Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: SurreySam on January 28, 2021, 11:07:47 PM
-
So no announcement yet, but this news article might interest some should Channel 4 become successful. It'd be great for the Sport, if it was aired on a free to use platform.
https://inews.co.uk/sport/cricket/india-vs-england-tv-rights-channel-4-test-series-uk-live-coverage-bt-sport-sky-848462 (https://inews.co.uk/sport/cricket/india-vs-england-tv-rights-channel-4-test-series-uk-live-coverage-bt-sport-sky-848462)
-
It would be great but ultimately if it went to a bidding war C4 surely wont have the muscle. A shared deal would be a result though.
Its criminal that no cricket is on free tv over here. I dont like to speak too positively about Australian cricket but when you go over there you see that they grow the sport so much better than here in the UK. All Aus Tests, men and women, were on free to air tv, pretty sure most were on 2 networks. I dont think you can underestimate the difference this would make to working class children in the UK. Some of the juniors at our club have never watched a live cricket match!
-
With lockdown, the time the games are on in the UK and the support that the Indian team has from people living in the UK, C4 could get huge viewing figures.
-
It is such a big opportunity with the kids off school as well, I hope C4 do get some sort of package.
-
Fingers crossed for Channel 4 - thought their coverage was excellent last time they had the rights.
As the manager of a junior cricket team we need to get test coverage back on "free to view" - only half of my team have access to Sky or BT. They can learn so much from watching the great players and umm....do their school work with it on in the background!
-
Forget the benefits to the kids, I need something to watch while I 'work' from home.
-
I'm hoping for real change post-COVID. Something so precious to our nation's identity should never be treated like this.
-
If we can get past mark Nicholas and his 'wowsers' every time the ball his the bat as fans ,C4 if they get it could be doing themselves a great deal..
Lockdown
Home working
Loads of India fans......commercial adverts may be at a premium.
It's another thread we have already done but the absence of live cricket on TV(free to air) has been a direct impact of the amount of ameteur cricket played.
It cannot be a coincidence after 2005 participation went up and has been going down ever since.
Let's hope there is something available on terrestrial.
-
Sky and BCCI relationship soured over money. Obviously the ‘worlds richest board’ likes to get above and beyond for their tv rights.
Don’t see how C4 could possibly make a deal if sky couldn’t.
-
If we can get past mark Nicholas and his 'wowsers' every time the ball his the bat as fans ,C4 if they get it could be doing themselves a great deal..
[/quote :D]
I forgot about Mark Nicholas - perhaps he's stuck in Australia !
-
Star TV announced to be coming to Disney+ no mention of Star sports yet though
-
I could be wrong but I thought not that long ago the Indian,Australian and English cricket boards came together to take the financial cricket Pie between them and arrange more matches between themselves (obviously Ashes is every 2 years regardless).
Simply because they were the matches that made the most money. I don't ever remember us playing India away and then at home within 12 months of the tours before.
You would think TV rights would have been a part of that.....maybe it was and the BCCI or us changed their minds.
I could be wrong but that is my recollection, basically that India,England and Australian matches come first and the rest of the playing nations get the scraps
Please do correct me if that is wrong.
-
Pretty sure some of the other sides forced a reverse on the ‘big 3 model’.
But there’s nothing stopping those three playing each all the time outside the Test/ODI championships.
-
Star TV announced to be coming to Disney+ no mention of Star sports yet though
You’ll be ok to watch it then... 😂😂
-
Pretty sure some of the other sides forced a reverse on the ‘big 3 model’.
But there’s nothing stopping those three playing each all the time outside the Test/ODI championships.
Ah ok...cheers
-
The Telegraph reporting this morning that Channel 4 have won the bid ("barring an late 11th hour gazumping")!!!
Apparently this is due to BT and Sky already committing a load of money to the bidding for this years Ashes so didn't want to go to high etc....
-
This is massively good news. :)
-
Whilst I'm delighted to see this on terrestrial television, this whole thing has been an absolute farce to the supporters in the UK
-
Nothing like leaving it to the last minute! Still not confirmed this morning
-
Tough seeing channel 4 making much profit if it’s been left this late. I’d imagine they’d have ad breaks every over
-
Nothing like leaving it to the last minute! Still not confirmed this morning
Here, here! I can’t confirm C4 will be showing the cricket...
but they have asked can they use the new BCCI cricket graphics package ;)
-
Confirmed
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/02/channel-4-wins-rights-for-england-test-cricket-tour-of-india?__twitter_impression=true
-
https://twitter.com/Channel4Cricket/status/1356552360693219329?s=19
Mambo no. 5 is back!!
-
Excellent.
Hope the presenter/pundit line up is worthwhile. Leaving this to the 11th hour is never good.
-
https://twitter.com/Channel4Cricket/status/1356552360693219329?s=19
Mambo no. 5 is back!!
That twitter account isn't official but we can hope Mambo no 5 is back!
-
Excellent.
Hope the presenter/pundit line up is worthwhile. Leaving this to the 11th hour is never good.
I know what you mean but this is quite a big change to go on terrestrial so that’s the main thing
Wowsers will be back an over excited mark Nicolas but no Graeme Swann please :)
I don’t suppose our younger members would want Gower but us oldies still hold him in great affection.
He was....fabulous to watch in his day
-
Won’t be many decent commentators around. Most will be covering t10, bbl and pak series
-
Won’t be many decent commentators around. Most will be covering t10, bbl and pak series
There would a few actually. BBC does not have ball by ball coverage for this tour I’m pretty sure
-
There would a few actually. BBC does not have ball by ball coverage for this tour I’m pretty sure
TMS team doing live commentary with full video coverage on C4, we can dream...
-
Bet Shane Warne is throwing his cap into the ring, now that the AUS/SA series has been postponed.
-
I know what you mean but this is quite a big change to go on terrestrial so that’s the main thing
Wowsers will be back an over excited mark Nicolas but no Graeme Swann please :)
I don’t suppose our younger members would want Gower but us oldies still hold him in great affection.
He was....fabulous to watch in his day
Read this morning that "wowsers" is contracted to Talksport for the series
-
It’s getting better as the morning goes on! No lord Nicholas.
I actually like Warne on commentary...he’s pretty good
-
It’s getting better as the morning goes on! No lord Nicholas.
I actually like Warne on commentary...he’s pretty good
He's alright when he does technical analysis but I cannot stand it when he slips into the 'back in my day' patter that Vaughan is so bad for. Would happily listen to Ponting for hours though.
-
Great news! Both for the bank balance and the general public!
C4s coverage used to be great, Simon Hughes as the Analyst was brilliant and its something that has been copied to different levels by all networks since
-
Whilst I'm delighted to see this on terrestrial television, this whole thing has been an absolute farce to the supporters in the UK
I am not sure that there is any good faith as far as negotiating with the BCCI is concerned. I seem to recall back in 2012 Sky having to run the commentary from a studio in London and with Athers doing outside segments from a car park in India overlooking the ground after Sky were sold the rights but then were told that they would have to pay a further £.5m for access to the ground.
This doesn't seem to be a bidding war so much as no one being prepared to pay what has been asked leaving C4 to step in
-
Surely the commentary/footage will all be from whoever Star Sports had lined up.
C4 might have have a presenter and a pundit set up in a studio if they have had enough time to arrange it.
-
Apparently cook will be fronting it
-
Anyone but Swann or Vaughan
-
C4s coverage used to be great, Simon Hughes as the Analyst was brilliant and its something that has been copied to different levels by all networks since
He may have been the first but Simon Hughes is awful, especially on the C5 highlights (thankfully the BBC didn't get him in for their highlights). Atherton, Hussain, Haysman do a much better job.
-
Anyone but Swann or Vaughan
Swann's in Dubai.
-
Good that there's no racing for them to pop off to?
-
He may have been the first but Simon Hughes is awful, especially on the C5 highlights (thankfully the BBC didn't get him in for their highlights). Atherton, Hussain, Haysman do a much better job.
It was pretty groundbreaking at the time and I found it very informative.
Ive never watched him on C5, didnt even know they had cricket coverage!
-
At least it should be better than sky’s rubbish coverage from their homes.
Strauss and cook set to be named. I suspect the remaining will be of the diverse nature
-
It was pretty groundbreaking at the time and I found it very informative.
Ive never watched him on C5, didnt even know they had cricket coverage!
They did England highlights from 2006-2019, he was there for most of it I think.
At least it should be better than sky’s rubbish coverage from their homes.
Strauss and cook set to be named. I suspect the remaining will be of the diverse nature
I felt sky did a good job getting the various commentators/ analysts to be able to contribute both remotely and from the studio.
-
They did England highlights from 2006-2019, he was there for most of it I think.
.
Ive only watched on Sky, could've saved myself a few quid!
-
Just for a bit of fun on is day of good cricket news, if you only had the choice of these 3 how would you put them in order?
And there's no turning the sound down and listening to anything else.
Nicholas
Swann
Vaughan
Ummmm. I'm gonna go
Nicholas I can put up with the overexcitement
Swann
Vaughan
The last two are a mighty difficult choice there's I love myself in everything they do.
Might swap
Vaughan
Swann. That's a bit better.
-
Ive never actually heard Swanns commentary. Is he terrible?
-
Ive never actually heard Swanns commentary. Is he terrible?
T10 highlights are on Sky later I think. Swann is commentating on that at the minute.
I think for a test match he will be alright, just playing up as it’s Cricket on Crack. Same as Danny Morrison, perfectly able to commentate just puts on a show for white ball cricket.
-
The games are on live.
-
Ive never actually heard Swanns commentary. Is he terrible?
Awful. I once sat through an evening of a theatre tour he was doing with Aggers and be is every bit as insufferable in person
-
Dunno about anyone else I've been pleasantly surprised by Cook on the radio, I never thought he enjoyed being asked questions or the media in general. If he is presenting the C4 coverage good for him.
Same with Atherton, one word answers in interviews and ends up being very good in the media-I actually think he is the best of the lot at the moment.
I guess being England captain is a streasful job, once that stress is removed a job in the media seems like a good gig again.
Swann sounds like someone who would be fabulous company for 15 mins and after half an hour you want to punch him.
Which is what Gough did....alledgely. :)
-
Ah well something different. At least we get to watch some more cricket. I see that Star sports had Butcher and Knight on their English speaking team and I dont particularly rate either of them
So it seems like BT and Sky will bid it out for the Ashes. Would love to be there but its looking more and more unlikely
-
Ah well something different. At least we get to watch some more cricket. I see that Star sports had Butcher and Knight on their English speaking team and I dont particularly rate either of them
So it seems like BT and Sky will bid it out for the Ashes. Would love to be there but its looking more and more unlikely
If stories are to be believed Amazon are going to join that battle for the Ashes.
-
Expected to be confirmed on C4 later today. Sky and BT both tried to hijack the deal at the last minute Tuesday to no avail according to the Times. Separate deal for white ball but that’s expected to be C4 too. Interesting to read that ITV were interested too.
-
And they say boxing's like the wild west!
-
If stories are to be believed Amazon are going to join that battle for the Ashes.
This would be really interesting, their 6 Nations coverage was brilliant.
-
Non-exclusive deal so another broadcaster could also be showing it.
Coverage led by someone called Rishi Persad. BBC doing their social coverage so rules out Vaughan and cook (I think)
-
https://twitter.com/C4Press/status/1356965091065888769
WE PARTYING
-
Anyone else trying to work out what kind of horrible sleep cycle will let them get up at 4am for a few weeks?
-
Note to Editors
Channel 4 will take the world live feed commentary and its studio presentation team will be announced in due course.
Anyone know about the world live commentary feed? The above quote is taken from a press release.
-
Anyone know about the world live commentary feed? The above quote is taken from a press release.
Harsha Bhogle, Sunil Gavaskar, Murali Kartik, Deep Dasgupta, Laxman Sivaramakrishnan, Nick Knight, Mark Butcher
-
Perfect, thank you.
As I'll be recording it and fast forwarding the ads and interval breaks, that'll be the people I shall be listening to. Not really fussed about studio stuff.
-
Non-exclusive deal so another broadcaster could also be showing it.
Coverage led by someone called Rishi Persad. BBC doing their social coverage so rules out Vaughan and cook (I think)
Rishi is more known for presenting the horse racing. Has done just about every sport known to man, regularly presents bowls! But has presented Rugby, Football and even Cricket before. He is a cricket fan though so you’d assume he would be a bit better than just a general sports presenter.
-
Just out... possibly Crawley missing injured.
England in India: Zak Crawley injured before first Test - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55924989 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55924989)
On a separate note.... maybe the mods or original poster could change the thread title and we could just use this as the Series thread going forwards?
-
Just out... possibly Crawley missing injured.
England in India: Zak Crawley injured before first Test - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55924989 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55924989)
On a separate note.... maybe the mods or original poster could change the thread title and we could just use this as the Series thread going forwards?
Then you might as well change it to "My England team would be...'
-
Yeah Crawley possibly out, burns,stokes and Ali and Pope all available.
With butler playing just this match he's keeping, Crawley missing out may not affect us so much there are a lot of choices.
I reckon Ali is in, they wanted to play him in SL as an allrounder. Stokes has to play obviously.
If Crawley is out id love to see Root moving to three to take that tricky position, the batting order is easier to work out if he does that.
-
If Crawley is out it's simple..
Burns, Sibley, Lawrence, root, stokes, pope, buttler Bess, archer, leach, broad
Rumour has it pope will play for Lawrence so a straight swap Lawrence for Crawley if he isn't fit would make most sense
-
If Crawley is out it's simple..
Burns, Sibley, Lawrence, root, stokes, pope, buttler Bess, archer, leach, broad
Rumour has it pope will play for Lawrence so a straight swap Lawrence for Crawley if he isn't fit would make most sense
Didn't Stokes bat at 3 in Sri Lanka a couple of years ago? Would make more sense to me to bring him in at 3 and let Lawrence keep no 5 given his inexperience. Or Root 3 and Stokes 4 but then you're into the argument of whether you should weaken a strength etc..
-
Im picking Ali over Bess for this first test. This isnt a series to learn your trade in
-
Im picking Ali over Bess for this first test. This isnt a series to learn your trade in
By that same logic, is it the right series to get yourself back into nick after an extended absence?
-
Has Moeen Ali learned his trade?
-
By that same logic, is it the right series to get yourself back into nick after an extended absence?
Ali does not have much form from the last couple of years, he does have a decent record despite this and many on here think he is an automatic pick.
I absolutely can't see us not playing him, England wanted him available in Sri Lanka I'm sure if it.
-
If Crawley is missing, I’d like to see foakes come in an take the gloves for the whole series and play butler as a batter only for the first game
-
By that same logic, is it the right series to get yourself back into nick after an extended absence?
Im prepared to throw an experienced, moderately successful player back in over Bess currently yes.
If Bess bowls anything like he did against Sri Lanka he will go for 6 an over and it could set him back years. remember how Kerrigan and Crane went?
-
Has Moeen Ali learned his trade?
More so than Bess at this point undoubtedly. These Indian batsman will not make presents of their wickets like the Sri Lankans did
-
If Crawley is missing, I’d like to see foakes come in an take the gloves for the whole series and play butler as a batter only for the first game
Absolutely totally agree, Jos has in the last couple of years done pretty well for with bat only
-
Im prepared to throw an experienced, moderately successful player back in over Bess currently yes.
If Bess bowls anything like he did against Sri Lanka he will go for 6 an over and it could set him back years. remember how Kerrigan and Crane went?
Suppose that's the calculation, Moeen's experience against Bess' super preparation, fielding skills and match sharpness.
I think Bess has enough behind him now that he's not going to go the way of Kerrigan or Crane based on one bad series, assuming obviously that he has a bad series which is not necessarily going to happen.
-
I don't have many worries Bess won't cave in when the going gets tough, there's something about him and England look to pick on character these days a bit more than they used to.
He's def a work in progress and Indian batsman will be much better than SL who gave us half their wickets.
Who is the better spinner out of Bess and Ali is tough, Ali has quite a few test wickets behind him.
If the wicket they prepare looks like it's got no grass we could play both Bess and Ali with Leach.
-
Suppose that's the calculation, Moeen's experience against Bess' super preparation, fielding skills and match sharpness.
I think Bess has enough behind him now that he's not going to go the way of Kerrigan or Crane based on one bad series, assuming obviously that he has a bad series which is not necessarily going to happen.
I wouldnt be so sure of that. After watching how the Indian batsmen recently treated Nathan Lyon with disdain I really think he could be taken to the cleaners.
Id personally prefer to protect him a little bit for the future.
If Alis fit and firing in training I'd have him in.
Dont really buy your claim of Besses better preparation. If the players are fit they are available for selection. If you use that argument you'll be leaving Stokes and Archer out aswell as they've been around the squad and training for less time than Mo
-
I don't have many worries Bess won't cave in when the going gets tough, there's something about him and England look to pick on character these days a bit more than they used to.
He's def a work in progress and Indian batsman will be much better than SL who gave us half their wickets.
Who is the better spinner out of Bess and Ali is tough, Ali has quite a few test wickets behind him.
If the wicket they prepare looks like it's got no grass we could play both Bess and Ali with Leach.
Theres an article on cricinfo with an interview with the chennai groundsman. He suggests the wicket will have an 'english' green tinge to it. Could be smoke and mirrors though ...
-
I think it will be interesting the side India go with, it is not a straightforward selection for them with no Jadeja or Vihari to balance the team, amongst other issues.
-
I think it will be interesting the side India go with, it is not a straightforward selection for them with no Jadeja or Vihari to balance the team, amongst other issues.
Kuldeep yadav likely to be the 2nd spinner or will they keep Washington sundar in?
-
Definately think if Crawley isn't fit, the Foakes would be a good shout. Unlikely to happen though :(
-
Kuldeep yadav likely to be the 2nd spinner or will they keep Washington sundar in?
I think they may play 3 spinners - Ashwin, Kuldeep and either Washington or Axer Patel. Bumrah and probably Ishant comes back in.
-
I think they may play 3 spinners - Ashwin, Kuldeep and either Washington or Axer Patel. Bumrah and probably Ishant comes back in.
Could be an exciting attack then. Always good to see some wrist spin.
Bumrahs first home test, played all 18 away up till now with great success.
-
The journos reckon after England’s struggles against the SL left armer India might pick Patel.
-
It is hard to judge what England want to get out of this series. Looking purely at winning this series, Ali has to play over Bess. It obviously isn't an all out effort to win though as we have the squad chop and changing (I can't see us running the squad for the Ashes without our best players being their for the entire series). For the long term, Bess would be better for the experience.
Assuming that Crawley won't be fit and the pitch won't be a dust bowl, for the first test I would go with.
1. Sibley
2. Burns
3. Stokes
4. Root
5. Lawrence
6. Pope
7. Butler
8. Ali
9. Archer
10. Anderson
11. Leech
-
Suspect that will be more or less the team, with the possible exception of Broad in for Anderson.
-
Confirmed that Crawley to miss first 2 tests with a sprained wrist.
'Wrist injury rules Crawley out of first two India Tests'
http://www.skysports.com/share/12208149 (http://www.skysports.com/share/12208149)
-
Crawley confirmed as out for the first two tests this morning. Could be another big opportunity for Lawrence!
I'd have picked Moeen in the all-rounder's slot ahead of Curran in SL if he was available, but now Stokes is back I don't think he gets in ahead of Bess unless we're really worried about the batting.
Anderson over Broad for me if we only pick one.
-
I think it could be -
Burns
Sibley
Pope/Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Pope/Lawrence
Buttler
Bess
Leach
Archer
Broad
I don't think Root will move from 4 so that leaves Pope or Lawrence to bat at 3 and 6 in whatever order. Although maybe Stokes may do it. They have massively backed Bess so I don't see that changing. Broad plays over Anderson purely as Anderson played the last one in Sri Lanka.
-
They will ruin Pope if he bats any higher than 4, which is where the skipper should be. Suspect they may even just throw Moeen in.
-
Moeen’s got one of the best records against India - he has to play
-
Well Lawrence batted 3/4 for Essex so you’d think they would slot him in at 3 and allow pope to bat at 6 if selected
-
Moeen’s got one of the best records against India - he has to play
Averaged nearly 65 with the ball last tour..!
-
Two hundreds last tour from Moeen
-
I am struggling to see England competing on tour. Or am i been too negative?
Just feel England batting v spin will be exposed plus Indian's spinners so much better than their english counter parts?
-
I am struggling to see England competing on tour. Or am i been too negative?
Just feel England batting v spin will be exposed plus Indian's spinners so much better than their english counter parts?
I feel the same. After seeing how India played in Aus without key players it does make me think the worst. Plus our spin attack isnt as good as theirs.
Need some guys to stand up and be counted with big hundreds.
-
Although most of the batsmen play spin well in this team. Its Burns, Sibley and Crawley that have the question marks over them.
-
Although most of the batsmen play spin well in this team.
Famous last words?
-
Two hundreds last tour from Moeen
Can he bat at no.3?
-
Famous last words?
Could be but ill stand by it
-
Well Lawrence batted 3/4 for Essex so you’d think they would slot him in at 3 and allow pope to bat at 6 if selected
Can't remember him batting at 3 for a long time.
-
I think it could be -
Burns
Sibley
Pope/Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Pope/Lawrence
Buttler
Bess
Leach
Archer
Broad
This is about right. But you could have Butter at 6 and have either Ali or Foakes at 7. Lawrence to play ahead of Pope, possibly staying at 5, with Stokes at 3.
-
This is about right. But you could have Butter at 6 and have either Ali or Foakes at 7. Lawrence to play ahead of Pope, possibly staying at 5, with Stokes at 3.
I do think Ali is an option, but I suppose it comes down to what do the management think we need runs or an extra bowler.
I think by batting Stokes at 3 you severely dent the amount of overs he can bowl though, and he may be needed for some wonder spells on flat pitches to make something happen etc....
-
Two hundreds last tour from Moeen
Very true, think the realistic spot for him would be as a batting allrounder but Stokes very much has that place occupied.
-
If I had to pick I'd go with
Burns
Sibley
Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Ali
Archer
Anderson or Broad
Leach.
If the pitch is as Green as suggested by the groundsman in interview I'd seriously consider playing both Anderson and Broad ahead of Archer and hoping we bowl first. Take the game by the scruff with early wickets.
If it looks like your standard flat, dry Indian pitch Id keep Archer in the team above. The Extra pace will be needed
-
They’ve basically said Pope will be at 3 haven’t they?
-
They’ve basically said Pope will be at 3 haven’t they?
Have they? I don't mind that.
-
I do think Ali is an option, but I suppose it comes down to what do the management think we need runs or an extra bowler.
I think by batting Stokes at 3 you severely dent the amount of overs he can bowl though, and he may be needed for some wonder spells on flat pitches to make something happen etc....
I was influenced by the person mentioning Ali's hundreds. Agree with the point about Stokes and bowling.
-
Have they? I don't mind that.
cant find it now but sure I read a quote that, at the very least, hinted strongly that would be the case.
-
cant find it now but sure I read a quote that, at the very least, hinted strongly that would be the case.
I've read things along the lines of 'set to replace Crawley'. But didn"t necessarily interpret as 'will bat at 3'.
-
Think Lawrence makes more sense at 3 given he's had recent game time. Get Pope back in at 6 to give him an easier reintroduction.
-
I think Pope will stay 6 myself. I think England will pick Ali also and that might mean no place for Bess if here is any signs of life in the wicket. There might be given India's strong seam attack but at the backend of the game it may revert to type. Ashwin is one of their guns and they won't want a wicket that nullifies him.
Batting order I know lots on here don't believe in moving Root from 4 but for 2 games he def should bat three.
That leaves Lawrence a place down at 4,Stokes 5,Pope 6 and Butler-Ali or Bess next maybe.
I don't really want to see Stokes at 3 and Lawrence has done well but he is a prospect at the moment- much prefer a senior player stepping up for the team.
As for expectations for this tour as @wasted_talent posted, I think us supporters need to get a bit real, we got runs last time and still lost 0-4 and India are on a high.
I want to see the team sticking together when it gets tough and patience with the younger players. And that's all really.
-
Why does Pope deserve protection but Lawrence doesn't? Is it a social class thing?
-
I understand the logic behind Pope being re introduced at 5/6. But he must be a real long term candidate to bat at 3? With Root at 4.
Then depending on how you want to line up bowlers you can have Stokes at 5/6. Then your extra batter currently Lawrence slots in or not.
-
Why does Pope deserve protection but Lawrence doesn't? Is it a social class thing?
?? What on earth are you on about? What social class.
you think the batting line up and team is deceided by a telegram from Lords whilst the members are getting high on gin and tonic?
-
This whole thing shows again that for years we've had a makeshift list of players at #3 who historically don't bat there often and being made to do it.
Anyone else yearning for 2014 era Gary Ballance? Ah.
-
Why does Pope deserve protection but Lawrence doesn't? Is it a social class thing?
No idea where you're getting this "social class" thing from.
Pope is coming back from a fairly long injury lay off and hasn't played a competitive game in quite a while, Lawrence has just played two test matches. That's why.
-
?? What on earth are you on about? What social class.
you think the batting line up and team is deceided by a telegram from Lords whilst the members are getting high on gin and tonic?
What on earth could I possibly be on about?
-
No idea where you're getting this "social class" thing from.
The England cricket team isn't absolutely crammed with public schoolboys then?
-
The England cricket team isn't absolutely crammed with public schoolboys then?
Nobody is denying that, but you haven't given any reasoning why you think that would effect where Lawrence and Pope are placed in the batting order or why that decision wouldn't be based on Pope's long injury layoff?
-
Worth adding that even a cursory bit of research suggests that Dan Lawrence went to an 'oustanding' rated, Catholic high school in a pretty well off area. Not sure the 'social class picks the batting order' narrative stands up to much scrutiny.
-
I dont think the lay off should even come into it. Is it easier to bat at 6 than 3 in India? Debatable.
Pick the best team. Simple.
If popes not ready to play in any position then he shouldn't be in the squad. I personally would have Lawrence at 3 but simply because thats the only spot that needs filling in my 11. If Crawley was fit Lawrence would be carrying drinks
-
Apparently the rights for the four tests come to around £7m. Seems like nothing, no? Curious to see how the bidding war for the Ashes goes, what with Amazon apparently being interested...
-
Apparently the rights for the four tests come to around £7m. Seems like nothing, no? Curious to see how the bidding war for the Ashes goes, what with Amazon apparently being interested...
Maybe something to do with the 4am starts UK time? Not as valuable a slot for advertising purposes you'd imagine.
-
Simple. Root should put his big boy pants on and step up to fill #3, then Pope and Lawrence can play thumb wars to decide upon who goes #4 and #6.
What bowling attack to pick, is the harder consideration. The pitch on offer will dictate that I think.
-
Worth adding that even a cursory bit of research suggests that Dan Lawrence went to an 'oustanding' rated, Catholic high school in a pretty well off area. Not sure the 'social class picks the batting order' narrative stands up to much scrutiny.
It absolutely does in this regard. 100%. Trust me.
Lawrence is not a public schoolboy. The original comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But no-one has spoken of shielding him in the way they have spoken of shielding Pope.
-
It absolutely does in this regard. 100%. Trust me.
Lawrence is not a public schoolboy. The original comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But no-one has spoken of shielding him in the way they have spoken of shielding Pope.
Maybe not that you've seen but it has absolutely been spoken about. "It does, trust me" isn't much of an argument. If you want to talk about opportunities to play professional cricket for kids at independent schools then that's a whole different question but I've seen nothing to suggest that Lawrence is somehow less valued by the England management because he didn't go to a fee paying school. Happy to be proven wrong if you can present some evidence.
On that note, if there was no intent to protect Lawrence on entry to test cricket then why did he bat at 5 in SL and not switch places with Bairstow?
-
Bairstow did score a ton from 3 on the previous Tour?
-
In 2018? Yes. He was quite mad about it.
-
Bairstow did score a ton from 3 on the previous Tour?
That's true, but if Lawrence was being thrown under the bus then it would have been very easy to bat him up the order against Embuldeniya in the second test. I think it's quite clear that they rate him as a prospect and recognise his long term potential.
-
It absolutely does in this regard. 100%. Trust me.
Lawrence is not a public schoolboy. The original comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But no-one has spoken of shielding him in the way they have spoken of shielding Pope.
Ever heard of Hitchens’ Razor? “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”.
“Trust me” holds about as much water as a colander. Our two most shielded players (Stokes and Root) attended academy status schools - not fee paying.
Lawrence has been shielded, he went on several lions tours before converting to the first team, and then batted in his usual position rather than be shoe-horned in (ironically like Pope was when made to bat 3).
As Others have said, you’ve not presented a shred of evidence that the batting order is “based on class”, so as such this claim can be dismissed out of hand 🤷♂️
-
Maybe not that you've seen but it has absolutely been spoken about. "It does, trust me" isn't much of an argument. If you want to talk about opportunities to play professional cricket for kids at independent schools then that's a whole different question but I've seen nothing to suggest that Lawrence is somehow less valued by the England management because he didn't go to a fee paying school. Happy to be proven wrong if you can present some evidence.
On that note, if there was no intent to protect Lawrence on entry to test cricket then why did he bat at 5 in SL and not switch places with Bairstow?
It would be inappropriate for me to use knowledge gleaned in the context of personal relationships. Hence "it does, trust me".
Like I said, the comment was tongue-in-cheek. Which is to say there are not serious underlying issues in relation to lack of opportunity for working-class kids.
-
Ever heard of Hitchens’ Razor? “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”.
“Trust me” holds about as much water as a colander. Our two most shielded players (Stokes and Root) attended academy status schools - not fee paying.
Lawrence has been shielded, he went on several lions tours before converting to the first team, and then batted in his usual position rather than be shoe-horned in (ironically like Pope was when made to bat 3).
As Others have said, you’ve not presented a shred of evidence that the batting order is “based on class”, so as such this claim can be dismissed out of hand 🤷♂️
For the sake of fact, it has to be said Root did go to a fee paying school. But agree without evidence, why even bring up the point of class and selection
-
Apparently the rights for the four tests come to around £7m. Seems like nothing, no? Curious to see how the bidding war for the Ashes goes, what with Amazon apparently being interested...
The Cricketer is claiming it was only £2 million!
Star originally want £20 million for the tour though, no surprise Sky said no thanks at that price.
-
It would be inappropriate for me to use knowledge gleaned in the context of personal relationships. Hence "it does, trust me".
Like I said, the comment was tongue-in-cheek. Which is to say there are not serious underlying issues in relation to lack of opportunity for working-class kids.
Right, so on the basis of no evidence you're willing to share we are to just accept that the England team are willfully disadvantaging one of their brightest prospects because he didn't go to the right school. Not to mention that Silverwood has a prior working relationship with Lawrence from their time at Essex.
The issue of opportunities in elite cricket for kids who don't go to the "right" schools or play for the "right" clubs is a wholly separate one and honestly I think we probably strongly agree on it from the sound of what you've said.
-
For the sake of fact, it has to be said Root did go to a fee paying school. But agree without evidence, why even bring up the point of class and selection
The evidence that there are issues related to class and selection could hardly be more glaring. People from working-class backgrounds rarely get picked.
For the third time I shall say the Lawrence/Pope shielding comment was tongue-in-cheek. There maybe some truth in it but of course I can't provide evidence.
-
The evidence that there are issues related to class and selection could hardly more glaring. People from working-class backgrounds rarely get picked.
For the third time I shall say the Lawrence/Pope shielding comment was tongue-in-cheek. There maybe some truth in it but of course I can't provide evidence.
I agree there is a class issue in professional cricket, but disagree with class impacting the selection of the starting 11.
On another note. I think get Pope back in wherever he fits, he will adapt to whatever position in the order he is put I'm sure.
-
The "it does, trust me" bit was a response to the person who tried to discredit the argument by suggesting that Lawrence also went to a nice school. It didn't mean I 100% thought Pope was getting preferential treatment. Maybe this was misunderstood?
-
Back to the topic of Cricket.
Virat Koli press conference video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQEO4EgFJQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQEO4EgFJQs)
He mentions that the wicket looks to be quite a normal one.
-
'Cos we weren't talking about cricket. :o
-
The "it does, trust me" bit was a response to the person who tried to discredit the argument by suggesting that Lawrence also went to a nice school. It didn't mean I 100% thought Pope was getting preferential treatment. Maybe this was misunderstood?
Perhaps it was, but your views are just your opinion and nothing more, entitled to express them as much as anyone else.
If you believe there a shut door ahead just because you do not attend the right school that's exactly what will be there...a shut door.
Two of my team mates at school had County trails for Middlesex, neither made it because lots of other kids at that age were better, nothing to do with the fact our school was not the right one.
One of my clubs youngsters is now a professional cricketer, it took him 5 different Counties before he became a regular but he comes from the same (No Swearing Please) end of London as I do, his school made no difference.
There's nothing stopping him playing for England should he be considered good enough.
In my opinion there is absolutely no reason for the England batting order other than who fits best where and Root wanting to stick at 4.
Class issues however do exist in all walks of life, but nothing to do with who bats where in the England side,your looking for something that is not there.
-
So none of these people would have been better cricketers if they had had better facilities as they were developing?
The cricketer who has 'made it' has surely done so despite disadvantage? His success is not evidence that inequality doesn't exist.
-
Good lord... going places this thread..
For me:
1. Burns
2. Sibley
3. Lawrence (Ali if we want a more proven spin bowling option, although Lawrence can throw his arm over quite well I believe too)
4. Root
5. Stokes
6. Pope
7. Buttler
8. Bess
9. Archer (first name on for me)
10. Leach
11. Broad
-
He says, putting Lawrence at 3!
-
And while we're on the subject of working-class boy done good Dan Lawrence, has the fact that he was used for just 2 out of well over 200 overs of spin in Sri Lanka not persuaded anyone that he's not seen as much of a bowling option?
-
Good lord... going places this thread..
For me:
1. Burns
2. Sibley
3. Lawrence (Ali if we want a more proven spin bowling option, although Lawrence can throw his arm over quite well I believe too)
4. Root
5. Stokes
6. Pope
7. Buttler
8. Bess
9. Archer (first name on for me)
10. Leach
11. Broad
I agree this is the 11 for me. Wouldn't want to go too spin heavy if the groundsman is to be believed
-
He says, putting Lawrence at 3!
Yes, he has to go somewhere as I liked the way he played in the first test in Sri Lanka so would prefer him in the side rather than out of it.
I prefer Pope’s batting average and style he has played in previous matches at 6 compared to him higher up the order.
I wouldn’t move Root as his career quite obviously shows his favoured position is 4 and we’ll need him at his run scoring best in this series.
Stokes at 3? Potentially, although I prefer how the batting line up looks with him at 5 particularly after some time off and him bowling too.
-
For the sake of fact, it has to be said Root did go to a fee paying school. But agree without evidence, why even bring up the point of class and selection
Root attended King Ecgberts college in Sheffield. That is an academy and not a fee paying school. But I agree with your point.
-
And while we're on the subject of working-class boy done good Dan Lawrence, has the fact that he was used for just 2 out of well over 200 overs of spin in Sri Lanka not persuaded anyone that he's not seen as much of a bowling option?
He would be more of an option in one day cricket, you'd reckon.
-
And while we're on the subject of working-class boy done good Dan Lawrence, has the fact that he was used for just 2 out of well over 200 overs of spin in Sri Lanka not persuaded anyone that he's not seen as much of a bowling option?
Lawrence has fewer first class wickets than Jason Roy at a worse average and strike rate. Jason Roy doesn't even have a bowling style listed on cricinfo!
-
Lawrence has fewer first class wickets than Jason Roy at a worse average and strike rate. Jason Roy doesn't even have a bowling style listed on cricinfo!
I think thats the best put down of a claim on here ive seen for many a moon :D
-
Root attended King Ecgberts college in Sheffield. That is an academy and not a fee paying school. But I agree with your point.
He then attended Worksop college. However, it doesn't matter nobody will be thinking about it when he's churning out runs this week
-
I'd love to see the breakdown of when, where and why Jason Roy bowled 712 deliveries in first class cricket 😂
-
The Cricketer is claiming it was only £2 million!
Star originally want £20 million for the tour though, no surprise Sky said no thanks at that price.
I do think that Sky were setting down a marker that they wouldn't be held to ransom when those sums are far in excess of what the market will pay
-
I'd love to see the breakdown of when, where and why Jason Roy bowled 712 deliveries in first class cricket 😂
I've seen him bowl. Medium pace. Remember it being quite tidy.
-
Lawrence has fewer first class wickets than Jason Roy at a worse average and strike rate. Jason Roy doesn't even have a bowling style listed on cricinfo!
I knew. People kept mentioning his bowling. I said he would be way behind Joe Root in the pecking order.
-
I think thats the best put down of a claim on here ive seen for many a moon :D
play nicely please - mods
-
Having a bat first. Will it be worth getting up for? I doubt it...
-
Awww I really wanted to see Moeen!
-
Pant dropped one already, that didn't take long 😅
-
Pant dropped one already, that didn't take long 😅
The delayed response crowd noise was hilarious - 'quick, press the dropped catch button!'
-
I'd love to see the breakdown of when, where and why Jason Roy bowled 712 deliveries in first class cricket 😂
I remember watching the game Roy made his first first-class ton, he was also bowling first change at that point! Quite nicely too.
-
Retro GN ultimate stickers on sibleys bat
-
Burns bringing on the collapse
-
What has the TV replay guy been smoking? 😂
-
Hope I’m wrong but at the moment I’m not sure on the little he has played that Lawrence is a No3 in red ball cricket. Could just be that he isn’t the best starter as I believe it’s one score of substance from 5 so far but even in Sri Lanka just doesnt look comfortable early on to me.
-
It was all going so well..... and then, oh dear. Silly Burns. Just no need at all
-
Latest edition of third umpires annoying me... Joe Root almost past the stumps for a run out yet the 3rd ump spends an age looking at if Ashwin gathered the ball cleanly before taking off the bails.
-
Hope I’m wrong but at the moment I’m not sure on the little he has played that Lawrence is a No3 in red ball cricket. Could just be that he isn’t the best starter as I believe it’s one score of substance from 5 so far but even in Sri Lanka just doesnt look comfortable early on to me.
To be fair, that's a pretty difficult ball to get 5 balls into your innings.
-
Hope I’m wrong but at the moment I’m not sure on the little he has played that Lawrence is a No3 in red ball cricket. Could just be that he isn’t the best starter as I believe it’s one score of substance from 5 so far but even in Sri Lanka just doesnt look comfortable early on to me.
He doesn't quite have that simple, watertight technique that you want from a 3
Square peg in a round hole a little bit.
-
He doesn't quite have that simple, watertight technique that you want from a 3
Square peg in a round hole a little bit.
Don't know that Labuschagne has a simple, watertight technique either but he's the standout 3 in world cricket right now. 3 might not be where Lawrence bats long term but I wouldn't write him off on the basis of one innings in his third test.
-
But Lawrence isn't a number 3, he's there because Crawley was injured?
-
Don't know that Labuschagne has a simple, watertight technique either but he's the standout 3 in world cricket right now. 3 might not be where Lawrence bats long term but I wouldn't write him off on the basis of one innings in his third test.
Who said I was writing him off? Are you a Lawrence fanboy?
Labuschagnes technique is definitely watertight! He averages 60. Its not traditional but his technique is superb. You'll be telling me Smith and KP don't have a good technique next
Remember a technique is just something that helps you perform consistently. Not what you've read in the 1990 MCC coaching book
-
To be fair, that's a pretty difficult ball to get 5 balls into your innings.
Have to agree, it was a decent ball from bumrah.
-
Who said I was writing him off? Are you a Lawrence fanboy?
Labuschagnes technique is definitely watertight! He averages 60. Its not traditional but his technique is superb. You'll be telling me Smith and KP don't have a good technique next
Remember a technique is just something that helps you perform consistently. Not what you've read in the 1990 MCC coaching book
Think you need to explain what you mean by “water tight” yes he might not play like your ‘text book’ cricketer but he has scored plenty of runs in FC cricket using the technique, test cricket is a totally different ball game to FC the lad needs to be given a chance
-
Who said I was writing him off? Are you a Lawrence fanboy?
Labuschagnes technique is definitely watertight! He averages 60. Its not traditional but his technique is superb. You'll be telling me Smith and KP don't have a good technique next
Remember a technique is just something that helps you perform consistently. Not what you've read in the 1990 MCC coaching book
You didn't just say watertight though, you said simple and watertight. Labuschagne's is definitely not simple and yet as you point out he's been very successful batting at 3.
And you said he doesn't have the technique you want for a number 3 and is a square peg in a round hole at 3, is that not writing him off as a number 3 option for England?
-
But Lawrence isn't a number 3, he's there because Crawley was injured?
Why isn’t Lawrence a number 3 ? That is where he bats in FC cricket. Crawley’s isn’t a number 3 either, he opens the batting for Kent
-
Maybe I should remove the word 'simple' from my first comment to avoid confusion.
By watertight I mean a consistent, clear approach that works for him. Lawrence has looked vulnerable in a few different areas so far, this indicates to me an inconsistent technique, or a flustered mind.
Not many players in history have had the Ian Bell, high front elbow, play in the V etc. Are we saying that all other batsmen have a bad technique? Come on
-
You didn't just say watertight though, you said simple and watertight. Labuschagne's is definitely not simple and yet as you point out he's been very successful batting at 3.
And you said he doesn't have the technique you want for a number 3 and is a square peg in a round hole at 3, is that not writing him off as a number 3 option for England?
Are you telling me that England came to India with the plan that Dan Lawrence would bat at 3?
Of course they didn't. Hes been thrown in due to injury. You are familiar with the phrase square peg round hole? If I wished to write him off I would simply say so, I have no problem speaking plainly
In fact if you check back I have him at 3 in my team.
-
How doesn’t Lawrence’s technique work for him? His numbers in FC cricket proves he can score runs with his technique, test cricket is a totally different ball game to first class, the lad needs to be given a chance, the conditions certainly aren’t the most batsman friendly
-
To be fair, that's a pretty difficult ball to get 5 balls into your innings.
100% not want you want 5 balls into an innings. My view on Lawrence is just a gut feeling that at the moment he looks very vulnerable, especially early in his innings and then Cook said the same on the lunch break. He is more of a 5/6 for Essex more often so is another in this very very strong middle order area.
-
Maybe I should remove the word 'simple' from my first comment to avoid confusion.
By watertight I mean a consistent, clear approach that works for him. Lawrence has looked vulnerable in a few different areas so far, this indicates to me an inconsistent technique, or a flustered mind.
Not many players in history have had the Ian Bell, high front elbow, play in the V etc. Are we saying that all other batsmen have a bad technique? Come on
I think this is where we're confusing the discussion. Complicated techniques are not necessarily bad techniques, Burns scored 1000+ FC runs for 5 years in a row with a very complicated technique.
I'm not so sure that Lawrence has a particularly complicated technique, at least not since he got rid of his big trigger movement. I would agree with you though that he's looked a bit mentally unclear on his game plan in his test career so far, with the obvious caveat that it's a very small sample size. Bear in mind that he's faced less than 250 balls and does already have a 50 to his name in pretty difficult conditions.
-
How doesn’t Lawrence’s technique work for him? His numbers in FC cricket proves he can score runs with his technique, test cricket is a totally different ball game to first class, the lad needs to be given a chance, the conditions certainly aren’t the most batsman friendly
I have no problem atall with him being given a chance. I want anyone who plays for England to do well.
Im just not convinced from what Ive seen ao far that in 5 years time we'll be talking about Dan Lawrence Englands number 3. I hope Im wrong!
-
I think this is where we're confusing the discussion. Complicated techniques are not necessarily bad techniques, Burns scored 1000+ FC runs for 5 years in a row with a very complicated technique.
I'm not so sure that Lawrence has a particularly complicated technique, at least not since he got rid of his big trigger movement. I would agree with you though that he's looked a bit mentally unclear on his game plan in his test career so far, with the obvious caveat that it's a very small sample size. Bear in mind that he's faced less than 250 balls and does already have a 50 to his name in pretty difficult conditions.
Totally agree, no one picks sibley or burns apart when they fail, so why is Lawrence any different? Yes he’s had a few low scores but it’s far too soon to write him off, if I can remember Pope had a run of low scores but look at the lad now, it all comes with game time in the test arena
-
Sibley would benefit a little from learning from Root how to rotate the strike a bit more. He puts himself under a lot of pressure at times. He is playing well though!
-
Totally agree, no one picks sibley or burns apart when they fail, so why is Lawrence any different? Yes he’s had a few low scores but it’s far too soon to write him off, if I can remember Pope had a run of low scores but look at the lad now, it all comes with game time in the test arena
Both have been talked about extensively on the forum before, maybe not in this thread
-
Sibley would benefit a little from learning from Root how to rotate the strike a bit more. He puts himself under a lot of pressure at times. He is playing well though!
He's definitely got the right approach to improving his game to learn from someone like Root. Has looked miles better against spin today and you can't fault his mental approach to batting time as a test opener.
-
Both have been talked about extensively on the forum before, maybe not in this thread
Yes they most definitely have, but they’ve learnt how to adapt to test cricket over time, Lawrence is 3 tests into his test career, let’s see what his stats are like after 10/20 tests in a mixture of conditions and not just sub continent
-
Yes they most definitely have, but they’ve learnt how to adapt to test cricket over time, Lawrence is 3 tests into his test career, let’s see what his stats are like after 10/20 tests in a mixture of conditions and not just sub continent
With Bairstow and Crawley back in the frame after the 2nd Test I would say hes only got these first two to make an impression for the foreseeable
-
Yes they most definitely have, but they’ve learnt how to adapt to test cricket over time, Lawrence is 3 tests into his test career, let’s see what his stats are like after 10/20 tests in a mixture of conditions and not just sub continent
Spot on. Given I mentioned Labuschagne earlier, worth noting that he averaged (if my maths is right) 23.8 with no fifties after his first five test innings. Lawrence averages 24.75 with one fifty.
-
With Bairstow and Crawley back in the frame after the 2nd Test I would say hes only got these first two to make an impression for the foreseeable
I agree, maybe he has only got these two games to prove a point, but he can’t be wrote off and have questions asked about his technique/game plan after 4/5 tests, he’s still finding his feet at this level and in very testing conditions. Maybe it is too much too soon for him but let’s at least give him a chance because the selectors obviously see him in future plans going forward
-
I agree, maybe he has only got these two games to prove a point, but he can’t be wrote off and have questions asked about his technique/game plan after 4/5 tests, he’s still finding his feet at this level and in very testing conditions. Maybe it is too much too soon for him but let’s at least give him a chance because the selectors obviously see him in future plans going forward
Again, I haven't written anyone off. I repeat - I want him to succeed.
But I can question whatever I choose to regarding his batting. There are much more pointless subjects spoken about when it comes to England cricketers
There was an arguement over who went to school where yesterday
-
Spot on. Given I mentioned Labuschagne earlier, worth noting that he averaged (if my maths is right) 23.8 with no fifties after his first five test innings. Lawrence averages 24.75 with one fifty.
So he has about 12 more innings to get that average up to 60?
Probably not a good comparison to make
-
Are the highlights going to be shown anywhere?
Unfortunately I've had to physically go into the office today.
-
Think we are going to need 500 1st dig on this wicket. Realise wickets deteriorate quickly in India but anything less and we haven't made proper use of this.
-
Think we are going to need 500 1st dig on this wicket. Realise wickets deteriorate quickly in India but anything less and we haven't made proper use of this.
It does look like a proper featherbed, although also like it's going to fall to bits later in the game. Good toss to win if England can make the most of it!
-
May be a bit flat, but the ball is reversing a decent amount. Root and Sibley saw out that pressure period really well
-
Don’t want to give him the kiss of death but.........it nice to see sibley playing shots like that !
-
Think we are going to need 500 1st dig on this wicket. Realise wickets deteriorate quickly in India but anything less and we haven't made proper use of this.
That will take us 2 and a half days at the current rate :D
But no agreed, bat big first innings while the pitch is at its best. Take the loss out of the equation
Have to say im surprised Kuldeep was overlooked this morning, genuine wicket taker
-
That will take us 2 and a half days at the current rate :D
But no agreed, bat big first innings while the pitch is at its best. Take the loss out of the equation
Have to say im surprised Kuldeep was overlooked this morning, genuine wicket taker
I think the Sri Lanka left armer getting all the wickets against us meant Axer was always going to play, so they have replaced with another left armer
-
Lets go Fridge!
-
Loving Sibley's bat- looks chunky
-
Well kuldeep is a left armer just not a finger spinner.
I feel that if you already have 2 finger spinners to give you control you can afford a bit of a risk with your third.
But who am i to question VK
-
Are the highlights going to be shown anywhere?
Unfortunately I've had to physically go into the office today.
All going to be on All4 later mate, just said on air :)
-
Loving Sibley's bat- looks chunky
What’s the chances of the retail version being shaped like that?
I can see one of the 2 retro models being the same shape as the Powerspot from the past 2 years.
-
Are the highlights going to be shown anywhere?
Unfortunately I've had to physically go into the office today.
On All4, so VOD if you want.
-
God I love Joe
-
God I love Joe
Some of those sweeps have been extremely tasty. Really looks back to his best which is wonderful to see, even from a neutral perspective.
-
India, and the pitch, look very flat here. Yes the scoring rate isn't phenomenal but if England can keep them, and Virat 'mood swings' Kohli, out in the field for 3 days I reckon they could force a result in the final two days as conditions deteriorate. Or as a bare minimum lay down a marker and exhaust the Indians ahead of the rest of the series. Too often we take the English conditions thought process away with us and build a solid platform up to 300-350 and then go in for a biff to get up to 400 and consider ourselves to be in a great position. In England 400 is a lot, in India that's pocket change in the first innings.
-
The tinge of green on the wicket is disappearing and the red clay is there so it's pretty much as expected
It's going to spin big I think as the pitch gets more wear on it.
So far really good from us, it's slow but day 1 of a test it's a solid effort.
The sweep shot is being played by Root maybe as good as any England batsman before. Gooch was a good player of spin, KP too.
Trying to think of anyone playing it better than at the moment.
-
I vaguely recall Thorpe also been a decent player of spin?
-
I vaguely recall Thorpe also been a decent player of spin?
Yes absolutely he was superb, he also played pace very well.
root is at home against spin, Sibley from the last knock in SL maybe is showing he can adapt and change to improve.
Sibley perhaps is the most impressive as it does not look natural to him.
-
Yes absolutely he was superb, he also played pace very well.
root is at home against spin, Sibley from the last knock in SL maybe is showing he can adapt and change to improve.
Sibley perhaps is the most impressive as it does not look natural to him.
Sibley's improvement has been really impressive. He's clearly not afraid of doing the hard work away from games, properly determined to make the most of his chance.
-
What’s the chances of the retail version being shaped like that?
I can see one of the 2 retro models being the same shape as the Powerspot from the past 2 years.
It's probably not even made by GN! 😄
-
Sibley's improvement has been really impressive. He's clearly not afraid of doing the hard work away from games, properly determined to make the most of his chance.
A good sign was him losing weight and getting fitter in the first lockdown. He wasn't particularly large before but had seen how fit other international players were and appreciated how better fitness would help him improve his game so he did it. Very much strikes me as someone with a limited amount of natural talent but a real desire to constantly improve. Definitely the sort of player you want in your team.
-
Yeah, think that goes to show the mindset he has. Believe Kohli did much the same when he was a young player, just pure hard work to get the absolute most out of his talent.
-
Cruel way to finish a good day from Sibley. Think mentally he was already in the pavilion as the incredibly slow pitch meant Bumrah wasn't looking very threatening. It was going to need a yorker/full toss for Bumrah to actually beat him for pace and that's what he did. Fair play to Bumrah for still putting in the hard yards after a really tough day.
-
Think England would probably not mind that at the end. The stage is set for Stokes/Buttler to capitalize on this foundation. Anything above 500 will only leave 2 possible results; Draw or Eng win. It was a pretty flat Day 1 pitch but kudos to Root and Sibley for that perfect partnership.
-
Totally agree, no one picks sibley or burns apart when they fail, so why is Lawrence any different? Yes he’s had a few low scores but it’s far too soon to write him off, if I can remember Pope had a run of low scores but look at the lad now, it all comes with game time in the test arena
*Coughs*
-
Did anyone notice the Indian players body language? not particularly inspiring, not a lot of chat in the field either. weird.
-
Did anyone notice the Indian players body language? not particularly inspiring, not a lot of chat in the field either. weird.
Get the feeling they expected to roll Eng over so they were probably a bit surprised how ineffective they were today
-
Normally that happens if errors creep into the fielding
I think today they were a bit sloppy.
Doesn’t look to be much in the pitch but the spinners you would think will be in the game. I think it’s going to turn big later on
-
I think today just showed how much India missed Jadeja and what a wonderful cricketer he is.
-
Some of their fielding there atrocious; one of the young lads stopping the ball on the outfield with his foot which could have turned into a Glenn McGrath, misfields, overthrows of which a guy like Ashwin has no chance of getting. Something like 11 no balls as well.
As above, they miss Jadeja massively, whichever left arm spinner they bring in just won't be near his quality he brings to their side...
-
Eng in really good position with Root still batting and the likes of Stokes/Buttler/Pope still to follow. Root has gone on to a different level now.
-
Steady boys - we've still got to get another 200 runs at least to make it interesting.
Stokes gets out early tomorrow, who's getting them?
Could be a big day for Pope.
-
We need double what we have now. Pope has been out for a while not expecting miracles from him..but yes we need more contributions tommorow.
Very interested to see how our spinners go-there was some reverse swing for them and that could be very handy.
Our seamers may still be our best bet.
-
Root comes in for criticism for his low conversion rate of 50s into 100s, but his record would be far better than it is already if he got to play half his innings on flat decks like this one and the bowlers were only allowed to use dog balls.
In recent times, it seems that Root has been held up in an unfavourable light compared to Smith and Kholi but without recognition of some of the cheap runs they have gorged on in home conditions
-
Root comes in for criticism for his low conversion rate of 50s into 100s, but his record would be far better than it is already if he got to play half his innings on flat decks like this one and the bowlers were only allowed to use dog balls.
In recent times, it seems that Root has been held up in an unfavourable light compared to Smith and Kholi but without recognition of some of the cheap runs they have gorged on in home conditions
Smith's average in Australia is about 6 runs higher than his overall test average and he's scored circa half his runs at home.
Root, in contrast, has also scored close to half his runs in England at an average roughly 0.4 runs above his overall average.
As phenomenal as Smith is, stats do make for interesting reading.
-
Bumrah's yorker is so lethal
-
Gosh I'm so excited about this series! I really didn't think England would still be batting.
Very happy!
-
Roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot
-
Marry me Ben
-
Would love us to go really big in the first innings (600 plus)
Obvs it means we would bat India out the game, but psychologically it would be a great yardstick to show we can do it again and out in Aus.
-
Considering there were two men back square on the leg side, that was a pretty poor shot from Stokes. It was a very classic "We're got nearly 400, lets have a slog" mentality that has plagued England away from home for years. Shame because it was a good knock up until that point and means we've now only got one more recognised bat in the shed and still want/need another 200 runs.
-
I am suspecting the pitch will start deteriorating rapidly from day 3 onwards, so Eng might not even need 600 even though it looks like 600 can be easily made. Even with 500 odd runs, it can be difficult for india starting on day 3 pitch.
-
I am suspecting the pitch will start deteriorating rapidly from day 3 onwards, so Eng might not even need 600 even though it looks like 600 can be easily made. Even with 500 odd runs, it can be difficult for india starting on day 3 pitch.
Yeah agree, we need double what we ended up on yesterday. Def looks like a turning wicket but with a bit of reverse swing our seamers may be our best bet also...
The ball is nearly in shreds why they don't use an English style ball is beyond me. There is nothing to work with - it might be an SG ball don't know
-
Pope and Roots running between wickets is starting to make me munch my cornflakes nervously!
Steady boys, steady!
-
What a way to bring it up
-
Pope and Root is just such a sexy batting partnership to watch.
-
Really hope it doesn't fall apart now Root has gone
-
Interesting point made by the tv commenator. If a bowler gets a hat-trick, but the hat-trick ball is bowled in the second innings, why is it still a hat-trick? He said in that case if a batsman was 70 not out in the first innings and scores 30 in the second, should this not be counted as a ton scored. Never though of it like that, but he has a point.
-
Good wee knock by Bess this, could be very useful runs.
-
It's at this point where you run out of superlatives to describe Root. Just, yeah.
Really hope he goes past Mohammad Yousuf's record of test runs in a calendar year in the same amount of matches, no reason why he shouldn't...
-
Smith's average in Australia is about 6 runs higher than his overall test average and he's scored circa half his runs at home.
Root, in contrast, has also scored close to half his runs in England at an average roughly 0.4 runs above his overall average.
As phenomenal as Smith is, stats do make for interesting reading.
What stands out about Root is how consistent he is. Averages the same home and away and his record against each opponent has a very small spread. Even his weakness in converting 50s into 100s shows how consistent he is in making starts given that he doesn't have as many big knocks to cancel out failures.
The comparison of his home and away record is remarkable though when compared to the other 4 of the top 5 ranked test batsmen in the world. Smith 67-57, Kholi 68-44, Williamson 65-45 and Labushagne 72-39.
-
Has anyone done a video analysis of Joe Root's batting technique in India/Sri Lanka?
-
Only thing I've seen, is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lShDrPUAhzU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lShDrPUAhzU)
-
^ this is great, thanks!
-
No problem. He also did a nice interview with Sky before this IND test started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zseGkFiXIig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zseGkFiXIig)
-
^ "Not available in your country".
Sky Sports is stingy with their content. :D
-
Ah that's a shame. There was just a few comments about his mindset, finding a rhythm, and not getting caught playing around that middle length area when playing spin. Nothing too technical.
-
^ "Not available in your country".
Sky Sports is stingy with their content. :D
The wonderful world of TV rights!
-
For those that havnt binned sky sports this may not bring any joy but...
Having test cricket on 'normal' TV has been a joyous experience.
Don't care about analysis,technical advice from ex players, the presenters,the set, nothing
Just the cricket has been enough :)
-
It's great to have Test Cricket on free to air TV.
However, the production and commentary value is rather village in comparison though IMHO.
-
It's great to have Test Cricket on free to air TV.
However, the production and commentary value is rather village in comparison though IMHO.
I think it might have been interesting if they had got the rights earlier what C4 would have done with it all.
But with that late notice, they are taking the local commentary and would have had to set up in days.
-
Yes, can't disagree with that.
The cricket still outweighs the C4 negatives though.
-
I think this is our 2nd highest test total in India. Some effort!
-
I’d happily pay for sky cricket every month JUST to have cricket on council telly!
-
I think it might have been interesting if they had got the rights earlier what C4 would have done with it all.
But with that late notice, they are taking the local commentary and would have had to set up in days a day.
Correction made, notice was minimal.
They are taking the Star Feed so still using Hawkeye for analysis pieces, just not delivered by Athers and Nasser.
The actual C4 production is just as Sky would do for a neutral test. I’m happy to see cricket on FTA. And nice to get a different feel to England cricket rather than the usual Sky production.
-
Sorry, as a consumer I strongly disagree. Many times in test series Sky influence and shape live feed, they often have live coms to the camera operators.
-
It's great to have Test Cricket on free to air TV.
However, the production and commentary value is rather village in comparison though IMHO.
Agreed, great to see test cricket on a free-to-air station but the production quality hasn't made maximum value of the opportunity. I hope that this was an interim measure and they have something better for the final three tests.
This was always going to look poor compared to the last time C4 had test cricket in 2005, and there isn't a lot they can do about how dreadful the host broadcaster's commentary team is, but the studio segments were a painfully bad. It had the feel of two guys or have never met before stuck in a lobby waiting for a job interview trying to make conversation to be polite. Again, I appreciate that the host broadcaster won't be taking account of the fact that this being made available to a new audience who may not have a lot of knowledge of the game, but why this isn't the focus in the studio segments is a mystery to me
-
Sorry, as a consumer I strongly disagree. Many times in test series Sky influence and shape live feed, they often have live coms to the camera operators.
I don’t disagree the production isn’t as good as Sky during the English summer. But I mean it’s refreshing change to see how England as perceived by another broadcaster.
I’m equally a consumer, the company I’m working at provide the graphics (not just to Sky/BCCI but to most cricket broadcast), amongst other bits and pieces.
But I find it had to pin channel 4 (Sunset and Vine) given the UK is in lockdown, they had just over 24hrs to prepare, there’s already Aus domestic cricket going on, Two other test series, some T10 rubbish going on the Abu Dhabi. And they can’t use any one that’s got a BBC, Sky or Talksport contract. I hope the studio coverage does improve as the tests go on, as it’s a great opportunity to grow the game.
PS. Before any one asks no we can’t move the annoying BCCI logo from the top left... :( Long live 4:3 pictures
-
20 no balls from India, abysmal.
-
YES JOF
-
Gill looks such a talent, part of me wants him out soon but I wouldn't mind watching him bat all day either!
-
Jofraaaa!
-
YES YES YES YES YES
-
Wonderful from Archer.
Did anyone notice the face of Gill's bat? Looked very different to the 'pro grade' bats often seen and craved.....
-
Wonderful from Archer.
Did anyone notice the face of Gill's bat? Looked very different to the 'pro grade' bats often seen and craved.....
Saw Bairstow was using a butterfly stained bat not too long ago as well. Be interesting to see if it sparks a bit more interest in performance over looks bats.
-
Interesting isn't it. One thing you can pretty much guarantee is that Pro's will favour performance over looks!!
More noticeable on his naked bat. I guess he is looking for a sponsor but still no chance he had to buy it himself lol
-
I heard he does have a sponsor but there was some issue with ICC approval or something. His pads look to have a sponsor logo at least.
-
WHAT A CATCH
-
Just turned on and first ball rahane has smashed a wide full bunger to Root, hell of a catch
I take back what i said about India not giving us wickets, i know nothing!
-
Bess with two huge wickets.. if he can get pujara soon too that will be the perfect 3fer for England!
-
I dont like Bess bowling without a mid/long off. He did at times against Sri Lanka aswell
You can get away with it if your off-spinner is a big turner of the ball but Bess isnt. Anything slightly over pitched is a fairly simple boundary. Not sure Pujaras going to slog or reverse sweep so take one of those men to plug that gap
-
Pant going after Leech here, seems a very attacking player when the cards are down he seems to just go hard.
-
Bess bowling looks similar to Lyon to me - the flight/dip and line and lengths he is bowling currently. Add to that his batting ability, he definitely has a long career ahead of him.
-
This is the best Aunt Bessie has bowled for England by far. As for Leach... meh.
-
Pant going after Leech here, seems a very attacking player when the cards are down he seems to just go hard.
He would be a nightmare to set a field to, can literally hit the ball anywhere
Im guessing with 550 on the board England are not too worried about him hitting out of the rough at this stage
-
Looking at that 2nd 6 I think Lawrence could have made a better attempt at it.
It only went over the boundary at head height. Looks like he got his body position wrong and was left grasping sideways
-
4 sixes from 13 balls Pant has faced from Leech. Talented and fearless player, almost deserves a place in the side as just a batter as keeping looks avg from little seen in Aus and this test
-
Needs to take Leach off before this gets worse
-
So poor from Leach. Does he have any variation whatsoever? Time for Sir Joe to get loose.
-
Wonderful from Archer.
Did anyone notice the face of Gill's bat? Looked very different to the 'pro grade' bats often seen and craved.....
I'm quite far behind live coverage, so won't be scrolling too far into this topic.
But looks like Gill has been raiding someone's kit bag.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50917063123_d427fff697_h.jpg)
-
Now confirmed that only a "Kholi" and not "Kohli" sharpie bat is genuine Virat Kohli pro bat
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3J5FKHr/thumbnail-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3J5FKHr)
Gotta love this modern world; Sunday morning in the snowy Netherlands watching live cricket from Chennai
Thank you Channel 4 :)
-
Bess with two huge wickets.. if he can get pujara soon too that will be the perfect 3fer for England!
Oh yes!!
-
Bess continues to take wickets with filth, well bowled lad.
Pujara, VK and Rahane in the book!
-
Finally, England’s premier spinner comes on.
-
Bess continues to take wickets with filth, well bowled lad.
Pujara, VK and Rahane in the book!
And now pant!!
Can't work out if that was a good innings, a stupid one or a lucky one...
It's hardly the 91 India needed but it's 91!
-
Thank God
-
And now pant!!
Can't work out if that was a good innings, a stupid one or a lucky one...
It's hardly the 91 India needed but it's 91!
I think they know what they're going to get from Pant in terms of tempo and accept whatever results come because of it. Certainly good to watch!
-
One on Joe, bring them up and put a little pressure on the batsmen!
-
Root getting leachy back into the attack after Pant has gone is good captaincy.
Big tick for Root here, Leach is key in this tour for us
-
Root getting leachy back into the attack after Pant has gone is good captaincy.
Big tick for Root here, Leach is key in this tour for us
Agreed. While he was far from his best there aren't many batsmen in world cricket that will attack you out of the rough like that.
It was a superb counter attack
-
India will come stronger 2nd inning but it would be too late with loads of work to do.
Eng is on top here with win in sight
-
If we can knock them over quickly tomorrow, with a follow on they would need 400 second time round, worst case scenario and they're 150 behind then we would need to bat quickly to 150
A chase of 300 will be tough
-
New ball due tomorrow - can’t see the tail surviving too long.
275 lead and stick them back in in the last session
-
If we can knock them over quickly tomorrow, with a follow on they would need 400 second time round, worst case scenario and they're 150 behind then we would need to bat quickly to 150
A chase of 300 will be tough
I can't see England enforcing the follow-on.
-
They might enforce if they knock them over in the first 20-30 mins of play, but then you’re still risking the bowlers having 3 days in the field. One of them is 54 years old, so probably not the best plan. I’d say there’s about a 2% chance of asking them to follow on.
-
I don’t think we will but we are in a good position-just need to break the partnership in the morning.
Bess has bowled better here, a great catch from Root helped and another good one by Pope.had Archer held on to that difficult one it would of been even better.
Am I the only one watching Archer thinking again he has cut his pace because of a slow wicket...is that the right way to bowl when you get a slow deck?
-
I don’t think we will but we are in a good position-just need to break the partnership in the morning.
Bess has bowled better here, a great catch from Root helped and another good one by Pope.had Archer held on to that difficult one it would of been even better.
Am I the only one watching Archer thinking again he has cut his pace because of a slow wicket...is that the right way to bowl when you get a slow deck?
He's been trying to bowl more cutters so I imagine pace off makes sense, yes.
-
Stokes is so good
-
Well that's a good start for England...
-
What do people think is the target?
Cook says a 400 lead
-
Joe Root is so good
-
60 ball ton from Sir Ben Stokes, then stick them back in...
-
Why not send butler in for quick runs
-
Love the game in all its formats but you just cannot beat the ebb and flow of a tight, well fought test match between two quality sides.
Intriguing post tea session ahead!
-
Not going anywhere at the moment
Without spit on the ball and seeing windies chase 395 vs bang. England going for the safe option and taking time out of the game
-
What on Earth are we doing, Bess just padding everything away
-
Not going anywhere at the moment
Without spit on the ball and seeing windies chase 395 vs bang. England going for the safe option and taking time out of the game
And not forgetting how India batted in the 4th innings at Sydney and Brisbane
-
And not forgetting how India batted in the 4th innings at Sydney and Brisbane
Agree probably the pant factor. But very defensive mindset from England having been on top of the game for 4 days
-
Looks like we're batting to give India 400 off 110 ISH overs...
Only Gill averages more second innings than first and this pitch is starting to liven up
-
More time being taken out of the game with that review.
24 overs left for the day - can’t see them getting them all in with india slowing the game down
Still no declaration with leach coming out to bat
-
I am at a loss to understand what our objective is at the moment from this session
-
I am watching this and really can't understand the objective at all, I really hope we don't regret it
-
There is a plan but bit hard to see what it is..
We are taking time out of the game ourselves.
Maybe Pant spooked England and Root thinks 400 is gettable....dunno
-
40 minutes wasted for no reason
-
A blessing they got bowled out! Very bizarre cricket
Probably only 16-17 overs possible now tonight
-
Decision made for us now in any case. I'd guess they want to be in a position to bat India out the game in terms of time/overs to chase whilst also hoping the pitch keeps deteriorating. The way Pant batted yesterday and Root today, shows that it isn't impossible to score quickly.
-
Agree probably the pant factor. But very defensive mindset from England having been on top of the game for 4 days
Quite defensive but understandable considering the lack of top class spinners.
Wont be easy for India to survive but draw the favourite for me now
-
I still see England winning this with all the turn on offer
-
Beauty from Leach to get rid of Sharma. Reminded me of Wheelie Bin Vs Damien Martyn in 2005.
-
Beauty from Leach to get rid of Sharma. Reminded me of Wheelie Bin Vs Damien Martyn in 2005.
Certainly not a bad ball - he looked proper proud of it!
-
Fingers crossed the plan works for tomorrow. Inverview with bowling coach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSG6oplmbkQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSG6oplmbkQ)
-
I hope we give Anderson first use of the ball while it's still at its best.if there is any movement he's the one with the skill to get something out of it.
The pitch is not a minefield thou so expect India to bat all day, if luck and chances come our way we could sneak it
-
Eng strategy makes sense. If they gave same target to India with 4 full sessions, it would have given Eng a higher chance to win but would have also given India a chance to win. By giving ~110 overs for 420 target, they have effectively made sure the only possibilities are Eng win or draw from here. Also, it could be argued that Eng win chances are higher under reduced overs as Ind will need to take more risks if they are to go for a win from here versus if they started out at tea yesterday.
-
That's another cracking ball from Leach, thrilled for him after the year or so he's had.
-
Leachyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
-
This lad Gill can bat! What a talent. Reminds me of watching sehwag a little
Need a couple more wickets before lunch before the ball goes soft
-
This lad Gill can bat! What a talent. Reminds me of watching sehwag a little
Need a couple more wickets before lunch before the ball goes soft
Gill has a much more classical technique than Sehwag did from what I've seen, definitely the same swagger and confidence to take the bowlers on though.
-
JIMMY
What a ball
-
And another!
-
Maybe another before lunch
-
Wow wow wow
-
This is outrageous from Jimmy.
-
GOAT
-
And a ripper from Bess, this is going to be over before I clock into work at this rate...
-
How did the umpire not give that
-
How did the umpire not give that
Yeah looked pretty clear cut that the ball deviated.
-
Think the batsman walking whilst the decision was being reviewed said it all.
-
Ashwin taking a battering, think he needs to have a word with @Ayrtek Cricket about an arm guard 😂
-
Bess bowling pies! The full toss might have worked in the first innings
-
Fantastic win by England.
6th away win in a row and the best by quite a margin. Most players contributed which is good but Joe Root clear MOM again
-
Good to see Leach getting back to his best, he really is a cracking bowler when he's match fit and firing. Much better spinner than Bess or Mooen IMO.
-
Yes absolutely and well handled by Root in the match.
Great win for us but we will need more contributions from the other batters next game.
Root can’t keep us his form.
I would like to see Archer make more of a contribution, our 2 best bowlers are Broad and Anderson still and I’d like to see them play together. It’s hard yards but we want to win
-
I would like to see Archer make more of a contribution
Archer who ripped the lid off the Indian first innings? Knocked over both openers and smashed their two best bats in the gloves, I don't know what more you could ask for from your opening quick! Really good spell before lunch today too.
England stuffing India away feels weird.
-
Root can't keep up this form forever but would you bet against him scoring another couple of centuries before this series is done? Not forgetting that Stokes and Sibley both got 80 odds first innings.
-
Well!! What a great start to 2021.
Confidence must be high in the team, and the team changes in the next test or two will show us whether cricket is fully embracing the squad mentality so common in other sports
-
Archer who ripped the lid off the Indian first innings? Knocked over both openers and smashed their two best bats in the gloves, I don't know what more you could ask for from your opening quick! Really good spell before lunch today too.
England stuffing India away feels weird.
Yes he bowled a few quick deliveries over the course of a five day match.Hes a non batter at test level by the looks of it so totally understand the rotation policy England are using....these first two tests are back to back I think.
We have options in the squad for just a bowling position, I'd like to see out best two play to see if we can get another victory or a draw in the next match.
The quickest would be Stone if he's fit and there is also Woakes as options.
I'm gonna guess England have Jimmy in for the second test and Broad could be in so its who you leave out.
I've not seen myself any deterioration in Broad over the last year or so and Anderson has been superb this match.
Certainly options available to us, if we are going to win or draw this series we need more contributions I reckon than a few quick deliveries.
-
3rd test is a Day nighter isn't it? So wouldn't surprise me to see Anderson rested for the second test and Broad come in.
-
Yeah, given a three day break between tests, I wouldn't be surprised if Broad came in for Jimmy and possibly even Stone for Archer
-
Only change I'd make is Broad for Anderson then Jos obviously moving aside for Foakes.
-
This is where resting/rotating bowlers gets mighty difficult.
Anderson broke thru today with a superb spell. Ideally you want to rotate once the series is safe but that's not going to happen here.
Tough call on the management this next team selection
-
England have set a decent precedent recently with rotating Jimmy and broad, would any of us left broad out for the second test in Sri Lanka? No but they did
I think silverwood has been very clear with the pair of them about when they will play, no matter how well the other does
Archer bowled really well this game imo, he will bowl worse and take a hat full, he probably earned wickets at the other end. His spell to Ashwin today could easily have got a wicket and he got kohli and pujara uncomfortable and hit them both first innings in a slowish deck
-
Yes absolutely and well handled by Root in the match.
Great win for us but we will need more contributions from the other batters next game.
Root can’t keep us his form.
I would like to see Archer make more of a contribution, our 2 best bowlers are Broad and Anderson still and I’d like to see them play together. It’s hard yards but we want to win
As we've said before Archer has a better record than either Anderson or Broad at the equivalent stage of their careers. He certainly contributed to this win, its not easy bowling quick in India. Are you expecting him to blast India out on these featherbeds?
The rotation between Anderson and Broad is to PREVENT injury rather than anything to do with performance deterioration. They are both superbly fit but at their age the body takes longer to heal. And this is when you are most susceptible to injury. Thats not my opinion thats human biology.
I like the variety in this attack, I wouldnt consider Broad and Anderson together unless there is a real green seamers wicket and that is very unlikely.
-
For me the only change is Broad for Anderson. Then Foakes for Jos as he goes home obviously. Which is a shame as I thought there was a marked improvement in has keeping.
You have to consider just a 2 day gap between tests and then the possibility of Root losing the toss and us bowling on a road like this wicket was for the 1st 2 days of the test.
-
Have to agree on Buttler's keeping, I've been a critic in the past but he's been impressive the last few tests.
-
What's wrong with the SG ball?
Has ENG team made any comments about the SG ball's rate of deterioration?
-
Nothing wrong with the ball but India been sore losers. :D
And if there is an issue with the ball, havent heard england say anything.
Plus they should speak to the manufacturer, not moan on live tv lol
-
Havnt heard England mention anything about the ball, from watching thou it seems to be one you would throw a dog after 20 overs.
Can't recall seeing one go that quickly before.
-
Have to agree on Buttler's keeping, I've been a critic in the past but he's been impressive the last few tests.
Yes agree, he's been good in this match. Whilst a few of us are fans of Foakes and want him in, you just had to look at Pants keeping style to see we have gone batsman-keeper, they have gone batsman-part time keeper.
-
Yes agree, he's been good in this match. Whilst a few of us are fans of Foakes and want him in, you just had to look at Pants keeping style to see we have gone batsman-keeper, they have gone batsman-part time keeper.
Pant is still very young, could be a solid keeper with more experience but he's let them down a lot with the gloves. Buttler has looked much improved but Foakes is still the superior keeping option. What will be interesting is how Foakes batting is looking.
-
What's wrong with the SG ball?
Has ENG team made any comments about the SG ball's rate of deterioration?
The rate of deterioration was extraordinary given we are talking about a test match standard ball. I have never come across one of them so I can't comment from any personal experience, but no way should balls be falling apart after 40 overs.
Just as the Kookaburra has been mandated for all while ball games on the basis that it is the best ball for disappearing to all parts of the ground, I think the Dukes ball should be mandated for all red ball games to at least give some balance between bat and ball
-
Some old-timers I know sing praises of REaders.
-
The readers seems to be the predominant ball in English league cricket although I think this is at least in part due to the price point the Readers balls can be pitched at given the volume of manufacture as part of Kookaburra.
For this season we are using a Readers for half of the season and Dukes for half to enable a comparison
-
Well played England!
Winning the toss and batting beautifully for 2 days on road like pitch made sure India was out of the game. Root just killed the spirit of the Indian team.
India's best bet was a big matching 1st innings total which did not happen due to good bowling and ok batting effort. After that English had to do the basics right.
Hopefully, toss won't play such an important role going fwd but that's always been the case in India.
-
Just as the Kookaburra has been mandated for all while ball games on the basis that it is the best ball for disappearing to all parts of the ground, I think the Dukes ball should be mandated for all red ball games to at least give some balance between bat and ball
Wouldn't balance between bat and ball make for more one-day cricket too?
I'm sure a lot of it's to do with financial muscle.
-
Wouldn't balance between bat and ball make for more one-day cricket too?
I'm sure a lot of it's to do with financial muscle.
Depends if you think the one day game wherever it is played is more of an even contest because generally pitches will be flatter for high scoring games. That side of the one day game has proved to be more and more popular...and that is where the money generates from.
With test matches the advantage of home conditions seems to be greater than ever...winning away as India did in OZ is such a big deal because it doesn't happen that often. Before 2012 it was a considerable time before we won a series in India.
This must of been thought of and deemed not possible but if you wanted to even up test matches maybe the away sides ball is used.
In England v Australia it's the kook ball
India in England the SG ball
Us away in Oz the duke ball/whatever manufacturer we use nowadays.
I think I read Pointing was a big advocate of using an English ball in the Sheffield Shield games.
I suspect long term ball contracts make this idea not possible.
-
Dukes balls are actually made in India now. They are only finished in Walthamstow.
-
Does Bess keep his place? Or does Ali come in?
-
Wouldn't balance between bat and ball make for more one-day cricket too?
I'm sure a lot of it's to do with financial muscle.
One day cricket is now modelled on a straight shoot out to see who can score the most runs. It seems successful both in terms of audiences and commercial and broadcasting revenues.
I still prefer test cricket to to the other formats but there is no doubt that play can be dull with a Kookaburra on a flat pitch with attritional batting.
-
One day cricket is now modelled on a straight shoot out to see who can score the most runs. It seems successful both in terms of audiences and commercial and broadcasting revenues.
I still prefer test cricket to to the other formats but there is no doubt that play can be dull with a Kookaburra on a flat pitch with attritional batting.
One-day cricket always was a shoot-out to see who could score mosr runs. What else could it be? Runs just used to be a bit more difficult to come by.
-
One-day cricket always was a shoot-out to see who could score mosr runs. What else could it be? Runs just used to be a bit more difficult to come by.
Runs used to be harder to come by but the changes have been to the favour of the batsman to encourage bigger scores
-
Bigger scores don't necessarily make for more exciting cricket, in my opinion.
I'm not sure using a batsman-friendly ball was ever part of deliberate plan. But I accept there would be a strong reluctance to change to a more bowler-friendly one now.
-
The readers seems to be the predominant ball in English league cricket although I think this is at least in part due to the price point the Readers balls can be pitched at given the volume of manufacture as part of Kookaburra.
For this season we are using a Readers for half of the season and Dukes for half to enable a comparison
We get a supply of Dukes and readers balls for the season but we always opt for Dukes in most situations and exclusively in league games. The readers might get used for new ball practise at nets or the occasional cup game on an absolute road were using a dukes would be a waste. We found the dukes balls provide more movement in the air and off the pitch and maintains this for a longer period which makes for much more interesting cricket and an even match between bat and ball. The readers in comparison is slightly more durable over the course of an innings (it will look in better nick at the end hence why a good for rock hard flat or very dry tracks) but stops swinging very quickly and the seam appears to be much flatter and less proud than the dukes.
-
^ That's great info @TownGrazz !
-
The deviation in this thread is certainly more Dukes than Kookaburra!
-
Aside from the ball issues. :) expect a better ball for the second test match or Kholi may combust.
How do we line up? Foakes for Buttler he is rested for the remainer of the tour, Anderson probably rested although def in my team as he's our best bowler someone else can rest.
Perhaps just Bess or Ali to come in. Without any form behind him, or at least improved form from before, Ali has his test record to fall back on only.
I'm sure England want to get him in, but enough to displace Bess? I'm not convinced that would improve the team.
Bess seems to have a bit of character about him, I'm going with apart from the keeper, one change in the seamers as Broad comes in.
-
I read this morning that Bess bowled 18 full tosses in that 1st Test - the most by any frontline bowler since records began
But he still took 5 wickets and scored 50 odd runs. Whatever he lacks in talent he certainly makes up for in mental strength and competitiveness.
-
Bess' inconsistency has almost been a strength this winter. The combination of some real dross along with some great balls has made it difficult for batsmen to settle into a rhythm against him and he has been more effective so far in the first innings when the pitch has been less helpful. Conversely, Leech's consistency has been great in the second innings when pitches have offered assistance and you are asking for the bowler to keep hitting the right areas, but his predictability has made him cannon-fodder when the pitch is playing well. As a pair they have managed to compliment each other well.
Jimmy and Broad will properly both play in the 3rd test with the pink ball in use which means Jimmy should sit this one out. Otherwise, Foakes for Butler is the only change I would make.
-
Bess' inconsistency has almost been a strength this winter. The combination of some real dross along with some great balls has made it difficult for batsmen to settle into a rhythm against him and he has been more effective so far in the first innings when the pitch has been less helpful. Conversely, Leech's consistency has been great in the second innings when pitches have offered assistance and you are asking for the bowler to keep hitting the right areas, but his predictability has made him cannon-fodder when the pitch is playing well. As a pair they have managed to compliment each other well.
Jimmy and Broad will properly both play in the 3rd test with the pink ball in use which means Jimmy should sit this one out. Otherwise, Foakes for Butler is the only change I would make.
Well summed up. Bess you sense would benefit most from Patel who is out there now, and the potential with bat we know England like-whether it’s a keeping position or a spinner.
-
Archer out of the second test. If Broad and Anderson were favourite to play together in the third test this coming match might need a rethink now
If Jimmy sits out the option of Woakes or extra pace of Stone.
-
Would love to see Stone given a go, could be a real asset in Aus with more experience and he was a handful in SL when he last got a chance.
-
Damn...not what you want to hear regarding Archer, hopefully the elbow is just a minor niggle. I guess it solves the awkward R&R situation with Anderson on the back of his great performance though.
So for me, the only changes will be:
Foakes in for Buttler
Broad in for Archer
-
I think im right in saying Archer has had an elbow problem previously, which is a worry. Lets hope this is something minor
I'd go like for like and bring in Stone and Broad for Archer and Anderson. In a 17 Test year I dont want the two veterans playing back to back Tests on these hard dustbowls. Although Woakes would strengthen the tail and we have a 1-0 lead I wouldn't pick him without 2 top class spinners to rely on.
Im still in two minds about Bess, he does bowl some absolute filth that shouldn't be anywhere near Test level. But hes picking up wickets. And it doesn't seem to bother him too much. I thought his head might drop but he actually seems to front up and never afraid to be thrown the ball. Its handy having Root to bowl some tidy overs if Bess struggles.
-
Lots of sadly predictable comments on the BBC article about Archer's commitment, skill and pace. Wonder what it could be about him that means he's singled out for vitriol from these idiots 🤔
-
Unfortunately Facebook/BBC website comments you can put all sorts of rubbish on and I'm convinced half of them simply to do it wind up other people with no respect for other people's views.
Thankfully the incidents of that on this website are few and far between, we have had some wind up merchants in the past.
Archer might be an easy target for some whereas a home grown English player would not get the same comments, we have seen that over the years unfortunately.
I don't personally like Archer much and I don't think he will be playing test cricket in 2 years time but lots on here think the opposite and healthy discussion/disagreement is good.
Archer has natural pace and skill and he doesn't appear on the surface to be busting a gut-that doesn't mean he isn't it's just the way it appears.
For those of us that watched Gower bat it's much the same thing, it came easy and then he would nick off to the slips on 20, he's didn't 'do' nets and looked bored some of the time.
Archer and the rest of the England players Re far fitter than the old players and you don't get in the test side without putting the work in.
-
Broad, Foakes and Stone will be in the 11
-
I think im right in saying Archer has had an elbow problem previously, which is a worry. Lets hope this is something minor
I'd go like for like and bring in Stone and Broad for Archer and Anderson. In a 17 Test year I dont want the two veterans playing back to back Tests on these hard dustbowls. Although Woakes would strengthen the tail and we have a 1-0 lead I wouldn't pick him without 2 top class spinners to rely on.
Im still in two minds about Bess, he does bowl some absolute filth that shouldn't be anywhere near Test level. But hes picking up wickets. And it doesn't seem to bother him too much. I thought his head might drop but he actually seems to front up and never afraid to be thrown the ball. Its handy having Root to bowl some tidy overs if Bess struggles.
He had a stress fracture last season. ECB press release said this injury isn't related.
Big decision to make. Stone is the natural replacement but, without knowing what the pitch is like, there may be a reluctance to play Stone and Bess as two of the four front line bowlers. Losing the toss and bowling first on a pitch like the first test would be a real test.
Interesting to see if the pitch is any different this time around
-
England name 12-man squad for the second #INDvENG Test: Root (c), Sibley, Burns, Lawrence, Stokes, Pope, Foakes, Moeen, Leach, Woakes, Stone, Broad
James Anderson, Jos Buttler, Dom Bess and Jofra Archer are out.
-
Ali for Bess?? No thanks...
-
Although I wonder if they've gone with Ali over Bess as they intend to play Stone and want the experience of mo
I totally disagree with that.. they've dropped a spinner who's taking wickets and picked someone with an awful record over the last 2/3 years and who was dropped for being (No Swearing Please), and hasn't proven himself...
-
Although I wonder if they've gone with Ali over Bess as they intend to play Stone and want the experience of mo
I totally disagree with that.. they've dropped a spinner who's taking wickets and picked someone with an awful record over the last 2/3 years and who was dropped for being (No Swearing Please), and hasn't proven himself...
Sibley
Burns
Ali
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Broad
Stone
-
Sibley
Burns
Ali
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Broad
Stone
4 seamers is overkill surely. Especially considering how impotent Woakes has looked without the Dukes in the past.
Ali for Bess?? No thanks...
18 full tosses. You'd be lucky to stay in the team I play for if you bowled that many!
Unfortunately we haven't got great spinners to choose from. Theres lots to like about Bess but hes far from the finished article
One thing none of us know if how they are bowling in training. They must feel that Mo is looking half decent
-
Have to say I was surprised how much chat there was in the press about Bess getting the yips on the final day and looking like he needed a break, I didn't see much of his bowling that day but seemed hard to believe after the first innings. Big shame but clearly was some truth in it! If they feel he's bowling well then Moeen's not a bad selection to back up Leach in the subcontinent. Archer a big miss for me, his opening spell in the first innings was a big moment in the game. Excited to see how Stone goes if he gets the nod over Woakes though.
-
Sibley
Burns
Ali
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Broad
Stone
6 bowling options seem overkill, especially if you're making the extremely bold call of thinking that Moeen can do a job at 3 against Bumrah and Ishant.
-
6 bowling options seem overkill, especially if you're making the extremely bold call of thinking that Moeen can do a job at 3 against Bumrah and Ishant.
He can’t do any worse than Lawrence at 3... 😂
England need to take 20 wickets again. Stone has the inexperience so will they play both Ali and Woakes to cover this....?
-
Glad that the selectors and skipper have made the changes with so much cricket. Ceiling will always be high with Moeen, you just don't know what you're going to get. Hope we see Stone over Woakes as well.
-
He can’t do any worse than Lawrence at 3... 😂
England need to take 20 wickets again. Stone has the inexperience so will they play both Ali and Woakes to cover this....?
Nope, still overkill. You cant put Woakes in to bowl overs if someone else messes up. Thats why you have two spinners plus Root. Plus his record suggests he is less than reliable himself
-
Ali for Bess?? No thanks...
Clearly they are worried about losing the toss on a flat one and Bess not giving Root any control whatsoever. The Indians definitely adjusted to playing him in the 2nd innings and Kohli played it very easily on a 5th day wicket.
At some point Bess's luck will run out and he will go 0 for lots.
This is by no means me saying Mo will do any better though.
I think they will go Broad for Anderson, Stone for Archer, Mo for Bess.
As raw as Stone is you need someone with that extra pace and bit of difference.
-
Judging by the photos of the pitch that got published yesterday I don't think there's any danger of it being a flat one! Predictable after India losing the first really. Vital toss.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Et9WkiVVoAE1J8a?format=jpg&name=large)
-
England have wanted Moeen in for a while, I'm sure he would of played in SL.
I think @alexhilly1492 is right, the selectors without Butler might think we need coverage with some experience.
Mo has a decent record but no recent form, can't say it's clear cut whether Bess or Ali is the best bet.
I would of stuck with Bess myself, he is nowhere near as good as Leach, but has something about him.
-
I was reading that this second pitch has a different soil underneath that is much more prone to crumbling, making it much more of a typical sub continent Bunsen from day one.
-
I was reading that this second pitch has a different soil underneath that is much more prone to crumbling, making it much more of a typical sub continent Bunsen from day one.
Pitches on the same square with different soil. Now that I would like to hear more about. Have you got a link to the article?
-
He can’t do any worse than Lawrence at 3... 😂
England need to take 20 wickets again. Stone has the inexperience so will they play both Ali and Woakes to cover this....?
I feel like he can and might do worse 😅 love Mo but when did he last play any FC cricket?
-
When in doubt, just revert to type and produce a rank turner.
-
Just reading Roots comments on Bess...an opportunity to get better....clearly they are not going to say he's not good enough but that is what that says to me.
He's got potential and I'm not convinced with Ali having no form, in fact poor form, behind him recently Mo would do any better.
He's does have the experience and test wickets behind him thou, and he could bat 3 if Lawrence is left out.
Tough call, I guess that is the level we are at now thou with the test team.
-
Don't think Bess is the long term solution as an out and out spin bowler but certainly a lot of all-round potential. Amar Virdi or Dan Moriarty both look better bowling prospects than Bess and Leach is definitely a better bowler here and now.
-
Just reading Roots comments on Bess...an opportunity to get better....clearly they are not going to say he's not good enough but that is what that says to me.
He's got potential and I'm not convinced with Ali having no form, in fact poor form, behind him recently Mo would do any better.
He's does have the experience and test wickets behind him thou, and he could bat 3 if Lawrence is left out.
Tough call, I guess that is the level we are at now thou with the test team.
What makes you think Lawrence could be left out mate? Or you talking more in the future? All indications seem to be its Woakes/Stone for Archer (competing for one spot was the indications given). Moeen for Bess. Foakes for Buttler. Broad for Anderson.
-
Don't think Bess is the long term solution as an out and out spin bowler but certainly a lot of all-round potential. Amar Virdi or Dan Moriarty both look better bowling prospects than Bess and Leach is definitely a better bowler here and now.
I'd be interested to know how much you've actually seen Virdi and Moriarty bowl.
-
What makes you think Lawrence could be left out mate? Or you talking more in the future? All indications seem to be its Woakes/Stone for Archer (competing for one spot was the indications given). Moeen for Bess. Foakes for Buttler. Broad for Anderson.
I don't think they will, but Ali's inclusion does mean they could potentially leave out a batsman, especially if Woakes plays.
-
I'd go -
Burns
Sibley
Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Ali (if they're dropping Bess)
Broad
Stone
Leach
I'd go Stone as the aggressor and a direct replacement for Archer, as they didn't look comfortable against him. Think 2 seamers with Stokes is enough, plus 2 spinners and Root too. Plenty of options and Lawrence is gaining experience.
-
What makes you think Lawrence could be left out mate? Or you talking more in the future? All indications seem to be its Woakes/Stone for Archer (competing for one spot was the indications given). Moeen for Bess. Foakes for Buttler. Broad for Anderson.
I don't think Lawrence would be left out of the final 11. Ali has batted 3 before for us in the sub continent so it is an option available.
I think Lawrence has a bit of a tough gig at 3 but he like Sibley and Pope are the ones I hope we stick with.
I'm not convicted Ali playing strengthens the team because of his poor form and lack of recent games for us but he is a versatile cricketer and does give options.
I hope Ali if he plays does well, I have a feeling India will go after him in the next match and try and hit him out of the attack.
-
I don't think they will, but Ali's inclusion does mean they could potentially leave out a batsman, especially if Woakes plays.
Yes, that would be the option
-
I'd be interested to know how much you've actually seen Virdi and Moriarty bowl.
Fair bit of Virdi from following county cricket and seeing his name talked about a lot. Obviously much less of Moriarty due to him making his FC debut this year but he's made a very exciting start. Not living anywhere near Surrey I'm also basing my opinion on informed commentary from pundits whose opinions I respect.
Both, IMO, look to be tidier bowlers than Bess which I think is a pretty key characteristic of a finger spinner. Of course Bess could develop that but they're all of a similar age so you'd expect that Virdi and Moriarty will develop as bowlers too.
-
Virdi bowls alot of filth aswell between some magic balls. Does turn the ball significantly though.
-
Bess doesn't look very natural to me. Like I said before, he looks like he's been made to run through cones and go in straight lines. But Moeen Ali does too.
-
Early night, alarm set; so let’s see what the morrow brings 🙂
-
I'd go -
Burns
Sibley
Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Ali (if they're dropping Bess)
Broad
Stone
Leach
I'd go Stone as the aggressor and a direct replacement for Archer, as they didn't look comfortable against him. Think 2 seamers with Stokes is enough, plus 2 spinners and Root too. Plenty of options and Lawrence is gaining experience.
Looks like you have it right, Ali is playing and it's between Woakes and Stone for the last place. I think Woakes is very underrated and never lets us down.
At some point thou you have to see what the others are like in a match and they are all important. So if we do go with Stone we can at least see how he goes, he definatley has pace that's for sure.
I hope Ali does well, I hope not but I can see the Indian batsmen targeting him after so long out of the test side.
Anyway, looking forward to it.
-
Early night, alarm set; so let’s see what the morrow brings 🙂
Yep. Luck with the toss is needed.
-
Woakes averages 80 in India. And 50 in SA, NZ and Aus.
22 at home with the Dukes
I dont think he's underrated. Hes just not the same bowler without that ball. If he was we'd have a 2nd world class all rounder in the squad.
-
Woakes averages 80 in India. And 50 in SA, NZ and Aus.
22 at home with the Dukes
I dont think he's underrated. Hes just not the same bowler without that ball. If he was we'd have a 2nd world class all rounder in the squad.
He's underrated. Broad averages 55 in India. Not great is it? Stats only tell one side of a player and you can pick out the relevant ones to suit your point of view.
As an allround cricketer, not a world class one, Woakes is decent, and underrated.
-
He's underrated. Broad averages 55 in India. Not great is it? Stats only tell one side of a player and you can pick out the relevant ones to suit your point of view.
As an allround cricketer, not a world class one, Woakes is decent, and underrated.
Well of course Ive used a relevant stat. An irrelevant stat wouldnt make much sense would it.
Accepted that Broads record in Asia isnt great either. But For Woakes its the rule. For Broad its the exception.
This isn't my point of view. These are statistic based facts. Those averages aren't good enough thus far away from home. At home hes superb no arguing
And even aside from stats - ive been on two overseas tours that hes played on and hes looked toothless with the ball both times. Craig Overton was an improvement in the last Ashes!
-
Woakes is a much improved bowler compared to even a few years ago, suspect he wouldn't let England down if given a game. Would rather see Stone in though for the express pace option and to get him some more test experience.
-
Woakes is a much improved bowler compared to even a few years ago, suspect he wouldn't let England down if given a game. Would rather see Stone in though for the express pace option and to get him some more test experience.
He is indeed. I think we will go with Stone thou at some point these guys have to play and he does have pace.
If the Indian Express report is correct, this pitch will have more carry for the fast bowlers. I find that a bit hard to believe but let’s see.
-
My hope is that Ali has come in for Bess to provide more experience to allow Stone to play. My fear is that Woakes and Ali both play in a defensive more to add more batting
-
I don't think dropping Bess was harsh - it was warranted given how erratic he was in that test match, even if he had taken wickets.
However, the way he was dropped seems pretty harsh to me. The statement I read from Root felt pretty damning. Surely a 'just go and build on your confidence and your accuracy' to Bess, and a 'Moeen offers us something different on this pitch and Bess needs a rest' to the public would have sufficed?
Just feels a bit heavy-handed. However, I am so excited for the game later!
Really hope Moeen comes back a hero.
-
Look at that pitch! India win the toss/test
-
Stone!!!
The extra skill Foakes brings could be the difference on a pitch like this.
-
Really encouraging to see this from Stone. Pace, aggression and good carry so far.
-
This is gonna be a slog
-
How is Moeen doing compared to Bess?
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
-
DONE HIIIIIM.
Distill that angry/confused look on Kohli's face down and inject it into my veins 😂
-
What a ball what a ball
-
How is Moeen doing compared to Bess?
About the same, a mix of jaffas & dross
-
Erratic with the odd good ball from Bess, sorry moeen, this morning...
If mo gets 0 runs we should have stuck
Interestingly, both got kohli with one that was slightly wider, drifted and spun back to off stump
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuFddiJXYAITRUD?format=jpg&name=medium)
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuFddiJXYAITRUD?format=jpg&name=medium)
This is what I'm doing when clean bowled in future
-
Waking up to see Virat's refused to walk for a bowled is gold!
-
Crazy that this pitch is playing like this before lunch on day 1. We're going to need the equivalent to a Broad 8-15 to win this test!
-
Crazy that this pitch is playing like this before lunch on day 1. We're going to need the equivalent to a Broad 8-15 to win this test!
Another vintage Root performance would do nicely as well.
-
Brilliant, so good for Mo and to see the arragant Kohli get a duck. Unbelievable that he refused to walk. :o
The pitch is interesting. If this was a day one pitch in the county championship they'd be getting a points deduction. Makes for a great game though.
-
Brilliant, so good for Mo and to see the arragant Kohli get a duck. Unbelievable that he refused to walk. :o
The pitch is interesting. If this was a day one pitch in the county championship they'd be getting a points deduction. Makes for a great game though.
Only if you're Somerset!
-
Happy to see England showed some courage and brains in picking Stone over Woakes. Hes a potential wicket taker in all conditions. Id love him to go to Australia later this year but he needs a few games before then.
I watched his debut at Lords and he was rapid at times, quickest bowler I can remember seeing after Brett Lee.
-
Only if you're Somerset!
Looks like a bit more pace in this wicket but dust bombs off straight on the first day this is going to be very tough for us
Good early wicket each from Stone and Mo, that should settle them down.
-
Another couple wickets here and India could be in bother..
140 odd - 3 and rohit has 100 of them isn't exactly dominant (except Rohit who looks like he's on a different pitch)
-
Don’t see this match going 5 days - looks a poor wicket already.
300-350 might be a decent first innings score
-
Another couple wickets here and India could be in bother..
140 odd - 3 and rohit has 100 of them isn't exactly dominant (except Rohit who looks like he's on a different pitch)
Yeah we are doing alright, Broad doing a good job of just bowling straight to tie up some runs.
-
Moeen looks toothless
Really don't get that change from Bess, at least he had a knack of taking wickets
Get stone on for a burst
-
This already feels like we're going to be way behind
-
No control from any of the bowlers
180 up in 50 overs
-
Moeen looks toothless
Really don't get that change from Bess, at least he had a knack of taking wickets
Get stone on for a burst
I think Leach and Moeen bowl at different pace, Leach looks to get it into the pitch a bit harder, similar to Panesar. Mo a bit more floaty and slower
-
Rohit seems like someone that could’ve achieved so much more in Test cricket. Nearly 34 years old only played 30 odd Tests. When he’s on he’s better than Kohli for my money...
-
No control from any of the bowlers
180 up in 50 overs
Helped by Rohit starting like a train...
But if root maths but take that out and we've contained them pretty well
Need 2/3 quick now though
-
Helped by Rohit starting like a train...
But if root maths but take that out and we've contained them pretty well
Need 2/3 quick now though
No doubt rohit has played well and taken the attack. Been a good knock to watch
-
I don't think England have bowled as badly as the run rate would perhaps imply. It does feel like the pitch has calmed and slowed down a bit so apart from the odd one that really bites and does a bit too much to actually get a wicket, the rest of the time it's relatively straight forward to bat on.
-
No control from any of the bowlers
180 up in 50 overs
I think that's very harsh on Leach. He's going at a run less than the team and bowled almost half the overs.
-
Leach has bowled very well from what I have seen.
And Stone is doing alright as well.
Whether it’s Bess or Moeen it’s keeping the run rate down from that end.
-
As predicted... Moeen is not keeping the runs down or taking wickets...
-
Not really understanding the logic of dropping Bess fit Ali who has played very little cricket in the last 12 months and very little red ball cricket in longer than that.
Stone looks a decent prospect, not seem much of him she got people jumping around with a 58 over call and looks tidy.
One thing for sure this won’t be a draw this test, England need to knock India over for 300-325 ideally
-
It’s great to have test cricket back on the TV.
First time I’ve seen Stone bowl; looks good, very good.
Also first time Ive seen Rohit and Rahane bat...unfortunately they also look good,
very good!
Tough, hard, skilful test cricket. You can’t beat it!
-
It might be that its a pre-emptive move to get Ali in.
Although Bess' results have been decent the performance hasnt been, and you have to feel there is a chance he could be annihilated at some point. I did suggest this might happen before the series started. Whether you keep Bess in until the annihilation happens is a tricky one.
Not sure which way I would have gone for this match. Neither look quite good enough at the moment.
Cracking spell of reverse here by Stone! Threatening the set batsman
-
Day 1 and this game feels like it's gone already
-
Not looking great is it....
Another bit of bat watching. Rahane, CEAT stickers Sunridges etching on the edges.
-
Not looking great is it....
Another bit of bat watching. Rahane, CEAT stickers Sunridges etching on the edges.
Rohit also with SS sticker on his handle
-
As predicted... Moeen is not keeping the runs down or taking wickets...
He has bowled absolute garbage, and as you say totally predictable going at nearly 5 an over on this wicket is just not good enough. Hasn't bowled well in test matches for quite a while which makes his selection baffling.
-
On this type of pitch spinners need to bowl a bit quicker and just hit a length over and over. Root bowling a bit quicker is giving them the most trouble.
-
He has bowled absolute garbage, and as you say totally predictable going at nearly 5 an over on this wicket is just not good enough. Hasn't bowled well in test matches for quite a while which makes his selection baffling.
Yeah I think a few of us did wonder if actually changing the other spinner would make much of a difference.
They seem fairly similar to me, both leak runs but can get wickets. I actually think Bess has potential and will get better, Roots comments on his selection basically we're go away and get better.
I thought that odd at the time because Moeen is much the same,but he does have test wickets behind him.
Also....you're quite right, back into a test match with not much cricket behind him is a tough ask, I don't know the answer but is that fair on the player himself.
Difficult.
-
Anyone else think we need to get rid of the toss in international cricket? Make teams prepare proper wickets, this is dross. 7 overs in and it was already deteriorating 🤬
-
Rohit seems like someone that could’ve achieved so much more in Test cricket. Nearly 34 years old only played 30 odd Tests. When he’s on he’s better than Kohli for my money...
Difference is Rohit can only do it at home
-
There was little or no protest about the selection of Moeen Ali yesterday.
-
That looked out to me, nothing behind the line
-
Difference is Rohit can only do it at home
Note I said ‘could’ve achieved’
-
Thats a disgraceful decision.
-
Cheated out of a wicket there. Convenient there was no other angle available wasn’t it.
I thought umpires were supposed to be unbiased. Obviously not in India.
-
Stumping looked inconclusive to me, don’t think you can claim cheating or being 100% certain on the evidence available
-
That’s shocking! They’ve not even checked the referral properly and he’s actually gloved it
-
Gloved it. That is absolutely appalling
-
That latest one on Rahane though is awful officiating.
Justice now though!
-
Least it didn’t cost them too much! Justice served
This pitch is turning square
-
Well! Looks like the ball hit the glove after it had passed the bat.....which is what England reviewed for!!
Shocking by third umpire!
-
Stumping looked inconclusive to me, don’t think you can claim cheating or being 100% certain on the evidence available
Clearly nothing behind the line. Not sure what you are watching.
Poor protocols followed for that bat-pad claim aswell. You have to question how much education these Indian umpires have had.
-
Clearly nothing behind the line. Not sure what you are watching.
Poor protocols followed for that bat-pad claim aswell. You have to question how much education these Indian umpires have had.
Same as everyone else and you are the only person I know that is claiming it as definite
-
is Ashwin batting in left handed pads?
-
Same as everyone else and you are the only person I know that is claiming it as definite
No sane human can watch that stumping and see something grounded behind the line
-
Yeah for sure
-
Same as everyone else and you are the only person I know that is claiming it as definite
Definitely out stumped
Clearly nothing behind the line
-
Why has the review not been given back to England. It’s a error from the umpire
-
Clearly nothing behind the line. Not sure what you are watching.
Poor protocols followed for that bat-pad claim aswell. You have to question how much education these Indian umpires have had.
I guess all the umpires have same education under ICC
-
Why has the review not been given back to England. It’s a error from the umpire
It has!
-
It has!
Bit of common sense.
Anything above 300 looks a match winning score already. Pant’s going to play some shots
-
I guess all the umpires have same education under ICC
These guys must be on Shastris payroll then!
Horrendous umpiring. 3rd umpire didn't follow the correct protocol and watch the whole video.
And Root clearly asked the on field umpire if the glove was checked and he lied to him and nodded his head!
Home umpires were abolished for this sort of thing. Whos seen the image of Michael Holding kicking the stumps down?
-
Why are they showing the bowling speeds in kph??
-
This and a few other incidents - why move away from neutral umpires?!
And that stumping was also clearly out.
-
This and a few other incidents - why move away from neutral umpires?!
And that stumping was also clearly out.
Theres a global pandemic on.
Although as noted by Jason Holder recently - if the players can travel surely the umpires can aswell
-
Why are they showing the bowling speeds in kph??
Indian feed, believe that's standard in much of the world?
-
Surely on a British channel they could change it
-
Surely on a British channel they could change it
Imagine they're contractually obliged to use the Indian feed. Probably more hassle than it's worth given how long they had to put arrangements in place as well.
-
On another note Foakes is showing why he is the best of the lot, don't think he's put a foot wrong
-
This forum has damaged my brain, took me about a second to look at Foakes replacement keeping pad to clock it wasn't GN, realise it was M&H and assume it's Bracey's. Have to accept badger status now I think.
-
On another note Foakes is showing why he is the best of the lot, don't think he's put a foot wrong
Agree, he has looked quality. Levels above anyone else in international cricket for my money.
-
Not a terrible day for England but certainly up against it. Cant help the toss I guess.
Whats worrying is that Root looks considerably better as an off spinner than both Bess and Mo!
Impressed with Stone and Foakes, two guys brought in today.
-
Surely on a British channel they could change it
Why are they showing the bowling speeds in kph??
Most places use KPH. ICC and Sky show it in both.
And it could be changed but I don’t see C4 being that worried about it to get there own dedicated graphics feed just to change the speeds...
-
This forum has damaged my brain, took me about a second to look at Foakes replacement keeping pad to clock it wasn't GN, realise it was M&H and assume it's Bracey's. Have to accept badger status now I think.
I found it interesting that Foakes was using last seasons GN Powerbow gloves which now aren't available. I realise that as a keeper you obviously have a favourite pair of gloves etc.... but I would have thought GN would have sent him this years new gloves and wanted him to be wearing those.
-
On another note Foakes is showing why he is the best of the lot, don't think he's put a foot wrong
Its weird - you notice him before the ball, because he starts from such a weird position, but you never notice his glovework itself. It just....happens....
-
It’s great to watch a good keeper, the difficult takes he makes look easy. I think it can lift the team as well knowing you have someone sharp it breeds confidence.
The stumping that was not given was quick work.
-
Gray Nics will be rushing another set of pads to him ready for tomorrow.
-
Anyone else think we need to get rid of the toss in international cricket? Make teams prepare proper wickets, this is dross. 7 overs in and it was already deteriorating 🤬
Yes, I completely agree. This sort of wickets isn't fit for first class cricket and would result in points deductions if you prepared something this bad in the CC.
Root looked the pick of our spinners. I think he generally under bowls himself. India look ahead of par with both Leach and Ali under performing but waited an age to have a go himself.
-
Kholi reportedly unhappy with the wicket(and ball) for test 1. So we do have a bit of a different wicket. More carry and less red than the last one.
But there were dust bombs halfway into day 1 and it looks like it will completely go quite soon. They clearly must get Ashwin into the game and it looks like he will def be in this one :)
I thought Root and Leach bowled well and very impressed with Stone also. We stuck at it and with some better umpiring would of got a couple more.
300 looks like it's a good score, and we will struggle with the bat here, I guess home advantage and a pitch that breaks up is a fine line.
But Kholi appears to have got his way and will have best use of the wicket.
-
Leach bowled pretty well.
-
Gray Nics will be rushing another set of pads to him ready for tomorrow.
Or they'll be disinfecting Johnny's kit
-
The way I always look at pitches like this is what would of happened if we had won the toss? Would we be discussing it as much if we were 300-6?
They prepared a pitch to best suit them and they are at home, I don't mind that. They wanted to take the toss out of the equation to a certain extent too because with it turning from ball 1 you also give yourself a chance bowling 1st and I think that's also what India wanted.
Is it any different than a green seamer we might prepare at Headingley? That is what playing test cricket away from home is all about.
-
The way I always look at pitches like this is what would of happened if we had won the toss? Would we be discussing it as much if we were 300-6?
They prepared a pitch to best suit them and they are at home, I don't mind that. They wanted to take the toss out of the equation to a certain extent too because with it turning from ball 1 you also give yourself a chance bowling 1st and I think that's also what India wanted.
Is it any different than a green seamer we might prepare at Headingley? That is what playing test cricket away from home is all about.
Pretty sure Rohit won't be complaining! 😆
-
Don't think we can complain too much about the pitch, we are away you expect it to a certain degree, this one does look like it will completely 'go' fairly soon :)
Rohit does play a few shots and he might of expected this pitch so came out determined to play all of them. He's a very stylish player when in full flow.
I'd like to see us be positive when we bat and not get caught by close In fielders. If we go down then at least be positive, not wait for an unplayable bomb.
Away wins are getting harder to get but I think we are playing pretty well so far. The problem of a good second spinner has dogged us for quite a few years, and is still there.
-
Don't think we can complain too much about the pitch, we are away you expect it to a certain degree, this one does look like it will completely 'go' fairly soon :)
Rohit does play a few shots and he might of expected this pitch so came out determined to play all of them. He's a very stylish player when in full flow.
I'd like to see us be positive when we bat and not get caught by close In fielders. If we go down then at least be positive, not wait for an unplayable bomb.
Away wins are getting harder to get but I think we are playing pretty well so far. The problem of a good second spinner has dogged us for quite a few years, and is still there.
I agree, i think Rohit showed the way to go, be positive if you can. Of course not easy against Ashwin in particular. Kuldeep is also an excellent bowler but hasnt had much cricket for quite a while. I know nothing about Axar Patel other than what ive seen in T20.
Sitting in wont be easy on this track and you have to think that there will be a delivery with your name on it eventually.
Got to get these last few wickets first without conceding many more!
-
I am not sure if the pitch can be claimed to be made per Kohli specifications assuming batting first. Since if Ind lose the toss, it would also go against them given we have seen how well Root and co are tackling spinners. From what I read, the Ind team wanted to have a pitch that doesn't rely so heavily on the toss like in the 1st test e.g., so basically two options left for the curator
1) Provide batters good pitch to bat even after day 2 which could lead to a dull draw, or alternatively
2) Give bowlers much more chance from day 1 itself.
Option 2) can be satisfied either by seaming wicket or spinning wicket from day 1 and depending on home country, you can guess how that would go.
For tests anywhere in the world, that is fair enough request IMO which can provide both teams a more level playing field irrespective of toss.
As to whether the actual pitch served satisfies that requirement is a different thing and that would be in hands/skill of the curator.
-
England will be fine. Knock over the remaining Indians in the first 20 minutes, then let Sir Joe Root score another 150, followed by a quick fire 200 from Sir Ben Stokes. Simples.
-
It will be interesting to see what Kohli has planned for Root in terms of field placement because they surely have to cut off his sweep shot.
-
Which sweep? Normal, paddle, slog, reverse?
-
A really enjoyable day of cricket.
-
300-6 after day 1, with one batsman smashing a quality 100, and another outdone by a Jaffa. The pitch is absolutely fine and made for fantastic viewing.
-
It will be interesting to see what Kohli has planned for Root in terms of field placement because they surely have to cut off his sweep shot.
Root is up there with the best sweepers we have had, the last reddish pitch had turn but it was slow. This one has got turn from day 1 and bounce, and the top is starting to go.
I don't want to put a downer on the forum but its going to be far more difficult I think, there are footholds already starting to mark up.
Should he get another big score here we can have a virtual pub chat about our best ever player of spin.
I'd like to see some significant contributions from some others-we are going to need it. No miracles from Lawrence expected but Burns,Stokes and the keeper and Pope.
Dont know what we can expect from Ali after so long out. He has been a good player of the turning ball.
It's been great viewing and personally I'd rather see us play in these conditions than 500 plays 600 on a flat deck.
-
It's been great viewing and personally I'd rather see us play in these conditions than 500 plays 600 on a flat deck.
It'd be even nicer to play on a decent, balanced track though!
-
It'd be even nicer to play on a decent, balanced track though!
Hmmm I dunno, we are away....I think myself an away test series win is worth far more than a home one.
I saw an interview with Cook the other day, he was asked about his best moments in his career, both were away.
Ashes win in Australia
India win away.
I don't know if it's harder to win away now than before, it does sometimes feel like that.
The great West Indies side of the 80's didn't lose home or away series for 10 years or around there, with every different type of conditions, imagine a side doing that today....
-
It'd be even nicer to play on a decent, balanced track though!
300-6 is a decent, balanced score...
-
300-6 is a decent, balanced score...
Depends how you interpret a decent balanced track.
If it some pace carry and movement early, and spin comes in as the game wears on this don't look like its it to me.
It was going thru the top on the afternoon of day 1.
Not complaining but this track will break up very quickly and it will go sideways. Hang on to our hats I think it will be carnage .
Exciting but carnage :)
-
https://twitter.com/craddock_cmail/status/1360451924961546247
-
300-6 is a decent, balanced score...
India on top! Ball turning square from the middle of the pitch on day 1. Would take 300-6 any day
Going to take a special knock to top Rohit’s and get a lead
-
Root is up there with the best sweepers we have had, the last reddish pitch had turn but it was slow. This one has got turn from day 1 and bounce, and the top is starting to go.
Up there with the best? Surely he’s sitting pretty at the top of the pile. Hardly anyone in world cricket full stop has played the sweep as well as he does, let alone England players.
-
Up there with the best? Surely he’s sitting pretty at the top of the pile. Hardly anyone in world cricket full stop has played the sweep as well as he does, let alone England players.
Sweeping conventional off spinners is one thing - but doing that vs leg spin will be a huge challenge.
-
Ben Foakes is so good. Not even a contest.
-
Fantastic from England.
-
Sigh
-
Eurgh
-
India on top! Ball turning square from the middle of the pitch on day 1. Would take 300-6 any day
Going to take a special knock to top Rohit’s and get a lead
Tough to see them getting 200 from here but they bat deep
Ashwin ripping it a mile
-
Horror show
-
That was on the cards for Lawrence, he was battling but done at short leg.
This is very tough for any batsman let alone an inexperienced one
-
Someone’s got to play some shots here. Easier said then done but Sam Curran would be perfect in this situation
-
I wonder if we can make India bat again!
-
We bowled 96 overs without an extra, must be some sort of record.
-
We’ve done really well to keep their score down but it’s very tough batting conditions.
I don’t think we will but if we could scrape to 250 somehow....
-
Stokes missed a straight ball. Can’t see them getting 100 here
-
It pitched middle and leg and hit off-turned a fair bit
-
Several questions...
Have we been rubbish?
Is it the pitch?
It looks like win toss win match.. will icc get involved?
-
They have bowled very well. The top went yesterday it’s impossible for it not to deteriorate more as the game goes on.
Definite turn and bounce...plus a few dust bombs....very very difficult to bat on.
It might get a bit easier as the ball gets softer I dunno
It’s tough
-
Speaking to my dad yesterday just before tea, saying it's not a good pitch, but both teams have it,
It's not a 5 day wicket so should be looked at imo
However it is what it is and if we wanna win in India we need to win batting second!
-
Foakes doing a good job of showing why so many want him in the England team, bit of grit at 7 plus unbelievably good keeping skills.
-
Don’t mind this wicket at all. Real test of a batsman
Usually very few complaints about green top’s so why do people moan about sub continent wickets
Personally think the toss should be scrapped and give the away team first use
-
Don’t mind this wicket at all. Real test of a batsman
Usually very few complaints about green top’s so why do people moan about sub continent wickets
Personally think the toss should be scrapped and give the away team first use
I think someone made a good point on the TMS commentary, a green top does get easier to bat on at some point. Not convinced this wicket will get much easier at any point.
-
Start riding out the tough period then lose one. Ah.
-
I think someone made a good point on the TMS commentary, a green top does get easier to bat on at some point. Not convinced this wicket will get much easier at any point.
Does it really though. Seen plenty of 2.5 days matches in England
I agree in NZ conditions flatten out completely and usually best to bat on days 4/5 if teams survive
-
Does it really though. Seen plenty of 2.5 days matches in England
I agree in NZ conditions flatten out completely and usually best to bat on days 4/5 if teams survive
I can't think of too many 2.5 day games in recent years? And obviously in English conditions there's swing to consider rather than the pitch, nothing you can do about that as a groundsman.
-
Does it really though. Seen plenty of 2.5 days matches in England
I agree in NZ conditions flatten out completely and usually best to bat on days 4/5 if teams survive
When were these 2.5 day games? Caddick 4fer vrs Windies?
That boundary countback rule is still getting to you
-
Cricket back on the box
So another early night to bed, didn't forget to set the alarm, watched a terrible start for England.....and on top of that I'm expected to remember its Valentines day?? Really??
-
Ah
-
Seems like Foakes is batting on a different pitch... he makes it seem so easy defending..
-
Might be worth Bairstow opening in the third Test and offering up the Rohit method...
-
Might be worth Bairstow opening in the third Test and offering up the Rohit method...
Possible although its at a different ground so might be better to bat on.
-
The difference between Pant and Foakes is unbelievable. Pant's like when you turn up on a Sunday and there's no keeper playing, so someone just gets roped into it. Foakes is on another planet and is again showing his batting is more than good enough at test level. Sadly, he'll be dropped as soon as Buttler's back. :(
-
Possible although its at a different ground so might be better to bat on.
It’s a day/night match but I think the home side will want another surface like this.
-
Whinging about the pitch is not a good look. Only stokes seemed to have gotten an “unplayable” ball, but even for him, the primary deception was in flight (it was full enough for him to smother the spin).
-
Yes I wonder how it'll play out.
The evening session has been a wicket fest in Aus and Eng. Will the pink ball do as much in India? I find it unlikely. Might be the best time to bat vrs spin though if theres any dew around
-
The difference between Pant and Foakes is unbelievable. Pant's like when you turn up on a Sunday and there's no keeper playing, so someone just gets roped into it. Foakes is on another planet and is again showing his batting is more than good enough at test level. Sadly, he'll be dropped as soon as Buttler's back. :(
Pant to be fair is a batter first it's hard to compare the two players as keepers.
Foakes thou is batting is good I've been watching it all, just what we need from a keeper-he seems to scrap for runs pretty well on difficult surfaces.
His keeping has been an absolute joy, we will lose this test but it's good to see a class Keeper in action
-
Steady tons from Foakes and Leach and its game on
-
Whinging about the pitch is not a good look. Only stokes seemed to have gotten an “unplayable” ball, but even for him, the primary deception was in flight (it was full enough for him to smother the spin).
Totally agree with this comment. It’s definitely not a 108-8 wicket
The pitch hasn’t got any one out by misbehaving. Wasn’t much whinging about the SL wickets when England were winning
Foakes looking absolute class.
-
I think Pant could easily ditch the gloves and bat at 4/5 in the long run. FC average 56 and Test average 45 isn’t too shabby.
Foakes is a beautiful gloveman to watch and hasn’t ever let the side down with the bat.
-
Pant to be fair is a batter first it's hard to compare the two players as keepers.
Foakes thou is batting is good I've been watching it all, just what we need from a keeper-he seems to scrap for runs pretty well on difficult surfaces.
His keeping has been an absolute joy, we will lose this test but it's good to see a class Keeper in action
Yes Pant is a batter first, but this is test cricket. Surely he shouldn't be that bad and be playing at that level?
-
Whinging about the pitch is not a good look. Only stokes seemed to have gotten an “unplayable” ball, but even for him, the primary deception was in flight (it was full enough for him to smother the spin).
Disagree, ground staff have a duty to provide a pitch that is useful for 5 days, it can deteriorate yes.
This was a day 5 pitch from the outset, you can't say this has been a good pitch, you can't say this has been an ok pitch, it's poor.
That being said.. we have been comfortably second best but the pitch is a shocker
Can you imagine how bad it'll be on day 5?? It should be like this in day 5 not day 2
-
Foakes is doing nothing for my “always pick Jos” standpoint with his flawless glove work & skilful batting.
-
Yes Pant is a batter first, but this is test cricket. Surely he shouldn't be that bad and be playing at that level?
He's very untidy....I'm not sure the options for the keeping position in India's current squad. I thought Gill kept as well.
India had Dhoni for ages....so it's kind of a continuation from that-Dhoni was better than Pant but again a bit untidy.
Keeping positions seem to be getting less important for teams. I'm just pleased Foakes is playing here - and he is scrapping for runs like a traditional keeper
He's playing pretty well all things considered
-
Foakes is doing nothing for my “always pick Jos” standpoint with his flawless glove work & skilful batting.
It's a good effort so far from Foakes, just managing to stay in and sneak some singles here and there.
-
I said it when Crawley got injured that Foakes would be a good choice at 3. I stand by that, he looks far better than Lawrence in these conditions.
-
Good catch but he's going the wrong way initially
-
It's a good effort so far from Foakes, just managing to stay in and sneak some singles here and there.
one of those annoying things is that having Butler just as a pure batsman may have been just what we need here - have a bit of a dip from number 3 - with Foakes at 7 providing the 'grit' if we get in the (No Swearing Please)!!! (as we have)
-
Haha. I think Pant must have been listening. Great catch! :o :o
-
think Pant was got good hands, but he is lazy in his footwork, untidy and doesn't look as 'fit/athletic' as he should/could be - not saying he is fat, but i would say like Bairstow is too 'bulky' to maximise his keeping athletism
-
Game over then
-
Why is Broad pulling out the massive sweep when Foakes is batting well and grinding out runs?
-
one of those annoying things is that having Butler just as a pure batsman may have been just what we need here - have a bit of a dip from number 3 - with Foakes at 7 providing the 'grit' if we get in the (No Swearing Please)!!! (as we have)
Yeah totally agree. I don't think myself it's impossible both play in the same side, Butler plays spin well and has improved significantly as a batter alone.
All over now thou, Foakes left high and dry-a good effort from him
-
As we like a hypothetical conversation on here:
What's Englands route to victory?
Roll India for <100 then bat better and pray?
-
As we like a hypothetical conversation on here:
What's Englands route to victory?
Roll India for <100 then bat better and pray?
There is none, if we’d followed on I’m not sure they’d have batted again.
-
As we like a hypothetical conversation on here:
What's Englands route to victory?
Roll India for <100 then bat better and pray?
Virat has a brain melt - declares now and instructs his bowlers to 'only bowl full tosses' for the entire of our second innings!!!
-
Why is Broad pulling out the massive sweep when Foakes is batting well and grinding out runs?
I think he’s a very selfish cricketer and doesn’t seem to care much about anyone else but himself, seems a regular thing when it comes to him having to bat time with someone set at the other end
-
moaning about wicket being not good is absolutely useless As toss was not fixed England could have won the toss and results could have been different. England picked up their spinners knowing the situation but simply they did not do their part so far. and India batted well.
all these players have tons of experience and should be able to play the bowler not depending on how wicket plays.
enjoy the match
-
all these players have tons of experience and should be able to play the bowler not depending on how wicket plays.
What an odd statement that is. Stokes could play 10000 tests and I’m not sure it helps him keep that out.
-
moaning about wicket being not good is absolutely useless As toss was not fixed England could have won the toss and results could have been different.
Bit of an odd statement that.
Of course the toss isn't fixed, but it's pretty much nailed on with this pitch that whoever wins the toss will win the game.
-
Moeen bowling dross
-
I said it when Crawley got injured that Foakes would be a good choice at 3. I stand by that, he looks far better than Lawrence in these conditions.
Agree with you there mate. Lawrence looks horrible. Even if Crawley is fit, I would still go with extra bowler for the next test. Crawley didn't had the best of time in Sri lanka and struggles against the spin
With Stokes hardly bowling these days, England are just bowling with 4 bowlers in these hot humid conditions. Just feel England are a bowler short.
My playing 11 for third test would be:
Burns
Sibley
Foakes
Root
Stokes
Pope
Ali
Bess
Archer
Leach
Anderson
-
I think he’s a very selfish cricketer and doesn’t seem to care much about anyone else but himself, seems a regular thing when it comes to him having to bat time with someone set at the other end
Not sure that selfish is a very apt description. Stupid definitely says it though, someone with his experience should have the nous to read the situation and realise that the longer they can drag the innings out the better.
-
Not sure that selfish is a very apt description. Stupid definitely says it though, someone with his experience should have the nous to read the situation and realise that the longer they can drag the innings out the better.
I agree to a point but there’s no way we’re batting out two days to save the game regardless.
-
Agree with you there mate. Lawrence looks horrible. Even if Crawley is fit, I would still go with extra bowler for the next test. Crawley didn't had the best of time in Sri lanka and struggles against the spin
With Stokes hardly bowling these days, England are just bowling with 4 bowlers in these hot humid conditions. Just feel England are a bowler short.
My playing 11 for third test would be:
Burns
Sibley
Foakes
Root
Stokes
Pope
Ali
Bess
Archer
Leach
Anderson
What is Foakes at 3 based on? Has he ever batted there in his FC career?
I cannot see how even someone extremely physically fit can keep wicket and then go out and bat at 3 in Indian conditions.
-
I agree to a point but there’s no way we’re batting out two days to save the game regardless.
No but stick around and see how much you can grind out, they picked up quite a few in extras alone while Foakes stuck about. Never know what's going to happen in the Indian innings.
-
I think he’s a very selfish cricketer and doesn’t seem to care much about anyone else but himself, seems a regular thing when it comes to him having to bat time with someone set at the other end
Jesus! Has he slept with your mrs or something? Selfish is a bit over the top
Broad has batted like that for years now, it cant be a shock to you. Sometimes it comes off sometimes it doesn't.
How Englands number 11 bats should be the least of anyones worries! Look at the guys above him! Or shall we discuss how Sibley offers England nothing with the ball?
-
I think bairstow will probably come in for Lawrence, straight swap at 3 and leave foakes further down the order, don’t really see the need for another bowler, root needs to bowl himself more especially in these conditions he’s a better option than Bess. Two front line seamers and spin bowlers with the addition of root and stokes should be enough
-
What is Foakes at 3 based on? Has he ever batted there in his FC career?
I cannot see how even someone extremely physically fit can keep wicket and then go out and bat at 3 in Indian conditions.
Well there's always a first for everything. Foakes showed class, temperament and confidence to do well in these conditions. He looked class apart from the rest.
If fitness is an issue for these modern day players then root can bat at 3 and foakes at 6.
-
The pitch hasn't changed at all, the toss has had absolutely no influence on this game at all. India have just bowled better and batted better.
-
The pitch hasn't changed at all, the toss has had absolutely no influence on this game at all. India have just bowled better and batted better.
🤦♂️
-
Jesus! Has he slept with your mrs or something? Selfish is a bit over the top
Broad has batted like that for years now, it cant be a shock to you. Sometimes it comes off sometimes it doesn't.
How Englands number 11 bats should be the least of anyones worries! Look at the guys above him! Or shall we discuss how Sibley offers England nothing with the ball?
So he wasn’t selfish/stupid with the decision he made based on the situation England are in ? Was there an attempt to try and bat for a bit ?
I’d be very interested to know when the last time him batting like that came off, don’t think your comparison between broad and sibley really works as broad is more than capable with the bat where as sibley is only a batter
-
Well there's always a first for everything. Foakes showed class, temperament and confidence to do well in these conditions. He looked class apart from the rest.
If fitness is an issue for these modern day players then root can bat at 3 and foakes at 6.
"There's a first for everything" is how we got Jason Roy opening in a test match in England against Cummins, Starc et al 😂
You want to move Root about on the back of him having scored nearly 700 runs in 3 tests batting at 4?
I don't think fitness is just an issue for 'modern players', keeping in India is physically and mentally taxing, can't expect anyone to come out potentially second ball of the innings after keeping all day and perform to their best. Look at Sangakkara, one of the all time greats, and his batting record when was keeping as opposed to when he wasn't.
If England want to give Lawrence time to go away and work on his game, Bairstow is a pretty obvious candidate. Part of me would like to see Bracey given a go but not sure about putting another leftie in the firing line against Ashwin.
-
Well there's always a first for everything. Foakes showed class, temperament and confidence to do well in these conditions. He looked class apart from the rest.
If fitness is an issue for these modern day players then root can bat at 3 and foakes at 6.
I think it was Sangakarra who explained why a WK can’t really bat at 3 due to needing time to refresh the mind as well as the body.
Why would anyone consider moving our best batter, who prefers to bat at 4?
We tried it in the Ashes, it didn’t work. Kohli never moves up to 3, Smith never moves up to 3....
-
The pitch hasn't changed at all, the toss has had absolutely no influence on this game at all. India have just bowled better and batted better.
🤥🤥🤐🤐🤐
-
I think bairstow will probably come in for Lawrence, straight swap at 3 and leave foakes further down the order, don’t really see the need for another bowler, root needs to bowl himself more especially in these conditions he’s a better option than Bess. Two front line seamers and spin bowlers with the addition of root and stokes should be enough
Root is a part timer bess is a specialist. Bess was the one who got rid of india's main batters in first innings in last test and didn't let india post a big score in still good batting third day pitch.
The reason root looked good in the first innings is because this is a rank turner from day 1. whereas the last one , things really didn't happen much until the 4th day.
Any spinner would feel bad missing out to bowl on a pitch like this.
the only reason i say go with extra bowler is cuz stokes just doesn't bowl enough these days, maybe if there's a physical issue with him or what don't know god knows.
-
how does that count as a shot played??????????????????????
-
how does that count as a shot played??????????????????????
Absolute (No Swearing Please), that's a shocking decision. Bat is about a foot behind his leg, quite clearly not playing a shot and padding it away.
-
So he wasn’t selfish/stupid with the decision he made based on the situation England are in ? Was there an attempt to try and bat for a bit ?
I’d be very interested to know when the last time him batting like that came off, don’t think your comparison between broad and sibley really works as broad is more than capable with the bat where as sibley is only a batter
Maybe slightly foolish but I think its just a reality that hes not good enough to survive playing steady cricket. Selfish and Stupid are far wide of the mark im afraid. Broads a very intelligent cricketer
Hes contributed quick runs plenty of times, the most memorable for me was at Melbourne in partnership with Cook.
My comparison with Sibley was of course an extreme example to make a mockery of your criticism. Sibley is picked to bat. Broad is picked to bowl. If you wish to criticise anyones batting start with the top 6 in this innings! Any runs that come from numbers 10 and 11 are very much bonus runs.
-
Absolute joke of a decision by the umpire/3rd umpire. How the hell can he say Rohit is playing a shot. Unbelieve, biast decision. Totally wrong!
-
Im much more concerned about the standard of umpiring than standard of pitch in this game!
-
Sibley is picked to bat. Broad is picked to bowl. If you wish to criticise anyones batting start with the top 6 in this innings! Any runs that come from numbers 10 and 11 are very much bonus runs.
Not sure I agree with this. Yes, you can't criticise Broad for not scoring runs but every player in the 11 should be making an effort to try and bat to the game situation.
Whether they do it successfully or not shouldn't be a reason to criticise a number 11, fair enough, but the application and attitude was really poor from Broad. If he'd got out trying to hold up an end with Foakes then no criticism warranted.
-
hitting middle stump!!!
-
"There's a first for everything" is how we got Jason Roy opening in a test match in England against Cummins, Starc et al 😂
You want to move Root about on the back of him having scored nearly 700 runs in 3 tests batting at 4?
I don't think fitness is just an issue for 'modern players', keeping in India is physically and mentally taxing, can't expect anyone to come out potentially second ball of the innings after keeping all day and perform to their best. Look at Sangakkara, one of the all time greats, and his batting record when was keeping as opposed to when he wasn't.
If England want to give Lawrence time to go away and work on his game, Bairstow is a pretty obvious candidate. Part of me would like to see Bracey given a go but not sure about putting another leftie in the firing line against Ashwin.
So you are saying superstition in batting position is key to success. Well, if you can bat, you should be able to bat at any position depending on the requirement of the team.
Well if you try something new and it fails doesn't mean you stop trying , do you?
Jason roy is a great white ball opener and england gave him a chance to open in tests thinking he will succeed but he didn't, so be it. trial/errors are part and parcel of anything.
Virendra sehwag always batted in the middle order for his domestic side, but india gave him a chance to open in tests and he flourished.
there are many other players who bat different positions at international level from their domestic side.
root batting at no 3 doesn't make him any lesser batsman than at no 4.
-
Im much more concerned about the standard of umpiring than standard of pitch in this game!
Yup. Pitch is absolutely fine, same for both sides. Umpiring on the other hand has been shocking.
-
Maybe slightly foolish but I think its just a reality that hes not good enough to survive playing steady cricket. Selfish and Stupid are far wide of the mark im afraid. Broads a very intelligent cricketer
Hes contributed quick runs plenty of times, the most memorable for me was at Melbourne in partnership with Cook.
My comparison with Sibley was of course an extreme example to make a mockery of your criticism. Sibley is picked to bat. Broad is picked to bowl. If you wish to criticise anyones batting start with the top 6 in this innings! Any runs that come from numbers 10 and 11 are very much bonus runs.
Can’t really be a mockery of criticism, broad has batting stats to prove he’s capable where as sibley definitely doesn’t have bowling stats to go off, but that’s fine everyone is allowed an opinion on the matter
-
Funnily enough they had a shot of the possible stumping from the other side on that one!
India have been by far the better team here but would be nice to have a fair chance
-
So you are saying superstition in batting position is key to success. Well, if you can bat, you should be able to bat at any position depending on the requirement of the team.
Well if you try something new and it fails doesn't mean you stop trying , do you?
Jason roy is a great white ball opener and england gave him a chance to open in tests thinking he will succeed but he didn't, so be it. trial/errors are part and parcel of anything.
Virendra sehwag always batted in the middle order for his domestic side, but india gave him a chance to open in tests and he flourished.
there are many other players who bat different positions at international level from their domestic side.
root batting at no 3 doesn't make him any lesser batsman than at no 4.
"Superstition" is not the difference between 3 and 4, don't be daft. For starters, on average you'll be coming in against fresher bowlers and a newer ball. Root likes to score quickly and keep things ticking over, much harder against a new ball that is doing more.
Secondly, test cricket is a hugely mental game. You couldn't even begin to count the number of players with great technique who haven't been able to succeed in test cricket because they didn't have the mental side of their game mastered. If Root's mentality is better at 4, which statistics suggest is true, then that's where he should bat.
As for Roy, he might have done well as an opener in Australia in the style of Warner but that's not where he was selected is it? If you couldn't tell that Roy was going to struggle opening the batting in tests in England then you shouldn't be an England selector. Even in white ball where there's less movement on the ball, he nicks through the slips a lot.
-
Not sure I agree with this. Yes, you can't criticise Broad for not scoring runs but every player in the 11 should be making an effort to try and bat to the game situation.
Whether they do it successfully or not shouldn't be a reason to criticise a number 11, fair enough, but the application and attitude was really poor from Broad. If he'd got out trying to hold up an end with Foakes then no criticism warranted.
0 slogging is worth the same as 0 blocking.
Sibley was widely praised for his gritty 87 in the first test, whilst someone on here called Pants innings of 92 stupid and lucky!
I have very little interest in the methods someone uses to get their runs. Especially tailenders. You either score them or you don't.
Burns batting like Tufnell or Lawrence looking like a frightened schoolboy would be higher up my agenda if I was England coach
-
Can’t really be a mockery of criticism, broad has batting stats to prove he’s capable where as sibley definitely doesn’t have bowling stats to go off, but that’s fine everyone is allowed an opinion on the matter
So Broad should be criticised for being better than Sibley at 2 disciplines But not consistently producing in the second of those?
Seems unduly harsh to me
-
0 slogging is worth the same as 0 blocking.
Well that's just not true, it depends on what you allow the bloke at the other end to get. Are you forgetting Leach's famous 1*? I didn't see anyone calling for his head for slow scoring or not getting enough runs.
-
0 slogging is worth the same as 0 blocking.
not if you bat time and let the other batter score runs - what would have happened if Leach had got one and got out slogging at Headingley when Stokes won the game?
-
Well that's just not true, it depends on what you allow the bloke at the other end to get. Are you forgetting Leach's famous 1*? I didn't see anyone calling for his head for slow scoring or not getting enough runs.
Very true, he was playing the situation and did it well.
The conditions and match situation here though are very different. Was Foakes likely to score 285* while Broad gritted it out for 5 sessions at the other end? The game was long gone by the time Broad was padding up
-
Broad should of done everything possible to support the batsman who was in.
That's his job for the team
-
Very true, he was playing the situation and did it well.
The conditions and match situation here though are very different. Was Foakes likely to score 285* while Broad gritted it out for 5 sessions at the other end? The game was long gone by the time Broad was padding up
Leach was last man in with 76 needed to win in the second innings. It was pretty unlikely they'd get that total as well given how the Aussies were bowling.
My criticism of Broad isn't of his ability, it's his application. As an absolute minimum I'd expect professional sportsmen to apply themselves. Being behind in the game (in the first innings especially) isn't an excuse to just chuck your wicket away.
-
Leach was last man in with 76 needed to win in the second innings. It was pretty unlikely they'd get that total as well given how the Aussies were bowling.
My criticism of Broad isn't of his ability, it's his application. As an absolute minimum I'd expect professional sportsmen to apply themselves. Being behind in the game (in the first innings especially) isn't an excuse to just chuck your wicket away.
76 is slightly different to 200 on a turning track.
I cant believe England have been skittled for 130 and their number 11s batting approach is attracting criticism 😂
Only on CBF!
-
standard Broad, i wonder if someone had done as badly a thought out piece of fielding as the way he got out when he was bowling what Broad's reaction would have been?
i expect a lot of shouting and a double tea pot!!
-
standard Broad, i wonder if someone had done as badly a thought out piece of fielding as the way he got out when he was bowling what Broad's reaction would have been?
i expect a lot of shouting and a double tea pot!!
Probably yeah, but thats part of what makes him the bowler he is. Anderson is the same when a catch goes down.
We'll miss them when they're gone!
-
76 is slightly different to 200 on a turning track.
I cant believe England have been skittled for 130 and their number 11s batting approach is attracting criticism 😂
Only on CBF!
They didn't need to get 200 though, did they? It's the first innings, the approach should have been to try and keep going and allow Foakes to keep batting as long as possible.
Criticism of the batsmen is a different issue and you're welcome to start a discussion on that too if you'd like 😂
-
Probably yeah, but thats part of what makes him the bowler he is. Anderson is the same when a catch goes down.
We'll miss them when they're gone!
that is true - we will miss them - just wonder if they really need to be like that to be at their best - not sure you help your team by being like that - i play with two guys that are the same about catches and misfields - except when you pick them up for making mistakes - they have a right strop
always get the impression with those sort of people that it is one rule for them and one for another
-
or am i just being a standard batsman that thinks all bowlers are moaning, whinging, grumpy buggers :D :D :D :D :D :D
-
They didn't need to get 200 though, did they? It's the first innings, the approach should have been to try and keep going and allow Foakes to keep batting as long as possible.
Criticism of the batsmen is a different issue and you're welcome to start a discussion on that too if you'd like 😂
You cant seriously think that anything Broad could do in that situation would alter the result of the match?
If there was a realistic chance of even getting a draw I might be inclined to agree with you. But it was already gone.
Id rather not start to criticise the actual batsman other than to say they haven't been good enough in this match.
Bairstow and Crawley in for Burns and Lawrence? I do feel a bit for Lawrence in that hes been thrown in at 3, and certainly wouldnt rule him out long term. Burns looks like he hasnt batted for 2 years
-
I imagine the same traits that make them a bit stroppy on the pitch are also the traits that drive them to do the hours of training they've put in to develop their skills. Cannot imagine it's much fun constantly bowling at a set of stumps by yourself as Broad did when he was changing his run up.
-
that is true - we will miss them - just wonder if they really need to be like that to be at their best - not sure you help your team by being like that - i play with two guys that are the same about catches and misfields - except when you pick them up for making mistakes - they have a right strop
always get the impression with those sort of people that it is one rule for them and one for another
I have no problem with intensity on the field as long as its not personal. These 2 guys just want to win, dont think there is any agenda other than that. Unless you are KP and feel victimised 😂
-
You cant seriously think that anything Broad could do in that situation would alter the result of the match?
I don't expect him to change the game but as a fan I'd like to imagine that a professional cricketer would at least try.
I can't reconcile having a huge wipe at one on middle stump from the last ball of an over, with a set batsman at the other end who has just tried to keep strike for the next over, with the idea that Broad was really doing his best. As you've said, he's an intelligent cricketer, so he should be playing smarter cricket.
-
With Crawley, have they confirmed his injury is expected to be good to go by the next test?
-
Im sure if a result was achievable Broad would have stuck it out longer. In this particular case have a dash - why not.
I thought Crawley was only missing the first 2 matches, maybe Im wrong
-
For me India are using home advantage better have better spinners and batsman more accustom to the conditions bit like us at home with the swinging ball.
No blame just they asked for this kind of wicket and got it like what we would do at home.
-
Why not - it's a matter of opinion but personally I think a professional sportsman should be trying their best regardless of the match situation.
Yeah, I'd heard two games was the initial assessment but hadn't seen any updates to suggest he was back training or anything.
-
Slightly changing tact but I'm no Archer fan generally, his is just a bowling position-he can't bat at test level.
Can honestly say I've been very impressed with Stone, great action, good pace and a big heart.
He's been excellent
-
Awful day for England. Tough to expect anything else though, especially when you’re playing against 12.
The 3rd umpire is an absolute disgrace and should never officiate in international cricket ever again.
-
Awful day for England. Tough to expect anything else though, especially when you’re playing against 12.
The 3rd umpire is an absolute disgrace and should never officiate in international cricket ever again.
Although I agree the officiating has been shocking, am I right in thinking the 3rd umpire didn’t look at the LBW there as the on-field umpire confirmed the batsman was playing a shot? If that’s the case, not really the 3rd umpires fault on this occasion! May I stress I’m not defending his overall performance though!
-
a professional sportsman should be trying their best regardless of the match situation.
Any sportsman.
-
Burns is now averaging about the same as Jennings and Stoneman and all those others.
-
That incident with Rohit not playing a shot was absolutely comical, the officiating has been awful. But that’s cricket. India have just been better than us, and foakes was the only English batsman that properly applied himself. Doesn’t matter what the officials do if you consistently have 42* as the highest individual score.
-
My thoughts on the test so far -
Kohli got the pitch he wanted. Took the toss out of the equation, backed his spinners to out bowl ours and his batters to do the same on a turning track. And he has been proved correct.
I don't think I can say for certain we would have won (or even drawn) this test if we'd had won the toss. We simply don't play the turning ball well enough (Root apart) or have enough control with the ball.
I think Broad has had a shocker all test. I am not necessarily talking his batting though. He was absolutely inoculous with the ball, and out bowled by a lad in his 2nd test.
We have a major off spinner issue, you simply can't go at 4.5 an over on a rank turner, even if you take 4 wickets.
We need to at the very least show some fight and find some methods of playing the major turn because pitches will be like this going forwards.
For the 3rd test, is Bairstow available? If so surely he comes in for Lawrence, and Jimmy for Broad.
Finally I hope something is said (although it won't) about the umpiring and 3rd umpiring in this test because its been shocking.
-
Agree that India backed themselves to outdo England on both bowling and batting front on a pitch like this even if they'd lost the toss. 1st test was more a lottery of who won the toss as was too docile on the first couple of days. Expect Ahmedabad will play similar.
-
I think Atherton's point has been valid; not been easy to bat on right from the start, and I don't think it's deteriorating as bad as some suggest it has. Just not good enough.
As for umpires Jason Holder made a point that there's no reason why neutral umpires on the elite ICC panel can't be brought back in, particularly if countries have large travelling parties of players/staff; no reason why they can't too providing there's no border/travel issues
-
As usual quality from Dobell
English attitudes towards turning pitches need to change https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ind-vs-eng-2nd-test-chennai-2nd-day-english-attitudes-towards-turning-pitches-need-to-change-1251770 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ind-vs-eng-2nd-test-chennai-2nd-day-english-attitudes-towards-turning-pitches-need-to-change-1251770)
-
There are obviously bigger issues, and I rarely do "why oh why" on selection imatters, but I believe Pope should have batted at no.3.
Why oh why do we play so much championship cricket in April and September? (The answer is, of course, because T20 is where the money is.)
-
On a positive note, Foakes has been brilliant
-
On a positive note, Foakes has been brilliant
Apart from the missed stumping?
-
Apart from the missed stumping?
If he'd taken it, it would have been an absolute ripper so I'm not holding that against him too much. Also he kept for a day and a bit, batted longer than anyone in England's innings and then kept again. Bit of mental and physical fatigue is understandable.
-
A missed stumping that hardly any keeper would have taken. Yes.
And definitely looked our most composed and assured batsman.
-
I can remember JB getting given a very hard time for missing something similar. But don't get me wrong; I like Ben Foakes.
-
If Buttler or Bairstow had missed that stumping there would have been plenty piping up that Foakes would have taken it.
-
I can remember JB getting given a very hard time for missing something similar. But don't get me wrong; I like Ben Foakes.
Did Bairstow get bowled through the gate for 2 and drop other catches and miss other stumpings too?
As a keeper myself, that is one of, if not the hardest stumping effort. Batsman is blinding you, you’re unsighted right until the last minute and then add in a huge amount of turn and the ball keeping low as well, and you’ve got a half chance at best.
As Jimbo said, I think you can forgive foakes after keeping all day in the first innings and not giving any extras at all, and then batting for ages and getting a red inker before having to keep again with no break in horrible conditions.
-
I just said I liked Ben Foakes. I am a Surrey member.
-
If Buttler or Bairstow had missed that stumping there would have been plenty piping up that Foakes would have taken it.
Because they miss other chances, let through more extras etc etc.
Foakes, other than that one chance, has been absolutely faultless. No extras at all in the first innings plus a stumping and a incorrectly turned down second. Batted longest and best out of all of our batsmen, and then had to keep again without a break.
-
If Buttler or Bairstow had missed that stumping there would have been plenty piping up that Foakes would have taken it.
For sure.
-
Foakes was interviewed after the game and said himself is is lacking game matches and has been working on keeping all day with Bruce French to get to that match sharpness.
That tells you the sort of level he is at and wants to get to, I think he has been superb this match on a difficult track to keep on, it's going far more and far quicker than the red soil pitch used for the first game.
There's always lots of comments on here about the best batsman playing who are also keepers. But Foakes again has done as much as he can with the bat so far, he played really well and should of had a few more runs with the tail.
So far I have seen two big positives from this match, the keeping and batting and Olly Stone.
The areas causing us a problem are the same ones, the second spinners going for too many runs and too many full tosses and drag downs.
-
Very disappointing missed stumping by Foakes, especially as he's so good. You just expect him to take those in his sleep and as a result the bar is set high for him. I really hope that he stays in the team, just gives you confidence. Sadly he's likely to be back to bench warming once Butler returns.
-
I have always said Foakes is not far off being good enough to be picked for his batting alone. I have often seen him dig Surrey out of a hole. He gets 'tough runs'. England have picked worse batsmen. And he is the best 'keeper.
Besides... I was starting to worry that the Stokes/Foakes/Woakes thing might never happen.
-
I think there's an argument to be made that Foakes' ability to get ugly runs may actually bring a bit of balance to the England batting order. Root, Stokes, Pope are not naturally ugly run scorers. Phenomenal batsmen but their natural game isn't ugly, grinding accumulation. Just gives something a little different to Buttler, who to be fair to him has definitely worked hard on his game.
-
Plain and simple, Foakes has to play
-
It would be harsh to say he's an ugly batsman. He's not.
-
Butler has definatley improved that's for sure, he's been consistent over the last couple of years and I don't see him playing a one day game in a test match, he's done the hardest of all to adapt his natural game to the batting we need.
Foakes probably will return to the bench once Jos is back, that's the way it's been so far.
I sat down the other day and worked out who I think are our best 7 batsmen on recent form and the potential for the future.
The 7th position was the traditional keepers position but must contribute runs consistently, so he's as a batsman as well.
I had both Butler and Foakes in my 7 batsmen team.
-
If Buttler or Bairstow had missed that stumping there would have been plenty piping up that Foakes would have taken it.
and if Johnny/Jos had top scored and looked our best batsman there would have been plenty saying they are our best batsman/keeper and we need their 'allround' skills over Foakes who is a weaker batsman........
-
Crawley opens, Pope 3, Buttler 6, Foakes 7?
-
and if Johnny/Jos had top scored and looked our best batsman there would have been plenty saying they are our best batsman/keeper and we need their 'allround' skills over Foakes who is a weaker batsman........
He possibly is. But not by much.
-
Crawley opens, Pope 3, Buttler 6, Foakes 7?
With Buttler rested, why not that line up with Lawrence at 6? Give him a chance to ease himself into test cricket in a role he's played before. Looked good against SL at 5.
-
Crawley opens, Pope 3, Buttler 6, Foakes 7?
definitely worth trying - Pope is technically good enough to bat 3
-
He possibly is. But not by much.
First class average is better than Buttler, about 4 worse than Bairstow but test average is better than both albeit over a smaller sample size. He's certainly no mug with the bat.
-
He possibly is. But not by much.
i'm not saying he is - it is just that is the arguement that some use to say why he shouldn't play
i think both Butler and Foakes should play - it is just who bats at 3 that is the issue
it is not fair on Lawrence to have to, but he has to as there seems to be no other option without Crawley, but even then you have to only play 2 of Pope, Butler and Foakes - and it is clear who the selectors/management want - which is no easy decision and i can see why they normally choose Pope and Butler
-
definitely worth trying - Pope is technically good enough to bat 3
Yes in my top 7 who I think are the best from recent form and potential
Pope has to move to 3 otherwise the other batsman are too high. Technically I think he can
Edit: ruling out Root batting 3
-
I think we all know what Buttler brings with the bat. And it's not necessarily something that can be measured by looking at his average in county cricket.
I don't think Pope batting at 6 was ever viewed as a long-term strategy.
I think that Lawrence had as much, or more, right to be 'shielded' (for development purposes) in this series as Pope.
-
Maybe it was about continuity?
-
I think it has a lot to do with Pope returning from injury, probably more so than any other factor.
-
What a weird dismissal
-
Jesus, Foakes is just so good. That's outstanding.
-
God tier keeping
-
God tier keeping
Must give you so much confidence as a bowler knowing that he can pull off magic like that.
-
And again! Outstanding from both Foakes and Leach, top bowling and keeping to match.
-
Shocking review 😂
-
Harbhajjan Singh + Paul Adams = Dan Lawrence
-
Harbhajjan Singh + Paul Adams = Dan Lawrence
:D :D
-
Just woke up, I’ve missed something a big good from Foakes?
Perhaps we have the worlds best keeper playing for us.
-
Just woke up, I’ve missed something a big good from Foakes?
Perhaps we have the worlds best keeper playing for us.
Several very good things 😅
-
Can’t be a bad pitch if Ashwin’s got a 50
-
Foakes up to the stumps to broad - looks bloody class
-
Looks good
St.Foakes b.Broad
Maybe :)
-
Just woke up, I’ve missed something a big good from Foakes?
Perhaps we have the worlds best keeper playing for us.
Here is his two stumpings, the second one is pure porn!
https://mobile.twitter.com/vitu_e/status/1361222284887867392?s=12
-
Moeen might be one of the most frustrating bowlers I've ever watched. Seems to alternate between rippers and complete filth more than just about anyone I can think of.
-
Jinxed it. He’s dropped Ashwin but very tough chance
-
Quite a big deflection , would he of tried to run that down with the keeper back...
It created something at least
-
Moeen might be one of the most frustrating bowlers I've ever watched. Seems to alternate between rippers and complete filth more than just about anyone I can think of.
Couldn't agree more. He also hasn't bowled enough around the wicket to the RH batters for me
-
Moeen might be one of the most frustrating bowlers I've ever watched. Seems to alternate between rippers and complete filth more than just about anyone I can think of.
Yes... that two in two overs mixed with some very average stuff
-
You know you're crap when Ishant can do that...
-
I have to say, as impressive as foakes has been, that last missed stumping chance that Ashwin gave was a poor miss.
-
To those who were moaning about the wicket - Ashwin’s got a 100 on it and India have doubled what England scored in their first innings.
Time to stop whinging about the pitch and look back to poor batting in the first innings
-
It is a poor wicket.. it shouldn't turn that much on day one
But as I've always said... India have been good England have been rubbish
-
Really wish Stone was given the new ball Siraj is a bunny yet we are feeding him spin
-
I have a pretty decent idea who the MOTM might be.
-
Declare now.. 50 ISH mins at us tonight.. enough time to have us 4/5 down.. extra day off
-
Number 11 getting runs now on this “poor wicket”
-
1% of the way there
-
Number 11 getting runs now on this “poor wicket”
To be fair, Siraj was having a slog. Ashwin's innings shows what's possible though. Hoping for another hundred from Root to keep the calendar year runs record dream alive.
-
I think we need to see a contribution here from Burns especially.
Crawley and Bairstow available next game so there could be a change or two
-
This is a ridiculous amount of dust for day three, especially from the "good" part of the pitch
-
I don't think we should make too much of the pitch myself. The top went on day 1 and its the harder ball that is doing it.
India have had to prepare a pitch to get them and Ashwin back in the series.
Home advantage counts for a lot and they have used it.
Whether the top should go halfway thru day 1 yes that's a fair argument. But we are away and this pitch is like some of the old ones we used to encounter in the 80's which went from very early on.
-
My feelings on this game so far:
Pitch.. poor
England.. worse
Umpiring.. worse still
India... Brilliant
-
My feelings on this game so far:
Pitch.. poor
England.. worse
Umpiring.. worse still
India... Brilliant
All is not lost. I didn’t think after one test we would be 1-0 up.
The umpiring has been awful agree with that.
The next test is under lights - it may be a chance for our seamers.
We need Anderson back and I would keep Stone in also
-
Yeah, i agree with that
Stone seems to be very similar to broad in style but 5-10mph quicker
I'd also go back to Bess I don't see how Ali is an improvement and Bess is the future, they show it with batsmen so should bowlers
This innings now could be make or break in the series, we roll over and we're in trouble, we fight and out up a score (anything within 200) and it's ok ISH
-
Sibley gone. You simply cannot play spin with that technique... look at the angle the bat comes down.
-
Where's that come from! What a whack from Lawrence
-
I mean, they're taking it on, ha
-
I've not seen lots of this test, but from what I've seen, the Indian spinners seem to be "hitting the pitch" - basically bowling quicker than we did and firing it in, meaning that when it turns it does it faster so harder to play. Moeen especially just seemed to be lobbing it up there.
-
These two showing what application can do! Not an unplayable wicket at all
-
Number 11 getting runs now on this “poor wicket”
if you are going that way then Siraj is better than Pant and Pujara put together :D :D :D expect to see Siraj in the top 5 next test (same sort of sarcastic style comment)
the wicket is not great - england have batted badly on it - india have batted well on it
-
Another poor shot. Turning a off spinner to leg
-
Time for England to try and find two new openers.
-
I've had doubts about Sibley and Burns before. That said, not sure anyone would do too well opening up against high quality spin on this deck. Looks super tough!
-
Time for England to try and find two new openers.
Wow!
Name some...
-
Wow!
Name some...
Ummmmmm....
Strauss and Cook?
-
Blimey. About time we had some 3rd umpire luck. How is that not out??
-
Ummmmmm....
Strauss and Cook?
At least try and answer the question
There isn't any other openers as good, and certainly not many who would play quality spin better
-
Kohli throwing his toys out of the pram. Ah.
-
That was just a little bit plumb!
3-1 now..
-
At least try and answer the question
There isn't any other openers as good, and certainly not many who would play quality spin better
I think short term in Indian conditions it might not be the worst idea to rest Burns. He's in horrible nick and this isn't doing him any good. Crawley in if he's fit, Bairstow a left field very short term option, a la Jennings in SL.
Sibley got 80 odd opening last test, has earned the right to keep his spot I think. Every time he's been challenged he's gone away and improved, England need to back him.
In terms of opening options going forward, Lammonby is nowhere near ready but looks a prospect. Maybe they go to one of the old pros in the CC, as the Aussies did with Chris Rogers?
-
Kohli throwing his toys out of the pram. Ah.
Don't blame him. That looked stone dead - don't know how DRS determined umpire's call on impact.
-
I think short term in Indian conditions it might not be the worst idea to rest Burns. He's in horrible nick and this isn't doing him any good. Crawley in if he's fit, Bairstow a left field very short term option, a la Jennings in SL.
Sibley got 80 odd opening last test, has earned the right to keep his spot I think. Every time he's been challenged he's gone away and improved, England need to back him.
In terms of opening options going forward, Lammonby is nowhere near ready but looks a prospect. Maybe they go to one of the old pros in the CC, as the Aussies did with Chris Rogers?
It’s difficult to change an opener now, Crawley could come in for Burns...agree about Sibley...but he would be batting quite high and didn’t score any against spin in SL-plus he has missed two weeks
If a change was made I could see England going with Bairstow and leaving Lawrence at 3 and Root will stay at 4.
-
Maybe they go to one of the old pros in the CC, as the Aussies did with Chris Rogers?
Such as?
-
Don't blame him. That looked stone dead - don't know how DRS determined umpire's call on impact.
Doesn't matter, shouldn't be hounding the umpire like that. Could take a leaf out of Root's book and just walk away from it...
-
I think someone said it earlier but it is very obvious the difference in speeds and general methods between the spinners. The Indians bowling quicker and into the surface.
The day night test pitch will be something now I reckon. Shastri been on the blower already no doubts. By a raging turner with a pink ball under lights will be something different.
-
Doesn't matter, shouldn't be hounding the umpire like that. Could take a leaf out of Root's book and just walk away from it...
Agree that it's not what you want to see but when have you seen him walk away from such instances since he's been India captain? He's not a Root or Rahane as captain
-
I'm not really sure why we thought Rory Burns would fare any better than Mark Stoneman or Keaton Jennings?
-
Ashwin is an experienced and highly skilled Test match bowler, used to bowling in these conditions.
-
Such as?
Rory Burns?
-
Such as?
Daryl Mitchell is a bit old but someone of that ilk. Ben Slater has a pretty good range of experience and had a good year in the BWT, little younger than Burns but he's got 5000 FC runs to his name. Chris Dent had a crap 2020 but averages near to 40 in FC, 9000 runs, plenty experience.
Not suggesting any of these are a long term fix but I think I made that pretty clear in my original post. Rogers was stopgap for the Aussies and he did alright.
-
Rory Burns?
I'd hope that Burns gets back into form but he's on a horrible run and when is he going to get a chance to bat himself back into form with so little FC cricket on offer outside the test calendar?
-
I'd hope that Burns gets back into form but he's on a horrible run and when is he going to get a chance to bat himself back into form with so little FC cricket on offer outside the test calendar?
Also remember Burns didn't have the SL series as a warm up, he was straight in to this because of his Paternity leave. So hasn't actually played test cricket for a long time.
-
It's unfair to judge Burns on this pitch. Looked good in first innings of first test, although gave his wicket away. He's probably not the long term answer. Crawley and Sibley I expect, but prefer Crawley at 3 to be honest. Not too many out there hammering the door down.
-
Rory Burns?
Didn't the fella say drop these openers? But I agree Burns is likely to be as good as anyone else available.
Why on earth would we think Daryl Mitchell or Chris Dent or Ben Slater would fare any better? Slater wasn't even in Notts 1st XI at the start of last season.
-
Didn't the fella say drop these openers? But I agree Burns is likely to be as good as anyone else available.
Why on earth would we think Daryl Mitchell or Chris Dent or Ben Slater would fare any better? Slater wasn't even in Notts 1st XI at the start of last season.
It's not even necessarily about them coming in and being brilliant, though I suspect it would be difficult to do worse than Burns has been. As much about not just hammering Burns until his confidence is totally shot.
-
Also remember Burns didn't have the SL series as a warm up, he was straight in to this because of his Paternity leave. So hasn't actually played test cricket for a long time.
That's a fair point but wasn't he on a pretty horrible run before this series anyway?
-
Didn't the fella say drop these openers? But I agree Burns is likely to be as good as anyone else available.
Why on earth would we think Daryl Mitchell or Chris Dent or Ben Slater would fare any better? Slater wasn't even in Notts 1st XI at the start of last season.
It was tongue in cheek as Rory Burns exactly matches the description the poster wanted as the new opener. If only he wasn't the one being replaced....
-
It was tongue in cheek as Rory Burns exactly matches the description the poster wanted as the new opener. If only he wasn't the one being replaced....
:D :D
-
It was tongue in cheek as Rory Burns exactly matches the description the poster wanted as the new opener. If only he wasn't the one being replaced....
He would do?
-
All three of those names mentioned would probably average just under 30 if they came in and played ten Test matches for England.
-
All three of those names mentioned would probably average just under 30 if they came in and played ten Test matches for England.
And thats generous. Dent and Slater, deary me
-
That's a fair point but wasn't he on a pretty horrible run before this series anyway?
A quick cricinfo search says he averaged 28.22 in 2020 in 9 innings with a top score of 90
-
And thats generous. Dent and Slater, deary me
I was suggesting they would do about the same as all the others have done. And, yes, it might be being generous.
-
Since von Strauss retired, England have culled openers with frightening regularity, never returning to give any of those tried another chance. Reflecting on how bloody difficult the lot of the England opener can be, on balance I would like to see both Burns and Sibley given longer to make it. Sibley, to be fair, is nowhere near the chop anyway, mind.
That doesn't mean Burns should play the next two tests - Bairstow will come in for someone, as might Crawley, but when we are back in England, I think he starts.
-
Bairstow to be fair did pretty well in SL, no big scores but scored a few and did bat responsibly in some tricky times, and he can play spin pretty well.
I think England are sure to play him, of the players we have available just not sure who they will drop to get him in.
Burns has missed out some practice from the previous tour and has done an ok job so far, not great, but ok.
I can't see England picking Crawley, he may be our best long term bet but didn't score in SL and hasn't played so far in the two matches.Tough ask for him.
Plus I don't think they will want to leave out Lawrence, again, at some point you have to get these guys in and give them a run.
The only batting change I can see is Bairstow opening for Burns and leaving Lawrence at 3 with Root 4.
If the next match is under lights you would think our seamers would have more of a chance and that means getting Jimmy back and maybe going with one spinner.
I'm keeping Stone in the side and Broad with some movement if there is any.
It's not all doom and gloom, we will lose here but I'm backing us in the next game if it's going to help the seamers a bit more than this game.
-
One thing I've always found interesting is that we adapt our bowling attack a lot to deal with the different environments as we tour the world but just expect to play virtually the same batsmen regardless. For middle order batsmen that does make sense as regardless of where in the world you play, in the 30-80 over period you're going to face a mixture of spin and pace with the older ball regardless. Obviously somewhere like England the amount of spin bowled in that period will be less than it will be India in the same period but it's not completely different.
But in that first 30 over period the difference in what you will face is massive. In the likes of England and New Zealand you'll be tested predominantly by full, swinging deliveries around off stump. In Australia you'll typically be tested more by seam movement than by swing and there will be more short pitched bowling to test you on the back foot too. As you go to the sub continent openers find themselves facing spin very early on with the hard ball, often they'll even be starting their innings against spin. Obviously there are a small number of world class openers who can handle all 3 situations, reent examples for England being Cook and possibly Strauss, but right now I don't think we have anybody who is good enough to master all of those different situations so surely it makes sense to use the best openers for each situation? For example Jennings was hopeless in England (average of under 20) but had an average of over 40 in the sub continent. Would it not have been worth having him in the touring group?
-
Bairstow to be fair did pretty well in SL, no big scores but scored a few and did bat responsibly in some tricky times, and he can play spin pretty well.
I think England are sure to play him, of the players we have available just not sure who they will drop to get him in.
Burns has missed out some practice from the previous tour and has done an ok job so far, not great, but ok.
I can't see England picking Crawley, he may be our best long term bet but didn't score in SL and hasn't played so far in the two matches.Tough ask for him.
Plus I don't think they will want to leave out Lawrence, again, at some point you have to get these guys in and give them a run.
The only batting change I can see is Bairstow opening for Burns and leaving Lawrence at 3 with Root 4.
If the next match is under lights you would think our seamers would have more of a chance and that means getting Jimmy back and maybe going with one spinner.
I'm keeping Stone in the side and Broad with some movement if there is any.
It's not all doom and gloom, we will lose here but I'm backing us in the next game if it's going to help the seamers a bit more than this game.
The fact that it is day night would be my reason for not going for Bairstow to open. I think he will come in for Lawrence, unless Dan plays a blinder tomorrow, with Crawley for Burns. I too would go three seamers - the ageless duo and one speedster, plus Leach.
-
Haven't really followed a day/night test in India before, does it really offer that much to the swing/seam bowlers?
-
Haven't really followed a day/night test in India before, does it really offer that much to the swing/seam bowlers?
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-test-championship-2019-2021-1195334/india-vs-bangladesh-2nd-test-1187017/full-scorecard (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-test-championship-2019-2021-1195334/india-vs-bangladesh-2nd-test-1187017/full-scorecard)
The only D/N Test in India was against Bangladesh at Eden Gardens and India walked it as expected. Interestingly at the Bangladesh wickets fell to the India seam attack. I think it was more Bangladesh were rubbish though. Ashwin and Jadeja were both still picked just weren't required.
-
Very much on the point of picking your younger talent and giving them time Crawley must come back in. He would have played the first two tests if not picking up an injury and no one has done well enough for him not to get his place back. He was picked in front of Lawrence so for me comes back into No3 slot as Lawrence is not a no3 at any stage of his first class career.
As for the openers I think you stick with them as has been said we have chopped and changed with regularity since Strauss and Cook and I do believe they are the best from the crop we have. If you believe that one of them is dropped due to poor performance than YJB could fill a slot but isn’t a solution for the longer term. Again he has played 40odd tests and has been dropped and not shown a reason to walk back in and will play only due to this rotation policy we are using due to the amount of cricket we are playing in next 12 months with what I believe the end goal of winning in Aus and I don’t see him being in our staring 11 for the first test.
As for the others mentioned in CC in England none are a long term solution but there is evidence of those that are new and unknown to opposing bowlers so well at the start until any flaws are found out and as we know the step up is extreme from CC to test cricket but if you felt that Burns who looks the more likely is not worth a place in your side you could show horn someone in.
With my Kent hat on Denley was regarded as a great player of spin and was very good at securing the top of the order but again was deemed to not be at the level required after a decent run of tests. Daniel bell Drummond was touted as a England opener is a solid CC performer as is Sam Northeast but not in the opening slot that people seem to think both on this forum and in the written media is our weak link not just on this tour but in general.
Sibley has a technical flaw with the angle of his bat at 45degree angle when playing spin in defence and can get stuck at the end without a release shot and Burns has just not played any cricket really and has never by all accounts played in these conditions.
The over whelming fact is that in the 3 days of this test we have been off the pace both with bat and ball and I think you have to give them this series and go from there. Sibley will have had two series in the sub continent and of the powers that be decide he isn’t for them in maybe these conditions that’ll as someone mentioned maybe we need to pick our batters based on the situations be believe we will have to face.
-
We're very good at spotting these 'technical flaws', aren't we?
-
Surely selection for Ahmedabad is dependant on Ben Stokes? If he’s unable to bowl we end up with 3 main bowler plus Moeen the all round met. We need a fifth bowler. So could Stokes bat at 3? Get Woakes in as another all rounder.
Burns, Sibley, Stokes, Root, Pope, Foakes, Moeen, Woakes, Leach, Stone and Anderson.
-
Surely selection for Ahmedabad is dependant on Ben Stokes? If he’s unable to bowl we end up with 3 main bowler plus Moeen the all round met. We need a fifth bowler. So could Stokes bat at 3? Get Woakes in as another all rounder.
Burns, Sibley, Stokes, Root, Pope, Foakes, Moeen, Woakes, Leach, Stone and Anderson.
Some of us are making the assumption as its a day night game seam bowling will play a bigger part than it has up till now. With the last game out there under lights Indian seamers took the wickets.
It's our strength of course, so I for one am not going to get to downhearted when we lose this current game,almost certainly tommorow.
As much as we want to compete on the spin front we just don't have the quality after Leach.
I'm not sure it makes any difference whether it's Ali or Bess selected.....maybe If Ali had shown some better form coming into the game-but he didn't for various reqsons(I think he would of played in SL ahead of Bess,or even with).
Ahmedabad if it plays as some of us hope is our best chance of getting another win.
-
We're very good at spotting these 'technical flaws', aren't we?
Could it be because we watch the television commentary where they do lengthy segments on these kind of things? 🙄 Have a day off man...
-
I'd rather you told me about Chris Dent's technical flaws. Or lack of, hopefully?
-
We're very good at spotting these 'technical flaws', aren't we?
Alot of wannabee national coaches and selectors. When in reality they don't even do it for their own club sides.
You can repeat what you heard pundits say all you want but guess what - its bloody hard playing away in India. Nigh on Impossible when you lose the toss and the umpires are on the payroll.
There is no one better in County Cricket. The best players are in this squad with a notable mention for Wood and Malan. If India are a better side then so be it. Plucking County pros from obscurity is best left in a bygone era
-
Plucking County pros from obscurity is best left in a bygone era
Errr, is this not exactly how Crawley was selected? It definitely wasn't on weight of runs over time.
-
Errr, is this not exactly how Crawley was selected? It definitely wasn't on weight of runs over time.
Crawley was selected on the back of 2 or 3 stand out innings watched by England selectors. Like Marcus Trescothick was
So no it isn't
-
Crawley was selected on the back of 2 or 3 stand out innings watched by England selectors. Like Marcus Trescothick was
So no it wasnt
He played a few good innings, while averaging about 35 in FC cricket, played one Lions game and then was straight into the Test squad. Think you're being more than a bit selective about your use of the phrase plucked from obscurity. Before he was in the Test squad that Lions game was his only ever England representative experience apparently.
-
Crawley was selected on the back of 2 or 3 stand out innings watched by England selectors. Like Marcus Trescothick was
So no it isn't
How do you know that is how he was selected?
-
He played a few good innings, while averaging about 35 in FC cricket, played one Lions game and then was straight into the Test squad. Think you're being more than a bit selective about your use of the phrase plucked from obscurity. Before he was in the Test squad that Lions game was his only ever England representative experience apparently.
I get the sense you get most of your player knowledge from cricinfo.
They obviously believed those innings they saw had the makings of a world class player. And they were right - he scored 250 after a few Tests.
I dont think anyone who makes their debut at 21 can be described as an obscure county pro alongside those other guys you plucked from the stats list having never seen bat
-
How do you know that is how he was selected?
I bumped into Rob Key and the England cameraman at the Old Dutch Hospital in Colombo in 2018 and they told me Ed Smith had been watching Crawley for the last 12 months. They also told me that he was trying to get Harmer qualified for England but thats another story
-
Alot of wannabee national coaches and selectors. When in reality they don't even do it for their own club sides.
If your comment is in return for my mention of Sibleys “technical flaws” it’s A) based on a selection of media pundits who of which have played at the highest level picking up on it. B) having played the game for 20 years and in that time saying I have a fair idea of the basics of batting and C) common sense in that if you play with and angled bat to limit the strike area and also the ability to play the ball back straight which is where there are less fielders.
Don’t let this get in the way of the fact I feel Sibley is a superb opening bat for test cricket and I generally think will have a long and successful test career as he already shown he works very hard at his game and will overcome this
-
Sibley losing 12kg because he knew he needed to be fitter and quicker was probably the best sign yet that he's got the mentality to be top class. That's a serious effort to shift that weight in a matter of months for a big bloke.
-
Easier to shift it than for a little bloke to be fair.
:D
-
Aren't all England players plucked from 'county cricket obscurity' at some point? I can remember seeing a young Joe Root walking around Scarborough in a tracksuit. No-one had a clue who he was.
-
Easier to shift it than for a little bloke to be fair.
:D
Little bloke probably doesn't have 12kg to lose 😅 but having seen one of my mates who is a big lad trying to lose serious weight it's bloody hard work with all that extra bulk you've got to shift about. Hard to change up a big person's diet too, takes some real willpower.
-
Little bloke probably doesn't have 12kg to lose 😅 but having seen one of my mates who is a big lad trying to lose serious weight it's bloody hard work with all that extra bulk you've got to shift about. Hard to change up a big person's diet too, takes some real willpower.
Sibley said he thought he was fine until he got to the England team and saw the level Stokes and Buttler were at then realised what was needed.
I think myself of the two openers, Sibley looks the worst playing spin, but of the two Sibley has shown he can adapt and put in the work to improve.
He's not the finished article but he's not going to be this early. Losing a significant amount of weight is a damn good sign.
-
Aren't all England players plucked from 'county cricket obscurity' at some point? I can remember seeing a young Joe Root walking around Scarborough in a tracksuit. No-one had a clue who he was.
Root was tipped to captain England from 12 years old by Michael Vaughan. They played for the same club.
A 30 year old who hasnt been in any Lions/A team squads, is never tipped by the media and has played most of his career with moderate success in Div 2 would be my definition of an obscure national selection.
-
I bumped into Rob Key and the England cameraman at the Old Dutch Hospital in Colombo in 2018 and they told me Ed Smith had been watching Crawley for the last 12 months. They also told me that he was trying to get Harmer qualified for England but thats another story
Right ok...so he was selected the same way most others are.
-
If you say so
He certainly didn't have weight of runs behind him like burns or sibley.
The selectors saw something special and went for it. Seems to have worked so far
-
So not having scored many runs is not obscurity? But having scored lots of runs is?
-
Seem to be getting stuck up on Semantics here. If 'obscure' is causing confusion please change it to whatever you see fit.
The crux of this conversation is whether you would rather pick Sibley, Burns and Crawley or Mitchell, Dent and Slater.
I think 2 of the first 3 will have long succesful, international careers. Im on the fence about the 3rd.
I dont think the last 3 will ever be near an England squad in any format.
-
I agree that those three won't play for England. But it's not because they've scored too many runs in county cricket. It's because they haven't scored enough.
-
That'll be Lawrence out of the side for the rest of this series then.
-
That was unplayable to Root...you just cannot hope to play that at any time
-
God it's so good to see Moeen back clubbing 6s.
-
And another!
-
If you're not enjoying this then do you really like cricket? 250 strike rate in a test match 😂
-
Not going to win many matches rotating your team like England have.
The morning about the pitch will carry on but Ashwin scored a 100 on it. England need to look back at their dismissals in the first innings, probably only 1 was down to the pitch
-
Don’t think the pitch should be used as an excuse, I actually think a game under lights is just what we need to get back.
It’s 1-1 at the end of the day not 0-2.
I think we will make a couple of changes for the next game, Bairstow will play I think
-
Get Moeen up to open and let him go out and hit 6s 😂 it won't be very effective but it'll make the 4am wake up much more worthwhile!
-
Alex Stewart hit the nail on the head - only root’s dismissal was from a ball misbehaving. The rest should look at their shot selection
-
Get Moeen up to open and let him go out and hit 6s 😂 it won't be very effective but it'll make the 4am wake up much more worthwhile!
He’s been rested for the next game so the fun is over!
-
If you'd said we'd be 1-1 going into the D/N game I'd bite your hand off
-
If you'd said we'd be 1-1 going into the D/N game I'd bite your hand off
Yep totally agree. No need to go nuts about this test. And we may have the best chance under lights with our seam attack.
-
Get Moeen up to open and let him go out and hit 6s 😂 it won't be very effective but it'll make the 4am wake up much more worthwhile!
D/N so not 4am!! I believe its more like 8.45am!!
-
Get Moeen up to open and let him go out and hit 6s 😂 it won't be very effective but it'll make the 4am wake up much more worthwhile!
He's flying home...
Can't see him coming back again, he won't play in the home summer and in aus... Is this the end in test cricket?
-
He's flying home...
Can't see him coming back again, he won't play in the home summer and in aus... Is this the end in test cricket?
https://twitter.com/ESPNcricinfo/status/1361593829392936963?s=19
17 man squad shows they are leaving all bases open though.
-
He's flying home...
Can't see him coming back again, he won't play in the home summer and in aus... Is this the end in test cricket?
He's not back for the last test which is not a day night match?
-
D/N so not 4am!! I believe its more like 8.45am!!
Finally can have something resembling a proper sleep schedule again :D
-
We'll always be up against it in these conditions, let's face it. It's not just our batting, but we don't have a world class spinner in our ranks. Stating the obvious but neither Bess, Leach or Ali are on the same ballpark as Ashwin. We just very rarely produce very good spinners. Just look back in previous years and its always been the case really.
-
I think that could be that for Mo. He wont be in the side at home with only one spinner needed and doubt he ever wants to set foot in Aus again even if selected
Some World class performances with bat and ball over the years without ever really belonging to the very highest level of all-rounders. Thanks for the good times 👏🏼
Hopefully he'll continue in white ball where he is more valuable
-
Got to feel for Mo. There was already a higher instance of mental health issues in cricket prior to the pandemic than in other sports. Can't imagine how it feels to have to bubble in a hotel, mostly in your room, for weeks on end.
Add in his isolation in SL, a young family and his previous mental wellbeing. Your job isn't worth your health, whatever it is. I hope we see him again in Test cricket but agree that it may be a tough road back.
Huge credit for getting Test series played during the pandemic, but its proving to be at a high price
-
Got to feel for Mo. There was already a higher instance of mental health issues in cricket prior to the pandemic than in other sports. Can't imagine how it feels to have to bubble in a hotel, mostly in your room, for weeks on end.
Add in his isolation in SL, a young family and his previous mental wellbeing. Your job isn't worth your health, whatever it is. I hope we see him again in Test cricket but agree that it may be a tough road back.
Huge credit for getting Test series played during the pandemic, but its proving to be at a high price
Yes Morgan said during our last summer the bubbles are not sustainable, and since then a few have chosen to take a break from it.
Mo didn't play in SL and that must of been tough, if your playing it may not be so bad.
Chris Woakes I think also didn't play in SL are may or may not play in the day night.if he doesn't he may have two tours not playing a game.
-
Also we're going to play 3 seamers and Leach, no? For me, Stokes not bowling anywhere near enough to lift some of the burden
-
For the next match if it helps seam maybe one spinner.
The seamers Broad and Anderson I would go Stone again myself and there's Woakes. I wonder if we might gamble an go with an extra bowler and hope we get the best of the conditions.
-
We'll always be up against it in these conditions, let's face it. It's not just our batting, but we don't have a world class spinner in our ranks. Stating the obvious but neither Bess, Leach or Ali are on the same ballpark as Ashwin. We just very rarely produce very good spinners. Just look back in previous years and its always been the case really.
English spin bowling has never been as bad as it is now. Moeen Ali is a batsman who fell into the role of off-sponner because there wasn't anyone else. Every county would have probably have had two spinners better than Bess or Ali in the 1980s. It wasn't chance; it was the fact that they bowled a lot of overs and were valued.
-
* They were all finger-spinners, mind you. Wrist-spin was almost non-existent.
-
I highly doubt Ahmedabad will be a seamers paradise. The D/N factor might just end up being a novelty factor in India
-
* They were all finger-spinners, mind you. Wrist-spin was almost non-existent.
Wrist spin gets murdered in India
-
Respect to anyone who got up today. I couldn't be bothered.
-
Wrist spin gets murdered in India
I was talking about county cricket in the 1980s, if you read the post above. Your observation perhaps makes it even more relevant?
-
I wasnt having a dig at Ali, i think he's always been a valuable player for England and have enjoyed watching him. He's obviously a talented player and at times has proven to be a very good off spinner. However, understandablely we just don't produce the spinners to compare with the very best in the game and never really have.
-
I was talking about county cricket in the 1980s, if you read the post above. Your observation perhaps makes it even more relevant?
Think it’s tough being a wrist spinner in county cricket tbh
-
We don't play our cricket in condtions conducive to the development of spin bowlers, and never have. But day-to-day professional cricket could, and should, be played in more conducive conditions than it currently is.
-
Think it’s tough being a wrist spinner in county cricket tbh
Yes. But at least we have some now. Quite a few, in fact.
Did you read the post?
-
Seeing how badly England batted on this surface, I can't see anything but a raging bunsen for the next 2 tests - the benefits of day/night for seamers will be totally nullified.
With regards to Moeen asking to go home - I have no issue with that, the only thing I question is when he made this request - if it was before the test started, then why did they play him. They've pissed off Dom Bess for no reason.
-
Seeing how badly England batted on this surface, I can't see anything but a raging bunsen for the next 2 tests - the benefits of day/night for seamers will be totally nullified.
With regards to Moeen asking to go home - I have no issue with that, the only thing I question is when he made this request - if it was before the test started, then why did they play him. They've pissed off Dom Bess for no reason.
I did wonder why myself they said Bess had to go away and get better. It seemed a bit harsh to me. Was like that's it you're not playing on tour again
-
Mo was due to go home anyway, so a bit odd England saying its all Mo's decision.
The ECB can largely be blamed for our lack of spinners. Somerset fined for producing a turning pitch. Not exactly encouraging counties to invest in spin if that's what you get.
-
I did wonder why myself they said Bess had to go away and get better. It seemed a bit harsh to me. Was like that's it you're not playing on tour again
Root said Bess had to go away and get better, Jetan Patel said yesterday that Bess needed a rest, that's why he wasn't playing. Whatever the reason, the camp should stick to the same story. Whether it was the plan for Ali to go or he's opted to (again different versions of events) I don't think he should have played. What was the point of Butler flying to India for 1 test? Rest players for the whole series if they are managing well-being/workload. It will be interesting to see which of the England IPL brigade opt to leave halfway through the tournament due to bubble fatigue - I bet none do.
-
We'll always be up against it in these conditions, let's face it. It's not just our batting, but we don't have a world class spinner in our ranks. Stating the obvious but neither Bess, Leach or Ali are on the same ballpark as Ashwin. We just very rarely produce very good spinners. Just look back in previous years and its always been the case really.
Is anyone?
We won a few years ago with Panesar and Swann, didn't we? Leach is at least as good as Panesar. The problem is the lack of a really good offie, and obviously the fact that none of our batsmen can really play spin apart from perhaps Root - although his gameplan didn't work so well this time round.
-
Mo will suffer from the impression that he did enough to get a new IPL contract and knows he won`t play red ball cricket again for England...
Don`t really blame him but the whole bubble/isolation angle won`t sit well with the majority of England fans back home going enduring their own private struggles without a tenth of his earnings
Good luck to him
-
If he can't handle the bubble anymore, then that's totally understandable - he was stuck in isolation in a hotel room in Sri Lanka for 10 days. It will be interesting if he's happy to do 6 weeks of IPL, if contracted.
-
Is anyone?
We won a few years ago with Panesar and Swann, didn't we? Leach is at least as good as Panesar. The problem is the lack of a really good offie, and obviously the fact that none of our batsmen can really play spin apart from perhaps Root - although his gameplan didn't work so well this time round.
Not sure. My point was that Swann probably was.not sure Leach is as good at this level yet as Panasar was when he was playing with Swann. It's all opinions though. Not blaming any of our bowlers, not like they're not trying to be as good as they can be.
-
The ECB can largely be blamed for our lack of spinners. Somerset fined for producing a turning pitch. Not exactly encouraging counties to invest in spin if that's what you get.
I thinks this is the importance issue. Had a county produced a strip like that in the county championship then everyone would have been complaining.
I also believe there are plenty of people on here who would feel hard done by if they were to turn up to a ground and find the opposition have a similar wicket.
-
I thinks this is the importance issue. Had a county produced a strip like that in the county championship then everyone would have been complaining.
I also believe there are plenty of people on here who would feel hard done by if they were to turn up to a ground and find the opposition have a similar wicket.
Ironically, the thing about playing at a mid-tier club level is that you face pitches like this every August.
-
Seeing how badly England batted on this surface, I can't see anything but a raging bunsen for the next 2 tests - the benefits of day/night for seamers will be totally nullified.
With regards to Moeen asking to go home - I have no issue with that, the only thing I question is when he made this request - if it was before the test started, then why did they play him. They've pissed off Dom Bess for no reason.
This hits the nail on the head for me.
I have sympathy for Mo with regards bubble life etc... but at what point did it become too much and suddenly change? He's just smashed the ball around and taken 8 wickets in his 1st test for ages.
For me the ECB are making a bit of a mockery of this series. Yes it is right to put players welfare to the forefront but it seems as though to me Morgan holds a lot of power of test selection as well as white ball. By this I mean players are being rotated out of test series vs India (in an Ashes year) to be fresh for a white ball series. That has to be a 1st.
-
would be controversial by the ICC but would love to see them replicate the county championship rule with the coin toss. I think we would see a huge change in the pitches worldwide. Would definitely see less green tops in England, NZ etc and day 1 dustbowls in the more spin friendly conditions.
No bias in this opinion, would like to see it across the test cricket platform as i think we would really see the best teams/players rather than those who only dominate in certain conditions
-
Ironically, the thing about playing at a mid-tier club level is that you face pitches like this every August.
Don't imagine you get many Ashwin/Axar/Kuldeep bowling attacks playing mid tier club cricket though 😅
-
This hits the nail on the head for me.
I have sympathy for Mo with regards bubble life etc... but at what point did it become too much and suddenly change? He's just smashed the ball around and taken 8 wickets in his 1st test for ages.
For me the ECB are making a bit of a mockery of this series. Yes it is right to put players welfare to the forefront but it seems as though to me Morgan holds a lot of power of test selection as well as white ball. By this I mean players are being rotated out of test series vs India (in an Ashes year) to be fresh for a white ball series. That has to be a 1st.
This is tricky isn't it...you're referring to Buttler who is returning to the one day squad after resting for three tests..and Mo would be in the one day team also.
I'm not sure which is the priority but it's 2020 WC coming up in India soon and I would say the line of which format is more important has got closer together.
No doubt Morgan is sitting in the most influential position right now.
Is that wrong I'm wondering..,
-
Ironically, the thing about playing at a mid-tier club level is that you face pitches like this every August.
Professional cricketers barely get to bowl with a red ball in August.
-
would be controversial by the ICC but would love to see them replicate the county championship rule with the coin toss. I think we would see a huge change in the pitches worldwide. Would definitely see less green tops in England, NZ etc and day 1 dustbowls in the more spin friendly conditions.
No bias in this opinion, would like to see it across the test cricket platform as i think we would really see the best teams/players rather than those who only dominate in certain conditions
The difference with a green seamer in England is that more often they get better once the freshness has gone and flatten out, see off the first session and they are usually good to bat on - they don't progressively seam more as the game progresses and go through the top on day one.
Either way, England batted and bowled crap in the first innings, and deservedly lost. The main thing I took from this was the pace the spinners bowled at - India were far more threatening as the ball turned and spat far quicker than when Leech/Ali bowled.
-
The rotation system would have been fine had it been, you play the Sri Lanka series or the Indian one. One game on one game off is not helpful to the players getting any rhythm.
-
This just came up on my YouTube recommendations:
https://youtu.be/mgOIyVRrh5M
He's really rather impressive.
-
would be controversial by the ICC but would love to see them replicate the county championship rule with the coin toss. I think we would see a huge change in the pitches worldwide. Would definitely see less green tops in England, NZ etc and day 1 dustbowls in the more spin friendly conditions.
No bias in this opinion, would like to see it across the test cricket platform as i think we would really see the best teams/players rather than those who only dominate in certain conditions
It is my view that the toss should go to the away team given that the home team control the type of ball and the preparation of the pitch. I am not sure I agree though with the effect it would have on pitch preparation. My view is that it would encourage more green tracks on the first morning of a test.
The worst of test cricket in general is played on pitches that are at their best to bat on from ball 1, then gradually degrade as the match goes on. The very worst of it is played on pitches that offer little at all for bowlers until the later stages of the games. For me, the best pitches are ones that start tricky to bat on with the ball moving around, get better to bat on during day 2 when the moisture comes out of the pitch, then start to deteriorate as the match goes on.
If the away team had the toss, home sides would have to look at pitches that offered something to the bowlers first otherwise they would have to field first every time. That would be a much better balance between bat and ball for me.
-
I would like to see a new approach to Test cricket: drop in a new pitch at the start of the second inning and reverse the toss for second inning. That switch in pitch conditions and batting order would be the real "Test" of a team's ability.
ICC could also create a format that follows the 5-day/pitch-toss reversal format. Call it the "Modern Test".
-
there are plenty of people on here who would feel hard done by if they were to turn up to a ground and find the opposition have a similar wicket.
Only those who like to biff the ball about without care. Nothing more boring week in week out than rocking up to the same 'road' type surface.. You get 'top marks' on Saturday for a road but it does produce dull cricket. Would much prefer to rock up to different styles of wicket which then favour different batting styles, different bowling styles.. would produce more rounded teams and more skilful teams for sure.
England won the first test on a feather bed, India batted stupidly badly.
second test, wasn't a feather bed but wasn't a minefield either.. England bowled awfully gifting many 4 balls.... England then batted equally badly gifting many wickets away.. Listening to Strauss and the god awful Rainford-brent bang on about 'taking the positive approach'... yeah, that's fine when it's a road... look what happens when it isn't...
All in all.. Preferred the second test to the first as the first was a forgone conclusion once England racked up stupid runs and India failed.. feather bed cricket.. average boosting .. second test was more entertaining and required more skill to compete
-
Nice post. Maybe this is part of a more general dumbing down that says cricket can't be exciting unless sixes are being hit often and far?
-
I also think it also has something to do with the venues and TV companies wanting the matches to last the full 5 days.
-
I also think it also has something to do with the venues and TV companies wanting the matches to last the full 5 days.
Most certainly a massive factor £££££££££££££
-
I also think it also has something to do with the venues and TV companies wanting the matches to last the full 5 days.
But more matches are finished in four or less days than ever before?
-
But more matches are finished in four or less days than ever before?
Grounds and boards want 5 days solid as it’s more money. However, without flat roads teams aren’t good enough to do it so games are ending earlier.. meaning venues then would rather it ends in four days as it’ll m losing money for the fifth day.
5 days of a flat lords wicket is worth more than a 3 days slaughter at Trent bridge
-
would be controversial by the ICC but would love to see them replicate the county championship rule with the coin toss. I think we would see a huge change in the pitches worldwide. Would definitely see less green tops in England, NZ etc and day 1 dustbowls in the more spin friendly conditions.
No bias in this opinion, would like to see it across the test cricket platform as i think we would really see the best teams/players rather than those who only dominate in certain conditions
Very Interesting point and I wouldn't mind seeing that trialled for a spell.Ironically, the thing about playing at a mid-tier club level is that you face pitches like this every August.
The previous groundsman at my club took some ill-informed advice in the Spring of 2019 and sprayed the whole square with glyphosate. By mid June we had a dustbowl. It actually suited us because we had 2 good spinners and 1 brilliant one. We lost one match at home all season. We played one match against the previous seasons champions where 1 wicket fell to seam in the match and our offy took the best figures in the clubs 150 year history. We got the second worst pitch markings from the umpires in the league that year and the groundsman was politely moved along.
As an opening batsman the easiest time to bat was against the new ball. By 10/12 overs when the opposition skipper had realised what was happening with the pitch it was spin from both ends for the duration and the ball was going square, up and down. Very challenging but actually really enjoyable and a very different type of club cricket.
-
All in all.. Preferred the second test to the first as the first was a forgone conclusion once England racked up stupid runs and India failed.. feather bed cricket.. average boosting .. second test was more entertaining and required more skill to compete
Interesting. For me I preferred the first test, as this second test was done by lunch time day 1, as that was about how long the top lasted for.
I'd love there to be no toss in cricket; just let the Away Team pick what they'd like to do first and then play. Sure, curators and nations may still strive for home advantages but at least you do away with test matches decided on a coin flip.
-
Very Interesting point and I wouldn't mind seeing that trialled for a spell.
The previous groundsman at my club took some ill-informed advice in the Spring of 2019 and sprayed the whole square with glyphosate. By mid June we had a dustbowl. It actually suited us because we had 2 good spinners and 1 brilliant one. We lost one match at home all season. We played one match against the previous seasons champions where 1 wicket fell to seam in the match and our offy took the best figures in the clubs 150 year history. We got the second worst pitch markings from the umpires in the league that year and the groundsman was politely moved along.
As an opening batsman the easiest time to bat was against the new ball. By 10/12 overs when the opposition skipper had realised what was happening with the pitch it was spin from both ends for the duration and the ball was going square, up and down. Very challenging but actually really enjoyable and a very different type of club cricket.
Sadly all they want are roads and slug fests. Anything challenging gets boo’d and marked down.
-
Interesting. For me I preferred the first test, as this second test was done by lunch time day 1, as that was about how long the top lasted for.
I'd love there to be no toss in cricket; just let the Away Team pick what they'd like to do first and then play. Sure, curators and nations may still strive for home advantages but at least you do away with test matches decided on a coin flip.
First tests was one England have scored 400+.. well, basically it’s a draw unless India do something dumb. They did, at which point it was .. ah, game over then
Both tests produced one sided wins. Which side of the fence you sit on is probably down to nationality or personal preferred format (or simply a ‘we won so who cares woo’ and a ‘we got hammered, we need an excuse as to why’ ) . Those who like slug fests will most likely (not always) like the flatter wickets .. those who like it to challenge a batter, will probably prefer test two. Same with Saturday cricket, those who love to hit will want a road, Those who want a challenge will prefer non roads. Both can produce good games, both can and do produce Boring games where everyone knows the winner a mile away. Question is, which gives teams something to play for even if it’s one sided..(saturdays that is)
Neither wicket is perfect and could be improved but these are the two we had for these two specific games.
Next wicket may favour England but I can’t see England supporters moaning if it does. It’ll be one Jimmy Jimmy’ or ‘broaddddy’ or ‘stokey lad’ blah blah (same with India with ashwin etc)
-
This just came up on my YouTube recommendations:
https://youtu.be/mgOIyVRrh5M
He's really rather impressive.
What a master craftsmen. That was fascinating to watch- the amount of practice that he must do to develop these deliveries must be huge.
-
Don't think this would happen but as well as the away side having the toss the ball used plays a big part in the game.
Instead of Asian sub continent teams using a Dukes ball they are unfamiliar with an SG ball could be used here.
Same with Australia touring here the kook ball.
This would even out when we are in the sub continent where a bigger seam would give a little balance back to the away team
-
Neither wicket is perfect and could be improved but these are the two we had for these two specific games.
The wicket should provide equal opportunity to both bat and ball, and the first track just about managed that. Overall the teams recognised batting units (top 5) scored six 50+ scores and spin was still the winner over seam in that first test match. Yet in the second test, the teams batting units only managed to score three 50+ scores between them and obviously spin won over seam. The second test was more of a slog fest with batsman having to hit out or die at the popping crease like Stokes did.
That second wicket should be saved for short format games, not test matches.
-
There's a very specific downside to this test being wrapped up in 4 days, in that it's one less day of live cricket on free-to-air UK TV. Folk I work with who have never been interested in cricket have been following along (only from 7/8am onward) and quite enjoying it, imagine there are more than a few people who have either had an interest piqued or rekindled. Shame to lose a day's opportunity for that.
-
Sadly all they want are roads and slug fests. Anything challenging gets boo’d and marked down.
I actually would prefer a mix.
Greenish, help for the seamers April&May. Good batting tracks June, July, early Aug. Favourable to spin Aug and Sept.
A good Test throughout the club season and a bit of something for everyone.
A club pitch should only be marked down if it's ridiculously favourable to one discipline or dangerous in my opinion. I have no problem playing on a challenging track and rate my best innings as a 60 from about 40 overs on an unprepared minefield. More satisfaction from that than a 70 ball ton i had the previous season on a road.
Not sure what the official criteria is for a Test track to be marked down. Anyone know?
-
This is a must read regarding Moeen, it looks like he has been completely thrown under the bus. And a really valid point about how Bess must now feel
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
-
This is a must read regarding Moeen, it looks like he has been completely thrown under the bus. And a really valid point about how Bess must now feel
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
I think the best spin on this is it's been badly handled, I have read Root has apologised later today directly to Mo.
I don't think myself Moeen will play test cricket again-just the short form
-
This is a must read regarding Moeen, it looks like he has been completely thrown under the bus. And a really valid point about how Bess must now feel
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
A good read, thanks
Sounds like poor man-management mainly from Ed Smith. Not for the first time!
-
This is a must read regarding Moeen, it looks like he has been completely thrown under the bus. And a really valid point about how Bess must now feel
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-v-england-2020-21-spurned-moeen-ali-begins-the-long-kiss-goodnight-after-choosing-to-leave-india-tour-1252037?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
I was fairly appalled at Root over this one. In his position being interviewed after a game, I would have found it difficult to show the diplomacy not to criticise either the pitch or the officiating, neither of which was anywhere near the standard required for international cricket. To side step those issues only to throw one of your team under a bus beggars belief.
-
I was fairly appalled at Root over this one. In his position being interviewed after a game, I would have found it difficult to show the diplomacy not to criticise either the pitch or the officiating, neither of which was anywhere near the standard required for international cricket. To side step those issues only to throw one of your team under a bus beggars belief.
Yeah he's got it wrong. It may be just clumsy language after a defeat. The problem is not just this thou, Moeen has said before when England lose he is often made a scapegoat.
If the article is correct on cricinfo, the intial mistake was Smith asking him to reconsider when a break was scheduled in just like the other players.
And of course Mo does not have a test contract. England have got this wrong.
-
The wicket should provide equal opportunity to both bat and ball, and the first track just about managed that.
First track provided equal opportunity between ball and bat? Only if you mean only batsmen for first 2-3 days and only bowlers for last 2 days - a recipe for toss win test win results/disasters. First test provided only batters opportunity for two days and nothing for the bowlers, so basically a one sided game to whoever bats first while second test showed batsmen and bowlers could do well from day 1 to 3 and thus team batting second also has a chance to win. Ind made ~300 runs in 3rd innings, still strange that criticism is on 2nd pitch while it should have been on the first one. Shows how end result (whether it is is our favor or not) can affect the perception of the pitch..
We need pitches to aid both batsmen and bowlers, I don't think we need to worry about whether it helps both fast bowlers and spinners or just one type as teams are free to select ranging from extremes of 5 fast bowlers or 5 spinners to anything in between after looking at the pitch. This change in conditions across the world is what makes tests exciting and overseas wins more satisfying..
-
Indian fan: Ashwin 100 runs and 8-100. Second greatest all rounder of all time after Kapil Dev
English fan: Moeen 50 runs and 8-200. Not good enough and should never play for England again.
That out sums it up, and seems to be the same opinion of the England management. Mo deserves far better treatment than this.
-
Smith asking him to stay on And making public that he said no is just appalling.
-
This isn't the first time Ed Smith has show he's not fit for his job. His treatment Malan after the Ashes, when he said he wasn't any good other than on fast Aussie pitches. He was never good enough as a player and is out of touch, but went to the right school for the ECB.
-
Ed Smith is just horrendous and must surely go. What an absolute tool.
-
This isn't the first time Ed Smith has show he's not fit for his job. His treatment Malan after the Ashes, when he said he wasn't any good other than on fast Aussie pitches. He was never good enough as a player and is out of touch, but went to the right school for the ECB.
I remember this well as I don’t think Malan got enough of a chance. The comments at the time from Smith didn’t really make sense as he scores runs here!
There is a running theme a bit going on here.
-
Yeah he's got it wrong. It may be just clumsy language after a defeat. The problem is not just this thou, Moeen has said before when England lose he is often made a scapegoat.
If the article is correct on cricinfo, the intial mistake was Smith asking him to reconsider when a break was scheduled in just like the other players.
And of course Mo does not have a test contract. England have got this wrong.
I didn't agree with England investing in Moeen as our front line spinner (back in 2014, I would have gone with Rashid instead), but having gone with him, he seems to be to be the worst treated of the test squad. I can't think of any other player in the modern game who has been asked to bat everywhere from 1 down to 9. He was the one who had to suddenly move up to 3 mid test match when Root decided that he fancied moving back down to 4. He was very quickly dropped from his central contact after a hugely successful year with the ball. From the outside it does sometimes feel that the easy option of dumping on him is taken because he comes across as a genuinely nice guy who is unlikely to react with hostility than other members of the dressing room.
-
Ed Smith has got to go. That is disgraceful.
-
Horrible comments coming out from Ed Smith.
In fairness to Mo he’s always been the one to blame after losses. I’d imagine if moeen chooses to play the IPL the English media will go at him
-
Dropping Bess for one test knowing you're going to have to pick him again a week later is also an utter clown move, especially as you can be sure a lorryload of sand is on its way to be dropped on top of the Ahmedabad square after the way this game went.
-
Dropping Bess for one test knowing you're going to have to pick him again a week later is also an utter clown move, especially as you can be sure a lorryload of sand is on its way to be dropped on top of the Ahmedabad square after the way this game went.
Yes.....but they didn't just drop Bess, they said to go away and get better. They could of said....Bess has done well to pick up wickets and is working with Patel on some fine tuning to be back in contention for a place.
But they didn't think they would need to pick him in the next week I don't think.as @SD says, Mo has been the ultimate team man so they presumed because he was back in the team he would forgo the break planned for him.
So instead of saying yes again, Mo says no......stick to the plan for a rest break out of the bubble.
It looks bad, it is bad...
-
Root has come out abs clarified his comments.
https://www.google.no/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/16/moeen-ali-returning-home-as-england-hope-to-recover-from-india-mauling-cricket-second-test (https://www.google.no/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/16/moeen-ali-returning-home-as-england-hope-to-recover-from-india-mauling-cricket-second-test)
-
I have a feeling Eng will pick Virdi as a far left choice for the next test. About time he got a chance too. If he cannot get picked in a Test in India/Sri Lanka, he should seriously be considering his career choices!
-
I have a feeling Eng will pick Virdi as a far left choice for the next test. About time he got a chance too. If he cannot get picked in a Test in India/Sri Lanka, he should seriously be considering his career choices!
Third test is the most likely for them to go with one spinner and Root surely? If so it has to be Leach.
-
I have a feeling Eng will pick Virdi as a far left choice for the next test. About time he got a chance too. If he cannot get picked in a Test in India/Sri Lanka, he should seriously be considering his career choices!
It's not worth being a professional cricketer unless you play for England?
Having seen a fair bit of Amar Vitdi, I'm of the the opinion that he's nowhere near good enough to be playing for England. Mind you, I can remember being surprised when Dom Bess started being mentioned.
-
I’d imagine if moeen chooses to play the IPL the English media will go at him
I should think so too!
-
I should think so too!
Why!! He has gone home as per the management's rotation agreement before the tours started.
The IPL has been factored into the workload of all the players who already have contracts ie. Stokes, Buttler. So why should it be any different for Mo
-
I should think so too!
Why would that be?
-
It is very disappointing that Moeen seems to be carrying the can for i. a scheduled rotation to spend some time out of the bubble and ii. making himself available to play in the IPL when both are applicable to the rest of the squad.
The first has to be a sensible approach even if it is frustrating as supporters not to have have strongest group avaliable for the whole tour. I think attitudes to mental health have progressed sufficiently to respect this.
The second is more a matter of opinion, but it has to be consistent. If it is fine for Stokes to play in the IPL in the middle of a busy international year, then there should be no criticism of any other member of the squad for doing the same
-
Why would that be?
Because playing for England should be much more important than playing in the IPL.
-
Why!! He has gone home as per the management's rotation agreement before the tours started.
The IPL has been factored into the workload of all the players who already have contracts ie. Stokes, Buttler. So why should it be any different for Mo
F*** the IPL.
-
As far as I’m aware Test contract players get £700,000 + bonuses. Limited overs contract players get £170,000 + bonuses.
Therefore Moeen seems to know he’s unlikely to get many opportunities in Test cricket this summer and in the Ashes.
So if an IPL side is willing to pay him 6 figures why should he leave that on the table ?
-
Because playing for England should be much more important than playing in the IPL.
He's in his mid-30s, coming to the end of his international career and probably approaching the point where he's thinking about retirement. I think any reasonable person would be thinking about their and their family's financial future.
-
Money, money, money...
And you wonder why we've got no good spinners?
Absolutely laughable.
-
He's in his mid-30s, coming to the end of his international career and probably approaching the point where he's thinking about retirement. I think any reasonable person would be thinking about their and their family's financial future.
'Any reasonable person' shouldn't be playing for England rhen.
-
Because playing for England should be much more important than playing in the IPL.
England cancelled Moeen’s test contract.
I think the attitude towards the IPL has changed and there is now far more accommodation for the players likely to play in it.
If you cast you mind back to one of the KP flash points, this was definitely one of them.
Post KP England relaxed the rules whether a player is test contracted or not
-
If you cast you mind back to one of the KP flash points, this was definitely one of them.
And look what a **** he was. Good riddance!
-
I can see this whole Moeen thing escalating quite quickly.
Why can’t they just treat everyone as equal?
-
F*** the IPL.
Or.. maybe in a year when there's a T20 world cup in India...
The exposure to the conditions and world's best players in that format in the conditions is actually a good thing
-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56097118 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56097118)
Read this morning that Moeen was only asked on the final day of the second test to stay on for the final two tests. If this is true, then it seems extraordinary given the planning that goes into these tours and the decision made a week previous to drop Bess that the decision was made so late in the day to ask Moeen to remain on the tour
-
Exactly @SD - it's amazing how they're spinning this back onto Moeen as if he's 'chosen' to leave the squad. He's done no different to Buttler, Curran, Bairstow etc - yet he's somehow the scapegoat (again!)
Just another example of shocking man management from within the England camp. Imagine the confidence levels of Bess now... "you're only playing because the guy that was meant to go home didn't agree to stay on at last minute"
-
Or.. maybe in a year when there's a T20 world cup in India...
The exposure to the conditions and world's best players in that format in the conditions is actually a good thing
Great! More exposure to that format.
-
Exactly @SD . "you're only playing because the guy that was meant to go home didn't agree to stay on at last minute"
He must know he's only playing because there's no-one else, anyway?
-
'Any reasonable person' shouldn't be playing for England rhen.
Do you consider the same for Stokes, Buttler, Archer, Curran, Bairstow etc... who all have IPL contracts??
-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56097118 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56097118)
Read this morning that Moeen was only asked on the final day of the second test to stay on for the final two tests. If this is true, then it seems extraordinary given the planning that goes into these tours and the decision made a week previous to drop Bess that the decision was made so late in the day to ask Moeen to remain on the tour
Should Mo get back here and make any announcement on his test future...ie he will just be a limited overs player the fallout may be much worse.
I don’t believe Root meant it to come out how it did, Smith however has previous.
I think Root in the aftermath of a heavy defeat,trying to manage rotation, just used the wrong wording and has put that right.
If you look at both the handling of Bess and Moeen it’s been shambolic-starting with Bess being told to go away and get better-that’s where it started and went downhill from then onwards.
-
Do you consider the same for Stokes, Buttler, Archer, Curran, Bairstow etc... who all have IPL contracts??
Yes, if they'd rather play IPL than for England.
-
You have a very simple view of the world.
-
Half the side has been wiped out :)
-
Half the side has been wiped out :)
I don't think so. GIve them a choice and they'd come down on rhe side of playing for England.
-
You have a very simple view of the world.
Not really.
-
I hate the idea that if you don't see money as the most important thing then you are somehow simple, naive or immature.
-
Threads like this make me wish there was a dislike button as well as a like :(
-
I hate the idea that if you don't see money as the most important thing then you are somehow simple, naive or immature.
Or more accurately, you think that your wants as a cricket fan are more important than the players' desire to earn money to support and provide for their future and their families.
Claiming that somebody who wants to earn great money for a few weeks work shouldn't be playing for England highlights exactly how ridiculous a stance that is, never mind the fact that participation in franchise cricket exposes England players to novel conditions and gives them experience against elite level opposition.
-
Or more accurately, you think that your wants as a cricket fan are more important than the players' desire to earn money to support and provide for their future and their families.
Claiming that somebody who wants to earn great money for a few weeks work shouldn't be playing for England highlights exactly how ridiculous a stance that is, never mind the fact that participation in franchise cricket exposes England players to novel conditions and gives them experience against elite level opposition.
It's that he's chosen not to play for England that irks me. Not the simple fact that he's playing in the IPL.
-
"Experience against elite level opposition"! Hilarious!
Any chance of bowling an over without a long-hop or a full-toss in it?
-
It's that he's chosen not to play for England that irks me. Not the simple fact that he's playing in the IPL.
He's not leaving the tour to go and play IPL though is he?
Consider that he's now been away from home for quite some time with work, it's been arranged since before he went that he would be heading home to his family now.
He's had to deal with Covid and his family have had to know that he's in another part of the world sick with a virus that has killed 100,000 people in the UK alone while not being able to see him. He's also got a young daughter he won't have seen for weeks and weeks but will have had in his head that he'd be getting to go home and spend time with her.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to change his plans, spend more time away from family and miss out on time with his daughter because the ECB didn't plan this tour properly and had to ask him to stay on with a day or two notice.
-
"Experience against elite level opposition"! Hilarious!
Any chance of bowling an over without a long-hop or a full-toss in it?
Care to explain how exactly the IPL doesn't involve elite players?
Take it you're now going with the stance that Rabada, Archer, Nortje, Bumrah, Kohli, De Villiers, etc are not elite T20 players? Aye, right enough 🤣
-
I perhaps should have been more sympathetic to him having Covid?
It's not really me hating on Moeen Ali. It's the principle that England is no longer the most important thing.
-
Care to explain how exactly the IPL doesn't involve elite players?
Take it you're now going with the stance that Rabada, Archer, Nortje, Bumrah, Kohli, De Villiers, etc are not elite T20 players? Aye, right enough 🤣
That's not what I said at all.
Hilarious that we couldn't see some of this elite performance in the last Test match. Against elite level opposition.
-
Cricinfo are suggesting today that England's IPL contingent could miss the home NZ tests, which would make me very grumpy indeed. Sad as it is though, it's daft to expect players not to play in it these days - particularly Moeen who currently doesn't have a central contract.
-
That's not what I said at all.
Hilarious that we couldn't see some of this elite performance in the last Test match. Against elite level opposition.
But the IPL isn't a test tournament, I think we all realise that there are now different skillsets required for the various formats. Adil Rashid is an absolute gun in white ball because of his variations but his lack of consistency and inability to bowl long spells due to his shoulder mean he isn't a good test option.
The players who are going to the IPL are going to be important to the T20 squad who have a real shot at winning another global tournament over the next couple of years.
-
That's not what I said at all.
Hilarious that we couldn't see some of this elite performance in the last Test match. Against elite level opposition.
Yo, Donald... That is what you said what you derided his elite player comment,
Stop trying to back out when a good counter argument is given
-
And it's also about Test cricket not being seen as morecimportant than T20. (Because T20 is where the money is.)
There was a film about it...
-
Cricinfo are suggesting today that England's IPL contingent could miss the home NZ tests, which would make me very grumpy indeed. Sad as it is though, it's daft to expect players not to play in it these days - particularly Moeen who currently doesn't have a central contract.
That would be pretty extreme but part of me would also be very excited to see the like of Ollie Robinson given a chance in the test team.
-
Yo, Donald... That is what you said what you derided his elite player comment,
Stop trying to back out when a good counter argument is given
I'm not at all. I was suggesting it was hilarious that you don't think Test match cricket is elite cricket. And, in light of that, hilarious that Moeen Ali us unable to perform better in it.
-
part of me would also be very excited to see the like of Ollie Robinson given a chance in the test team.
Not least because it will be opportunity to see him play.
-
Cricinfo are suggesting today that England's IPL contingent could miss the home NZ tests, which would make me very grumpy indeed. Sad as it is though, it's daft to expect players not to play in it these days - particularly Moeen who currently doesn't have a central contract.
Looking at the list of players involved though, worst case scenario an XI of the current squad could still look like:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Lawrence
Pope
Foakes
Leach
Stone
Broad
Anderson
So apart from a very long tail (which Bess could address if a major concern) and no allrounder it’s not too bad. I would sugggest that if Rajasthan don’t make the playoffs then it would hardly be noticed. I get the principled argument but in real terms I don’t think it should be that much of a drama.
-
Cricinfo are suggesting today that England's IPL contingent could miss the home NZ tests, which would make me very grumpy indeed. Sad as it is though, it's daft to expect players not to play in it these days - particularly Moeen who currently doesn't have a central contract.
Does seem to devalue the Tests a bit. They were already squeezed in at the last minute. Any ideas why they were scheduled atall?
-
Looking at the list of players involved though, worst case scenario an XI of the current squad could still look like:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Lawrence
Pope
Foakes
Leach
Stone
Broad
Anderson
So apart from a very long tail (which Bess could address if a major concern) and no allrounder it’s not too bad. I would sugggest that if Rajasthan don’t make the playoffs then it would hardly be noticed. I get the principled argument but in real terms I don’t think it should be that much of a drama.
There might even be potential for Leach to sit out considering they are early season matches. Get a forth seamer in.
Would like to see Lawrence down the order in home conditions, think it will be easier to judge him rather than thrown in at 3 away to India where he has looked a bit out of his depth. Although not the only one
-
Any ideas why they were scheduled at all?
This is where we're heading.
-
This is where we're heading.
The NZ Tests weren't in the original schedule.
There was already a pretty full summer vrs SL, Pak and India which were arranged last year. The NZ Tests were only announced in the last month or so and weren't in the original ticket ballot. Im just wondering why that is
Not sure if it has anything to do with NZ qualifying for the Test Championship final
-
Not sure if it has anything to do with NZ qualifying for the Test Championship final
I would guess this is why, they'll be coming over to the UK for it anyway so makes sense for them to play some more fixtures whilst they're here?
-
Will be something to do with TV money? Shouldn't have been arranged if England aren't able to put a full-strength team out.
-
Although not too impressed having bought 12 tickets to Edgbaston that half the players won't even be involved... not that we'll care past 11.30am and 4 pints lol
-
This is where we're heading.
Not sure that this is fair during a 17-test calendar year?
-
I would guess this is why, they'll be coming over to the UK for it anyway so makes sense for them to play some more fixtures whilst they're here?
That seems to make sense.
Although less so if all the best players from both sides are in India.
-
Although not too impressed having bought 12 tickets to Edgbaston that half the players won't even be involved... not that we'll care past 11.30am and 4 pints lol
You chose the right one! I looked at the Lords match but thought better of it.
Surely Williamson as skipper wont prioritise IPL?
-
Not sure that this is fair during a 17-test calendar year?
Fair point.
-
Good to see Silverwood has come out and apologised to Mo. Clear mistake to imply it was all Moeen's choice.
-
Okay, it's different now. This has been handled badly. But I still strongly disagree with the wider principle of players resting during England time rather than in franchise time.
-
Maybe not ideal but it's a better situation than the Windies have ended up with where loads of their top players have decided to go off and play franchise cricket all the time because concessions weren't made to allow them to earn life changing sums of money for a short period of work.
-
I have started to think since the beginning of the Silverwood era when it became clear that England would revert to a more traditional approach to Test cricket that the number of multi-format players should be minimised where possible to avoid these issues. I think Stokes is the only player who should unquestionably be in the Test and limited overs teams and Archer possibly.
This would avoid a situation like this where Moeen who is a peripheral Test player is being criticised for (potentially) prioritising 14+ games in the format in which he is the most valuable to England moving forward as he is considered a marginally better option currently than his counterpart in the Test squad.
I suppose the counter argument is potential resentment amongst those who could potentially get an IPL contract resenting being pigeon-holed as Test players.
-
I have started to think since the beginning of the Silverwood era when it became clear that England would revert to a more traditional approach to Test cricket that the number of multi-format players should be minimised where possible to avoid these issues. I think Stokes is the only player who should unquestionably be in the Test and limited overs teams and Archer possibly.
This would avoid a situation like this where Moeen who is a peripheral Test player is being criticised for (potentially) prioritising 14+ games in the format in which he is the most valuable to England moving forward as he is considered a marginally better option currently than his counterpart in the Test squad.
I suppose the counter argument is potential resentment amongst those who could potentially get an IPL contract resenting being pigeon-holed as Test players.
I think it's fine to play 2 formats (test and odi or T20 and odi) but noone should play all 3. It's too much and they're too different.
-
I hate the idea that if you don't see money as the most important thing then you are somehow simple, naive or immature.
Who’s to say that some of the players don’t actually enjoy playing in the IPL as much as tests?
-
Who’s to say that some of the players don’t actually enjoy playing in the IPL as much as tests?
They have the right to. And I have the right to dislike it.
-
They have the right to. And I have the right to dislike it.
You dislike it?
Reading through these last few pages of tripe I’d never have guessed that.
-
You dislike it?
Reading through these last few pages of tripe I’d never have guessed that.
Don't worry, I'm sure Amar Virdi will be just what you're looking for. :(
-
I'm pretty sure the majority of the English cricketing public would dislike it if England players preferred playing in the IPL to playing for England.
-
I'm pretty sure the majority of the English cricketing public would dislike it if England players preferred playing in the IPL to playing for England.
It’s positive that a lot of effort has been made to avoid them facing that potential reality then. This is one of the very few times I can remember there being a real direct conflict for years.
-
Will be something to do with TV money? Shouldn't have been arranged if England aren't able to put a full-strength team out.
ECB have ‘gifted’ the television rights to Sky outside of their usual contract as a thank you for the work they’ve put in over the last year or so. So it can’t be that. It does seem bizarre and a bit of an afterthought this series though.
-
On a hopefully more harmonious note, it looks like it will swing with the pink ball, Wood said on interview the ball is staying harder in the nets and the seamers are all keen. I think we only have one chance to get ahead in the series, in this next match.
So it's the best seamers we have and maybe just leach as the best spinner.
I actually think we should,but probably won't, leave out a batsman and go full tilt to get a win
Anderson
Broad
Stone
Wood
Woakes
Leach
Archer.
Archer being 12th man for me, then we pick the best. Stone did well last game I was very impressed, he has pace and accuracy, Wood out and out pace and can move it.
If we leave a batsman out Woakes could come in to cover that role, tough as it will be as he hasn't played for ages.
How do you think we will line up?
-
I would be massively surprised if the groundsman left any grass on the pitch come day 1 off the test.
-
I would be massively surprised if the groundsman left any grass on the pitch come day 1 off the test.
If that happens, we will see the effects (or not) of spin in a pink ball test for the first time ever. If pink ball under lights seams a lot more, would it turn more if it is a spinning pitch or less? Will there be any change in the drift and/or dip? Would it seam even if no grass on the pitch? With the many unknowns already, throw in a new stadium and largest one at that into the mix, and it makes matters really interesting. Can't wait to see how it all unfolds :)
-
If that happens, we will see the effects (or not) of spin in a pink ball test for the first time ever. If pink ball under lights seams a lot more, would it turn more if it is a spinning pitch or less? Will there be any change in the drift and/or dip? Would it seam even if no grass on the pitch? With the many unknowns already, throw in a new stadium and largest one at that into the mix, and it makes matters really interesting. Can't wait to see how it all unfolds :)
I can't wait either, we don't know about spin with the pink ball...I can't recall seeing much before maybe others have.
They are a load of unknowns, I can remember some one day games previously where the problem of dew on the ground made the ball difficult to grip.
But if it swings as expected we will be in the game. It's probably our only and best chance of a result
-
I suspect England would take playing on the pitch as it is now whereas the are likely to turn up for the toss and find that a day 6 pitch awaits them.
I am at a genuine loss to understand how 12 months ago Rabada gets banned for celebrating taking a wicket yet this week Kohli gets no action for abusing and intimidating an umpire
-
I suspect England would take playing on the pitch as it is now whereas the are likely to turn up for the toss and find that a day 6 pitch awaits them.
I am at a genuine loss to understand how 12 months ago Rabada gets banned for celebrating taking a wicket yet this week Kohli gets no action for abusing and intimidating an umpire
I’m not even remotely surprised kohli didn’t get sanctioned - BCCI run international cricket.
-
He seems to get away with pretty much whatever he wants.
As @LEACHY48 says...the BCCI is the most powerful organisation in cricket
-
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Archer
Leach
Wood
Anderson
Heres my team. I wouldnt be opposed to Bess playing but I dont see how England can pick him after recent events. Means some overs for Root which isnt a bad thing other than workload. Not having that reliable second spinner really is a major weakness in this part of the world. Even Shaun Udal did a job out here just being accurate and consistent.
Im assuming all those guys are fit, I know a couple are 50/50. I like pace, Broad looked innocuous last match and Woakes will be even more so. If Wood or Archer isn't fit Stone comes in.
You could make a case for Burns being given a longer run since coming back but I just feel Crawley will have the better career. If hes fit he plays ahead of Burns.
A bit harsh on Lawrence but for me hes competing with Stokes and Pope and isnt yet as good as either of them.
Im aware that its a long tail. The top 7 better get some runs!
-
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Archer
Leach
Wood
Anderson
Heres my team. I wouldnt be opposed to Bess playing but I dont see how England can pick him after recent events. Means some overs for Root which isnt a bad thing other than workload. Not having that reliable second spinner really is a major weakness in this part of the world. Even Shaun Udal did a job out here just being accurate and consistent.
Im assuming all those guys are fit, I know a couple are 50/50. I like pace, Broad looked innocuous last match and Woakes will be even more so. If Wood or Archer isn't fit Stone comes in.
You could make a case for Burns being given a longer run since coming back but I just feel Crawley will have the better career. If hes fit he plays ahead of Burns.
A bit harsh on Lawrence but for me hes competing with Stokes and Pope and isnt yet as good as either of them.
Im aware that its a long tail. The top 7 better get some runs!
I really like this team, unfortunately I think they will reckon Archer is too high at 8 and Woakes or Bess will play depending on the pitch. So Wood or Archer at 10.
Bairstow has to play surely, otherwise why bring him back? That is another thing about the rotation policy, what have they told the guys coming back with regards playing?
Burns is a harder one, but I also think Crawley is a better long term option.
-
Emilio Gay.
I've not seen him bat, but I've just read about him in The Cricketer, and want to be the first to shout his name. ;)
-
He seems to get away with pretty much whatever he wants.
As @LEACHY48 says...the BCCI is the most powerful organisation in cricket
The tour has at least confirmed the need for neutral match officials and match referees. Umpires make mistakes, when they aren't independent it will give rises to suspicions of a lack of impartiality. There can't really be any excuse for the conduct of the third umpire or Srinath as the match referee
-
Burns and Lawrence to make way for Bairstow and Crawley in the batting department.
Bowling is a but more difficult to call before seeing the state of the wicket on the morning of the game. Anderson, Archer, Leach and Bess would be my guess but Bess (who may not be in the best position to play after some high class man management) could make way for Wood if the pitch looks more seam friendly
-
As above, but with both spInners definitely playing.
-
Emilio Gay.
I've not seen him bat, but I've just read about him in The Cricketer, and want to be the first to shout his name. ;)
He was a quality 10yr old old when I coached him while I was at Uni. Not seen his batting this year in the BWT.
-
He was a quality 10yr old old when I coached him while I was at Uni. Not seen his batting this year in the BWT.
You were in Bedford? I recommend you read the article.
Don't think anyone would have seen him in last year's BWT. Maybe on a You Tube livestream?
-
Don't really understand this rest policy by England.
WTC Final is on stake. Must have your best squad and best 11 playing at any cost.
-
Don't really understand this rest policy by England.
WTC Final is on stake. Must have your best squad and best 11 playing at any cost.
Except winning 3-1/3-0/4-0 in India was never really achievable
And this is designed to get the best 11 on the field for 5 ashes tests
-
If you take into account the bubble situation and I think 17 test matches during this year I don't think it's even possible England could get there first choice team out all the time.
There's the one day and 2020 WC plus the Ashes at the end of it.
The ECB lost out in huge revenue last year so the packed home fixtures was on the cards.
For our seamers the rotation seems unavoidable, a squad knackered come the Ashes next winter will lose,no question about that.
-
As above, but with both spInners definitely playing.
I would like Bess to play but can England pick him after basically admitting in public he isn't good enough?
Id also like Mo and Buttler available for selection but again a higher presence has spoken in their wisdom
I wonder if we win the T20 World Cup will the selectors be praised for the rest schedule as they are now being derided?
-
I don't really want to open up my opinions on the rotation policy again, but a series against India should be as equal importance to a series against Australia. I hate this attitude that the Ashes is the one that 'really matters', and everything else is somehow of lesser significance. It's only really existed since 2005.
I expect I'll be in the minority again.
-
I don't really want to open up my opinions on the rotation policy again, but a series against India should be as equal importance to a series against Australia. I hate this attitude that the Ashes is the one that 'really matters', and everything else is somehow of lesser significance. It's only really existed since 2005.
I expect I'll be in the minority again.
It might be equal in terms of competitiveness and difficulty to win, particularly away.
But for the majority of fans and players of both teams the Ashes is what matters most. Its what players are remembered for and its what gets fans going. Not saying I agree with it but thats the reality. Ive been in Australia for both the last Ashes and the previous time India toured and the difference is marked.
-
I wonder if we win the T20 World Cup will the selectors be praised for the rest schedule as they are now being derided?
Not by me.
-
I don't really want to open up my opinions on the rotation policy again, but a series against India should be as equal importance to a series against Australia. I hate this attitude that the Ashes is the one that 'really matters', and everything else is somehow of lesser significance. It's only really existed since 2005.
I expect I'll be in the minority again.
I agree that the India series should be equally important as the Ashes, although I’m not convinced that this is a 2005 phenomenon - I’ve been following since 1998 and I don’t feel there is more hype now, it’s probably more a by-product of a more professional era with forward planning rather than the scattergun selection policy of the 90s.
-
It could be argued that a 'more professional' approach would be that a win is a win?
-
Interesting interview with Hales on Sky's YouTube - https://youtu.be/mE82T1HXmOY - genuinely does sound like he's grown up a bit. Can't help feeling if one of Bairstow or Roy get injured then he's clearly the best option available to open in the T20s.
-
It could be argued that a 'more professional' approach would be that a win is a win?
I would draw a comparison with elite football which I would say is a long way ahead of cricket in terms of professionalism. Do managers play their strongest XI every game or do they rest, rotate, give experience to young players and prioritise between competitions/fixtures?
-
Manchester City don't see a game against Chelsea as of less significance than a game against Manchester United. It's about the 3 points. Sentimentality doesn't come into it.
-
Manchester City don't see a game against Chelsea as of less significance than a game against Manchester United. It's about the 3 points. Sentimentality doesn't come into it.
But they also don't take the FA Cup as seriously as the Champions League.
-
Manchester City don't see a game against Chelsea as of less significance than a game against Manchester United. It's about the 3 points. Sentimentality doesn't come into it.
Ok, this is a misrepresentation of my point. As I said, I agree that the India series should be seen as equally important to the Ashes series. What I’m saying is that 20 years ago there would have been no concept of rest/rotation (the first I can remember of it is Alec Stewart and Darren Gough I think asking for an India tour off and they were told they could pick formats but not tours) so you wouldn’t have had any cause to complain about not picking the strongest available XI for every single game. Now they do plan preparation towards more difficult series (which I agree the Indian series should be seen as one, although worth remembering the exceptional circumstances at the moment). The latter is definitely a more professional approach.
-
But they also don't take the FA Cup as seriously as the Champions League.
Which is a shame. And not a 'like for like' argument in any case.
-
Ok, this is a misrepresentation of my point. As I said, I agree that the India series should be seen as equally important to the Ashes series. What I’m saying is that 20 years ago there would have been no concept of rest/rotation (the first I can remember of it is Alec Stewart and Darren Gough I think asking for an India tour off and they were told they could pick formats but not tours) so you wouldn’t have had any cause to complain about not picking the strongest available XI for every single game. Now they do plan preparation towards more difficult series (which I agree the Indian series should be seen as one, although worth remembering the exceptional circumstances at the moment). The latter is definitely a more professional approach.
But I'm not arguing against rest per se.
I dislike England players being rested and then playing in the IPL. And I dislike all other Test series being so self-consciously seen as 'preparation for the Ashes'.
I don't care too much about the T20 World Cup.
-
Which is a shame. And not a 'like for like' argument in any case.
But then neither is Man City/Man Utd a like for like for Aus-India. The formats of the competitions don't lend themselves to direct comparison, you'd never have Liverpool playing Everton for five games in a row for example.
-
But then neither is Man City/Man Utd a like for like for Aus-India. The formats of the competitions don't lend themselves to direct comparison, you'd never have Liverpool playing Everton for five games in a row for example.
No, Man CIty v Man United is England v Australia in my comparison. Traditional rivals.
I am comparing teams . You are comparing competitions?
The level of perceived importance has nothing to do with the number of matches.
-
I also fear that having more than one national team is a cynical ploy to squeeze as much money as possible out of the England 'brand'.
-
But I'm not arguing against rest per se.
I dislike England players being rested and then playing in the IPL. And I dislike all other Test series being so self-consciously seen as 'preparation for the Ashes'.
I don't care too much about the T20 World Cup.
Again, I don’t think the ‘preparation for the Ashes’ thing is as widespread as you’re suggesting and I think it’s more of a fan thing than the players (who don’t get me wrong obviously look forward to it on a personal level). The only major discussion that I remember being geared towards preparing for the Ashes is trying to develop a bowling attack that can succeed in those conditions but I think that is prudent anyway as the hit the deck quicks will be useful in almost all conditions.
If anything I think this is a legacy of not having a competition to pull Test series together so I think that team management almost had to pick an arbitrary cycle over which the team could develop and peak and due to their importance to the public Ashes series provided a logical endpoint for that. Interestingly the 2009-11 team aimed towards reaching number 1 status rather than the 2010/11 or 2013 Ashes. It will be interesting to see if this changes as the Test championship evolves.
Sorry for bringing in the football analogy by the way, unwise!
-
Except winning 3-1/3-0/4-0 in India was never really achievable
And this is designed to get the best 11 on the field for 5 ashes tests
That is a poor mindset. Then what's the point playing don't tour India or send England C team or under 19s.
A WTC Final is on stake and pressure is more on India as they playing home and also need to win to get to the final of the WTC. The first test showed England can win in India and you need to try atleast not this attitude and mindset oh we going to lose so let's rotate players.
-
But they also don't take the FA Cup as seriously as the Champions League.
A place in the World Test Championship final is in place. So this series was much more important then Ashes. Would you rather win the first WTC or Ashes.
WTC is going to be equivalent to ODI World Cup or more.
-
That is a poor mindset. Then what's the point playing don't tour India or send England C team or under 19s.
A WTC Final is on stake and pressure is more on India as they playing home and also need to win to get to the final of the WTC. The first test showed England can win in India and you need to try atleast not this attitude and mindset oh we going to lose so let's rotate players.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but it doesn't stop it being true
-
A place in the World Test Championship final is in place. So this series was much more important then Ashes. Would you rather win the first WTC or Ashes.
WTC is going to be equivalent to ODI World Cup or more.
Sorry but I couldn't disagree more.
Winning The Ashes down under is the Holy Grail as far as I am concerned. The World Test Championship is nothing more than a competition (and not a very good one at that as the points system is screwed) to try and get some interest in test cricket in countries where there isn't any. The WTC won't change that there are far far bigger issues.
That is not to say I agree with the rotation though, but in a year of 17 tests (which is crazy) and a 2020WC and IPL all in bio-bubbles, then needs must.
-
Winning a game of football is a means to an end be it a league or Cup. I guess until the world test championship catches the imagination, test series are the end in themselves.
I would have liked to have had a full squad available for the whole of this tour. Realistically though for me this ranks behind the Ashes, T20 world Cup and the English summer.
-
A place in the World Test Championship final is in place. So this series was much more important then Ashes. Would you rather win the first WTC or Ashes.
WTC is going to be equivalent to ODI World Cup or more.
I do agree sometimes the rotation does seem less than perfect but with Covid and the sheer amount of cricket in the next 12 months I can't see they have any options other than to rotate players,mainly the bowlers...
Players like Anderson and probably broad don't want to be rotated but they are towards the end of their careers and so far have been pretty much injury free. Anderson is 38 and if he does get an Ashes place it would be remarkable testament to his physical fitness and maybe......down to rotation thru this year. Similar with Wood who has been injury prone and seems to be getting less so in the last 12 months.
The WTC is nowhere near as important as an ODI trophy or an Ashes away win. They are both rare but I've been supporting England since about 1980 and I didn't think we would win the WC in my lifetime :)
-
A place in the World Test Championship final is in place. So this series was much more important then Ashes. Would you rather win the first WTC or Ashes.
WTC is going to be equivalent to ODI World Cup or more.
Ashes every time
WTC means nothing
-
Sky just announced they are showing the White ball stuff.
'Sky Sports to show England's white-ball series in India'
http://www.skysports.com/share/12221031 (http://www.skysports.com/share/12221031)
-
So the rumours are Burns and Lawrence dropped for Crawley and Bairstow
-
So the rumours are Burns and Lawrence dropped for Crawley and Bairstow
Both sensible changes I think, Burns and Lawrence have struggled so you're not losing anything by giving them some time off. Hopefully gives Lawrence some time to go away and work on his game as Pope did after his introduction to tests.
-
So the rumours are Burns and Lawrence dropped for Crawley and Bairstow
Both fairly straightforward decisions for me. Lawrence is a fairly obvious one given he only played the first two tests because of injury to Crawley and hasn't made a score to keep his place. Burns is on a retched run of form and falling to Royston Chase in 4 of his 5 innings last summer was a fair indication of his game against spin. Crawley and Bairstow both look more composed players of spin
-
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Archer
Leach
Broad
Anderson
-
I feel like 3 seamers and Leach can only end badly, unless Root and Stokes are going to churn out a lot more than they already have...
-
Good toss to win! Should keep the pitch moaners slightly more quiet
Not sure about England playing only one spinner, root might have to bowl quite a bit
I see this pink SG ball going soft pretty quickly so unlikely turn as much
-
Good toss to win! Should keep the pitch moaners slightly more quiet
Not sure about England playing only one spinner, root might have to bowl quite a bit
I see this pink SG ball going soft pretty quickly so unlikely turn as much
Root seemed to think in his pre match interview that the ball was staying hard for longer than the red ball, fingers crossed.
-
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Archer
Leach
Wood
Anderson
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Archer
Leach
Broad
Anderson
Almost got it right. Broad over Wood, lets hope the pink ball moves in India! Feel a bit for Bess, the background noise has made him unpickable but we will miss a second spinner.
Won the toss which is very handy
-
I do not like the look of this side much. 90s tail and 4 seamers in India :(
-
Well, some interesting bounce on offer
-
I do not like the look of this side much. 90s tail and 4 seamers in India :(
Giddins
Tufnell
Fraser
Mullally
-
That was a gift
-
Good start 🙄
-
Looks an awful starter does Sibley either seems to get a few or get very little at the moment for Sibley.
-
Looks an awful starter does Sibley either seems to get a few or get very little at the moment for Sibley.
Imagine the same is true of most openers against this Indian attack though, Bumrah and Ishant is a pretty handy opening pair. Sibley is always going to look ropey until he's got a few with the technique he has.
-
Conversely, how good does Crawley look? Another one like Root and Pope I could watch bat all day.
-
It’s early days for Crawley but he looks technically pretty good. Plays quite tight to his body
-
Bairstow is a moron
-
Sake... Would have been nice for somebody to bat time before Root came in for a change.
-
At least Bairstow wasn’t bowled. Progress.
-
At least Bairstow wasn’t bowled. Progress.
"I've been working hard on new modes of dismissal" generally something you want to hear from your bowlers 😂
-
Wicket looks an absolute road. If we get shot out on this we won’t be batting again until day 4.
-
Looks another dreadful wicket with dust flying everywhere, the ball going through the top and inconsistent bounce on the first morning of a test match.
Must have been a very difficult call for England to play one spinner given how dry this surface is. I think it is more a reflection of the faith in Bess than the need for 4 seamers nut Broad may have success because it is hard to see the bounce getting anything other than more inconsistent as the game goes on
-
There’s some spin, a bit of movement and signs of uneven bounce plenty there for the bowlers
We are going to have to rely on Root again here I think to get us something decent
-
There’s some spin, a bit of movement and signs of uneven bounce plenty there for the bowlers
We are going to have to rely on Root again here I think to get us something decent
I'm hoping for another big score from Zak 'Son of Trescothick' Crawley 😅
-
Crawley's looked brilliant
-
Wicket looks an absolute road. If we get shot out on this we won’t be batting again until day 4.
I certainly wouldn’t say it’s a road, looks very similar to the last wicket, spinning and going through the top after 16overs. However Aswin got a Ton on a similar looking wicket on the 3rd or 4th day.
These two will certainly need to bat for a while to set up a decent 1st innings score which given we have 3 seamers and leach and root it’s fair to say it looks like we will need.
-
Root gone. Yikes.
Thank goodness for Sir Zak Crawley and Sir Ben Stokes.
-
Stokes going all Moeen Ali on the spinners would be very fun while it lasted.
-
I would like to retract my statement about this being a road. Not the bit about batting next on day 4 though.
Crawley gone.
-
Least England might be bowling under lights. The only chance they have to save this day.
Not winning many matches 4 down in the first session. Poor cricket
-
Looks like we'll be bowling tonight then, ah
-
India’s spinners seem pretty decent...
-
Not sure this has been down to poor cricket from England, none of the dismissals have been stupid shots. Axar bowling really well and it's hardly a secret that England struggle against left arm spin.
-
I’m going to say it this isn’t a very good wicket. Not for the fact of the spin no problems with that but the inconsistent bounce after 25 or so overs isnt good.
Some how we need to try and get this 1st innings score to 275 - 300 but with a long tail and only Foakes to come really will be a real battle. India have once again bowled superbly
-
Not sure this has been down to poor cricket from England, none of the dismissals have been stupid shots. Axar bowling really well and it's hardly a secret that England struggle against left arm spin.
Agreed - the second test was full of rash shots, with the majority of the balls that misbehaved doing way too much to catch an edge. Here, whilst losing four wickets on the first morning is not a good look, I'd say three of the four were genuinely got out
-
2 players missing straight balls and sibley out to a bit of bounce with the new ball.
I’d argue only root got a good one but yes it’s the pitch’s fault again.
I see India struggling under lights with the pink ball so if England can get to 230 and have 10-15 overs at them
-
Suffice to say I don't think one spinner was the correct call to make
-
Win the toss.. bat long.. well were doing one of those things
India have been superb!
-
F*cking embarrassing...
-
Pope also misses a straight one. Top quality bowling mind you
6 down - stokes goes too. Another one playing for turn
-
Another key wicket gone on umpire's call, getting none of the luck they need here.
-
Can't bat for toffee
-
Needed someone to play a few shots. Big tail waiting now
-
Positives so far:
- Crawley looked great
- Bairstow wasn’t bowled
- We didn’t have to wake up at 4am to watch this ****.
-
Ok I’ll take 130 now please.
This is quite poor batting from England. Is it a modern thing to play so much off the back foot against spin, root and stokes playing back to balls that good have been played forward to?! Seem to remember root saying something about it on a sky sports podcast.
Come on archer, not seen his potential with the bat yet for England
-
No need for the excuses this time. Simply not good enough
-
Ok I’ll take 130 now please.
This is quite poor batting from England. Is it a modern thing to play so much off the back foot against spin, root and stokes playing back to balls that good have been played forward to?! Seem to remember root saying something about it on a sky sports podcast.
Come on archer, not seen his potential with the bat yet for England
Root definitely said he'd made a point of doing it in Sri Lanka. Not sure it's as clever a tactic on pitches with inconsistent bounce.
-
This is abject
-
Another straighter ball doing the damage
-
Our selection policy is absolutely crazy.
Our batting is abject
The Indians have bowled at the stumps and kept it tight - and we have applied the vaseline.
-
Why bother eh
-
At least we get to listen to Sir Alastair Cook And Strauss ‘jousting’ like a couple of public schoolboys.
-
Would a more horses for courses selection to deal with spin have been sensible for the tour as a whole?
Rotation policy is commendable, great that they take mental health and wellbeing seriously, but could they have taken more reserves who are known for their skill against spin to give them options?
-
Would personally have foakes at 3. He looks the most comfortable against spin. Keeps getting left with the tail
-
Steamroll them under lights then yeah? Ah
-
Would personally have foakes at 3. He looks the most comfortable against spin. Keeps getting left with the tail
Batting first that's certainly an option, just worry that batting 3 and batting long and then having to keep will stop England getting the best of Foakes in either discipline.
-
He’s one of our better batsmen ..in danger of being stranded 10 not out at the moment
-
Would a more horses for courses selection to deal with spin have been sensible for the tour as a whole?
Rotation policy is commendable, great that they take mental health and wellbeing seriously, but could they have taken more reserves who are known for their skill against spin to give them options?
Not taking Jennings looks dafter by the innings. Surely a better bet than sticking Bairstow/Lawrence in out of position at 3.
-
Not taking Jennings looks dafter by the innings. Surely a better bet than sticking Bairstow/Lawrence in out of position at 3.
Sending Moeen and Buttler home also looking very strange. But then if those two get rested and win England the WT20 then it'll look like a masterstroke.
-
Can't wait to see us do nothing with the ball in these conditions
-
Sending Moeen and Buttler home also looking very strange. But then if those two get rested and win England the WT20 then it'll look like a masterstroke.
That I don't have a problem with, Foakes is very able backup to Buttler and expecting guys to stare at hotel walls for months on end without their performance suffering is naiive. Moeen's hardly irreplacable either, also wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't ballsed up dropping Bess when there's have backup.
-
Well that was crap
-
Top quality stuff from Axar in his second test! Like for like replacement for jadeja
Very poor from England.
They better hope it swings around corner under lights. Not picking Bess looks to be a mistake - why was broad even picked after doing nothing last test
-
In this position England have got to hold on to the belief that in the pink balls tests there can be a session of carnage and if India find themselves on the end of one of those then it is a way back into the game.
I think Rohit showed the way on a pitch like this in the last test by going out and having a swing. If you prod around you will get a ball that will get you out. Better to chance your arm, spread the field to get rid of the close catchers and put some pressure back on the fielding side
-
As if Archer hasn't got the new ball. Ugh.
-
Let's play more T20 cricket. :(
-
Ball hit the grass but soft signal was out. For me it should’ve stayed out.
Only one view of that too!! Rubbish umpiring
-
Disgusting decision by the 3rd umpire. One look.
-
Is it the same joker in the 3rd umpire chair as last test?
-
How many views did they look at for the Pujara catch. I'd walk off
-
This series had been a bit of a throw back to the days where the officiating was less impartial than players umpiring themselves in a club game.
-
The more you look at that the more it’s on the grass.
Poor process in making the right decision.
-
The more you look at that the more it’s on the grass.
Poor process in making the right decision.
Yup, think that's spot on. DRS system is there to eliminate mistakes, should be using the technology to be giving the closest thing possible to absolute certainty on the decision. Not looking at one angle with no zoom for approximately two seconds before calling it.
If nothing else, it lends itself to allegations of bias and brings the whole process into disrepute.
-
The more you look at that the more it’s on the grass.
Poor process in making the right decision.
Yeah - agree. Think it touched the grass but could have investigated more.
-
I wish there was a way to mute the horrendously biased commentary. I think they’ve even ordered Swann to tone it down.
-
Can we also mute Pant??!
-
Yup, think that's spot on. DRS system is there to eliminate mistakes, should be using the technology to be giving the closest thing possible to absolute certainty on the decision. Not looking at one angle with no zoom for approximately two seconds before calling it.
If nothing else, it lends itself to allegations of bias and brings the whole process into disrepute.
The worst part of that was the decision it was made on the first half of the footage. He didn’t even view the entire footage where it actually showed the ball touching the ground.
I see an English umpire in the PSL, so no excuse for international umpires not travelling
-
I wonder if the English umpires will return similar levels of "competence" during the series in England.... :D
-
I wonder if the English umpires will return similar levels of "competence" during the series in England.... :D
If Broad and Anderson are going to rotate during the summer, I wouldn't mind them rotating their games off in the third umpire chair
-
The straight ball strikes again!!
Bet they wish they had Bess. Need a couple more before close
-
2!
-
2 brings 8 yeah
-
Heads down everywhere, sorry state of affairs
-
https://twitter.com/graynics/status/1364498481914740738?s=19
Is it just my eyes or is Crawley using a shorter bat than Sibley? Or is Sibley using a long blade or something similar?
-
Gets even worse with pope dropping kohli. Drops a sitter
-
Could today get any worse
-
Could today get any worse
Short of Root collapsing, not really. That was village from Pope, sadly.
-
Not saying that Rohit stumping was out but would it kill the third umpire to look at more than one camera angle before making every decision in favour of India?
-
I thought he’d lifted his foot but in the trench where they’ve been marking the guard made it look grounded.
Should have looked at more angles.
-
Eng definitely missing 2nd spin bowler, can't imagine how a team can go with just one spinner in Indian tests. Bess could have created some trouble/picked wickets on this pitch even if you consider the few loose balls he bowls.
Imagine it will be a strange case where fastbowlers need to bowl in between to give rest to lone spinner here.
-
As an aside, this commentary team is (No Swearing Please) awful. Never thought I'd be desperate to hear Rob Key but Christ...
-
Eng definitely missing 2nd spin bowler, can't imagine how a team can go with just one spinner in Indian tests. Bess could have created some trouble/picked wickets on this pitch even if you consider the few loose balls he bowls.
Imagine it will be a strange case where fastbowlers need to bowl in between to give rest to lone spinner here.
Yes but England I'm afraid have mishandled both Bess and Mo. You can't drop Bess,tell him to get better with no matches for him to get better in, then pick him for this game otherwise they would have to admit it was wrong in the first place.
I cannot for the life of me work out why they could not say something else about Bess....resting him, got a fake injury, cat died back home.
Anything other than how they handled it. It's poor. Very poor.
-
I have wondered if there’s more to the Bess story than meets the eye.
-
Terrible day for England, yet not entirely out of it. If (BIG if) they can bowl out India in the first session tomorrow then it might still be game on, but that would be bordering on miracle territory, and we’d still be relying on these batsmen on six-figure salaries not missing straight ones...
-
Yes but England I'm afraid have mishandled both Bess and Mo. You can't drop Bess,tell him to get better with no matches for him to get better in, then pick him for this game otherwise they would have to admit it was wrong in the first place.
I cannot for the life of me work out why they could not say something else about Bess....resting him, got a fake injury, cat died back home.
Anything other than how they handled it. It's poor. Very poor.
Agree, the way they handled Bess after 1st test when he picked up wickets and then not giving him chance to improve. Plus he isn't a dud with bat either..
-
He is better than handy with the bat we have seen. Our tail looks a bit long in this game, Woakes could of done a job as a seamer and a little more wi the bat than the other bowlers.
Hard to come in thou with sitting out the SL matches prior to this tour
-
Not saying that Rohit stumping was out but would it kill the third umpire to look at more than one camera angle before making every decision in favour of India?
Quite agree - he clearly lifted his foot, and whilst he may have gotten it down, it was touch and go at best.
I thought the umpire encapsulated the position very well when giving Gill not out to Broad (which looked stone dead on the telly but was umpires call) - a smug grin and a shake of the head.
-
Quite agree - he clearly lifted his foot, and whilst he may have gotten it down, it was touch and go at best.
I thought the umpire encapsulated the position very well when giving Gill not out to Broad (which looked stone dead on the telly but was umpires call) - a smug grin and a shake of the head.
It's not exactly doing much to draw in new fans to test cricket when the pitch has a huge crater in it on the first day and the umpiring process contradicts itself about 5 times an innings.
-
He is better than handy with the bat we have seen. Our tail looks a bit long in this game, Woakes could of done a job as a seamer and a little more wi the bat than the other bowlers.
Hard to come in thou with sitting out the SL matches prior to this tour
Woakes has now played 0 out of 5 matches on these Tours. Although the first one he was unavailable for. The other seamers have all played at least 1 match including 80mph Sam Curran.
You have to think England have now (rightly so imo) pigeonholed him as a home only bowler. And was probably only taken on these tours as he has a full central contract.
In any case a like for like isnt the way to go in another daytime Test. If a seamer is left out for the 4th Test it should almost certainly be a spinner brought in. You cant strengthen the tail in India to weaken the bowling - where are the 20 wickets going to come from?
If Bess is still not pickable they need to throw a wildcard in in Parkinson or Virdi. At least give yourself the right set up for the conditions.
I have wondered if there’s more to the Bess story than meets the eye.
This thought had crossed my mind aswell. The PR machine had always backed him until suddenly it didn't. Strange
-
I mean.. India still have time to throw this game away but what a joke by England yet again. Bairstow.. laughable .. I mean, he avg's 35 ffs
sadly, in SL yet again.. people were saying what a great side England were.. It really was just how bad SL are and yet, I'm sure people will be saying how great this side is... Curran still in the test squad again, like Bairstow.. says it' all about the quality about..
India prepared a feather bed first up and played badly.. they aren't making that mistake again
-
Woakes has now played 0 out of 5 matches on these Tours. Although the first one he was unavailable for. The other seamers have all played at least 1 match including 80mph Sam Curran.
You have to think England have now (rightly so imo) pigeonholed him as a home only bowler. And was probably only taken on these tours as he has a full central contract.
In any case a like for like isnt the way to go in another daytime Test. If a seamer is left out for the 4th Test it should almost certainly be a spinner brought in. You cant strengthen the tail in India to weaken the bowling - where are the 20 wickets going to come from?
If Bess is still not pickable they need to throw a wildcard in in Parkinson or Virdi. At least give yourself the right set up for the conditions.
This thought had crossed my mind aswell. The PR machine had always backed him until suddenly it didn't. Strange
For the first time(I think) I'm in agreement with you. We need 20 wickets absolutely.....with 112 in this innings we not actually giving them a chance thou, wickets needed, runs thou in India are crucial first innings.
With a bit of umpiring on our side,a catch or two taken we may of got them 5 down. But that's all ifs and buts-we didn't.
The treatment of Bess..the go away and get better stuff....baffles me, I havnt seen England react like that with a dropped player in my memory..perhaps he said something after he was dropped who knows.
Mo would of played this game,second spinner and a chance of some hitting with the bat..he's gone.
I guess that does leave Virdi but if was going to play here he should of played one game in SL-you don't want a debut in a crucial game-this was always the most important tour by miles.
Which leaves us IMO in a bit of a mess. We need seam in this match but we also know after the first game it's going to turn..so 2 spinners and our best seamers-whether Woakes is in there is a matter of opinion,I think he should be.
I saw enough movement in the air this morning to think the seamers would have an impact on the game, yet their spinners cleaned up again....now we are left a spinner short.
The only thing I think we can do to try and get into the game now is short spells from archer,broad,Anderson and Root takes some of the workload from Leach.
But yes,we need 20 wickets as priority with the team. If our bowlers get us out of jail here with anything it will be a minor miracle.
-
Find it a bit strange that Root hasn't bowled himself given that Axar took England apart with round arm non-spinning deliveries.
-
Find it a bit strange that Root hasn't bowled himself given that Axar took England apart with round arm non-spinning deliveries.
Think his bowling hand was strapped up after getting bit on the glove
-
No point moaning about the umpiring now and umpire call decisions
Selectors got it wrong, England won the toss and had the best of conditions batting during the day.
The seamers weren’t great either under lights. The batsman have had another shocker.
I see the worst case tomorrow, India bowled out after two sessions with a lead of 150. England batting under lights in the final session and 4 down before close
-
Think his bowling hand was strapped up after getting bit on the glove
Ah, that would explain it. Fingers crossed he's able to bowl tomorrow.
-
Lets face some facts -
Leach is admirable, the rest of our spinners are workmanlike at best
Their spinners are bloody excellent
We don't play spin that well
1 spinner is never enough in India - regardless of the conditions
Stokes is not fully fit to bowl, and a bit of a luxury in Asian conditions
The England selectors / management couldn't organise their sock-drawer and have no grasp of a rotation system
They are afraid to rest Stokes / afraid to trust in Bess
Is Archer the real deal outside of Sussex / IPL
Would India prepare a pitch in any circumstance that wouldn't turn?
A sensible side in these conditions would've been:
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Woakes
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Bess
Leach
Stone
Anderson
-
Woakes at 4 @FattusCattus ?
-
I quite like that side. Pope would need to move up, stokes 5
-
Woakes at 4 @FattusCattus ?
Admittedly it's a bit weird, and 4-5-6 are interchangeable, but someone had to get their ballbag put, and why not Woakes?
-
Pope at 4, Foakes up to 6, Woakes 7?
-
If we're doing fantasy cricket I'll have Thorpe back in his whites at 5 and Swann down out of the box to bowl in tandem with Leach.
And Taufel and Dickie Bird umpiring
-
Bucknor surely!
-
If they can't get away with home umpires during pandemic for whatever reason, just get rid of umpires call. Matter solved. Neutral or home umpires, I feel umpires call has to go away, if DRS says touched the stumps, dont care even it is 1%, then out. It is same for both teams. Even Sachin was advocating for this. When will ICC wake up..
-
Isn't the point of umpire's call to allow for the error rate the ball tracking technology has?
-
Isn't the point of umpire's call to allow for the error rate the ball tracking technology has?
Yes, that's what they say to have it but the reasoning seems absurd to me as it assumes umpires have zero error rate. And it is contradictory as DRS is in place to fix umpiring howlers (means error rate of umpires is acknowledged to be much higher)
Having known error rate consistent for both teams is better than having unknown error rate of umpires that varies across teams, time of day, varying concentration of umpire etc.
-
Yes, that's what they say to have it but the reasoning seems absurd to me as it assumes umpires have zero error rate. And it is contradictory as DRS is in place to fix umpiring howlers (means error rate of umpires is acknowledged to be much higher)
Having known error rate consistent for both teams is better than having unknown error rate of umpires that varies across teams, time of day, varying concentration of umpire etc.
It's not assuming umpire's have zero error rate at all. It's saying the new evidence isn't strong enough to overturn their original decision.
-
It's not assuming umpire's have zero error rate at all. It's saying the new evidence isn't strong enough to overturn their original decision.
That still means they have more confidence in umpire's original decision isnt it?
Or alternatively put, it means they claim - umpires original decision has lower error rate compared to DRS if ball is hitting stumps by less than 50% and higher error rate (compared to DRS) if ball is hitting stumps by more than 50%?
Doesn't make sense to me or I am missing something.
-
That still means they have more confidence in umpire's original decision isnt it?
Or alternatively put, it means they claim - umpires original decision has lower error rate compared to DRS if ball is hitting stumps by less than 50% and higher error rate (compared to DRS) if ball is hitting stumps by more than 50%?
Doesn't make sense to me or I am missing something.
It’s nothing to do with confidence.
Basic rule of cricket is that the umpires decision stands - you can’t argue with him on a Saturday for example.
The technology is there to support and not undermine this system. It allows the umpires some tolerance because there is always doubt with a human decision.
If the standing umpire deems it out - the technology has to PROVE CATEGORICALLY he is wrong. The technology cannot do that with 100% certainty. Ergo the margin of error is built into the DRS system.
It’s the same as confidence limits in statistical analysis, and tolerances on calibrations etc.
Also, if you remove umpires call you might as well remove umpires entirely, and the game would be over in 2.5 days - great to watch and for all involved 👌
-
It’s nothing to do with confidence.
Basic rule of cricket is that the umpires decision stands - you can’t argue with him on a Saturday for example.
The technology is there to support and not undermine this system. It allows the umpires some tolerance because there is always doubt with a human decision.
If the standing umpire deems it out - the technology has to PROVE CATEGORICALLY he is wrong. The technology cannot do that with 100% certainty. Ergo the margin of error is built into the DRS system.
It’s the same as confidence limits in statistical analysis, and tolerances on calibrations etc.
Also, if you remove umpires call you might as well remove umpires entirely, and the game would be over in 2.5 days - great to watch and for all involved 👌
A couple of things regards the umpiring -
Home Umpires at the moment and the ICC therefore giving an extra review because of this is ridiculous and very undermining for them. No matter what country you are in they are still Panel umpires so should still be able to do their job, so by giving the extra review what are they saying their bias?!
Secondly the 'Umpires Call' I feel is a neccessary thing due to the technology never being 100% and also the thing about the umpire being right. However, I do believe that the teams have started playing on it knowing they won't lose a review and also it is in the umpires minds knowing their decision will be questioned whether its just clipping or crashing into all 3.
Lastly, this series is showing more and more the need for the 3rd Umpire to become a specialist position.
-
I think the point of the extra review is to try and reduce the impression of bias, not to imply that the umpires are biased.
-
Umpire's call is a farce. It's a fudge at best but now with extra reviews it's increasingly morphing into a total waste of time. If it's about accuracy then why does it apply to ball tracking as well as prediction?
-
Umpire's call is a farce. It's a fudge at best but now with extra reviews it's increasingly morphing into a total waste of time. If it's about accuracy then why does it apply to ball tracking as well as prediction?
Assuming either a typo or I'm misunderstanding something but what do you mean by that last bit?
-
Assuming either a typo or I'm misunderstanding something but what do you mean by that last bit?
Hawkeye tracks the ball from the bowler's hand to impact, then predicts where the ball would end up based on that information. The tracking phase of that is undeniably very accurate indeed, yet umpire's call is still used for where the ball pitched, for example.
-
Today is going to be awful isn't it
-
Bucknor surely!
Id take Bucknors dog over this lot
-
Hawkeye tracks the ball from the bowler's hand to impact, then predicts where the ball would end up based on that information. The tracking phase of that is undeniably very accurate indeed, yet umpire's call is still used for where the ball pitched, for example.
Ah thanks for explaining. Yeah that does seem a difficult one to wrap your head around.
-
I think the point of the extra review is to try and reduce the impression of bias, not to imply that the umpires are biased.
Surely that is the same difference, if you are trying not to give the impression of bias, you must first think there is a possibility of it. A fine line but one I think they are making worse
-
Today is going to be awful isn't it
It’s disheartening because I for one thought this match with the pink ball and under lights would be our best chance to win. A match.
I’m as sure as everyone else the forth test will be a raging Bunsen.
But it’s not over yet we need everything to go right today and then really try to apply ourselves with the bat. It can be done because Crawley made it look pretty easy yesterday. He’s def one who looks like he can succeed. He has a double ton already which is some achievement this early
-
Crawley made it look easy against pace. He was no better than the rest be spin, he just had the advantage of opening.
-
Crawley made it look easy against pace. He was no better than the rest be spin, he just had the advantage of opening.
The advantage of opening has not been apparent in scores for the openers so far. Sibley has had a 80 odd that’s about it.
-
Ultimately I think umpires call makes sense. As DRS intended use was to remove the howler. Which in the large part it has, I can’t think of a series where it has been questioned as much as this one.
If the decision comes back as umpires call... is it really a howler? Or has the umpire given one view at real time made a “reasonable” decision.
And the the technology can never be proven to be 100% accurate... Trying to prove that an event that never happened would have happened. How can you prove a hypothetical?
The ball presented is purely a visual representation of the most likely path of the ball post impact. If you added the margin for error around it, would it help tell the story better, probably not.
-
Crawley did score a fair few of his runs against the quicks, but he did also look composed initially against the spinners. Got worse as he went on though.
-
I love Leachy
-
Crawley looked worse after root went,
Stokes struggled to rotate the strike, Crawley seemed to lose rhythm with his innings at that point before his dismissal imo
-
Need Rohit out ASAP if we are going to have any chance of a fight back.
-
Crawley looked worse after root went,
Stokes struggled to rotate the strike, Crawley seemed to lose rhythm with his innings at that point before his dismissal imo
Yes that’s a good point. I think Crawley looks to score as much as he can naturally which is no bad thing.
He likes to get moving so far from what I’ve seen.
-
Surely that is the same difference, if you are trying not to give the impression of bias, you must first think there is a possibility of it. A fine line but one I think they are making worse
It’s unconscious bias that they’re worried about. I think if anything it may be that Home umpires would be more likely to subconsciously favour the Away team out of fear that they may be seen as biased (I know it hasn’t seemed like that so far).
-
Leachyyyyyyyyy
-
I’m starting to love Leachyyyyyyyy.
-
Slightly away from the action... I didn't have commentary on yesterday as I was sneakily watching in school (perks of being staff)
Why have bcci replaced butch with Swann? Anything to do with butch criticisms during the last test?
Also.... ROOOOOTTYYY
-
Foakes’s glove work!!! Just WOW
-
Lovely stuff from England. GAME ON!!!
-
Slightly away from the action... I didn't have commentary on yesterday as I was sneakily watching in school (perks of being staff)
Why have bcci replaced butch with Swann? Anything to do with butch criticisms during the last test?
Also.... ROOOOOTTYYY
Nah Butcher said in an interview he'd been planned to go home to spend time with his kids for ages, whole commentary gig for the India series was short notice.
-
This wicket is clearly not as good as suggested. Whilst England's batting was woeful, it's looking like this game won't get past 3 days.
-
Foakes is showing why we need to bin off part-time keepers.
-
Roooooooooot.
Love it when the Indian crowd (and commentators) get stunned in to silence!
-
Naaa naa na na na naaaaa na na na naaaa JOE ROOT
-
Foakes is showing why we need to bin off part-time keepers.
He’s making a difference to the team. Certainly when standing up which is the test of a good keeper
He’s class
-
ROOTY
-
This is (No Swearing Please) hilarious. Root laughing at his own figures is just pushing him out in front as my favourite cricketer of all time.
-
This could be all over today.
-
Can we agree, without suggestion of bias now, that this pitch is not suited to a five day test match?
-
Can we agree, without suggestion of bias now, that this pitch is not suited to a five day test match?
Couldn’t agree more - this is an horrendous example of a test match pitch.
-
Can we agree, without suggestion of bias now, that this pitch is not suited to a five day test match?
We are away but if we complain about the pitch it’s seen as sour grapes...
But is it suitable for a five day test match. We know it’s going to spin early in the games but this is a lottery
-
ROOOOOOOOOOOT
-
We are away but if we complain about the pitch it’s seen as sour grapes...
But is it suitable for a five day test match. We know it’s going to spin early in the games but this is a lottery
Obviously can see why it comes across as bitter but this is the second pitch they've produced that is clearly not fit for five days of elite cricket. Cannot see how that does test cricket any favours.
-
This pitch wouldn’t even be suitable for a 2nd XI 3 day match. It’s terrible. The BCCI have obviously ordered dustbowls as they think their spinners are superior, and their batsmen are more adept at playing on such wickets. I really hope it backfired on them.
Every country curates wickets to benefit the home team, but rarely as blatantly as this. In England a lot of the movement is down to the ball and atmospheric conditions - it is very rare that you’ll see a test played on a green top.
-
This pitch wouldn’t even be suitable for a 2nd XI 3 day match. It’s terrible. The BCCI have obviously ordered dustbowls as they think their spinners are superior, and their batsmen are more adept at playing on such wickets. I really hope it backfired on them.
Every country curates wickets to benefit the home team, but rarely as blatantly as this. In England a lot of the movement is down to the ball and atmospheric conditions - it is very rare that you’ll see a test played on a green top.
Exactly right. We can do nothing about the ball moving in the air. What I want to know is Kholi got the pitch he wanted after we win the first test.
Is this what he wanted again?
-
This pitch wouldn’t even be suitable for a 2nd XI 3 day match. It’s terrible.
fair play i'd be a bit pissed off if my club wicket was like this if it was in august and we were playing on a wicket that had been used 4 times :D :D :D :D
-
JOE ROOT 5FER
-
Roooooooooot!
5-8 isn’t too bad.
-
Cheapest England fivefer ever?
-
Who needs 4 day tests when you can do it in 2 :D
-
Will England score enough to make India bat again??
-
I fear those 33 runs could prove crucial. I'd rather see us attack because you can't defend on this
-
I'd try to seize the initiative here, invite Bairstow to open and play in one day mode. A quick 60 might make all the difference.
-
On this pitch it genuinely might be worth them coming out in ODI mode, only need a few of them to come off and they'll have a competitive score.
-
Yep I'm with you two, Bairstow can do it and shove Sibley down the order. We are going to have to gamble here.
Stokes has done nothing so far he is capable of changing things as well
-
Well that's some start.
-
Why am I not surprised
-
What’s this fascination with playing back to spinners all the time
-
And it gets better, this is an absolute farce 😂
-
Have I just seen this correctly? Is YJB a totally idiot!
-
Good old bairstow! First ball
-
Lucky lucky boy
-
Why is he in this team
-
Even as an England fan I'm gutted for Axar there.
-
What is happening
-
Wow. Awful shot, deserved to be out.
Lols - gone next ball.
-
Everyone still think bairstow is the right option?
-
Two fantastic shots from Bairstow there
-
Bairstow should never ever again be anywhere near this test side.
It’s a new ball it’s not going to turn for gods sake
-
And like that one turns past Root's outside edge 😂
-
Bairstow shouldn’t play for the test team ever again. He has NO defensive technique whatsoever. How can a supposed international cricketer leave a gap as huge as that, especially after receiving a get out of jail free card the ball before.
-
Bairstow should never ever again be anywhere near this test side.
It’s a new ball it’s not going to turn for gods sake
Except for the one that bowled Crawley obviously.
-
Bairstow should never ever again be anywhere near this test side.
It’s a new ball it’s not going to turn for gods sake
The one to root first ball did a bit 😂
-
And like that one turns past Root's outside edge 😂
Both ex tear openers said you play for the straight ball early on and if it turns well that’s just one of those things. So first ball he plays a cross bat shot against the spin and it goes straight on and then second ball he plays for spin with a huge gap and it goes straight on.
As was just said if you can’t trust or don’t have a defensive game you can’t bat in the top order at any level let alone this pinnacle of the sport.
-
Both ex tear openers said you play for the straight ball early on and if it turns well that’s just one of those things. So first ball he plays a cross bat shot against the spin and it goes straight on and then second ball he plays for spin with a huge gap and it goes straight on.
As was just said if you can’t trust or don’t have a defensive game you can’t bat in the top order at any level let alone this pinnacle of the sport.
Don't disagree with you mate, just funny how I read your comment as I watched the ball to Root is all 😅
-
Don't disagree with you mate, just funny how I read your comment as I watched the ball to Root is all 😅
The turning balls didn’t get either of these two out or many of Patels first innings wickets either, it’s the arm balls that have picked up wickets.
Just brain dead batting from England. Also with just a short leg I have no idea where this keep playing back has come from
-
Both ex tear openers said you play for the straight ball early on and if it turns well that’s just one of those things. So first ball he plays a cross bat shot against the spin and it goes straight on and then second ball he plays for spin with a huge gap and it goes straight on.
As was just said if you can’t trust or don’t have a defensive game you can’t bat in the top order at any level let alone this pinnacle of the sport.
To be fair, Cook then immediately said that goes out of the window, play for turn after the Crawley dismissal. Then you have everybody above saying Bairstow should come out and play an aggressive cameo then getting annoyed when he sweeps his first ball. I think just accept that this is horrendously difficult, most will fail and hopefully a few will succeed.
-
Positive - at least Bairstow is back to being bowled through the gate.
-
It was obvious from the first 10 minutes of this game that the pitch is far from being good enough for intentional cricket. I don't think any batsman can be judged when the pitch is a complete lottery.
No point prodding around on a pitch this bad. Rohit had the right approach. Better to chance your arm and at least go down trying to do something positive.
-
Sigh
-
To be fair, Cook then immediately said that goes out of the window, play for turn after the Crawley dismissal. Then you have everybody above saying Bairstow should come out and play an aggressive cameo then getting annoyed when he sweeps his first ball. I think just accept that this is horrendously difficult, most will fail and hopefully a few will succeed.
Agreed, I don't think there is any way to play properly on a pitch like this. Today we have seen batsmen play for the line and getting bowled missing the ball by a long way, then others getting bowled by straight balls playing for turn.
This is more like club cricket on a dreadful wicket where the game is won by whichever side's fat slogger comes off. At the moment Rohit is winning this game for India
-
Interesting interpretation of ‘clear/big spike’ - agreed that it was right to uphold it but I would say ‘murmur’ at most!
-
Agreed, I don't think there is any way to play properly on a pitch like this. Today we have seen batsmen play for the line and getting bowled missing the ball by a long way, then others getting bowled by straight balls playing for turn.
This is more like club cricket on a dreadful wicket where the game is won by whichever side's fat slogger comes off. At the moment Rohit is winning this game for India
Get more fat sloggers into international cricket 😂
-
If Sibley feels the need to play those sorts of hoiks in order to try and relieve the pressure then perhaps test match cricket isn’t for him. Another awful shot. England have mentally disintegrated.
-
Interesting interpretation of ‘clear/big spike’ - agreed that it was right to uphold it but I would say ‘murmur’ at most!
Ever wonder why the spikes sometimes can go off the graphic when the ball hits the pad but other times it only fill up half?
The size of the spikes can be adjusted... the fact there is a spike is enough.
-
Ever wonder why the spikes sometimes can go off the graphic when the ball hits the pad but other times it only fill up half?
The size of the spikes can be adjusted... the fact there is a spike is enough.
Interesting, I was more thinking that it wasn’t of a much greater magnitude than the general noise beforehand but appreciate that it would be more pronounced if scaled up. Seems a bit technical/sophisticated considering some of the basic blunders made by the 3rd umpire last test!
-
I really don’t want to jinx Root but he is making it look possible to bat normally on this pitch as long as you’re willing to watch the odd one rip past the outside edge and whistle past your nose!
-
sigh
-
Indian Comms saying he's lucky is hilarious... Nothing when Rohit was stumped last game
-
the test championship clearly means a lot more to the indian team than the english. For me its still the ashes, followed by a west indies tour.
Losing the first test obviously hurt the indian team a lot, as they took a huge risk in preparing pitches that were not designed to go three days. batting has been a complete lottery against class spinners, and they have better spinners than us so the result is inevitable.
I have no issue with pitches suiting the home team, every team has friendly conditions, but the last 2 pitches have been shocking and not really designed for anything more than 3 days.
-
3rd ump did everything he could to try and give that out! Finally the right decision. Absolutely no way he would have taken 5 mins on an Indian decision like that
-
sigh
I love your positivity mate! 😂
-
Indian Comms saying he's lucky is hilarious... Nothing when Rohit was stumped last game
They've been awful, every bit as bad as Swann is with regard to England. Earlier they essentially said Root was turning his arm over and picking up lucky wickets about a minute after he'd completely done Sundar with a ripper.
-
Indian Comms saying he's lucky is hilarious... Nothing when Rohit was stumped last game
had to mute it, never heard so much rubbish from a commentator.
Axar has bowled well but the way they are going on about it is rediculous. especially compared to how 'lucky' root was when he bowled
Spinner takes wickets on dustbowl, hardly a headline
-
Interesting, I was more thinking that it wasn’t of a much greater magnitude than the general noise beforehand but appreciate that it would be more pronounced if scaled up. Seems a bit technical/sophisticated considering some of the basic blunders made by the 3rd umpire last test!
The worrying thing is they have had training! And aren’t new to the process.
Usually speaking the waveform from the bat are taller and slimmer than hitting pad/ legs. Which in turn are usually a longer waveform. Which given how clean the one on root was I thought it was quite obviously bat then pad, but was a very tight call. Was a little inbetween frames too.
-
Pope should be dropped looks a totally out of his depth
-
Pope should be dropped looks a totally out of his depth
Has anybody bar Root and Stokes looked capable today?
-
Pope should be dropped looks a totally out of his depth
Mate... All 22 players look out of their depth on this..
-
The one game I thought we'd do alright on, we've made a mess of. Horrible defeat
-
Foakes to be left high and dry again. Would’ve sent him in at 3
Number 11 type of shot from archer
-
No offence to village cricket, but that shot from jof belongs in village cricket.. awful.
-
The one game I thought we'd do alright on, we've made a mess of. Horrible defeat
The daft thing is, with this wicket, it's not over 😂😂
-
Has anybody bar Root and Stokes looked capable today?
I didn’t even think Stokes did! I though Sibley looked the closest to sticking it out with Root, a real shame that he played that shot
-
Don’t know what was better from Archer - the review or the shot
-
Questions need to be asked about Silverwood and co. If this is what their coaching results in then there’s something seriously wrong. Pathetic batting from start to finish.
-
Going to throw a contraversial opinion here, but I don't think Archer is a number 8 batsman. Maybe a 10.
-
Yes Leachy 😂
-
Going to throw a contraversial opinion here, but I don't think Archer is a number 8 batsman. Maybe a 10.
He's an 8 in T20s, not tests.
-
+1 for the earlier comments on the commentary by the way, trying to justify this pitch as the only type that tests a batsman’s skill
-
Going to throw a contraversial opinion here, but I don't think Archer is a number 8 batsman. Maybe a 10.
You are correct and he never has been.
In this team however we have 4 guys that should all be batting 10 or 11
I said it last match - hard to blame the bowlers when the top 7 have failed twice
-
Questions need to be asked about Silverwood and co. If this is what their coaching results in then there’s something seriously wrong. Pathetic batting from start to finish.
I struggle to see how a coach can be blamed
-
Just more disappointing that they clawed a way back into the game, then dug themselves back out of it.
-
I struggle to see how a coach can be blamed
Mindset, tactics, influence on selection?
-
Root opening the bowling will be slightly embarrassing. Shows how wrong they got selection
-
Mindset, tactics, influence on selection?
Do you think that any of these things would have made a significant difference in this or the last Test?
-
Might be worth thinking we are about 50 runs only from a potential win
Another few runs in the first or second innings and a lead of 100 could of been enough to win on this pitch.
I’m not going to complain about the pitch but maybe this shows what they have to prepare to beat us
-
Do you think that any of these things would have made a significant difference in this or the last Test?
Selection maybe. Having more batting and another spinner would have kept this slightly more competitive.
-
Root opening the bowling will be slightly embarrassing. Shows how wrong they got selection
Given that he took 5 for 8, if anything picking Bess would have made England worse. Other than picking another batsman (Burns or Lawrence) who I doubt would have scored runs, I don’t think it would make any odds
-
Given that he took 5 for 8, if anything picking Bess would have made England worse. Other than picking another batsman (Burns or Lawrence) who I doubt would have scored runs, I don’t think it would make any odds
Could argue they over bowled seam on day 1 in that last session
-
Can we all at least now agree that there was nothing really wrong with the pitch for the 2nd test?
-
Could argue they over bowled seam on day 1 in that last session
You could, but was that because Root was nursing his hand injury or might they have done that anyway under the lights? It’s pretty marginal to be completely rubbishing the coaching.
Enough teams have had this treatment in India that I just don’t feel compelled to blame it all on England getting it wrong. The first Test was India’s second home defeat in 35 after all!
-
Root opening the bowling will be slightly embarrassing. Shows how wrong they got selection
He's the 2nd best spinner in the tour party. He may even be the 2nd best English spinner, currently.
-
Can we all at least now agree that there was nothing really wrong with the pitch for the 2nd test?
Aside from the fact that it was a test match pitch that wasn't prepared to last 5 days? If you're not preparing a pitch that will last the distance then might as well just move to 4 day tests and save everyone the bother of getting refunds for day 5 tickets.
-
The advantage of opening has not been apparent in scores for the openers so far. Sibley has had a 80 odd that’s about it.
It has in this test. Has anyone made more than 25 runs batted spin?
-
Can we all at least now agree that there was nothing really wrong with the pitch for the 2nd test?
Just because this one is Sabina Park bad, doesn’t mean the 2nd test wasn’t played on a poor deck.
Just like if the 4th test is played on an actual minefield, it won’t make this one a better pitch.
-
Can we all at least now agree that there was nothing really wrong with the pitch for the 2nd test?
No, because that was crap as well, just because this one is how it is doesn't change the previous
-
It has in this test. Has anyone made more than 25 runs batted spin?
No you’re right but this test is going to be a 2 dayer. It’s very difficult to compare anything with it.
I suspect England will get accused of sour grapes by mentioning anything to do with the wicket.
We are away, home advantage counts but this game is complete carnage.
India will point to a new pitch,new stadium etc but if this was a County game the pitch inspectors would have a field day.
-
I reckon when they come over here, we should have tests at Bristol, Canterbury and Scarbados, water the pitches the night before and field an attack of Anderson, Darren Stevens, Ben Coad and Jamie Porter. See how they like it! :)
-
Rumour has it Somerset have been docked 150 points and fined £150000 for this Ahmedabad track
-
I reckon when they come over here, we should have tests at Bristol, Canterbury and Scarbados, water the pitches the night before and field an attack of Anderson, Darren Stevens, Ben Coad and Jamie Porter. See how they like it! :)
Don’t forget rushworth
-
Rumour has it Somerset have been docked 150 points and fined £150000 for this Ahmedabad track
Even the worst Ciderabad bunsen has held together until lunch on the first day!!!!!
-
Don’t forget rushworth
And bring back Dave Masters!!!
-
Had we better better in the first innings we probably would’ve won this game. Had we posted 200-220 we would’ve been laughing. Factor in playing 4 fast bowlers when the home side are playing 3 spinners. We got selection wrong.
Let’s be honest Ashwin is better than all spinners we have combined.
In the last 4 innings we’ve managed a solitary individual half century. With batting that poor we aren’t gonna win many matches
-
And bring back Dave Masters!!!
And then ensure a commentary team of Swann, Vaughan, Cook and Strauss is broadcast on Indian state television.
-
Aside from the fact that it was a test match pitch that wasn't prepared to last 5 days? If you're not preparing a pitch that will last the distance then might as well just move to 4 day tests and save everyone the bother of getting refunds for day 5 tickets.
The 2nd test could easily have lasted 5 days had England not been so utterly atrocious with the bat. Nothing wrong with the pitch at all, just terrible batting.
Now this pitch on the other hand....
-
I like it that the person who described this pitch as 'a road' is the one with the most expensive bat collection. :D
Well played India.
-
The 2nd test could easily have lasted 5 days had England not been so utterly atrocious with the bat. Nothing wrong with the pitch at all, just terrible batting.
Now this pitch on the other hand....
There was excess turn, uneven bounce and the surface was popping and breaking up on day one.. that is not a good wicket, there's no way round that...
-
My team for the 4th Test -
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Lawrence
Bracey
Bess/Virdi/Parkinson
Leach
If the pitch is going to be like the last 2 then there is no need for a seamer apart from Stokes and the more batting the better!
-
I reckon when they come over here, we should have tests at Bristol, Canterbury and Scarbados, water the pitches the night before and field an attack of Anderson, Darren Stevens, Ben Coad and Jamie Porter. See how they like it! :)
Sorry, but that's not a better seam attack than Anderson, Broad, Archer and Stokes on any pitch.
-
My team for the 4th Test -
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Lawrence
Bracey
Bess/Virdi/Parkinson
Leach
If the pitch is going to be like the last 2 then there is no need for a seamer apart from Stokes and the more batting the better!
2-1 is India in the WTC final isn’t it? The cynic in me doesn’t think they’ll produce another results lottery wicket.
Might well be the sort of deck where a 9 bowlers and 2 batters strategy is more appropriate!
-
Sorry, but that's not a better seam attack than Anderson, Broad, Archer and Stokes on any pitch.
Thank God you corrected his absolutely serious selection plan 🤣
-
2-1 is India in the WTC final isn’t it? The cynic in me doesn’t think they’ll produce another results lottery wicket.
Not sure, I think a 2-2 draw gives it the Aussies though
-
2-1 is India in the WTC final isn’t it? The cynic in me doesn’t think they’ll produce another results lottery wicket.
Yep you could well be right. It would be very very ballsy for the BCCI to do it, but I suppose they don't answer to anyone though do they
-
Thank God you corrected his absolutely serious selection plan 🤣
So stop blaming the pitch and suggesting that we've got an equivalent card we could 'retaliate' with?
-
Surprised moeen hasn’t been blamed yet ;)
Hope there’s a green top for the WTC at lords please as retaliation :D
-
Its not the pitch, its that damn pink ball which has caused all this damage because of it skidding off the surface. It will be a completely different story next test when it will turn but not skids so much.
-
Surprised moeen hasn’t been blamed yet ;)
Hope there’s a green top for the WTC at lords please as retaliation :D
I wouldn't blame Moeen. But rhe amount of T20 cricket is definitely a factor. So the cintroversy over his rest period isn't totally unrelated?
Joe Root did better with the ball than Moeen ever would have done, so he wasn't missed.
-
So stop blaming the pitch and suggesting that we've got an equivalent card we could 'retaliate' with?
Almost everybody has acknowledged that the pitch didn't excessively favour India, but if you think that was a good quality pitch you're deluded.
Looking forward to NZ rolling India for under 100 on a green seamer in the WTC, Boult with the 8fer.
-
Almost everybody has acknowledged that the pitch didn't excessively favour India, but if you think that was a good quality pitch you're deluded.
Looking forward to NZ rolling India for under 100 on a green seamer in the WTC, Boult with the 8fer.
...and that will be deemed as a 'challenging pitch', LoL! Not sure who thought it was a good idea to host the final in England, honestly! Surely, it should been a home and away scenario to be fair to the top 2 teams to decide the winner.
-
This made me chuckle
"110 million spent on the stadium. 50 cents on the pitch." Simon Hughes
-
...and that will be deemed as a 'challenging pitch', LoL! Not sure who thought it was a good idea to host the final in England, honestly! Surely, it should been a home and away scenario to be fair to the top 2 teams to decide the winner.
Not sure why a one-off game was selected as the best way to decide the top test side in the world either to be honest. I like the idea of a league giving wider context to otherwise meaningless Tests but the 'final' just feels like a marketing gimmick.
-
My team for the 4th Test -
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Lawrence
Bracey
Bess/Virdi/Parkinson
Leach
If the pitch is going to be like the last 2 then there is no need for a seamer apart from Stokes and the more batting the better!
Bairstow... lol.. really.. still persisting in the belief he's a test batter?!?!? No wonder this side are poor
-
Bairstow... lol.. really.. still persisting in the belief he's a test batter?!?!? No wonder this side are poor
The point was more it's a side of 9 batters and 2 spinners. I couldn't think of any other batter in the squad to replace him to be honest
-
The point was more it's a side of 9 batters and 2 spinners. I couldn't think of any other batter in the squad to replace him to be honest
tbf fella, you're correct.. there is literally nothing better to replace him with.. that's how bad things are with Englands test team.
What do India need to ensure they get into the WTC final?? if they've done it and a draw suits them.. expect a similar feather bed to the first test and a 500+ plays 500+ snore draw
-
tbf fella, you're correct.. there is literally nothing better to replace him with.. that's how bad things are with Englands test team.
What do India need to ensure they get into the WTC final?? if they've done it and a draw suits them.. expect a similar feather bed to the first test and a 500+ plays 500+ snore draw
I seem to remember the 1st Test pitch being good to start with but gradually deteriorating to be very difficult towards the end of Day 3.
And it wasnt a draw.
Im not arguing however that India will now want the flattest pitch possible for the 4th and to bat England out of the game. Although you have to think England are so far down mentally it would take a miracle to get a result on any surface.
-
I seem to remember the 1st Test pitch being good to start with but gradually deteriorating to be very difficult towards the end of Day 3.
And it wasnt a draw.
Im not arguing however that India will now want the flattest pitch possible for the 4th and to bat England out of the game. Although you have to think England are so far down mentally it would take a miracle to get a result on any surface.
first test was a draw wicket but.. but.. India batted soooo badly that it cost them the game first dig. Happens but very very rare for any side to do that. They'll prepare a snore draw and a few of these England lads who like a flat deck will fill their boots and leave the shores being hailed like they were win SL... 9th rate SL side mind
This wicket was poor though.. second test was fine.. this one.. not so much.
-
Pope has looked a little out his depth the last two games with the ball turning, not sure wether to use his feet, play off the back foot.
No doubt about his talent but has looked in all sorts of trouble.
-
Pope has looked a little out his depth the last two games with the ball turning, not sure wether to use his feet, play off the back foot.
No doubt about his talent but has looked in all sorts of trouble.
this is why you need to see players in all conditions. Looks the part when it's flat and you can play strokes..... Can he tough it out.. fight...
Foakes for example, while not scored loads.. has shown fight and a willingness to hang in there when it's hard.
-
Pope has looked a little out his depth the last two games with the ball turning, not sure wether to use his feet, play off the back foot.
No doubt about his talent but has looked in all sorts of trouble.
I think for everyone involved, you have to make some allowances for the disruption of rotation policies etc, which is going to have been that much worse for Pope who has been living in bubbles for a long time mostly for the purposes of rehab. He's had a couple of sketchy dismissals, I will grant you, but has also been done by some really good bowling a couple of times (and by that, I mean that he may not have been dismissed by an unplayable ball, but has instead been moved around the crease by a master until his concentrated failed him).
-
Foakes is a typical old style keeper who scraps around for runs and singles, I remain convinced he is what we need regardless of conditions, he have enough stroke players in the side.
I don't think myself England, or us fans for that matter,should be too downbeat, I've just read this test is the shortest game since 1935, and before that it's back to 1890 or something.
The Indian spinners are better than ours and played better, the pitch was a minefield to bat on for both teams and we came off worst which is almost to be expected.
It's 1-2 not 0-4 which I think was the series score last time we were in India.
The way I see it, India after the first game thought we were a threat to their home record so we have had 2 bad pitches, let's be honest without making excuses, the pitches are bad.
batting wise, we don't have that many options, I don't believe there are better players sat home in the UK.
There are positives it's not a disaster, Crawley looked good, Foakes keeping and batting is good, Leach has bowled well,Root's run of hundreds had to come to an end at some point.
Stokes has been largely absent for some reason, and we, Emgland, made a right pigs ear of the second spinners slot, Bess God knows what has happened behind the scenes and Mo was an option we could not use for this game.
I don't think the management of England has been good with regard to Mo and Bess.
The players I don't think need or deserve a hammering, realistically ask what was the expectation before the series started....
-
Pope has looked a little out his depth the last two games with the ball turning, not sure wether to use his feet, play off the back foot.
No doubt about his talent but has looked in all sorts of trouble.
Pope is, to be fair to him, coming off the back of a fairly long injury lay off. No doubt he'll come good given time.
-
India chased 49 without loss. The conditions were the same for both teams. Pitch wasn't a test match standard, but please let's not make excuses.
-
India chased 49 without loss. The conditions were the same for both teams. Pitch wasn't a test match standard, but please let's not make excuses.
England had to take wickets and set fields accordingly. Gill and Rohit took them on and attacked because there was no pressure on them. Not really comparing apples and apples.
Earlier the same day India lost their last 7 wickets for absolutely zip, that's a better indication of the quality of pitch this was.
Two decisive factors - individual excellence from Rohit across both innings and the quality of spin options. Nobody believes Leach and Root are the equals of Axar and Ashwin.
-
England had to take wickets and set fields accordingly. Gill and Rohit took them on and attacked because there was no pressure on them. Not really comparing apples and apples.
Earlier the same day India lost their last 7 wickets for absolutely zip, that's a better indication of the quality of pitch this was.
Two decisive factors - individual excellence from Rohit across both innings and the quality of spin options. Nobody believes Leach and Root are the equals of Axar and Ashwin.
Yeah you can't compare chasing such a low score with so many wickets in hand, and there was space everywhere in the outfield.
The 10 wicket win is just a statistic that does not resemble the game.
-
We lost twice as many wickets in the match as they did. And I wouldn't have wanted to have bet much on us chasing 49 without losing a wicket.
-
I think pitch is blamed considering the scores the two sides made, but if you look at the wickets, most were to straight balls with normal bounce. Just feel this is the type of pitch where using the feet was more important than the sweep. When Rohit and Gill did that in 2nd innings, it looked much easier to score. With better application, each side could have easily made 250 odd atleast. Also not to ignore, both sides bowled really well, some of Root's wicket taking deliveries were peach, the seam position, the dip and turn, so need to give it to good bowling as well exploiting the conditions to the most.
-
call me eyore or whatever but the pitch wasn't great.. however.... it wasn't 'that' bad. The first test was a boring draw wicket which you'd expect 500 plays 500 bore draw but India just batted badly. terrible test wicket.
second test was fine.. sure, not a road but hey.. maybe learn how to bat when you can't just play shots!!
this test was obviously a bit too bad BUT... it's the same for both sides and England were again, totally outplayed when the going was tough.. England are quite simply over rated and we have a few players who are only at home when it's either a green top (Curran).. or a flat track where they can just tee off (Bairstow, Curran, Mo, Buttler).
Sibley/Crawley should be given time regardless.. Burns, anyone sensible knew he wouldn't be anything great but he's the best there is currently.
Bairstow.. laughable but again.. when we play on roads or against 9th rate sides like SL he looks great.. (Curran and co in the same vain)
Foakes needs to be in now for 20-30 tests at least but he will be dropped for White ball Buttler.
Rotation policy is terrible, play your best test side and if you must rotate, rotate the white ball side where the country has many hitters anyway so leaving out a root, stokes etc won't matter at all. We simply don't have 6 test batters let alone enough to rotate
the sweep.. yet again.. seems to be Englands (and white ball players) 'go to' shot.. works on roads.. doesn't work so well consistently on these sort of tracks.. you have to have different game plans and ability to execute.. that is test cricket after all
-
I'm afraid rightly or wrongly, the rotation has been necessary BUT seems to be in favour of the white ball team.
That is another reason I don't think we get too down on e team. I think Root had his has tied to some extent.
-
call me eyore or whatever but the pitch wasn't great.. however.... it wasn't 'that' bad.
It was, and I shall tell you for why.
Noone sensible minds a pitch like we had for the second test (though they may not agree with it) - England were behind the eight ball losing the toss and then bowled poorly throughout, with too many four balls - because whilst it took sharp spin and had dusted by day two, it did so more or less consistently so what you actually saw was that players who had their method worked out and were prepared to get in did manage to survive and prosper.
This pitch, meanwhile, was falling to pieces in some place but holding in others, so batsmen were not just dealing with the one that span massively and the assortment of arm balls, they were also forced to wonder whether one would take off and hit the shoulder AND whether one that was spun hard from the hand would hit the patches that were holding and skid on. In essence, it made batting a lottery, and there is no more satisfaction in seeing very good batsmen made to look stupid because in those situations you are going to guess wrong eventually than there is in seeing great fast bowlers flogged for 200 on a lifeless road.
Sorry, rant over.
-
It was, and I shall tell you for why.
Noone sensible minds a pitch like we had for the second test (though they may not agree with it) - England were behind the eight ball losing the toss and then bowled poorly throughout, with too many four balls - because whilst it took sharp spin and had dusted by day two, it did so more or less consistently so what you actually saw was that players who had their method worked out and were prepared to get in did manage to survive and prosper.
This pitch, meanwhile, was falling to pieces in some place but holding in others, so batsmen were not just dealing with the one that span massively and the assortment of arm balls, they were also forced to wonder whether one would take off and hit the shoulder AND whether one that was spun hard from the hand would hit the patches that were holding and skid on. In essence, it made batting a lottery, and there is no more satisfaction in seeing very good batsmen made to look stupid because in those situations you are going to guess wrong eventually than there is in seeing great fast bowlers flogged for 200 on a lifeless road.
Sorry, rant over.
so Bairstow's first shot was a 'lottery'... or his second (I mean, huge gap)... Even crawly's shot was pretty bad
so the first game and SL where these same players were lauded as 'greats'.. 'world class'... they were flogging poor bowlers on roads.. yet.. no one said anything then.. all about how great these guys were.
Sure, this wicket really isn't any good.. way to far the other way but... excusing the batsmen for not at least toughing it out for as long as they can isn't good.. still looking to 'be positive'.
Anyway we will always disagree and I suspect I'll always disagree with people who want more run tests and white ball cricket style. I'd take a low scoring fighting track over a 400 plays 400 wicket
-
Test #3 over in 2 days? What a dud!!!
Is that even real Test cricket?
-
I've read Manormanic's post different to how you have Pro, he's not saying he wants roads where quality bowlers are reduced to bowling machines. He's saying (I think please correct if I'm wrong) on this wicket two identical balls have done two different things off the pitch...and that is mighty hard to play against.
The trying to hang in their style is seen two ways. Batsman tries to defend and hang in but then gets a nick is it a soft dismissal on wickets like these?. If he uses his feet...which I saw Sibley do a bit....and tries to get down the track but misses is that reckless or a safer way to play on a turning track?. Sometimes you're stuffed either way.
Bairstow misses a straight on ball today presuming he played for spin that wasn't there, but he has got previous with a leaky defence we know.
If it was a club match on a turning track, some of us play down the line and not for the spin, if it spins you nick it or it spins past your bat, if you get to the pitch it don't matter which way it's turning.
There's loads of us on here prefer tests to one day cricket same as you, but this was a bad pitch and we look worse than the Indian batters in their own conditions. There's no real surprise there.
But if it was that easy we would have made it further than club cricket :) and most of us havnt.
I think also as another post mentions, the pink ball has made it a bit harder to play than the conventional red one. Maybe it skids more...
-
I've read Manormanic's post different to how you have Pro, he's not saying he wants roads where quality bowlers are reduced to bowling machines. He's saying (I think please correct if I'm wrong) on this wicket two identical balls have done two different things off the pitch...and that is mighty hard to play against.
The trying to hang in their style is seen two ways. Batsman tries to defend and hang in but then gets a nick is it a soft dismissal on wickets like these?. If he uses his feet...which I saw Sibley do a bit....and tries to get down the track but misses is that reckless or a safer way to play on a turning track?. Sometimes you're stuffed either way.
Bairstow misses a straight on ball today presuming he played for spin that wasn't there, but he has got previous with a leaky defence we know.
If it was a club match on a turning track, some of us play down the line and not for the spin, if it spins you nick it or it spins past your bat, if you get to the pitch it don't matter which way it's turning.
There's loads of us on here prefer tests to one day cricket same as you, but this was a bad pitch and we look worse than the Indian batters in their own conditions. There's no real surprise there.
But if it was that easy we would have made it further than club cricket :) and most of us havnt.
I think also as another post mentions, the pink ball has made it a bit harder to play than the conventional red one. Maybe it skids more...
I totally agree with this, but there was also some terrible batting from both sides - 21 of 30 dismissals came from straight balls.
-
I've read Manormanic's post different to how you have Pro, he's not saying he wants roads where quality bowlers are reduced to bowling machines. He's saying (I think please correct if I'm wrong) on this wicket two identical balls have done two different things off the pitch...and that is mighty hard to play against.
The trying to hang in their style is seen two ways. Batsman tries to defend and hang in but then gets a nick is it a soft dismissal on wickets like these?. If he uses his feet...which I saw Sibley do a bit....and tries to get down the track but misses is that reckless or a safer way to play on a turning track?. Sometimes you're stuffed either way.
Bairstow misses a straight on ball today presuming he played for spin that wasn't there, but he has got previous with a leaky defence we know.
If it was a club match on a turning track, some of us play down the line and not for the spin, if it spins you nick it or it spins past your bat, if you get to the pitch it don't matter which way it's turning.
There's loads of us on here prefer tests to one day cricket same as you, but this was a bad pitch and we look worse than the Indian batters in their own conditions. There's no real surprise there.
But if it was that easy we would have made it further than club cricket :) and most of us havnt.
I think also as another post mentions, the pink ball has made it a bit harder to play than the conventional red one. Maybe it skids more...
This pitch isn't up to test cricket. No one will say it is. Doesn't defend the players though. You can't (As Bairstow did) come out and play a reckless shot like that.. Next ball his usual mode of dismissal was back and yet people still persist he's some great batsmen..
The first test was a dire wicket.. this was a dire wicket.. only decent wicket so far was the 2nd test. Yet, those who are blinkered on England will have loved that first test purely because England got a run fest and feasted on a feather bed. Buffet bowling (if you're scoring 400 it's most likely too much of a road)
-
What’s really frustrating is that there’s no improvement from England.
Our openers are still not very good, our middle order still isn’t very good, our bowlers are still exceptional and continue to dig us out of a hole created by our batsman.
It’s just utter utter bilge in both selection, and play.
We persist with people like bairstow - who today in my opinion has nailed shut, poured petrol on, and set fire to the coffin that carries his career - yet he’s played 50 tests and averages 34.
Why aren’t we blooding youngsters like bracey/brook/hain etc rather than persisting with something that doesn’t work.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. England epitomise that.
The man management of Bess (who at the moment isn’t ready - but is clearly one for the future) just shows that England management haven’t got a clue.
-
I've read Manormanic's post different to how you have Pro, he's not saying he wants roads where quality bowlers are reduced to bowling machines. He's saying (I think please correct if I'm wrong) on this wicket two identical balls have done two different things off the pitch...and that is mighty hard to play against.
I think you've got the gist there. Short of that Sabina Park trampoline in 96 or thereabouts, I don't think there is anything closer to impossible than playing a quality spinner on a track that is breaking up but doing so unevenly. Aside from the usual problems of a broken surface - sudden bounce and sharp spin, you have the additional issue that you can correctly read what the bowler has intended and one ball will pick up pace and skid through lower whilst the other leaps and turns.
Until India were close enough to hit themselves home, you had two innings of any substance - Crawley and Rohit - and both scored most of their runs against the little seam that was bowled. Everyone else - Root and Kohli possibly excepted - groped around looking daft. Hell, as bad as England appeared, India managed a lead of 30, total. And England picked four seamers, dropped a howler with Kohli, and had the worst of the umpiring.
Note, I am not "defending" any of our batsmen. Well, maybe Root. I'm saying you need to have some understanding for just how difficult that situation was.
-
Interesting reading and valid points IMO: https://twitter.com/fwildecricket/status/1365009644138201090?s=21
-
This pitch isn't up to test cricket. No one will say it is. Doesn't defend the players though. You can't (As Bairstow did) come out and play a reckless shot like that.. Next ball his usual mode of dismissal was back and yet people still persist he's some great batsmen..
The first test was a dire wicket.. this was a dire wicket.. only decent wicket so far was the 2nd test. Yet, those who are blinkered on England will have loved that first test purely because England got a run fest and feasted on a feather bed. Buffet bowling (if you're scoring 400 it's most likely too much of a road)
No they don’t.
Not having this. Any pitch that gets into a 4th day and leaves a result possible at the end of day 5 is good in my opinion. Beyond your tedious ‘biffers’ agenda, I’m not actually sure what you want to see out of a Test match?!
-
Interesting reading and valid points IMO: https://twitter.com/fwildecricket/status/1365009644138201090?s=21
Fair points but not accurate to suggest that there was no/little evidence of uneven bounce in my opinion.
-
Fair points but not accurate to suggest that there was no/little evidence of uneven bounce in my opinion.
Totally agree. The first over of the game saw uneven bounce and carry from Sharma. Pant took the first ball at head height and then 3rd didn’t carry. If that’s not uneven bounce I don’t know what is 😂
-
I think there was the odd bounce once in a while and I am sure there is no pitch anywhere that has same exact bounce for every ball pitched at same place. But in general, the uneven bounce wasn't the cause of any wicket or what made it difficult for batsmen..
-
Totally agree. The first over of the game saw uneven bounce and carry from Sharma. Pant took the first ball at head height and then 3rd didn’t carry. If that’s not uneven bounce I don’t know what is 😂
I watched the morning day 1 and saw enough movement in the air and enough uneven bounce to presume although we needed a second spinner there would be enough for our seamers to have an impact.
Normally if there is some uneven bounce, just a bit, it will get worse towards days 4 and 5.
But the game did not get far enough.
-
So in previous match wicket was same India won because they batted first.
This match same or worse wicket. Eng batted first still India wins.
Yeah let's blame wicket.
-
My team for the 4th Test -
Sibley
Crawley
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Lawrence
Bracey
Bess/Virdi/Parkinson
Leach
If the pitch is going to be like the last 2 then there is no need for a seamer apart from Stokes and the more batting the better!
I do not know enough about Lawrence and Bracey bowl on regular basis but I think you might be one or two bowler short. Trying to strengthen the batting and asking Root to bowl more impact have more of a negative impact than adding another spinner.
-
The point was more it's a side of 9 batters and 2 spinners. I couldn't think of any other batter in the squad to replace him to be honest
I am most likely opening a can of worms here but wish England had Denly in the squad to get some bowling out of him and close batting average to other folks in the current test squad.
-
So in previous match wicket was same India won because they batted first.
This match same or worse wicket. Eng batted first still India wins.
Yeah let's blame wicket.
Typical blinkered response.
India were better than England, England were abysmal. But you are kidding yourself if you’re saying that pitch was acceptable. End of story.
-
So in previous match wicket was same India won because they batted first.
This match same or worse wicket. Eng batted first still India wins.
Yeah let's blame wicket.
This pitch was so bad it didn't matter who batted first or second, India collapsed first innings same as we did.
Root has not blamed the pitch, and credit on him for not doing so as it looks like sour grapes.
This test is the earliest end to a completed match since 1935, before that the next earliest was 1890.
This was a bad pitch, India probably would of won on normal one but this was far worse than the second test.
-
Time to have ICC oversight and certification of all Test pitches before the match starts.
If this continues, Test cricket will be back to under-arm bowling.
-
No they don’t.
Not having this. Any pitch that gets into a 4th day and leaves a result possible at the end of day 5 is good in my opinion. Beyond your tedious ‘biffers’ agenda, I’m not actually sure what you want to see out of a Test match?!
He just likes to moan!
I thought it was a good track aswell. Im still not sure what the criteria and scale of performance is for a Test match pitch but I feel they should be good to bat on for at least 50% of the match. Asia generally its the first 2 days. England and NZ generally days 2/3/4. Australian pitches often get flatter as they go for seamers but spin more so all bowlers have a sniff in the game if they are any good.
Balance is all thats needed. Joe Root taking taking 5-8 says it all. Michael Clarke took 6-10 or something in india a decade ago, albeit not on Day 2. Those sorts of pitches cannot be right. That would be akin to Ian Bell claiming a 5-fer on a green top with his mediums. Not good for players or spectators really other than die hard India fans
-
I'm thinking the series win has gone. The most likely set-up for the last test is a featherbed or raging bunsen.
We know what several England players can or can't do - Burns / Bairstow / Broad etc show us nothing new. Stokes' bowling seems pretty pointless over there and they seem to be limiting how much he bowls so he's a batter only - I can't see that we need any more than 2 seamers for the last test, so let's rest a couple of the old warhorses and give some youngsters as chance to shine, to do something brilliant and uninhibited.
I say pick:
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Lawrence
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Stone
Bess / Virdi / Crane - whomever is bowling best in nets.
Decent batting down to 8, 2.5 seamers and 3.5 spinners
That lineup can't do any worse surely?
-
For everyone calling it a poor wicket, I would really like to know the reason they think that. Agreed the test match was wrapped up in 2 days but, if you look at all the dismissals in the test match 90% of those dismissals were either due to lack of footwork or poor shots. The players were just not able to handle the way the ball was skidding off the pitch. It wasnt turning square. It was more a case of accurate spin bowling hurrying the batsmen. I would put that down to some brilliant accurate bowling and batsmen failing to adapt.
-
For everyone calling it a poor wicket, I would really like to know the reason they think that. Agreed the test match was wrapped up in 2 days but, if you look at all the dismissals in the test match 90% of those dismissals were either due to lack of footwork or poor shots. The players were just not able to handle the way the ball was skidding off the pitch. It wasnt turning square. It was more a case of accurate spin bowling hurrying the batsmen. I would put that down to some brilliant accurate bowling and batsmen failing to adapt.
Joe root took 5-8 turning it miles.
The problem was that one would turn square - this pitch has more then than Chennai on the final day - and then the very next ball with an identical delivery would skid on.
That’s nothing to do with brilliant bowling, that’s to do with bowling at the stumps and letting the pitch do the work.
India were very good, Axar particularly, England were abysmal. But the pitch was utter poo as well.
-
Time to have ICC oversight and certification of all Test pitches before the match starts.
If this continues, Test cricket will be back to under-arm bowling.
The match referee and umpires do check the pitch before the games...
Was covering a ODI at Pune and had to wait for the officials to be happy with the wicket before the groundsman would mark it up. He had three pitches ready to choose from.
He then got caught on camera talking about how the pitch was a road and would be 330+ wicket.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41753622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41753622)
For everyone calling it a poor wicket, I would really like to know the reason they think that. Agreed the test match was wrapped up in 2 days but, if you look at all the dismissals in the test match 90% of those dismissals were either due to lack of footwork or poor shots. The players were just not able to handle the way the ball was skidding off the pitch. It wasnt turning square. It was more a case of accurate spin bowling hurrying the batsmen. I would put that down to some brilliant accurate bowling and batsmen failing to adapt.
30 wickets inside 2 days... Just because the wickets fell to straight balls is irrelevant. It doesn't have to turn square to be a poor pitch. Every ball was going through the top.
I just don't understand how a batsman could have scored runs on that pitch. Unless it was against seam, Crawley and Rohit showed that was possible. Of course there were some poor shots in there but I think a few of them were purely down to the batsman not sure how to score a run.
-
No they don’t.
Not having this. Any pitch that gets into a 4th day and leaves a result possible at the end of day 5 is good in my opinion. Beyond your tedious ‘biffers’ agenda, I’m not actually sure what you want to see out of a Test match?!
A result was only possible as India batted so spectacularly badly first innings (usually it's 500 plays 500 remember in India). It had bore draw written all over it otherwise.
-
What’s really frustrating is that there’s no improvement from England.
Our openers are still not very good, our middle order still isn’t very good, our bowlers are still exceptional and continue to dig us out of a hole created by our batsman.
It’s just utter utter bilge in both selection, and play.
We persist with people like bairstow - who today in my opinion has nailed shut, poured petrol on, and set fire to the coffin that carries his career - yet he’s played 50 tests and averages 34.
Why aren’t we blooding youngsters like bracey/brook/hain etc rather than persisting with something that doesn’t work.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. England epitomise that.
The man management of Bess (who at the moment isn’t ready - but is clearly one for the future) just shows that England management haven’t got a clue.
wow.. finally.. someone talking sense
-
It will be interesting to see how the pitch plays next Test with a red ball. One thing that may have caused a lot of the dismissals is the extra lacquer on the pink ball causing it to skid on a lot quicker than the batsmen were expecting which may have played a part.
-
Joe root took 5-8 turning it miles.
The problem was that one would turn square - this pitch has more then than Chennai on the final day - and then the very next ball with an identical delivery would skid on.
That’s nothing to do with brilliant bowling, that’s to do with bowling at the stumps and letting the pitch do the work.
India were very good, Axar particularly, England were abysmal. But the pitch was utter poo as well.
Root wasnt turning it miles. The only good delivery he bowled was the one to Washington Sundar. Rest were balls that went straight thru or were poor shots from lower order batsmen.
-
Root wasnt turning it miles. The only good delivery he bowled was the one to Washington Sundar. Rest were balls that went straight thru or were poor shots from lower order batsmen.
I’m not sure you even watched the game after your response.
But...
Just read this article - and it should enlighten you - https://wisden.com/series-stories/india-v-england/ahmedabad-pitch-rated-poor-heres-what-rules-say-icc?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3yGzhuLJ6eWNoEJ5NcfCxuCWQ1_xnnXKODHodRVTKbA_iT9bkD1uKDCkc#Echobox=1614334552
-
A result was only possible as India batted so spectacularly badly first innings (usually it's 500 plays 500 remember in India). It had bore draw written all over it otherwise.
I’ve just flicked back through India’s home results since 2012 and there has been one game where the team batting 4th wasn’t at least 5 down (and it was as rain affected as it gets) - struggling to see the problem there.
PS Worth doing this for some of the more vocal critics to see how rarely India have even come close to losing during this period
-
I’m not sure you even watched the game after your response.
But...
Just read this article - and it should enlighten you - https://wisden.com/series-stories/india-v-england/ahmedabad-pitch-rated-poor-heres-what-rules-say-icc?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3yGzhuLJ6eWNoEJ5NcfCxuCWQ1_xnnXKODHodRVTKbA_iT9bkD1uKDCkc#Echobox=1614334552
Those arguments work well when the pitch starts to break up too early like it did in the Mumbai test vs Australia where Clarke got the 6-fer. If batsmen are unable to score runs on a tough pitch, it doesnt mean that the pitch is deemed bad. The wording in that wisden article made me laugh. “A Poor pitch is one that does not allow an even contest between bat and ball,” it says, “either by favouring the batters too much, and not giving the bowlers (seam and spin) from either team sufficient opportunity to take wickets, or by favouring the bowlers too much (seam or spin), and not giving the batters from either team the opportunity to make runs.
How many batsmen actually showed the patience to play a blockathon? The only response modern batsmen know when facing a tough pitch is to hit out/play unorthodox shots. I guess DRS is partly to blame for this since the batsmen cant really push their pads out to block out bowlers anymore. But there are ways to negotiate it. I did see the match and I do know that 21 out of the 30 dismissals were of straight balls which did not turn. Its just poor application from both sides.
The fact is that apart from Root no other batsman in this Eng land side is capable of playing on pitches that assist spin; which is ok as it is part of the learning curve. But that doesnt mean you start blasting the pitch when batsmen fail miserably.
-
Those arguments work well when the pitch starts to break up too early like it did in the Mumbai test vs Australia where Clarke got the 6-fer. If batsmen are unable to score runs on a tough pitch, it doesnt mean that the pitch is deemed bad. The wording in that wisden article made me laugh. “A Poor pitch is one that does not allow an even contest between bat and ball,” it says, “either by favouring the batters too much, and not giving the bowlers (seam and spin) from either team sufficient opportunity to take wickets, or by favouring the bowlers too much (seam or spin), and not giving the batters from either team the opportunity to make runs.
How many batsmen actually showed the patience to play a blockathon? The only response modern batsmen know when facing a tough pitch is to hit out/play unorthodox shots. I guess DRS is partly to blame for this since the batsmen cant really push their pads out to block out bowlers anymore. But there are ways to negotiate it. I did see the match and I do know that 21 out of the 30 dismissals were of straight balls which did not turn. Its just poor application from both sides.
The fact is that apart from Root no other batsman in this Eng land side is capable of playing on pitches that assist spin; which is ok as it is part of the learning curve. But that doesnt mean you start blasting the pitch when batsmen fail miserably.
The pitch had a crater of a foot mark after 25 overs! If that’s not “breaking down” I don’t know what is.
Yes England were abysmal. But you’re kidding yourself if you’re genuinely trying to say there was nothing wrong with this pitch.
Playing against high quality spin on a terrible pitch as this was - a “blockathon” is not feasible - survival is not a feasible batting approach, and the fact that you suggested that undermines your entire argument.
-
The pitch was dire, lets put that one to bed. 99% of people can agree on that.
What we can't agree on is how poor these England batsmen (couldn't care less really about India) are generally as one week they are 'world class' because they get a feather bed to wack on and the next when it's hard they simply can't bat. The question is.. where are the test quality batsmen going to come from going forwards ?
We have one player who avg over 40.. that's the root of the problem. irrespective of the peeps who will try and sell the 'Stokes avg this over 12 months' or 'Buttler avg that over 12 months'.. the fact is, we have shed loads of 30 something batsmen which tells everyone they aren't unto test standard. How do you fix that or do we accept white ball has corrupted the game forever? in which case there is no point worrying about red ball anyway because there is not much point in it
-
I’m not sure you even watched the game after your response.
But...
Just read this article - and it should enlighten you - https://wisden.com/series-stories/india-v-england/ahmedabad-pitch-rated-poor-heres-what-rules-say-icc?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3yGzhuLJ6eWNoEJ5NcfCxuCWQ1_xnnXKODHodRVTKbA_iT9bkD1uKDCkc#Echobox=1614334552
Thanks for posting that
Going by that official description theres no way this pitch could not be rated as 'poor'
Excessive turn and unevenness of bounce on day 1. So hits the poor rating on 2 criteria.
Will anything be done about it is the question?
-
The pitch was dire, lets put that one to bed. 99% of people can agree on that.
What we can't agree on is how poor these England batsmen (couldn't care less really about India) are generally as one week they are 'world class' because they get a feather bed to wack on and the next when it's hard they simply can't bat. The question is.. where are the test quality batsmen going to come from going forwards ?
We have one player who avg over 40.. that's the root of the problem. irrespective of the peeps who will try and sell the 'Stokes avg this over 12 months' or 'Buttler avg that over 12 months'.. the fact is, we have shed loads of 30 something batsmen which tells everyone they aren't unto test standard. How do you fix that or do we accept white ball has corrupted the game forever? in which case there is no point worrying about red ball anyway because there is not much point in it
Stokes over the last 2 years is averaging around 50, i think and is in the top 10 for batting in the world rankings. So its fair to say his performances of late HAVE been world class. People wouldnt be wrong to say that.
Whether we sit down at the end of his career and say he was a world class Test batsman or a batsman capable of world class knocks is a different question. Would you suggest leaving Stokes out because he averages below 40?
What I don't understand is your constant whinging and moaning about the same subject over and over again. Maybe watch something else if the evolution of cricket offends you?
Can I ask a serious question - what were your emotions when Stokes played that knock at Headingley in the Ashes? For most the greatest knock ever seen by an Englishman.
Because guess what - without limited overs cricket that knock wouldn't have been possible and England would have lost. If you enjoyed that knock you are a massive hypocrite. And if you didn't you are the strangest cricket 'fan' ever to live
-
Why I know player will enjoy being rested or rotated how slightly relieved do you think Jos Butler is right now. ;)
Got to bat and keep on the most benign wicket of the series and left with a 1-0 lead and his reputation pretty much intact if not slightly elevated in terms of his wicketkeeping. Talk about good timing!
-
Jeetan Patel just been hired Full Time as Spin Bowling coach. The 1st time we have had a full time on going spin bowling coach.
-
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/joe-root-england-india-ahmedabad-pitch-b1807833.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/joe-root-england-india-ahmedabad-pitch-b1807833.html)
-
Jeetan Patel just been hired Full Time as Spin Bowling coach. The 1st time we have had a full time on going spin bowling coach.
If we are going to have this series up there in importance with the Ashes...which we should...then this is a step in the right direction.
We only had Leach really plus a bit of Root to work with in the third test.
But the problem of developing spin in the County Championship remains a problem
-
Time to have ICC oversight and certification of all Test pitches before the match starts.
If this continues, Test cricket will be back to under-arm bowling.
The match referee and umpires do check the pitch before the games...
Was covering a ODI at Pune and had to wait for the officials to be happy with the wicket before the groundsman would mark it up. He had three pitches ready to choose from.
He then got caught on camera talking about how the pitch was a road and would be 330+ wicket.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41753622 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41753622)
That's interesting, I didn't know that.
So, either the match referee didn't do his job or the ball was made of depleted uranium and it messed up the pitch in a window of 2 days?
-
But the problem of developing spin in the County Championship remains a problem
As does the problem as developing batsmen who can occupy the cease for long periods of time. But we're not allowed to talk about either.
Just keep shouting out new names and hope the problem will go away.
-
As does the problem as developing batsmen who can occupy the cease for long periods of time. But we're not allowed to talk about either.
Just keep shouting out new names and hope the problem will go away.
It was interesting listening to the Wisden Podcast last night, they said that a lot of the Counties believe that the new 3 group system will encourage the Counties to play spinners and young players as there is less emphasis on promotion and relegation like the old CC, so less financial benefits at stake.
-
Why I know player will enjoy being rested or rotated how slightly relieved do you think Jos Butler is right now. ;)
Got to bat and keep on the most benign wicket of the series and left with a 1-0 lead and his reputation pretty much intact if not slightly elevated in terms of his wicketkeeping. Talk about good timing!
Interesting viewpoint, I fully accept it but I was actually thinking the exact opposite. For me, Foakes' glovework looked outstanding every time I turned the cricket on (to be fair I did not watch all of the matches so I may have missed some howlers?). I would be nailing foakes name to the teamsheet for the foreseeable. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a keeper standing up to a frontline English seamer like he did with broad (Jack Russell maybe?).
Maybe time to try the old fashioned approach of the best 5 batters, the best 5 bowlers and a proper keeper.
-
As does the problem as developing batsmen who can occupy the cease for long periods of time. But we're not allowed to talk about either.
Just keep shouting out new names and hope the problem will go away.
This is just disingenuous. I lurk on this forum a fair bit and have never seen people denying that the Championship being pushed to each end of the season is a barrier to developing these traits. But once you’ve agreed that, what is the point of repeating it over and over? It’s not as though the ECB are going to be browsing the CustomBats forum for ideas on how to reinvent the domestic season. People naturally pick teams because that is something tangible that could be changed on the spot, I think it would be a bit boring if they spent the time discussing how many Championship games should be played in August over and over again.
Addressing the actual point, I’m sure that the domestic season is structured with the aim of achieving the best balance between commercial viability of the counties and player development, also bearing in mind the impact of switching between formats on the latter. I know that you don’t like the fact that first class cricket doesn’t attract the same revenue as limited overs but it is the reality and you can’t push the format which people pay to watch into the margins of the season where they won’t to further subsidise the format that they generally don’t. Yes it’s not the perfect solution for the Test team but the ECB compensates for this with Lions tours and camps which build experience and skill in the kinds of conditions that are difficult to replicate in England.
Ok, the end result is that England haven’t acquitted themselves perfectly in India but looking back eight years shows you that nobody else has either. None of the other nations have developed a spinner who has excelled in India (apart from Steve O’Keefe!). The system still creates batsmen such as Burns and Sibley who are equipped to bat for long periods of time, just not on raging turners in India on their first tours there (like pretty much every non-generational batting talent that has been there for years).
Apologies for the long rant - I’m really not a sycophantic England supporter and I don’t pretend that they get everything right, I just find the relentless negativity in the face of cold hard reality a little difficult to read over and over again.
-
Interesting viewpoint, I fully accept it but I was actually thinking the exact opposite. For me, Foakes' glovework looked outstanding every time I turned the cricket on (to be fair I did not watch all of the matches so I may have missed some howlers?). I would be nailing foakes name to the teamsheet for the foreseeable. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a keeper standing up to a frontline English seamer like he did with broad (Jack Russell maybe?).
Maybe time to try the old fashioned approach of the best 5 batters, the best 5 bowlers and a proper keeper.
I think that unless his batting really becomes a liability, which based on his record and performances to date for England should be unlikely, then he should be a nailed on starter for years - but then I thought that before he got dropped the last time so who knows?!
-
This is just disingenuous. I lurk on this forum a fair bit and have never seen people denying that the Championship being pushed to each end of the season is a barrier to developing these traits. But once you’ve agreed that, what is the point of repeating it over and over? It’s not as though the ECB are going to be browsing the CustomBats forum for ideas on how to reinvent the domestic season. People naturally pick teams because that is something tangible that could be changed on the spot, I think it would be a bit boring if they spent the time discussing how many Championship games should be played in August over and over again.
Addressing the actual point, I’m sure that the domestic season is structured with the aim of achieving the best balance between commercial viability of the counties and player development, also bearing in mind the impact of switching between formats on the latter. I know that you don’t like the fact that first class cricket doesn’t attract the same revenue as limited overs but it is the reality and you can’t push the format which people pay to watch into the margins of the season where they won’t to further subsidise the format that they generally don’t. Yes it’s not the perfect solution for the Test team but the ECB compensates for this with Lions tours and camps which build experience and skill in the kinds of conditions that are difficult to replicate in England.
Ok, the end result is that England haven’t acquitted themselves perfectly in India but looking back eight years shows you that nobody else has either. None of the other nations have developed a spinner who has excelled in India (apart from Steve O’Keefe!). The system still creates batsmen such as Burns and Sibley who are equipped to bat for long periods of time, just not on raging turners in India on their first tours there (like pretty much every non-generational batting talent that has been there for years).
Apologies for the long rant - I’m really not a sycophantic England supporter and I don’t pretend that they get everything right, I just find the relentless negativity in the face of cold hard reality a little difficult to read over and over again.
Well said. I agree with that whole post!
-
There you go. It's 'too boring'.
If only people were as easily bored by the 'financial necessity' lie.
-
There you go. It's 'too boring'.
If only people were as easily bored by the 'financial necessity' lie.
Glad I wasted the time to write a reasoned post to get a reductive one liner in response!
It’s not too boring for me. I’ve attended all but two home Championship games at the Ageas bowl in a season before.
But if you want to ignore reality because you don’t like it then so be it.
-
But if you want to ignore reality because you don’t like it then so be it.
That'll be the 'no magic money tree' reality. :D
-
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/joe-root-england-india-ahmedabad-pitch-b1807833.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/joe-root-england-india-ahmedabad-pitch-b1807833.html)
The weight of Indian media saw it differently, while the top-scorer of the match, Rohit Sharma, went as far as calling it “a nice pitch to bat on”.
Talk about singing form the same hymn sheet, not a word on it from a commentator or a player. The BCCI propaganda machine run a tight ship!
-
The weight of Indian media saw it differently, while the top-scorer of the match, Rohit Sharma, went as far as calling it “a nice pitch to bat on”.
Talk about singing form the same hymn sheet, not a word on it from a commentator or a player. The BCCI propaganda machine run a tight ship!
Of course they have, but after the first test which.yes may of been a placid track but India lost, Kholi and Co threw the toys out and low and behold it's dust bombs for the next two matches.
The problem for us fans is .....we complain about e pitch and it's just because we lost. I'm actually glad Root has stopped short of mentioning the pitch, dead batting to those responsible.
We are away, we are going to get tracks that suit India. End of the day they have gone to extreames to do it.
Fair enough, we need to play spin better. Perhaps instead England should cut out some series and play in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan more often. I think the one day side has a tour to Pakistan coming up.
-
I don't see any value in wholesale changes for the final test. England without question got their team selection wrong and will need to address that but, with neutral match officials, England could have easily taken a first innings lead. I don't think any batsman from either team can be judged on what is the worst surface I have seem for a test match since the abandoned teat at Sabina Park
-
I think how bad the ball was had as much to do with it as the pitch. The fact that it skidded so much and shot off the pitch had a huge influence on the number of LBWs.
-
I think how bad the ball was had as much to do with it as the pitch. The fact that it skidded so much and shot off the pitch had a huge influence on the number of LBWs.
This image of 6 balls from the same over shows just just how impossible any sort of proper batting was. No criticism whatsoever of any batsman getting out on that
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF8W4j6R/20210226-195533.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
I don't see any value in wholesale changes for the final test. England without question got their team selection wrong and will need to address that but, with neutral match officials, England could have easily taken a first innings lead. I don't think any batsman from either team can be judged on what is the worst surface I have seem for a test match since the abandoned teat at Sabina Park
England got it wrong but the problem is Bess being jettisoned, we needed a second proper spinner, it looked like our seamers would do well under lights with a ball that moved more. I actually thought our seamers would win us this game, it def didn't work out that way.....
They recall Bess after public ally saying to go away and get better(which with no matches he cannot do) or throw Virdi in as a debut in an important series, or Parkinson.
We need a second spinner, who do they pick? I dunno what's happened with Bess but if he is physically fit he plays.
Maybe he told Ed Smith to stick his cravat up his (No Swearing Please)
-
I'm thinking the series win has gone. The most likely set-up for the last test is a featherbed or raging bunsen.
We know what several England players can or can't do - Burns / Bairstow / Broad etc show us nothing new. Stokes' bowling seems pretty pointless over there and they seem to be limiting how much he bowls so he's a batter only - I can't see that we need any more than 2 seamers for the last test, so let's rest a couple of the old warhorses and give some youngsters as chance to shine, to do something brilliant and uninhibited.
I say pick:
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Lawrence
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Stone
Bess / Virdi / Crane - whomever is bowling best in nets.
Decent batting down to 8, 2.5 seamers and 3.5 spinners
That lineup can't do any worse surely?
If England is going to try youngster I would replace Lawrence with Bracey and bat him at 3, with Root staying at 4.
-
If England is going to try youngster I would replace Lawrence with Bracey and bat him at 3, with Root staying at 4.
Pretty horrible debut for a leftie facing Ashwin on Indian pitches.
-
I think how bad the ball was had as much to do with it as the pitch. The fact that it skidded so much and shot off the pitch had a huge influence on the number of LBWs.
I don’t disagree but watching the 2nd innings and Root’s dismissal in particular, I did wonder in reality how easy it is for batsmen to persistently play for the straight ball when it is also turning and bouncing sharply. Root would have been consciously well aware of the threat of the ball skidding on and had seemed fairly clear-headed in his approach prior so it was a surprise that he made that mistake and I don’t think it would have been a conscious decision to play for turn. As you point out, the skid then made it impossible to cover it once it pitched and went straight on - it does make you wonder how often batsmen are normally bailed out by a late movement of the bat as well.
Having said that, his decision to go back in the first innings was strange as well so possibly less clear in his mindset than I think.
One thing that has been touched on earlier in the thread is why England were so keen to use the sweep and reverse rather than try to get down the track and hit straight given the ball was skidding on but I guess that is partly fear of being stumped with a couple of balls turning sharply each over and partly the success that Root in particular has had with that method recently. I do think that the impact of the general chaos and speed with which this game moved on has been downplayed, England had very little time to get their head around what the ball and pitch were doing. You could send that even Cook and Strauss in the studio were flustered trying to come up with the best approach to batting to win the game.
-
This image of 6 balls from the same over shows just just how impossible any sort of proper batting was. No criticism whatsoever of any batsman getting out on that
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF8W4j6R/20210226-195533.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
That must be what it is like facing me! Just on the next wicket over... :D :D :D
Absolute chaos!
-
It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!
-
It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!
Or, you know, one person has suggested selecting him rather than Lawrence, without detailing their rationale. Perhaps they are advocating it because he has more experience in top order positions - weren’t you complaining yourself about Lawrence being shoehorned in out of position at 3?
-
Without detailing their rationale? Yes, that'll be the one. Probably without having seen said player too?
I don't mind Dan Lawrence batting at 3, but think that the more Ollie Pope should have been given the responsibility first. Bairstow will get another go in the next Test.
-
Without detailing their rationale? Yes, that'll be the one. Probably without having seen said player too?
I don't mind Dan Lawrence batting at 3, but think that the more Ollie Pope should have been given the responsibility first. Bairstow will get another go in the next Test.
Ok, you’ve assumed that. I’m starting to get the vibe that you want people to scan in their county membership cards and post a detailed analysis of any player they want to suggest might play for England, just so you can throw it out with a one liner yourself. What is it that you actually want? A ban on people posting their proposed England teams? Or any new player to get a run of 10 Tests before anyone can comment on their suitability? Posters are going to do what the vast majority of cricket (and general sport) fans do and express their preferred team. They’re not claiming to be professional coaches or scouts or to have watched said players for years. I’m sure everyone gets by now that you don’t like that but I can’t help but feel that the forum would be more enjoyable without you reiterating it over and over again with no clear purpose!
-
It seems James Bracey is a better batsman than Dan Lawrence purely on the strength of not having played yet!
Given that Bracey is the only batsman in the tour party who's played more than the occasional county game batting at 3, it's hardly an outrageous suggestion that he could be given a go at this point... or would you rather noone paid attention to the county championship?
-
Or, you know, one person has suggested selecting him rather than Lawrence, without detailing their rationale. Perhaps they are advocating it because he has more experience in top order positions - weren’t you complaining yourself about Lawrence being shoehorned in out of position at 3?
That would be me and my rationale is that Lawrence has been tried and has not worked well in India. Also, I think Bracey is used to playing in the top three, but it was pointed out that he is a lefty and might struggle like the rest of the lefty’s against Ashwin. I still think it’s worth rolling the dice.
-
Stokes over the last 2 years is averaging around 50, i think and is in the top 10 for batting in the world rankings. So its fair to say his performances of late HAVE been world class. People wouldnt be wrong to say that.
Whether we sit down at the end of his career and say he was a world class Test batsman or a batsman capable of world class knocks is a different question. Would you suggest leaving Stokes out because he averages below 40?
What I don't understand is your constant whinging and moaning about the same subject over and over again. Maybe watch something else if the evolution of cricket offends you?
Can I ask a serious question - what were your emotions when Stokes played that knock at Headingley in the Ashes? For most the greatest knock ever seen by an Englishman.
Because guess what - without limited overs cricket that knock wouldn't have been possible and England would have lost. If you enjoyed that knock you are a massive hypocrite. And if you didn't you are the strangest cricket 'fan' ever to live
Stokes is totally different btw but
Remind me.. what did the world class Bairstow avg for 18-24 months? How's that turned out??
-
It was interesting listening to the Wisden Podcast last night, they said that a lot of the Counties believe that the new 3 group system will encourage the Counties to play spinners and young players as there is less emphasis on promotion and relegation like the old CC, so less financial benefits at stake.
playing a few younger players etc doesn't solve the issue of quality and development at red ball formats. If your young players are groomed on white ball and produced to be 'multi-format' players (which we know means specialising in white ball with a hint of ability at red ball in reality). then, all the said issues will remain as you won't produce from Top level to bottom red ball specialists because the white ball game is now so vastly different, fewer and fewer can transition between then and actually be successful.
Duckett being an example.. never going to make a red ball player in a month of Sunday's but he's bred for white ball so they just tag him into red ball teams. Better of not playing him and breeding red ball specialist batsmen
-
This is just disingenuous. I lurk on this forum a fair bit and have never seen people denying that the Championship being pushed to each end of the season is a barrier to developing these traits. But once you’ve agreed that, what is the point of repeating it over and over? It’s not as though the ECB are going to be browsing the CustomBats forum for ideas on how to reinvent the domestic season. People naturally pick teams because that is something tangible that could be changed on the spot, I think it would be a bit boring if they spent the time discussing how many Championship games should be played in August over and over again.
Addressing the actual point, I’m sure that the domestic season is structured with the aim of achieving the best balance between commercial viability of the counties and player development, also bearing in mind the impact of switching between formats on the latter. I know that you don’t like the fact that first class cricket doesn’t attract the same revenue as limited overs but it is the reality and you can’t push the format which people pay to watch into the margins of the season where they won’t to further subsidise the format that they generally don’t. Yes it’s not the perfect solution for the Test team but the ECB compensates for this with Lions tours and camps which build experience and skill in the kinds of conditions that are difficult to replicate in England.
Ok, the end result is that England haven’t acquitted themselves perfectly in India but looking back eight years shows you that nobody else has either. None of the other nations have developed a spinner who has excelled in India (apart from Steve O’Keefe!). The system still creates batsmen such as Burns and Sibley who are equipped to bat for long periods of time, just not on raging turners in India on their first tours there (like pretty much every non-generational batting talent that has been there for years).
Apologies for the long rant - I’m really not a sycophantic England supporter and I don’t pretend that they get everything right, I just find the relentless negativity in the face of cold hard reality a little difficult to read over and over again.
England haven't been any good since the Ashes down under that no one talks about..
-
Of course they have, but after the first test which.yes may of been a placid track but India lost, Kholi and Co threw the toys out and low and behold it's dust bombs for the next two matches.
The problem for us fans is .....we complain about e pitch and it's just because we lost. I'm actually glad Root has stopped short of mentioning the pitch, dead batting to those responsible.
We are away, we are going to get tracks that suit India. End of the day they have gone to extreames to do it.
Fair enough, we need to play spin better. Perhaps instead England should cut out some series and play in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan more often. I think the one day side has a tour to Pakistan coming up.
ah yes.. the white ball sides... that'll provide valuable experience .... on flat roads where they can hit through the line??? honestly, white ball games are played so differently from the way players play, bowl, format.. everything is different. playing a few white ball hit outs isn't going to train anyone in red ball stuff.
Let's not keep peddling that white ball in anyway helps red ball skills (other than odd times when out and out aggression is used)
-
Hasn't Archer taken test wickets with his variations (slower ball, knuckle ball)? Pretty sure he didn't develop those playing red ball cricket.
-
playing a few younger players etc doesn't solve the issue of quality and development at red ball formats. If your young players are groomed on white ball and produced to be 'multi-format' players (which we know means specialising in white ball with a hint of ability at red ball in reality). then, all the said issues will remain as you won't produce from Top level to bottom red ball specialists because the white ball game is now so vastly different, fewer and fewer can transition between then and actually be successful.
Duckett being an example.. never going to make a red ball player in a month of Sunday's but he's bred for white ball so they just tag him into red ball teams. Better of not playing him and breeding red ball specialist batsmen
On the basis that no country has even attempted this, do you think that it might be impractical to implement? Even Pujara is now signed up for the IPL for goodness sake! Counties are not going to be able to employ two specialist squads and players in either would be unhappy that they’re being pigeonholed in one format and missing out on opportunities in the other. I suspect by doing this you would actually weaken the talent pool available for marginal gains elsewhere.
Sibley is a decent t20 player, do you honestly think that it affects his ‘red ball’ game? Him, Burns, Root and Foakes are proper, experienced first class cricketers. Pope is a great prospect based on his record and the eye test. Stokes is what he is. Players will keep coming through who are more suited to first class cricket but fill in for their counties in limited overs, I really don’t think there is that much of an issue with it.
The Bairstow criticism I get fully but I think he has stayed around the team since 2013 through a combination/sequence of being a big prospect, a purple patch, being a keeping option, the mentality of the Bayliss era and that hundred in Sri Lanka. I don’t agree with it for the last few years but I think it’s coming to an end now anyway.
-
On the basis that no country has even attempted this, do you think that it might be impractical to implement? Even Pujara is now signed up for the IPL for goodness sake! Counties are not going to be able to employ two specialist squads and players in either would be unhappy that they’re being pigeonholed in one format and missing out on opportunities in the other. I suspect by doing this you would actually weaken the talent pool available for marginal gains elsewhere.
Sibley is a decent t20 player, do you honestly think that it affects his ‘red ball’ game? Him, Burns, Root and Foakes are proper, experienced first class cricketers. Pope is a great prospect based on his record and the eye test. Stokes is what he is. Players will keep coming through who are more suited to first class cricket but fill in for their counties in limited overs, I really don’t think there is that much of an issue with it.
The Bairstow criticism I get fully but I think he has stayed around the team since 2013 through a combination/sequence of being a big prospect, a purple patch, being a keeping option, the mentality of the Bayliss era and that hundred in Sri Lanka. I don’t agree with it for the last few years but I think it’s coming to an end now anyway.
Sibley - lets assess after 20 tests.. he seems to want to learn which is kudos to him but can't see him avg 40 plus (currently)
Burns - never looked like avg 40+ lets be honest
Root - one of the few who can multi format but again, he's no top order batter in red ball cricket. Multi format players (exception not rule) can play red ball, but generally in the middle order not top order (always the odd exception)
Foakes - Wk/Bat so slightly different rules apply but he's showing how vastly different it is compared to the more white ball of wk Bairstow/buttler
you only need 3-4 red ball specialists in a side.. top order bats, spinner, odd seamer.. not whole squads
all said and done
I'd stick with
Sibley
Burns
Crawley
for at least 12-18 months personally. give them the time to bed in or ultimately fail.
Root
Stokes
Pope
Again, consistent approach as above
Foakes
leech
Archer (unless he keeps bowling 135.. it's either 145+ or kick him out for Wood/Woakes/Broad)
Anderson/Broad (rotate the oldies)
1th players, change as you need for conditions
Kick Bairstow, buttler, curran into touch for good. Would rather they give chances to stone, bracey, Lawrence or A N Other players. We know the first 3 aren't really unto it. I would focus this group on red ball only as there are many white ball hitters like Morgan, roy, hales, Bairstow, Buttler etc who can focus then on white ball. pay them all well enough to mean they don't need to bother with the other formats or IPL. I'm sure the fat cats at the eCB and counties can take a pay cut to fund .. you know.. actual cricket
-
Given that Bracey is the only batsman in the tour party who's played more than the occasional county game batting at 3, it's hardly an outrageous suggestion that he could be given a go at this point... or would you rather noone paid attention to the county championship?
He's not actually in the squad that was picked to play in the Test series, is he? I think I'd like people to know a bit more than that they bat there for their county.
Jonny Bairstow has scored loads of runs for Yorkshire at no.3. In Division One.
-
He's not actually in the squad that was picked to play in the Test series, is he? I think I'd like people to know a bit more than that they bat there for their county.
Jonny Bairstow has scored loads of runs for Yorkshire at no.3. In Division One.
says more about the lack of quality in county games than anything. A Mr G.Ballance springs to mind
-
says more about the lack of quality in county games than anything. A Mr G.Ballance springs to mind
Yes, Garry Ballance is a good player at county level.
-
Sibley - lets assess after 20 tests.. he seems to want to learn which is kudos to him but can't see him avg 40 plus (currently)
Burns - never looked like avg 40+ lets be honest
Root - one of the few who can multi format but again, he's no top order batter in red ball cricket. Multi format players (exception not rule) can play red ball, but generally in the middle order not top order (always the odd exception)
Foakes - Wk/Bat so slightly different rules apply but he's showing how vastly different it is compared to the more white ball of wk Bairstow/buttler
you only need 3-4 red ball specialists in a side.. top order bats, spinner, odd seamer.. not whole squads
Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Leach, Bess, Anderson and Broad then? Not saying that they’re all world class (and realistically averaging 40+ opening in England at the moment would put you in that bracket) but my point is that I believe the Silverwood regime is actually moving in exactly the direction that you’re clamouring for.
Edit: Sorry, I see that you’ve since edited your post to say pretty much exactly this!
-
Yes, Garry Ballance is a good player at county level.
To be fair, he wasn’t exactly a terrible player at Test level: http://m.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/232438.html (http://m.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/232438.html)
-
Stokes is totally different btw but
Remind me.. what did the world class Bairstow avg for 18-24 months? How's that turned out??
I dont think a single person on this forum has called Bairstow world class. You've made that up yourself so you can have an argument.
Care to answer my question about the Stokes Headingley knock?
-
To be fair, he wasn’t exactly a terrible player at Test level: [url]http://m.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/232438.html[/url] ([url]http://m.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/232438.html[/url])
He started well but was a walking wicket as soon as teams realised where to bowl at him
-
He started well but was a walking wicket as soon as teams realised where to bowl at him
If averages play a part in working out over say 15 or 20 test matches Ballance would probably have the next highest batting average to Joe Root..if it’s compared with the current side, or over the last 12-24 months.
-
If averages play a part in working out over say 15 or 20 test matches Ballance would probably have the next highest batting average to Joe Root..if it’s compared with the current side, or over the last 12-24 months.
Yes true but it was the slide in averages that got him dropped. As i said he did begin well but the drop off was alarming.
Fast bowlers worked out that they could bowl as full as they wanted at off stump and he had no cover or straight drive to punish them. Sooner or later you're gonna get out lbw or bowled if you let bowlers bowl that full.
-
If averages play a part in working out over say 15 or 20 test matches Ballance would probably have the next highest batting average to Joe Root..if it’s compared with the current side, or over the last 12-24 months.
Would you have him in your current XI?
-
He started well but was a walking wicket as soon as teams realised where to bowl at him
I remember it fairly well. I think my general point is that County Cricket isn’t completely failing the England team if it produces players that can perform credibly at Test player, just because it doesn’t expose them (in that case) to 90+mph swinging thunderbolts that catch them on the crease or (in this case) pitches that are extremely conducive to high quality spin. Players are always going to have to learn to meet those challenges on the job to an extent, and that is why they pluck the players they identify as having those intangibles (e.g. Crawley) out early for more tailored development.
Just trying to keep a touch of realistic expectations in the conversation!
-
I dont think a single person on this forum has called Bairstow world class. You've made that up yourself so you can have an argument.
Care to answer my question about the Stokes Headingley knock?
really good knock. however, every player pretty much has one special knock you can point to. Bairstow for example has one.. Broad... Jennings... Balance.. all have one or two knocks. You use an average for a reason.. it's an indication of a player over the long term.
-
I remember it fairly well. I think my general point is that County Cricket isn’t completely failing the England team if it produces players that can perform credibly at Test player, just because it doesn’t expose them (in that case) to 90+mph swinging thunderbolts that catch them on the crease or (in this case) pitches that are extremely conducive to high quality spin. Players are always going to have to learn to meet those challenges on the job to an extent, and that is why they pluck the players they identify as having those intangibles (e.g. Crawley) out early for more tailored development.
Just trying to keep a touch of realistic expectations in the conversation!
Yeah and I fully agree with you. County Cricket could be improved but its not without merit.
Test Cricket away from home is bloody hard. India are the best team in the world, in my opinion. And the pitches have been about as difficult as you are going to get.
-
Would you have him in your current XI?
I think your description of him as a walking wicket is utter garbage. But It's your view and you are entitled to it.
ballance played 23 tests, 4 hundreds and 7 50's I think. And ended up after those 23 matches with an average probably, and I don't know this for sure, next best to Root if you compare it to the last couple of years-and who has played for us.
Ballance has had issues off the field and didn't play last year at all, he's not anywhere close to the England side and no one is saying he is.
What I'm saying is let's be reasonable about players, far too many of you on here label player as rubbish or walking wickets and your absolutely miles out with your opinions.
But I respect your point of view, the forum is better for reasoned arguments.
-
Jonny Bairstow has scored loads of runs for Yorkshire at no.3. In Division One.
Er.. he's played about three games at 3 for Yorkshire.
-
I think your description of him as a walking wicket is utter garbage. But It's your view and you are entitled to it.
ballance played 23 tests, 4 hundreds and 7 50's I think. And ended up after those 23 matches with an average probably, and I don't know this for sure, next best to Root if you compare it to the last couple of years-and who has played for us.
Ballance has had issues off the field and didn't play last year at all, he's not anywhere close to the England side and no one is saying he is.
What I'm saying is let's be reasonable about players, far too many of you on here label player as rubbish or walking wickets and your absolutely miles out with your opinions.
But I respect your point of view, the forum is better for reasoned arguments.
Wow someones in an aggressive mood today.
What I wrote about Ballance wasnt my opinion. The run of low scores is factual and can be checked via online scorecards.
The same about his mode of dismissal. Bowlers were targeting his front pad and he had no way of countering it. With that in mind he had become a walking wicket.
Dont think theres any need for your response just because I asked you a question. Which you still haven't answered
-
really good knock. however, every player pretty much has one special knock you can point to. Bairstow for example has one.. Broad... Jennings... Balance.. all have one or two knocks. You use an average for a reason.. it's an indication of a player over the long term.
You've missed my point completely.
You say you hate white-ball and how it negatively impacts Test cricket.
But the Stokes knock was positively impacted by his white-ball game. Reverse sweeps, slog sweeps etc.
So did you enjoy that knock or no?
-
Wow someones in an aggressive mood today.
What I wrote about Ballance wasnt my opinion. The run of low scores is factual and can be checked via online scorecards.
The same about his mode of dismissal. Bowlers were targeting his front pad and he had no way of countering it. With that in mind he had become a walking wicket.
Dont think theres any need for your response just because I asked you a question. Which you still haven't answered
The run of low scores is factual, the average over 23 matches is factual and can also be checked via on line scorecards/websites.
I'll answer your question, No is the answer.
Unless a player is already in the national team and doesn't play CC cricket for the reason he is playing so much for England, they can only be picked by playing Championship cricket.Ballance has not played CC cricket at all in 2020 and had a missing part of the season the previous year.
So No it would not be right to be selected on that basis, otherwise the Championship would have no value to the test side.
If the above situation was not the case and GB had continue to average 45-50 in the CC yes I see no reason why he could not be considered.
Should the situation arise both Ballance 2021 and Crawley 2021/Lawrence 2021/Pope 2021 and you had to choose I would go with the younger player to move forward with.
I trust that answers your question fully.
-
The run of low scores is factual, the average over 23 matches is factual and can also be checked via on line scorecards/websites.
I'll answer your question, No is the answer.
Unless a player is already in the national team and doesn't play CC cricket for the reason he is playing so much for England, they can only be picked by playing Championship cricket.Ballance has not played CC cricket at all in 2020 and had a missing part of the season the previous year.
So No it would not be right to be selected on that basis, otherwise the Championship would have no value to the test side.
If the above situation was not the case and GB had continue to average 45-50 in the CC yes I see no reason why he could not be considered.
Should the situation arise both Ballance 2021 and Crawley 2021/Lawrence 2021/Pope 2021 and you had to choose I would go with the younger player to move forward with.
I trust that answers your question fully.
Thanks. He wouldn't be in my team either.
-
You've missed my point completely.
You say you hate white-ball and how it negatively impacts Test cricket.
But the Stokes knock was positively impacted by his white-ball game. Reverse sweeps, slog sweeps etc.
So did you enjoy that knock or no?
as an individual knock.. yes
That is a very special and rare knock though.. very very very very rare
-
as an individual knock.. yes
That is a very special and rare knock though.. very very very very rare
So you enjoyed that knock that was massively influenced by all the white ball Stokes plays. Full of unorthodox limited overs shots. So do you hate white ball or no?
I think you have to take the rough with the smooth when it comes to the evolution of Test cricket. And accept its happening. Moaning is pointless
Yes the habit of playing at every ball makes techniques looser. But it also affects Test cricket positively, there have been some amazing knocks of late, counter attacking and 4th innings chases. And as someone else mentioned - bowlers are using T20 deliveries now in Test cricket aswell.
-
So you enjoyed that knock that was massively influenced by all the white ball Stokes plays. Full of unorthodox limited overs shots. So do you hate white ball or no?
I think you have to take the rough with the smooth when it comes to the evolution of Test cricket. And accept its happening. Moaning is pointless
Yes the habit of playing at every ball makes techniques looser. But it also affects Test cricket positively, there have been some amazing knocks of late, counter attacking and 4th innings chases. And as someone else mentioned - bowlers are using T20 deliveries now in Test cricket aswell.
hahahahahhaha
if you think all the 'rough' of red ball is outweighed by the very very rare onslaught (which was pre-empted by solid defence and the right match situation - take his SA knock previous.. that was just flat track hitting for example and not enjoyable in a test) like that when done in the right circumstances then that's not 'rough with the smooth' but more 'rough with a very very very very rare smooth'
players have used different deliveries for years as a bowler
-
It's next to impossible to imagine Headingley 2019 would of happened without the influence of one day cricket in the way Stokes, Buttler or Root play the game.
KP reverse hit Murali for 6 a few times in a test match few years ago, Gatting got out the reverse sweep against spin way way back and first did it in a one day WC back in 1987.
Aside from that the test game until pretty recently has been pretty conventional method of scoring runs.
And that's leaving out some of the outfielding we see now compared to matches way back-both in tests and one dayers.
I don't know how many members here remember us chasing a score in a test in Zimbabwe..it was the one we flipping murdered em but it was actually a drawn murdered series.
They stuck the fielders on the boundary and bowled wide of the stumps-we couldn't score the runs and the options were cut off
You can imagine that game played in 2021 the shots would not be the same and packing one side of the field probably would not work.
-
hahahahahhaha
if you think all the 'rough' of red ball is outweighed by the very very rare onslaught (which was pre-empted by solid defence and the right match situation - take his SA knock previous.. that was just flat track hitting for example and not enjoyable in a test) like that when done in the right circumstances then that's not 'rough with the smooth' but more 'rough with a very very very very rare smooth'
players have used different deliveries for years as a bowler
Id say you were very much in the minority if you didn't enjoy the Stokes knock in SA. He upped the tempo considerably to give England more time to bowl SA out. Which they did late on the 5th afternoon! I honestly can't believe that any cricket 'fan' wouldnt enjoy and see the merits of that.
You really are quite a strange old fish
-
This is one of the strangest arguments I've seen on CBF.
Lockdown will soon be over, and it will be cricket time! :D
-
Red ball white ball it the same really cricket has changed it got quicker more busy a bit like life really. Sport does immitate life.
I enjoy a 300 ball hundred like anybody but it the past mentioned influences I would say it life.
Techniques change but not much the main difference is players don't leave the ball as much any more.
As for this arguement on them spinning tops I suspect a 1930 test side top diamond arms and all would struggle. I for one am enjoying the series it's a bit pot luck but the team with the better spinners are winning. It's test cricket teams come to England and expect lateral movement in India you expect spin. Test cricket has not changed you get tested out in all conditions and your mentality is tested just as much as your technique.
Bit like football we will have our return leg and produce wickets that suit the home side soon enough.
-
My God - we're judging a lot of players on success in conditions that are totally alien, and expectations that are at best unrealistic.
Facing Ashwin and Axar on these pitches is a big ask - yes we could've done better, but some of these players (including batting against spin in SL) are on a hiding to nothing - this is not a realistic test of the skills of Sibley, Crawley, Pope and Lawrence.
I wager that Gill, Rahane, Pant and even possibly Kohli and Pujara would look as stupid as our boys if they batted at Trent Bridge, Edgbaston or a fresh Headingly against Broad, Jimmy, Woakes and Jof (not to exclude Sam Curran). These kids need time to develop in all conditions, over time - before we judge their careers.
-
My God - we're judging a lot of players on success in conditions that are totally alien, and expectations that are at best unrealistic.
Facing Ashwin and Axar on these pitches is a big ask - yes we could've done better, but some of these players (including batting against spin in SL) are on a hiding to nothing - this is not a realistic test of the skills of Sibley, Crawley, Pope and Lawrence.
I wager that Gill, Rahane, Pant and even possibly Kohli and Pujara would look as stupid as our boys if they batted at Trent Bridge, Edgbaston or a fresh Headingly against Broad, Jimmy, Woakes and Jof (not to exclude Sam Curran). These kids need time to develop in all conditions, over time - before we judge their careers.
I totally agree - and I think Pope Crawley and Sibley should stay in the side and be allowed to develop.
Exclude Sri Lanka, where Root was on a different level and there is a consistent failure to score big runs. There has been more success under Silverwood in terms of batting application, but my real frustrations lie with our ability to totally capitulate.
Being bowled out by Tim Murtagh bowling 70 mph a couple of years ago highlights the issue imo.
However - I hope that Sibley, Crawley, Pope, Bracey, and Lawrence all come good and develop into great players.
-
I totally agree - and I think Pope Crawley and Sibley should stay in the side and be allowed to develop.
Exclude Sri Lanka, where Root was on a different level and there is a consistent failure to score big runs. There has been more success under Silverwood in terms of batting application, but my real frustrations lie with our ability to totally capitulate.
Being bowled out by Tim Murtagh bowling 70 mph a couple of years ago highlights the issue imo.
However - I hope that Sibley, Crawley, Pope, Bracey, and Lawrence all come good and develop into great players.
I think we are a better side now than that test a couple of years ago. I think some of us had a drawn series down as a great result for us, I suppose we are going to get the same type of pitch and we were in the game last time so 2-2 would be great away on these pitches.
In reality we may go down 3-1. Unfortunately IMO some of the papers have England potentially pulling out Pope from the game thinking he is all at sea.
I can see the thinking but I do hope we stick with these younger batsmen, these conditions are about as hard as it gets.
We know Bairstow was brought in and did have some good small knocks in SL, but if the team is to develop Pope,Lawrence,Crawley and Sibley need backing and if they get out cheaply so be it.
I'd be more hopeful if we stuck with the younger batsmen, I'm not sure about Burns but the rest look OK to me.
I don't think anyone else would of done better on these wickets,experienced or not.
-
In reality we may go down 3-1. Unfortunately IMO some of the papers have England potentially pulling out Pope from the game thinking he is all at sea.
I can see the thinking but I do hope we stick with these younger batsmen, these conditions are about as hard as it gets.
We know Bairstow was brought in and did have some good small knocks in SL, but if the team is to develop Pope,Lawrence,Crawley and Sibley need backing and if they get out cheaply so be it.
I'd be more hopeful if we stuck with the younger batsmen, I'm not sure about Burns but the rest look OK to me.
I don't think anyone else would of done better on these wickets,experienced or not.
I really hope they don't stand Pope down - personally I'm not sure I would stand any of the batsmen down because they would be circumstances in which doing so would be a massive black mark for years to come. But particularly Pope because I genuinely don't think there was anything he could have done about those two dismissals.
-
My God - we're judging a lot of players on success in conditions that are totally alien, and expectations that are at best unrealistic.
Facing Ashwin and Axar on these pitches is a big ask - yes we could've done better, but some of these players (including batting against spin in SL) are on a hiding to nothing - this is not a realistic test of the skills of Sibley, Crawley, Pope and Lawrence.
I wager that Gill, Rahane, Pant and even possibly Kohli and Pujara would look as stupid as our boys if they batted at Trent Bridge, Edgbaston or a fresh Headingly against Broad, Jimmy, Woakes and Jof (not to exclude Sam Curran). These kids need time to develop in all conditions, over time - before we judge their careers.
Ha ha...so when England batsmen fail it is about setting the wrong expectations where as when Indian batsmen fail in English conditions they are classed as flat track bullies!
-
Ha ha...so when England batsmen fail it is about setting the wrong expectations where as when Indian batsmen fail in English conditions they are classed as flat track bullies!
It's definatley hard for the Indian batsmen to adjust to the conditions. But these green seamers the Indian players keep quoting in the press are misleading.
You don't actually get so many of those these days, it's more the overhead conditions that makes it alien to them, when the ball swings. Overheads no one can do much about and we have seen some real quality Pakistani bowlers using our conditions are causing havoc with swing conventional and reverse.
The Indian spinners will be nullified on our pitches but with the current pace attack India have over here should be a much closer contest.
The youngish England batsmen really do have their work cut out scoring runs against 2 very good...one world class...spinners on the wickets we have seen in the last 2 games.
Kholi has already scored plenty of runs in England and I think Rahane and Pujara will join him for the series here, maybe Gill as well.
-
Ha ha...so when England batsmen fail it is about setting the wrong expectations where as when Indian batsmen fail in English conditions they are classed as flat track bullies!
Where did I say that?
I think the Indian batsmen mentioned batted superbly at times in difficult conditions.
The point I was trying to make is that some of the players mentioned would find a raging green seamer with swing as alien as some young English players find spinning pitches. No-where is it inferred that Indian batsmen are judged differently to ours.
This reaction to perceived slights of sub-continental players is really rather tedious!
-
Ha ha...so when England batsmen fail it is about setting the wrong expectations where as when Indian batsmen fail in English conditions they are classed as flat track bullies!
This is not at all what @FattusCattus was saying. Think you misunderstood his point.
-
Patel says Bess is back in the frame and was 'very disappointed' to have missed the third test.
I bet he was.
Back on track now for 2 spinners
-
All this ‘we never grumble’ about conditions in the U.K/ same for both teams chat.
https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832 (https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832)
Here’s Virat moaning about the boundary sizes 😁
-
Ha ha...so when England batsmen fail it is about setting the wrong expectations where as when Indian batsmen fail in English conditions they are classed as flat track bullies!
Schrodinger's batsman? Simultaneously a flat track bully and ordering unacceptably poor pitches?
-
All this ‘we never grumble’ about conditions in the U.K/ same for both teams chat.
https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832 (https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832)
Here’s Virat moaning about the boundary sizes 😁
I didn't know there was a min-max rule to ODI games.
65 yards is nothing. Kohli is right!
-
All this ‘we never grumble’ about conditions in the U.K/ same for both teams chat.
https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832 (https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/cricket/48820832)
Here’s Virat moaning about the boundary sizes 😁
the boundary size is the same for the whole game though, it doesnt start bad and get much worse in less than 2 days
-
I didn't know there was a min-max rule to ODI games.
65 yards is nothing. Kohli is right!
I’d be inclined to agree it’s not ideal, but my point was more towards all the holier than thou Indian fans who’s have been saying that they put up with playing on cow fields in England and never complain. 😁
-
Kohli doesn't complain when he bashing it to all parts on postage stamp grounds in the IPL?
And its magic how those pitches are ROADS too.
I'm all for a pitch turning and spin playing its part but I don't get how you could score runs consistently on that pitch.
The only two batters to pass 50 scored most of their runs against the seamers early.
-
I’d be inclined to agree it’s not ideal, but my point was more towards all the holier than thou Indian fans who’s have been saying that they put up with playing on cow fields in England and never complain. 😁
I understand why you wrote it. :D
A number ("65 yards" for example) is exact and measurable; in my book, a complaint against a measured, but tiny boundary length, is a credible argument. A deteriorating pitch where one side struggled and other didn't is a bit of an "opinion". That 2-day Test match pitch was horrible but there is no way to measure anything regarding its quality other than the expedited outcome.
If you are looking for solutions, here is my proposal: a drop in pitch match whose characteristics (metrics) are picked by the hosting team; toss is reversed and a new (same characteristic) pitch is dropped for the second innings. That will make the Test match fair for both sides.
-
You don't actually get so many of those these days, it's more the overhead conditions that makes it alien to them, when the ball swings. Overheads no one can do much about ...
I don't think this is true. If that is the case, how is Eng able to prepare all those roads for ODIs.. Overhead can only do so much but still need the right pitch to make it to a seamer friendly or a road.
-
I don't think this is true. If that is the case, how is Eng able to prepare all those roads for ODIs.. Overhead can only do so much but still need the right pitch to make it to a seamer friendly or a road.
ODI cricket not seamer friendly in the UK?! It's not a coincidence that David Willey and Chris Woakes are opening powerplay phenomenons.
-
ODI cricket not seamer friendly in the UK?! It's not a coincidence that David Willey and Chris Woakes are opening powerplay phenomenons.
World record and previous world record ODI totals both at seamers paradise Trent Bridge....
-
World record and previous world record ODI totals both at seamers paradise Trent Bridge....
Both on very dry, sunny days with not much swing on offer IIRC?
-
ODI cricket not seamer friendly in the UK?! It's not a coincidence that David Willey and Chris Woakes are opening powerplay phenomenons.
While they do assist seamers somewhat, still last WC and recent ODI series in UK proves pitches are such that 300 plus scores are quite common. England chased 230 odd in 32 overs against Aus attack. Ban chased 322 against WI in 41 overs. Plus Eng made 397 in another game. You don't see such pitches in tests in UK. So cant believe the theory that pitches are what they are only due to overhead conditions.
-
White ball doesn’t really swing for long through does it?
-
Comparing test match pitches and ODI pitches in England is an odd comparison to make.
Some of our seamers do well that's true but there's not much swing on offer.
I don't know this for sure but think the traditional dukes or readers balls are not used here and a ball with less of a seam is used.
Happy to be corrected thou.
-
Both on very dry, sunny days with not much swing on offer IIRC?
Both day nighters to be fair, I was at both games, wasn’t that sunny.
Your statement sort of kills your previous argument, if the over head conditions aren’t there there’s is nothing to assist the seamers if it’s a road. But you can you prepare a track where the surface explodes in the first few overs to assist the bowler.
-
Both day nighters to be fair, I was at both games, wasn’t that sunny.
Your statement sort of kills your previous argument, if the over head conditions aren’t there there’s is nothing to assist the seamers if it’s a road. But you can you prepare a track where the surface explodes in the first few overs to assist the bowler.
So what exactly are you trying to argue here?
I think it's pretty common knowledge that the red ball does more for longer than the white ball, but also that the white ball does a bit early on which is probably why Woakes and Willey have had such white ball success.
Yes, ODI pitches will generally be more batsman friendly for 100 overs than Test pitches but I imagine those same ODI pitches might behave quite differently if they were played on for 5 days and hundreds more overs?
Not really an apples and apples comparison.
-
Who’s arguing? I thought we were all having a pitch discussion. 🙂
-
Who’s arguing? I thought we were all having a pitch discussion. 🙂
Argue - "give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view."
-
What world cricket badly needs today is tough challenging pitches all over the world. Pitches all around the world have been sobered down to cater to the wider audience who enjoys big run fests and boundaries galore. One of the biggest side effects of this change has been that the batsmen now take it for granted that pitches will be easy to bat on without much challenge. Which is why every time team play on a challenging pitch, more often than not sided get rolled over. People blame the pitches for test matches not lasting long but dont really see the reasoning behind it. Batsmen today are just not capable of handling tough pitches; be it excessive swing, spin or bounce. Home team are also worried about preparing tough pitches as they are not sure their own team will be able to last on it.
I strongly feel that the need of the hour is tough challenging pitches to bring back the skill element of the game. Looking at pitches today, I cant imagine what inspires young players to become a bowler! A change is needed. Which is why every country should prepare pitches which are challenging. The only country I see doing that today is NZ. I am sure weather conditions are part of the reason, but I cant remember a single pitch in NZ in recent times which was a road.
-
There’s a difference between challenging and totally weighted against batting though.
Pitch in their last test wasn’t ‘challenging’ the kiwis scored 600/6 at over 4 an over.
-
ODI cricket not seamer friendly in the UK?! It's not a coincidence that David Willey and Chris Woakes are opening powerplay phenomenons.
Well, Willey is not really a seam bowler. His weapon is swing.
-
Taking away from the pitch discussion
England have full squad available band jeetan Patel has said Bess is available
Back to two spinners?
-
For sure. Think it’s the batting that is the issue but not many options on the bench.
-
Taking away from the pitch discussion
England have full squad available band jeetan Patel has said Bess is available
Back to two spinners?
Drop one of Broad or Anderson, bring in Bess. Think they're left with very few other options, can't see them wanting anyone to debut in this game.
-
That's my thinking too,
Drop broad (Jimmy has been better) play Bess
Which does strengthen the batting slightly as well means archer at 9 which is still one place too high but looks a better balanced side
I'd have probably given woakes a run out too and rested both broad and Jimmy but I think he's flown home?
-
Yeah Bess back in and a seamer out. Back to the red ball and I think if we had Mo available we would go in with three spinners.
But whether to play the extra one England give a debut in this match I just can't see it.
Batting wise we don't have much left unless Lawrence comes back in, I hope they stick with Pope, he's had a rough ride but if he comes thru it may do him a lot of good.
I can't imagine this pitch will be anything other than like the previous one, in which case we will need somehow to put first innings runs on the board.
-
Agree with other posters in that I dont think we'll see a debut but I wouldn't mind seeing Virdi given a go.
-
Root has said the only spinners considered are the 2 in the ‘actual’ squad. So that definitely rules Virdi/Parkinson out.
-
Not surprising, can't see that it would be beneficial for either of them to be thrown into this game. Parkinson hopefully gets a bit of a go in the white ball stuff.
-
Totally agree with others here if we were going to try Virdi or Parkinson they should of at least had one test in SL, it's not really a game for debuts.
One seamer def will be left out, I know others won't agree but I def would not play Archer, he's a non batting bowler so Bess in for him.
I was real impressed with Stone, it's gonna be spin dominated again we think but I'd have him in probably leaving abroad out, just in case the wicket goes up and down after a day or so.
England probably will just make the one change for Bess to come in thou, they will want Archer in I think.i think Broad may miss out from the final 11 for Bess.
-
Would agree you need one of Archer or Stone in, especially given that Stokes doesn't seem to be capable of bowling much at the minute.
-
Would agree you need one of Archer or Stone in, especially given that Stokes doesn't seem to be capable of bowling much at the minute.
He's hasn't bowled much at all, im not convinced he is fully fit to bowl.
He hasn't actually been that effective in this series, he's done some amazing things for us but nothing here. I guess everyone e has an off series now and again.
-
Must be a really tough situation for England...do they pick their best XI, aim for a win knowing that the win would mean that arch rivals Australia qualify for the WTC finals...or they do use the 4th test as a good oppurtunity to try out their bench strength.
-
I don't think England will be thinking about the WTC at all, just purely on levelling the test series.
It's a pretty tough ask to just win this match, I can't believe anything else is in their thinking at all.
-
Bess in for Broad would be my only change.
-
Bess in for Broad would be my only change.
A sensible post.
-
Must be a really tough situation for England...do they pick their best XI, aim for a win knowing that the win would mean that arch rivals Australia qualify for the WTC finals...or they do use the 4th test as a good oppurtunity to try out their bench strength.
Good point. I say throw the test. The Aussies don't deserve to qualify on sportsmanship alone. They're still cheating, still sledging unfunny, pure aggression. Fck 'em. I only hope that they end up being marginalised as the only team in world cricket playing that way and their public turn against them.
-
Bess in for Broad would be my only change.
They won't do but I would like to see an extra batter, I really don't see the need for 2 seamers and Stokes if we are going to get another pitch like we have had.
-
They won't do but I would like to see an extra batter, I really don't see the need for 2 seamers and Stokes if we are going to get another pitch like we have had.
Stokes clearly isn't fit to bowl though
-
Stokes clearly isn't fit to bowl though
TBF we would only need 1 seamer on a pitch like the last one anyways and the way we are playing the more batting the better!
-
I'd go Bess, Stone and Virdi for Broad Archer and Anderson myself.
-
I'd go Bess, Stone and Virdi for Broad Archer and Anderson myself.
Pretty tough game to throw Virdi into as a debut. Would like to see Stone given another game though and Bess surely has to play after the last test.
-
Root has virtually said Bess is playing in interview, giving the slightly strange analogy that he has become a better player for missing two test matches.....which strikes me as odd, I know they all work on their game in the nets but being a bit of a gossip myself I reckon Bess, who we know is a very confident character, got a bit too cocky and England left him out for that reason.
A similar thing happened to Root on a tour of Australia allegedly.
I'd have Stone in for Archer and Bess for Broad. We are now seeing why the Moeen situation was so badly handled, whether anyone thinks he is any good or not he would be playing this test match-that gives the 3 spinners and then Anderson probably would be left out.
Instead the only option for the 3rd spinner is someone on debut.
It's hard to imagine this last wicket for the series will be anything different from the third test and spin and break up very quickly.
We(I) could be wrong but I just can't see it, India will want us out of this game quickly and it might even break up quicker than the last one.
-
Pretty tough game to throw Virdi into as a debut. Would like to see Stone given another game though and Bess surely has to play after the last test.
I sort of disagree.
He might as well play in conditions that suit him, and he has to start somewhere. Plus almost noone thinks England have a snowballs chance.
Oh, and I may have mentioned, I happen to think he's a superb bowler to boot.
-
I sort of disagree.
He might as well play in conditions that suit him, and he has to start somewhere. Plus almost noone thinks England have a snowballs chance.
Oh, and I may have mentioned, I happen to think he's a superb bowler to boot.
Think the worry would be his inexperience. Suppose the sink or swim approach has worked before though!
-
Root has virtually said Bess is playing in interview, giving the slightly strange analogy that he has become a better player for missing two test matches.....which strikes me as odd, I know they all work on their game in the nets but being a bit of a gossip myself I reckon Bess, who we know is a very confident character, got a bit too cocky and England left him out for that reason.
A similar thing happened to Root on a tour of Australia allegedly.
I'd have Stone in for Archer and Bess for Broad. We are now seeing why the Moeen situation was so badly handled, whether anyone thinks he is any good or not he would be playing this test match-that gives the 3 spinners and then Anderson probably would be left out.
Instead the only option for the 3rd spinner is someone on debut.
It's hard to imagine this last wicket for the series will be anything different from the third test and spin and break up very quickly.
We(I) could be wrong but I just can't see it, India will want us out of this game quickly and it might even break up quicker than the last one.
Hard to disagree with any of this. There was definitely something major behind the scenes with Bess. Particularly for Root to say what he said and it not be "corrected" as with Mo.
-
Think the worry would be his inexperience. Suppose the sink or swim approach has worked before though!
I would consider giving a debut to one of the spinners in the party. The pitch is bound to be a turner. I would just like whoever was chosen to be fully supported by the setup afterward , regardless of their performance. Unlike Crane's experience after Australia.
-
Difficult to throw a guy into a game like this on debut unless you are confident they have the character to stand up to it (which, given we opted to play an extra seamer in the third test, suggests there isn't that confidence). It seems to me that Virdi is there for experience and to see what he is like in that environment rather than as a genuine selection option. When you see what happened to Crane and Kerrigan, I would be reluctant to toss in a guy who looks like a genuine prospect unless they are sure he is ready for it
-
They won't do but I would like to see an extra batter, I really don't see the need for 2 seamers and Stokes if we are going to get another pitch like we have had.
Either Stokes isn't fit to bowl or he isn't judged to be worth using in these conditions so I would consider him a batsman only at this stage.
After that it is a question of whether an extra batsman would be more likely to win you the game than what either Anderson or Archer could manage with either the new ball or if it stats reversing. Personally I would take the bowler over an extra batsman that would leave Foakes batting at 8 with the tail
-
Thats, err, a lot more batting than I thought there'd be!
-
I think Eng can win this one if they bat decently in 1st innings. They did first step winning the toss. Bess and Leach to watch out for, my sixth sense says Bess will get another 5 wicket haul, Leach good as usual :)
-
Team is an interesting one. I'm not sure they will take 20 wickets, but I'll keep my fingers crossed. More importantly, we won the toss. Hope it is a better game than the last two!
England: Zak Crawley, Dom Sibley, Jonny Bairstow, Joe Root (capt), Ben Stokes, Ollie Pope, Dan Lawrence, Ben Foakes (wk), Dom Bess, Jack Leach, James Anderson.
-
Is audio only available over Internet? I am already tired of Swann on Hotstar. Want to mute the tv and listen to the radio.
-
URGH.
-
Sigh
-
Can we borrow Kieron Pollard to smash Axar Patel?
-
Talk about moronic
-
Stinker from Crawley right after he'd played a great shot...
-
My 1000th post on here is straight after an awful wicket.
Classic England! :D :D :D
-
This is hopeless
-
England just haven't looked with it at all this morning. Wonder if the length of time away from home and the pressure from the media is taking a bit of a toll now.
-
Can’t exactly blame the pitch, umpires or the neighbours dog being 30-3 first up
-
I think Stokes might have the right idea. Can't help but think Rohit Sharma could bat for days on this.
-
Certainly not a bad pitch to bat on. Siraj looks like he could be lethal in England when India tour.
-
Christ this commentary team haven't got any better since the last test. Gavaskar is absolutely awful.
-
They won't do but I would like to see an extra batter, I really don't see the need for 2 seamers and Stokes if we are going to get another pitch like we have had.
Just woke up and I can't believe it, I think this is the 1st time I have actually got a side right.
Still 3 down for naff all though
-
Well that's a pisser for Bairstow.
-
Some of these Indian fast bowlers are pretty impressive
-
They are decent and Bhumra is not playing and he's the best of the lot.
A bit surprised we have played the extra batsman, didn't see that coming. Stokes must be fit to bowl despite not bowling much so far in the series
This looks a more solid track so far, guess we have gambled a big score first innings and turning big later.
Of course that depends on 300-400 first not a 200 or 250....
-
Extra batsman gamble has paid off by winning the toss. Don’t mind that decision at all
-
I find that so annoying cos the replay obviously shows Washington is trying to spin that ball and is bowling an orthodox offspinner.
-
Urgh. What a rubbish scorecard to wake up to.
Thank goodness for Sir Ben Stokes.
-
We look nervous batting at the moment too.
If these two can hang in for half an hour they should get more confident.
We have no where near a score yet.
-
Playing the extra batter is great but only if you get runs on the board. We need a lot more, to also get miles in this pitch.
-
This is a much better pitch, enough to keep all types of bowlers interested, spin, pace but not so much it's a lottery, assuming it deteriotes it's a proper Indian wicket, also imo one that suits them more as well
-
This is a much better pitch, enough to keep all types of bowlers interested, spin, pace but not so much it's a lottery, assuming it deteriotes it's a proper Indian wicket, also imo one that suits them more as well
Yes definitely, it looks more solid now but no doubt it will spin more later, their seamers are good.
Don’t normally like playing an extra batsmen in a must win game but England have gambled here and Pope,Lawrence,Sibley have got to be backed.
Bairstow did a job in SL but I reckon it’s time to move forward.
We need Foakes to dig in again and we know he can do it.
-
The commentary team at it again, just absurdly biased in their commentary. "Bit harsh on the bowler" as Siraj fires a bouncer about 5 foot over the batsman and is called for a wide?
-
The commentary team at it again, just absurdly biased in their commentary. "Bit harsh on the bowler" as Siraj fires a bouncer about 5 foot over the batsman and is called for a wide?
got it on mute with talk sport on the radio instead
-
got it on mute with talk sport on the radio instead
If only TMS could do commentary!
-
Tough on Pope that. I reckon 230/250 keeps us in the game as long as we bat for today and the morning of tomorrow. Spinning already, add 24h of heat and sun to it and hopefully it starts to break down around lunch on day 2
-
If only TMS could do commentary!
commentators just shot his load over a ball that didnt turn being 'clever'
-
This is pathetic batting from England. I wouldn’t mind if every ball was turning square, but the bulk of wickets in this series have been down to them playing down the wrong line. I wonder whether they are listening to the old guard (silverwood and co) too much. They’re still scarred from Warne spinning them out in the 90s and 00s.
-
Not out
It's hit him in the end of his toes and the ground then popped up
-
This is pathetic batting from England. I wouldn’t mind if every ball was turning square, but the bulk of wickets in this series have been down to them playing down the wrong line. I wonder whether they are listening to the old guard (silverwood and co) too much. They’re still scarred from Warne spinning them out in the 90s and 00s.
I don't think so, just were not that good in these conditions
Silverwood has done a good job with the test side, we've had one bad tour and now hes the problem? Rubbish!
-
This tour has been about the hardest we can get I think.
Pope was very unlucky that’s a freak dismissal. Lawrence so far looks ok. He looks to score a bit more than Pope I think
-
I don't think so, just were not that good in these conditions
Silverwood has done a good job with the test side, we've had one bad tour and now hes the problem? Rubbish!
Yeah, biggest problem is inexperience. Look at how few tests this lineup have played in the subcontinent.
Suspect most, if not all, of the younger batsmen will come good given time. Sibley, Pope and Lawrence have all scored big runs in more familiar conditions plus Crawley has a test 250+.
-
We are screwed
-
perfect time for the jimmy reverse sweep
-
Under-par of course, but it's hardly like India have played spin better than us either...
-
Under-par of course, but it's hardly like India have played spin better than us either...
Watch them go out and make 400 now...
-
As Strauss says the non-turning spin ball does the damage again.
Never a 205 all out track - even with 8 batsman they’ve been poor again
-
God I love Jimmy
-
As Strauss says the non-turning spin ball does the damage again.
Never a 205 all out track - even with 8 batsman they’ve been poor again
Don't disagree but very pleased for Lawrence showing a bit of what he can do.
-
Pujura looking ominously untroubled.
TBH the thing that has most pissed me off about this series, is not our batting, or the pitches, or selection rotation thing...... It's the commentators!!!
They are spoiling very enjoyable and watchable test cricket with the most biased and ridiculous tripe I have ever heard in any sports commentary. I really do find it hard to believe how someone of the ability and experience of Gavaskar can talk so much (No Swearing Please)!
Rant over.
-
I really do find it hard to believe how someone of the ability and experience of Gavaskar can talk so much (No Swearing Please)!
Remember when Michael Vaughan was a shrewd, winning national hero of a leader?
-
Suraj has come out and accused stokes of swearing at him. Slightly ironic virat got involved given he abuses most players himself
-
Suraj has come out and accused stokes of swearing at him. Slightly ironic virat got involved given he abuses most players himself
He accuses everyone. In Australia , he accused of crowd of racism (later given clean chit after investigation). Now, stokes . in the future some other accusations.
Accuser no. 1. Lollipop boy, shouldn't be playing cricket if is not tough.
-
Suraj has come out and accused stokes of swearing at him. Slightly ironic virat got involved given he abuses most players himself
He's moaning he got swore at??
Really? Wow
-
Pujura looking ominously untroubled.
TBH the thing that has most pissed me off about this series, is not our batting, or the pitches, or selection rotation thing...... It's the commentators!!!
They are spoiling very enjoyable and watchable test cricket with the most biased and ridiculous tripe I have ever heard in any sports commentary. I really do find it hard to believe how someone of the ability and experience of Gavaskar can talk so much (No Swearing Please)!
Rant over.
One of our own is equally as bad...Swann. It's sound off for me straight away.
I grew up listening to Benaud and it's hard to top that, but some of them are awful.
-
Lucky that I'm in school (work) today so can't have sound on!!
Having seen the majority from half 5 I have to say there are some positives to take out of another crap day!
Pope and Lawrence look like they've really worked on their games and found a better method, admittedly were not playing on a ploughed field this week!
Were not actually out of it but need Bess and leach to turn up tomorrow with Jimmy, we have to keep parity at worst
Stokes seemed back to himself after a quiet series
-
Swann’s an absolute prat and The Indian commentators are no better.
The likes of cook and Strauss are a borefest. The best of the lot so far has been Ebony Rainford
-
Swann’s an absolute prat and The Indian commentators are no better.
The likes of cook and Strauss are a borefest. The best of the lot so far has been Ebony Rainford
We are right at the bottom of the barrel then ! :)
-
Suraj has come out and accused stokes of swearing at him. Slightly ironic virat got involved given he abuses most players himself
its SIRAJ not SURAJ...and he hasnt 'come out and accused Stokes' ... he was asked about the on field scuffle and just said what had happened.
-
He accuses everyone. In Australia , he accused of crowd of racism (later given clean chit after investigation). Now, stokes . in the future some other accusations.
Accuser no. 1. Lollipop boy, shouldn't be playing cricket if is not tough.
He has every right to raise a concern if he felt he received racist abuse! People have all the sympathy when people of a certain race are abused in football, but if an Indian cricket raises his voice against racist abuse he is not tough enough? Pathetic!
-
He has every right to raise a concern if he felt he received racist abuse! People have all the sympathy when people of a certain race are abused in football, but if an Indian cricket raises his voice against racist abuse he is not tough enough? Pathetic!
Two separate issues going on here. In Aus, if Siraj even thinks somebody made a racist comment then he has every right to report it and see the process followed through. Not just to stand up for himself but if people get away with racist comments then they'll abuse somebody else before long.
Not so keen on "Stokes swore at me", nothing seems to be mentioned about what he said to Stokes which you'd assume was not "well played Benjamin". Threats and personal abuse don't really belong on the cricket pitch but general swearing I think grown men can handle.
-
205 is not a bad score.
Lets wait till both sides have batted on the same pitch before passing judgement.
-
Two separate issues going on here. In Aus, if Siraj even thinks somebody made a racist comment then he has every right to report it and see the process followed through. Not just to stand up for himself but if people get away with racist comments then they'll abuse somebody else before long.
Not so keen on "Stokes swore at me", nothing seems to be mentioned about what he said to Stokes which you'd assume was not "well played Benjamin". Threats and personal abuse don't really belong on the cricket pitch but general swearing I think grown men can handle.
Words get exchanged on the field, Kholi had some with Stokes and Bairstow which Benji has said were nothing out of the ordinary in a competitive match. If it's not racists it's what happens out there in the heat of battle.
Stokes has also said it's the toughest batting conditions he's faced, as we thought this is mighty hard.
England were poor today I thought, pitch was fairly standard for a first day, bit of spin but not much and something for the seamers early on.
I'm gonna forgive Lawrence for a brain fade on one shot he played well and Pope was unlucky after showing some application.
We are behind again I think 100 short but at least there was something to cling on too.
I've said this before but I don't generally think 7 batsmen is the way to win a test but Lawrence regardless of where he bats for Essex may have more of a chance in the middle order.
And yes I know it's packed already....not everyone an bat 5, it's an issue we have had for a while now.
-
I tried looking up the Siraj-Stokes-Kohli spat but didn't find much except for Siraj's account of what happened. It could've been something he had had said earlier and Stokes decided to even the score.
As much as I despise sledging, I don't see how people can keep their mouths shut in high pressure environments like Test cricket. Let the ball or bat do the talking, gents. ;)
Now, I wonder what kind of sledging goes in women's game?
-
I don't think 205 is a bad score. Ind haven't batted great either, have a few dead wood batters among themselves plus add that the pitch will deteriorate more in coming days. Plus this pitch is assisting pacers a bit more, so Anderson is always in the game. And then Ind have to bat last, just imagine this pitch if it gets to even day 4. All depends on how Ind 1st innings goes.
-
I don't think 205 is a bad score. Ind haven't batted great either, have a few dead wood batters among themselves plus add that the pitch will deteriorate more in coming days. Plus this pitch is assisting pacers a bit more, so Anderson is always in the game. And then Ind have to bat last, just imagine this pitch if it gets to even day 4. All depends on how Ind 1st innings goes.
This is a much better pitch. I will be very surprised if India dont score atleast 350 batting first. England seem to be relying too much on their part timers. That doesnt work every time.
-
2 or 3 quick wickets tomorrow morning and we are right in the game.
Kohli's comments previously about getting into the batsmen just to wind himself up when things are quiet, i think this is a bit over the line but i dont think hes the only one in test cricket doing it. there are certain players who make mistakes when you get under their skin but it seems to be getting more and more personal.
-
2 or 3 quick wickets tomorrow morning and we are right in the game.
Kohli's comments previously about getting into the batsmen just to wind himself up when things are quiet, i think this is a bit over the line but i dont think hes the only one in test cricket doing it. there are certain players who make mistakes when you get under their skin but it seems to be getting more and more personal.
That hope is good but if England doesn't do so, feel its going to be a long day for England.
Just don't understand the selection from England . On a rank turner from day 1, they go with 3 quicks and on a good sub continent wicket , they go with only three specialist bowlers.
If things don't go as planned part timer root and stokes will also have to do a bulk of bowling. Stokes lately just doesn't bowl enough overs.
Rather than going with 7 bastman on a decent batting wicket, I would have gone with Woakes in place of either Lawrence , pope or bairstow.
woakes is a decent enough batsman late down the order and would have added a lot to the bowling strength along with balance of the side.
England's selection and pitch reading hasn't been good this series.
-
Woakes wasn’t available he went home after the third Test
-
That hope is good but if England doesn't do so, feel its going to be a long day for England.
Just don't understand the selection from England . On a rank turner from day 1, they go with 3 quicks and on a good sub continent wicket , they go with only three specialist bowlers.
If things don't go as planned part timer root and stokes will also have to do a bulk of bowling. Stokes lately just doesn't bowl enough overs.
Rather than going with 7 bastman on a decent batting wicket, I would have gone with Woakes in place of either Lawrence , pope or bairstow.
woakes is a decent enough batsman late down the order and would have added a lot to the bowling strength along with balance of the side.
England's selection and pitch reading hasn't been good this series.
Can't help but agree, I think we need a magic spell tommorow morning to get back in the game.
Woakes is back home after not playing any games in SL or on this tour,he's good enough to do a job with the ball and contribute with the bat.
The rotation has been necessary we know that, in hindsight it may of been better to miss one tour or the other, not parts of both for some players.
The pitches we have got a bit wrong, but we've handicapped ourselves a bit with Bess missing the last two and Mo back home a couple of weeks ago.
Root has had his hands tied a bit I think, I'm not aware of any of the regular one day players missing from the ODI's that follow the test series.
-
Woakes wasn’t available he went home after the third Test
Didn't know that. Just read the news, he was sent home for rotation policy. How can you send home a guy who didn't play a single test match.
You are rotating to manage the workload of players but then he hasn't done any work.
-
Didn't know that. Just read the news, he was sent home for rotation policy. How can you send home a guy who didn't play a single test match.
You are rotating to manage the workload of players but then he hasn't done any work.
I’d guess it’s to help his mental well-being? Must be torture being in that hotel all these weeks considering he never got a single game.
-
Didn't know that. Just read the news, he was sent home for rotation policy. How can you send home a guy who didn't play a single test match.
You are rotating to manage the workload of players but then he hasn't done any work.
Woakes was a slightly different case as he was close to Moeen who tested positive when they arrived in SL, then quarantined so therefore missed the SL game....even thou he might not of been picked.
I'm with @Jeff Navarro, I think the bio bubbles are very hard for the players and if you don't play a single game that must take a toll on you mentally.
We already saw when Mo was asked to cancel his rotation time he said no. Maybe there was some bad management there also as I read he was asked on the last day of the test to stay on for the second.
-
Woakes was a slightly different case as he was close to Moeen who tested positive when they arrived in SL, then quarantined so therefore missed the SL game....even thou he might not of been picked.
I'm with @Jeff Navarro, I think the bio bubbles are very hard for the players and if you don't play a single game that must take a toll on you mentally.
We already saw when Mo was asked to cancel his rotation time he said no. Maybe there was some bad management there also as I read he was asked on the last day of the test to stay on for the second.
Think it's also sometimes forgotten that Moeen has young kids at home. They, and his wife, would have been told he was coming home at the agreed time. Wouldn't be easy for him to then tell them that he was staying on with his work for another couple of weeks.
-
Think it's also sometimes forgotten that Moeen has young kids at home. They, and his wife, would have been told he was coming home at the agreed time. Wouldn't be easy for him to then tell them that he was staying on with his work for another couple of weeks.
Absolutely agree, same situation for Woakes. From what I have read regarding Mo, and we know it's a difficult situation to handle, it's was a dogs breakfast.
He was totally entitled to have his rotation break, as is any other player away from the bubble.
Root worded his departure badly but this was a management issue and there's not much to defend the England management on this I don't think.
-
Did anyone else think Pants glove/finger strapping, contravene the rules?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51004684792_3bb0ce8932_c.jpg)
-
Did anyone else think Pants glove/finger strapping, contravene the rules?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51004684792_3bb0ce8932_c.jpg)
Normal fielders can buddy-tape their fingers... why would it be illegal for keepers?
-
Normal fielders can buddy-tape their fingers... why would it be illegal for keepers?
Because you could classify it as webbing which joins those gloved fingers together; the only allowed join is between index finger and thumb.
27.2 Gloves
27.2.1 If, as permitted under 27.1, the wicket-keeper wears gloves, they shall have no webbing between the fingers except joining index finger and thumb, where webbing may be inserted as a means of support.
27.2.2 If used, the webbing shall be a single piece of non-stretch material which, although it may have facing material attached, shall have no reinforcements or tucks.
27.2.3 The top edge of the webbing shall not protrude beyond the straight line joining the top of the index finger to the top of the thumb and shall be taut when a hand wearing the glove has the thumb fully extended.
-
Interesting. If anything though, his way of taping seems to make it harder to catch - he’s closed the gap completely between two fingers, whereas webbing is a bit more flexible and actually helps catch the ball.
-
Yesss
-
What a ball to get Kohli
-
Ah, some Bess drivel
-
Root should really bowl now, but they’ll have to let Bess throw down some more half trackers in order not to offend him 👎🏻
-
Great end to the session from Jimmy. Need to get Pant very early to stay in the game.
-
Kohli going for absolutely zip has really made my week, so poetic that it was Stokes.
-
What a peach from Stokesy
-
What a time for Stokes to start turning it on in this series
Come on England!!
-
Root bowling Stokes into the ground here as per usual.
-
Root bowling Stokes into the ground here as per usual.
Not much choice when you've picked two seamers and Bess is bowling filth.
-
Big wicket for Leach. We need to clear out the tail for nothing..Anderson?
-
Here comes some filth from Bess
-
Root bowling Stokes into the ground here as per usual.
Who’s the next seaming option? Does anyone even bowl some filthy wobblers?
-
How's he not given that!!!
-
Who’s the next seaming option? Does anyone even bowl some filthy wobblers?
I don't think we have a trott, bell or Trescothick in the side any more
-
How's he not given that!!!
I don’t see how it was umpires call, clearly half the ball was hitting either top of stump/bails, but that’s the technology
-
We’re into the forth match and not much has gone our way
That looked absolutely out to me
-
Apparently Bairstow has delivered one first class over of medium pace, rest of the top order all bowl spin. Where's Keaton Jennings when you need him?
-
Get Bairstow on for some quality mediums, that's my kind of outside the box thinking.
-
I reckon Pope bowls something like Bell. They are clones of each other.
-
Crawley looks like he should be able to extract some bounce, probably bowls filthy offies though.
-
Pretty sure Crawley once said in an interview that he bowled part time seamers/medium pace!
-
There’s no way Bess should be playing this match. Confidence is shot to pieces.
-
With this filth how could Bess even get selected for 1st team club cricket never mind county and international cricket !
-
Think Gavaskar has lost his marbles...he is debating with L Sivaramakrishnan about Ashwin being a better all rounder than Stokes! Ridiculous! Ashwin is a great bowler and a handy batsman but there is no comparison.
-
Think Gavaskar has lost his marbles...he is debating with L Sivaramakrishnan about Ashwin being a better all rounder than Stokes! Ridiculous! Ashwin is a great bowler and a handy batsman but there is no comparison.
Pretty tough comparison tbh, ones a batter who bowls some very handy seam and the others a top class spinner who is a very handy bat.
-
Bess desperately needed that Pant wicket to settle him down and boost a bit of confidence I think
-
Stokes looks fried!
-
Pretty sure Crawley once said in an interview that he bowled part time seamers/medium pace!
Cannot express strongly enough how much I would enjoy seeing this.
-
Any momentum we had has well and truly been sucked out
-
Yeah we concede too many on first innings we will go like a pack of cards
-
Looks like the selectors have got the teams wrong for this match and the last. Something in it for the seamers in this one with the extra bounce.
Pitch seems to be decent and both teams haven’t batted great
-
You must be kidding me, Jimmy reverse swept by pant.
This is some counter attack
-
Pant could well end up as his generation’s AB de Villiers
-
The curse of going with only 3 specialist bowlers finally showing up.
Why couldn't root hold stokes a few over back for the new ball. He looks gassed out flat with the new ball.
-
We are cooked here but Pant has played brilliant
England took a very big gamble with the extra batsman. It will work but we needed 400 on the board otherwise we’re stuffed
-
Even the most dedicated England fan had to enjoy that knock from Pant, outrageous batting.
-
England's team selection has cost them dearly in this series! An Archer or Stone would have had been very effective on this surface. Whoever analyzes the pitches for the England team should be fired!
-
Stokes back on this is a heroic effort he was cooked about an hour ago
-
Bess serving up more full tosses. Village stuff
-
There’s no way Bess should be playing this match. Confidence is shot to pieces.
If anything, I blame the team management. The moment Bess got dropped after the 2nd test, his confidence must have hit a bottom low.
He had a decent performance in the 1st test, was among the wickets in the first innings with the big scalp of Kohli. His confidence would have been running high especially with that Kohli wicket.
But, the moment u get dropped after a decent performance, u r doing nothing but shattering the confidence of a young bowler.
The spin duo of bess and leach was in my team the whole series and these two should have played the whole series in these sub continent condtions.
-
* after the 1st test
-
Even the most dedicated England fan had to enjoy that knock from Pant, outrageous batting.
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him grind England into the dirt there given it's not a road. Very different watching something like that when it's not a road. You know it's sheer talent. Take a bow son.
England just aren't very good, over hyped when they beat a few minnows and then come crashing down when it counts
-
Two good sessions followed by a really poor one, just highlights how poor we were with the bat
-
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him grind England into the dirt there given it's not a road. Very different watching something like that when it's not a road. You know it's sheer talent. Take a bow son.
England just aren't very good, over hyped when they beat a few minnows and then come crashing down when it counts
England aren't very good... In these conditions
Why with you is it always one team is rubbish? Rather than a team has played well
I agree England havnt had a good series but that doesn't make them a bad team
-
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him grind England into the dirt there given it's not a road. Very different watching something like that when it's not a road. You know it's sheer talent. Take a bow son.
England just aren't very good, over hyped when they beat a few minnows and then come crashing down when it counts
Can’t agree with this at all. India are strong at home and we were in this game until about an hour ago.
Very few people on this forum say England are brilliant even us die hard fans are not that one eyed
-
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him grind England into the dirt there given it's not a road. Very different watching something like that when it's not a road. You know it's sheer talent. Take a bow son.
England just aren't very good, over hyped when they beat a few minnows and then come crashing down when it counts
Hilariously off brand, if you are looking for a ‘biffer’ who just hits through the line in Test cricket it’s Pant (not saying he doesn’t execute it well).
As for not very good, I don’t even disagree but if that Bess ball is a few millimetres lower (no way the umpire gave it not out on height either) then they’re going in to bat with a first innings lead.
-
If anything, I blame the team management. The moment Bess got dropped after the 2nd test, his confidence must have hit a bottom low.
He had a decent performance in the 1st test, was among the wickets in the first innings with the big scalp of Kohli. His confidence would have been running high especially with that Kohli wicket.
But, the moment u get dropped after a decent performance, u r doing nothing but shattering the confidence of a young bowler.
The spin duo of bess and leach was in my team the whole series and these two should have played the whole series in these sub continent condtions.
Agree totally. We always were going to need two spinners even if there was some help predicted in the daylight match
In my opinion it all starts when England public ally tell Bess to 'go away and get better', whatever he needs to improve keep it behind closed doors.They are basically saying he's unselectable for the next match at least.
Then I guess they presumed Mo would forego his rotation break and stay on with the idea Leach and Mo play together.
Mo said no, rightly he wanted his break after notplaying in Sri Lanka.
From there the seeds of poor management are sown and the team is already up against it in a hard series.
-
Only selecting one frontline seam bowler is looking very daft as well. They got the selection wrong last test with one frontline spinner and they've repeated the trick this time. Root is clearly good enough as second spinner to give Leach a break when the pitch is offering something to the quicks.
India have been better but England have been undone by their own poor planning as well. Hopefully Bess gets a chance to go away and hone his craft at first class level because there's clearly a talented player in there.
-
I don’t think Root can be your second spinner thou, he can be our third...but we need 2 frontline ones thou on this tour.
And yes we surely needed an extra seamer here instead of a batsman..it can work playing 7 batters but we need 400 plus-something we have not done after the first test.
It was always going to turn big..just a matter of when in the game
-
This sort of selection happens though when you don't trust your batting. You no longer pick your team based on a simple formula, your head starts thinking about the needs for runs first and foremost even before thinking about anything else.
If the top 5/6 are batting well then we wouldn't even consider playing an extra batter and then Jofra or Stone get picked etc.... To need a specialist batter at 7 is actually pretty desperate measures when you think about it
-
Stokes looks fried!
Yep. Maybe Bess could bowl some dibbly dobblers instead of filthy off spin. Options are endless for Root's outside the box thinking.
-
I'd have been totally against the idea in principle, but iit is worth noting that the seventh batsman scored a sizeable chunk of our runs. (Ironically, there were many forumites who were looking forward to seeing his bowling on this tour!)
Couldn't it be that the England team is actually somewhere between 'embarrassment of riches' brilliant and 'sack the lot of them' crap? And who they select (within reason) doesn't really change this a great deal?
-
I'd have been totally against the idea in principle, but iit is worth noting that the seventh batsman scored a sizeable chunk of our runs. (Ironically, there were many forumites who were looking forward to seeing his bowling on this tour!)
Couldn't it be that the England team is actually somewhere between 'embarrassment of riches' brilliant and 'sack the lot of them' crap? And who they select (within reason) doesn't really change this a great deal?
Well it depends. If we do everything we can to win or draw(a good result) the series lots of things need to go our way.
Big players performing
Right selection
Luck with first use of the pitch
Luck with umpires decisions going our way
The Indians having a few off days over the series.
So we need all this to compete.
It's worth noting a few posts on here slating the England team, not you @Bats_Entertainment. The last tour of India was lost 0-4.
We had a chance in this match and it's gone now. What I'm saying is we are doing better than the last time we were here, you could argue India then we're better than they are now, but the current side just beat Australia away.
-
Well done
the Hyena Rishabh Pant, he changed momentum and has made the game harder now for England to get on top of. This is what Ben Stokes should've been doing during this test series.
I also think popular opinion is being too harsh on our spin bowlers. Yes they need more consistency, but that's never going to happen when there is this level of pressure put upon them, due to the batting unit not doing their job.
-
Dom Bess was never anywhere near ready for Test cricket. (Sorry, Buzz!). I don't blame him - he's a decent wholehearted cricketer - I blame the system.
-
That innings certainly felt like what Buttler should be cable of but never quite seems to have delivered. Maybe he just lacks Pants reading of the game, or finds it hard to switch gears/modes in that way.
-
You could argue Bess’ luck finally ran out - Some of his wickets in Sri Lanka and in the first test were from poor deliveries. That lucks disappeared now and the selectors dropping him didn’t help his confidence
-
You could argue Bess’ luck finally ran out - Some of his wickets in Sri Lanka and in the first test were from poor deliveries. That lucks disappeared now and the selectors dropping him didn’t help his confidence
Yes totally, he did get giveaway wickets in SL. He's also been handled badly.
-
I'd have been totally against the idea in principle, but iit is worth noting that the seventh batsman scored a sizeable chunk of our runs. (Ironically, there were many forumites who were looking forward to seeing his bowling on this tour!)
Couldn't it be that the England team is actually somewhere between 'embarrassment of riches' brilliant and 'sack the lot of them' crap? And who they select (within reason) doesn't really change this a great deal?
The 7th batter did score a sizeable chunk but then when you have the opponent 146/6 down and grabbed him by the throat , u can't choke him to death cuz ur bowlers r gassed out and have nothing left in the tank. And this is the downside of going with only 3 specialist. Getting bundled out for 160ish and and bundling out your opponent for 200ish from 146/6 would have been a lot better than the opponent leading by almost 100 with still 3 wickets in hand.
This is where I feel someone like woakes should have added so much balance to the side. Did he voluntarily asked to leave or was he forced to leave due to rotation policy . If he was forced then where is the equivalent replacement of an allrounder? another all rounder in moeen ali sent home. where are the backups then.
understand this bio bubble stuff can be hard on players mentally. if someone have mental breakdown or fatigue due to this then in all honesty send him home. but if a player want to stay and theres no backups why send him. missing family, chidren back at home etc. can't be an excuse for a professional cricketer.
-
Dom Bess was never anywhere near ready for Test cricket. (Sorry, Buzz!). I don't blame him - he's a decent wholehearted cricketer - I blame the system.
You've written many times the CC does not produce enough spinners and you're right.
Bess is 23, still younger than when Swann was considered too immature to be picked.
I'm not saying Bess will be as good as Swann but I for one hope we stick with him and under Patel finds a strong action and develops.
I don't know why he moved to Yorkshire,that seems restricted opportunities as well, he may of been better binning the Championship and playing in India,Sri Lanka or even Bangladesh.
If we do not work with these players we will never get anywhere. I'm struggling to think of a more badly handled situation than Bess and leaving him out breaking what rhythm he had,then back in as a 'better player' just for being dropped.
I can't think of one.
-
Although I have said that Bess was picked for England too soon, I actually don't think that he should have been dropped knowing that Moeen Ali would be leaving
Does this make sense? Probably not!
Swann has admitted he wasn't mature enough when he was first picked. And he'd have bowled a hell of a lot more overs in county cricket.
-
The 7th batter did score a sizeable chunk but then when you have the opponent 146/6 down and grabbed him by the throat , u can't choke him to death cuz ur bowlers r gassed out and have nothing left in the tank. And this is the downside of going with only 3 specialist. Getting bundled out for 160ish and and bundling out your opponent for 200ish from 146/6 would have been a lot better than the opponent leading by almost 100 with still 3 wickets in hand.
Like I said, I don't really like seven batsmen. But, remember also, that eight of England's wickets fell to spin. So another seamer isn't necessarily what we are sadly lacking?
-
Although I have said that Bess was picked for England too soon, I actually don't think that he should have been dropped knowing that Moeen Ali would be leaving
Does this make sense? Probably not!
Swann has admitted he wasn't mature enough when he was first picked. And he'd have bowled a hell of a lot more overs in county cricket.
Makes sense to me. If Ali had stayed on, pretty sure he would of been picked with Leach, and Bess as the 3rd spinner if we needed it.England left it far too late to ask Ali from newspaper reports, and he's entitled to take his rotation break-everyone else has.
-
Like I said, I don't really like seven batsmen. But, remember also, that eight of England's wickets fell to spin. So another seamer isn't necessarily what we are sadly lacking?
A gun second spinner would have been ideal, but we don't have that. An extra seamer would, if nothing else, have at least allowed Stokes and Anderson more of a breather, if nothing else. But it's easy to be wise post fact.
-
I was playing devil's advocate a little. I'd have kept the balance of the side the same for both the last Test and this. 2 spinners, 2 seamers and Stokes.
It is easy to be wise after the event, but most of us went with this before the event. And it's not often I give people people on here credit for being better at selection than those who actually pick the side!
-
I was playing devil's advocate a little. I'd have kept the balance of the side the same for both the last Test and this. 2 spinners, 2 seamers and Stokes.
It is easy to be wise after the event, but most of us went with this before the event. And it's not often I give people people on here credir for being better at selection than rhose who actually pick the side!
I guess the counter argument here is that without Lawrence's knock we'd have been ever further in the brown stuff. The definitely haven't got selection right, but it's been tough all things considered, and I don't think anyone expected the 3rd test to be quite so spin dominated as it was, being under lights.
-
I guess the counter argument here is that without Lawrence's knock we'd have been ever further in the brown stuff.
The point I initially made.
-
This side would’ve been perfect in the 3rd test match. And the 3rd test match side would’ve been perfect in this game.
The selectors have got it wrong badly. I know the batsman haven’t performed but shocking selection decisions
-
That innings certainly felt like what Buttler should be cable of but never quite seems to have delivered. Maybe he just lacks Pants reading of the game, or finds it hard to switch gears/modes in that way.
Or it could be that the Indian management has told Pant to go out and play his natural game and not worry.
-
Does Ranji Trophy (India) allow international players as professional? Maybe that is what the England spinners should do and join minor teams to get better. Major teams like Mumbai, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, etc might not go for it but the minor ones might especially if ECB says we will pay the players salary but you have to play them if they are fit.
I know Foakes spent couple of months in Sri Lanka when he was not part of England squad. Not sure if he was hired by the local club or he paid his way to play for the local club.
-
Or it could be that the Indian management has told Pant to go out and play his natural game and not worry.
He batted sensibly for his first 50 runs and played the situation. He took his chance once the bowlers were tired. It was good game awareness from a cricketer who’s thrown it away in the past
-
Guy's, you need to step back.
What has failed us more - a newly capped test spinners odd full toss, or the continued collapse of a batting unit who don't lack 'game' time?
It's really that simple.
-
Agree, while everyone agrees Bess has to improve, think folks are bit too harsh on him considering his age and experience. If experienced batsmen don't deliver, can't really blame the younger guys.
-
Does Ranji Trophy (India) allow international players as professional? Maybe that is what the England spinners should do and join minor teams to get better. Major teams like Mumbai, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, etc might not go for it but the minor ones might especially if ECB says we will pay the players salary but you have to play them if they are fit.
I know Foakes spent couple of months in Sri Lanka when he was not part of England squad. Not sure if he was hired by the local club or he paid his way to play for the local club.
Ranji trophy doesn’t allow overseas players - think Panesar, Bopara, Samit and Hameed tried in the past to use their Indian heritage but they were told no.
IIRC Kohli even asked them to reconsider in Hameed’s case.
-
Or it could be that the Indian management has told Pant to go out and play his natural game and not worry.
Maybe, I doubt Buttler has been told too much different from that, he just seems to struggle to find how to play except in one day-esq run chases.
-
Guy's, you need to step back.
What has failed us more - a newly capped test spinners odd full toss, or the continued collapse of a batting unit who don't lack 'game' time?
It's really that simple.
It’s hard to blame Bess, rather than the system that’s put him there.
Given the pitches we’ve played on and the attack they have (and how their batters have failed against our -much weaker- spinners) it’s hard to expect too much more form them tbh. Especially given how many of them haven’t played in India before.
-
Or it could be that the Indian management has told Pant to go out and play his natural game and not worry.
The big difference between the white ball and test sides for me is that the white ball team seem to have the freedom to play knowing that they will be backed if it goes wrong. I don't get that impression with the test side. Look at the dismissal this series and few have fallen to big shots. More often that not, batsmen have been tied down going nowhere, then get the pressure of men round the bat. Whereas Rohit and Pant have taken the game to the English bowlers, there hasn't been the same pressure applied to the Indian bowlers.
Silverwood has come in and put a marker down that the side is going to bat for time. That is a bigger error in my view.
-
Game ends today I think
-
The big difference between the white ball and test sides for me is that the white ball team seem to have the freedom to play knowing that they will be backed if it goes wrong. I don't get that impression with the test side. Look at the dismissal this series and few have fallen to big shots. More often that not, batsmen have been tied down going nowhere, then get the pressure of men round the bat. Whereas Rohit and Pant have taken the game to the English bowlers, there hasn't been the same pressure applied to the Indian bowlers.
Silverwood has come in and put a marker down that the side is going to bat for time. That is a bigger error in my view.
The bigger error is trying to issue a team wide directive. Instead of that, each batsman’s natural style should be encouraged and groomed. Look at India - they have Pujara, as well as Pant. The great Aussies of the past had Katich as well as Gilchrist. Let each player do his own thing, as that is a higher percentage strategy than trying to force a player to bat a certain way.
-
That's a tough on for Sundar, deserved a ton.
-
Skittled for 180 odd I reckon
-
Crawley looks in good touch, he just needs to get settled.
-
Hopeless
-
Can we now admit that Bairstow is not a test number 3?
-
Get Bairstow out of this team for good
-
Start the car.
-
Why exactly is Sibley playing a big sweep there? Did they learn nothing from how Pant and Sundar started their innings?
-
That's rotten luck for Sibley
-
Why exactly is Sibley playing a big sweep there? Did they learn nothing from how Pant and Sundar started their innings?
That's a bit harsh. Root has played 5/6 sweeps since he came in and no-ones having a go at him.
-
No issues with it either, just an incredibly unlucky dismissal
-
Stokes on the other hand...
-
That's a bit harsh. Root has played 5/6 sweeps since he came in and no-ones having a go at him.
Root is a better sweeper and even he top edged one. Stokes now out trying to sweep as well.
-
And another top edged sweep, put it away!
-
Do have to wonder if they're just mentally shot as well
-
Start the plane.
-
Probably, I think were seeing the effect of bubbles mixed with plating in India which is tough at the best of times
Let's not forget families are on your for some of the time normally
-
I'm not gonna lie, I just want to see some spinners dispatched into the stands. A last hurrah.
-
Poor batting - this wicket is your typical Indian wicket. It’s not a 40-4 track
-
I'm not gonna lie, I just want to see some spinners dispatched into the stands. A last hurrah.
Got your wish there 😂
-
Brain dead dismissal from Bairstow and Stokes with a man round the corner, got to say I feel For Sibley, gets a bit of stick at times for his negative style and now shows some intent and gets out in an unlucky fashion.
Overall the lack of a quality pair of spinners along with our national sides inability to build a foundation at the top of the innings has cost us on this tour. Certainly some positives to take from some players on this tour l feel
-
Brain dead dismissal from Bairstow and Stokes with a man round the corner, got to say I feel For Sibley, gets a bit of stick at times for his negative style and now shows some intent and gets out in an unlucky fashion.
Overall the lack of a quality pair of spinners along with our national sides inability to build a foundation at the top of the innings has cost us on this tour. Certainly some positives to take from some players on this tour l feel
Certainly some positives to take. Leach has looked a much improved bowler, Stone looked really good in his one run out, Anderson shows no sign of slowing down and Foakes' keeping has been excellent.
-
Pope was trying bit too much. Intentions were there but lack of patience
-
What an absolute capitulation this is.
-
All will be forgotten when England win the summer series with the swinging ball....seen it too often
-
I've not been sure about Pope for some time. A very talented young player, but I don't think he's ready at this level yet. He's been protected at Surrey, batting largely at 5/6. He needs to become their dominant batsman, who controls his teams innings. He doesn't seem to know his own game at the moment. I look at someone like Sam Hain as someone who is the main man in his team, and others play around him. These are the type of player who need to be looked at and given a chance.
-
Not seeing this as all doom and gloom by any means. Pant and Sandar played really well just when we were getting back into it.
Batting wise I'd leave Bairstow now to be a White ball player, but stick with the younger batsmen.
Sibley is the sort of mentality we need to dig in and try to bat all day.
Pope,Lawrence,Crawley, all need an extended run.
The only real question for me is during a home series if Foakes stays keeper(I don't think he will but should) is Buttler one of our best batsmen just on batting.
If Burns and Bairstow go out of he team there is a space for a batsman.
-
Pope is more than ready; came into this series with no cricket under his belt, and I'm sure over the summer he'll have a decent chunk of Championship cricket under his belt before the India series starts. Just come up against a world class bowler in Ashwin, and I think most youngsters would struggle...
Same applies to the likes of Crawley, Sibley, Lawrence etc; they all need extended runs in the side instead of being brushed aside for blokes who simply aren't up to the job like Bairstow...
-
Do we know feel that if and it’s a big if but Bairstow is now done with Test cricket that we leave Foakes to be the keeper and play Butler as a batsmen only? With an order or squad something like this
Burns/ or another
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Butler
Pope/Lawrence
Foakes
Woakes/Archer/broad/Stone
Leach/Bess/Virdi
Anderson.
-
People have given Buttler plenty of stick on here but let’s face it, he is clearly one of the top batsmen in this test side. I would only put Root and Stokes above him.
-
People have given Buttler plenty of stick on here but let’s face it, he is clearly one of the top batsmen in this test side. I would only put Root and Stokes above him.
Batting wise last 1-2 years he's played pretty solid. He's also adapted from the one day game to bat differently in tests.
He is also a good player of spin.
Just one the shedules for the tests and one dayers, come the first 2020 England have a full team to pick from.
Not making excuses but Root has been a bit handicapped here by the priority given to the one day game.
-
After Root, Foakes looks clearly the next skillful player of spin. Gets right to the pitch of the ball , kills the spin right there and then . shuffles nicely to the back foot for slightly shorter ones. above all just looks so solid and confident out there. just sad he is batting no 8.
Apart from these two, these young english batters look just clueless. just don't have the technical ability and skill to play spin.
-
After Root, Foakes looks clearly the next skillful player of spin. Gets right to the pitch of the ball , kills the spin right there and then . shuffles nicely to the back foot for slightly shorter ones. above all just looks so solid and confident out there. just sad he is batting no 8.
Apart from these two, these young english batters look just clueless. just don't have the technical ability and skill to play spin.
Foakes currently averaging 15 for this series?
-
Foakes has been batting far too low. He’s been left with the tail in the previous games so that explains his average
-
Foakes currently averaging 15 for this series?
Am talking about art and skill of playing spin. And don't forget he had to bat with tailenders unlike with a pure batsman at other end. He had a not out in his 40s and other times he had to take risks and get out when he is batting with no. 11.
Its out skill and confidence that someone shows out there in the middle. And to me foakes has done that.
-
Foakes has been batting far too low. He’s been left with the tail in the previous games so that explains his average
Foakes also didn't play the first test which was comfortably the best batting surface of the whole tour.
-
Not sure that’s true barring the 2nd test first innings where he was left not out.
His role in the team is to bat with the tail, as he does at Surrey, isn’t it?
No doubt he has looked comfortable against spin but does he not need to score runs at the same time?
Can’t remember a dismissal where he hit out playing with the tail.
-
Foakes currently averaging 15 for this series?
He must be second in the averages then! ;)
-
Not sure that’s true barring the 2nd test first innings where he was left not out.
His role in the team is to bat with the tail, as he does at Surrey, isn’t it?
No doubt he has looked comfortable against spin but does he not need to score runs at the same time?
Can’t remember a dismissal where he hit out playing with the tail.
he will score runs if he is given chance slightly higher up the order.
he may not have the runs behind his back but i would rather have a guy like him who has the technique to dug it out in the middle than the ones who look like they are going to get out ever other ball.
-
That’s his series done. The end is near
-
I've been impressed with Lawrence. He's grown in confidence and is starting to look like he can play at this level, especially now batting 5/6. I think he's done enough to merit a run in the team.
-
Feel sorry for axar, he’ll be dropped as soon as jadeja’s fit and probably won’t get another test match
-
I've been impressed with Lawrence. He's grown in confidence and is starting to look like he can play at this level, especially now batting 5/6. I think he's done enough to merit a run in the team.
Definitely looked better down the order a bit. Not sure how he fits in at 5/6 though with Stokes and Buttler presumably back.
-
Definitely looked better down the order a bit. Not sure how he fits in at 5/6 though with Stokes and Buttler presumably back.
Our problem no.3 spot won't go away!
-
England's batting in summary...
Wickets in clusters...
-
Definitely looked better down the order a bit. Not sure how he fits in at 5/6 though with Stokes and Buttler presumably back.
But they find room for Pope! :(
-
Our problem no.3 spot won't go away!
No obvious candidates unless the likes of Pope could move up the order in more familiar conditions?
-
Our problem no.3 spot won't go away!
But it does..
Bat Crawley there like he should
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Problem solved... If not burns then whichever opener is scoring loads in county cricket
-
For how well Lawrence has played
That's a (No Swearing Please) way to get out
-
Embarrassing performance
-
7th consecutive innings with team total less than 206. just shameful.
-
England could have been allowed to bat with 11 batsmen and they would have still lost it. Just didn't expect this kind of pathetic performance from them in such a vital series.
-
Aside from the 1st test, this is the worst performance in a series from England for a very long time. There are zero positives to take away from it.
Opening partnership is a mess.
No idea who should be batting at 3.
Root’s ability to captain and bat seems to have disappeared again.
Stokes batting at least one spot too high.
No idea where pope should be batting.
No idea who should be keeper.
No effective spinners.
Old/ unfit fast bowling unit.
No idea about judging the pitch and picking a side to reflect conditions.
No idea how to play spin.
Clueless rotation policy.
They’ll take the easy out though... they’ll simply say it’s a work in progress and their focus is on the ashes.
-
7th consecutive innings with team total less than 206. just shameful.
That's a very specific number for a stat.. just to prove a point
-
That's a very specific number for a stat.. just to prove a point
was going to put no. 200 as stat but then 6th was 205 where they were given a round of applause when they crossed 200
-
Beaten by the better side.
They used the conditions better have better spinners and somebody always stood up (batsman) and they have better batsman in them conditions.
Move on and improve.
Lots of positives for me to take away some batsman found wanting and some bowling found wanting too.
They built pressure when bowling we didnt.
-
For everyone going off at the performances on this tour I think you need to take a serious reality check!
Since Cook, Pietersen etc all in 2012 this Indian team have lost just one Test and won 28 out of 34. India had won all of their last eight Tests at home, including six by an innings. That's almost 10 years of home tests! The one they lost took the innings of the century (voted by wisden) by Steve Smith as well.
Went into this series with numerous players touring India for the 1st time. Which included 4/5 out of the top 7 batters.
We also rotated in and out all series, getting selection wrong along the way.
India is the hardest away series, ask any ex-player and we made it harder for ourselves.
Anyone who thought this wasn't going to happen is deluding themselves.
I just hope they use the experience to learn going forwards
-
The big difference between the white ball and test sides for me is that the white ball team seem to have the freedom to play knowing that they will be backed if it goes wrong. I don't get that impression with the test side. Look at the dismissal this series and few have fallen to big shots. More often that not, batsmen have been tied down going nowhere, then get the pressure of men round the bat. Whereas Rohit and Pant have taken the game to the English bowlers, there hasn't been the same pressure applied to the Indian bowlers.
Silverwood has come in and put a marker down that the side is going to bat for time. That is a bigger error in my view.
Clueless
It's a test match side. Each TEST Quality batsmen needs to be able to blend attack and defence. Some will have more aggressive or defensive natures and skill sets (difference between top order and middle order generally) but even so, still need to be able to adapt. The above mentality is quite simply.. white ball mentality .. I bat this way and refuse to adapt/change as the circumstance demands. That is a lack of ability both mentally and technically after all.
-
Aside from the 1st test, this is the worst performance in a series from England for a very long time. There are zero positives to take away from it.
Opening partnership is a mess.
No idea who should be batting at 3.
Root’s ability to captain and bat seems to have disappeared again.
Stokes batting at least one spot too high.
No idea where pope should be batting.
No idea who should be keeper.
No effective spinners.
Old/ unfit fast bowling unit.
No idea about judging the pitch and picking a side to reflect conditions.
No idea how to play spin.
Clueless rotation policy.
They’ll take the easy out though... they’ll simply say it’s a work in progress and their focus is on the ashes.
Thats just not true...
1) Sibley is one for the long term
2)Crawley
3) he'll be ok, it's not his fault noone else could score any runs either, he had an ok series
4)he isn't, one bad series shouldn't make his spot change
5) he is exactly where he should be, 6 is perfect for him
6) fokes should be but it'll be butler, butler could be played as just a batsman
7) Leach? He had an ok series without ever having any score board pressure therefore very few attacking fields, bess will be a decent second spinner just needs to get some more form and get some more experience
8) that's just a ridiculous thing to say, Jimmy is fitted than ever, broad not far behind, only real injury concern is jofra elbow, mark wood getting better and better with his new run up and decent back ups in Wolkes and stone etc
9) one mistake test 3 impacted test 4, agree that's not good enough but it sits with the management
10) that wasn't good enough but is a young side who are working on their game, just look at Sibley at the start of Sri Lanka compared to now. This is also the first real experience of this level of spin bowling.
11) rotation obviously not ideal but necessary to look after mental well-being of the players and to keep them as fresh as possible for the ashes. It's obvious why it's being done. And there is a huge focus on winning world T20.
Externally yes but I think internally they will know they have work to do. The silver wood / root combination is very honest within the group and an away ashes series is always the focus of England's test cricket no matter other teams they play against that hear. It's a fact, that's how English cricket is and we may not like it but we have to accept that's how it is.
There are plenty of positives. We do appear to have found a better batting depth and there are some areas better than others. Our fast bowling stocks are still decent. Yes this series has been rubbish but there's no need for such a blatant over reaction. This negativity doesn't solve anything and just try to see the positives which are clearly there.
-
Aside from the 1st test, this is the worst performance in a series from England for a very long time. There are zero positives to take away from it.
Opening partnership is a mess.
No idea who should be batting at 3.
Root’s ability to captain and bat seems to have disappeared again.
Stokes batting at least one spot too high.
No idea where pope should be batting.
No idea who should be keeper.
No effective spinners.
Old/ unfit fast bowling unit.
No idea about judging the pitch and picking a side to reflect conditions.
No idea how to play spin.
Clueless rotation policy.
They’ll take the easy out though... they’ll simply say it’s a work in progress and their focus is on the ashes.
Top 3 isn't a mess.. it's just A) not very good B) inexperienced.... Burns has never looked like a world beater and is showing said fragility but there isn't anyone better so we might as well stick with him. Sibley/Crawley are for the long term so as long as they are learning and looking to bat long every innings all is good. The 'positive' intent is for the middle order.. just bat time in the top 3 as that's what we lack and is required.
Root - again.. he's had a mini purple patch and people have yet again over reacted thinking he's going to churn out the runs.. He's our only world class batsmen now but let's not forget.. he's not great at digging in when needed.. he is good at cashing in when the batting is easier but he is still our best. personally not going to beat on him too much but do wish he'd bat long more often and not just when he can score quickly.
Stokes - Still think 5 is too high but he is our next best batter. I still don't like that he naturally attacks when we need him to dig in . he's shown he can but does he do it enough? Still, hard to be overly critical. Do think it's the difference between him avg'ing 45+ at the end of his career and 40-42 (do think he'll finish low 40's though)
Pope - Under whelmed overall this series but first innings he showed really good skill and mindset. just unlucky.. Sadly, he's also shown a tendency to want to put bat on ball to much. Would be nice to see him look to bat time for 5-80 runs then accelerate.
Foakes - far superior to Buttler and should keep his spot. sadly he won't.
Anderson/Broad - Still our best bowlers
archer - his elbow seems chronic.. that's worrying.. can see him sacking off red ball in favour of white ball short spells
Wood - glad to see him sack off the IPL. Obviously injured
Stone - Might as well play him in rotation with Wood as the paceman
Woakes - chronic knee and his batting is now dire but we need to play him
Curran/Bairstow can do one to white ball and become mercenaries for hire.
Buttler - Ideally would fight for a top 6 spot (although, can only see him at 6 and wouldn't put him in ahead of pope now)... sadly, he's loved and will come back in for Foakes
-
Top 3 isn't a mess.. it's just A) not very good B) inexperienced.... Burns has never looked like a world beater and is showing said fragility but there isn't anyone better so we might as well stick with him. Sibley/Crawley are for the long term so as long as they are learning and looking to bat long every innings all is good. The 'positive' intent is for the middle order.. just bat time in the top 3 as that's what we lack and is required.
Root - again.. he's had a mini purple patch and people have yet again over reacted thinking he's going to churn out the runs.. He's our only world class batsmen now but let's not forget.. he's not great at digging in when needed.. he is good at cashing in when the batting is easier but he is still our best. personally not going to beat on him too much but do wish he'd bat long more often and not just when he can score quickly.
Stokes - Still think 5 is too high but he is our next best batter. I still don't like that he naturally attacks when we need him to dig in . he's shown he can but does he do it enough? Still, hard to be overly critical. Do think it's the difference between him avg'ing 45+ at the end of his career and 40-42 (do think he'll finish low 40's though)
Pope - Under whelmed overall this series but first innings he showed really good skill and mindset. just unlucky.. Sadly, he's also shown a tendency to want to put bat on ball to much. Would be nice to see him look to bat time for 5-80 runs then accelerate.
Foakes - far superior to Buttler and should keep his spot. sadly he won't.
Anderson/Broad - Still our best bowlers
archer - his elbow seems chronic.. that's worrying.. can see him sacking off red ball in favour of white ball short spells
Wood - glad to see him sack off the IPL. Obviously injured
Stone - Might as well play him in rotation with Wood as the paceman
Woakes - chronic knee and his batting is now dire but we need to play him
Curran/Bairstow can do one to white ball and become mercenaries for hire.
Buttler - Ideally would fight for a top 6 spot (although, can only see him at 6 and wouldn't put him in ahead of pope now)... sadly, he's loved and will come back in for Foakes
With you on everything except for Woakes’ batting (I think it’s similar to Ashwin’s level) and Curran (I don’t think he’s actually a great white ball player, more of a promising left arm swing bowler that’s been fast tracked then raised expectations with some good innings)
-
I don't think this series should be used to judge any Eng batsmen. Except for the road in 1st test, even the main batsman Root hasn't scored in rest of the games, so can't expect the youngsters or even Bairstow to score big with all the chop and change and rotation policy going on. Also Bairstow didn't look his usual self batting which indicates the pressure he is in as the experienced guy to just come midway and score, even though he isn't given the full 4 games to boost his confidence even after a decent SL series.
Eng didnt field their best team in all 4 games and 3rd and 4th test selection got horribly wrong/reversed, so shouldn't feel too bad that they lost. Very likely the next set of new batsmen would fail in these conditions as well unless some really special talent comes through. Eng should just learn and move on, and use the other series at home or elsewhere to decide on who stays or goes.
-
Root is not the right captain the ENG Test team needs right now. It is that simple. He has had enough time to mould a competitive Test team and he hasn't done that.
Time for a Graeme Smith style change - a young captain who will build a Test team for next 4-5 years that will outlast him.
-
For me the more important tests are this summer at home. NZ and India both have genuinely excellent seam attacks and our batting unit will be tested. If you want to do anything as a test team you must win at home and these are going to be very tough matches heading into an away ashes!
-
Foakes has to keep, always
Bess is rubbish let's be honest, would have been good time to throw Virdi in and see if he can at least land the ball
Indians play to their strength and we simply had no answer or idea to counter.
The point about Leach was a good one, bowled well but hasn't had the runs on the board to really attack with the field set
Broad was a real waste of time
-
If we are looking ahead to the summer and the next 12 months we won't need to consider a second spinner for a while, even in Australia it's goi to be pace dominated. Bess is going to need some work to do but he may not have any immediate chances anyway. We just about play a spinner in our summer conditions.
If Mo Ali knocks tests on the head which I think he will do, that's leaves Leach-who is our best anyway.
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Curran
Archer (if he doesn't Jack it in) should see us thru the summer
It's the opening position, Sibley I think has to be given lots of time,he has the mentality to open.
Burns I'm not sure about. He's done ok.....
Crawley
Pope
Lawrence I would stick with, Stokes and Root will always be our best. Butler and Foakes can play in the same side I think.
Bairstow, that's it just White ball.
These young batters will get better, Lawrence has impressed and Crawley again, on potential, could be permanent.
Not all doom and gloo from where I'm sitting.
-
One positive being missed - Olly Stone had a fantastic test match, thought he was unlucky to only play one game.
-
We scored one hundred across 8 innings, which says it all.
It was a shame that some of our batsmen didn't show much sign of progression, but Lawrence did.
Looking forward to seeing us back in familiar conditions!
-
One positive being missed - Olly Stone had a fantastic test match, thought he was unlucky to only play one game.
Yes absolutely, only one test and unlucky not to play in the 4th.
Impressive.
-
Opinions and arseholes - everyone has one, and they're usually a little bit different.
Lots wrong and a few little positives. I personally think the rotation thing was utterly shameful and de-railed / de-stabilised any progress. Ed Smith should be ashamed, and Root for going along with it.
As for the report card -
Sibley and Crawley must be persevered with - is there anyone more promising
Root must consider no3 for the good of the team moving forward
I really liked the look of Lawrence in this last teat, I think he showed more intent, innovation and positivity than most of the others
Mo should be first choice spinner for a bit longer
F*ck Buttlet, Foakes is the best keeper/batsman package
Admit it - you aren;t going to make a consistent test bowler out of Archer, the dream is over, he just can't do it. Invest in Wood and Stone and the next youngsters off the rank.
Don't react to losing to Indian in India and the likes of Rohit, Pant, Ashwin and Axar - many teams would do the same - don;t cull the youngsters, learn from the experience and move on.
Images a young team moving forward, consisting of -
Sibley
Hameed
Crawley
Root
Lawrence
Stokes
Foakes
Moeen
Curran
Stone
Mahmood
-
The same Saqib Mahmood who has a higher FC average, strike rate and economy than Archer and who has never taken a first class five wickets haul at the age of 24?
-
I don't think a single forumite had Dan Lawrence in for this last Test. People should have a hard think about just how fickle they are.
I was going to ask where Archer was disappearing to?
-
And heaven help us if Moeen Ali is not only the best spinner we have now (he isn't)!, but the best we can expect in the near future. :(
-
And heaven help us if Moeen Ali is not only the best spinner we have now, but the best we can expect in the near future. :(
Leach is clearly a superior spinner and looked back to his best this series after a pretty tough time. Would have him pencilled in for every Test going forward.
-
Leach is clearly a superior spinner and looked back to his best this series after a pretty tough time. Would have him pencilled in for every Test going forward.
Me too.
-
The same Saqib Mahmood who has a higher FC average, strike rate and economy than Archer and who has never taken a first class five wickets haul at the age of 24?
Figures early on aren't always an indicator of future test greatness - Trescothick, Flintoff and Vaughan are testament to that.
-
I was going to ask where Archer was disappearing to?
It's beginning to look like he is another Wood 'the early years'
-
Figures early on aren't always an indicator of future test greatness - Trescothick, Flintoff and Vaughan are testament to that.
Nevertheless, I'm predicting Saqib Mahmood won't be a Test great.
-
The only problem Leach had was lack of games, he's def our best bet. Second spinner is a problem but not one I can see causing an issue for ages, we won't play 2 in our summer and at the end of the year maybe Sydney we would need 2 but nothing else comes to mind.
Unless England see better value in making Mo Ali fill that role and not Leach, I expect Ali to just play one day cricket.
To be honest, he's batted everywhere in the order, scored some very very good runs from number 8 but has always been a difficult selection. He's said himself he is a batsman who bowls.
-
Leach is clearly a superior spinner and looked back to his best this series after a pretty tough time. Would have him pencilled in for every Test going forward.
Whilst I would like to agree (as a fellow lefty myself), I do slightly worry about their grace under pressure (both of them)
-
It's beginning to look like he is another Wood 'the early years'
Is it? We're writing him off?
-
Nevertheless, I'm predicting Saqib Mahmood won't be a Test great.
We are going to need Wood fit for as many games as he can I reckon, Stone shows promise, and yes it's just promise at the moment.
Action looks strong, he's got pace and in the one game he played was pretty accurate.
-
Nevertheless, I'm predicting Saqib Mahmood won't be a Test great.
And I'm predicting neither will Archer - flash in the pan.
-
That thing I was saying about being fickle...
-
Goodnight.
-
Goodnight - and I don't feel fickle, always had my doubts - enjoy your nap.
-
Figures early on aren't always an indicator of future test greatness - Trescothick, Flintoff and Vaughan are testament to that.
That's not wrong, just wouldn't have him down as next cab off the rank if Archer doesn't make it in Tests, which IMO he will.
Fast bowling prospects wise I'd probably be looking at Stone or Jamie Overton before Mahmood in red ball cricket. Even Craig Overton sounds like he's added a bit of pace and there's no way he's not generating serious bounce with his height.
-
If Archer needs elbow surgery I think he’ll dump red ball cricket. Prior to becoming an England regular, when fit I’ll add, he was reported earning $3m per year from his T20 adventures.
Olly Stone looks the real real hopefully he can stay fit.
Mark Wood is average. If we rely on him in the Ashes we are backing the wrong horse.
-
Archer's heart is in white ball, he appears to have a chronic elbow issue. Can see him fading off into the T20 sunset for the monies. Might as well move on now and get Stone/Wood combo going strong than persist with someone who is so obviously going to chase the IPL ££
Silverwood's comments are totally 100% expected and anyone thinking that white ball isn't the priority for the ECB is plain wrong. However, I do hope he is fired (not likely at all) or feels such guilt, that he resigns.
Even seeing talk of pope or stokes at 3... Jesus.. do we learn nothing about specialists in specialist positions! .. Neither Pope or Stokes are good enough for top order batting! leave them at 5/6 to score runs and find .. you know... an actual top order batsmen.
-
If Archer needs elbow surgery I think he’ll dump red ball cricket. Prior to becoming an England regular, when fit I’ll add, he was reported earning $3m per year from his T20 adventures.
Olly Stone looks the real real hopefully he can stay fit.
Mark Wood is average. If we rely on him in the Ashes we are backing the wrong horse.
This regards Archer. The only worry I have with him is fitness. I really think the England management are hiding a bigger issue. And he is definitely needed for the T20 World Cup before the Ashes, so won't have any rest there.
I think early CC will be interesting regards the top order. There are 8/9 games for someone to put their hat in the ring. Or in a negative light the current top order to get nothing on early green seaming tracks and the media to start blowing up!
Leach is our best spinner and Mo is at the IPL until/possibly after the 1st test of the NZ series.
Speaking of that here are some IPL dates with will definitely effect things -
Last group game 23rd May
Playoffs 25th - 28th
Final - 30th
The 1st NZ test starts on 2nd June, so that would suggest that anyone playing in the IPL would be missing the 1st test.
-
Silverwood's comments are totally 100% expected and anyone thinking that white ball isn't the priority for the ECB is plain wrong. However, I do hope he is fired (not likely at all) or feels such guilt, that he resigns.
Why do you hope he loses his job? He's doing a good job, much better than bayliss ever did with the test team and we are changing and trying to play proper test match cricket now, which will only benefit us?
You confuse me!
-
Why do you hope he loses his job? He's doing a good job, much better than bayliss ever did with the test team and we are changing and trying to play proper test match cricket now, which will only benefit us?
You confuse me!
oh Bayliss really was worse still tbf.
Umm, he's rotating players to 'rest' them but then putting them into the white ball legs and iPL.. why not rest them from the teams that we have many many more options for? makes little to no sense
I do hope they stick with
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
as the top 7. just let them develop. Only position under review is Burns but even then.. literally no one else sticking their hands up currently. Review in 12 months if he still avg's less than 40
-
Buttler's record at 6 is really very good though so I can see the argument that Pope would benefit from some time back in county cricket to get back to his best after injury.
-
Buttler's record at 6 is really very good though so I can see the argument that Pope would benefit from some time back in county cricket to get back to his best after injury.
fair, wouldn't argue overly. Just like the idea of saying to pope concentrate on County red ball and test match batting and let him develop. Remove the pressure from him. Buttler is what, 29 already?.. avg 35 ish.. maybe just use him as the next rotation batsmen if someone get's injured ? that way, he can focus on white ball which is, lets face.. where he's devastating for England
-
Yeah, no question Buttler is most useful in white ball. Buttler's 30 which isn't exactly ancient - same age as Root. Would still back him to have another 5 years as a top international cricketer barring injury.
That said, I'd love to see Foakes given a permanent Test job as keeper and batting 7. Suspect it would do wonders for Leach as well having a genuine world class keeper to work with.
-
Its not easy managing teams in these times and management/coach need to be cut some slack with all these Bio-bubbles structures and players struggling with it.
Having said that, representing one's country in international competitions should be a matter of pride and always have the highest priority for an individual, and if that means staying in a Bubble away from the family for an extended time so be it. Players need to 'man up'. I know this wont be a popular opinion but I do feel strongly about it. You go on tour, you stay on tour till required.
-
Its not easy managing teams in these times and management/coach need to be cut some slack with all these Bio-bubbles structures and players struggling with it.
Having said that, representing one's country in international competitions should be a matter of pride and always have the highest priority for an individual, and if that means staying in a Bubble away from the family for an extended time so be it. Players need to 'man up'. I know this wont be a popular opinion but I do feel strongly about it. You go on tour, you stay on tour till required.
And that kind of attitude is exactly why top players like Trescothick and Trott developed mental health problems while playing for England.
Ultimately, cricket is a game we are fans of, not a life and death issue. It's also these players' job.
If my work told me I had to spend months at a time away from my family when somebody else was available to split that time with me, I know exactly where I'd be telling them to go.
-
It’s their job. If they are selected they should have to decide whether they are in or out. No half measures. If they don’t think they can handle bubble life, then decline. If they think they’re going to need a break then decline. The rotation policy is disruptive to the team, and needs to be re-evaluated.
I’m not saying that those who say no should get a black mark against their name for future tours - they should be free to opt in and out of tours as they see fit for their personal well-being and family. However, if they say no to one tour and them yes to the next tour, then they need to be 100% sure they are capable of seeing it through to the end.
-
oh Bayliss really was worse still tbf.
Umm, he's rotating players to 'rest' them but then putting them into the white ball legs and iPL.. why not rest them from the teams that we have many many more options for? makes little to no sense
I do hope they stick with
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
as the top 7. just let them develop. Only position under review is Burns but even then.. literally no one else sticking their hands up currently. Review in 12 months if he still avg's less than 40
Probably worth saying a good average opening would be 35. There's more outliers north of 40 than good openers who are mainly around 35
-
It’s their job. If they are selected they should have to decide whether they are in or out. No half measures. If they don’t think they can handle bubble life, then decline. If they think they’re going to need a break then decline. The rotation policy is disruptive to the team, and needs to be re-evaluated.
I’m not saying that those who say no should get a black mark against their name for future tours - they should be free to opt in and out of tours as they see fit for their personal well-being and family. However, if they say no to one tour and them yes to the next tour, then they need to be 100% sure they are capable of seeing it through to the end.
This is how I see it as well.
I do think the England management realise they stuffed this up and the rotation didn't work at all, and they should have had different squads for the SL and India tours and rotated that way.
-
It’s their job. If they are selected they should have to decide whether they are in or out. No half measures. If they don’t think they can handle bubble life, then decline. If they think they’re going to need a break then decline. The rotation policy is disruptive to the team, and needs to be re-evaluated.
I’m not saying that those who say no should get a black mark against their name for future tours - they should be free to opt in and out of tours as they see fit for their personal well-being and family. However, if they say no to one tour and them yes to the next tour, then they need to be 100% sure they are capable of seeing it through to the end.
Highly recommend you read this article before getting all high and mighty about what players should or shouldn't be able to deal with in the bubble/on tour at the moment.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/12/battles-with-the-bubble-make-england-test-heroics-even-more-remarkable-cricket (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/12/battles-with-the-bubble-make-england-test-heroics-even-more-remarkable-cricket)
-
And that kind of attitude is exactly why top players like Trescothick and Trott developed mental health problems while playing for England.
Ultimately, cricket is a game we are fans of, not a life and death issue. It's also these players' job.
If my work told me I had to spend months at a time away from my family when somebody else was available to split that time with me, I know exactly where I'd be telling them to go.
Not if you were representing your country! Not if you were going to wear your country's colors. Its not just a job; its a privilege and a responsibility. Sadly franchise cricket has reduced it to being 'just a job' with no real loyalty. Its like choosing a job where the job description stated 'will only more than 50% travel' and saying I am not comfortable with all the travel involved.
-
And that kind of attitude is exactly why top players like Trescothick and Trott developed mental health problems while playing for England.
Ultimately, cricket is a game we are fans of, not a life and death issue. It's also these players' job.
If my work told me I had to spend months at a time away from my family when somebody else was available to split that time with me, I know exactly where I'd be telling them to go.
I agree. You can't and shouldn't force players to be on tour or stay. However.... they are paid very well to be available all the time (excluding injury).. If you can't/won't fulfil that then you should be paid less. Defiantly shouldn't force people to stay if they mentally can't, that is just wrong bUT.. the pay should reflect that the person is unavailable.
Sadly, when they then rock up for white ball or for the IPL it kinda destroys the mental health argument as you know they are only doing that for the money
-
Without rotation players like Buttler/Moeen/YJB/Woakes etc would have gone out to Sri Lanka in the first week of January and stayed stuck staring at hotel walls without seeing their family or friends or doing anything except training/playing until early May. Sounds like a surefire recipe for a breakdown, and you can guarantee anyone put through it would be playing shocking cricket by the end of it. That said, trying to rotate players in and out of the squad/team midway through a series was a disaster, not helped by some of the lousy selection through this series.
On the IPL - they're gonna play it, fine. But if England players get rested from international games or even miss international games for the IPL, what is the point in central contracts?
-
Not if you were representing your country! Not if you were going to wear your country's colors. Its not just a job; its a privilege and a responsibility. Sadly franchise cricket has reduced it to being 'just a job' with no real loyalty. Its like choosing a job where the job description stated 'will only more than 50% travel' and saying I am not comfortable with all the travel involved.
Two points.
1 - "Loyalty" is a very noble sentiment but what loyalty does the ECB show to longstanding players who lose their central contract? Did they turn to Moeen and say "well Mo, you've put in a shift so we'll still pay you part of your Test contract"? No, because in elite sport loyalty only goes so far and only seems to be expected, by fans, to run in one direction. The idea that players shouldn't prioritise their own financial future and wellbeing is ridiculous and isn't asked of people in any other type of job in society.
2 - In normal times your argument about "choosing a job" might hold up but nobody signed up with full knowledge of what Covid would entail. Regardless of how well paid the job might be, how much of a privilege it is, etc... it cannot be right to expect people to put their mental health and family life at risk for a game.
-
Two points.
1 - "Loyalty" is a very noble sentiment but what loyalty does the ECB show to longstanding players who lose their central contract? Did they turn to Moeen and say "well Mo, you've put in a shift so we'll still pay you part of your Test contract"? No, because in elite sport loyalty only goes so far and only seems to be expected, by fans, to run in one direction. The idea that players shouldn't prioritise their own financial future and wellbeing is ridiculous and isn't asked of people in any other type of job in society.
2 - In normal times your argument about "choosing a job" might hold up but nobody signed up with full knowledge of what Covid would entail. Regardless of how well paid the job might be, how much of a privilege it is, etc... it cannot be right to expect people to put their mental health and family life at risk for a game.
Family.... Health (mental & physical)..... Cricket..... in that order, it is that simple! No matter what standard you play, whether you are a Clubbie or a Pro!
-
For the players that play all 3 formats I cannot see how they could get thru in bubble life without having a break or rotation. It's just not practically possible.
We've already seen a few players request to leave the bubble environment and Eoin Morgan said way back last year it was unsustainable.
Having said that, clearly the upshot of rotation for the India and Sri Lankan tours has ended up with the 3 format players missing some test matches but everyone is available for the one day stuff....
That doesn't quite fit but it's clear where the priorities are currently with the T20 WC being played in India shortly.
As for Moeen, he had a break from the test team at a time he was not playing very well and short on confidence as he said himself...very shortly after that the test contracts were announced and Mo was dropped.
Fair enough you might say but this can be viewed two ways if Moeen was to be part of the tests going forward(after the break).
When asked to stay on and forego his rotation and not having a test contract he said No thanks and that's totally understandable-he spent Sri Lanka in isolation and then played one test.
As @edge mentions thou if I understand his point correctly, if a player has a one day contract and choose to miss and England game for the IPL or the same with a test player it then becomes a more questionable decision...
As far as I have read,England are handling this situation as much in the players gain as is possible, and they have confirmed that just yesterday I think.
-
Not if you were representing your country! Not if you were going to wear your country's colors. Its not just a job; its a privilege and a responsibility. Sadly franchise cricket has reduced it to being 'just a job' with no real loyalty. Its like choosing a job where the job description stated 'will only more than 50% travel' and saying I am not comfortable with all the travel involved.
I'm not sure the patriotic world you describe really exists in the pandemic. It is of course an honour to play for your country, but they are not soldiers. They are young men being paid to hit a leather ball with a stick of wood while a pandemic rages around the world. I think we're lucky to have had any cricket at all! I would be mentally shot after a very short period in the bubble, I have no doubt. You cannot penalize players for their mental health.
We're also building up to the T20 World Cup, so they may be more lenient on the IPL this year.
-
Without rotation players like Buttler/Moeen/YJB/Woakes etc would have gone out to Sri Lanka in the first week of January and stayed stuck staring at hotel walls without seeing their family or friends or doing anything except training/playing until early May. Sounds like a surefire recipe for a breakdown, and you can guarantee anyone put through it would be playing shocking cricket by the end of it. That said, trying to rotate players in and out of the squad/team midway through a series was a disaster, not helped by some of the lousy selection through this series.
On the IPL - they're gonna play it, fine. But if England players get rested from international games or even miss international games for the IPL, what is the point in central contracts?
Well, out of them only Woakes was really a test player. The rest could and probably should have just been kept for white ball. Buttler is replaced by Foakes for tests, with Moeen and YJB dropped and easily replaced (Bairstow especially).
The likes of Stokes/Root who you can say should play both formats can simply rest from the white ball side. There are plenty of replacements for them in white ball.. ZERO replacements for them in red ball. IPL Wise.. quite simple.. you are paid to play tests, so you are expected to play them. The likes of Curran .. meh, let them go. No loss to the test side
-
I'm not sure the patriotic world you describe really exists in the pandemic. It is of course an honour to play for your country, but they are not soldiers. They are young men being paid to hit a leather ball with a stick of wood while a pandemic rages around the world. I think we're lucky to have had any cricket at all! I would be mentally shot after a very short period in the bubble, I have no doubt. You cannot penalize players for their mental health.
We're also building up to the T20 World Cup, so they may be more lenient on the IPL this year.
Paid way more than said soldiers btw... one is expected to have a few restrictions on their life but still get to play sport.. the other.. die
England have won a T20 so meh.. Doesn't really mean anything
-
Well, out of them only Woakes was really a test player. The rest could and probably should have just been kept for white ball. Buttler is replaced by Foakes for tests, with Moeen and YJB dropped and easily replaced (Bairstow especially).
The likes of Stokes/Root who you can say should play both formats can simply rest from the white ball side. There are plenty of replacements for them in white ball.. ZERO replacements for them in red ball. IPL Wise.. quite simple.. you are paid to play tests, so you are expected to play them. The likes of Curran .. meh, let them go. No loss to the test side
It's a tour, particularly with coronavirus restrictions a lot of players who aren't first choice test selections are going to be involved. You drop everyone who plays white ball out of test reckoning and the test reserves suddenly look pretty thin.
-
I don't know how to post the links but there are a couple of interesting articles on the Guardians webpage, one on the rotation of Curran which....well doesn't seem to have worked as intended even if he was not in the final 11. One on Bairstow and how he has been shoved into different roles with England(he doesn't get in my best 11 for tests personally).
But also mentioned in the influence of Jos Buttler to Root and the senior role he plays being missed for the most important part of the tour.
I've said many times I think Jos has improved a lot in test matches and was the vice captain up till recently. Whether he can actually fit into the same team as Foakes I guess is unlikely come the summer.
No doubt in my mind a space could be made for him as a batsman.
-
I don't know how to post the links but there are a couple of interesting articles on the Guardians webpage, one on the rotation of Curran which....well doesn't seem to have worked as intended even if he was not in the final 11. One on Bairstow and how he has been shoved into different roles with England(he doesn't get in my best 11 for tests personally).
But also mentioned in the influence of Jos Buttler to Root and the senior role he plays being missed for the most important part of the tour.
I've said many times I think Jos has improved a lot in test matches and was the vice captain up till recently. Whether he can actually fit into the same team as Foakes I guess is unlikely come the summer.
No doubt in my mind a space could be made for him as a batsman.
Interesting article, not likely to go down well with the Army of YJB haters on here, I have to say. It is interesting in light of some of the arguments it contained to see how many people trump Buttler's improvement - to a a standard below the one Bairstow was at before going back into the eye of Smith's changes - and argue it is grounds for him to be in the side. In reality, I reckon right this moment neither make the best XI for the start of the English season.
-
Army of Bairstow haters 😂 plenty don't want him in the Test team but I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting he isn't a key white ball player.
-
Army of Bairstow haters 😂 plenty don't want him in the Test team but I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting he isn't a key white ball player.
tbf, Bairstow before he decided to be a white ball player was looking better and better. Then he decided to become one the best white ball players in the game. No disgrace in that, plenty fo money to be made from being a white ball specialist. However, sadly... except for a few exceptions people just can't do both.
He is one of the best players in white ball England have, without question. Just shouldn't be anywhere near the Test squad
-
Bairstow had one brilliant year where he averaged almost 60. Other than that year he's never averaged 35 in a calendar year in Test cricket, I'm not sure that "better and better" quite rings tru.
That said, I'd rate him as one of the most complete and destructive England white ball batsmen ever, right up there with Pietersen and Buttler. Have yet to see a challenge in white ball cricket he hasn't risen to.
-
Glad this series is back on sky
No one more boring than cook and strauss
-
It's nice to have the production on show again
You look at that top order of Roy/Buttler/Bairstow/Malan/Morgan/Stokes they really should be scoring 800 every game
-
is this on the radio - ie TalkSport2?
-
Yikes. Look at how many people are in that stadium! Reminds me of a Donald Trump rally.
-
That XI is elite, sheesh
-
Someone’s had their sharpie pen out
-
This is brilliant
-
How has Rashid not bowled more in the power plays? Only 4 overs prior to today
-
Not sure if anyone has said this but... How much better have Eng looked without Tom Curran!
-
Not sure if anyone has said this but... How much better have Eng looked without Tom Curran!
Agreed. Whenever I see his name on the team sheet my heart sinks. Just like it used to with Dernbach.
-
Comfortable win
-
"We weren't aware enough of what we had to do on that kind of a pitch" - Virat 'We don't complain about pitches' Kohli, 2021 😂
-
Think it’s fair to point out whatever the pitch did or was expected to do and didn’t a groundsman has just lost a job.
-
"We weren't aware enough of what we had to do on that kind of a pitch" - Virat 'We don't complain about pitches' Kohli, 2021 😂
To be fair, saying "we didn't play right on this type of pitch" is not the same as saying "this pitch is bad" (= complain about pitch). Similar to teams admitting they didn't adapt to the conditions (which could be a valid reason) is not same as saying that conditions are bad (= complain about conditions).
-
Not sure India could have done any better even if they assessed the pitch correctly. India is heavily reliant on their strong batting. If the top order fails, a loss is almost guaranteed. Well played England!
-
Hope we can get towards 180 here.
India's fielding and over rate is pathetic
-
Looks a good score on this wicket but possible dew later on
-
We have really struggled to get to 160 odd. This is clearly a tricky wicket. India will either knock these off with ease, or struggle too. Just depends on if the dew has an effect
-
Sammmyyyyyyyyyy
-
Really looking forward to seeing Ishan Kishan bat. He was a star in the last IPL. Still don't get my Rohit not playing
-
Not sure if anyone has said this but... How much better have Eng looked without Tom Curran!
He’s back
-
Sigh
-
Why hasn’t Rashid been given a bowl
-
This is rank
-
These games are decided by the toss. Like the first game, conditions chasing are far easier with the dew
Kishan has played well though on debut
-
Yet another terrible 3rd umpire stumping decision!
That's early out on the zoomed able clear that here's nothing behind the line
-
that was out
-
Take nothing away from India here though they've chased superbly
Cant understand picking tom Curran had poor IPL before this, Ripley would have been better
Seems that winning the toss is too key in these night games
-
Pointless watching if games are decided on the flip of the coin. IPL games usually start later to avoid this
-
Kohli isn't ever gonna be given out with a decision that close in India. Tv umpire would end up shot after the game
-
I’m calling 4-1 india, whos with me?
-
I’m calling 4-1 india, whos with me?
Haha, you're the new cricket pandit 😀😀😍
-
I’m calling 4-1 india, whos with me?
T20s are more of a hit or miss, can go either way. Both teams have players who can change the game in a short period of time, so hard to predict I think.
-
Last three T20 matches to be played behind closed doors due to a spike in Covid rates in Gujarat. Who would have thought allowing 60,000+ spectators in to a ground during a global pandemic would have caused an issue? 🙄
-
Least surprising news I reckon, even with limited numbers in the stadium the fans just moved together to be closer to each other.
-
and the uk isn't far behind making such mistakes so we can hardly talk... open by June was it???
-
I don't want to turn this into a Covid thread but if everybody has had one dose of the vaccine by the end of May (which is the plan) why can't we open on the 21st June?
-
I don't want to turn this into a Covid thread but if everybody has had one dose of the vaccine by the end of May (which is the plan) why can't we open on the 21st June?
Because we will need everyone to have had a second dose.
-
The economy is opening up before the second dose.
For the limited number of fans returning to stadium due mid May it's very hard to imagine they won't be spread out and allowed to congregate in one quarter of any sports stadium.
-
The goal of lockdown is to make sure that the NHS does not get over whelmed not to make sure that Covid cases drop to zero. The vaccinations so far are having a great impact on bringing down the numbers currently in hospital and admitted to hospital. Logic would indicate that those trends will continue as more people get their first dose. If the NHS is not going to be overwhelmed then lockdown can be eased.
-
The economy is opening up before the second dose.
For the limited number of fans returning to stadium due mid May it's very hard to imagine they won't be spread out and allowed to congregate in one quarter of any sports stadium.
There definitely wont be full crowds before the 21st June and it wouldn't surprise me if capacities were limited for a period after that date as well. Hopefully we will back to full stadiums before the end of the summer and not just because I have tickets for the Headingley test in August!
-
There definitely wont be full crowds before the 21st June and it wouldn't surprise me if capacities were limited for a period after that date as well. Hopefully we will back to full stadiums before the end of the summer and not just because I have tickets for the Headingley test in August!
No there won't, it will be (common sense would tell us) one of the most restricted and monitored parts of exiting lockdown.
think as it stands now,the County grounds that hold international cricket are planning as normal.You should be fine :)
-
Shame I preferred the one sided crowd noise, to the fake ones they've used before.
-
Toss looks even more important for this pitch. Looks like it’s going to turn square
England win the toss, so easy win. Game decided on the toss
-
Toss looks even more important for this pitch. Looks like it’s going to turn square
England win the toss, so easy win. Game decided on the toss
I don’t think anyone is going to chase and it will be interesting to see how much turn there is
Back on the red soil pitches which did go quite a bit.
Somehow we must improve against spin for the WC so if it does turn fair enough
-
I don’t think anyone is going to chase and it will be interesting to see how much turn there is
Back on the red soil pitches which did go quite a bit.
Somehow we must improve against spin for the WC so if it does turn fair enough
Surprised no moeen if it’s going to turn
-
I thought Mo would be in today’s team also.
I think we are actually fielding first..
-
The team winning the toss will chase every game this series. Don't think they're too worried about the pitch breaking up second innings in a t20!
-
Congrats to England on a solid victory.
-
Oh Joffy, that was a shocker.
-
Pace from wood! Too quick for KL
-
these 60m boundaries are a bit of a joke, top edges should not be going that far over the line.
-
these 60m boundaries are a bit of a joke, top edges should not be going that far over the line.
Pretty much every ground is 60m boundaries behind the batters now a days. It means an 80m hit straight.
WI got upset at 90m boundaries at Lords the other year.
-
^ That is just a sad state of affairs. Pro athletes should clear a 90m boundary with ease.
-
Dew’s kicked in for sure. Should be a simple chase
Class knock from kohli nonetheless
-
Yeah, great knock from Kohli but you'd back England to chase this all day long, especially with a weakened India attack.
-
60-70m boundaries just take all the risk out for international players, theres no need to time it or play for a gap they can just slog.
surely the balance of bat v ball would be better if they were 85-90m , i doubt the total scores would be much different as placement and running between the wickets would be more of an importance and the better players would still score.
are the short boundaries driven by TV companies as its more 'exciting' to watch? or the actual teams who can just fill the batting line up with hitters instead of batsmen?
either way, the likes of root, kohli, williamson would still do well but there are some right postage stamp bullies out there
-
Sir Jos Buttler is ON FIRE!!!
-
Sir Jos Buttler is ON FIRE!!!
Love a bit of Universe Jos.
-
India seem to have reverted to their pre-IPL days comedy fielding. Good to see.
-
winning the toss is so important in this series they may as well not bother playing and just flip a coin 5 times
-
India seem to have reverted to their pre-IPL days comedy fielding. Good to see.
😀
-
Serious knock from Buttler.
-
Seriously, what’s the point of these T20s? You might as well go home straight after the toss has been decided. T20 cricket has a BIG problem if this run continues.
-
This might have to do with this time of year
-
Toss clearly had been important but so has the availability of Mark Wood. He was a huge loss of itself in the second game, even more so when Tom Curran was his replacement
-
Seriously, what’s the point of these T20s? You might as well go home straight after the toss has been decided. T20 cricket has a BIG problem if this run continues.
I don't think T20 has a problem, it's more these pitches and start time bringing in the dew factor. IPL start times are different and on better pitches and sides win batting 1st.
-
I don't think T20 has a problem, it's more these pitches and start time bringing in the dew factor. IPL start times are different and on better pitches and sides win batting 1st.
Yes the timing of IPL games is later and takes out the toss advantage to the degree you have here.
-
Nice to know the World Cup final might be decided on the toss of a coin as it’s being played on this ground
Win the toss win the match as far as this series goes. IPL games start an hour later I believe
-
October/November for the WC I think the dew is more at this time of year rather than year round far as I know.
-
Man of the match should go to Morgan for winning the toss. Game already decided
-
Nice little plug for ton and keeley by key and Hussain
-
Is it just mean or does Rashid look fitter compared to last year?
-
Not sure that was out...
-
Looked not out. Given out due to soft signal.
-
Be interesting to see if these new lads can establish themselves in the India side. I'd be a whole lot more worried about an India with Kishan and Yadav than without.
-
Be interesting to see if these new lads can establish themselves in the India side. I'd be a whole lot more worried about an India with Kishan and Yadav than without.
These guys are seasoned pros thanks to IPL. No fear! Credit to Mumbai Indians for giving these guys key roles and helping them develop.
-
India have done well defending this score given how easy it is to bat second on this ground
-
Neither of the Curran’s are good enough for international cricket.
-
At last a contest!
-
Neither of the Curran’s are good enough for international cricket.
Sam had a pretty good IPL last time around, don't forget how young he still is given that some of the world's best T20 players are in their mid 30s.
-
These guys are seasoned pros thanks to IPL. No fear! Credit to Mumbai Indians for giving these guys key roles and helping them develop.
India should literally just pick the Mumbai Indians team then fill the 4 overseas slot with Kohli, Pant and 2 others.
-
Sam had a pretty good IPL last time around, don't forget how young he still is given that some of the world's best T20 players are in their mid 30s.
He’s still young, but his batting has gone backwards, and he doesn’t strike me as someone who is suddenly going to add 5 mph of pace. If he wasnt a leftie seamer he’d be nowhere near the England side.
-
I can see Sam Currans value in a home Test squad. I'm just not sure what he brings to this side. If he doesn't get the new ball he will hardly bowl and there is no evidence he is yet the standard of bat required.
Honestly, Joe Root should take that spot, or Ali/Livingstone. At least they'd vary the attack.
-
I can see Sam Currans value in a home Test squad. I'm just not sure what he brings to this side. If he doesn't get the new ball he will hardly bowl and there is no evidence he is yet the standard of bat required.
Honestly, Joe Root should take that spot, or Ali/Livingstone. At least they'd vary the attack.
Curran does vary the attack with being a leftie but given Willey's experience and the fact he's got lots more experience I can see the value he would add over Curran. Curran could learn a lot about new ball bowling in white ball from understudying with Willey as the lead.
Would also give England the option to open up with Willey in the powerplay where his record is right up there, push Wood into the middle overs a bit more and reduce the pressure on Stokes' bowling.
-
I still don't understand what part of cricket Sam Curran is better than David Willey at.
-
I still don't understand what part of cricket Sam Curran is better than David Willey at.
Getting IPL contracts 😂
-
Based on the squad out here, I am struggling to see how the Currans are getting games over Ali.
-
Based on the squad out here, I am struggling to see how the Currans are getting games over Ali.
It also makes an absolute mockery of him going home for a rest from the tests before the white ball games if he doesn't play!!!!
I mean Morgan must have had an idea of the formation of his side etc....
-
Looked not out. Given out due to soft signal.
Definitely not out.
There has been a lot of criticism in the indian media about the third umpire. Artherton in the commentry also mentioned how can an onfield umpire see a boundary catch/no catch from 60 yards away and give a soft signal.
This rule needs definitely to be updated by ICC. Just refer those ones to the third umpire without third umpire.
Regarding the Malan catch, the third umpire must be blind to not see that the ball touching the ground. I mean his little fingers clearly split after the kneen hit his hand and the visual clearly shows the ball touching the ground. He must be blind not to see that. There was conclusive evidence there to overturn the onfield decision.
The adil rashid catch was a touch and go. Whether the spikes was touching the boundary board or not wasn't clearly visible. In saying that there is noway the onfield umpire sees that so how can you give the soft signal.
Personally I tought the spikes was touching the boundary board but I am okay with the inconculsive decision but the Malan catch decision was a shocker. Incompetent umpiring at its best.
-
*without soft signal
-
Getting IPL contracts 😂
IPL contract sorted for a few years. Fleming and dhoni see him part of their future
-
Curran does vary the attack with being a leftie but given Willey's experience and the fact he's got lots more experience I can see the value he would add over Curran. Curran could learn a lot about new ball bowling in white ball from understudying with Willey as the lead.
Would also give England the option to open up with Willey in the powerplay where his record is right up there, push Wood into the middle overs a bit more and reduce the pressure on Stokes' bowling.
He doesn't though - he would, if they were going to use him for two or three in the Powerplay when the ball might swing, but they don't appear to be, so its a token over to help Stokes through his allocation, which tends to go the distance. Willey would be a better batting option I suspect, but still wouldn't bring a lot with the ball because they appear wedded to Dilly, Jof and Wood being the new ball three now so for me an extra spinner who bring a lot with the bat would be the pick.
-
He doesn't though - he would, if they were going to use him for two or three in the Powerplay when the ball might swing, but they don't appear to be, so its a token over to help Stokes through his allocation, which tends to go the distance. Willey would be a better batting option I suspect, but still wouldn't bring a lot with the ball because they appear wedded to Dilly, Jof and Wood being the new ball three now so for me an extra spinner who bring a lot with the bat would be the pick.
Moeen would definitely add something useful. Not sure what the aversion is to including Willey as a new ball wicket taker, he's done it successfully before.
-
Moeen would definitely add something useful. Not sure what the aversion is to including Willey as a new ball wicket taker, he's done it successfully before.
I think they want Wood and Archer to bowl a lot at the top so he is not needed. Plus he vocalised his upset at missing out on the WC so is doubtless in Morgan bad books.
What they seem to need, assuming Jordan stays, is someone to bowl 1 to 4 overs between 7 and 17. Ideally they bat, which rules out the two best options I can think of in Stone and Mahmood. And Plunkett, who fits the bill perfectly, is about 570 years old.
-
If Morgan was that unsure about things then others would have got a go in this series, an ideal time to see how they fit in to the team, in the conditions of the World Cup against quality opposition. Yet Morgan has only made 1 change in 4 games and Tom Curran went round the park.
Topley, Ali etc.... are maybe going to play in the ODI's but that doesn't give them much hope of getting in the T20i side.
-
Thanks for coming back to India, Mo. 🙄
Can’t believe Curran has been given ANOTHER chance to unimpress.
-
England need a wicket soon, or they’ll be chasing 220+
-
This is naff
-
Braindead bowling from England. Only Rashid has provided any semblance of control.
-
What’s Curran’s job in this side?
-
Unreal catch by Jordan. He's such a great fielder. :o
-
What’s Curran’s job in this side?
Cheerleader.
-
England need a wicket soon, or they’ll be chasing 220+
220 on the card
-
If he doesn’t open the bowling I really don’t see why he’s there over say Mo. We’ve been flogged round by right handlers and he’s only bowled an over.
-
Great batting from India, aided by 20 overs of absolute filth from England. Clueless.
-
Curran has bowled 10 overs in this series, and 4 of those came in the 3rd match. He’s not adding anything to this side whatsoever.
-
Roy out 2nd ball. Awful shot. Bring back Hales!
-
England will win from here!
-
Are you trying to jinx it??!!
-
Nope, 🙂
-
Kohli is such an arrogant, obnoxious (No Swearing Please).
-
Kohli is such an arrogant, obnoxious (No Swearing Please).
Take it you’re not a fan :D. Same could probably said for stokes
-
Pathetic this
-
Take it you’re not a fan :D. Same could probably said for stokes
Big fan of his batting. Just a shame the class he shows when batting isn’t mirrored in his personality.
-
Big fan of his batting. Just a shame the class he shows when batting isn’t mirrored in his personality.
As I said same can be said for stokes and his behaviour on and off the field
-
Love kohlis aggression on field. He doesn't kick the ball throw his bat away like stoke. So there's a difference in class
-
England won more tosses and still lost this series. They faced a weakened bowling line up too.
India seem to have found some young players
-
Love kohlis aggression on field. He doesn't kick the ball throw his bat away like stoke. So there's a difference in class
Stokes isn’t captain. When you’re a captain you’re supposed to set an example. Kohli sets a bad example with his demeanour and continually getting in the face of the umpires.
-
Really don’t see the obsession with Sam Curran. Little dibbly dobber bowls the odd over here or there. His batting is nothing more than wild slogging.
Don’t see how Moeen was left on the bench all series
-
What I don't get is we have just been beaten but learned absolutely nothing really about possible players for the WC and surely missed a massive opportunity to give them a try.
In other news..... The Telegraph reporting Jofra about the pull out of the IPL to have treatment on his elbow in the hope to be fully fit for the summer etc...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/03/20/jofra-archer-likely-pull-ipl-protect-test-career/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/03/20/jofra-archer-likely-pull-ipl-protect-test-career/)
-
Really don’t see the obsession with Sam Curran. Little dibbly dobber bowls the odd over here or there. His batting is nothing more than wild slogging.
Don’t see how Moeen was left on the bench all series
How dare you!! He played well in one random series that once and has been world class ever since.. oh and a test top 6 batter in the making.. oh and a 'handy left arm option'.. oh and 'great attitude.
Yeah he's crap. Shouldn't be near the Red ball team.. ever
I didn't watch any of the 2020's btw so bashing him purely based on the fact he rarely performs well enough.
-
Both Curran’s starting the odi series and moeen gets a game. Bowling not looking great on a flat one
-
Been a decent start so far
-
Good start by wood and curran but Rohit seems to be finding his feet 😬
-
The Curran’s must have incriminating pictures of Ed Smith. No other way to explain why they continue to get selected.
-
Sam billings is a good player but I wonder if Malan as a reserve might get a go to see how he does in the 50 over format.
-
Kohli looks in the mood.
-
Oh Mo, come on now. Awful drop...
-
And another stinker in the field.
-
Runs leaking. A plunkett in the middle overs would’ve been useful
-
Least Moeen caught that
-
Imagine picking Rahul over Pant...I don’t think there have been many as overrated as Rahul
-
280-300 should be a easy chase under lights with the dew coming
-
You'd imagine the England batting lineup is strong enough to chase it, definitely.
-
Clawed this back brilliantly...
-
Clawed this back brilliantly...
Just a shame we might be two batsmen down. I can’t see Jedward saving us with the bat!
-
Tom Curran probably lucky the pitch was doing a bit earlier. Back to bowling filth
-
I dont know why but the Curran brothers always remind me of Jade Dernbach!
-
I dont know why but the Curran brothers always remind me of Jade Dernbach!
Because they all bowl a similar quota of filth?
-
Serving some half volleys here. Really is poor bowling. Not been able to land a single Yorker
-
From cricinfo - England team spokesman: "Eoin has split the webbing between his right thumb and index finger. He has had four stitches inserted by the England team doctor. He expects to be able to bat."
Ouch! How can one grip a bat properly with 4 stitches between thumb and index!
-
This bowling is utter garbage. If pace doesn’t work, Wood doesn’t have a back-up plan. Jedward are both useless. Tom Jedward should shut up and concentrate on bowling rather than trying to get involved in arguments with batters who are smashing him to all parts.
-
Clawed this back brilliantly...
This aged well :D!
Decent total but should still be gettable for the mighty English ODI side.
-
Bowling so poor they’ve got Rahul back in form. Some good batting from Krunal, changed the momentum
Only one Yorker landed at the death
Morgan will probably face a ban for the over rate even though he’s not on the field
-
This bowling is utter garbage. If pace doesn’t work, Wood doesn’t have a back-up plan. Jedward are both useless. Tom Jedward should shut up and concentrate on bowling rather than trying to get involved in arguments with batters who are smashing him to all parts.
Sam Curran was the second most economical bowler for England today, not sure it's entirely fair to say he was useless. When he gets to bowl early doors and the ball is swinging he's a handy bowler.
Tom Curran, much less convinced, particularly as he seems to be first reserve when any other bowler gets a knock. Surely there are better options playing white ball cricket in the county set ups.
-
Dinesh Karthik's a commentary natural, been great to listen to...
-
Dinesh Karthik's a commentary natural, been great to listen to...
Agree he’s a good commentator
-
White ball Bairstow is so good
-
White ball Bairstow is so good
Best argument for Bairstow not playing tests is to keep him in both white ball teams for as long as possible. The century he scored against Scotland a few years ago is still my favourite innings I've ever seen live.
-
Should get this in 45 overs
-
Kohli drops a catch and then means why the fielder didn’t run Morgan out
-
Seems like we're intent on blowing this
-
Very poor cricket from Morgan, he’s been looking to play shots throughout his innings when the run rate isn’t an issue
Played and missed plenty and was dropped. England doing their best to throw this one away
-
Balls doing a little and England have lost their heads. Odds on Moeen to nicking off?
-
All the hard work done by Roy and Bairstow undone by some calamitous batting. Where are the younger players being bought into the fold? what is the point of these tours if we aren't going to test out fringe/up and coming players?
-
All the hard work done by Roy and Bairstow undone by some calamitous batting. Where are the younger players being bought into the fold? what is the point of these tours if we aren't going to test out fringe/up and coming players?
With Root not playing you do have to think this was a great opportunity to blood Sam Hain at the top level given his absurd 50 over record,
-
not the first time we have imploded after a rapid start, i think its where we miss root the most in games like this. Morgan looked like a walking wicket from the moment he got out there and 3 is too high for stokes. would like to have seen buttler coming in a 3 instead
-
This is where the Curran brothers can show their value; their ability to bat.
-
These are some nothing deliveries they're getting out to
-
Moeen nicks off - who would’ve thought. Decent nut that
-
That’s the game. Brain dead cricket from England after that start.
-
England are going backwards under Silverwood.
-
Bhuvi is so amazing doing what he does! If he would have been born in the UK, he would have bagged loads of wickets. He is so brilliant at moving the ball just enough!
-
Morgan confirming we are not deviating from the plan of the WC over here and will continue the same style.
That's fine.....but that makes Joe Root even more important to this team....if that's even possible.
In the absence of Root I can't help thinking Malan is at least worth a game to see how he gets on.decent experience and does take time to play himself in.
-
Morgan is too stubborn for his own good.
-
Textbook ODI opening from Roy and Bairstow, fantastic to watch. What a terrible performance from such a terrific start.
-
India has a very strong middle-order now and their top-order was already exceptional.
England's middle-order is just not working.
Morgan has every right to be stubborn and make mistakes. He is in a "build" phase for the T-20 WC. I'd give him time.
-
At 135/0 I thought it was home and hosed...switch back on a bit later and it wasn’t the case. Definitely a bad loss but not all that important in the immediate future
-
India has a very strong middle-order now and their top-order was already exceptional.
England's middle-order is just not working.
Morgan has every right to be stubborn and make mistakes. He is in a "build" phase for the T-20 WC. I'd give him time.
I’d like him to start scoring runs again, and also to welcome Hales back in to the fold. He’s served his punishment, and now is the time to reintegrate him in to both the T20 and ODI sides. He’s one of our best white ball players, and needs to be in the side of we’re going to challenge for the WC. Morgan needs to get over it and do what’s best for the team. It was for the best that he was kicked out a couple of years ago, and now it’s for the best that he comes back. The much vaunted deep batting line-up isn’t actually that deep.
I’m all for it being a “build” phase, but it doesn’t take a genius to see that the Jedwards are passengers in this side. It’s worrying that we have been walloped by India over the last couple of weeks, and they aren’t even playing their two best white ball bowlers in Bumrah and Jadeja. We’re going to arrive at the WC with zero idea who should be in our strongest XI.
-
Without joe root, the middle order looks spineless.
Like they say, one dayers are won in the middle overs and england's problem is they have all these middle order batsmen who only want to deal in 4's and 6's by playing shot in the air and dont want to nudge the singles.
in the powerplay, they are brilliant but they also want to bat with the same gear in the middle overs.
too often times we have seen the likes of roy and bairstow look so good in the powerplay, and not convert their start into big scores as they keep on playing shots in the air.
stokes just isn't a no. 3 batsmen. he needs to go down to 5 or 6 which suits his aggressive batting style. someone like malan can be a good replacement at no. 3 if root is not available.
someone was saying out here, silverwood taking the team backwards and i totally agree with him. all this BS of rotation policy is still going on. You have the likes of stokes, who plays all tests, t20s and and one dayers and don't need a rest but u have joe root your no. 1 batsman in onedayers who needs to be rested. crazy BS rest policy.
-
Glaring hole in the side was no Root. He brings stability to the team, while others have the freedom to go all out. They should have picked someone to do that role and Malan is the obvious choice for me.
Billings is a good player, but rarely if ever wins a game single handed. He's not even the best batsman in the Kent team.
-
Didn’t Stokes miss the entire SL tour?
-
Didn’t Stokes miss the entire SL tour?
If you know the answer why are you asking?
-
Didn’t Stokes miss the entire SL tour?
Go and check the touring players if you want the answer
-
I’d like him to start scoring runs again, and also to welcome Hales back in to the fold. He’s served his punishment, and now is the time to reintegrate him in to both the T20 and ODI sides. He’s one of our best white ball players, and needs to be in the side of we’re going to challenge for the WC. Morgan needs to get over it and do what’s best for the team. It was for the best that he was kicked out a couple of years ago, and now it’s for the best that he comes back. The much vaunted deep batting line-up isn’t actually that deep.
Am I right in thinking that Morgan is main reason why he's not in the England set up, given his previous comments to the press?
If/When Morgan retires does he come back in?
-
Am I right in thinking that Morgan is main reason why he's not in the England set up, given his previous comments to the press?
If/When Morgan retires does he come back in?
There's another thread I started about Hales, lots of different views on there. The long and short of it is Ashley Giles has now held out an olive branch to Hales to get him in and train with the team.
Morgan so far just says there's not much space for him.Personally I think Hales is an idiot, however, the big call is to forgive and forget and at least try to integrate him.
I'm not blaming England entirely for the KP situation but we must learn things from that I reckon. It's interesting now with hindsight Strauss and some other wish that situation could of been 'handled better'.
If Hales had a black mark against him, 2 years don the line it's time to clear it off
-
Glaring hole in the side was no Root. He brings stability to the team, while others have the freedom to go all out. They should have picked someone to do that role and Malan is the obvious choice for me.
Billings is a good player, but rarely if ever wins a game single handed. He's not even the best batsman in the Kent team.
Billings is a top top player, and should have played a lot more for England. My view is that he has been hamstrung by his versatility in international cricket. No-one has worked out where his best position is, and he’s been shunted everywhere in the order as a result. I’m not sure how you can cement a place by giving consistent performances when you’re treated in such an inconsistent manner.
-
I’d like him to start scoring runs again, and also to welcome Hales back in to the fold. He’s served his punishment, and now is the time to reintegrate him in to both the T20 and ODI sides. He’s one of our best white ball players, and needs to be in the side of we’re going to challenge for the WC.
I am a firm believer in second chances. Cricket fans would love to see Hales at the center stage.
Morgan is an experienced campaigner and a shrewd captain. He knows which side is the favorite (India) to win the WC. Why would he show his hand now. I think he is using this tour to find out all the weaknesses against the best side and fill the gaps after the tour. Here is my prediction (#InternalTraining, #Prediction):
1. Hales will play for England in the WC-T20.
2. Morgan will time Hales entry in the squad to boost team's morale when team needs it -- last leg of the wc prep; and, keep Hales hungry to prove himself.
At this level, all these guys can play. It's a matter of who handles pressure, mind games better. Why would Kohli sledge Butler? Kohli knows Butler is dangerous; he wants to live inside Butler's head rent free. It'd make sense if Morgan would want to psyche out the competition by some late inclusions in the squad.
Lead up to the WC will be very interesting. :D
-
Billings is a top top player, and should have played a lot more for England. My view is that he has been hamstrung by his versatility in international cricket. No-one has worked out where his best position is, and he’s been shunted everywhere in the order as a result. I’m not sure how you can cement a place by giving consistent performances when you’re treated in such an inconsistent manner.
He was our standout performer last summer in 50 over cricket. Annoyed me at times the comms suggesting he was still just a stop gap, I think he’s earned his spot in the side and should be displaced as oppose to dropped simply to make room for someone else.
-
He was our standout performer last summer in 50 over cricket. Annoyed me at times the comms suggesting he was still just a stop gap, I think he’s earned his spot in the side and should be displaced as oppose to dropped simply to make room for someone else.
Well he isn't going to replace Morgan as he's not captain, Stokes as he isn't an all-rounder or Root as he isn't better than Root. Realistically that means Billings either replaces Buttler (unlikely) or slots in at 3/4 I reckon. Personally I can't see him making that role his own in the immediate future.
For me, England should line up in 50 over cricket something like this -
Bairstow
Roy
Hales
Root (Hain introduced in lower stakes games ideally)
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Moeen/S Curran/AN Bowling Allrounder
Archer
Rashid
Billings is probably a capable option at 5/6/7 in that side to allow for rotation, etc. I don't see how he displaces anyone though, until a few of the current generation move on.
-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html)
Being Best batter in the world Kohli, would like to see you best behaved cricketer as well.
-
^ He desperately wants to win a trophy before his form starts declining.
-
Read this article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html)
Dont agree with the logic that all tests will be over in 2 days if umpires call is removed. So then he is basically saying some batsmen should get lucky from umpires call so that tests can go longer than 2 days while others can go under the bus being given out when it just clips the stumps. If he is so concerned about that, maybe rule should be - if clipping more than half - then out, less than half - then not out, and still remove umpires call. That way there is consistency for every batsman and also removes fear of batsmen getting out due to clipping stumps/tests getting over in 2 days.
-
Iyer out of the series with shoulder dislocation.
Morgan, Billings and Rohit doubts for Friday with their respective issues.
-
Read this article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-9395013/David-Lloyd-Careful-Virat-Kohli-words-consequences.html)
Dont agree with the logic that all tests will be over in 2 days if umpires call is removed. So then he is basically saying some batsmen should get lucky from umpires call so that tests can go longer than 2 days while others can go under the bus being given out when it just clips the stumps. If he is so concerned about that, maybe rule should be - if clipping more than half - then out, less than half - then not out, and still remove umpires call. That way there is consistency for every batsman and also removes fear of batsmen getting out due to clipping stumps/tests getting over in 2 days.
or.. remove it all together... if it's hitting the stumps at all.. it's out. It's the same for both sides so it's fair. Batters are just not good enough defensively now.. nothing To do with DRS or the pitches really.. Batters just aren't prepared to bat long unless it's biffing it to all parts.
All that would happen is batters wouldn't wander across their stumps as much.. meaning less leg side hitting. Players would have to be circumspect on the off side for fear of nicking off more etc etc.. just means less domination from power hitting really
-
Again... The whole poi t of DRS and umpires call has been missed..
You CANNOT remove umpires call.. that is the tolerance in the tracking software... It's obvious that this key point is being missed and it's actually quite alarming how many on the game don't get this
-
Again... The whole poi t of DRS and umpires call has been missed..
You CANNOT remove umpires call.. that is the tolerance in the tracking software... It's obvious that this key point is being missed and it's actually quite alarming how many on the game don't get this
Oh no.. people get it... I'm just on the side of removing the issue altogether and having it as either 'out' or 'not out'.. Sure, the tracking isn't perfect but neither is the umpire so the 'random' factor is there anyway either way. Might as well just go with technology which in theory SHOULD improve over time...
It's not rocket science so don't assume people are stupid. It's more a case of what are we losing by removing 'umpires call'.. nothing
-
Yeah, of course you can remove umpire's call if you want. It's nothing to do with the tracking, it's just there to back the umpires up. At the very least it should be binned up to and including impact.
-
Yeah, of course you can remove umpire's call if you want. It's nothing to do with the tracking, it's just there to back the umpires up. At the very least it should be binned up to and including impact.
oh there is a margin of error int he tracking which means it's not 100%. Meaning that an 'umpires call' when it's 'just clipping' has defaulted to .. well.. whatever the umpire says.
However.. if you simply remove the umpire and just accept the system then you have the same margin of error as you get with an umpire anyway so meh.. better to go with technology as it should in theory anyway.. keep improving. Plus, removes the arguments caused by poor umpiring and removes home umpire bias too and leaves them free to deal with no balls, running on the wicket, slow over rates and the rest of the 'gamesmanship' crap that now hampers cricket.
-
You CANNOT remove umpires call.. that is the tolerance in the tracking software... It's obvious that this key point is being missed and it's actually quite alarming how many on the game don't get this
I have heard that before, but have never seen any published info on how far out the tracking can be. If it's exactly half a ball width, that sounds like a strange co-incidence!
Interesting that in tennis they use what I would guess to be a very similar system, but have no trouble over-ruling an umpires call even if tracking shows the ball missing the line by a millimetre.
Tennis players and fans accept the system as being 100% accurate, while cricketers assume it's not accurate by half a ball width.
-
If it was about accuracy then there wouldn't be umpire's call for where the ball pitched or hit the pad - the margin of error for the umpires there is huge. The prediction of where it hits the stumps is a little different, but if that's not trusted as accurate enough then why use it at all?
I have heard that before, but have never seen any published info on how far out the tracking can be. If it's exactly half a ball width, that sounds like a strange co-incidence!
Interesting that in tennis they use what I would guess to be a very similar system, but have no trouble over-ruling an umpires call even if tracking shows the ball missing the line by a millimetre.
Tennis players and fans accept the system as being 100% accurate, while cricketers assume it's not accurate by half a ball width.
Hawkeye advertise tracking as accurate to within 3.6mm, which as you say is good enough for tennis and should be for cricket really!
-
I have heard that before, but have never seen any published info on how far out the tracking can be. If it's exactly half a ball width, that sounds like a strange co-incidence!
Interesting that in tennis they use what I would guess to be a very similar system, but have no trouble over-ruling an umpires call even if tracking shows the ball missing the line by a millimetre.
Tennis players and fans accept the system as being 100% accurate, while cricketers assume it's not accurate by half a ball width.
I'd suggest that Tennis isn't tracking.. it's repeating a known ball point. Cricket is literally 'guessing' (albeit, educated guessing) the PREDICTED trajectory .. hence the margin for error
-
If it was about accuracy then there wouldn't be umpire's call for where the ball pitched or hit the pad - the margin of error for the umpires there is huge. The prediction of where it hits the stumps is a little different, but if that's not trusted as accurate enough then why use it at all?
Hawkeye advertise tracking as accurate to within 3.6mm, which as you say is good enough for tennis and should be for cricket really!
Oh I'd just use it full stop and do away with Umpires call totally.. Hell, I'd have Hawk Eye reviewing every single ball (if they could speed it up to almost live).. then anything hitting the pads etc is automatically reviewed.. that way, you're always getting the right result to every ball which is way better than relying on appealing or umpires decisions
-
Umpires call is to also help maintain the respect of the standing umpires, and the decisions they have made. If you do away with umpires call you may as well put a robot at each end.
-
Umpires call is to also help maintain the respect of the standing umpires, and the decisions they have made. If you do away with umpires call you may as well put a robot at each end.
To play devils advocate.. Why would replacing an umpire with a 'robot' be a bad thing? What does an umpire bring to the party that technology or off field official (with access to tv/stump mic's etc) couldn't do.. also, removing all the 'talking points' would mean laws are applied equally and consistently which is surely the aim for all sport!
Let's be honest.. there is no 'respect' to umpires in the pro or amateur game.. Just look at the time wasting antics, slow over rates, over appealing etc etc. Long gone are the days at all levels of 'respect'.
-
Umpires call is to also help maintain the respect of the standing umpires, and the decisions they have made. If you do away with umpires call you may as well put a robot at each end.
I'd personally be sad as I enjoy a good chat when fielding at square leg
-
I'd personally be sad as I enjoy a good chat when fielding at square leg
Do you often umpire international cricket?
-
No DRS should be an option as well.
-
No DRS should be an option as well.
You want to go back to this sort of thing? https://youtu.be/tV07Or1Sark
:o
-
You want to go back to this sort of thing? https://youtu.be/tV07Or1Sark
:o
I feel that the controversy is very part of sport, everyone is prone to make blunders.
You know all well.
I would have rather have controversial decision made by an umpire than a DRS.
-
I feel that the controversy is very part of sport, everyone is prone to make blunders.
You know all well.
I would have rather have controversial decision made by an umpire than a DRS.
Respectfully disagree. Would rather have technology questioned than the integrity and ability of an actual human being.
-
I have heard that before, but have never seen any published info on how far out the tracking can be. If it's exactly half a ball width, that sounds like a strange co-incidence!
Interesting that in tennis they use what I would guess to be a very similar system, but have no trouble over-ruling an umpires call even if tracking shows the ball missing the line by a millimetre.
Tennis players and fans accept the system as being 100% accurate, while cricketers assume it's not accurate by half a ball width.
It's not the tracking that's the issue it's the predictor
And it's so many mm which equates to roughly half a ball.. it's mandated by Hawkeye themselves not the ICC or anyone in cricket
-
Respectfully disagree. Would rather have technology questioned than the integrity and ability of an actual human being.
I understand where you're coming from, I respect your opinion.
-
I have heard that before, but have never seen any published info on how far out the tracking can be. If it's exactly half a ball width, that sounds like a strange co-incidence!
Interesting that in tennis they use what I would guess to be a very similar system, but have no trouble over-ruling an umpires call even if tracking shows the ball missing the line by a millimetre.
Tennis players and fans accept the system as being 100% accurate, while cricketers assume it's not accurate by half a ball width.
Do they really accept that it is 100% accurate? Surely nobody would believe that any tracking technology is 100% accurate? The tolerance and expected margin of variation is certainly open to debate but I'm pretty sure the developers of the technology would not claim 100% accuracy.
-
But nothing is 100%. When an umpire makes a judgement he is also taking a call with margin for error. I think they should really do away with the umpire's call bit; or atleast get away with the 50% ball hitting BS. Reduce that margin to maybe 5% i.e. if only 5% of the ball seems to be hitting the stumps then its umpire's call; else it is out. Some of the decisions that are adjudged as umpire's call and ridiculous to say the least.
-
If anyone really wants to do some reading on the matter... https://resources.platform.pulselive.com/test/HawkEye/document/2015/08/27/76ee8967-f365-4b0a-9d29-13b4dab6232c/CricInfo_Hawkins_Responds.pdf
It’s a little out of date but answers some key questions.
No the system isn’t perfect. But personally it’s a far better than human umpires being left unchecked.
I would keep umpires call in LBW decisions. The rational for having DRS is to remove the howler... if the standing umpire makes a call and giving the current rules it comes back as “umpires call” regardless of decision. It would be a decision in which they could argue as to why that decision is made. If it’s 3 reds and they have given it not out. Obviously it’s a shocker over turn the decision.
More broadly at times the DRS system is only as good as the 3rd umpire. Other times it’s let down by poor camera work. And sometimes it’s just pure luck that the vital piece of information happens to be between frames.
-
Another point to remember, the track shown on screen is just the most likely predicted trajectory. The margin for error isn’t shown on screen. It may help the understanding of umpires call if it was shown.
-
If anyone really wants to do some reading on the matter... https://resources.platform.pulselive.com/test/HawkEye/document/2015/08/27/76ee8967-f365-4b0a-9d29-13b4dab6232c/CricInfo_Hawkins_Responds.pdf
Interesting article - thanks!
-
So to quote it's inventor Paul Hawkins in the above 2015 article - "2.2 mm is our tennis error. We have stated 5mm accuracy, and 10mm is some scenarios" (regarding cricket )
Those 'secenarios' I gather to mean where the ball has bounced less than 40 cm before impact. Anything above that and hawkeye has enough frames to accurately establish the current path, and thus the predicted path. So worst case scenario is still more than 3 X half a ball width.
Do they really accept that it is 100% accurate? Surely nobody would believe that any tracking technology is 100% accurate? The tolerance and expected margin of variation is certainly open to debate but I'm pretty sure the developers of the technology would not claim 100% accuracy.
Agreed, I didn't mean that Hawkeye is 100% accurate for tennis, the point I was trying to make is that the tennis community seem to accept hawkeye's results as accurate and have no qualms overturning the umpire's call if hawkeye shows the ball missed the line by a couple mm. 'Umpires call' counts for nothing in tennis!
-
For me, I would trust Hawk Eye much more if it was 25% of the ball that must be hitting the stumps. I don't see why that improvement hasn't happened all those years later.
I would also want it to be independently tested against a real pitch in real life, I don't necessarily buy all their claims as a data person. It is the best out there, though!
-
Is England trying out worst case bowling scenarios in this series? How do the Curran brothers get picked again? I had expected one (probably Tom) to be replaced with a genuine quick bowler looking at India's struggles against pace. Instead they rest Wood and bring in Topley.
-
Brilliant start from Toppers
-
Topley has definitely improved his skills ! Great start from him on his return to international cricket. Can’t believe Tom Curran is still in the side. A bowling lineup of archer, wood, topley & rashid could be very exciting
-
You need wickets to curb this Indian side though - you'll never keep their run rate down.
Be a very interesting game for Mo this - I feel like he needs a good one with the ball.
-
The England team should ban these stupid headbands.
-
The England team should ban these stupid headbands.
For what reason??
-
I think we should bring back flairs for bowlers with a headband
-
For what reason??
Because they look stupid. Traditional style or none at all.
-
Because they look stupid. Traditional style or none at all.
Nah, make them mandatory for every player, including the bald ones.
-
What a ridiculous DRS rule that Pant decision! Should have been given 4, instead its a dead ball.
-
22 off the last over from Tom Jedward. Rubbish.
-
Good old Tom Curran. Reckon he’s worse than dernbach
Laughable how much he’s been paid in this years IPL
-
100 up for Rahul. England have him back in form
-
We really need how to throw it all away
-
Cannot understand England going into this without a single genuinely quick bowler.
-
ooooooH - we gonna be chasin' a load. I assume it's a flat pitch?
-
Tom Curran has taken 2 wickets at nearly 200 a piece in his last 9 games. How is he still getting selected?
-
I’m all for this site having a swear filter, but I think it needs to be relaxed when it comes to describing the Jedwards.
-
ooooooH - we gonna be chasin' a load. I assume it's a flat pitch?
I would attribute it more to bad bowling from England. Pretty poor in terms of plans and execution.
-
What a dross way to go 1 down
-
If Laurel & Hardy played cricket, they would have been proud of that runout.
-
Sir Ben Stokes is going to guide us to victory.
-
Not after that sloppy running
-
Sir Ben, what have you done???
-
How on Earth was that not out?!
-
Blimey. Thanks 3rd umpire.
-
Shocking decision that. Nothing behind the line with the shape of his toe
-
think we got lucky there, would have been kicking off if that hadnt happened when we were fielding
-
That was out. lucky very lucky
-
Am amazed Kohli isn’t kicking off!
-
Am amazed Kohli isn’t kicking off!
im sure in the post match interview he'll be asking for a change in the 3rd umpire rules, seems to be his go to when decisions dont go his way.
-
he might be on his best behaviour today, he's only a few hundred more incidents away from getting a slap on the wrists from the ICC
-
This game is a good test of nerves for the teams - getting pressure tested.
-
Jesus Christ Ben, this is brutal
-
This is incredible. Needed 140 off 20, four massive overs and the game is gone.
So lucky to see this generation play ODI cricket
-
Oh ffs Ben
-
Jug avoidance from Sir Ben.
-
I want one of those Ben Stokes bats.
-
Let’s be honest, stokes could hit a six with a cream cracker !
-
need someone calm to see this home now
-
This is ridiculous
-
Live by the sword, die by it. These kind of players can tilt a game that looks dead in a matter of a few overs and when they get so close in a situation that seems too easy for a player of their calibre, they can perish! Thrilling innings by Ben Stokes and Bairstow :o
-
shouldn't criticize JB an stokes for the way they got out, but when we need 3/4 an over why was JB trying to get it done in record time.
the indian lower order is packed with IPL hitters who are much more suited to finishing the innings without having many over left, i dont think we have that in the england side anymore. Morgs and Buttler both still need time to get in whereas the indian players go from ball 1 with no fear. has to be something to do with the amount of t20 they play.
its interesting to see the contrasting styles of innings
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/651dWnJt/Screenshot-20210326-153550-Google.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzytQtv5)
Loooove it 😀
-
7/10 performance from England.
-
What a ridiculous DRS rule that Pant decision! Should have been given 4, instead its a dead ball.
Agree it's daft, but how do you rewrite the rule so the ball isn't dead when someone is given out?
-
Getting rid of DRS would sort it.
-
Getting rid of DRS would sort it.
Then Pant would have been given out for hitting a four.
-
Getting rid of DRS would sort it.
or... You play on at pro level and review it 'once the play is complete'.. that way.. you can be out and all void anyway.. or.. you get the runs etc
FYI.. I haven't seen the slog-a-thon so haven't seen the incident.. Sounds a bit like a slug fest though
-
There's a great video on sky sports cricket YouTube with Nasser explaining drs, worth a watch
-
Then Pant would have been given out for hitting a four.
Oh well.
-
Agree it's daft, but how do you rewrite the rule so the ball isn't dead when someone is given out?
Since lbw can be reviewed, don't give out until batters are done running/ball is in play. Then can be given out/not out and reviewed by either side.
-
Good start from India.
Tom Jedward replaced by Mark Wood.
-
Topley is very average. Why can’t England find a decent left arm seamer, preferably one who is super duper rapid?
-
Mills has his dodgy back so t20 only, Tom Barber is rapid but has some work to do on consistency, whilst George Garton is meant to be rapid but I don’t believe he plays in Sussex white ball sides most of the time. They’re the only left armers I can think of who are rapid but I’m sure people will think of others.
-
Not quite sure what Ball, T Curran or Topley bring to the squad/team over Plunkett. Appreciate he's knocking on, but still a better bowler than any of them imo. Archer and Woakes will replace any tho thankfully.
Setting up a big game here tho India
-
Good test to see if india have the batting to set 350+. They’ve been a 320 team for me.
Looks a road
-
Rashid is so good
-
Some ball by Moen. Surprised himself aswell as Kohli.
-
Kohli out trying to cut a ball that hit leg stump. Obviously the fault of the pitch again.
-
$hit takes wickets. A real village full toss that
-
That is filthy hahahahahahah
-
Bess would have been proud of that one.
-
Pant might be one of the most amazing batsmen I’ve ever seen.
Kudos to India for letting him get on with it and not trying to make him calm it down a bit.
-
Both of these two playing shots now even being 4 down. This game could go either way here, a wicket now and it’s England’s game.
10 overs of these two and India’s game
-
Pant might be one of the most amazing batsmen I’ve ever seen.
Kudos to India for letting him get on with it and not trying to make him calm it down a bit.
So true! Goes to show you how diverse the game of cricket is with so many styles of play which are all unique in their own way.
-
This is dross
-
Filth from Curran. Wood looks shot too - could be carnage if these two last 50 overs
-
Filth from Curran. Wood looks shot too - could be carnage if these two last 50 overs
Jinxed it. Filth got a wicket
-
Jinxed it. Filth got a wicket
Sounds like a pretty decent grab from Buttler.
-
Massive wicket. Can’t see india getting 340+ now
-
India have blown this massively
-
330 should be an easy case under lights. Looks a better wicket than the last game
-
$hit takes wickets - another wicket with a full toss
-
Such a poor performance from England on a flat wicket. 330 was below par especially against this bowling line up
Probably sums up the tour, they’ve had the best of conditions/toss’ in most games
-
I mean, at least we've kept up with the run rate
-
Such a poor performance from England on a flat wicket. 330 was below par especially against this bowling line up
Probably sums up the tour, they’ve had the best of conditions/toss’ in most games
You only come out when India are doing well are you a Manchester City fan too !!! Your rod not the best is it.
-
If nothing else this partnership has been a bit of fun.
-
You only come out when India are doing well are you a Manchester City fan too !!! Your rod not the best is it.
Been around all series mate and 8 years. Can see why people don’t bother with the forum any more :D
If you don’t like the opinion or England’s performance hit the ignore button ;)
-
Not sure Sam is playing this right here
-
Still only 10rpo needed going into the last 4. Curran doing it right for me by taking it deep
Shame no one stuck around with him
-
Should have been a no ball
-
Just popping in to see how @SouthpawMark is doing watching this Sam Curran innings ;)
-
Curran doing it single handily. He can certainly bat
-
Just popping in to see how @SouthpawMark is doing watching this Sam Curran innings ;)
Who's Sam Curran? Any relation to that Sam Jedward character? 😂
-
Side note, Curran swaps his bat and whacks a few boundaries, thus validating everyone on this forum who owns a daft number of bats 😅
-
Side note, Curran swaps his bat and whacks a few boundaries, thus validating everyone on this forum who owns a daft number of bats 😅
Bit village the bat was in a SG bag. Would trigger the forum :D
-
A few of us could be eating our words Sam is the better bet for tests and one day than Tom-taking the game this deep is some effort
-
I can't take this
-
Bit village the bat was in a SG bag. Would trigger the forum :D
I thought SS made adidas bats. Surprised if it was in Sg bag.
-
Can’t catch a cold here
-
Game over now I reckon
-
Credit to Curran with that knock. Poor batting from the rest
-
And that's why Sam Curran gets picked
Superb knock to get is close from nowhere
-
People doubting sam curran this is what he gives to team.
what a match. great efforts from wood in bowling then supporting Sam. I believe they could have taken all singles given wood is not a bad batsman and india wasnt bowling best. but again thats if only scenario ...but glad to watch this kinda match. Curran should be given man of the match
-
Just popping in to see how @SouthpawMark is doing watching this Sam Curran innings ;)
Nice innings - shame he didn’t drag us over the line.
-
I thought England gonna lose by 130,didn't check the score after, I think, 5 down, truly remarkable comeback!
Someone at work was telling that Sam's mother is her friend 😀
Just for chat sake, when I asked if she knows anything about cricket 😃
This innings will definitely increase his confidence in his own ability!
-
Nice innings - shame he didn’t drag us over the line.
Next time he'll, Mark 😀
-
Next time he'll, Mark 😀
True. It has probably secured his place in the side for the next eight years. 🙄
-
True. It has probably secured his place in the side for the next eight years.
Then, he'll be at his prime form
-
Ripper of an innings from Sam Curran. Great to see a contest today and a great learning tour for England. India manage to pull it off again, going to bed happy tonight 😁
-
Livingstone looked decent again, interesting option going forward.