 runs of 71 balls, while Billings had 11 of 28. When Bairstow got out he had scored 84 of 106 with Billings at 45 of 60. I could also say that England lost Morgan trying to up the tempo because Bairstow was struggling at the other end at 20 of 48.
Its a really difficult one to call - they got very close in circumstances that definitely favoured the Aussies, and amidst the pressure of being four down and having a whole host of nothing much to come. But both looked painfully out of nick at the start, and I don't know you can put all of that down to the undoubted quality of the bowling. That said, it is interesting that the two players getting stick from some are the two who scored all the runs - not Roy, who looked even worse but could not grind it out, not Buttler, who played an absolute mong of a shot.
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Batting first, shame as I'd liked another difficult chase
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Shambolic from Root, selling Roy right down the river
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Jesus this is poor. England poor again on a tough surface, Aussies fielding pretty diabolical as well.
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This is the kick up the (No Swearing Please) this team needed
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Amazing just how stuck Billings and Root managed to get. Oz bowled really well but surely players of that quality can manufacture a single from somewhere?
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Isn't Dilly great?
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Oh God Jofra what a beauty
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Is this actually happening?!
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CHRIS WOAKES MARRY ME
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Sam Curran loves the big games.
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He does and he’s good but it’s Woakes that got their 2 main scorers out who were set plus maxwell who maybe inconsistent but can def win the match for them
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Once again the Aussies fall apart under pressure without Smith. Langer talks a huge game but he's an incredible fraud, with the players at his disposal the Aussies should be far better than they have performed under him.
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What a difference having Morgan on the pitch as skipper, he is a match winner.
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This has been such a fun series! I quite enjoy these close, tight games as opposed to a 400+ thrashing.
Awesome from Woakes, Curran, Archer and co.
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Scyld Berry makes an interesting observation in the Telegraph today.
In white ball cricket Morgan gives Archer the new ball and tells him you are number 1 as a result he bowls bombs.
In the test team he bowls second or third change and is treated like a donkey.
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What a difference having Morgan on the pitch as skipper, he is a match winner.
Yep ... tend to agree this is actually the difference between both these teams currently - captaincy.
Australia have 'snatched defeat from the jaws of victory' in a chase 2x now (1st T20 as well) where they were cruising, should have won more times than not ... yet spectacularly came up short.
England seems to have a few batsmen stuck in 2 minds between the increasing divergence between T20, ODI and red ball techniques and tactics .... and Australia ... well they only have 4 batsmen (if all play) in Warner, Finch, Smith and Laboosh. Nobody else in that Aussie team would bat higher than a 6 in any other major nation (and that would probably be mercurial Maxwell).
I think the Aussie bowlers have been marginally better which has evened the batting depth discrepancy up a bit.
But Morgan's marshaling of his bowlers and field setting in those chases really caused Aus to choke in 2x chases now. All IMHO of course ;)
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Scyld Berry makes an interesting observation in the Telegraph today.
In white ball cricket Morgan gives Archer the new ball and tells him you are number 1 as a result he bowls bombs.
In the test team he bowls second or third change and is treated like a donkey.
Totally agree with this, thought it was quite telling earlier in the summer how Archer bowled very differently in the test Stokes captained.
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Is it not maybe a sign that Root and Silverwood have had Archer bowling to a poor plan? He said Morgan gives him freedom to bowl what he wants and he starts bowling top of off with bouncers sprinkled in. Sounds like another "Broad is the enforcer" situation which hopefully they'll realise is idiotic now.
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Little bit of a crap plan for Archer, little bit of England are still scared of taking the new ball of Broad and Anderson I think. They should know better with Archer as it's not like he hasn't delivered in tests when given the chance to lead the attack.
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It is a problem with the test team attack as you have Broad, Anderson, Woakes, Archer, Wood and Curran. All of whom should get the new ball for different reasons when they play.
When we go to Aus, Archer absolutely must be given the new ball. Broad will have to be first change which will p*ss him off and probably make him bowl better. (assuming Anderson is still going...)
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It is a problem with the test team attack as you have Broad, Anderson, Woakes, Archer, Wood and Curran. All of whom should get the new ball for different reasons when they play.
When we go to Aus, Archer absolutely must be given the new ball. Broad will have to be first change which will p*ss him off and probably make him bowl better. (assuming Anderson is still going...)
And assuming that Anderson is in the hat for selection in Aus presumably? Broad seems more naturally suited to Aussie wickets, Wood's pace will be a real asset, Archer has to be given the new ball. So if Stokes is fit and able to bowl and they've settled on a spinner, does Jimmy even get into the Test side for games in Aus? Realistically leaves one bowling spot and there's a few others putting their hands up for selection.
Proper dreamland but I'd love to see Ollie Robinson given a go before too long, just such a good bowler.
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Jesus Christ
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Wow
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Going to be a good game now. Let's see how Morgan does against the new ball. This is where I think he is a place high at 4. Having Stokes in now would be rather more reassuring.
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Urgh
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Again, Morgan wants us to be adaptable to the state of the game on trickier surfaces, so here we are, learning how to do it. Big fan, even if it means we lose.
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Buttler is one spot too high
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Is Zampa actually good?
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Is Zampa actually good?
You can’t get Morgan and Butler out without being good
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Buttler is one spot too high
Couldn’t agree more.
Also that must be the third time at least Roy has been caught at backward point driving first ball of a game. Seems like he has been out of form for a while now.
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May have to eat a few choice words about Billings, very good from him. Glad he was honest to admit he won't keep his place when this side is at full strength, but it's obviously hard to take for the lad...
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It looks like Bairstow has put a bit of medical tape over the SS edge stamp
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Lovely knock from Woakesy
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Brilliant to get more than 300 from where we were after 10 overs.
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Question for the group. Is Butler in the right frame of mind since he came back from personal leave before the 3rd T20. Normally, he looks very relaxed and smiling but lately he looks very subdued.
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Question for the group. Is Butler in the right frame of mind since he came back from personal leave before the 3rd T20. Normally, he looks very relaxed and smiling but lately he looks very subdued.
I’d guess he’s professional enough but couldn’t blame any of the player for being a bit worn out after this summer tbh.
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What an awful ball for Stoinis ahahahahahahaha
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JOE ROOT THE FRONTLINE BOWLER
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Morgan has developed into a very very good captain who can read bowling changes.
I think we are lucky to have him myself and glad we have
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JOE ROOT THE FRONTLINE BOWLER
Marsh played a horrible shot but the ball to Warner was an absolute peach. Big fan of England developing quality batsmen who bowl dirty spin, Dan Lawrence being the next candidate.
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Morgan has developed into a very very good captain who can read bowling changes.
I think we are lucky to have him myself and glad we have
Yeah, he’s brilliant isn’t he, not sure we’ll really see just how good he is until he’s gone.
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Yeah, he’s brilliant isn’t he, not sure we’ll really see just how good he is until he’s gone.
Hopefully he will last until the next World Cup but agree it will be some job replacing him as captain, got a super side these days and I think his positive mindset that he has always had, has worked wonders for this side and the new and emerging players seem to come in a play with freedom.
If only he could play test match cricket as well as worth his place as a captain and tactical qualities let alone his batting
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Really poor captaincy with keeping Rashid on to Maxwell
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Really poor captaincy with keeping Rashid on to Maxwell
I guess you’d call it brave if he’s got a wicket, but I think most people would have chopped him an over ago, but then see the comments above, there’s a reason I’m not England captain and it’s not just my batting!
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Rashid bowling the final over was probably one of the worst things he's ever done. Shocking.
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Rashid bowling the final over was probably one of the worst things he's ever done. Shocking.
If it comes off it's a great call, if it doesn't it's not - That's how top level sport works and Morgan is a superb captain with a great knowledge of the game. I'll take his opinion over yours.
Thought the Aussies batted very well chasing down an above par score. England did brilliantly to get to over 300 from 0-2 and Bairstow played superbly well with great support from Woakes.
Carey played well after getting a second chance, and Maxwell played the sort of innings that he should be playing more regularly. I was shocked to see he'd only scored one ODI ton before tonight, the guy's got loads of ability - he backed it tonight with a bit of nous I think.
Another great series, we've been treated to some great cricket this summer all things considering!
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A spinner who's gone at almost 9 vs a very good death bowler who's excelled with pace off the ball. Just baffled by why he turned to him. Archer's no ball and Buttler's drop off that nick also proving costly.
Genuinely gutted we lost that
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Genuinely gutted we lost that
I'm seeing it from the point that we've been very lucky to see some great cricket this year despite all the stuff that's going on in the world. Sh it happens.
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I also would have gone curran for the final over. Starc was always going to swing hard and with the extra flight and a short boundary one side he had half a chance against Rashid. Not sure he would have been able to get currans back of a length mix ups away so easily.
But being honest it was australias to lose whoever bowled at the death after that huge partnership. Could've done with a middle overs strike bowler. Used to have a fella called plunkett who won us the world cup.
I dont blame Morgan, best captain ive seen in an England shirt on and off the pitch and the messiah as far as white ball cricket goes.
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Having Stokes available again would add a bit more balance to the ODI team I reckon. Roy is also horribly out of form and he was a huge factor in the rise to number one.
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A spinner who's gone at almost 9 vs a very good death bowler who's excelled with pace off the ball. Just baffled by why he turned to him. Archer's no ball and Buttler's drop off that nick also proving costly.
Genuinely gutted we lost that
On the flip side it was also a spinner who’d tied the Aussies in knots all of both series and who’d just taken the wicket of a set batsman vs a quick who would have to come on and bowl a one over spell when potentially not fully warmed up.
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Having Stokes available again would add a bit more balance to the ODI team I reckon. Roy is also horribly out of form and he was a huge factor in the rise to number one.
I was debating this with a friend and we had a look back and I see Roy's performance more of a reflection of the problem of root and JB struggling to score.
In match 1, they were 7 off 25 balls when Roy went out to a brilliant one-hand c&b by Hazlewood. Somebody had to put the foot down. Hazlewood got lucky.
In match 2, he got run out by Root who was desperate for a single off the last ball after an over of dots. At that time, Roy had scored 21 from 22 balls. Bairstow and Root combined had scored 2 runs from 20 balls (yep!). He looked like the only top order batsmen who could play Australia that day.
In match 3, he got a dot.
I noticed his partner JB finished top of the series scoring charts - but with an avg. S/R of 81. In contrast his career ODI S/R is 103 so he was definitely off the boil even though his test innings got him the runs. I don't think you can see Roy's failure as an individual failure.
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Roy hasn't really had a successful series since the WC though if I'm remembering right? Anyone can have a few bad games and I'm not suggesting that he is the sole cause of England losing the series but he's been so good in the past that I think it would be daft to suggest that an in-form Roy isn't a big miss for England.
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He had a bad run in 2017 as well during the Champions Trophy and got dropped for that, then recalled after the off-field stuff and generally been solid until this year. Players have bad patches, he's no different and had to deal with a very good opening pair of bowlers for this series. Also consider he's barely played any cricket this summer either, 3 ODIs against Ireland, one Bob Willis game then these 3. I hope he's allowed to play for Surrey for the remaining T20 games, considering he's not going anywhere else right now...
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I'd agree with you that Roy would have benefitted from more cricket and hopefully he'll get that opportunity. Just not sure that JB and Root not scoring freely alongside him is the main reason he had a poor series.
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I was debating this with a friend and we had a look back and I see Roy's performance more of a reflection of the problem of root and JB struggling to score.
In match 1, they were 7 off 25 balls when Roy went out to a brilliant one-hand c&b by Hazlewood. Somebody had to put the foot down. Hazlewood got lucky.
In match 2, he got run out by Root who was desperate for a single off the last ball after an over of dots. At that time, Roy had scored 21 from 22 balls. Bairstow and Root combined had scored 2 runs from 20 balls (yep!). He looked like the only top order batsmen who could play Australia that day.
In match 3, he got a dot.
I noticed his partner JB finished top of the series scoring charts - but with an avg. S/R of 81. In contrast his career ODI S/R is 103 so he was definitely off the boil even though his test innings got him the runs. I don't think you can see Roy's failure as an individual failure.
In match 3 he tried to hit the first ball of the innings to the boundary. Hard to blame his partner's strike rate for that one.
However I agree that there's a difference between a string of low scores and being out of form. That's just cricket.
ECB deserve a Huge pat on the back for the way they've run this biosecure bubble. Succesfully hosting four international series without a single positive case in these times, is a massive achievement, and has shown the way forward for other nations to get some international cricket played. Job well done! :)
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I was debating this with a friend and we had a look back and I see Roy's performance more of a reflection of the problem of root and JB struggling to score.
I'd love to see how your club side is selected - blame the guys who did score runs for the one who didn't getting himself out! :)
Roy's performance was a reflection of three things - they were deliberately playing on more bowler friendly pitches, he has not played much cricket, and he does have a tendency to go hard handed at the ball. One poor series doesn't mean anything in the wider context, I'm sure he'll come good at some point soon.
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I was debating this with a friend and we had a look back and I see Roy's performance more of a reflection of the problem of root and JB struggling to score.
In match 1, they were 7 off 25 balls when Roy went out to a brilliant one-hand c&b by Hazlewood. Somebody had to put the foot down. Hazlewood got lucky.
In match 2, he got run out by Root who was desperate for a single off the last ball after an over of dots. At that time, Roy had scored 21 from 22 balls. Bairstow and Root combined had scored 2 runs from 20 balls (yep!). He looked like the only top order batsmen who could play Australia that day.
In match 3, he got a dot.
I noticed his partner JB finished top of the series scoring charts - but with an avg. S/R of 81. In contrast his career ODI S/R is 103 so he was definitely off the boil even though his test innings got him the runs. I don't think you can see Roy's failure as an individual failure.
I agree with this as my personal experience even though it's at club level. I had horrible last season and partially I blame my batting partner at other end. Even though I got out playing shots I chose. Guys at other end scored 100 but it never won us a single game cos it affected overall scoring rate.
This season that guy has moved to different club and we started winning more matches with more individual match winning performances